On The Radar Vol. 2 [See Post #336]

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Arena trap is completely broken, uncompetitive, and has warped the metagame into what I find is an unhealthy and boring state. Dugtrio at this time traps or forces suboptimal sets on quite a few wallbreakers, like Shed Shell Toxtricity as Mannat pointed out was used in Sage vs Tace and Quick Attack Sylveon exists for Dugtrio exclusively as well, showing how constraining Dugtrio is to worry about for these Pokemon that would otherwise have absolutely no reason to run these things. Also, a lot of wallbreakers can’t fix their Dugtrio matchup too much really (CM / LO Clef, Excadrill at +0, speed, Obstagoon, Tyranitar, etc) which makes the metagame harder to break since these defensive Pokemon have less ways to break them. However, what I find to really be what brings Dugtrio over the edge (and why I for sure want it and Arena Trap banned) is the fact it traps many defensive Pokemon as well (chipped Seismitoad, Clefable, Sylveon lacking Quick Attack, Toxapex, and pretty much any grounded and weakened Pokemon that’s outsped). Said defensive Pokemon and even more offensive ones who work well with it are also able to get it in easily to abuse the trapping, namely U-Turn Corviknight, U-Turn Dragapult, Rotoms, etc. We can also see Dugtrio’s effect on SPL with many games revolving around Dugtrio and it trapping something for either play to make much progress.

Finally, to address the Dugtrio vs Arena Trap debate, my own stance is we ban Arena Trap as a whole since it brings nothing of healthiness or value and just gives room for Digglett or even stuff that could get Arena Trap in the DLC to run free and potentially be problematic. For people saying “Digglett and Trapinch aren’t broken so only ban Dugtrio”, we’re legit debating LC and a Pokemon that fell to PU after its ahility is banned is broken soley because of its ability, which in my opinion just shows how insane Arena Trap is. Let’s just not take any chances on this one like we did with BW, where people just used Digglett and did the same shit as before.

Sorry for a long and probably shitty post.
 
The thing is: Diglet or Trapinch or whatever baby mon being problematic or not with Arena Trap shouldn 't matter.
If the ability is broken, it should be banned period. When Dynamax got banned, it got banned in its entirity, becouse the mechanic itself was uncompetitive. We didn 't keep Dynamax Rattata or Caterpie becouse that' s cherry picking, inconsistent and it may lead to other problems in the future, wasting even more time.

Just delete the ability please.
 
When people are resorting to Quick Attack Sylveon and Shed Shell punk rocker solely because of Arena Trap Dug, you know there's an issue. There's really no point in delaying this process any more by arguing over semantics, we've gone over this before and everyone much knows what needs to be done at this point.
Sorry, but this is a terrible argument. The top pokemon of every metagame influence item, moveset, and ev choices. Is it time to suspect Seismitoad because Rotom-W has to run sub/nplot/dark pulse in order to be usable?
 
Sorry, but this is a terrible argument. The top pokemon of every metagame influence item, moveset, and ev choices. Is it time to suspect Seismitoad because Rotom-W has to run sub/nplot/dark pulse in order to be usable?
This is such a straw man argument. This is not remotely the same concept. That Rotom set is not significantly hamstringing Rotom-W, it's just pidgeon-holing. Shed Shell on a sweeper like Toxtricity is giving up a significant amount of power just to be playable.
 
People are stating that the bro-ban arguments for Arena Trap are lacking when the Theotherguytm showed that Trapinch can trap Seismitoad.
That set is not the best it can be by the way, I should know since I've been working on it since the beginning of January. I've talked about it with other trap players, Feliburn, and users in OU & RU chat.

Trapinch  sprite from Ruby & Sapphire

Trapinch @ Eviolite
Ability: Arena Trap
EVs: 20 Atk / 36 Def / 212 SpA / 240 SpD
Sassy Nature
- First Impression
- Earthquake
- Giga Drain
- Quick Attack / Super Power

Quick Attack is useful for taking out protect variants of Seismitoads. This set allows you to trap Bisharp (after rocks), Seismitoad, and Toxtricity (LO non-Modest).
While dealing around 50% to Hydreigon with First Impression, dealing similar damage to Obstagoon, Crawdaunt, and Rotom-Mow.

If Trapinch can take down Seismitoad, which Dugtrio can not do without major chip damage then, what else can it trap? And that's the problem with trapping, "What is the player going to trap?"

This is huge, Trapinch can trap a mon that can hit it for Super Effective STAB damage. It can even trap Sylveon and non-LO Clefable for major damage, allowing Choice Specs or LO Hydreigon to take it out afterwards.

Trapinch @ Choice Band
Ability: Arena Trap
EVs: 244 HP / 252 Atk / 12 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Earthquake
- First Impression
- Superpower
- Quick Attack

Trapinch and Diglett are both capable of revenge killing most offensive threats that are weakened, just like Dugtrio. And that's the big problem here, unpredictability + near-perfect revenge killing.

The problem with Trapping Abilities is that invalidates any switching, which means that this opens doors for Powerful Threats to bust open holes in teams or to sweep with ease. This also works great for stall. All of this makes threats seem bigger than they already are and makes for counterplay seem non-existent.

Quickban Arena Trap.

Edit: Yeah, I wanted to see Dracovish banned as well, not a complex ban lol (I'll be more than glad to make ban arguments for Dracovish once this is over :D)
 
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Finchinator

-OUTL
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OU Leader
We will absolutely not be entertaining any form of complex ban such as the one alluded to in the above post or anything along similar lines. Please do not discuss this anymore. Discussion about Arena Trap v Dugtrio has already been sketchy enough, so let's not find new ways to derail the thread and compromise the discussion as a whole that are simply unrealistic.
 
Pretty sure that was not meant to be seen as a complex ban, and rather the user saying ban AT and ban Vish. Not the combination of the two.

With that said, I'm not sure if y'all are expecting any real discussion past what has already been stated. This is a discussion we've had for the past 4 generations. We can only regurgitate so much...
 

Finchinator

-OUTL
is a Tournament Directoris a Top Social Media Contributoris a Community Leaderis a Community Contributoris a Smogon Discord Contributoris a Top Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis a Top Smogon Media Contributoris a Super Moderator Alumnusis a Battle Simulator Moderator Alumnusis a Past WCoP Championis the defending OU Circuit Championis a Two-Time Former Old Generation Tournament Circuit Champion
OU Leader
Pretty sure that was not meant to be seen as a complex ban, and rather the user saying ban AT and ban Vish. Not the combination of the two.

With that said, I'm not sure if y'all are expecting any real discussion past what has already been stated. This is a discussion we've had for the past 4 generations. We can only regurgitate so much...
Did not think anyone would be proposing a Dracovish ban in a thread that was specifically about Dugtrio / Arena Trap in a metagame where Dracovish is not remotely broken, but I see. If that's the case, then remember to stay on topic please!

As for the later part of your post, it is only fair to give people a chance to voice their opinion as the council is not yet decided and it is still a relatively fresh metagame with new threats, so you never know.
 
This is such a straw man argument. This is not remotely the same concept. That Rotom set is not significantly hamstringing Rotom-W, it's just pidgeon-holing. Shed Shell on a sweeper like Toxtricity is giving up a significant amount of power just to be playable.
Running Shed Shell on Toxtricity is pigeonholing in the same way sub/nplot/dark pulse is on Rotom-Wash. Both mons are unable to play to their strengths because of the mons in the meta. The point is, the top mons shape the meta. Rotom-Wash was one of the most used mons all of last gen and the beginning of this gen until Seismitoad rose to prominence. Now, it's almost completely useless outside of 1 extremely niche set. Some pokemon just don't fit in the meta. Toxtricity and Rotom-Wash are among the unfortunate victims of this.

Btw I'm all for a Dugtrio ban, I just don't like the precedent that the original post sets.
 
Just a few quick thoughts.

First, I believe that whether or not we decide to ban dugtrio (or arena trap) it should go through a suspect.

As for the dugtrio vs arena trap issue, I think the point is that we should make a definitive decision regarding trapping as a hole. So there are two possible solution:

1. We decide trapping is not inherently uncompetitive, therefore we should only ban mons that are too problematic with those traits, for example dugtrio and gothitelle but not trapinch, magnezone ecc.

2. We decide trapping is actually uncompetitive in itself, so we should introduce a new trapping clause where every single ability or move that prevents the opponent from switching is banned.

There is no right solution, it's just about how we want the metagame to develop and whether or not we want trapping mechanics to be a part of it.

I also believe that ibrid solutions, like what we currently have in gen 6 and 7, where shadow tag and arena trap are banned but not magnet pull, despite the fact that they are same mechanic, are just inconsistent.
 

Zetalz

Expect nothing, deliver less
is a Pre-Contributor
As for the dugtrio vs arena trap issue, I think the point is that we should make a definitive decision regarding trapping as a hole. So there are two possible solution:

1. We decide trapping is not inherently uncompetitive, therefore we should only ban mons that are too problematic with those traits, for example dugtrio and gothitelle but not trapinch, magnezone ecc.

2. We decide trapping is actually uncompetitive in itself, so we should introduce a new trapping clause where every single ability or move that prevents the opponent from switching is banned.
Frankly I find this take many seem to have with trapping as a whole where "it's either all of it or none of it" is really disingenuous to the nuances of the mechanic. AT and ST are clearly problems yes, but that doesn't make shit like Infestation or Anchor Shot or whatever the fuck else oppressive threats. People weren't calling shit like Whirlpool Azu an uncompetitive menace before. I firmly believe that trapping isn't inherently uncompetitive rather it's the abilities that blanket like 90% of mons in AT and ST that cause huge problems. Carpet bombing anything related to trapping because of two abilities causing a big issue is like banning all recovery because Regenerator or Strength Sap is broken or something stupid like that.

I don't have anything to add to the actual topic of sus vs QB really that hasn't been regurgitated already and this thread's quality is already in the gutter. I don't care if it's a suspect or a quickban just please get Arena Trap dealt with swiftly so I can fun again, thanks.
 
Frankly I find this take many seem to have with trapping as a whole where "it's either all of it or none of it" is really disingenuous to the nuances of the mechanic. AT and ST are clearly problems yes, but that doesn't make shit like Infestation or Anchor Shot or whatever the fuck else oppressive threats. People weren't calling shit like Whirlpool Azu an uncompetitive menace before. I firmly believe that trapping isn't inherently uncompetitive rather it's the abilities that blanket like 90% of mons in AT and ST that cause huge problems. Carpet bombing anything related to trapping because of two abilities causing a big issue is like banning all recovery because Regenerator or Strength Sap is broken or something stupid like that.
I believe that to be incorrect. Those traits are problematic only when combined with certain mons or movepools.
Gothitelle is broken with st, but that's not the case for wobbufett, dugtrio might me broken, but trapinch or diglett are definatly not.
So my point is that banning just arena trap is arbitrary and goes against the current tiering policy, where the first thing we do is ban the problematic mon as a hole (see darmanitan). It makes no sense to treat arena trap differently from gorilla tactics, if we do't think trapping is uncompetitive.
Also if trapinch and diglett reveal to be problematic we can just take care of them in the future, but as of now we don't have the evidences that can support such a strong action against arena trap unless, again, we think that trapping is uncompetitive in itself.
 
People are stating that the bro-ban arguments for Arena Trap are lacking when the Theotherguytm showed that Trapinch can trap Seismitoad.
That set is not the best it can be by the way, I should know since I've been working on it since the beginning of January. I've talked about it with other trap players, Feliburn, and users in OU & RU chat.

Trapinch  sprite from Ruby & Sapphire

Trapinch @ Eviolite
Ability: Arena Trap
EVs: 20 Atk / 36 Def / 212 SpA / 240 SpD
Sassy Nature
- First Impression
- Earthquake
- Giga Drain
- Quick Attack / Super Power

Quick Attack is useful for taking out protect variants of Seismitoads. This set allows you to trap Bisharp (after rocks), Seismitoad, and Toxtricity (LO non-Modest).
While dealing around 50% to Hydreigon with First Impression, dealing similar damage to Obstagoon, Crawdaunt, and Rotom-Mow.

If Trapinch can take down Seismitoad, which Dugtrio can not do without major chip damage then, what else can it trap? And that's the problem with trapping, "What is the player going to trap?"

This is huge, Trapinch can trap a mon that can hit it for Super Effective STAB damage. It can even trap Sylveon and non-LO Clefable for major damage, allowing Choice Specs or LO Hydreigon to take it out afterwards.

Trapinch @ Choice Band
Ability: Arena Trap
EVs: 244 HP / 252 Atk / 12 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Earthquake
- First Impression
- Superpower
- Quick Attack

Trapinch and Diglett are both capable of revenge killing most offensive threats that are weakened, just like Dugtrio. And that's the big problem here, unpredictability + near-perfect revenge killing.

The problem with Trapping Abilities is that invalidates any switching, which means that this opens doors for Powerful Threats to bust open holes in teams or to sweep with ease. This also works great for stall. All of this makes threats seem bigger than they already are and makes for counterplay seem non-existent.

Quickban Arena Trap.

Edit: Yeah, I wanted to see Dracovish banned as well, not a complex ban lol (I'll be more than glad to make ban arguments for Dracovish once this is over :D)
The reason I run the EVs I do is that PysDef Gastrodon has a tiny chance to beat you 1v1, and the EVs you mention actually lose 1v1 to Gastrodon be majority of the time (keep in mind the burn chance and possible rocks damage, so the most likely outcome is you dropping to the third Scald before you can finish the job, and Gastrodon gets Recover). It just depends whether you value more trapping the more niche Water Absorbers or other mons. Yeah, Quick Attack sounds good, not like the majority of Tyranitars lose 1v1 to Superpower (only the unboosted Dragon Dance variant dies lol). Also 36 Def gives you an odd Def, so 32 Def gives you the same bulk because of Evolite.
0 SpA Gastrodon Scald vs. 0 HP / 240+ SpD Eviolite Trapinch: 126-150 (54.5 - 64.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
212 SpA Trapinch Giga Drain vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Gastrodon: 192-228 (45.1 - 53.6%) -- 31.3% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery (41.5 - 49.3% recovered)
0 SpA Gastrodon Scald vs. 0 HP / 248 SpD Eviolite Trapinch: 134-162 (58 - 70.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ SpA Trapinch Giga Drain vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Gastrodon: 224-264 (52.7 - 62.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery (48.4 - 57.1% recovered)
Anyway, glad to see I'm not the only one trying stupid things.
Oh and yeah, Vish is next when this is over.
Like I said, Magnet Pull is fine since it lacks the ability to pull off this kind of BS and is predictable. Arena Trap can pretty much be customised to trap half the game. And that's without Duggy.
 
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zbr

less than 99% acc = never hit
is a Tiering Contributor Alumnus
I believe that to be incorrect. Those traits are problematic only when combined with certain mons or movepools.
Gothitelle is broken with st, but that's not the case for wobbufett, dugtrio might me broken, but trapinch or diglett are definatly not.
So my point is that banning just arena trap is arbitrary and goes against the current tiering policy, where the first thing we do is ban the problematic mon as a hole (see darmanitan). It makes no sense to treat arena trap differently from gorilla tactics, if we do't think trapping is uncompetitive.
Also if trapinch and diglett reveal to be problematic we can just take care of them in the future, but as of now we don't have the evidences that can support such a strong action against arena trap unless, again, we think that trapping is uncompetitive in itself.
if you say wobb, trapinch and diglett are not broken because they are weak it's seriously because you haven't seen trapping used in it's absolute glory. every tour game i saw wobb, i'd clam up cause it meant i had to play around those shitty encore + tickle into a potential pursuit or custap destiny bond and that goes for wynaut too.

as long as trapping remains as an ability and not a move, it will always remain as a broken mechanic that should be removed to encourage healthier gameplay. it's time to go arena trap.
 
People are stating that the bro-ban arguments for Arena Trap are lacking when the Theotherguytm showed that Trapinch can trap Seismitoad.
That set is not the best it can be by the way, I should know since I've been working on it since the beginning of January. I've talked about it with other trap players, Feliburn, and users in OU & RU chat.

Trapinch  sprite from Ruby & Sapphire

Trapinch @ Eviolite
Ability: Arena Trap
EVs: 20 Atk / 36 Def / 212 SpA / 240 SpD
Sassy Nature
- First Impression
- Earthquake
- Giga Drain
- Quick Attack / Super Power

Quick Attack is useful for taking out protect variants of Seismitoads. This set allows you to trap Bisharp (after rocks), Seismitoad, and Toxtricity (LO non-Modest).
While dealing around 50% to Hydreigon with First Impression, dealing similar damage to Obstagoon, Crawdaunt, and Rotom-Mow.

If Trapinch can take down Seismitoad, which Dugtrio can not do without major chip damage then, what else can it trap? And that's the problem with trapping, "What is the player going to trap?"

This is huge, Trapinch can trap a mon that can hit it for Super Effective STAB damage. It can even trap Sylveon and non-LO Clefable for major damage, allowing Choice Specs or LO Hydreigon to take it out afterwards.

Trapinch @ Choice Band
Ability: Arena Trap
EVs: 244 HP / 252 Atk / 12 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Earthquake
- First Impression
- Superpower
- Quick Attack

Trapinch and Diglett are both capable of revenge killing most offensive threats that are weakened, just like Dugtrio. And that's the big problem here, unpredictability + near-perfect revenge killing.

The problem with Trapping Abilities is that invalidates any switching, which means that this opens doors for Powerful Threats to bust open holes in teams or to sweep with ease. This also works great for stall. All of this makes threats seem bigger than they already are and makes for counterplay seem non-existent.

Quickban Arena Trap.

Edit: Yeah, I wanted to see Dracovish banned as well, not a complex ban lol (I'll be more than glad to make ban arguments for Dracovish once this is over :D)
If Trapinch was so good, why noone is using it? It can trap one of the best and most common Dracovish counters. I will tell you why, it's because it is awful against everything else, if your opponent doesn't have it or one of the 4 other mons it can sort of trap, it is completely useless.

The only reason why Arena Trap was banned instead of dugtrio is that those two could do the same thing duggy did for stall, but stall right now is pretty much unviable, so the only reason those two were previously banned is gone. Furthermore, they are barely worth using as there are other mons that also beat obstagoon/sharp/toad and actually do even more. Other calcs like the fact it can do some dmg to mow and hydregion creates a false picture that Trapinch actually does smt outside of trapping 5 things. Pinch does not trap those two and only beats them while they are severely chipped. All in all prevos are extremely hard to justify using and are far from OP. It's dugtrio's fault
 

Deleted User 229847

Banned deucer.
if you say wobb, trapinch and diglett are not broken because they are weak it's seriously because you haven't seen trapping used in it's absolute glory. every tour game i saw wobb, i'd clam up cause it meant i had to play around those shitty encore + tickle into a potential pursuit or custap destiny bond and that goes for wynaut too.

as long as trapping remains as an ability and not a move, it will always remain as a broken mechanic that should be removed to encourage healthier gameplay. it's time to go arena trap.
Pursuit got removed from the game, and a gimmick tactic does not warrant a ban on trapping in general (unless we state that trapping is uncompetitive and so on and so forth, you know the drill).

All you (most of the users in this thread) are doing is theorymoning about the new meta. I have yet to see anyone use trapinch or diglett in the SS OU ladder with a moderate chance of success, this is clearly against the OU policy and any argument about banning arena trap that does not entertain the notion that trapping is uncompetitive is fallacious at best.
 
if you say wobb, trapinch and diglett are not broken because they are weak it's seriously because you haven't seen trapping used in it's absolute glory. every tour game i saw wobb, i'd clam up cause it meant i had to play around those shitty encore + tickle into a potential pursuit or custap destiny bond and that goes for wynaut too.
I didn't say they aren't broken cause they are weak, I said they are not broken period, or atleast there are no evidence that lead to that conclusion yet. Don't just assume I don't know what I'm talking about just because you don't agree, I very well know how they works and what they could be capable of, as well as I know that their trapping ability can be seen more similar to what magnezone does rather than to goth and duggy, as the pool of mon they can reliably trap is significantly smaller. Therefore they should not be treated as duggy or goth.
 
if you say wobb, trapinch and diglett are not broken because they are weak it's seriously because you haven't seen trapping used in it's absolute glory. every tour game i saw wobb, i'd clam up cause it meant i had to play around those shitty encore + tickle into a potential pursuit or custap destiny bond and that goes for wynaut too.

as long as trapping remains as an ability and not a move, it will always remain as a broken mechanic that should be removed to encourage healthier gameplay. it's time to go arena trap.
This ^. It doesn't matter how "weak" trappers are, it doesn't matter how "bad" they are by normal standards, all that matters is what they trap and how bad your team wants that dead. The unpredictability of what trappers do also often forces misplays as the victim tries to play around a potential trap, even if that particular variant cannot trap anything on their team. For instance, I got several comments of "lol I'm about to play against a Trapinch" from people who had nothing for it to trap, but because of the threat that it might be able to trap something, they spent time trying to play around it when they should have been looking for ways to stop Vish running over their team. This is also not an issue with Magnet Pull.
If Trapinch was so good, why noone is using it? It can trap one of the best and most common Dracovish counters. I will tell you why, it's because it is awful against everything else, if your opponent doesn't have it or one of the 4 other mons it can sort of trap, it is completely useless.

The only reason why Arena Trap was banned instead of dugtrio is that those two could do the same thing duggy did for stall, but stall right now is pretty much unviable, so the only reason those two were previously banned is gone. Furthermore, they are barely worth using as there are other mons that also beat obstagoon/sharp/toad and actually do even more. Other calcs like the fact it can do some dmg to mow and hydregion creates a false picture that Trapinch actually does smt outside of trapping 5 things. Pinch does not trap those two and only beats them while they are severely chipped. All in all prevos are extremely hard to justify using and are far from OP. It's dugtrio's fault
Two simple answers.
1. Matchup fishing. Teams that use Toad will probably lack a secondary check to Vish, as they consider it dealt with in the builder. So when Toad gets trapped, their team folds. The ladder idea is simply to run into enough teams with Toad and/or without a soft check to Vish that your win-loss is positive and your rating goes up. This can also be applied to a tour setting, albeit much more riskily. This is obviously not something that should be encouraged, in fact fishing for certain matchups was what lead Baton Pass to be banned, as it was easy to deal with using certain things, but if you didn't have them you probably lost. Matchup fishing is uncompetitive and whenever it becomes a viable strategy something has to be dealt with.
2. Trap/Vish requires the whole team to be built around it, it's not something you can just slap on a team, or append as a core to an existing team, which makes it hard to use. But Vish is stupid enough that it can carry a team if the opponent lacks an answer. Yeah there are other mons that force out Toad, but that's useless to a Vish team. Vish needs Toad dead, not hiding in the back. That's like saying "there are loads of mons that beat Clef and Pex, why use Dugtrio?" And to pretend Hydreigon isn't taking chip is silly. Yeah it doesn't trap it, but it forces it out with ease into something else that takes chip and you can check without having to worry about a double switch, which hands you easy momentum.
Also the argument that stall is bad therefore Diglet is bad because Diglet was only on stall last gen is terrible, because Dugtrio was also only on stall last gen. This gen Dugtrio is on everything. So why do Diglet and Trapinch suddenly become restricted to stall?
The argument that "all trapping is broken or none is" is a massive oversimplification, and fails to account for how much easier to play around and linear Magnet Pull and Pursuit are. If you see Magnet Pull in Team Preview, you can be 99% certain what it will do, and 100% certain it is targeting a Steel. (And Corv can just U-Turn out, so I don't think Magnezone post-DLC is going to be an issue somehow, but we'll cross that bridge when we get to it.) When you see Arena Trap in Team Preview you cannot know for sure what it will trap, and it could target any grounded non-Ghost, which is a large proportion of the game. Pursuit is totally different as, for instance, Reuniclus can actually defeat most Pursuit trappers by staying in, either by PP stalling with Acid Armour and Recover, or just Focus Blasting them to hell. Pursuit is only a genuine trap when your opponent cannot stay in or switch out, whereas trapping abilities only require that they can't stay in. This ends up making a huge difference, and most Pursuit trappers are therefore restricted by needing the damage output to kill with Pursuit whether they stay in or not.

But yeah. It seems like we've reached an impasse. The pro-Duggy ban people say that Diglet and Trapinch's niche is too small to warrant an Arena Trap ban, the pro-AT ban people say the exact opposite. Then we go round and round in circles with pointless stuff like "is Magnet Pull broken", "Is Diglet worth saving" and "should we unban Wynat" until we get back to exactly where we started. I'd like some new discussion points to be bought up by someone, but until then, I'm off.
 

Deleted User 229847

Banned deucer.
This ^. It doesn't matter how "weak" trappers are, it doesn't matter how "bad" they are by normal standards, all that matters is what they trap and how bad your team wants that dead. The unpredictability of what trappers do also often forces misplays as the victim tries to play around a potential trap, even if that particular variant cannot trap anything on their team. For instance, I got several comments of "lol I'm about to play against a Trapinch" from people who had nothing for it to trap, but because of the threat that it might be able to trap something, they spent time trying to play around it when they should have been looking for ways to stop Vish running over their team. This is also not an issue with Magnet Pull.
Yes it is an issue with magnet pull unless you know the magnezone set beforehand (scarf? subchargebeam? etc.) and you put shed shell on all your steel pokemons. U-turn on corviknight is forcing you to use u-turn on every situation unless you want to get trapped and either killed or highly damaged (this is the suboptimal playstyle you have to use in order to supposedly play around trapinch, based on your own reasoning).
Also your main argument is terribly weak, it's quite predictable what a trapper will do and what will want to trap from the very moment of team preview. You have to play around a ton of other shit, namely most statuppers or a stab from a cbander (such as fishious rend). How is that any different than playing around a trapinch or diglett? Answer: there's no difference. I have to carefully protect my check/counter from a specific threat and that might make me play suboptimally, this happens realistically every game. In fact, it did not happen on the ladder with trapinch or diglett so far, given how much usage they have (basically 0).
 
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as long as trapping remains as an ability and not a move, it will always remain as a broken mechanic that should be removed to encourage healthier gameplay. it's time to go arena trap.
I think it should be clarified a little more that trapping can exist as an ability but the range of what it can affect needs to be limited far more in the spectrum of what it can affect before it becomes not busted.
 
This ^. It doesn't matter how "weak" trappers are, it doesn't matter how "bad" they are by normal standards, all that matters is what they trap and how bad your team wants that dead. The unpredictability of what trappers do also often forces misplays as the victim tries to play around a potential trap, even if that particular variant cannot trap anything on their team. For instance, I got several comments of "lol I'm about to play against a Trapinch" from people who had nothing for it to trap, but because of the threat that it might be able to trap something, they spent time trying to play around it when they should have been looking for ways to stop Vish running over their team. This is also not an issue with Magnet Pull.

Two simple answers.
1. Matchup fishing. Teams that use Toad will probably lack a secondary check to Vish, as they consider it dealt with in the builder. So when Toad gets trapped, their team folds. The ladder idea is simply to run into enough teams with Toad and/or without a soft check to Vish that your win-loss is positive and your rating goes up. This can also be applied to a tour setting, albeit much more riskily. This is obviously not something that should be encouraged, in fact fishing for certain matchups was what lead Baton Pass to be banned, as it was easy to deal with using certain things, but if you didn't have them you probably lost. Matchup fishing is uncompetitive and whenever it becomes a viable strategy something has to be dealt with.
Im reallly pushing the line right now but just wanted to respond to this point which i dont agree with or even think

Magnezone is ran alongside mega metagross early gen 7 to trap one of its few counters in mega scizor freeing up a moveslot. Its ran alongside tapu lele all the time to trap ferro, celesteela and defensive jirachi which forced people to run av magearna. Or paired with mega pinsir to remove celesteela forcing u to rely on zapdos

It even dates back to gen 5 where the uncompetitive dragmag core exists where dragons only reliable switchins were ferrothorn and skarmory, which surprise surprise magnezone trapped reliably.

Magnezone forced them to run shed shell, why is it okay to force celesteela and ferrothorn (which rely on leftovers) and skarm which would love rocky helmet to use useless items but a big no no to run shed shell on toxtricity or tyranitar


People need to stop pretending magnet pull is any different. It does exactly what you described above in ur seismi example. Dumb pokemon needs one said counter gone, then pokemon goes ham after partner traps the counter.

Swear its my last rant about magnet pull, feel free to delete mods if its too irrelevant
 

Yung Dramps

awesome gaming
Yup, this convo has already reached its late stages not even 2 days in. As much as I would love to lock the thread again and tear out Arena Trap from the metagame now and forever, I'm not an OU TL and it's clear there is some controversy over how to go about things, and seeing as none of us want to waste anymore time regardless of our perspective, here's my compromise option:

Arena Trap suspect with Dugtrio banned on the ladder. If Do Not Ban is voted on Arena Trap, Dugtrio is quickbanned regardless.

Both sides agree Dugtrio at least is gross, the only controversy, the only reason we are wasting any more time regurgitating points is over whether Diglett and Trapinch are dumb enough to warrant the entire ability being banned. In this case banning something (Duggy) on the suspect ladder is warranted as to allow us to really evaluate the baby trappers and if they can be equally as jank without the superior option looming over people's heads and dissuading their use.
 

McCoolDude

Just a fat shark
is a Smogon Discord Contributoris a Community Leader Alumnus
Yup, this convo has already reached its late stages not even 2 days in. As much as I would love to lock the thread again and tear out Arena Trap from the metagame now and forever, I'm not an OU TL and it's clear there is some controversy over how to go about things, and seeing as none of us want to waste anymore time regardless of our perspective, here's my compromise option:

Arena Trap suspect with Dugtrio banned on the ladder. If Do Not Ban is voted on Arena Trap, Dugtrio is quickbanned regardless.

Both sides agree Dugtrio at least is gross, the only controversy, the only reason we are wasting any more time regurgitating points is over whether Diglett and Trapinch are dumb enough to warrant the entire ability being banned. In this case banning something (Duggy) on the suspect ladder is warranted as to allow us to really evaluate the baby trappers and if they can be equally as jank without the superior option looming over people's heads and dissuading their use.

This is pretty much the way I see it. I've yet to see an argument for Dugtrio staying, it has all been pro or anti AT. The most conservative approach seems to be ban the one obviously broken thing, then potentially extend the ban if other things rise to busted levels.

This is a bit different from the dynamax ban by way of having only 2 potential bans (Dugtrio and arena trap), as opposed to the entirety of the gen 8 roster. The worst case to this approach is that Diglett and Trapinch stay in the meta a bit longer.
 
I completely agree with Yung Dramps. I know that this wasn't given as an option by the council but I think a dug suspect is pointless because it's so obviously broken. The other trappers are the point of contention and the only people making real points are Yung Dramps and theotherguytm and @ponty. I see their perspective now but I think it would be better to see these two trappers in practice instead of just theorymoning about them (and nobody would use them rn because duggy is so much better in every way). Most of the people on this thread are just coming in and saying "well obviously trapping is uncompetitive cancer so just ban that shit" or "diglet and trapinch are shitmons and would never be used at all" both of which are very shortsighted opinions.
 
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