Lower Tiers ORAS NU Viability Rankings

erisia

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Update time!

Gurdurr: A > A+
Omastar: A- > B+
Kabutops: B+ > B
Grumpig: B > B-
Klinklang: B- > C+
Simisage: C- > C
Vigoroth: C- > C
Throh: C- > D

We discussed Glalie thoroughly in the council meeting and while the reasoning posted in this thread was valid, we felt that Glalie's sheer lack of power compromised its wall as a wallbreaker compared to other Ice-types to a fatal degree. While Super Fang is a nice niche, Freeze Dry is simply not powerful enough to KO even frail neutral targets such as Haunter, even with a Life Orb, and Glalie often doesn't have room to run Ice Beam alongside it for this purpose (or vice versa). Furthermore, while Glalie can set Spikes, people who tried it out found that Glalie was rarely able to set more than one layer in a match due to its mediocre Speed, bulk, and bad defensive typing. Running a Focus Sash to counteract this makes Glalie even weaker. With us having voted on it three times in a row, we're going to put it in Ice-Cream rank for now.

We also discussed Hitmonchan and Hariyama alongside Gurdurr for rising to A+, people voted overwhelmingly against Hariyama rising further and were more split on Hitmonchan, but the outcome was still a solid no. That said, more discussion on Hitmonchan, Trevenant, and Vileplume in particular would be nice.
 

poh

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B+ --> A-

Vileplume has a lot going for it to enter the A ranks. Its consistency and reliability are this mons main selling points. It's a reliable answer for physical attackers and probably your best bet for Fighting types. Vileplume is also very consistent at spreading status: 30% chance of poisoning with Sludge Bomb, access to Sleep Powder and Effect Spore: 30% of statusing your opponent upon making contact. Other than being physically bulky and spreading status, Vileplume has reliable recovery with Synthesis/Moonlight and even passive recovery with Giga Drain which is always good. Other positives Vileplume has is the ability to absorb Toxic (Spikes), it can act as a cleric with Aromatherapy and Worry Seed lets you 1v1 mons like Malamar and Gurdurr. Looking at other defensive mons in the same rank like Steelix and Gastro, Plume is a more than worthy member alongside them. Something else noteworthy is that Vileplume isn't weak to Ground like Poison types are, yes Weezing isn't too but on the other hand Weezing can't absorb Toxic Spikes. Longevity wise Vileplume is the only Poison type in NU that has reliable recovery which means it can annoy your opponent from beginning to end. Lastly I want to point out that for a primarily defensive mon it can hit quite hard without investment as base 110 Spatk is not something to joke at. With the rise of Fighting types I think it's only fair to let this mon rise.

plume doing what it does best: http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/nu-467976795
 
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Threw

cohiba


Let's talk about Munchlax and why, in my humble opinion, it deserves to be ranked.

Here's the set I use:

Munchlax @ Eviolite
Ability: Thick Fat
EVs: 4 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpD
Careful Nature
- Curse
- Return
- Rest
- Sleep Talk

These EVs get the most out of Eviolite. You take neutral special hits 1-5% better with max HP than with none, but max Defense takes super effective physical hits a whopping 30% better than max HP (calcs below), which makes setting up a lot easier. That said, there is merit to running max HP if you really heavily depend on Lax's ability to take special hits. Return > Body Slam is non-negotiable because A) it has more PP, higher BP, and a lot of stuff outspeeds you when paralyzed anyway, but the most important thing is that B) paralyzing normal resists and Clear Smog Gastrodon instead of hitting them with Toxic, burn, or poison via T-Spikes is the worst possible scenario when trying to win with this thing.

252 SpA Choice Specs Swellow Boomburst vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Munchlax: 102-121 (21.5 - 25.5%) -- 99.9% chance to 4HKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Choice Specs Swellow Boomburst vs. 0 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Munchlax: 102-121 (24.8 - 29.4%) -- 0.3% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock

252+ Atk Hariyama Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Munchlax: 552-650 (116.4 - 137.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Hariyama Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 252 Def Eviolite Munchlax: 356-422 (86.6 - 102.6%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock


☭☭☭

Now, onto the proper argument about why Munchlax is more than worth using in NU and ranking on the VR.

1) It eats every non-super effective special attack in the tier.

The only special attacks that are capable of cleanly 2HKOing Munchlax are Focus Blasts from LO Combusken and Magmortar and Specs Poliwrath. Focus Blast in general is just something you want to keep it away from switching into, though. Fortunately, it's one of the most unreliable relevant moves in the game and every good user of the move is at most 2HKOed by unboosted Return after rocks and has no recovery. If Lax is 3HKOed, it just needs to get reasonably lucky with Sleep Talk rolls.

252 SpA Choice Specs Pyroar Hyper Voice vs. 0 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Munchlax: 105-124 (25.5 - 30.1%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
252+ SpA Life Orb Ludicolo Hydro Pump vs. 0 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Munchlax in Rain: 160-188 (38.9 - 45.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Shiftry Leaf Storm vs. 0 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Munchlax: 133-157 (32.3 - 38.1%) -- 97.2% chance to 3HKO


2) It's not as passive as you'd think.

A STAB Return coming off base 85 Atk, even uninvested, far from qualifies as free turns for the Fighting-types this mon forces in. The fact that they have no recovery also helps out. Gurdurr is the one thing that can come in at relatively little cost.

4 Atk Munchlax Return vs. 252 HP / 64 Def Eviolite Gurdurr: 69-82 (18.4 - 21.9%) -- possible 5HKO
4 Atk Munchlax Return vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Hariyama: 144-171 (33.5 - 39.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
4 Atk Munchlax Return vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Hitmonchan: 118-139 (48.7 - 57.4%) -- 92.6% chance to 2HKO


3) Its checks and counters mostly lack recovery and are easily worn down.

This partly goes hand-in-hand with the last point, but it's worth noting again that all the typical Normal resists and Fighting-types are weak to every kind of hazard and lack recovery entirely.

4) It doesn't require that much support and synergizes extremely well with the best Spikers, which maximize its effect.

All you technically need is Pursuit support, and even then it's only super important against teams with Ghost-types that stallbreak, because Lax can just PP stall out the rest in a pinch. That said, Spikes and Toxic spam are both extremely helpful to punish the multitude of switches this thing forces, which is where the fantastic natural synergy with Garbodor and Weezing becomes very helpful.

☭☭☭

I want to take the time to distinguish it from currently ranked mons that fill similar roles as physically oriented defensive boosters, especially Throh and Vigoroth.

The reason I actually considered Lax in the first place is because I wanted to try out Throh but was thoroughly disappointed by its complete lack of immediate power and not-actually-all-that-great special bulk. Yes, the whole phazing aspect of its attack is interesting and prevents opposing boosters from taking advantage of it, but there are so many threats even on the special end of the spectrum that force it out without need of boosts that using it is way more trouble than it's worth. The common weaknesses that come with Fighting typing are also unfortunate. To me, Lax represents a direct upgrade to Throh in a lot of ways; it hits significantly harder off the bat and can actually be depended on to have defensive utility and sponge a majority of the tier's special attacks throughout a match while being far more difficult to force out. The sheer amount of bulk Lax has prevents any opposing defensive boosters like CM Xatu and Musharna from winning 1v1 anyway.

252 SpA Choice Specs Swellow Boomburst vs. 0 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Munchlax: 102-121 (24.8 - 29.4%) -- 0.3% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Choice Specs Swellow Boomburst vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Throh: 153-180 (34.4 - 40.5%) -- 97.1% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
0 Atk Throh Circle Throw vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Swellow: 97-115 (37.1 - 44%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
4 Atk Munchlax Return vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Swellow: 144-171 (55.1 - 65.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO


Its advantage over Vigoroth is pretty much the same: much better special bulk, to put it simply. Depite the fact that they're both specially defensive physical boosters, they serve very different purposes and largely fit on different types of teams, meaning there's very little overlap between them. Vigoroth is still a really cool mon that's more than worth using, but it doesn't give Lax competition for team slots in the slightest.


Now for the obligatory replay. I had a second, more high-level one but I forgot to save it :( However, I think this replay still adequately shows how threatening this thing potentially is. Obviously not everyone will let you burn their Lix T1, but this shows just how easy setting up and winning is if they don't have a Ghost and you've statused their Normal resist. If you still doubt whether Lax can cut it, I can get another one or you can chall me.

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/nu-467198337 (Disclaimer: at the time of this replay, I was using max HP rather than max Defense)

So yeah, Munchlax to C-/D
 
One word for this mon. Underwhelming. Most tier shift drops are hyped due to possibility that those mons will be meta-changing. Unlike Gurdurr's successful comeback, Trev's entry in NU isnt as much as appreciated. Despite its movepool, its has very mediocre stats with an awful speed tier, which makes it have a hard time fulfilling it's role. The Band set hits quite hard and chip some opponents down or even lure and ko some mons (in the case of Zard,Pyroar,etc.). With that being said, it still cant score 2HKOs to its many common checks like Vileplume and Weezing (and more), is hurt terribly by recoil with it's only hard hitting move and is easily revenge killed by a plethora of faster threats, and needs much support offensively and defensively. Plus, almost every band mon just outclass it because they can effectively dent their checks heavily which is either due to their better stats and more reliable stabs. I also have seen the SubSeed+WoW+Filler Harvest set and can also put in to work, but Trevenant's bulk isnt that great whereas Exegg can particularly do a better job. All in all, Trev's got it's niche out of Natural Cure and Harvest, but really has a hard time adapting and capitalizing in the meta.
 

Disjunction

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OK, hi, sorry for the long wait, but I'm able to respond to the previous discussion about changing up the VR. If you're here to discuss regular changes to the VR, please feel free to continue your discussions and I'll try my best to stay out of your way.

After having a couple of nights to sleep on it, and having heard several different arguments from both sides, I'm inclined to agree that the current VR system is necessary. I'm not a huge fan of it for the aforementioned reasons in my previous posts, but I think a handful of users have done a good job outlining its proposed purpose and functionality. I think Hootie put it best a few nights ago when he described the current system as a way to display what the current metagame looks like. I don't think any other system could accurately display the dominating forces in the meta as well as the current system can.

However, as indicated by the strawpoll, there's still a large majority of people that want to see at least a small amount of change come S/M. I think changes to this current system could be a different conversation altogether, and I'm still interested in having a system that's able to represent and compare Pokemon of similar niches. I think the Role Compendium would be the best resource to modify with some variation of my proposed system. Maybe something like this for each mon in alphabetical order
Code:
Archeops
Stealth Rock (Offensive): A
Hazard Control (Offensive) (Defog): D
Fire Check (Offensive): B
Normal Check (Offensive): C
Stallbreaker (Taunt): B
Wallbreaker: S
These are mostly placeholder ranks, but I think they display the kind of system I'm envisioning pretty well. This would change the system so instead of saying "Archeops is a wallbreaker" it shows that "Archeops is a great wallbreaker." Conversely, you can just have the mons listed in the categories themselves and order them in terms of effectiveness. That kind of system would almost be like a bunch of mini VRs, so idk how much I would enjoy how messy it could end up. Oh, and I know this topic has kind of breached the walls of this thread and has moved to different territory, so maybe we could move the topic to the role compendium if people like this idea and have constructive criticism for it?

I don't want to just abandon the idea that it's important to have an easy way of classifying each mon's list of niches and how good they are at them. However, like Josh said, it's a good idea to keep it separated from the main VR because it dilutes the original purpose by a fair margin. Ideally, I'd like new players to look first at a list like this, think "huh, X mon is really good, I wonder why," come over to this thread and see "Oh, it's because it can fill a lot of niches well on a team and is a powerful wallbreake," and then move to get sets and understand its shortcomings from the analysis. Resources working hand in hand like that would make introducing new players into the tier significantly easier, in my opinion.
 
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-> B+ -> A- | SUPPORT

Effect Spore is broken. Seriously though, 30% to either Sleep / Paralyze / Poison is great albeit having to rely on chance, 30% certainly isn't low (Scald, which is basically, 100%, right?) and can cripple things permanently throughout the rest of the match. Its typing is really good too, being able to check Fighting Types, namely Hariyama and Gurdurr is a huge plus side, especially considering their usage and is also able absorb Toxic Spikes. Outside of that, its also able to check things such as Shiftry, Liepard, Non Fire Blast Mega Audino and SD Samurott. Having access to a 110 Special Attack is actually really great too which makes it able to have some offensive presence. Finally, outside of its typing, ability and somewhat high Special Attack, it's movepull fulfils the conditions for a defensive role: Sleep Power and Stun Spore allow it to cripple foes a bit more reliably than Effect Spore, Aromatherapy allows it to heal of its own and its teams status and finally Moonlight / Synthesis gives it access to reliable recovery. This is just basically really good right now. Agreat typing allows Vileplume to check a plethora of stuff, mainly Fighting types, especially in a tier where they are more or less dominant, a good Special Attack and a pretty decent move-pull with a somewhat wide range of options.

-> A -> A+ | SUPPORT

Yes. Arguably, this thing is better than all of the stuff currently in A. LO has a really strong Attack input, pair that with Iron Fist where as Assault Vest hands it that useful added Special Defense allowing it to check more Special Attackers. Mach Punch / Rapid Spin are the things that really sell this to me. Iron Fist boosted STAB Mach Punch paired with LO is able to OHKO / 2HKO a bunch of threats including but not limited to Pyroar, Swellow, Jynx, Liepard and Shiftry. Hitmonchan has a favourable match-up against a decent amount of Hazard Setters (Regirock, Steelix, Aurorus, etc) allowing it to spin and or deal scary damage towards them. I don't really have much to say about this other than it can be a really scary offensive threat. In the end, Rapid Spin is what sets it apart from most fighting types in the tier and the fact that it's able to do it so consistently. Despite being annoyed by Ghost and Poison type Pokemon, it has a favourable match-up against a good chunk of the tier hence I feel like this is worthy of A+.
 

Punchshroom

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I think the Role Compendium would be the best resource to modify with some variation of my proposed system. Maybe something like this for each mon in alphabetical order
Code:
Archeops
Stealth Rock (Offensive): A
Hazard Control (Offensive) (Defog): D
Fire Check (Offensive): B
Normal Check (Offensive): C
Stallbreaker (Taunt): B
Wallbreaker: S
So...basically this? If so, I'd probably advise to keep your system separate from both the VR and Role Compendium threads (since they have their own systems) and just establish a new one detailing the viability of the individual sets. I can help you with this if you wish.

Trevenant to C-: Already talked about how much cons this mon has compared to its pros. Frankly I'm skeptical of keeping this ranked but I'll be lenient. Next.

Vileplume to A-: Vileplume has always been respectable about the way it just takes care of itself, as well as its teammates. Reliable recovery, being one of the best Fighting sponges, and most of all Effect Spore gives it considerable defensive presence, and we know how painful Vileplume's uninvested dual STABs can be to most neutral targets. However, Vileplume's support extends even further depending on the last move you give it: Sleep Powder lets Plume cripple something and makes switches even harder for the opponent, Aromatherapy Plume offers clerical support as well be a decent Scald switch-in, HP Ground/Fire lets Plume 1v1 mons that don't mind its STAB, and Worry Seed shuts down a variety of bulky boosters and other mons reliant on Rest (like Bronzor). A reliable, self-sufficient bulky Pokemon with versatile support options warrants a rise in Rank.

Hitmonchan to A+: Hitmonchan is bar none one of the best role compression mons in the tier: Rapid Spin + Fighting STAB pairs well with most Flyers, and Mach Punch is highly valuable priority, being so influential that pretty much any setup sweeper weak to Fighting is automatically pegged down a notch in effectiveness. Being a Rapid Spinner that can check a multitude of mons (depending on its set & item) gives it a lot of utility that most teams would be hard pressed to ignore.
 

Blast

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You could try something like this:

It still clearly displays the metagame from best to worst mons but separates mons by their "primary" category. Granted ik most Pokemon are ranked for prowess in multiple categories but generally they can still root back to one main area, e.g. Hariyama is very useful defensively but it ultimately roots down to being an offensive Pokemon with a strong defensive niche.

I really don't like set VRs though, it would just be a headache having to scrutinize through every set and it makes everything even more subjective than it already is lol
 
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twinkay

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best pokemon design ever
Not sure where the discussion for Liepard to A- went but I'd like to bring that up again as there wasn't much argument against it.

Pard sits at amazing speed tier, outspeeding base 105s like Mismag and tying with Pyroar. (For reference, the only NU-tiered mons it doesn't outspeed or tie are Tauros, Archeops, and Swellow, which are still pretty common but being able to outspeed almost all of the tier is nice.) STAB Knock Off and Sucker Punch is pretty hard to deal with and gives Pard a distinct advantage against common mons such as Xatu, Jynx, and Rotom. Also a great utilty in U-turn means that Pard can get out of unfavorable matchups while still doing damage. Another main appeal of using Liepard is that it has a fantastic ability in Prankster and couple with a good support movepool such as T-Wave, Encore, and Rain Dance / Sunny Day. The threat of Encore means that you can't safely set up on Liepard or in general with Pard around, and T-Wave is a good move that stops a myriad of offensive threats.

Other than offensive support, Pard has many other sets. As I mentioned before, Prankster + Weather makes it a staple on Rain / Sun teams, since it basically ensures that the weather will get set up. Another set Pard can run is NP + Copycat sweeper which works very well in certain scenarios. Nasty Plot give Dark Pulse a big boost in power. And, after using Dark Pulse, you can no longer be revenged by Scarfers or Tauros because Copycat copies Dark Pulse and has priority thanks to Prankster. And CB makes it so that Liepard hits much harder than before and makes Pard difficult to switch into, especially coupled with its amazing coverage--hitting Quag and Gastrodon with Seed Bomb, Chan and Primeape with Play Rough, or M-Dino with Gunk Shot.

I can imagine most of the arguments would be about how underwhelming Pard's offenses are and how frail it is. The fact is, although Pard definitely misses out on some OHKOes, it's more meant to be used late game than early-game, when the opponent's mons are



weakened enough so that Liepard can come in and clean with its great speed tier. Liepard is frail, but it, again, isn't meant to switch into things and it can actually take most non-super effective (and even super effective) priority from full.

252+ Atk Samurott Aqua Jet vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Liepard: 103-123 (38.2 - 45.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
4 Atk Life Orb Abomasnow Ice Shard vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Liepard: 91-109 (33.8 - 40.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after hail damage
252+ Atk Toxic Boost Zangoose Quick Attack vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Liepard: 169-201 (62.8 - 74.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Poliwrath Vacuum Wave vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Liepard: 168-198 (62.4 - 73.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Gurdurr Mach Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Liepard: 216-254 (80.2 - 94.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (don't stay in against Gurdurrs)

On a more personal note, I feel like Pard just fits on a lot of offensive playstyles in the current meta. It's fast, versatile, beats Psychics, can pivot, and Dark is a good typing. It's pretty popular right now so I believe, in conclusion, Liepard deserves to move u
p.
e: somehow forgot to mention Pursuit but yeah it basically means that you win versus any non-Colbur mon that you can hit hard with Pursuit and beats a lot of top tier pokemon (Mesp, Jynx, Rotom)
 
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Abejas

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best pokemon design ever
Not sure where the discussion for Liepard to A- went but I'd like to bring that up again as there wasn't much argument against it.

Pard sits at amazing speed tier, outspeeding base 105s like Mismag and tying with Pyroar. (For reference, the only NU-tiered mons it doesn't outspeed or tie are Tauros, Archeops, and Swellow, which are still pretty common but being able to outspeed almost all of the tier is nice.) STAB Knock Off and Sucker Punch is pretty hard to deal with and gives Pard a distinct advantage against common mons such as Xatu, Jynx, and Rotom. Also a great utilty in U-turn means that Pard can get out of unfavorable matchups while still doing damage. Another main appeal of using Liepard is that it has a fantastic ability in Prankster and couple with a good support movepool such as T-Wave, Encore, and Rain Dance / Sunny Day. The threat of Encore means that you can't safely set up on Liepard or in general with Pard around, and T-Wave is a good move that stops a myriad of offensive threats.

Other than offensive support, Pard has many other sets. As I mentioned before, Prankster + Weather makes it a staple on Rain / Sun teams, since it basically ensures that the weather will get set up. Another set Pard can run is NP + Copycat sweeper which works very well in certain scenarios. Nasty Plot give Dark Pulse a big boost in power. And, after using Dark Pulse, you can no longer be revenged by Scarfers or Tauros because Copycat copies Dark Pulse and has priority thanks to Prankster. And CB makes it so that Liepard hits much harder than before and makes Pard difficult to switch into, especially coupled with its amazing coverage--hitting Quag and Gastrodon with Seed Bomb, Chan and Primeape with Play Rough, or M-Dino with Gunk Shot.

I can imagine most of the arguments would be about how underwhelming Pard's offenses are and how frail it is. The fact is, although Pard definitely misses out on some OHKOes, it's more meant to be used late game than early-game, when the opponent's mons are weakened enough so that Liepard can come in and clean with its great speed tier. Liepard is frail, but it, again, isn't meant to switch into things and it can actually take most non-super effective (and even super effective) priority from full.

252+ Atk Samurott Aqua Jet vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Liepard: 103-123 (38.2 - 45.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
4 Atk Life Orb Abomasnow Ice Shard vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Liepard: 91-109 (33.8 - 40.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after hail damage
252+ Atk Toxic Boost Zangoose Quick Attack vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Liepard: 169-201 (62.8 - 74.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Poliwrath Vacuum Wave vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Liepard: 168-198 (62.4 - 73.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Gurdurr Mach Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Liepard: 216-254 (80.2 - 94.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (don't stay in against Gurdurrs)

On a more personal note, I feel like Pard just fits on a lot of offensive playstyles in the current meta. It's fast, versatile, beats Psychics, can pivot, and Dark is a good typing. It's pretty popular right now so I believe, in conclusion, Liepard deserves to move u
p.
Hey I personally agree with all these points but
Another main appeal of using Liepard is that it has a fantastic ability in Prankster and couple with a good support movepool such as T-Wave
this is just a big nono, wasting a moveslot, thing that liepard really needs on something like t-wave is just not worth it since you either lose on a another neccesary support move like encore or u-turn or you miss on necesary coverage like seed bomb or others. I get t-wave is busted but liepard doesnt have the room to run it or at least it shouldn't. Besides that, like I said before I agree on all the rest of the points and would support it be going up to A- for all the things it can do.
 
Electivire: B- => B+

Electivire is a very underrated Pokemon in the NU metagame, possessing a variety of traits that make it a very powerful and versatile member of any team. Electivire is usually run as a sweeper, but as a sweeper, it can be run with many different sets like Life Orb, Expert Belt, Choice Band, Specs, Or Scarf, and also possibly Air Balloon for certain sets. Its movepool is one of the most flexible in the tier, containing strong physical moves like Earthquake, Wild Charge, Fire Punch, Cross Chop, Double Edge, Ice Punch, Rock Slide, Power-Up Punch, and Seismic Toss, which can be used either in a banded or scarfed set, in an expert belt set alone or with its strong special movepool including Thunderbolt, Flamethrower, Focus Blast, Signal Beam, Psychic, and of course, Volt Switch for choice sets. While some may say that Electivire's mediocre defense and special defense stats are reason for it to be placed in B-, its high speed and attack make up for that with the capability to outspeed many of NU's threats including Jynx, Rotom, Primeape, and Zangoose. Archeops, Tauros, Miltank, and other speedier EQ users can do damage to Electivire, but it can easily counter any of those with a Rock Slide for Archeops and a simple Cross Chop for the Tauros or Miltank, providing that it is either max speed and the opponent is not, or that it is a scarfed set which is not very common anymore. Overall, Electivire's flexibility within the tier makes it a threat to any team it may face, with a viable movepool that can take on any team and lead a possible sweep.
 
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best pokemon design ever
Not sure where the discussion for Liepard to A- went but I'd like to bring that up again as there wasn't much argument against it.

Pard sits at amazing speed tier, outspeeding base 105s like Mismag and tying with Pyroar. (For reference, the only NU-tiered mons it doesn't outspeed or tie are Tauros, Archeops, and Swellow, which are still pretty common but being able to outspeed almost all of the tier is nice.) STAB Knock Off and Sucker Punch is pretty hard to deal with and gives Pard a distinct advantage against common mons such as Xatu, Jynx, and Rotom. Also a great utilty in U-turn means that Pard can get out of unfavorable matchups while still doing damage. Another main appeal of using Liepard is that it has a fantastic ability in Prankster and couple with a good support movepool such as T-Wave, Encore, and Rain Dance / Sunny Day. The threat of Encore means that you can't safely set up on Liepard or in general with Pard around, and T-Wave is a good move that stops a myriad of offensive threats.

Other than offensive support, Pard has many other sets. As I mentioned before, Prankster + Weather makes it a staple on Rain / Sun teams, since it basically ensures that the weather will get set up. Another set Pard can run is NP + Copycat sweeper which works very well in certain scenarios. Nasty Plot give Dark Pulse a big boost in power. And, after using Dark Pulse, you can no longer be revenged by Scarfers or Tauros because Copycat copies Dark Pulse and has priority thanks to Prankster. And CB makes it so that Liepard hits much harder than before and makes Pard difficult to switch into, especially coupled with its amazing coverage--hitting Quag and Gastrodon with Seed Bomb, Chan and Primeape with Play Rough, or M-Dino with Gunk Shot.

I can imagine most of the arguments would be about how underwhelming Pard's offenses are and how frail it is. The fact is, although Pard definitely misses out on some OHKOes, it's more meant to be used late game than early-game, when the opponent's mons are weakened enough so that Liepard can come in and clean with its great speed tier. Liepard is frail, but it, again, isn't meant to switch into things and it can actually take most non-super effective (and even super effective) priority from full.

252+ Atk Samurott Aqua Jet vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Liepard: 103-123 (38.2 - 45.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
4 Atk Life Orb Abomasnow Ice Shard vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Liepard: 91-109 (33.8 - 40.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after hail damage
252+ Atk Toxic Boost Zangoose Quick Attack vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Liepard: 169-201 (62.8 - 74.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Poliwrath Vacuum Wave vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Liepard: 168-198 (62.4 - 73.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Gurdurr Mach Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Liepard: 216-254 (80.2 - 94.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (don't stay in against Gurdurrs)

On a more personal note, I feel like Pard just fits on a lot of offensive playstyles in the current meta. It's fast, versatile, beats Psychics, can pivot, and Dark is a good typing. It's pretty popular right now so I believe, in conclusion, Liepard deserves to move u
p.
Couldn't agree more, Pard's place in NU is underrated with it being able to run a variety of different sets with Prankster, especially Copycat, Encore, or Weather.
 

Disjunction

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I support Liepard for a rise as well. I think we're all well-aware of what Liepard is able to do, but I think it's better represented in the A-ranks because of the increased effectiveness of Pursuit. Liepard being arguably the most effective Pursuit trapper right now is really the only reason I would support it to rise.

Oh and I wholeheartedly support any Trevenant drop and Vileplume rise. Trev is pathetically outclassed, underpowered, and outmatched against the majority of the metagame right now. If you want a bulky physical spinblocker, you're probably looking for Golurk or even Dusknoir. If you want a strong, physical offensive Grass-type, you're almost definitely looking for Tort or Sawsbuck.

Plume isn't a hard wall to much of anything anymore outside of Gurdurr/Yama, but what it provides to a team is arguably the best glue slot in the tier. It's a soft check to probably over half the tier because its solid bulk, reliable recovery, Effect Spore, and Sleep Power. Soft fighter, water, tauros, lilligant, rhydon, kangaskhan, etc check in one slot is impressive. ik it's been rising and falling since the beginning of 6th gen, but that isn't going to stop me from supporting another rise this close to sun/moon.
 
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passion

heavenly :)
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"No human being will ever know the Truth, for even if they happen to say it by chance, they would not even known they had done so" - Xenophanes. Ever since the introduction of Vileplume in Pokemon Blue on October 10th, 1996, it was clear that it was a very solid Pokemon. Twenty years later Vileplume would cement itself as one of the greatest Omega Ruby Alpha Saphire Neverused Pokemon of all time. Relatively impressive defensive and offensive statistics to fit with a typing that is good both offensively and defensively, as well as it's good movepool making it one of the most versatile Pokemon to ever grace the game. Furthermore within the fifth generation of Pokemon it learned picked up the most broken ability of all time as a sort of hidden technique. Although Vileplume is not given the proper recognition from the figureheads of the NeverUsed viability ranking threads, it is clear that Vileplume is actually S-rank worthy because of its fantastic versatility and its inherently broken secret ability.

Over the years many it has become that the many of the best Pokemon in all tiers have the versatility to run many different sets, such as Clefable in Overused, Hydregion in Underused, and Flygon in Rarelyused. All of these examples fall into the S Rank of the viability rankings in their respective tiers because of this versatility, so I ask what stops Vileplume, a Pokemon more viable than all of these other examples combined, stuck within the dominion of A- ranking? Vileplume is able to run many fantastic defensive and offensive sets, including unkillable physically defensive, tank offensive, life orb, specs, sub ingrain leech seed, offensive swords dance, substitute bulky swords dance, grass terrain, sunny day chlorophyll, etc. The last one is not recommended, as it gets rid of the most broken ability of all time, so it is a waste of the best Pokemon in the tier. There is no single Pokemon that counters all of these sets, so every time it gets in for the first time it becomes a guessing game. It also has a good moveset to add to this versatility. This moveset includes two more broken things, Sleep Powder and Sludge Bomb. Sleep is a bad mechanic and can only be stopped by switching a grass type, Xatu, or luck. Luck is not something to depend on and Sludge Bomb kills all grass types and poisons Xatu if they even think about switching in. Vileplume can use its other a million other moves as well making it effectively unstoppable.

Another staple on Pokemon residing in the S ranks is fantastic abilities, Intimidate Landorus Therian form, Regenerator Alomomola, and Desolate Land Primal Groudon are great examples of this. Since Effect Spore is better than all of these abilities, it baffles me that Vileplume is not considered to be the best Pokemon in the Neverused tier system. To explain, Effect Spore is an ability that gives a thirty percent chance to poison, paralyze, or sleep the opposing Pokemon on contact. This ability makes every physical attack in the game completely worthless because Vileplume can just switch into anything and make it worthless. Some of the best moves in the game, Knock Off, any fighting attack, Seismic Toss, U-turn, and many many more are worthless with Vileplume on the battlefield. The fear instilled in people because of Effect Spore makes Vileplume unarguably the strongest spinblocker within the Neverused tier. This hidden technique from Vileplume has traumatized me to the point where I have made the executive decision to only use Special Attacks, so Vileplume the most broken Pokemon of all time cannot put my lovely Pokemon to sleep when one of my them makes physical contact with it. Effect Spore is the greatest ability of all time, it makes some of the strongest abilities like Intimidate, Magic Guard, Huge Power, etc. look like pure garbage. If given the chance to put either Effect Spore or Wonder Guard on every Pokemon I used for the rest of my life, I would pick Effect Spore without having to think about it.

In conclusion Vileplume should be added to the S rankings of the Neverused tier because of its ridiculous versatility and broken ability. Vileplume is without a doubt the strongest Pokemon in the Neverused tier, but many of the figureheads of this thread refuse to accept this. It is time for a change to be made. If Vileplume was finally able to burst into S rank after years of oppression, it would open the gates for many other Pokemon being held back by the system to improve their placement on the ranking system. Furthermore it would stop the spreading of blatant misinformation to newer players who are ignorant to the overwhelming dominance Vileplume has over the Neverused tier. I hope this post is able to open the 3rd eye of Vileplume haters because at this point Vileplume's S rankness cannot be denied.
 
"No human being will ever know the Truth, for even if they happen to say it by chance, they would not even known they had done so" - Xenophanes. Ever since the introduction of Vileplume in Pokemon Blue on October 10th, 1996, it was clear that it was a very solid Pokemon. Twenty years later Vileplume would cement itself as one of the greatest Omega Ruby Alpha Saphire Neverused Pokemon of all time. Relatively impressive defensive and offensive statistics to fit with a typing that is good both offensively and defensively, as well as it's good movepool making it one of the most versatile Pokemon to ever grace the game. Furthermore within the fifth generation of Pokemon it learned picked up the most broken ability of all time as a sort of hidden technique. Although Vileplume is not given the proper recognition from the figureheads of the NeverUsed viability ranking threads, it is clear that Vileplume is actually S-rank worthy because of its fantastic versatility and its inherently broken secret ability.

Over the years many it has become that the many of the best Pokemon in all tiers have the versatility to run many different sets, such as Clefable in Overused, Hydregion in Underused, and Flygon in Rarelyused. All of these examples fall into the S Rank of the viability rankings in their respective tiers because of this versatility, so I ask what stops Vileplume, a Pokemon more viable than all of these other examples combined, stuck within the dominion of A- ranking? Vileplume is able to run many fantastic defensive and offensive sets, including unkillable physically defensive, tank offensive, life orb, specs, sub ingrain leech seed, offensive swords dance, substitute bulky swords dance, grass terrain, sunny day chlorophyll, etc. The last one is not recommended, as it gets rid of the most broken ability of all time, so it is a waste of the best Pokemon in the tier. There is no single Pokemon that counters all of these sets, so every time it gets in for the first time it becomes a guessing game. It also has a good moveset to add to this versatility. This moveset includes two more broken things, Sleep Powder and Sludge Bomb. Sleep is a bad mechanic and can only be stopped by switching a grass type, Xatu, or luck. Luck is not something to depend on and Sludge Bomb kills all grass types and poisons Xatu if they even think about switching in. Vileplume can use its other a million other moves as well making it effectively unstoppable.

Another staple on Pokemon residing in the S ranks is fantastic abilities, Intimidate Landorus Therian form, Regenerator Alomomola, and Desolate Land Primal Groudon are great examples of this. Since Effect Spore is better than all of these abilities, it baffles me that Vileplume is not considered to be the best Pokemon in the Neverused tier system. To explain, Effect Spore is an ability that gives a thirty percent chance to poison, paralyze, or sleep the opposing Pokemon on contact. This ability makes every physical attack in the game completely worthless because Vileplume can just switch into anything and make it worthless. Some of the best moves in the game, Knock Off, any fighting attack, Seismic Toss, U-turn, and many many more are worthless with Vileplume on the battlefield. The fear instilled in people because of Effect Spore makes Vileplume unarguably the strongest spinblocker within the Neverused tier. This hidden technique from Vileplume has traumatized me to the point where I have made the executive decision to only use Special Attacks, so Vileplume the most broken Pokemon of all time cannot put my lovely Pokemon to sleep when one of my them makes physical contact with it. Effect Spore is the greatest ability of all time, it makes some of the strongest abilities like Intimidate, Magic Guard, Huge Power, etc. look like pure garbage. If given the chance to put either Effect Spore or Wonder Guard on every Pokemon I used for the rest of my life, I would pick Effect Spore without having to think about it.

In conclusion Vileplume should be added to the S rankings of the Neverused tier because of its ridiculous versatility and broken ability. Vileplume is without a doubt the strongest Pokemon in the Neverused tier, but many of the figureheads of this thread refuse to accept this. It is time for a change to be made. If Vileplume was finally able to burst into S rank after years of oppression, it would open the gates for many other Pokemon being held back by the system to improve their placement on the ranking system. Furthermore it would stop the spreading of blatant misinformation to newer players who are ignorant to the overwhelming dominance Vileplume has over the Neverused tier. I hope this post is able to open the 3rd eye of Vileplume haters because at this point Vileplume's S rankness cannot be denied.
My name is ADVANTAGE, and I approve this message.
PS. NU mods are corrupt
 
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Kache

Banned deucer.
In all seriousness Vileplume fits much better with common defensive/tanky Pokémon in A and A- like Lanturn, Hariyama, Weezing, and Gastrodon. It's a staple on balanced teams just as much as these Pokémon. We all know how well it does its job of checking fighting types, but it also checks water and grass and has offensive presence and Effect Spore, which means it will put in work in almost every game. Meanwhile the type of teams Vileplume fits onto are very easily able to cover its checks and counters, so that it rarely loses momentum. No reason for it to be so low other than maybe racism.

Also why is Steelix in A-? That's another really confusing one. Yeah I get "meta trends" and everything but come on- it's a Steelix. It walls half the tier and fits on every team. Definitely more influential Pokémon than Ludicilo and Piloswine, (no disrespect intended towards them).

Edit: oops I guess I just repeated what Disjunction said
 

erisia

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Small update:

Liepard: B+ > A-
Vileplume: B+ > A-
Trevenant: C+ > C-

The majority voted against Hitmonchan and Munchlax rising but there wasn't a huge amount of discussion about it so I'd like to see some counter-arguments against Munchlax posted if possible. The general consensus with Hitmonchan was that it was fine at A rank as although it has many positive attributes, it also has drawbacks compared to other Fighting-types such as a lack of Knock Off, vulnerability to burns, and poor physical bulk compared to say Gurdurr.
 

shiloh

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Tiering Lead
chan should def be a+

when it was brought up for a+ idk if bulk up was brought up, but since using it w/ bulk up its honestly such an amazing balance breaker that alone merits it to rise a rank. the combo of drain punch / ice punch is an amazing balance breaker atm and destroys common builds easily.

lets look at some nlt teams just to see wha chan can do vs them:

- the face of ladder atm, teddeh's team is increasingly common and keeps proving its worth as the top nu balance team atm, covering all the basic roles of balance & mons. once chan sets up a bulk up however, there is not much this team can do. clef is really the only thing that can take a hit but once that is chipped to ~65 it wont be able to tank an ice punch. everything else dies w/ rocks up and a +1 boost or cant touch chan after the boost.

- similar balance build, similar reliance on a single mon in clef in order to handle it and once again falls once that is chipped.

- another balance build, this time with a few better checks in mawile&zard, however both have no recovery and mawile is neutral to fighting allowing them to be chipped fairly easily. can set up on lanturn / chan pretty easily if it can avoid scalds.

- this team only really has scyther in order to tank hits, with regi / skunk being easy set up fodder for chan.

- another team w/ only scyther in order to deal with it, and the same core of regi / skunk in order to take advantage of

- this team actually has a garb in order to deter it from being swept, but playing smartly and chipping with ice punch / other mons could lead to an easier breaking.

these are just the balance teams i found in the thread w/ a bit of lazy analysis to go with it, but it shows how well bulk up chan can break balance & this if anything should be the reason that it rises to A+ along with how good it is as a spinner in the current spike stacking metagame.

some fun replays w/ bu chan

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/nu-463584153
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-nu-210931
 
alright, i guess since oras is done ill give my final thoughts on this vr...


s rank - i think everything can probably stay. if anything should move down it should probably be jynx, given how much the metagame has adapted to it, but at the same time its still a threat to p much every team that doesnt have a bronzor or something like that. given how common priority is and how it can barely switch in on anything keeps this thing in line though i think.

a+ rank - i honestly think archeops should move down, the sash set is pretty bad even on ho, pretty much anything is a better hazard cleaner than it since it constantly relies on roost and the other sr weak hazard cleaners are at least somewhat useful defensively..mix sets are probably the best to use imo, but the metagame is still really unkind to it especially when its not even a good normal check unlike pretty much every other rock type in the tier.

i think xatu might be worth moving up to s rank since its so centralizing and like mesp it can pretty much run anything reliably and puts a lot of spikestackin teams in check. dont feel too strongly on it though

a rank - dont feel strongly about anything here that could potentially move up or down aside from chan goin to a+, but i dont really have much to say on it that others havent already mentioned. i think vivi is a really fucking annoying mon to every playstyle since nothing on offense particularly likes switching in on a +1 hurricane, and sub sets wreck a lot of balance teams. stun spore uturn sets are p cool too...but again, priority is on like every other team, and there are decent enough checks.

a- rank - dont have anything to say here, feel like steelix is a little better than people give it credit for though

b+ rank - see above

b rank - clefairy definitely needs to move up to b+. its proven itself as one of the best gluemons in the tier given its role compression and that it switches into 60% of offensive threats and proceeds to cripple something with knock / twave...knock off sucks obviously but fairy typing is stellar defensively anyway.

combusken just sucks. fat waters are everywhere rn and compared to the other fire types its just not strong enough, even if it manages to get a sd boost under its belt. speed pass bannin kinda fucked it over i think

primeape should be b+ as well, while it doesnt have as much to offer compared to yama / gurdurr / chan, cb sets really fucking hurt and u-turn helps it not be as much of a momentum suck as the others in some matchups

b- rank - is there any reason roselia is here? its a decent lanturn switch in but its bulk otherwise is pretty bad, and spikes arent enough to set it apart from vileplume, which is better in pretty much every other aspect

c+ rank - a lot of people sleep on this thing, but altaria is actually really fucking good on stall thanks to being the most viable haze setter user, which is really nice given how threatening sd rott, mush, gurdurr, etc. are to those kind of teams. not being able to defog sucks and it prertty much has to rely on toxic to deal damage, but it adds a lot of utility that a lot of stall teams appreciate i think

c rank - gorebyss i think is worth moving up. it cant set up on normals like the other shell smashers are but it fucks with a lot of mons that barb / carra / oma struggle to deal with

and uhh thats all i have to say lol, not a whole lot yea. arbok not having a rank is surprising though
 
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erisia

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Hi all, we're opening up the final round of discussion before these Viability Rankings are "set in stone". We might update them again once SM NU is established and ORAS NU becomes an other metagame but don't count on it. Here are some suggestions for Pokemon that we'd like to see some discussion on (thanks Bouff); feel free to suggest other changes but remember that you need to provide replays when nominating unranked mons. I haven't seen a convincing argument to rerank Arbok so please post one imo.

Jynx, Archeops, Xatu, Hitmonchan, Steelix, Clefairy, Combusken, Primeape, Poliwrath, Roselia, Altaria, Gorebyss
 

Mac3

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Jynx S -> A+

Haven't been playing NU a lot recently but I can assure you Jynx isn't that good. Stall always uses Bronzong anyway so stall don't have a problem with it. Offense usualy has some mons that are quicker and can revenge kill it and so does balance. Another thing is that Skuntank is rising in popularity so Jynx is getting worse and worse. It is still very powerful if you aren't prepared for it but I believe most teams are prepared for it nowadays. Not a lot of writing but didn't have that much time.
 

yogi

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Jynx S -> A+

Haven't been playing NU a lot recently but I can assure you Jynx isn't that good. Stall always uses Bronzong anyway so stall don't have a problem with it. Offense usualy has some mons that are quicker and can revenge kill it and so does balance. Another thing is that Skuntank is rising in popularity so Jynx is getting worse and worse. It is still very powerful if you aren't prepared for it but I believe most teams are prepared for it nowadays. Not a lot of writing but didn't have that much time.
I disagree a lot with this. Stall is an archetype that's very rarely utilized both in ladder matches and tour matches in comparison with other archetypes. All the S rank 'mons have things that can revenge them, the issue with Jynx is that you often have to revenge it unless you play extremely well (meaning that if you give it a free chance to come in, you're going to have something crippled), as it has almost no counters, bar Bronzor and Metang. In terms of Skunk, Jynx often deals with it unless it's an intact Lum Berry, as it can just out speed and Lovely Kiss. It is by far one of the most threatening 'mons in this meta and I see absolutely nothing that has made it change; Skunk has even shifted to the special Defog set, which is either beaten by Jynx or just gets switched out on. Even if you're prepared for it, it's still an extreme threat throughout the match and has to be taken into consideration at all times.
 

Kiyo

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I'm gonna agree with Jynx dropping, it's too inconsistent and difficult to build with effectively to be an S rank mon.

^those are the only well reasoned thoughts I can come up with at the moment. however I will say some random unthoughtful things. Scarf Jynx is the only good Jynx. It's also the most easy to check in the current metagame as pursuit users have become more common, Liepard and Skuntank are 5th and 6th in usage. SubPlot is too dependent on the opponents team and Sash isn't nearly consistent enough against offense or balance to be effective imo.
 

Rapture

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Not much too add to jynx, it's kinda in a tough spot since the playstyle it does best against isnt that great to begin with and like kiyo said it kinda depends on matchup to be very useful vs balance and offense. mainly wanted to post to say that Xatu is probably deserving of S at this point. its ability to control the hazard game is impeccable and a few hazard setters that do really well versus it like piloswine aren't too common rn. between magic bounce and the ability to reliably check fighters plus function as a late game win con with CM, there's very few times Xatu will be dead weight in a game.

Also Clefairy and Altaria should probably rise, both are kinda underrated and the amount the threats that two are capable of checking is brazy.

OH and archeops is ok where it is. it's no tauros but still something that dumpsters unprepared teams. steelix should stay where it is too, it's ass lol.
 

shiloh

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Tiering Lead
**A+ -> S

i honestly thought it was s already which is why i never mentioned it before, but i really think that rhydon should be s in the final stages of oras. since i got back to playing nu, rhydon is easily one of the most splashable mons in the tier, being able to fit and benefit almost every playstyle. its two main sets play very differently, but together i believe they push rhydon to being s.

the first and more common set being its defensive set is an amazing blanket check to almost every physical attacker in the tier, as well as select special attackers. rhydon compresses so many key roles from nu balance in one slot being a normal check, rocker, as well as a sturdy physical wall to tank hits from things like garb & scyther which are traditionally huge threats to balance. also over the past few months its gained quite a bit of viability with the drop in usage / viability of lix which directly competes for a team slot over this, and showing that rhydon is the better fit for a majority of teams in todays metagame. also the fact its able to beat the most common hazard counterplay in the form of xatu gives it a big boon over other rockers in the tier. even with minimum investment in attack, rhydon is still very hard to switch into as its dual stabs pressure a large majority of the tier, with even bulky switch ins like plume & gastro taking 30-40 which forces them to recover as rhydon switches to a team mate that appreciates the free turn.

double dance rhydon is one of the best & most threatening set up sweepers in the tier atm, and it just adds on rising rhydons viability. atm the most common balance teams lack checks to this as well. things like vileplume which are being used in lieu of ground resists on teams like teddeh's rmt are actually ohkod after rocks & spikes if rhydon sets up a swords dance on the switch. its also really nice for offensive teams that would love to have a normal check that keeps up offensive pressure, as even without defensive evs rhydon can work as a switch into kanga & tauros fairly well, as well as things like scyther & swellow.

overall i do think rhydon should end this generation in s, as its combination of splashability and viability of both of its sets really do put it at the top of the list in terms of oras mons.

**C -> C+

ive been using this quite a bit recently and its just a neat anti-meta mon atm that i think could see a rise. the set ive been using is ice beam / tbolt / focus blast / tect and its been working wonders as a blanket special check & offensive tank. offensive ices have always been scary in nu, but lots of things hold them down. mainly rock weakness & speed in terms of aboma / auro which are the ices that i think compare to regice the most. while regice has both those qualities, it has amazing bulk and really nice coverage for steels in focus blast. while it does lack reliable recovery, i found protect is actually really useful & effective at getting regice healthy. its also really useful for scouting choice sets like rotom & mesprit giving it the ability to give free turns to team mates which is invaluable.

its also an amazing check to most special attackers, as its 200base spdef allows it to check psychic types like specs mesprit even with all the coverage they usually run. unlike other psychic resists like skuntank, specs mesprit cant 2hko regice with any of its coverage or with psychic (unless it runs psyshock). its a great mon to try out, and here is the team i used vs soulgazer if you wanna test it out yourself and see how good it can be on the right team.
 

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