Metagame On The Radar (Update @ Post #94)

[lost heros]

Who would've guess that one of the scariest things to face in a 1v1 was a stapler remover...

Absolutely everyone -- cuz this damned thing is banned in like every format it's legal in (well, from what I can tell, OU at least). I personally would lean more on the Ban Archaludon train because of the sheer versatility it has (as said previously by bern above me) and the stranglehold it has on Team Preview. Now, I'm not a 1v1 statistics wiz but if ANY MON can singlehandedly bring you up to near Top 500 on any tier ladder, that mon is a little bit too good.

There's literally any active ladder challenge where you run a single Pokémon to get 1500s. There are many Pokémon way beyond Arch that can singlehandedly get you to 1500.

No singular mon should ever catapult the masses to top tier performance WHILE ALSO being extremely difficult to handle.

What do you think top tier performances are if not being pokemon that are extremely difficult to handle?

Much Archaludon counterplay is the likes of Ground types or just trying to outbulk it and retaliate.
The only problem; Archaludon, for some reason, has a base speed stat of 80 FUCKIN 5 and a SpAtk stat of 125.
Now, this may not seem like much but as most of you know, this fuckhead got an Electric type Meteor Beam -- oh, AND IT HAS METEOR BEAM. This thing can easily run Electro Shot + Meteor Beam on a Power Herb set as it normally does, and it has access to a Choice Specs damage boost for free. The fact that it's actually kinda fast doesn't exactly help your case of "how to beat Archaludon". You can't beat what you can't outspeed, especially if the thing you're trying to outspeed is the #1 mon to beat in the tier. Sturdy only bolsters this things offensive prowess to an alarming degree. At least without Sturdy, you can POSSIBLY try and OHKO it. With Sturdy, however, you're not gonna be able to OHKO archaludon unless you have some sacred tech or Mold Breaker. If you don't have access to either the anti-Archaludon tech, or a Mold Breaker mon, you better KO it in 2 hits -- because Archaludon can VERY EASILY 2HKO the entire list of good 1v1 mons. It all comes together in this really oppressive collection of everything it has.
- Sturdy
- Dragon + Steel typing (makes it hard to OHKO even without Sturdy due to the defensive benefits of Dragon + Steel)
- Actually has good bulk (90/130/65)
- High SpAtk stat (125)
- Good speed (85)
- Access to an Electric and Rock type +1 SpAtk -- both of which have MINIMUM, 120 BP

This is a rather frustrating paragraph to respond to, because it's extremely exaggerated and because while everything is *technically* correct, it's just not the right picture. The truth of the matter is that a combination of Special Bulk / Recovery / Speed / Priority absolutely does shut down Power Herb, Custap, and Specs sets.

For example, AV Raging Bolt stops even Specs Arch
252 SpA Choice Specs Archaludon Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Assault Vest Raging Bolt: 354-416 (77.9 - 91.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0+ SpA Raging Bolt Draco Meteor vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Archaludon: 288-339 (89.7 - 105.6%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO
0+ SpA Raging Bolt Thunderclap vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Archaludon: 77-91 (23.9 - 28.3%) -- 96.6% chance to 4HKO

Dual charge moves can be stopped by the likes of Substitute Iron Moth
-1 252 SpA Archaludon Draco Meteor vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Iron Moth: 127-150 (42.1 - 49.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
(you sub on the meteor beam on 1 and the draco on 2, flash does not cut it)

Snarl + Moonlight Umbreon shrugs off virtually everything
+1 252 SpA Archaludon Electro Shot vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Umbreon: 164-194 (41.6 - 49.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 SpA Archaludon Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Umbreon: 165-195 (41.8 - 49.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO


The actual problem IS the set versatility. If Arch was restricted to what you listed, we'd be laughing at even the concept of the suspect. It's because Arch is able to run ID or Stamina AV BPress, Mixed Scarf, Mirror Coat, Rock Tomb, or whatever other thingss you can imagine that we are considering this suspect.

This thing is almost perfect. It has little to no downsides whatsoever, with an expansive enough movepool to be fairly customizable in its role of
being an overall goodstuffs mon.

This is an actually interesting point you've brought up. Usage has a whopping 15 moves associated with it. Now I wouldn't necessarily call this an "expansive" movepool. Rather sets use a few different core moves and then throw in whatever filler else. Like you can't run Electro Shot or Meteor Beam on non-Herb sets. You're not running endure or rock tomb on any choiced set. And while yea it's interesting that you're running dark pulse on your specs set to have some notable usage for it, when is it actually relevant


Anyways let's suspect Arch, but let's have an informed discussion on it.

 

[Blanched]

Quick post since we're doing fact checks

Dual charge moves can be stopped by the likes of Substitute Iron Moth
-1 252 SpA Archaludon Draco Meteor vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Iron Moth: 127-150 (42.1 - 49.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
(you sub on the meteor beam on 1 and the draco on 2, flash does not cut it)

+1 252 SpA Archaludon Flash Cannon vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Iron Moth: 88-104 (29.2 - 34.5%) -- 5.7% chance to 3HKO
Flash absolutely cuts it, moth is 50/50s at best vs herb and subbing t1 loses to scarf

Snarl + Moonlight Umbreon shrugs off virtually everything
+1 252 SpA Archaludon Electro Shot vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Umbreon: 164-194 (41.6 - 49.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 SpA Archaludon Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Umbreon: 165-195 (41.8 - 49.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

"Necrozma is fine guys, it loses to Krookodile" Ignoring the fact you also lose to bpress sets, I shouldn't have to run a niche C- mon on every team so I don't auto lose to arch

The actual problem IS the set versatility. If Arch was restricted to what you listed, we'd be laughing at even the concept of the suspect. It's because Arch is able to run ID or Stamina AV BPress, Mixed Scarf, Mirror Coat, Rock Tomb, or whatever other thingss you can imagine that we are considering this suspect.

Power and flexibility go hand in hand in 1v1, 90% of the suspect bans happen because a mon is flexible enough to pick and choose what it beats (like arch), this is splitting hairs for no real reason.
TLDR suspect archaludon please

 

[lost heros]

Quick post since we're doing fact checks


+1 252 SpA Archaludon Flash Cannon vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Iron Moth: 88-104 (29.2 - 34.5%) -- 5.7% chance to 3HKO
Flash absolutely cuts it, moth is 50/50s at best vs herb and subbing t1 loses to scarf

You got me there. I wasn't being necessarily thorough in the match observation and was just trying to give an example of a speedy mon with counter play that can absolutely punish arch.

"Necrozma is fine guys, it loses to Krookodile" Ignoring the fact you also lose to bpress sets, I shouldn't have to run a niche C- mon on every team so I don't auto lose to arch


Power and flexibility go hand in hand in 1v1, 90% of the suspect bans happen because a mon is flexible enough to pick and choose what it beats (like arch), this is splitting hairs for no real reason.
TLDR suspect archaludon please

"The actual problem IS the set versatility. If Arch was restricted to what you listed, we'd be laughing at even the concept of the suspect. It's because Arch is able to run ID or Stamina AV BPress, Mixed Scarf, Mirror Coat, Rock Tomb, or whatever other things you can imagine that we are considering this suspect"

Every single Pokemon I mentioned can easily be tech'd by a different Arch set. I wasn't trying to say "here's 3 counters for all you Arch haters". But the post I was responding to was 100% overexaggerating Arch's raw power from a single or 2 set perspective.

Let's actually talk about the set versatility and not pretend that just Herb Arch utterly dominates.

 

[MattC (Banned)]

There's literally any active ladder challenge where you run a single Pokémon to get 1500s. There are many Pokémon way beyond Arch that can singlehandedly get you to 1500.




What do you think top tier performances are if not being pokemon that are extremely difficult to handle?

Was referring to standard laddering and tournaments that DO NOT involve restrictions of sorts. Out of all of the mons that normally perform well and place high in tournaments and on ladder, from consistent performance, Archaludon is the most oppressive out of all of them. Handling an anti-meta mon is a lot more challenging than handling something that's been in the meta for a while, and even in the event that you top with a good mon that isn't Archaludon, Archaludon is (compared to that other mon) a lot more degenerate from my own experience.

This is a rather frustrating paragraph to respond to, because it's extremely exaggerated and because while everything is *technically* correct, it's just not the right picture. The truth of the matter is that a combination of Special Bulk / Recovery / Speed / Priority absolutely does shut down Power Herb, Custap, and Specs sets.

For example, AV Raging Bolt stops even Specs Arch
252 SpA Choice Specs Archaludon Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Assault Vest Raging Bolt: 354-416 (77.9 - 91.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0+ SpA Raging Bolt Draco Meteor vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Archaludon: 288-339 (89.7 - 105.6%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO
0+ SpA Raging Bolt Thunderclap vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Archaludon: 77-91 (23.9 - 28.3%) -- 96.6% chance to 4HKO

Dual charge moves can be stopped by the likes of Substitute Iron Moth
-1 252 SpA Archaludon Draco Meteor vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Iron Moth: 127-150 (42.1 - 49.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
(you sub on the meteor beam on 1 and the draco on 2, flash does not cut it)

Snarl + Moonlight Umbreon shrugs off virtually everything
+1 252 SpA Archaludon Electro Shot vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Umbreon: 164-194 (41.6 - 49.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 SpA Archaludon Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Umbreon: 165-195 (41.8 - 49.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO


The actual problem IS the set versatility. If Arch was restricted to what you listed, we'd be laughing at even the concept of the suspect. It's because Arch is able to run ID or Stamina AV BPress, Mixed Scarf, Mirror Coat, Rock Tomb, or whatever other thingss you can imagine that we are considering this suspect.

This is an actually interesting point you've brought up. Usage has a whopping 15 moves associated with it. Now I wouldn't necessarily call this an "expansive" movepool. Rather sets use a few different core moves and then throw in whatever filler else. Like you can't run Electro Shot or Meteor Beam on non-Herb sets. You're not running endure or rock tomb on any choiced set. And while yea it's interesting that you're running dark pulse on your specs set to have some notable usage for it, when is it actually relevant

You yourself said that its set versatility is what makes it so good -- EVEN THOUGH it has 15 moves associated with its usage. Those 15 moves (and more) is the thing that truly makes it so hard to deal with. A lot of mons can beat Archaludon, but why would it be talked about if it wasn't a problem? Clearly, the mons that beat Archaludon, and the sets of those mons that can beat Archaludon, just aren't enough. Assuming I try and "be different" and not use Power Herb, now it is a matter of who beats who.

You may have an epic Iron Moth or Raging Bolt set, but I can beat it no problem with Earthquake. (Ok that might be a bit of a stretch but Earthquake eases this exchange a ton). Snarl + Moonlight Umbreon is all cool and dandy, until I reveal that I'm Clear Amulet with Metal Sound. That's just how it works with 1v1, as we both know and understand. You beat me, I beat you in response. Archaludon is just one of those mons that's still REALLY GOOD even if it's predictable. And even in the event that you do deviate from the standard Power Herb, what must you sacrifice? One matchup against a specific Gouging Fire set? Ok then, so be it. Do I still lose to Raging Bolt even with these changes? Again, so be it. I'll just adjust my set to try and have a chance to beat it whilst balancing the other matchups I have against meta. The Archaludon player can really easily slot in ways to beat a mon that may try to contest it without giving up too much on exchange -- just like a lot of mons in 1v1. And if we assume all it does is run Power Herb with little deviation at all, that set still is VERY GOOD. Power Herb being the only set would cause it to not be as good -- as you said -- because everything can beat a mon so long as it has a singular set. But because it's not the only set, and the other sets are all equally (if not more) dangerous than what you might anticipate, it's one of the strongest mons in the tier.

Anyways let's suspect Arch, but let's have an informed discussion on it.

I wasn't trying to be a jerk about the situation. All I was doing was giving my piece of mind on the situation. I exaggerated it? Ok, my fault. But I'm not wrong about most of what I said. Archaludon is still really good, and its stats, typing, movepool, and Sturdy (because it's totally fair to give a speedy mon Sturdy just look at Ogerpon Cornerstone) just kinda perfectly tailor it for meta success.

In the end, we are all subjected to our own opinions. I got a track record of taking situations to a level it doesn't need to be, but I also bring up genuine talking points about said thing. We'll continue talking about Archaludon until the hype dies down, or until it's banned/becomes more manageable.
I might be a walking contradiction in what I say but know that I don't try to be malevolent about the situation

 

[recti]

gm, Archaludon has counters but it can blow them away with a simple counter set, it's counter sets aren't unviable either It's hard to set guess on preview since it's very flexible and can fit in to a lot of teams as a 3rd or a 2nd
Okay so before I get into the main post can we start off with some logs in the set submissions channel in the 1v1's official discord server

stravench trying to beat arc with lando-i

View attachment 624043
View attachment 624047
View attachment 624048 PA made a point here

So basically strav was submitting an av lando-i claiming it "beats" all archaludon, so they were talking about how AV and scarf arch beat strav's set. Strav suggested running earthquake on lando-i for the sole purpose of archaludon so just like PA said debating on eq lando-i just for arc is suspect worthy if you ask me.


Archaludon can run a variety of sets and catch the opponent by surprise and you're set guessing 7 usable and completely viable sets on preview (av, balloon, chople ,band,scarf, power herb and specs) while balloon and chople are just niche sets that your opponent MAY bring the others are very plausible for your opponent to bring. These factors cause a lot of confusion for the opponent of the arch player on preview. And all the power is in the hands of the arch player. It basically gets STAB 120 and 130 base power rock and electric moves respectfully, which also increases the power of Archaludon's other special attacking moves. It's great defensive typing while basically getting 4 STABs makes it a powerhouse in the tier beating top threats like Primarina and gouging fire.




Just like necrozma Archaludon can be hard to play against on both the builder and preview. It's proven to have been very threatening as a Mon in both the tournaments and ladder. The majority of the community is leaning towards suspecting it and their reasoning is fair. Can we also talk about how gouging is above arch in the VR and arch is the one we're debating on suspecting?????. Mfw Archaludon is far superior than Gouging fire if you ask me . I think we should Suspect Archaludon

 

[luser]

Usage has a whopping 15 moves associated with it. Now I wouldn't necessarily call this an "expansive" movepool.

I would. Last month 13 of Archaludon's moves were present on more than 5% of sets above 1630 Glicko. Compare that to flexible and unpredictable pokemon from last gen. The month before it got banned, Jirachi only had 10. The month before it got banned, Genesect had 12. The month before it got banned, Necrozma had 12. Zygarde-Complete matches Archaludon at 13. It's disingenuous to bring up stats with no point of reference. If you're looking solely at ladder usage stats, Archaludon is clearly has a "more expansive movepool" than stuff like Necrozma (mon which viably ran dd lo cm lo band specs and stall sets)

Don't know / care enough about the actual SV meta to comment about a suspect but I'm disappointed that a post has this much misinformation, especially when its picking apart every single sentence of a newer member of the community trying to contribute.

 

[RTM]

Can we also talk about how gouging is above arch in the VR and arch is the one we're debating on suspecting?????. Mfw Archaludon is far superior than Gouging fire if you ask me.

I just wanna give my reasoning for this idk what other vr council members think. I value the consistency gouging has over archaludon; with many potential options sometimes arch just won’t be the right set/moves for the matchup, whereas gouging only changes a few matchups when switching sets.

Gouging is both very strong and very consistent, making it the best mon in my eyes. However, while archaludon has many good options, it doesn’t have a main set as good (imo) as gouging’s basic stuff, it’s hard to rank it as high as gouging.

While it’s overbearing when your opponent is using it, it’s not as powerful when you’re using it because no one of its sets have insane matchups. This is somewhat the opposite of gouging where your opponent knows what it’s going to do but it’s still threatening purely because of its matchups.

This still means archaludon can be unhealthy and suspected while not being the ‘best’ mon, as its sheer potential to beat most of the vr and set ambiguity make it unhealthy.

Hmu on cord if u need this articulated better

 

[Marshme1to]

So basically strav was submitting an av lando-i claiming it "beats" all archaludon, so they were talking about how AV and scarf arch beat strav's set. Strav suggested running earthquake on lando-i for the sole purpose of archaludon so just like PA said debating on eq lando-i just for arc is suspect worthy if you ask me.

Id say this is a flawed example as Lando-I can reasonably run eq.

Id agree with what seems to be the general sentiment that this mon simply has too many tools/sets available, which can be viably fun while hitting different mons, that make it a sort of check to a large portion of the meta. Havent played much DLC2 but from what I’ve seen it leads to unhealthy previews and is a strain on team building, shouldn’t be forced to run random shaymin.

Idk why we needed an otr for this other than a formality but this mon should clearly be suspected/banned. I’m not seeing any pro arch arguments so personally I don’t see the point of a suspect but they might pop up if it is suspected.

 

[DripLegend]

Sus da bridge! I’ll make a real post at some point after suspect / thread is live but I agree with the majority of ppl that this guy is worthy of action.

 

[DripLegend]

Thank you to those of you that took the time to respond! Council has decided to suspect Archaludon, more details will be up soon so keep an eye out!