Proposal On Continental Teams

blank

is a Community Contributor Alumnusis a defending World Cup of Pokemon Champion
Hello everyone,

I am proposing we rework the way continental teams work in WCoP. In their current state, continental drain players from promising country teams due to previous playerbase demographics. Despite many countries now having ample players to form their own team, for some reason players from certain countries are awarded the privilege of being able to choose between playing for their country or joining with players from several other countries that are also largely able to form their own teams. This limits the growth of certain countries unfairly.

My suggestion is simple - if your country has enough players to form a WCoP team, that is the team you have to play for. For example, players from Mexico or Belgium would need to play for teams Mexico or Belgium, since those countries have been able to form teams.

Continental teams should exist to ensure EVERYONE has the opportunity to play WCoP in some capacity, as a means to accommodate for players from smaller countries. Team Africa is a great example of this.

I encourage anyone with suggestions to post - thank you.
 
I fully agree with the points raised by blank. While continental teams allowed players from countries without teams (or with weak teams, though I don't think that's a great reason) to compete, they are no longer the best option as more countries are forming their own teams.

Continental teams were never an ideal solution ; they were just a temporary measure. Now that several countries (I believe Mexico didn't have a team in the past) have their own teams, it’s only logical and fair that players from these countries should be required to join their national teams instead of staying in a continental team.

Allowing players to remain in continental teams when their home country has an established team (I think Belgium is an established team now ? Tell me if I'm wrong but I'm sure I can give similar exemples) is kind of weird. Take Belgium as an example, they've been very good recently, but they could compete at a higher level if players from Team Europe (like McMeghan, Ruft...) were actually playing for them. I know Ruft and McM joined Team Europe because they respectively abandonned Belgium or never cared at all to start with, (Yo, I still like you both as well as Team Europe okay?) and it's a bit late to reproach them now but that should no longer be an option

I understand that players who have been with a team for years might not want to leave it because they've made good friends, or they might just want to join the best team because their national team isn't great. These are unvalid points in a tournament named World Cup, and not Friends Cup. Thus I think the best solution is to require players to join their national team if it's established, no matter if they played for the continental team before.
 
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Playing against that team should be illegal. To the Mexicans and Venezuelians players go play with your national teams, to the Peruvians one rebuild it, it's not the Real Madrid squad but the LATAM one stop camping here :worrywhirl:. (Nothing against yall btw just the logic way of things)
 
Zoyotte said:
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Playing against that should be illegal, to the Mexicans and Venezuelians players go play with your national teams, to the Peruvians one rebuild it, it's not the Real Madrid squad but the LATAM one stop camping here :worrywhirl:.
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I dont see the issue, we sucked anyways and i wouldnt play for mexico anyways, implementing the rule to play for your country seems fine and im good with it but its not like you are forced to signup for the tour and play if you dont want.
 
blank said:
Hello everyone,

I am proposing we rework the way continental teams work in WCoP. In their current state, continental drain players from promising country teams due to previous playerbase demographics. Despite many countries now having ample players to form their own team, for some reason players from certain countries are awarded the privilege of being able to choose between playing for their country or joining with players from several other countries that are also largely able to form their own teams. This limits the growth of certain countries unfairly.

My suggestion is simple - if your country has enough players to form a WCoP team, that is the team you have to play for. For example, players from Mexico or Belgium would need to play for teams Mexico or Belgium, since those countries have been able to form teams.

Continental teams should exist to ensure EVERYONE has the opportunity to play WCoP in some capacity, as a means to accommodate for players from smaller countries. Team Africa is a great example of this.

I encourage anyone with suggestions to post - thank you.
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In favor, force all us to play in our countries :totodiLUL:

Raptor said:
only 30% of that lineup was in good shape
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15% *
 
Zoyotte said:
Then i'm sorry but if you don't want to play for your country then don't play lol it's the wcop not a neighbourhood tournament the rules are the rules haha
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Well, now seriously, if you want to talk about rules and coherence, let's talk about it

I mean, if you want consistency on this tour, and send us all to play on our countrys im down for it, but USA should be just one team, when that happens americans will stop posting things like that
 
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Just enforce the idea of what continental teams are supposed to be, people with not enough players for a country be able to join a larger home, instead of being a bureaucratic super villain justice league

Never mind Belgium and Mexico getting fucked, wanna do a fun exercise? Look at where Netherlands ended on the qualifiers phase. Then, compare it to the amount of Netherlands emojis on the Europe roster, see if something catches your eye

I'm sad that Latin America has to eat the collateral damage directed at Europe, but I hope they know their sacrifice will be worth it
 
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One Last Kiss said:
Well, now seriously, if you want to talk about rules and coherence, let's talk about it

I mean, if you want consistency on this tour, and send us all to play on our countrys im down for it, but USA should be just one team, when that happens Starry will stop posting things like that, since he surely wouldn't be included in a team that only chooses the 15 best in usa
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If other nations can put together multiple teams, and they are willing to split by geography, I doubt there'd be any meaningful opposition.

On the topic - it's vanishingly unlikely I'll ever be good enough to join a WCOP team, so this is purely a spectator view. I'd rather see more national teams, even at the cost of fewer "real contenders," and it'd also open up slots for somewhat-weaker players that currently don't have a choice, because their nations can't form a team. If a handful of players would rather stop participating in WCOP entirely than play for their national team, that also opens up more slots for up-and-comers.

Variety is good for spectators.
 
One Last Kiss said:
Well, now seriously, if you want to talk about rules and coherence, let's talk about it


I mean, if you want consistency on this tour, and send us all to play on our countrys im down for it, but USA should be just one team, when that happens americans will stop posting things like that
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Alternator said:
If other nations can put together multiple teams, and they are willing to split by geography, I doubt there'd be any meaningful opposition.

On the topic - it's vanishingly unlikely I'll ever be good enough to join a WCOP team, so this is purely a spectator view. I'd rather see more national teams, even at the cost of fewer "real contenders," and it'd also open up slots for somewhat-weaker players that currently don't have a choice, because their nations can't form a team. If a handful of players would rather stop participating in WCOP entirely than play for their national team, that also opens up more slots for up-and-comers.

Variety is good for spectators.
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Actually, I think USA should be the only exception because the player base there is very stacked. Since having a team by states would just be too much (sorry California) and having one single team representing USA is also too much, NE USA, Mid etc. sounds okay to me. This allows more great players to play and prevents USA from making a dream team that dominates everyone else. Given how big the USA is, I don't see the issue in splitting it.

fade said:
Getting rid of 2 competent rosters and forcing their players to slot onto different fodder teams sounds like a great way to make this already unbalanced tournament even more top heavy
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This is WCoP, it will always be unfair for smaller teams but that’s not a reason to break the very essence of WCoP just because they want to win. Forcing players to join their national teams can actually strengthen these teams in the long run. While it may initially seem like a disadvantage, it encourages the development of a more robust and competitive national team. Over time, this can lead to a more balanced tournament as weaker teams improve.

Allowing players to stay in stronger continental teams while their home countries have viable teams creates an unfair advantage. By requiring players to join their national teams, the competition becomes fairer and more representative of each country's actual talent pool, which is the goal of WCoP.

When top players move to their national teams, it opens up slots in continental teams for newer players and give them the opportunity to shine and gain experience, which can improve the overall skill level of the competition.

In the long run, having strong national teams will contribute to a more balanced tournament. It may take time for new national teams to reach the same level as established ones, but this investment in the future will pay off by creating a more competitive and exciting (more variety) tournament. You are thinking in the short term, but changes are made for the long term.
 
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Idt the issue here is around having super teams (continental teams never looked like that IMO), neither is about making weak teams stronger, as people like Gondra, Eeveeto or Roro could simply (and most likely) skip the tournament if they couldn't play for their current teams. Its just weird to see 70% of EU/LAs lineups made by renegated players, or people that dont wanna play for their countries in a tournament called World Cup, which is silly... The ruling even protects them in some sense, obviously some of them just care about having higher chances to win the trophy, nobody will drop their teams just to be nice people. The rules need to adapt to our current moment, many teams have grown a lot and reached the big stage, and some adjustments might balance things a bit more for them if anything (and playing alongside em wont be a big issue).
 
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periodical reminder that the core issue lies in the fact wcop as a concept was grandfathered from a time when smogon was considerably smaller and should simply not be held to the same level of prestige as draft team tournaments in current day

like the vgc equivalent of wcop works because team tours in that environment are not the "highest level" of competition and everyone knows this and takes vr world cup at face value, using it as a practice environment and as a chance to goof around w their local communities, but when u have a tour w that sort of (naturally unbalanced) structure hold the highest possible reward in the context of smogon's tour circuit people who are minimally invested are obviously gonna try to increase their odds at a trophy.

should they be allowed to do so through hopping on continental teams? i am not gonna be the one trying to defend that, mostly just wanted to try to get people to look at the whole ordeal with the europe hate glasses off really
Gondra said:
I dont see the issue, we sucked anyways and i wouldnt play for mexico anyways, implementing the rule to play for your country seems fine and im good with it but its not like you are forced to signup for the tour and play if you dont want.
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fade said:
Getting rid of 2 competent rosters and forcing their players to slot onto different fodder teams sounds like a great way to make this already unbalanced tournament even more top heavy
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think these two posts are a good showcase of my point

and if anybody says pokemon world cup is a good idea because traditional sports have them i'm gonna haha react your post
 
I'll just copy/paste what i've already said on this.
It took me enough time to think and write about all of this.
I invite all of you to read all the discussion on Amaranth's thread.
Btw i still wait another answer from TD than "Without clear direction from the community and internal discussions not resulting in a conclusion, we're going to put this on hold for this tournament".
It's like taking us for fools.
1) The problem is there since years.
2) Amaranth start debates in september 2023, we had time to make changes.
3) I end my message with a clear proposition.
4) See the number of reactions from the community.

==>
https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/the-identity-of-wcop.3727503/post-10008792
 
Echoing eoward, this is taking too long given how simple it is. I'll also just quote my post on the previous thread, which was the most supported one, since I don't have much else to say.

Dorron said:

You are from a country with no national team -> you can play for the continental team
You are from a country with a national team -> you must play for the national team
You are from a country which used to not have a national team, but was made this year and made it to main stage -> next year you must play for the national team

This tournament is to play with your country, and continental teams were made to let people from countries without enough players to have a team to play with. Otherwise you are not only not following the tour's philosophy but also making it even harder for your national team to keep up with the competition. This is not a tour where you choose your team, it is not that hard to understand.
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Speaking as myself and not on behalf of any others, mostly unfiltered and without much attempt at making an ironclad argument that represents the full extent of what are admittedly "you know it when you see it" nebulous thoughts bouncing around in my head.

I think continental teams need to change significantly. The idea that people can qualify for multiple teams makes sense in the context of someone who spends significant time in two countries or regions that both have WCOP representation - France and Belgium, US NE and US South, et cetra. I don't think it makes sense at all for someone to qualify for multiple teams by existing in a country that has its own WCOP team and also is close enough to a region that has a continental team. I think it's silly that two WCOP teams can represent a specific location, and think that any future structure needs to make sure that outside of cases of people legitimately living in two distinct geopolitical spaces, you can only qualify for one team.

I don't find arguments comparing the situation to the US teams to be particularly motivating, nor do I hold much stock in arguments about non-geographic based justifications. This is WCOP, an inherently unbalanced tournament that would've never passed the muster for a trophy tour consideration if it was considered nowadays. Stuff like "oh wow sure let's make this tour more top heavy by forcing good players onto bad teams" or "leave us be this tour's about playing with our washed up friends" are not anywhere in the ballpark of how I view what WCOP should be and the goals this tournament was set out to accomplish.
 
FFK said:
Actually, I think USA should be the only exception because the player base there is very stacked. Since having a team by states would just be too much (sorry California) and having one single team representing USA is also too much, NE USA, Mid etc. sounds okay to me. This allows more great players to play and prevents USA from making a dream team that dominates everyone else. Given how big the USA is, I don't see the issue in splitting it.
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If you can make an exception for someone, you can make it for everyone.

I am sure that if in the next world cup a large nation with a wide range of players like France put together a second roster to participate in the world cup, they did not let it play.

And as you say it, seems like everyone is in favor of make weakening teams, rather than having teams that are able to compete against bigger teams.

I have no idea how to reply to this comment but since we are bringing that whole conversation here, this also deserves to be heard: https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/the-identity-of-wcop.3727503/post-9771560

And I totally empathize with Belgium, they have proven to be strong and deserve all their players for the team.
 
There is a very big difference with continental teams and US Teams. One (US teams) is designed to divide a region to help competition. The other (continental teams) is designed to help players who do not have a country to still be able to play. If people have issues with the way US Teams are divided, I think that’s fair, but I don’t think it has much to do with continental teams and should be a separate discussion.
 
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