Metagame DPP Little Cup

Coconut

W
is a Top Social Media Contributoris a Community Leaderis a Community Contributoris a Top Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis a Tutor Alumnusis a Senior Staff Member Alumnusis a Battle Simulator Staff Alumnus
LC Leader
DPP

Pokemon Eligibility
In order to be used in LC, a Pokemon must comply with the following criteria:
  • The Pokemon must be able to evolve.
  • The Pokemon must be at its earliest evolution stage.
  • The Pokemon must be at level 5.
Clauses
Little Cup, like other metagames, uses clauses to ensure the most competitive environment. These are:
  • Species Clause: Only one Pokemon from each species may be on a team.
  • Sleep Clause: Only one Pokemon per team can be put to sleep by an opponent at a time.
  • OHKO Clause: Moves that score a guaranteed OHKO on the opponent (Sheer Cold, Horn Drill, Guillotine, and Fissure) are banned.
  • Evasion Clause: Moves that boost evasion (e.g. Double Team and Minimize) are not allowed. Note that moves with an alternative purpose that also incidentally affect evasion (such as Defog and Acupressure) are allowed.
Banned Moves and Abilities
Dragon Rage: This move always inflicts 40 damage on the foe, unless it is a Fairy-type. This move is an absurdity in LC, where no Pokemon can even reach an HP stat above 40.
Sonic Boom: This move always inflicts 20 damage on the foe, unless it is a Ghost-type. Although it is less brutal than Dragon Rage, it is still enough to instantly take out a large portion of the tier.
Swagger: In conjunction with moves such as Thunder Wave, this move could successfully immobilize an opposing Pokemon while dealing rather consistent damage. It was deemed uncompetitive and banned from the tier.
Moody: This ability increases a random stat by 2 and decreases a random stat by 1 at the end of each turn. It is considered too random to be competitively relevant.


Banned Pokemon

Scyther

A moveset consisting of Swords Dance, Aerial Ace, Quick Attack, and Brick Break is almost unstoppable in Little Cup, with no Pokémon in Little Cup able to resist that attack combination. Both Aerial Ace and Quick Attack have their power boosted by 50% due to Technician; the latter attack is vital in stopping Pokémon using Choice Scarf to outspeed it or in stopping slower users of priority attacks. Scyther's pedigree is enhanced by the sheer power of its base stats, boasting both the second highest Attack stat, base 110, and the second highest Speed stat, base 105.

Sneasel

Sneasel can run a similar moveset to Scyther consisting of Swords Dance, Ice Shard, Bite, and Brick Break and be equally difficult to stop. Also akin to Scyther, it boasts a priority attack and an attack combination that no Pokémon resists. A 95 base Attack stat and the highest unboosted Speed in Little Cup with a base stat of 115 make Sneasel all the harder to stop.

Yanma

Already in one of the highest speed tiers, Yanma's Speed Boost ability means that after two turns it will outspeed virtually everything. From there it can wreak havoc with STAB Air Slash or STAB Bug Buzz from a respectable Special Attack stat or simply put to sleep anything it can't kill with Hypnosis.

Tangela

With Sunny Day in effect, Tangela becomes an offensive juggernaut. Its Chlorophyll ability can take its Speed stat to 30, and it can power through anything not resistant to Grass-type attacks with SolarBeam from a 100 base Special Attack stat, which not even Munchlax can stand up to when factoring Life Orb in. Hidden Power Fire and AncientPower provide it with good type coverage, or it can take the option of putting its counters to sleep with Sleep Powder. Moreover, Tangela's bulky defensive nature--in particular its 115 base Defense stat—makes it even harder to take down.

Misdreavus

Misdreavus was the last Pokemon to be banned from Little Cup. After much discussion, it was unanimously voted Uber. Its ability to beat Munchlax and Stunky, its only two "checks," one-on-one as well as being used on over 70% of teams showed that it was clearly too powerful for the tier, and consequently it was removed. STAB Shadow Ball and Hidden Power Fighting afforded it flawless coverage, while Will-O-Wisp allowed it to burn attackers, Shadow Sneak allowed it to revenge kill Choice Scarf-wielding Pokemon and Substitute allowed it to attack with impunity. If anything could be called unstoppable in Little Cup post-Murkrow, it was Misdreavus.

Meditite

Pure Power transforms Meditite into a very potent threat, reaching 28 Attack with no item boosts. Not even Cranidos and its 125 base Attack stat can match that. Hi Jump Kick, Psycho Cut, and Ice Punch gives it all the coverage it needs, and such is the power of Hi Jump Kick is that with Life Orb it can OHKO Bronzor, arguably the best defensive Pokémon in Little Cup, who is not even weak to it. Alternatively, Choice Scarf can be used to remedy its average Speed stat and make it difficult to revenge kill.

Murkrow

Murkrow was allowed in Little Cup for longer than the rest of the banned Pokémon (barring Misdreavus), but in the end it was deemed that its ability to sweep through multiple members of a team without any set-up pushed it over the banned threshold. Sucker Punch really makes Murkrow difficult to take on, bypassing the Speed hierarchy with an 80 Base Power STAB attack with priority running off 91 base Speed (i.e. the second highest speed tier aside excluding Sneasel and Scyther). Pluck complements Sucker Punch and runs off its 85 Base Attack, and hits any Pokémon carrying a berry, such as the Oran Berry, favored by walls, for 60 Base Power (90 Base Power after STAB), disabling and consuming the berry in the process. Dark Pulse hits many physical walls, such as Gligar and Koffing, for plentiful damage and has a 20% flinch rate. Murkrow also has access to Hidden Power, Heat Wave, Calm Mind, and Pursuit. Murkrow was not unstoppable but was deemed too powerful and was also a clear centralizing force.

Tier Specific Bans:

Clamperl is not banned, but the DeepSeaTooth item is. DeepSeaTooth can give Clamperl up to 36 Special Attack, more than a Modest Choice Specs Abra, whilst still retaining freedom to switch attacks. Surf, Ice Beam, and Hidden Power Electric or Hidden Power Grass provide good coverage, and not even Munchlax, the Pokémon widely considered to be the best Special wall in Little Cup, can switch in on Surf, being 2HKOed, even taking Oran Berry into account. Its low Speed is a problem but if it is Baton Passed an Agility then it will be incredibly dominant over an opponent's team. Without DeepSeaTooth, however, Clamperl is much more manageable.

The Most Effective Items in DPP Little Cup

Choice Scarf
Choice Scarf is possibly the most common item in the metagame. The ability to increase your Speed 50% is incredibly useful, as anything that normally maxes out at 14 Speed has the potential to outspeed every single Pokémon not wearing a Choice Scarf (the highest obtainable un-boosted Speed is 20). Starters, sweepers, and revenge killers are notorious for using Choice Scarves, and usually the only way to beat a Choice Scarf user is with priority, a Focus Sash, or simply by a faster Choice Scarf user. Cranidos and Remoraid (with Hustle) make great Choice Scarf users with their monstrous Attack stats and mediocre Speed. Pokémon such as Magby are used with Choice Scarves to revenge kill Pokémon in the rain or sun, and slower Choice Scarf users.

Damp Rock / Heat Rock / Light Clay
Little Cup is fast-paced enough that by the time you use Rain Dance/Sunny Day and switch to a sweeper, only three turns are left, and it's easy for your opponent to stall you out. As such, an extra three turns is incredibly useful, giving you a total of six. Light Clay is similar, because with both screens many Pokémon such as Gligar can set up and sweep or pass quite easily due to natural bulk, but only get 3 turns without Light Clay. Light Clay is often used with Pokémon such as Natu, or even on the odd Abra. All of these items are quite common on Bronzor.

Focus Sash
A great Little Cup item that pops up quite often. In OU it is used on frail but powerful Pokémon like Rampardos that could manage to get a Rock Polish in. In LC, it's abused by similar Pokémon, but for the purpose of killing fast Pokémon, but still used to get the set-up move most of the time. There are much more Pokémon in LC than OU that bear Rampardos's characteristics, such as Dratini. This item is also used by Pokémon such as Diglett to revenge kill Pokémon using Choice Scarf. Pokémon can also use Focus Sash to lead, and pretty much any Pokémon can be a usable lead as long as it has a Focus Sash, though Pokémon who have a decent attack stat and are fast or have priority generally do it better than others because they beat other Focus Sash leads. This allows the Pokémon to survive a hit and KO back. Beware of Stealth Rock, which is becoming very common to break the Focus Sashes of Pokémon so that they can't successfully revenge kill sweepers.

Liechi / Petaya / Salac Berry
The "pinch" berries are used mainly for those Pokémon with outstanding Attack (or Special Attack) / Speed, but which lack the stat to use the naturally strong stat with. A good example would be Substitute + Petaya Drifloon, which not only appreciates the boost to its mediocre Special Attack, but gets an added kick from Unburden.

Life Orb
Is often used on sweepers with the purpose of maximizing type coverage. The Pokémon that use Life Orb are generally fast, strong, have great coverage, or have a powerful priority move to make revenge killing quite difficult. The most common pure attacking sweepers with Life Orb are Elekid, followed by Magby. The mixed priority sweepers who use Life Orb effectively as well include Houndour and Croagunk. This item is as popular as Choice Scarf due to one of the best ways of countering a Choice Scarf Pokémon is with a Life Orb boosted priority attack.

Lum Berry
Little Cup is slightly more diversified in its metagame than OU is; that is, you'll see a lot more weather teams, and slightly more Trick Room teams. Because some of the common LC leads use Hypnosis or a lesser status move, teams that rely on set-up will often lead with a Lum Berry Pokémon to ensure they get the turn they need. Leads like Houndour are also common with Lum Berry because of their ability to trap and KO Gastly, another common lead. Pokémon that lead with an Agility, followed by Baton Pass strategy (such as Aipom) are also commonly found using Lum Berry.

Oran Berry
The other most common item in LC. If you can't think of a good item to put on your Pokémon, use Oran Berry. While 10 HP was next to nothing in standard, for many LC Pokémon, 10 HP is 50% of their health. Oran Berry is generally seen on walls, stat-uppers, and utility Pokémon.

Toxic / Flame Orb
Pokémon that use the ability Guts or Quick Feet can take advantage of status orbs, because it will increase their Attack or Speed respectively, giving an advantage of a Choice Band or Choice Scarf, but with the ability to change attacks, and use an 140 base power Facade. Pokémon such as Taillow and Teddiursa use these items effectively. Flame Orb does not work with Quick Feet well, though, as it still reduces the Attack of the Pokémon. Shroomish can also use the Toxic Orb with its Poison Heal ability.

Items that are good in OU but not in Little Cup

Leftovers

Due to the fact that Leftovers heal only a relatively small percentage of your health per turn, it would take 5-10 turns for the majority of Pokémon to achieve the healing powers that one Oran Berry will have in a single use. Therefore, Oran Berry is a much better choice in Little Cup. There are a few exceptions, though. One exception to this is Munchlax with Protect, as it can out heal an Oran Berry after 4 or 5 turns, which is easy to do with Protect. Another is Sub-Seed Pokémon, who out heal Oran in around two turns with Leech Seed + Leftovers + Protect.

Expert Belt
Generally used on Pokémon that don't like taking recoil damage. Since the only Pokémon that rely on having lots of type coverage are fast sweepers that don't like getting hit anyway, some Life Orb recoil doesn't affect them as badly. Also, with 19 HP, Pokémon only lose about 6% of their health, which isn't nearly as much of an impact in LC than 10% in standard is. To summarize, Life Orb is always better than Expert Belt.

The Right Item for your Pokémon

It can be difficult to decide what the correct item to assign your Pokémon is. This section will break down some general guidelines regarding the qualities a specific Pokémon should have for each item.

Choice Scarf
14 Unboosted Speed

This is extremely important when considering using a Choice Scarf. Choice Scarf gives a multiplier boost of 1.5x to Speed, so to outspeed any non-Choice Scarf Pokémon would require an unboosted 14 (14*1.5=21).

Destructive Power
Choice Scarf Pokémon will generally want pretty high attack stats and a versatile movepool. Apply the principles for the other Choice items, but instead reverse (Special) Attack and Speed. Pokémon such as Cranidos or Remoraid have very high Attack stats, but are too slow to really use it. This is where Choice Scarf comes in; it allows these Pokémon to boost their Speed and use their hard hitting attacks while outspeeding almost every Pokémon in the metagame, except for those faster Pokémon such as Magby who also use Choice Scarf to revenge kill threats like the previously mentioned Cranidos.

Life Orb

High Attack Stat(s)

As you probably could have guessed, Life Orb is used by either powerful mixed attackers, late game sweepers, and Pokémon with powerful priority attacks. Elekid is an excellent example, being strong and fast enough to do serious damage, but having low enough defenses and HP that it would not feel comfortable if a counter switched in. As such, it needs a varied movepool. Pokémon like Houndour use this well, because it can take out all slower Pokémon with a Life Orb boosted Fire Blast, and take out the frail, faster Pokémon with a Life Orb boosted Sucker Punch.

19 HP
The mechanics of Life Orb take away 10% of your health with each successful attack, but the damage is rounded down. So 10% of 20 HP is 2 HP per turn, but 10% of 19 is only 1.9. This is rounded down, so you only take 1 point of damage. Good Life Orb users are generally the ones that can manipulate their health to hit that magic number. This is not required, however; it just allows certain Pokémon to keep their health higher and be less vulnerable to revenge killers.

Focus Sash
A Good set-up Pokémon

Pokémon that run Focus Sash should be those that are too frail to reliably increase their stats. However, after the boost, frail stats shouldn't matter, as the Pokémon should in theory be able to sweep. Think of Cranidos or Dratini. They have horrible HP and defenses, but high Attack (or move power) and decent Speed. After a Rock Polish or Agility, they should be able to reliably sweep any team, barring priority attacks. This can also include Pokémon that lead, who want to use Stealth Rock first and then live to contribute to the battle later.

Revenge Killing Power
Pokémon that are not either a set-up Pokémon with frail defenses or a Counter / Mirror Coat user need to have this aspect to take advantage of a Focus Sash. Pokémon that have trapping abilities, such as Diglett or Trapinch, or trapping moves, such as Pursuit, are good with Focus Sash to make sure your opponent will not switch out. Your Pokémon can also be slower, but this means it needs to hit hard because it only has one chance to KO your opponent's Pokémon. Sending a Pokémon equipped with Focus Sash will often put your opponent between a rock and a hard place. On one hand, your opponent can switch out and have to take two attacks from your Pokémon, but on the other hand, if they stay in, they lose their Pokémon.

Counter / Mirror Coat
Counter or Mirror Coat is not a requirement for a Focus Sash user, but it is an excellent strategy. The idea is to bring the Pokémon with Focus Sash into a Pokémon that will easily knock it out. The opposing Pokémon should attack, you survive, and reflect the attack right back. This is rather gimmicky, however, and makes your Pokémon rather useless after it hopefully takes out one Pokémon.
A Pokémon can also generally lead quite well when it is equipped with Focus Sash. It allows a Pokémon to nearly always beat another Pokémon without Focus Sash, but there are no requirements for this. Generally faster Pokémon or Pokémon with priority will do this better.

Oran Berry

There aren't any specific requirements for an Oran Berry user. Usually the item is put on walls to add to their staying power, but this isn't necessary one bit. I personally run a Belly Drum Poliwag with an Oran Berry to heal the damage. Just keep several things in mind about the item itself.
Many Pokémon such as Natu and Paras carry the attack Pluck or Bug Bite (respectively) to deal with the bulky Pokémon who switch in with Oran Berry. This is something to keep in mind when switching Bronzor into any of these two Pokémon.

Why Oran Berry over Sitrus Berry?
Sitrus Berry is a better choice when playing competitive OU, because 25% recovery is much more useful than a measly 10 HP. But, in Little Cup, 10 HP will always be more than what 25% would give you. For Sitrus Berry to be as effective as Oran, you'd need a Pokémon with 40 HP, of which there are none.

Liechi / Petaya / Salac Berry

Lacks a Necessary Stat

The "pinch Berries," as they are called, are a bit trickier to use than other items: not only do you not get their effect right away, you have to be very low of health for them to activate. For the downsides to be worth it, your Pokémon has to have a need for a particular stat. Something like Belly Drum Poliwag is a good example. One hit and a Belly Drum, and your berry will activate. The boost will make you faster than anything without high Speed and a Choice Scarf. And with the Attack increase from Belly Drum, you'll be a force to be reckoned with.
 

Coconut

W
is a Top Social Media Contributoris a Community Leaderis a Community Contributoris a Top Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis a Tutor Alumnusis a Senior Staff Member Alumnusis a Battle Simulator Staff Alumnus
LC Leader
DPP Little Cup Viability Rankings (Pokemon are listed alphabetically)

S-Rank
Reserved for Pokemon that are amazing in the DPP LC metagame. These Pokemon are almost always able to perform a variety of roles effectively, or can just do one extremely well. Their use has very little risk involved and high reward exerted.

Gligar
Munchlax

A-rank

Reserved for Pokemon that are outstanding in the DPP LC metagame and can sweep, wall, or support the majority of the tier. These Pokemon do not require much support to be used effectively and have few flaws that can be overlooked when compared to their outstanding traits.

High A rank

Bronzor
Croagunk
Elekid
Gastly
Machop
Snover
Wynaut

Low A Rank

Chinchou
Dratini
Drifloon
Duskull
Glameow
Houndour
Kabuto
Mankey
Mantyke
Slowpoke
Stunky
Taillow

B-Rank
Reserved for Pokemon who are great in the DPP LC metagame, but have notable flaws that affect how they function in the tier. Their positive traits still outshine their negatives, but they require a bit more team support to bring out their full potential.

High B Rank

Aipom
Aron
Bagon
Bellsprout
Carvanha
Chimchar
Diglett
Doduo
Exeggcute
Geodude
Horsea
Krabby
Magby
Magnemite
Meowth
Oddish
Omanyte
Phanpy
Ponyta
Porygon
Staryu
Totodile
Voltorb
Wailmer

Low B Rank

Abra
Anorith
Barboach
Bonsly
Buizel
Buneary
Cacnea
Clamperl
Cubone
Cyndaquil
Eevee
Ekans
Goldeen
Grimer
Hippopotas
Koffing
Larvitar
Lileep
Makuhita
Natu
Paras
Pineco
Poliwag
Rattata
Seel
Shroomish
Squirtle
Swinub
Teddiursa
Trapinch
Zigzagoon

C-rank
Reserved for Pokemon that have notable niches in the DPP LC metagame, but have just as notable flaws that prevent them from being effective. Pokemon in the C tier often require significant support to be effective in DPP LC, and face a large amount of competition from the more commonly used Pokemon.

Baltoy
Bulbasaur
Charmander
Corphish
Cranidos
Drowzee
Gible
Growlithe
Lickitung
Numel
Onix
Nidoran M
Psyduck
Remoraid
Sandshrew
Shellos
Shieldon
Shupett
Snorunt
Snubbull
Spheal
Spoink
Starly
Tentacool
Wingull
Piplup

D-Rank
Reserved for everything else that is not worth using in DPP LC.
 
I think that hypnosis is an interesting question considering how banning the move might go against precedent yet seems so appealing in the meta. Considering the number of mons capable of using it and how devastating it can be I think it’s definitelt problematic.

I don’t feel the same way about gothita though. I was very much on the fence about the banning of sand as though i usually am against meddling with past metas sand was undeniably unhealthy. I dont think that gothita is anywhere near as unhealthy as sand or hypnosis, certainly not enough to warrant a suspect as past gen suspects should be used sparingly in my opinion. Scarf gothita was the main set used during oras and was not generally seen as ban worthy; the main concern now seems to be the CM rest set. While this set was certainly unhealthy in SM I believe that using it brings with it significant matchup risks in ORAS and significant momentum implications. Considering how offensive many team archetypes can be, CM goth can often find itself very weak against these archetypes, especially fletch + dig + zig/snivy/shell games. Additionally considering the strength of pawniard it’s inability to threaten it if it doubles in or revenges is a significant weakness.
I think that a lot of the weakness of goth comes much more in practice than on paper. As someone who has played oras in the past 2 LCPLs after CM rest was “discovered” in play it suffers from these aforementioned issues too much to warrant its use on many teams. You can actually see this very visibly in the usage stats of oras 2 years ago: the usage of gothita was massive in the first couple weeks as this was directly following the banning of goth in SM. As the tour went on it became more clear, I think, where the metas differed, as usage of goth plummeted. If this turns into an actual debate I can cite replays of LCPL but if I remember correctly this was talked about 2 years ago by some but decided against.
 

tcr

sage of six tabs
is a Tutor Alumnusis a Team Rater Alumnusis a Smogon Discord Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus
I would like Hypnosis to be looked at in older generations of LC. I find Hypnosis to be a pretty dumb move that on paper seems garbage. A 60% accurate move that all it does is cause sleep seems like it wouldn't really be that great, but in older generations, specifically DPP and BW, I find it to be a problem. Despite its nigh literal 50/50 nature, Hypnosis has found extensive usage in tournament games, namely for DPP but also in BW. This prolific use signals to me that something is wrong, and what seems wrong to me is the mechanic itself. For those who don't know, in Gen 4 Sleep has a minimum of 1 turns, maximum of 4 turns, while in Gen 5 the minimum is 1 turn, maximum of 3 turns, but you reset your sleep counter upon switching out (meaning that you could go with two turns of sleep once, switch out, and get 3 extra turns next time that Pokemon is in). You might be wondering, "why is he railing about only Hypnosis? Shouldn't Spore and Sleep Powder fall under this as well?" Sleep Powder and Spore have a much more specialized group of individuals who can use them, most of which just simply aren't threats at all in a metagame.

For example, in Gen 4 Hypnosis' spread is:
Bronzor, Chingling, Drifloon, Drowzee, Exeggcute, Feebas, Gastly, Glameow, Hoothoot, Meowth, Mime Jr., Poliwag, Ponyta, Psyduck, Ralts, Vulpix, Zubat

Of these, the most prolific users are Bronzor, Drifloon, Gastly, Glameow, Meowth, Poliwag, and Ponyta, making it around 8 Pokemon of various common usage (Gastly and Bronzor being two that are fairly high usage).

In Gen 5 Hypnosis' spread is similar, with the addition of Pidove, Patrat, and Munna. The notable Pokemon are Bronzor, Drifloon, Gastly, and Ponyta.

For reference, in Gen 4 Sleep Powder's spread is:
Bellsprout, Budew, Bulbasaur, Exeggcute, Hoppip, Oddish, Venonat

Of these, Bellsprout and Venonat are the most viable with none of the others being used at all.

In Gen 5 Sleep Powder's spread is similar, with the addition of Petilil. Of these, only Venonat is viable as a Compoundeyes BP Pokemon.

In Gen 4 Spore's spread is: Shroomish and Paras. Paras is the only one of which is 'viable' and to my knowledge it has been used on exactly 1 team: alongside Wynaut as a Pursuit trapper, which is an incredibly insane niche over the course of 4+ years.

In Gen 5 Spore's spread increased by 1 with the addition of Foongus. Foongus is the most viable out of all of these Pokemon (with the noted exception of Gen 4 Gastly). Foongus has somewhat middling usage in BW LC, having only 9 games played in LCWC (alongside things like Riolu and Slowpoke).

Hypnosis' broad application to Pokemon and the crippling nature of Sleep means that any Pokemon that gets it can often find itself just slotting Hypnosis in the 4th slot (Poliwag, with Belly+Hypnosis can find itself its own niche). In Gen 4 there are several Pokemon that are literally solely used so they can Sleep the opposing team's lead, such as Glameow, Meowth, Drifloon and Gastly leads. Gen 5 has less usage of Hypnosis however there are still applications of it, notably in Drifloon, Gastly, and Bronzor.

To me, I find this problematic. Many games are won or lost depending on whether the opponent hit their Hypnosis, and that players feel a need to be incentivized to use a 60% accurate move seems wrong to me. It is clear to me that Sleep itself is the problem, as many players feel that it is an incredibly strong mechanic. However I think that getting rid of Sleep in some uber Sleep clause would be the wrong way to go about it, because people aren't going out of their way to use things like Paras in gen 5 just because it gets Spore. Similarly in Gen 4. Hypnosis however, finds itself on many LC Pokemon and can easily be slotted on a 4th move to give an otherwise bad Pokemon relevancy (Glameow??) It's accuracy lends itself to coinflips on the spectator side, taking player skill out of the equation and referring more to dumb RNG, which negatively impacts tour games in LCWC and LCPL (or any other oldgen tour) while just being downright unfun to watch happen. How many times have you heard "DPP LC is a coinflip metagame?" I would find it incredibly hard to believe that the culture of Hypnosis has not led to at least some perceptions being shaped into a coinflip, RNG based metagame.

I think that when tour games are impacted and quality of matches drops that the issue should be looked at. It's clear that Sleep is not the problem because no one's out there complaining about Spore, Foongus is not on every team, Paras is not on every team, and the problem is solely isolated onto Hypnosis. Below are some tour games I've located where Hypnosis played an extreme role into the outcome of the game:

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen4lc-829553711
Melon v Alkione Week 1 LCWC
In this match Alkione loses two pokemon to Hypnosis Ponyta, gets unfortunate sleep turns, allowing Sub Ponyta to wreak havoc on the team. Had Ponyta missed the Hypnosis, the outcome of the game would have been totally different, allowing Munchlax to actually be a factor in the game preventing the Chinchou from doing much.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen5lc-407331
Vileman v Finchinator
Here you see the absolute garbage shit that is Drifloon, 1v1ing Stunky (a Pursuit trapper who should beat it any day) while also crippling Slowpoke. Yeah Finchinator lost because he was a garbage zf Riolu set and got crit on Magnemite (min speed riolu ;; jk love you zf) but he basically just relied on RNG for a solid 4-5 turns, and almost got away with it, and manipulating RNG like that to work in your favor is hardly favoring the better player (making zero comments on the skills of either player involved).

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen4lc-838783617
Fran v Mikaav
Here you see fishing for Hypnosis, and the Hypnosis Sleep on Duskull allows Mantyke to get several free turns to set up Rain Dance and get 3 free turns on Duskull that would have allowed for easy chip on Mantyke, which would potentially change the outcome to allow Scarf Gligar to OHKO Chinchou and win the game.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen5lc-408364
Serene v Neomon
Here you see an example of Hypno fishing and RNG manipulation working out not in favor of the Hypno user, and yet 5+ turns of straight RNG still happen and is deemed "the optimal play."

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen4lc-841224643
Eternal Spirit v Alkione
Here you see the essential sacking of Munchlax on several Pokemon that it's supposed to "counter" such as Porygon and Duskull (as the premier special wall of the tier). Munchlax leaving gave Alkione a pretty hefty advantage for Porygon to just bop half of ES' team, altho some good predicts with Porygon also helpd to do that.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen4lc-845848328
Alkione v Heysup
Another turn where the "optimal play" was to just fish for a Hypno a second time creating "quality" gameplay from a spectator side.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen5lc-423537
star v fitzy
Here is a recent example of gen 5 Sleep mechanics coming in pretty shittily, preventing Ferroseed from getting Stealth Rock up to break Gastly's Sash while also preventing Ferroseed from doing the most minor of chip, resulting in Star losing the game. Banking the outcome of a game on 60% (without factoring in Sleep turns) is very very lame.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen5lc-737113831
tcr v fitzy
fishing for double hypnosis to win, not gonna say anything else because the bias is personal here.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen4lc-739156189
eseque vs raseri
another hypnosis riddled game with two hypnosis having chances to hit that manipulated the outcome of the game (hypnosis on croagunk was way more impactful than hypnosis on Munchlax but both are egregious abuse of the mechanic)

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen4lc-370609
imanalt vs nails
Hypnosis lead Gastly plus maximum sleep turns comes in clutch again to win the game

Anyway, at this point I've grown very tired from watching every single lcpl / lcwc replay, but if you wanted to actually look through and count the usages (there were FAR more games I did not add and I only linked the replays that stuck out the most to me), you would find that Hypnosis is almost present on every single team (excluding most Heysup teams). To me this screams that there is something wrong with either Sleep, Hypnosis, or like Gastly (lol). There are many cases of abused Sleep turns turning into won games, and the risk vs reward for a 60% accuracy just doesn't seem to be there at all, as clearly a great many players use it, abuse it. I think that the 50s it forces in these oldgens is incredibly unhealthy to the playability of the tiers. I, as a spectator, find it incredibly stupid when I just see Hypnosis fishing after Hypnosis fishing in DPP games, a tier I find incredibly fun and interesting, and while this is in part due to a lack of great depth in the tier (with Heysup honestly being the only dude to really use other strategies rather than a Hypno balance squad), I think that new players feel they are forced into these plays and that the oldgen tiers simply don't have the novelty to really progress as a meta. I think that the coinflip nature of Hypnosis is akin to some of the issues that Wingull had, in the amount of chance and RNG that it forces into a metagame, and in no way do I find that a healthy concept. I would not necessarily mind Sleep itself being suspected, but I feel that Sleep is a mechanic in BW that helps to define the tier (I do not speak for defining DPP at all and would rather other more experienced players to give their voice), and that if we were to ban Sleep itself then we might as well also ban things like Freezes, and at that point its trying too hard to eliminate RNG as a concept (which is something the games shouldnt do as they are accurately trying to simulate the cartridges). I feel that Spore has a total of 1 viable Pokemon (lol if you still think Shroomish is viable, coming from the dude who uses shit like Buizel), and Sleep Powder simply doesn't have the usage to warrant it being lumped in, although if in a hypothetical Hypno was banned and the DPP meta just shifted to Paras on every team or Sleep Powder Bulbasaur on every team then I would definitely be open to revisiting the idea of a Sleep suspect.

edit: I focused mostly on DPP mechanics but I would not mind extending it to BW. There are far less games involving Hypnosis in BW than DPP but due to the sleep mechanics and certain abuse that has changed outcomes of games (namely on Pokemon like Drifloon that have the potential to take out 2-3 Pokemon a game), I think that it could be looked at, or failling the move suspect an actual Sleep suspect.

Anyway, those are my thoguhts, what are your guys' opinions on Sleep in oldgens, and specifically Hypnosis?
 
Last edited:

Melon

WWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWW
Explicit Notice: The DPP LC Council is currently discussing a potential Hypnosis ban and will voting in the coming days. If you have anything you want to say regarding this, speak now or forever hold your peace. This thread or the Old Gens section in the LC Discord are the best places to do this.

This is a response to TCR’s Hypnosis post, specifically the DPP portion. Additionally, for the sake of discourse I will be defending Hypno even though I personally am undecided on my opinions on the move.

You might be wondering, "why is he railing about only Hypnosis? Shouldn't Spore and Sleep Powder fall under this as well?" Sleep Powder and Spore have a much more specialized group of individuals who can use them, most of which just simply aren't threats at all in a metagame.

For example, in Gen 4 Hypnosis' spread is:
Bronzor, Chingling, Drifloon, Drowzee, Exeggcute, Feebas, Gastly, Glameow, Hoothoot, Meowth, Mime Jr., Poliwag, Ponyta, Psyduck, Ralts, Vulpix, Zubat

Of these, the most prolific users are Bronzor, Drifloon, Gastly, Glameow, Meowth, Poliwag, and Ponyta, making it around 8 Pokemon of various common usage (Gastly and Bronzor being two that are fairly high usage).
When it comes to Hypno usage, it has only been revealed on a total of four different Pokemon in the latest LCPL and LCWC. These Pokemon are Gastly, Ponyta, Glameow, and Meowth (ordered by usage). These should be the only four Pokemon considered, as they are the only relevant users of the move. Additionally, these four can be rather easily grouped into two different categories of Hypno users, which are Hypno Leads (Glameow, Meowth, and Lead Gastly) and Substitute Abusers (Oran Gastly and Oran Ponyta). I'll use these categories later. And yes, I do understand the point you’re attempting to get across here. Hypno is a fairly widespread move in comparison to other sleep-inducing moves.

Hypnosis' broad application to Pokemon and the crippling nature of Sleep means that any Pokemon that gets it can often find itself just slotting Hypnosis in the 4th slot (Poliwag, with Belly+Hypnosis can find itself its own niche). In Gen 4 there are several Pokemon that are literally solely used so they can Sleep the opposing team's lead, such as Glameow, Meowth, Drifloon and Gastly leads.
I won’t even start on the first part of this paragraph, but claiming that there are multiple leads used for the sole purpose of clicking Hypnosis turn 1 and praying to hit is just completely wrong. All four of the leads you accuse of doing this have great uses in the lead slot outside of Hypno, with Glameow and Meowth having access to Fake Out and 19 speed, making them annoying as shit to face. Drifloon and Gastly have an incredible amount of great options to pick from and I often find myself forgoing Hypno on Lead Gastly in favor of other more consistent options to start a game with.

Many games are won or lost depending on whether the opponent hit their Hypnosis, and that players feel a need to be incentivized to use a 60% accurate move seems wrong to me. It is clear to me that Sleep itself is the problem, as many players feel that it is an incredibly strong mechanic.
I think a large part of the reason many games seem to come down to a Hypnosis hitting or missing is because lots of players have fairly bad plans for dealing with it actually hitting, letting it be significantly stronger than it needs to be. Sleep appears to be strong because for some reason people view a Munchlax not using Sleep Talk as the prime Gastly check when Munchlax barely beats an Oran Gastly when it doesn't click Hypno. Sleep is going to appear insanely strong if you're doing next to nothing to mitigate its power via teambuilding and playing. Also, nobody should feel incentivized to use Hypnosis as every Pokemon that learns it can be used for their intended purpose just fine without resorting to using Hypno, something that I personally have been doing quite a bit more recently.

Hypnosis however, finds itself on many LC Pokemon and can easily be slotted on a 4th move to give an otherwise bad Pokemon relevancy (Glameow??)
Glameow is not a bad option as a lead regardless of if it uses Hypno, and you trying to indicate that it would be bad is a stupid and uninformed opinion. The only Pokemon that sees usage right now that would potentially see its usage hindered in the event of a Hypno ban is Ponyta, and that is only because many people wrongly see Pony as some sort of Hypnosis spam Mon and ignore its important traits such as its fantastic defensive typing to check many popular Mons, its incredible speed tier to beat Pokemon that Houndour can't, and its ability to consistently require different switch-ins than Houndour does.

It's accuracy lends itself to coinflips on the spectator side, taking player skill out of the equation and referring more to dumb RNG, which negatively impacts tour games in LCWC and LCPL (or any other oldgen tour) while just being downright unfun to watch happen. How many times have you heard "DPP LC is a coinflip metagame?" I would find it incredibly hard to believe that the culture of Hypnosis has not led to at least some perceptions being shaped into a coinflip, RNG based metagame.
If Hypno's accuracy lends itself to coinflips on the spectator side: who gives a shit, they're not the ones playing the game. From a player point of view, I think Nails covers the idea of it being "just RNG" quite well when he writes:

"yeah dpp lc tends to not have 100% reliable plays ever. pokemon as a whole, honestly. i think there's a lot of skill in balancing the risk/reward of different lines of play, and covering different options your opponent could take wrt sleep both in game and in prep. pokemon starts out as an even game where both people have access to exactly the same options, and if not sleep turns games would be decided by matchup, or speed ties, or damage rolls, or correctly calling switches (which is not at all under control of the player and imo is effectively rg/variance)."

The skill obviously doesn't come in hitting the move, it comes in creating opportunities where the move can be safely used, or finding opportunities where you can get the best use of it, or strategically getting your Sleep Talk Mon in on a Hypno, or any other countless amount of scenarios. DPP LC being a "coinflip metagame" is literally a joke, and those who seriously think that either can't play the meta at a respectable level or have some weird personal grudge against it.

After this, you go into looking at a series or replays and analyzing how Hypnosis lowered the match quality of each, so lets take a look.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen4lc-829553711
Melon v Alkione Week 1 LCWC
In this match Alkione loses two pokemon to Hypnosis Ponyta, gets unfortunate sleep turns, allowing Sub Ponyta to wreak havoc on the team. Had Ponyta missed the Hypnosis, the outcome of the game would have been totally different, allowing Munchlax to actually be a factor in the game preventing the Chinchou from doing much.
While God Alkione does get put into a poor position due to me landing a Hypno, I want you to really take a look at his team. The way his team is designed there is incredibly limited purposeful counterplay to combat this. His initial reaction is to switch to his Specially Defensive Munchlax that doesn't carry Sleep Talk and hope to wake up. He has nothing to switch to after Munchlax has been slept that can be expected to stand up to Ponyta reasonably, and his team isn't designed in such a way to be able to out-pressure me very effectively. Essentially, this is a case of someone just not being ready for a Mon, not a case of some gigantic Hypnosis swing.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen4lc-838783617
Fran v Mikaav
Here you see fishing for Hypnosis, and the Hypnosis Sleep on Duskull allows Mantyke to get several free turns to set up Rain Dance and get 3 free turns on Duskull that would have allowed for easy chip on Mantyke, which would potentially change the outcome to allow Scarf Gligar to OHKO Chinchou and win the game.
While this can be viewed as just brain-dead Hypno fishing, Mikaav makes a decent play to set up his free turn and weighs his options before clicking Hypno. Also, I'm confident that this did not effect the outcome of the game, but it was his best play regardless.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen4lc-841224643
Eternal Spirit v Alkione
Here you see the essential sacking of Munchlax on several Pokemon that it's supposed to "counter" such as Porygon and Duskull (as the premier special wall of the tier). Munchlax leaving gave Alkione a pretty hefty advantage for Porygon to just bop half of ES' team, altho some good predicts with Porygon also helpd to do that.
ES's first reaction against a quite obviously sash Gastly that is clicking Hypno is to switch to his Sleep Talkless PhysDef Munchlax. That is rarely going to go well for you. He basically does the right thing by switching out and spreading the job among multiple Mons, but between a lack of built-in countermeasures and absolutely atrocious luck throughout the game I think this replay gives a bit of a false impression on how strong Hypno typically is.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen4lc-845848328
Alkione v Heysup
Another turn where the "optimal play" was to just fish for a Hypno a second time creating "quality" gameplay from a spectator side.
Again, I don't think anybody really give a shit how it looks from the spectator side, especially for a meta as niche as this one. Hypnosis was used basically twice in this game, the lead Hypno being significantly more impactful (and something I'll touch upon more later). The second time it's used I don't see an issue with. Lord Alkione makes multiple attempts to get his Gastly back in safely, does it, and then weighs his options and pulls the trigger.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen4lc-739156189
eseque vs raseri
another hypnosis riddled game with two hypnosis having chances to hit that manipulated the outcome of the game (hypnosis on croagunk was way more impactful than hypnosis on Munchlax but both are egregious abuse of the mechanic)
Ah, an LCPL Eseque replay, pullin' out all the stops. Raseri's initial Hypno was handled quite poorly by Eseque, with the second one being a decent example of not completely dogshit counterplay.

Eseque's Hypno on Gunk is probably the most egregious example you can give, as last ditch late game Hypno usage is definitely the best argument you can use to ban Hypno. This one is honestly pretty bad, and should be the basis of the pro-ban argument.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen4lc-370609
imanalt vs nails
Hypnosis lead Gastly plus maximum sleep turns comes in clutch again to win the game
While Hypno looks beyond insane in this replay, and is definitely a good example of how it can look when seemingly everything goes one persons way, imanalt's counter to Hypnosis Gastly was literally waking up. Even if something is absolutely out-of-this-world unfair like people view Hypno, not even attempting to have counterplay to it is not how you're going to beat it, and if anything makes it very apparent that you're not even trying to beat the shit you're complaining about.

Anyway, at this point I've grown very tired from watching every single lcpl / lcwc replay, but if you wanted to actually look through and count the usages (there were FAR more games I did not add and I only linked the replays that stuck out the most to me), you would find that Hypnosis is almost present on every single team (excluding most Heysup teams). To me this screams that there is something wrong with either Sleep, Hypnosis, or like Gastly (lol).
I actually did just that. In the 64 games that were completed between LCWC and the latest LCPL, Hypnosis was used in 35 of those games, typically only being used by one Mon on one of the two teams. This boils down to Hypnosis being revealed on approximately slightly below 30% of all DPP LC teams. However, I only cataloged Hypno when it was actually revealed, so the actual percentage is likely somewhat higher, but saying that it "is almost present on every single team" is just factually incorrect. Coming back to the two different categories of Hypno users, I think they allow Hypno usage to be understood significantly easier. Hypno Leads are used deliberately and are often focal points of the team they are being used on. Alternatively, Substitute Abusers are NOT typically focal points of the team they are on but are added for additional offensive pressure, and more importantly defensive utility. The important thing about this distinction is that Substitute Abusers are WILDLY more common than Hypno Leads. What I'm attempting to convey here is that while Hypno's usage may seem pretty impressive, it's usage is not coming from desire to spam this godly move or something, but it's coming from a need to use the Mons that just happen to have good sets to abuse the move with. Gastly is one of three good ghost-types that offer any defensive utility and Ponyta is one of only two good fire-types to offer defensive utility. These are Mons that have niches to fill outside of being Hypnosis abusers.

There are many cases of abused Sleep turns turning into won games, and the risk vs reward for a 60% accuracy just doesn't seem to be there at all, as clearly a great many players use it, abuse it. I think that the 50s it forces in these oldgens is incredibly unhealthy to the playability of the tiers. I, as a spectator, find it incredibly stupid when I just see Hypnosis fishing after Hypnosis fishing in DPP games, a tier I find incredibly fun and interesting, and while this is in part due to a lack of great depth in the tier (with Heysup honestly being the only dude to really use other strategies rather than a Hypno balance squad), I think that new players feel they are forced into these plays and that the oldgen tiers simply don't have the novelty to really progress as a meta.
Hypnosis can be argued to do many things to DPP, but I don't think adding 50/50s is exactly what it's known for. Hypno usage is incredibly telegraphed and with proper measures implemented into your teams should be manageable in the vast majority of situations. The real issue comes in when the situation is not one of the vast majority, and the correct play is to click and pray. Also, if spectators find Hypnosis to be incredibly stupid, it's either because the way the players are playing is actually making it stupid or because the spectators bitching about it don't actually understand how to play DPP LC and don't get what's going on. Sometimes it's the former that's the issue, but holy shit is it usually the latter.

Also we get it, you love Heysup, let's get through this.

Anyway, those are my thoguhts, what are your guys' opinions on Sleep in oldgens, and specifically Hypnosis?
Honestly, I'm still unsure of what I think. As a person I am always quick to defend the side in an argument that leads to no change, as I find it easier to attempt to rechange something rather than change something and then change it back later. As a whole, Hypnosis definitely inserts plenty of chance into an average game, but that is really what we're playing here. We're playing a game of minimizing and maximizing chances to get the result we want, but ultimately we're rarely if ever completely in control. I think the biggest issues with Hypnosis currently are Hypnosis Leads and late game all-or-nothing, win-if-I-hit lose-if-I-miss Hypnos that completely determine the outcome of the match. In all of my games I personally find both of these issues rare, and I have much less issue with mid-game Hypnos that can be combated with good teambuilding and counterplay. Despite my experiences, these scenarios obviously exist and the pro-ban argument is obviously a fair one. The one thing I know for sure is that Hypnosis is not broken, but fuck me it might be uncompetitive. The DPP Council (currently consisting of Myself, Heysup, imanalt, Eseque, Star, HSOWA, Levi, Nails, fitzy, and Tony) will be holding a vote within the next few days or so, after we believe we've discussed the situation adequately. Hypnosis will be banned if six or more people vote to ban it, and the potential change will be reflected in all DPP LC tournaments.
 
Last edited:

Corporal Levi

ninjadog of the decade
is a Community Contributoris a Top Tiering Contributoris a Top Contributoris a Site Content Manager Alumnusis a Team Rater Alumnusis a Social Media Contributor Alumnusis a Community Leader Alumnus
Just a heads up - the DPP LC council (myself, melon, nails, fitzy, tony, imanalt, eseque, star, hsowa, and unfortunately heysup) are currently discussing banning Hypnosis from DPP LC. It is often considered problematic for how frequently it decides games in what could be seen as an uncompetitive manner. The fast-paced nature of gen 4 LC means that being put to sleep is almost always a death sentence, potentially drawing comparisons to OHKO moves.

The suspect discusses Hypnosis over individual abusers because any individual user could create this unhealthy situation, though it is more noticeable on its more powerful users (Gastly, Ponyta, Meowth, Glameow). Hypnosis is being targeted for now because of its distribution, but we are open to extending this suspect to Grasswhistle or even sleep as a whole.

We plan to vote on this in a few days; however, it may be delayed if there is still good discussion going on. If you have any comments on the suspect, be it on the banworthiness of Hypnosis or whether it should be what's on the table, please feel free to discuss them in this thread or in the #oldgens channel of the LC discord!
 

Vileman

Actually a Nice Fella
is a Tournament Director Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Former Old Generation Tournament Circuit Champion
UPL Champion
Thanks for propely announcing a vote before it happens. Good shit. Also mad props on the work done so far in this thread, hopefully it will help newer players get into old gens so that they get a bigger playerbase :blobthumbsup:
Much love, keep up the good work
 
i can fight tldr with tldr

When it comes to Hypno usage, it has only been revealed on a total of four different Pokemon in the latest LCPL and LCWC. These Pokemon are Gastly, Ponyta, Glameow, and Meowth (ordered by usage). These should be the only four Pokemon considered, as they are the only relevant users of the move. Additionally, these four can be rather easily grouped into two different categories of Hypno users, which are Hypno Leads (Glameow, Meowth, and Lead Gastly) and Substitute Abusers (Oran Gastly and Oran Ponyta). I'll use these categories later. And yes, I do understand the point you’re attempting to get across here. Hypno is a fairly widespread move in comparison to other sleep-inducing moves.
I think TCR's point is incomplete here and we discussed this a bit on discord. I think that Hypnosis, vs other more accurate sleep moves, is "uncompetitive" because of its accuracy. I actually personally think, that Grass Whistle is actually worth lumping in with Hypnosis here. That is, every time i mention hypnosis, generally, the same thing can be applied to Grass Whistle.

The reason Hypnosis/GW deserve to be banned rather than Sleep Powder (I'd be willing to debate this one a bit more, tbh) and Spore is that this movesisn't a power ban but an risk vs impact ban, a competitiveness ban, like evasion or OHKO b. As I will get into later, the impact of hitting/missing Hypno/GW in DPP LC is monstrous. I would argue that, due to the frailty of pokemon in DPP LC, landing a hypnosis is often actually stronger than landing a OHKO move. It essentially turns a game into a coin flip or series of coin flips. Sleep Powder, and more obviously, Spore, are less likely to be turning the game into a coin flip, because it is likely to happen - it is a better move. The reason we do not notice it as much is because of its distribution. Think about it this way, if Gastly, Glameow, Snover or Ponyta, for example, had Spore, there is no doubt that we would discussing banning those Pokemon for being too powerful. In other words, if those Pokemon had an accurate Sleep move, we would want to ban them for their power. Hypnosis/GW forces the approximately 50% too powerful/50% huge disadvantage type coin flip play which is why they are uncompetitive.

I won’t even start on the first part of this paragraph, but claiming that there are multiple leads used for the sole purpose of clicking Hypnosis turn 1 and praying to hit is just completely wrong. All four of the leads you accuse of doing this have great uses in the lead slot outside of Hypno, with Glameow and Meowth having access to Fake Out and 19 speed, making them annoying as shit to face. Drifloon and Gastly have an incredible amount of great options to pick from and I often find myself forgoing Hypno on Lead Gastly in favor of other more consistent options to start a game with.

I think a large part of the reason many games seem to come down to a Hypnosis hitting or missing is because lots of players have fairly bad plans for dealing with it actually hitting, letting it be significantly stronger than it needs to be. Sleep appears to be strong because for some reason people view a Munchlax not using Sleep Talk as the prime Gastly check when Munchlax barely beats an Oran Gastly when it doesn't click Hypno. Sleep is going to appear insanely strong if you're doing next to nothing to mitigate its power via teambuilding and playing. Also, nobody should feel incentivized to use Hypnosis as every Pokemon that learns it can be used for their intended purpose just fine without resorting to using Hypno, something that I personally have been doing quite a bit more recently.
I think you make an interesting point, and, likely unintentionally, point out an indicia of why I think Hypno/GW fits the uncompetitiveness characteristic. You are an experienced, top DPP player. You would like to believe your odds of winning are better than the approximately (if not lower) than the 50% of hitting hypnosis and getting 2+3 sleep turns. However, other players may not think that and may force better players such as yourself to play those odds because they can't do any better. That, to me, draws a very similar analogy to OHKO moves and/or evasion.

"yeah dpp lc tends to not have 100% reliable plays ever. pokemon as a whole, honestly. i think there's a lot of skill in balancing the risk/reward of different lines of play, and covering different options your opponent could take wrt sleep both in game and in prep. pokemon starts out as an even game where both people have access to exactly the same options, and if not sleep turns games would be decided by matchup, or speed ties, or damage rolls, or correctly calling switches (which is not at all under control of the player and imo is effectively rg/variance)."

The skill obviously doesn't come in hitting the move, it comes in creating opportunities where the move can be safely used, or finding opportunities where you can get the best use of it, or strategically getting your Sleep Talk Mon in on a Hypno, or any other countless amount of scenarios. DPP LC being a "coinflip metagame" is literally a joke, and those who seriously think that either can't play the meta at a respectable level or have some weird personal grudge against it.
What is the problem if we all start with the same options? That argument, at its root, is just simply anti-ban, anti-clause, anti-altering the cartridge. We would be playing 6 scythers vs 6 scythers (for example). I think you and Nails understate the nuances in what makes this game competitive and why we ban things. There is the interplay between building, risk management, and strategy in move choice in the battle, etc. It does not always come down to speed ties, matchup, damage rolls, or guessing (most of which, I would generally argue, come down to probability management). So, why do we ban things? Because we are trying to remove the ability of one player using "something" which creates the situation where the above, skill based and nuanced aspects of the game all but irrelevant.

Hypno/GW, versus someone who is not using it, essentially gives them a certain % chance to make a huge, game defining impact in the the game regardless of what the other player does (whether positive or negative). It is clearly a "something" that I refer to in the foregoing paragraph. Especially, if, like Nails, you agree that prediction in some respects is glorified rg/variance (which hopefully nips the ridiculous "well dude, like u can predict and switch mankey into Hypnosis!" in the bud).

I will address the "sleep talk mon" part later because i think that's a fallacy.
While God Alkione does get put into a poor position due to me landing a Hypno, I want you to really take a look at his team. The way his team is designed there is incredibly limited purposeful counterplay to combat this. His initial reaction is to switch to his Specially Defensive Munchlax that doesn't carry Sleep Talk and hope to wake up. He has nothing to switch to after Munchlax has been slept that can be expected to stand up to Ponyta reasonably, and his team isn't designed in such a way to be able to out-pressure me very effectively. Essentially, this is a case of someone just not being ready for a Mon, not a case of some gigantic Hypnosis swing.

While this can be viewed as just brain-dead Hypno fishing, Mikaav makes a decent play to set up his free turn and weighs his options before clicking Hypno. Also, I'm confident that this did not effect the outcome of the game, but it was his best play regardless.

ES's first reaction against a quite obviously sash Gastly that is clicking Hypno is to switch to his Sleep Talkless PhysDef Munchlax. That is rarely going to go well for you. He basically does the right thing by switching out and spreading the job among multiple Mons, but between a lack of built-in countermeasures and absolutely atrocious luck throughout the game I think this replay gives a bit of a false impression on how strong Hypno typically is.
I'll take this opportunity to talk about "counter play". Really, for fucks sake, someone please put forward a good argument for counter play that doesn't rely on rng associated with Hypnosis hitting or sleep turns. I am not talking about max rolls or crits, I'm talking about dealing with this 40-60% plays that we are forced to make. Eseque literally spent 30 minutes today trying to list any, and in my honest opinion, failed to give any reasonable answers. The best he could come up with were the following (and yes, i won't leave you in suspense, we sort of rudely ate him alive for saying this stuff but he kind of deserved it for the sheer absurdity and lack of thought put into the first one):

1. Switching out! (sorry, i have a hard time taking this seriously)

Switching out is not a counter play. I know this is obvious to most people, but it's unfair if we can't explain why. So here it is. If your counter play to something is to switch out, then you have to have to have another counter play because the problem isn't dealt with. If you switch out endlessly you lose. When I asked the simple question of "switch out to what?" he didn't really understand the need since he thought the problem was all but solved by switching out.

The other possibility is that he means sacrificing one mon to hypnosis for the whole game and then switching out. That's basically the same as sacrificing one Pokemon for the whole game but still losing momentum. It is actually a worse counter play than sacrificing a Pokemon altogether.

I gather most logical individuals would mention one of the next two things so i will give his argument the benefit of the doubt.

2. Lum Berry

I think Lum Berry is the best answer I have seen, but it really fails to hold water when you, again, say "on what?" On anything slower that can take a Sball/SBomb, you are 100% relying on Hypnosis/GW hits and sleep turn counts even though it needs to hit 2. On anything that ties Gastly, you're just looking at another 50% added to the RNG calculator and in my mind is not sufficient to be considered a counter play. Is there anything faster that you can run Lum Berry on that doesn't just die to Gastly that has subbed? Yes - a few things (for the record, these were not brought up, probably because they are bad answers). Lum Berry Gligar sitting at 100% can come in with impunity on Gastly once. Of course, it needs to use Night Slash to OHKO Gastly back. Of course, if SR and Hail are up and Gastly subs on the switch, this does not work (or if Sucker Punch over Sub is used). I think you could probably use Lum and EV other bulky mons like Ponyta or Aipom to be max SpD and survive a Gastly attack/sub on the switch, but then it's pretty useless in all other situations.

Ponyta is interesting because the above speed things don't really apply, though it is generally less powerful than Gastly. Ponyta can be walled depending on its moveset, however, if its something like FB/HP Grass, I don't see much that can come in without relying on hypnosis missing or sleep turns besides maybe bulky Lum Berry Staryu - which is still relying on a tie (similar to Stunky for Gastly but without pursuit). Defensively EV'd Lum Voltorb, I suppose, can come in with impunity, once, against Ponyta and force it out with explosion (or use rain dance). But again, it's otherwise useless after that (like Gligar), can't trap Gastly, and is really weak which can cost momentum or the Pokemon itself.

3. Sleep Talk

Sleep Talk is really a terrible counter play unless you are completely alright with saying that Sleep Talk / Night Slash / No Move / No Move is an acceptable Gligar set or Sleep Talk / Pursuit / Fire Punch / No move with Munchlax, etc. (you get the point) for Gastly, but then you're left open to Ponyta without EQ/Return. Sleep Talk, is not only a terrible counter play because you are still relying on RNG move selection, but you are also relying on RNG wake-up mechanics. Sleep Talking the turn you wake up, which is fairly likely, also gives your opponent an extra turn. So, for example, if you get Hypno/GW on the switch, Sleep Talk on the first turn and you are lucky enough to get the 2/3 or 1/3 move on the sub, your next turn you are even MORE unlikely to get the move choice plus staying asleep, which means your opponent gets a sub up anyway and will put you back to sleep or just ko you.

It's also hilarious when you switch your Sleep Talk fodder Pokemon in for Hypnosis to miss and then they just proceed to switch out to something that your neutered 3 move Pokemon can't deal with. It's more hilarious because this happens 40% of the time.

I know that, some of these, in theory, do "exist" as counter plays, but they are horrible options. Not only do they involve, what Nails himself considers to be variance/rg guesswork in prediction, but you are also, at best, praying at some point for something completely out of the control of either player. Additionally, having a Sleep Talk Pokemon is not quite "useful" when slept, and i would argue not much better than fodder. The only advantage is that you have burned sleep clause and can then counter gastly with your bulky Oran Stunky. However, this is now costing you two pokemon to counter play, and specifically using one suboptimal set.

Now, with all respect to the argument that counter plays exist (but none to how it was presented so far), the threshold for this is much much lower than what you have to do to prepare for Hypno/GW. Haze, Taunt, Encore, Aerial Ace/Swift are not terrible moves (in fact, many Pokemon across all Generations have competitive use for them) to deal with Evasion. Sturdy and immunities are legitimate ways of beating most OHKO moves (ie. Normal / Ground ones (it's not just a Sheer Cold ban)). Having to run random Sleep Talk on Choice Scarf Pokemon PLUS having to carry specific pokemon that can revenge kill (I am not expecting a hard counter, since it is DPP LC after all) Hypno/GW users through a sub or stat boost, to cover ONE Hypno/GW threat . That is far crazier than the aforementioned checks for things like Evasion, Sturdy and using a Flying or Ghost type, which are common enough.

Ah, an LCPL Eseque replay, pullin' out all the stops. Raseri's initial Hypno was handled quite poorly by Eseque, with the second one being a decent example of not completely dogshit counterplay.

Eseque's Hypno on Gunk is probably the most egregious example you can give, as last ditch late game Hypno usage is definitely the best argument you can use to ban Hypno. This one is honestly pretty bad, and should be the basis of the pro-ban argument.

While Hypno looks beyond insane in this replay, and is definitely a good example of how it can look when seemingly everything goes one persons way, imanalt's counter to Hypnosis Gastly was literally waking up. Even if something is absolutely out-of-this-world unfair like people view Hypno, not even attempting to have counterplay to it is not how you're going to beat it, and if anything makes it very apparent that you're not even trying to beat the shit you're complaining about.
In all fairness, trying to wake up is not much better of a counter play than sacrificing a mon with Sleep Talk, which is also relying on only slightly better odds. In any of these replays, there have basically been no counter plays. They basically just sacrifice something as fodder, but it only actually works 60% of the time! Why is this coming down to who is luckier with hypnosis? If you don't want DPP LC to have the coin flip tier reputation, let's take away the most obvious coin flip.

Hypnosis can be argued to do many things to DPP, but I don't think adding 50/50s is exactly what it's known for. Hypno usage is incredibly telegraphed and with proper measures implemented into your teams should be manageable in the vast majority of situations. The real issue comes in when the situation is not one of the vast majority, and the correct play is to click and pray. Also, if spectators find Hypnosis to be incredibly stupid, it's either because the way the players are playing is actually making it stupid or because the spectators bitching about it don't actually understand how to play DPP LC and don't get what's going on. Sometimes it's the former that's the issue, but holy shit is it usually the latter.

Also we get it, you love Heysup, let's get through this.
I completely disagree with this logic. First of all, nothing is telegraphed in this game. That's not a way around something that is just a guess. The click and pray is basically at its route the only counter play. Throwing Lum Berry and Sleep Talk (can someone please explain how "switching out" on its own is a counter play) manipulates the odds slightly one way, but you are still in the OHKO move/evasion move range. It makes utterly no sense to have those banned and Hypnosis/GW freed.

Also you sound jealous ;)

Honestly, I'm still unsure of what I think. As a person I am always quick to defend the side in an argument that leads to no change, as I find it easier to attempt to rechange something rather than change something and then change it back later. As a whole, Hypnosis definitely inserts plenty of chance into an average game, but that is really what we're playing here. We're playing a game of minimizing and maximizing chances to get the result we want, but ultimately we're rarely if ever completely in control. I think the biggest issues with Hypnosis currently are Hypnosis Leads and late game all-or-nothing, win-if-I-hit lose-if-I-miss Hypnos that completely determine the outcome of the match. In all of my games I personally find both of these issues rare, and I have much less issue with mid-game Hypnos that can be combated with good teambuilding and counterplay. Despite my experiences, these scenarios obviously exist and the pro-ban argument is obviously a fair one. The one thing I know for sure is that Hypnosis is not broken, but fuck me it might be uncompetitive. The DPP Council (currently consisting of Myself, Heysup, imanalt, Eseque, Star, HSOWA, Levi, Nails, fitzy, and Tony) will be holding a vote within the next few days or so, after we believe we've discussed the situation adequately. Hypnosis will be banned if six or more people vote to ban it, and the potential change will be reflected in all DPP LC tournaments.
I think you know that your initial anti-ban reaction comes from people complaining how busted hypnosis is - which it isn't. It's barely even a good move. However, it's definitely a crutch to use by certain players to force the game into the early, mid, or late game win-if i hit and get 2 turns, or lose- if i miss. I hate to bring this up, but I really think it says it all. Look at our most recent match in lcwc:

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen4lc-856986623
Let's look at turn 10 and ignore the paralysis shenanigans. I had ways to predict around the obvious hypnosis or sub, but you're basically able to use hypnosis as a crutch there. If i switch out, I lose a ton of momentum and my boosts. Your odds of landing hypnosis and getting a 2 turn sleep are less than 50%. If you miss, I am in an unbelievably good situation - i think depending on prediction i could actually even just win with Floon but at the very least KO 2 more Pokemon.

So I have, then, because of hypnosis, a ridiculous ultimatum where I either make the higher percentage play, or lose out entirely on the favourable position I am in. I see almost no difference than if you used Sheer Cold or Double Team in that scenario.

At the end of the day, this is my problem with hypnosis/gw. You are, in almost any situation you're in (favourable/disadvantaged), forced to make a worse, low % play to avoid the prospect of hypnosis hitting + getting the adequate sleep turns. This to me is worse than OHKO and Evasion.

Vileman i basically had to force them \_0_/ (except Melon who is a gr8 guy)
 
Last edited:

Melon

WWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWW
As promised, the DPP LC Council recently voted on Hypnosis. During our conversations the discussion expanded from solely Hypnosis onto Grass Whistle and sleep moves as a whole, and we decided that we would suspect those alongside Hypnosis. Here are the finalized votes:

Hypnosis:

Corporal Levi - Ban
Eseque - Do Not Ban
fitzy - Ban
Heysup - Ban
HSOWA - Ban
imanalt - Ban
Melon - Ban
Nails - Do Not Ban
Star - Ban
Tony - Do Not Ban

Ban: 7
Do Not Ban: 3
6 out of 10 votes were needed to ban Hypnosis.

---------------------------------------------------

Grass Whistle:

Corporal Levi - Ban
Eseque - Do Not Ban
fitzy - Do Not Ban
Heysup - Ban
HSOWA - Do Not Ban
imanalt - Ban
Melon - Ban
Nails - Do Not Ban
Star - Ban
Tony - Do Not Ban

Ban: 5
Do Not Ban: 5
6 out of 10 votes were needed to ban Grass Whistle.

---------------------------------------------------

All Other Sleep Moves (Sleep Powder, Spore, Sing, Yawn):

Corporal Levi - Ban
Eseque - Do Not Ban
fitzy - Do Not Ban
Heysup - Do Not Ban
HSOWA - Do Not Ban
imanalt - Ban
Melon - Do Not Ban
Nails - Do Not Ban
Star - Do Not Ban
Tony - Do Not Ban

Ban: 2
Do Not Ban: 8
6 out of 10 votes were needed to ban all other sleep moves.

Hypnosis is now banned from DPP LC. Grass Whistle and all other sleep moves will remain unbanned, though retests are possible in the future.
 

Users Who Are Viewing This Thread (Users: 1, Guests: 0)

Top