On The Radar

[Martin]

I agree with everything that's currently on the radar and honestly think that every single one of them is quickban worthy because they're all utterly retarded.

I want to show my support for a re-test of Shadow Tag once the meta has settled down properly, but only if it is done with Gothitelle banned so that we can test if Wobbuffet and, to a lesser extent, Gothorita (this is more likely to be a problem due to the permanent nature of Trick) are problematic in the same way that Gothitelle blatantly is. My reason for saying this is because, in addition to Wobbuffet being a completely unique with regards to the way that it plays and it's both balanced from my experience last gen while also just being a really fun 'mon in general. In addition to this, I'm not big on banning abilities that more than one Pokémon have access to personally and would rather ban problematic users rather than the ability as a whole, and I also really dislike the logic of Tag as a whole being uncompetitive and think there's a lot of inflated stigma around it (and, by extension, trapping as a whole) which I personally disagree with given that a trapping ability is only as good as the tools available to its user are.

I don't agree with the proposals for suspecting Arena Trap/Dugtrio. I think that a lot of the stigma surrounding the it comes from the stigma surrounding trapping in general, and having both used Dugtrio extensively and faced a lot of opposing Dugtrio I do not find it to be particularly problematic. Even with the attack boost it still has a lot of the issues that it had in generation 6, such as a reliance on either OHKOing its target (CB/LO) or there being no hazards on the field (Focus Sash), and it's still limited with regards to what it can trap both by the limitations of it's ability and of its choice of moveset, and it has quite a bit of trouble versus a number of archetypes including rain while also not consistently trapping a number of fundamental defensive threats like Celesteela, Lando-T, Skarmory etc. That said, I can see Sablenite+Dugtrio becoming a problem again in the future, and I think that if that were to happen that Sablenite would once again be the problematic element.

Finally, I'd like to propose a potential Toxapex suspect test on the basis of it having a number of traits which lead to it being too difficult to take down and forcing unnecessarily high amounts of preparation to not outright lose to it. It's defenses are stupidly high, it has access to an incredible ability in Regenerator that means it just doesn't die, and it has a large number of options that stop it being a complete sitting duck like is the case with Carbink. While I'm not basing my proposal entirely around the slightly outdated Portrait of an Uber, I personally think that it meets the criteria to be suspected on the defensive characteristic:

Defensive Characteristic
A Pokémon is uber if, in common battle conditions, it is able to wall and stall out a significant portion of the metagame.

I've built teams with Tapu Koko and multiple lures for this thing and have still found myself being unable to beat it. It isn't consistently trapped by Focus Sash Dugtrio (it doesn't even 2HKO it), it has a 30% chance to not lose to Band Dugtrio from full health with Scald, it's immune to toxic, and its access to Regenerator+reliable recovery means that doesn't even need to carry Black Sludge to have longevity--allowing it to run Shed Shell to escape Dugtrio if it's weakened with no drawbacks or to run a far more useful item for its role such as Rocky Helmet. All in all this thing is just really, really stupid to try and deal with.

 

[SJCrew]

If you want an idea of just how problematic Pheromosa is, play a few ladder matches and count how many of Toxapex, Aegislash, or both you see. It seems like I'm encountering one close to every single match, and all of the teams that that don't pack them are, surprise surprise, Pheromosa-weak. Don't even get me started on people who think they're safe because they have a Pelipper or Mantine, as I haven't seen either one successfully keep hazards at bay before getting chunked by Pheromosa's U-turn and forced out immediately.

I actually think people in general are severely overestimating Mantine because that thing has a serious rocks weakness and is still passive as all get-out. I don't see how its mere existence stops anything from wreaking havoc when it's pressured by such a large portion of the meta.

My first impression with Landorus-I is that it's a low priority. It can't exert enough pressure against offense due to its low speed and Celesteela is really good at keeping it at bay. I don't see any problem with keeping watch on it, though, as Ground/Poison coverage is sort of obnoxious right now.

I have little experience with Genesect and Greninja. We'll talk about those another day.

 

[Jajoken]

I'd say it's pretty likely to go anyway, but I'll throw in my two cents about Aegislash by indulging in the proud Pokemon tradition of bastardizing evolutionary biology terms:

Aegislash is a genetic bottleneck.

It's not broken per se, and I disagree with people that make that claim. It's not exactly impossible to switch into or kill with the right attacks, and the interactions with King's Shield are aggravating but not inherently unfair. However, it's drastically hurting the diversity of this new metagame. Aegislash is like some sort of cataclysmic event that's thinned out the breeding pool of the population, and now we have to make do with what's left. This almost entirely comes down to the fact that Aegislash has a typing that effortlessly shuts down an upsetting amount of coverage combos (basically anything that relies on Fighting as an answer for Steel types), and the fact that it's a great Ghost/Steel over just being a serviceable one (Doublade) is what allows it to strangle the diversity of the metagame.

Let's all think back to a pre-Aegi ban XY: Jirachi and Starmie fell to UU entirely due to being shutdown by a single popular Pokemon. In ORAS, they returned to being among the best in OU, not because of a wide array of metagame factors, but almost entirely on the back of Aegi's absence. Mega Medicham, Mega Heracross and Mega Gardevoir, now considered ORAS staples, were all but nonviable in the early XY meta because they simply had no way to navigate Ghost/Steel aside from very mediocre coverage options, like EQ on Heracross or Fire Punch on Medicham. This is distinctly different from natural metagame shifts like MVenu falling off due to a rise in Sand offense or whatever...Pokemon fall off in viability all the time, but it's never due to a single other Pokemon, it's something more general like "more Electrics" or "more Stall." Aegislash is so influential that it holds the same sway as entire playstyles despite being a single Pokemon.

And here we are again. Tapu Lele, a mon so potentially dangerous and meta-shaping that many predicted it would be an early ban, has settled into its reputation as "pretty good" because Aegislash shuts it down. Magearna is in the same boat. Pheromosa is...broken despite Aegi being around, but that thing is something else lol. Buzzwhole, like Heracross and Terrakion before it, is forgoing Fighting STAB for EQ or running them both as repetitive coverage primarily to take on Aegi (and Tox). And people will say "Good! Aegislash is keeping those threats in check! Without Aegi we'd be screwed!" but those people are missing the point, because the same things were said during the original Aegi suspect. People feared we'd have to ban everything it kept in check, like Gard, Hera and Medi. They were wrong. In fact, the post-Aegi metagame was one of the most refreshing changes to the OU tier for the entire generation, and it drastically increased its diversity, from the mons that couldn't beat Aegi (Medi) to the mons that rose to check them with Aegi's absense (Mew). If I were a shady politician, I'd say Aegislash is taking our jobs: it's too effective as both an offensive and defensive Pokemon to allow any competition to flourish.

Right now, there's simply no reason not to use Aegislash on a team. It fits on any playstyle, requires very little support, and blanket checks half the meta and much of the potential meta that simply cannot be viable right now. Nothing in OU has ever approached the level of Primal Groudon in ORAS Ubers more than Aegi, and since unlike Ubers, OU actually removes things that take over the tier, I think it's time to make the right decision and quickban this shit.

Is it overpowered? No.
Is it broken? No.
Is it overcentralizing? Hell yes.

Whether or not that alone is worth the ban is open to interpretation, but undoubtedly Aegislash is making Gen 7 OU less diverse by its very presence. If you want to let this newborn meta really find it's footing and grow, Aegi's got to go.

 

[Slimmer]

Aegislash / Genesect / Pheromosa absolutely need to go.

Still some doubt about Landorus, even tho it's showing to be the same brutal Pokémon it always has been, while I have a not-so-much solid opinion on Greninja even though I'm using it pretty much everywhere, I would like to see how it works without most broken stuff around. Never tried Hoopa-U as now, but its features aren't changed at all so it'd be okay seeing it go.

Another mon I find really dangerous is Tapu Lele: despite its "average" 95 base Speed (which seems to be enough in this slower generation), the combination of its pretty good Special Attack stat + Psychic Terrain + Choice Specs/Life Orb/Calm Mind support + good coverage let it nuke several Pokémon on opposing field, with Hidden Power Fire + Focus Blast allowing it to give several damages to its checks, while Psychic/Psyshock + Moonblast dealing huge damage to everything else (I didn't list Shadow Ball because it's useful right now just because of Aegislash, otherwise Moonblast will always hit Psychic types hard enough).
Its Special Defense is good enough to let it run also an Assault Vest, increasing its bulkyness. Only Defense is pretty mediocre, but Psychic Terrain allows Tapu Lele being immune to Bullet Punch and Shadow Sneak which happen to be 2/3 of its weakness, and the only supereffective priorities, forcing you to run faster Steel/Poison/Ghost Pokémon.

I'm not saying it should be banned but I'm putting it on a radar because, soon, it will be so dangerous to be considered suspect worthy in my opinion.

EDIT: how can you guys consider Toxapex banworthy while it's more passive than Chansey? (cwl)

 

[JoeyVN]

I think Pheromosa should be the next one to go. It's either your team has Aegis/Toxapex or busted. As mentioned, Phero has crazy offense stat, plus it can just safely u-turn out v.s. its counter. And U-Turn deals a big chunk too, it can quickly wear down its check just after a few switch-in (unless you're Aegis or Toxapex). Pheromosa even overshadows broken shits like Lando-I & Greninja on hyper offense, thus make these 2 seem much less problematic than they actually are. In short, Phero should go first, then we can look into Lando+Greninja later.
Aegis and Gene are as good as they were last gen, I don't see there's anything new of Sun & Moon to keep these 2 in check. But I might be wrong as the meta is too much of a mess right now, plus us still trying to figure things out.

 

[Ash Borer]

Finally, I'd like to propose a potential Toxapex suspect test on the basis of it having a number of traits which lead to it being too difficult to take down and forcing unnecessarily high amounts of preparation to not outright lose to it. It's defenses are stupidly high, it has access to an incredible ability in Regenerator that means it just doesn't die, and it has a large number of options that stop it being a complete sitting duck like is the case with Carbink. While I'm not basing my proposal entirely around the slightly outdated Portrait of an Uber, I personally think that it meets the criteria to be suspected on the defensive characteristic:

I've built teams with Tapu Koko and multiple lures for this thing and have still found myself being unable to beat it. It isn't consistently trapped by Focus Sash Dugtrio (it doesn't even 2HKO it), it has a 30% chance to not lose to Band Dugtrio from full health with Scald, it's immune to toxic, and its access to Regenerator+reliable recovery means that doesn't even need to carry Black Sludge to have longevity--allowing it to run Shed Shell to escape Dugtrio if it's weakened with no drawbacks or to run a far more useful item for its role such as Rocky Helmet. All in all this thing is just really, really stupid to try and deal with.

I think you might be overreaching with Toxapex. There's just no way its capable of beating as much of the metagame as you claim. I just do not think you're playing around it correctly. Firstly, Toxapex is a pokemon that's limited by its passivity, its only chance of stopping something from boosting through it is a scald burn. I don't think thats good enough grounds for being an uber. Pretty much any nasty plot, calm mind or swords dance user can muscle past Toxapex due to its utter lack of offensive presence, and its no trivial matter for the Toxapex user to handle giving up those turns to boost. You can carry haze sure, but can you handle that initial +2/+1 attack?

There are just so many attacks Toxapex can't stomach. Tapu Lele and Mega Alakazam are NO joke, even now when Aegislash, Pheromosa and Genesect whom are all natural enemies are not uncommon. Alakazam's regenerator trace makes it a great switch into Toxapex, and both it and Tapu have sufficient coverage and utility options to punish incoming walls to take advantage of the switches it forces. Then there's all the powerful electric types lurking, and the pervasiveness of powerful earthquakes. I mean hell, switching Rotom-W into Toxapex, hitting it with a will-o-wisp or thunder wave, then pain splitting off the damage you took and volt switching for ~30% goes a long way to making Toxapex easier to kill later, and to getting your counter in safely. Those are three fairly common weaknesses that Toxapex simply doesn't have the stats to stomach, and hit back meaningfully. Defensive Ubers like Lugia, Zygarde-100 and Arceus not only have the stats to stomach super effective hits they're mean when they hit back.

Toxapex is good, very good, but I just can't see it being any more of a defensive threat than say Chansey.

 

[Albacore]

Personally, I think we should suspect/quickban Pheromosa first, then Genesect, then Aegislash, then everything else (possibly swap Gene and Aegi, not 100% sure about that yet). Reason being that Aegislash morphs the tier so much that stuff which may be broken with Aegi can be completely fine without it. I'm thinking especially about Landorus, which seems insane now, but will be a lot more manageable when Latis are less of a liability. Which means that the only Pokemon which really make sense to suspect before Aegislash are ones that are potentially broken despite actively hurt by its presence. This defenitely applies to Pheromosa, who is utterly ridiculous to deal with even with a near-hard counter on almost every team, and Genesect, which is still a mindless momentum generator/speed controller whise game plan of "spamming U-Turn until you can just stay in and sweep" is extremely effective and consistent, despite Aegislash's ability to eat up U-turns like they're nothing. If they're already this good right now despite Aegi checking them, it's pretty safe to say they wouldn't suddenly become balaced once it leaves, unless something insane happens to the tier

So yeah, that would be my order of priority. If you ask me, there's more potentially broken stuff in SuMo than the OP suggests (if you're curious, those would be Tapu Koko, Tapu Lele, Dugtrio, Mega Mawile, Manaphy, possibly even Magearna, in no particular order) but Aegi is absolutely a top priority and we should deal with it before any of these.

 

[Slimmer]

Mega Mawile

Sorry to quote you for this very little detail but, as now, Mega Mawile is unplayable on Gen 7 due to lack of Mawilite in-game, so it's "unreleased" like many other megas

 

[HailFall]

Lando-I is fine right now. It has quite a few stops in mons like celesteela, latis, skarm, etc etc. Not all of them are hard stops but provided you're not running some super slow passive team thats gonna be susceptible to tons of shit anyways and are making some effort to check it/are running faster mons you should be fine. Rp kind of dunks on offense but that's why you need to maintain momentum and not allow it to set up for free.

I think aegi is fine too fwiw but no one actually agrees with me lol... It has tons of viable answers. Its presence and the way it limits the number of viable pokemon in the meta is healthy in my opinion.

Edit: o yea and at least for right now I think hoopa is not that bad. We'll see later on but there are definitely bigger fish to fry imo. Good aegi answer.

 

[November Blue]

I'm shocked that Zygarde was banned so quickly. Not just that, but quickbanned? Before Aegislash and Pheromosa?

It didn't deserve the ban, IMO. Not yet, at least. Once Aegislash is banned, Fairy-types will surge in usage. It's a surprise to nobody that the sword is holding them back in the meta. Would Zygarde still be broken with Fairies running around?

I don't understand what the OU council is doing. Unban Power Construct, quickban Aegislash and Pheromosa, and go from there. If the whole purpose of this 'suspect period' is to determine whether x mons are viable in OU, Zygarde got the short end of the stick.

What's the alternative? Do nothing for a few weeks/a month before suspecting or banning anything else? Most people seem to agree that Aegislash needs to go so the meta can stop suffocating and develop, so let's ban Zygarde instead and do nothing for a while.

 

[Luckstard.]

I feel like Aegislash is mandatory in every team because of Pheromosa, possibly Genesect too, that's why I agree with Albacore when he says we gotta get rid of some mons before suspecting Aegislash.

I may be wrong and I'm too lazy to theorymon on it, but if Aegislash wasnt that mandatory on every team like it is now, maybe he'd be less centralizing. Although Aegi is one of the greatest mon to ever been OU in Pokémon history and would probably still centralize the meta but maybe at a less problematic level just like Clefable is centralizing ORAS OU at an "acceptable" level.

I'm also a bit afraid seeing how SM could look like with these possible bans. I feel like SM could turn out as an update of ORAS OU metagame with similar archetypes etc which would be a bit sad considering we are playing a different gen.

 

[Maysoon]

I'm shocked that Zygarde was banned so quickly. Not just that, but quickbanned? Before Aegislash and Pheromosa?

It didn't deserve the ban, IMO. Not yet, at least. Once Aegislash is banned, Fairy-types will surge in usage. It's a surprise to nobody that the sword is holding them back in the meta. Would Zygarde still be broken with Fairies running around?

I don't understand what the OU council is doing. Unban Power Construct, quickban Aegislash and Pheromosa, and go from there. If the whole purpose of this 'suspect period' is to determine whether x mons are viable in OU, Zygarde got the short end of the stick.

What's the alternative? Do nothing for a few weeks/a month before suspecting or banning anything else? Most people seem to agree that Aegislash needs to go so the meta can stop suffocating and develop, so let's ban Zygarde instead and do nothing for a while.

I think the reason it was quick banned was pretty obvious. There was no way a Zygarde 100% wasnt going to win a game unless the user played it so poorly it was ohkod by some STAB Ice move. The thing just sets up Coil/DD and doesnt die because rest + over 200 base HP. It was nowhere near Mega Mence levels of insane but seriously just play it once and you will see how broken and lopsided games become with it in play.

EDIT:
Since I dont want to make this post utterly useless I guess I'll agree with banning Aegi/Phero first. I think Phero should go first especially since every team is essentially running Aegi because of it. Either way one should get banned right after the other. W/o Aegi Phero just becomes even more insane and w/o Phero Aegi becomes less pressured since U-Turn is just so great on Phero.

 

[Martin]

I'm shocked that Zygarde was banned so quickly. Not just that, but quickbanned? Before Aegislash and Pheromosa?

It didn't deserve the ban, IMO. Not yet, at least. Once Aegislash is banned, Fairy-types will surge in usage. It's a surprise to nobody that the sword is holding them back in the meta. Would Zygarde still be broken with Fairies running around?

I don't understand what the OU council is doing. Unban Power Construct, quickban Aegislash and Pheromosa, and go from there. If the whole purpose of this 'suspect period' is to determine whether x mons are viable in OU, Zygarde got the short end of the stick.

What's the alternative? Do nothing for a few weeks/a month before suspecting or banning anything else? Most people seem to agree that Aegislash needs to go so the meta can stop suffocating and develop, so let's ban Zygarde instead and do nothing for a while.

how would a surge of fairies have affected it when it's fat enough to take on ice-type attacks lol

 

[November Blue]

how would a surge of fairies have affected it when it's fat enough to take on ice-type attacks lol

Unaware Clefable, Pixilate Hyper Voice Sylveon/Mega Garde/Mega Altaria, Stallbreaker Mew, etc.

Zygarde-C is a threat that needs to be prepared for, just like anything else. IMO it's only broken in an Aegislash-centric meta; it'd be much more difficult for it to set up with Fairies running around.

It just surprises me that we're being so cautious about jumping the gun with any bans, or doing anything too soon, then this happens. The meta is only a few days old, and Zygarde is just the shiny new toy of the day. That's why everyone is using it. It's not versatile/splashable like, say Landorus-T or Keldeo. Does it work on stall teams? How about hyper offense?

The meta would have adapted, especially post-Aegislash.

 

[Leica]

Unaware Clefable, Pixilate Hyper Voice Sylveon/Mega Garde/Mega Altaria, Stallbreaker Mew, etc.

Zygarde-C is a threat that needs to be prepared for, just like anything else. IMO it's only broken in an Aegislash-centric meta; it'd be much more difficult for it to set up with Fairies running around.

It just surprises me that we're being so cautious about jumping the gun with any bans, or doing anything too soon, then this happens. The meta is only a few days old, and Zygarde is just the shiny new toy of the day. That's why everyone is using it. It's not versatile/splashable like, say Landorus-T or Keldeo. Does it work on stall teams? How about hyper offense?

The meta would have adapted, especially post-Aegislash.

Yeah, it absolutely did.

 

[Funbot28]

Is anything needs to go right now its this thing. Pheromosa is really to potent for the Sun and Moon OU environment due to its incredible STAB combination in conjunction with its great offensive stats and possibly the highest speed in the metagame (without factoring Scarf Pokemon). It also could again customize its set to actually gain Attack or Special Attack boosts with Beast Boost when it KOs a mon (which is not hard at all), and it also has access to U-turn which just lets it switch out of its counters/checks when it needs to. I feel Pheromosa is the main reason why Aegislash is really necessary on basically every team atm due to the fact that it is the only real counter to this monster. Maybe Aegislash will still be too centralizing even if Phero is no longer in the meta, but I feel we should at least see how the meta develops before we decide to look at all the other "potentially broken" suspects imo.

 

[Maysoon]

Unaware Clefable, Pixilate Hyper Voice Sylveon/Mega Garde/Mega Altaria, Stallbreaker Mew, etc.

Zygarde-C is a threat that needs to be prepared for, just like anything else. IMO it's only broken in an Aegislash-centric meta; it'd be much more difficult for it to set up with Fairies running around.

It just surprises me that we're being so cautious about jumping the gun with any bans, or doing anything too soon, then this happens. The meta is only a few days old, and Zygarde is just the shiny new toy of the day. That's why everyone is using it. It's not versatile/splashable like, say Landorus-T or Keldeo. Does it work on stall teams? How about hyper offense?

The meta would have adapted, especially post-Aegislash.

Zygarde works on every archetype because not only is it a bulky monster that can just coil in your face and eat hits for days. But it can run a dope dd+sub set and just clean stomp your team.

 

[JackTheGamer]

Unaware Clefable, Pixilate Hyper Voice Sylveon/Mega Garde/Mega Altaria, Stallbreaker Mew, etc.

Zygarde-C is a threat that needs to be prepared for, just like anything else. IMO it's only broken in an Aegislash-centric meta; it'd be much more difficult for it to set up with Fairies running around.

It just surprises me that we're being so cautious about jumping the gun with any bans, or doing anything too soon, then this happens. The meta is only a few days old, and Zygarde is just the shiny new toy of the day. That's why everyone is using it. It's not versatile/splashable like, say Landorus-T or Keldeo. Does it work on stall teams? How about hyper offense?

The meta would have adapted, especially post-Aegislash.

Yes, it does work on stall. And it doesn't need versatility, it has thousand arrows. Having a wopping one counter in unaware Clefable does not make it ok.

Anyway, I think Hoopa-U is a huge problem, at least right now. It obliterates the current hyper offensive teams, as well as balance teams. The thing is unreal. I do however, think we should wait to test it until aegis is gone and the meta has a chance to diversify to deal with it.

Genesect. I really thing people are overreacting about it. Does it hit hard? Yes. It's also relatively predictable, and with rocky helmet Toxapex around, U-turn spam is no longer a safe strategy.

Aegislash should only go if you are willing to send Pherromosa with it. They are basically two sides of the same coin. Aegis checks to much and Phero kills to much. Without aegis, Phero will have free reign over the whole meta.

 

[TDK]

I'm shocked that Zygarde was banned so quickly. Not just that, but quickbanned? Before Aegislash and Pheromosa?

It didn't deserve the ban, IMO. Not yet, at least. Once Aegislash is banned, Fairy-types will surge in usage. It's a surprise to nobody that the sword is holding them back in the meta. Would Zygarde still be broken with Fairies running around?

I don't understand what the OU council is doing. Unban Power Construct, quickban Aegislash and Pheromosa, and go from there. If the whole purpose of this 'suspect period' is to determine whether x mons are viable in OU, Zygarde got the short end of the stick.

What's the alternative? Do nothing for a few weeks/a month before suspecting or banning anything else? Most people seem to agree that Aegislash needs to go so the meta can stop suffocating and develop, so let's ban Zygarde instead and do nothing for a while.

The OU Council unanimously agreed Zygarde-Complete had no place in OU and should be banned alone and first. None of the other Pokemon in consideration reached anywhere near Zygarde's level of blatant brokenness nor is there even any unanimous agreement on how to handle the rest of the Pokemon in consideration; only with Zygarde. Zygarde-Complete had no reliable answers due to the fact it could very easily circumvent its few counters. Of the Pokemon you mention in your second post, Gardevoirite and Altarianite are not released in Sun and Moon currently and thus are not playable in this metagame. Sylveon is extremely unviable in the current metagame and it also fails to OHKO Zygarde-C while easily getting 2HKOd in return (if you're running max defense you fail to 2HKO standard DD and fail to 3HKO SDef Coil). Unaware Clefable fails to 3HKO Zygarde and only relies on PP stalling unless Calm Mind + Wish Protect is ran, in which case it does defeat standard Zygarde. In the short time of its existence, I have seen Zygarde run Toxic (Sub / Toxic / DD / Thousand Arrows) to handle Unaware Pokemon like Clefable and Quagsire, invalidating them as answers, and it really isn't that unreasonable of a set considering Zygarde-C's nature. Unaware Clefable is a solid answer though, regardless of the niche set. That alongside Bulk Up Tapu Bulu are really the the only answers, and Tapu Bulu relies on not getting crit in a matchup against Coil Zygarde. Obviously Zygarde does not start as Zygarde-Complete, but a boosting Zygarde with Thousand Arrows is still incredibly threatening and will be able to scare out most everything that can OHKO it from full. Zygarde-Complete was comparable to Mega Salamence in ORAS OU due to its incredible bulk and sweeping potential; it lacked the same immediate power, but had far superior bulk than Mega Salamence.

I really fail to see why you think Zygarde-C should be unbanned because it got too little time but Aegislash and Pheromosa should be banned right away. The majority of the Council don't even believe Pheromosa is the top target for a quick ban in the current metagame; at least while Aegislash is around. It's an incredibly strong Pokemon and most definitely Suspect worthy, should it get that far, but it isn't on the same level we want to hold for quick banning a Pokemon at this point in time. Aegislash, while a controversial unban, is not remotely close to what Zygarde-C could do. Both Zygarde-C and Aegislash had select answers, although most unreliable. Both forced the metagame to adapt to them in unreasonable way. The difference here is Zygarde-C is just flat out better than Aegislash. Zygarde itself was probably the best Aegislash counter in the game due to its incredible special bulk; Zygarde-C was able to handle an array of different relevant threats in the SM metagame while also being able to flat out win games regardless how a person decides to counteract Zygarde-C. Aegislash is very different than from when it was originally banned, this metagame has presented it with more answers and ways to handle it, even if it's still a top tier threat and probably fully deserving a ban, it just isn't what Zygarde-C is.

I really hate this kind of stuff, but this thread isn't really the place to debate this. If you want to carry our this conversation please feel free to start a conversation with the Council via PM.

 

[execution]

The zygarde ban was a good move in my opinion. I didnt see it coming but it was a good move regardless. It showed me that the council, while taking into consideration the opinion of the masses, isnt delagating the power they possess to the masses simply based on opinions.
That being said, the two most likely candidates to go next are pheromosa and aegislash and I will give my opnion on both right now.

Pheromosa

This thing is an absolute monster and deserves to be quick banned. Suspecting it is a waste of time. People highlight the fact that it has a select few of mons that stop it but they are thinking of the situation from a 1v1 perspective. Pheromosa is quite capable of annihilating offense without much thinking. The pokemon that can be used to stop it are limited and therefore on most teams you see only 1 pokemon that isn't destroyed by it. It leaves the wielder of pheromosa with quite a simply strategy, CLICK U-TURN AND BEAT THIS COUNTER/CHECK. The presence of pheromosa is so unhealthy, it instigates yet another problem. Aegislash has a spot reserved on every team. Other stops to Phero are not as realible. Marowak stops it nicely but a combination of stealth rock and u-turn along with pursuit trappers solves that problem easily. Toxapex is a momentum kills and phero can just u-turn into a mon like tapu lele who is an excellent partner to pheromosa because it prevents priority with its ability and nothing without a scarf outspeeds it. Speaking of scarf, it highlights another major problem with phero. It has an ability which can boost any of its offensive stats. You have a bulkier team? Its evs can be adjusted to allow for it to get attack or sp.atk boosts. You have scarfers to outspeed and kill? Ok no problem! 1 speed boost coming right up. The combination of its ability, stats and excellent coverage with bug/fighting/ice/poison leaves us with a nuisance damn near impossible to remedy.

Aegislash

I am in the majority with regards to my opnion on pheromosa. I am afraid the same cannot be said for aegislash. The shield and sword keeps many things in check and without it, quite frankly many pokemon become capable of running rampant. I also believe the argument that many use to counter that statement (being able to check a broken mon isn't a good reason to keep another broken mon). The problem with that is that aegislash imo is not a broken pokemon. That term is used too loosely. It was never broken. It was over-centralizing. A pokemon shouls never be quick banned due to being centralizing in my opinion. It does warrant a suspect test however. Though it does warrant a suspect test, it is not the time in my opinion to suspect test aegislash. This meta is very much new to us and i guarantee you that the only reason aegi is so common atm is because it is the only realible check to pheromosa. That being said, i believe after mons like pheromosa go, we see how the meta plays and if the issue remains then we suspect it. Aegi hits hard but not to the point where it is unbearable, it is very slow and it has a decent number of pokemon that beat it. Aegi does make a lot of pokemon bad as people like to day but i think they are thinking one sided because in doing so it also makes other pokemon get better. An excellent example is mandibuzz but more are present. People are just too afraid of change.

At the end of the day, whatever happens will only make us happy or upset for like a few days. None of us will stop playing simply because the ou council makes a decision we don't agree with. We will simply adjust. I look forward to seeing more opinions.

 

[JoeyVN]

Unaware Clefable, Pixilate Hyper Voice Sylveon/Mega Garde/Mega Altaria, Stallbreaker Mew, etc.

Zygarde-C is a threat that needs to be prepared for, just like anything else. IMO it's only broken in an Aegislash-centric meta; it'd be much more difficult for it to set up with Fairies running around.

It just surprises me that we're being so cautious about jumping the gun with any bans, or doing anything too soon, then this happens. The meta is only a few days old, and Zygarde is just the shiny new toy of the day. That's why everyone is using it. It's not versatile/splashable like, say Landorus-T or Keldeo. Does it work on stall teams? How about hyper offense?

The meta would have adapted, especially post-Aegislash.

Your argument makes sense. Its true that with Aegislash around, Faires are very restricted, thus Zygarde has the chance to run rampant. However, something with 216/121/95 bulk, great STAB in term of Thousand Arrows and priority Extreme Speed, is still too much for OU to handle. Banning it was a correct decision.

 

[KztxL7]

The majority of people seem to want Aegi, Phero, and Genesect gone. While that may change (I don't believe it will), if it stays the same why go through each suspect one at a time? Would repeating the Deoxys, MLucario, Genesect suspect be an option?

 

[Slimmer]

It's not just Clefable. Zygarde's bulk is amazing, but don't forget that its most common set is a mono-attacking Thousand Arrows off uninvested base 100 Attack.
Tangrowth counters it with HP Ice. Serperior can use it as setup bait. Plenty of mons don't care about Thousand Arrows unless it's boosted to +6 or something.

Zygarde doesn't play alone, and Serperior is really unviable in this metagame (it's outspeeded by Pheromosa, walled by Aegislash, it finds several checks as Scarf Genesect/Kartana or a more reliable Celesteela, Mega Pinsir can threaten it w/quick attack, Toxapex can Haze it easily, Alolan Muk/Marowak can threaten it as well, etc)

Tangrowth HP Ice is possible 5HKO without SpAtk investment, otherwise its 4HKO with max SpAtk+. Zygarde can easily PPstall it with Rest + Sleep Talk.

Seriously please, even Quagsire and Clefable could be PPStalled by just Rest unless running Curse/Calm Mind (Zygarde can just switch out in this case).

 

[X5Dragon]

If the debate is settling on who to suspect first and in what order I'm in favor of Pheromosa->Aegislash->Genesect, with Pheromosa derserving a quick ban. Aegislash will probably get banned even with a proper test but I'm still waiting on the meta reaction to so many good electrics running around, and genesect while being an awesome pokemon overall and good chances of getting download boosts, the meta is faster than him and it doesn't even take an SE attack to knock him out, but hey again we wait to see what a real SuMo OU looks like.

 

[VannAccessible]

I wouldn't be so quick to throw the ban hammer around at all these mons, as many things have changed since ORAS and we haven't let the meta settle. However, in my experience, at the very least, I believe 2 of these mons do deserve quick bans.

Aegislash: Same old problems, plus some new ones that make it even more difficult to deal with.
King's Shield presents the same 50/50 problems it always did. Its combination of power, bulk and coverage make difficult to switch into (Mandibuzz lol). SubToxic is still a thing to dick over its "counters." Two of its weaknesses can be negated by Rain (Increased effectiveness) and Tapu Bulu's Grassy Terrain, making Weakness Policy even more stupid. Restricts team building as there is absolutely no reason not to use it, and it is immediately overcentrallizing as a blanket check. Ban Aegislash.

Pheromosa: Insane speed, power, coverage, AND free boosts should be enough to instaban IMO, but then pair it with U-Turn and trappers, its few counters ineffective in the long run. Priority is a counter? Nope. Tapu Lele is a great partner and also handles Toxapex and Talonflame is now for the most part impractical. Ban Pheromosa.

I'd go as far to suspect the others after letting the meta settle, but these two are just a given for a quick ban.