Tournament OptiMons Open [Won by Jucherz]

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earl

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G-Luke said:
Butterfree has lots of checks and counters, and really its Veil that allowed Butterfree to rack up QD like that, as normally Butterfree doesn't have the bulk to safely get up to +2.
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It has better bulk than Volcarona (75/80 isn’t terrible, it’s enough to avoid getting OHKOed by coverage ala Naganadel) while having comparable power and no weakness whatsoever to stealth rock (or any passive damage for that matter). Additionally it doesn’t have a 4x weakness to rock so you can’t just slap a 101+ scarfer with stone edge on your team and consider yourself butterfree safe. And that’s just offensively, I don’t actually think it’s possible to counter defensively outside of whirlwind (which just delays the inevitable) or haze (which is primarily used by Toxapex, who loses to Free).

Dom summed it up well, it’s if Reuniclus and Volcarona had a baby that combined the upsides of both of them.
 
G-Luke

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leonard (from big bang theory) said:
It has better bulk than Volcarona (75/80 isn’t terrible, it’s enough to avoid getting OHKOed by coverage ala Naganadel) while having comparable power and no weakness whatsoever to stealth rock (or any passive damage for that matter). Additionally it doesn’t have a 4x weakness to rock so you can’t just slap a 101+ scarfer with stone edge on your team and consider yourself butterfree safe. And that’s just offensively, I don’t actually think it’s possible to counter defensively outside of whirlwind (which just delays the inevitable) or haze (which is primarily used by Toxapex, who loses to Free).

Dom summed it up well, it’s if Reuniclus and Volcarona had a baby that combined the upsides of both of them.
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Celesteela, Magearna, Mega Scizor, Wormadam-Trash, Chansey, and alot of other bulky Steels can easily beat Butterfree. And if it opts for Tinted Lens, it faces all of the same problems most sweepers / Bugs face, which is easily being worn down. And offensively most standard Scarfers do revenge kill it at +1, as well as plenty of strong priority options. Its better than Volcarona in standard, but it still has plenty of viable checks and counters.
 
earl

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G-Luke said:
Celesteela, Magearna, Mega Scizor, Wormadam-Trash, Chansey, and alot of other bulky Steels can easily beat Butterfree. And if it opts for Tinted Lens, it faces all of the same problems most sweepers / Bugs face, which is easily being worn down. And offensively most standard Scarfers do revenge kill it at +1, as well as plenty of strong priority options. Its better than Volcarona in standard, but it still has plenty of viable checks and counters.
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Dude if you watched the second replay you would’ve seen that Chansey straight up can’t beat it (roost on SToss until ur +6 and 2HKO), and Magearna is a special attacker+slower, doesn’t win unless Heart Swap, as it just loses the chip war as Butterfree has roost. Cele does win, so does Scizor and Wormadam (I think, not sure) but all of them are easily trapped by Magnezone.

Bringing up tinted lens doesn’t really argue against Magic Guard being any worse

What are these standard Scarfers that outspeed and OHKO at +1?

The only Priority that kills it would be Shadow Sneak (what good STAB users exist of this move outside of Mimikyu which doesn’t KO unless at +2, but disguise only works once when Free can set up many times) and Sucker Punch (which only has 8 PP and forces a 50/50, also not a lot of users)
 
G-Luke

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Oh I see, sorry I guess I dont usually have tournaments go to this route. Well I guess its the finals then.
 
G-Luke

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Congratulations to Jucherz! Now that the tournament is finished, charizard8888 I'll send a list of the Pokemon that been added since the commencement of the tournament. Now that this over, any thoughts on the current state of the meta? Any Pokemon that you think has been mediocre despite optimization? Any Pokemon that has been pushed beyond breaking point? Do you think the several new additions since the tournament's inception has nerfed, buffed or even borked any existing Optimized mon? I'll leave this open til the weekend's over for people to voice their thoughts.
 

dom

Banned deucer.
congrats Jucherz, slightly salty because i statistically should have taken at least 1/2 of the wins in our series but whatever, it be like that sometimes.
thoughts on the meta from finalist:
- dragalgae is extremely broken with poison melt. i should not need to run chansey on literally every team.
- lol butterfrees broken. see: my run
- uxie is waaaay too good of a tr setter. tr is broken bc of that. see: juscherz
- a lot of the optimons are underwhelming. like, i used hitmonlee and chan and they suck. lol. they just cant break past common ou walls.
- primarina is extremely unhealthy at the very least. stupidly spammable boomburst and with rain support is just too much. you cant even safely switch in chansey bc perishtrap. bannable imo
- veil / dual screens is good.
- wormadam-trash has potential to create a webs balance archetype. you wouldnt run webs balance in ou because the setters fucking suck but this one doesn't!
- clawitzer is very good. i dont think bannable but a top tier threat.
- mesperit is a slept on threat.
 
earl

earl

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dom said:
congrats Jucherz, slightly salty because i statistically should have taken at least 1/2 of the wins in our series but whatever, it be like that sometimes.
thoughts on the meta from finalist:
- dragalgae is extremely broken with poison melt. i should not need to run chansey on literally every team.
- lol butterfrees broken. see: my run
- uxie is waaaay too good of a tr setter. tr is broken bc of that. see: juscherz
- a lot of the optimons are underwhelming. like, i used hitmonlee and chan and they suck. lol. they just cant break past common ou walls.
- primarina is extremely unhealthy at the very least. stupidly spammable boomburst and with rain support is just too much. you cant even safely switch in chansey bc perishtrap. bannable imo
- veil / dual screens is good.
- wormadam-trash has potential to create a webs balance archetype. you wouldnt run webs balance in ou because the setters fucking suck but this one doesn't!
- clawitzer is very good. i dont think bannable but a top tier threat.
- mesperit is a slept on threat.
Click to expand...
I would like to second some of these thoughts and share some sets

Hitmonchan blows, 50/105/105 bulk is way worse than it looks on paper and fighting/fire is kind of redundant STAB coverage and loses to Lando, Mesprit, Pex, etc really easily

Mesprit is really solid, I basically treat it as a sort of bulkier(!) Clefable with an actual speed tier (outspeeding standard Bandtar with little investment is cool). Psychic typing doesn't really help it much but doesn't really hurt it either, physical Ghosts are a meme.

Mesprit @ Leftovers
Ability: Magic Guard
EVs: 248 HP / 232 Def / 28 Spe
Bold Nature
- Stealth Rock
- Recover
- Moonblast
- U-turn
252+ Atk Choice Band Zygarde Thousand Arrows vs. 248 HP / 232+ Def Mesprit: 135-159 (36.1 - 42.6%) -- 94.6% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Zygarde Thousand Arrows vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: 178-210 (45.1 - 53.2%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Like damn thick boy

I haven't tested or played against Primarina, but I'd assume that it's pretty similar to Clawitzer in being a dumb Water-type with 0 switch-ins (trades perish-trap for more raw power and U-turn+better speed). Which brings me to Clawitzer:

Clawitzer @ Life Orb
Ability: Mega Launcher
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
- Origin Pulse
- Dragon Pulse
- Aura Sphere
- U-turn
Nothing on offenses switches into Origin Pulse. Pex is 2HKO'd by Dragon Pulse. Aura Spere tickles Chansey, but U-Turn exists on an obvious switch so yeah. The speed tier isn't bad at all either for a breaker with manageable bulk. Dumb mon

Fuck Butterfree

No opinion on Dragalge cuz it was broken when I used it :(
 
G-Luke

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dom said:
congrats Jucherz, slightly salty because i statistically should have taken at least 1/2 of the wins in our series but whatever, it be like that sometimes.
thoughts on the meta from finalist:
- dragalgae is extremely broken with poison melt. i should not need to run chansey on literally every team.
- lol butterfrees broken. see: my run
- uxie is waaaay too good of a tr setter. tr is broken bc of that. see: juscherz
- a lot of the optimons are underwhelming. like, i used hitmonlee and chan and they suck. lol. they just cant break past common ou walls.
- primarina is extremely unhealthy at the very least. stupidly spammable boomburst and with rain support is just too much. you cant even safely switch in chansey bc perishtrap. bannable imo
- veil / dual screens is good.
- wormadam-trash has potential to create a webs balance archetype. you wouldnt run webs balance in ou because the setters fucking suck but this one doesn't!
- clawitzer is very good. i dont think bannable but a top tier threat.
- mesperit is a slept on threat.
Click to expand...
leonard (from big bang theory) said:
I would like to second some of these thoughts and share some sets

Hitmonchan blows, 50/105/105 bulk is way worse than it looks on paper and fighting/fire is kind of redundant STAB coverage and loses to Lando, Mesprit, Pex, etc really easily

Mesprit is really solid, I basically treat it as a sort of bulkier(!) Clefable with an actual speed tier (outspeeding standard Bandtar with little investment is cool). Psychic typing doesn't really help it much but doesn't really hurt it either, physical Ghosts are a meme.

Mesprit @ Leftovers
Ability: Magic Guard
EVs: 248 HP / 232 Def / 28 Spe
Bold Nature
- Stealth Rock
- Recover
- Moonblast
- U-turn
252+ Atk Choice Band Zygarde Thousand Arrows vs. 248 HP / 232+ Def Mesprit: 135-159 (36.1 - 42.6%) -- 94.6% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Zygarde Thousand Arrows vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: 178-210 (45.1 - 53.2%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Like damn thick boy

I haven't tested or played against Primarina, but I'd assume that it's pretty similar to Clawitzer in being a dumb Water-type with 0 switch-ins (trades perish-trap for more raw power and U-turn+better speed). Which brings me to Clawitzer:

Clawitzer @ Life Orb
Ability: Mega Launcher
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
- Origin Pulse
- Dragon Pulse
- Aura Sphere
- U-turn
Nothing on offenses switches into Origin Pulse. Pex is 2HKO'd by Dragon Pulse. Aura Spere tickles Chansey, but U-Turn exists on an obvious switch so yeah. The speed tier isn't bad at all either for a breaker with manageable bulk. Dumb mon

Fuck Butterfree

No opinion on Dragalge cuz it was broken when I used it :(
Click to expand...
Any thoughts on how the new additions can potentially impact the meta? Make matchups better or worse? I wanna know before nerfs / buffs are put in place and I'd like other's opinions.
 
G-Luke

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Ok, so with that being said, I have decided on nerfs for the more problematic Optimons, and a slate for buffing the (really) bad OptiMons will be implemented after this current slate is finished. The nerfs will be announced during the buffing slate.
 
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