Resource ORAS OU Sets Viability Rankings V4 (See Post #229: Page 10)

[Barge]

some thinks about two pokes

Mega Latias Utility -> Rename? B -> B+ (& above CM)
I agree with it, simply because Mega Latias fills better that role.
With such an enormous bulk and a great typing, is able to check multiple threats, such as Mega Charizard Y, Keldeo, Mega Lopunny, Thundurus, Mega Manectric.
BoltBeam coverage means the ability to heavily damage the aforementioned threats and twave is just the best move on the metagame.
Lastly, the cm role is already taken by Clefable, (Mega)Slowbro, even Reuniclus has a niche, but i think that mega Latias is not worthy.


Hoopa-Unbound Assault Vest: A- -> ???
Just two or three things to say here:
-Lacks the Life Orb damage output losing matchup against balanced Builds
-Lacks the Choice Scarf speed boost, losing matchup against offense
-No resistances
-No ability to check specific threats (Mega alakazam lacking signal beam is already well checked by its already sky-high special defense)

Completely pointless, should drop

 

[SketchUp]

CM > Defensive
I was about to nominate this myself when I saw this was on the slate so I'll share my thoughts on this one. The thing I always liked about Defensive (Thunder Wave mainly) is the fact that it is able to directly put a stop to setup sweepers such as Mega Charizard-X and SD Kabutops without the need to set up a Calm Mind in order to do enough damage to break through them. Charizard-X obviously is the best example of this because while Thunder Wave won't actually beat Charizard-X 1v1 without two full paralysis in a row, it will stop a big part of its effectiveness for the rest of the match. Calm Mind sets need to get a CM off first to 2HKO Charizard-X, but are in risk of getting 2hko'd themselves before they even become threatening to Charizard-X. This has always been the main draw to TWave Slowbro for me, outside of the fact that you can Thunder Wave switchins like Serperior, Mega Venusaur, Hoopa-Unbound and Latios. Some importants things are that (1.) The increase of (or already high) usage of pokemon such as Tangrowth, Gastrodon and Mega Sableye, combined with the decrease in usage of Charizard-X, hurt the overall effectiveness of Thunder Wave, while (2.) at the same time you can still click Scald and weaken aforementioned checks to the standard defensive set. On the other hand, the Calm Mind set can actually take advantage of pokemon such as Tangrowth, Latios and Clefable. Tangrowth fails to break a +1 Slowbro even if it runs Leaf Storm over Giga Drain, Latios loses if it lacks CM and even though Clefable can beat Slowbro through paralysis hax or CM Thunderbolt (which is a great set at the moment), it still has the odds against it because of Psyshock. Those are just 3 examples of common pokemon where the effectiveness of Calm Mind is a lot bigger than the Defensive set.

Physically Defensive C -> C+
Talking about Tangrowth, I think the Physical Defensive sets doesn't deserve to be placed so low compared to the AV set. A ground resistance as opposed to a ground neutrality (referring to Amoonguss and Mega Venusaur) is really important when functioning as a check to pokemon like SD Lando-T and Excadrill. A higher defensive stat is another important thing above Amoonguss because it gives you a much better check to Mega Lopunny and Terrakion, even though you lack the fighting resistance. Also there are other nice things Tangrowth has like Leech Seed, Sleep Powder, Knock Off and Earthquake, but the ground resistance alone is for me reason enough to put it at C+, as it definitely deserves a slot above Amoonguss in some teams. Example of PDef Tangrowth here. As you can see it is (unlike Amoonguss) not setup fodder for Gliscor because Giga Drain does pretty much to a Roosting Gliscor (whereas Amoonguss fails to do 2HKO) It's not the best replay of PDef Tangrowth but it at least shows the viability of other items than AV (Rocky Helmet to weaken Ferrothorn) and its huge bulk (TTar's Pursuit only doing 12% shows that Stone Edge does a max of only 30%)

Choice Band > Expert Belt
I've never been a huge fan of Expert Belt Victini but I could see te reasonings behind it with the high usage of Garchomp in the last few months. Now that Landorus-T became more common than Garchomp, I think Choice Band should move back to above Expert Belt (I've always thought they were on the same level in the Tankchomp-spam metagame) Add the fact that Expert Belt Victini lacks the power in some situations to revengekill pokemon such as Kyurem-B (bar Max SpA Focus Blast with rocks up), Clefable and Mega Sableye, it is kinda hard to see why Expert Belt is deemed more viable than Choice Band in the current metagame.

 

[bludz]

Updated with new VR updates.

Additional updates:

Torn-T's Life Orb set was placed above AV, but AV remains S rank for the moment.

Mega Latias' Utility set is ranked above Calm Mind, but both share the same rank.

Defensive Suicune was removed. Not sure what that was either. Moving on..

Defensive Tangrowth bumped up to B-, honestly fucking annoying. Can revisit if this is too high but since the mon itself is B+ figured this isn't too crazy

Added a Coil set for Zygarde in C, since its sort of a thing.

Gonna try to work with the guys to have some more concrete updates on stuff like Calm Mind Slowbro etc

 

[Karxrida]

Defensive Suicune was removed. Not sure what that was either. Moving on..

Defensive Suicune is probably supposed to be CM Roar, which plays a bit differently than CroCune due to lacking Sleep Talk. Not sure if it should be ranked or where to rank it, honestly.

 

[MANNAT]

Defensive Suicune is probably supposed to be CM Roar, which plays a bit differently than CroCune due to lacking Sleep Talk. Not sure if it should be ranked or where to rank it, honestly.

I thought that cm rest roarcune was better than cm restalk? A lot of people talked about how it prevented cune from being as much setup fodder as it was and stuff like that.

 

[bludz]

Found the original post on "Defensive Suicune" made by AM.

Suicune: You should probably start considering adding "Defensive" to consolidate sets I've been using like Scald, Roar, Rest, Sleep Talk. I could provide replays if necessary of different stuff I've used on Suicune with success if you guys need to gauge an idea. Most of you who have played me I think can confirm.

Calm Mind consolidates CM + Roar sets.

 

[AM]

Yeah cm sets are superior now. Was better when fat balances were roaming around. Agreeing with bludz.

 

[Vxy]

Can we drop defensive Starmie? I don't mean B+, I mean like B, maybe even B- . It's so bad becuase it threatens like...4 Pokemon in the whole tier? Non-PowerBeam Tran, Hippowdon, Keldeo, and I guess Mega Diancie. It's sooooo passive and is set up fodder for a ton of stuff and it fishes for Scald burns to do anything like Alomomola does. It's not even consistent imo, it gets switched in on by half the meta and in turn only forces out the Pokemon mentioned above + maybe a few more that might be scared of a scald burn like Landorus-T or Excadrill or Tyranitar or whatever. It's not that bulky either and whenever I see it, I just think "oh nice, my Lati gets a free Defog," or "Zard X gets to set up" or something along those lines. It's nowhere near the level of the offensive set which is actually threatening to teams with its speed + coverage while defensive sets threaten nothing.

 

[urban]

Can we drop defensive Starmie? I don't mean B+, I mean like B, maybe even B- . It's so bad becuase it threatens like...4 Pokemon in the whole tier? Non-PowerBeam Tran, Hippowdon, Keldeo, and I guess Mega Diancie. It's sooooo passive and is set up fodder for a ton of stuff and it fishes for Scald burns to do anything like Alomomola does. It's not even consistent imo, it gets switched in on by half the meta and in turn only forces out the Pokemon mentioned above + maybe a few more that might be scared of a scald burn like Landorus-T or Excadrill or Tyranitar or whatever. It's not that bulky either and whenever I see it, I just think "oh nice, my Lati gets a free Defog," or "Zard X gets to set up" or something along those lines. It's nowhere near the level of the offensive set which is actually threatening to teams with its speed + coverage while defensive sets threaten nothing.

You're really underselling defensive Starmie here. Yeah, it may be weak and have to fish for Scald burns, but when you look at the other choices for spinners, you aren't really left with that many other options if you want longevity. Therefore, for hazard stacking balance and bulky offense, you are pretty much limited to Starmie as your spinner unless you forgo hazard removal or use something even more inefficient or niche like a defogger or Tentacruel. Also, offensive Starmie comes in once per game, maybe twice if you can play it right, and it oftentimes can't utilize its Analytic boost because it's spinning on the switch anyway. On the other hand, defensive Starmie comes with a quite useful typing and reliable recovery, meaning it can actually switch into threats more than once per game, which in turn gives it way more opportunities to spin. The defensive set also has some freedom in terms of picking a 4th move, with Psyshock/Ice Beam/Reflect Type all being viable options with specific advantages and drawbacks in terms of limiting switch ins and what sets up on it. So yeah, I don't support a drop for defensive Starmie considering how it's just about the only thing that can fill its niche.

 

[Vxy]

You're really underselling defensive Starmie here. Yeah, it may be weak and have to fish for Scald burns, but when you look at the other choices for spinners, you aren't really left with that many other options if you want longevity. Therefore, for hazard stacking balance and bulky offense, you are pretty much limited to Starmie as your spinner unless you forgo hazard removal or use something even more inefficient or niche like a defogger or Tentacruel. Also, offensive Starmie comes in once per game, maybe twice if you can play it right, and it oftentimes can't utilize its Analytic boost because it's spinning on the switch anyway. On the other hand, defensive Starmie comes with a quite useful typing and reliable recovery, meaning it can actually switch into threats more than once per game, which in turn gives it way more opportunities to spin. The defensive set also has some freedom in terms of picking a 4th move, with Psyshock/Ice Beam/Reflect Type all being viable options with specific advantages and drawbacks in terms of limiting switch ins and what sets up on it. So yeah, I don't support a drop for defensive Starmie considering how it's just about the only thing that can fill its niche.

I doubt this niche that defensive Starmie has is enough to keep the set in A-, especially when said set is pretty bad in this metagame. It's definitely not on the same level of effectiveness as the offensive set overall, which is why I think it should drop. It's just so passive, and being passive AND not bulky is not good in this meta when there's so many fast, hard-hitting things around. It also has little freedom in its 4th slot imo, Psyshock is almost mandatory considering Starmie is actually a good check to Keldeo and not having it means you're useless against it. I'd also like to know what other threats defensive Starmie is switching into that allow it to spin besides Keldeo, Heatran, and Hippowdon.

Basically the defensive set is just so underwhelming in this meta because of all these fast things that can destroy it (Weavile, Tornadus-T, ScarfTar, Mega Lopunny) and it's not on the same level of effectiveness as the offensive set so I think it should drop a sub-rank or two. Now that I realized that there isn't much that can take its place, B- seems too low, but B/B+ don't (not to me at least).

 

[yuruuu]

Defensive starmie doesn't actually have to run Psyshock to beat Keldeo, subcm keldeo isn't that common, and defensive mie outlasts keldeo anyway so you always win. It can easily run Tbolt too, which helps with gyarados, but definitely psychic stab is not 100% necessary.

Personally I have been trying thunder wave to stop said set up sweepers from taking too much advantage of starmie with mixed results.

 

[Martin]

It has lots of options for that last slot (Psyshock, T-Wave, I guess Reflect Type (although tbh the latter is pretty crap nowadays) and a handful of other things). The issue is that it is just a bad set in a meta like this due to the fact that it a: is really hard to justify its use over other spinners, offensive Starmie and other waters in general, b: suffers under current meta trends such as the large amount of random darks running around and the omnipresence of sand (and, as such, ScarfTar) and c: is irritatingly reliant on hax to actually get anything worthwhile done due to how stupidly passive it is. In the current meta, I'd rather use LO+3 attacks or LO+Spin+Recover+2 attacks over it due to them being able to achieve something worthwhile on a consistent basis, which defensive can't really achieve anymore. Its time in tne sun is over and I definitely think it should drop.

 

[p2]

a starmie walled by keldeo and gengar is awful. id never run defensive starmie without psyshock or twave. just because a set that it beats is uncommon doesn't mean you should go and increase the risk of losing to it.

anyway, i don't see much wrong with this right now. don't like av raikou being above specs though. av raikou isn't really good anymore and you're better off using cm to check electrics because you're more threatening at +1 and you've got lefties to help handle their moves a little better. really, av raikou is just a relic from xy before greninja got gunk shot and people still use it x_x

can defensive slowking be changed to encompass cm / np sets and be bumped up to b above assault vest? i don't think av slowking is very good anymore and boosting variants are usually scarier because of its offensive presence, np is scary as hell when you're using a fat slow balance team because psyshock rips right through clef and scalds tendency to burn makes ferro a less effective answer than it should be. i suppose they could swap and put av down to b- but its w/e really

also, what about specs hoopa? i know bludz has used it to some success so it's probably deserving of a set too because hoopas insane.

 

[Phantom Me]

I think Excadrill's bulky spinner set should be added.

 

[Eclipse]

I think Excadrill's bulky spinner set should be added.

I'm pretty sure that falls under the Specially Defensive/Assault Vest set which is already in B rank atm.

 

[AM]

I'd put Specs Hoopa as the same viability as the Choice Band.

I think defensive Starmie isn't a fantastic set but it's not outright bad to where I would put it at B+ or whatever it was suggested earlier. It still has the options of running Colbur berry for the likes of Torn-T and can utilize Thunder Wave to nurture that and other switch ins. The Offensive set is good but at times it'll face a fat team and kind of just be walled or eventually trapped by TTar on those type of stalls. People have and do use the defensive set effectively even with a slight loss in viability. It's fine where it's at, like urbandear mentioned.

AV Slowking seems pretty bad now because the CM set with max defense is what keeps it rolling against the likes of non Thunderpunch Medicham, Torn-T, can trade 1v1 vs Clefable slightly better than it's counterpart Slowbro. Guys I've talked to also think the simple defensive set has more merit and I don't remember the last time an effective team was utilizing AV Slowking. It's either super important that it has recovery or if it isn't going that route it should probably be it's OTR set.

CM Slowbro seems fine in the same rank as defensive. They're both effective while serving different functions on teams where one is more of a win con while the other is utility.

I agree with Flegg on AV Raikou.

Manaphys TG sets should switch around. TG / 3 attacks being the top set seems a bit off.

I've been seeing a lot more double dance Lando-T so I think it should be above the Scarf set.

Garchomps two SR sets is really debatable right now. There's been a surge in offensive chomps because the rocker role in the defensive set has lost some viability due to increase in ice coverage on mons while being a bit more exploitable than Lando-T rocker variants. I think offensive chomp variants are better in this metagame.

 

[kanng]

how is regular Slowbro's CM set an A and Mega Slowbro's CM set an A-?

 

[Martin]

how is regular Slowbro's CM set an A and Mega Slowbro's CM set an A-?

Because regular Slowbro's ranking on the main VR thread is A and Mega Slowbro's is in A-.

 

[kanng]

Because regular Slowbro's ranking on the main VR thread is A and Mega Slowbro's is in A-.

But that doesn't make CM Slowbro superior to CM M-Slowbro. I understand why Slowbro is higher ranked, but that particular set is not higher ranked.

 

[Martin]

But that doesn't make CM Slowbro superior to CM M-Slowbro. I understand why Slowbro is higher ranked, but that particular set is not higher ranked.

Its just the way that this thread functions. Slowbro is ranked higher and CM just as good as its highest ranked set (if not better than it, as I think they should be swapped around anyway), so it is going to be ranked in A as opposed to A-. In addition, I think that CM Basebro deserves a higher ranking on one basis: while Megabro is technically a better CMer, this is directly contrasted by the fact that it takes up a mega slot. This means that CM Slowbro is more splashable than CM MegaBro due to facing less competition without really losing much when compared to its mega, and as such it is ranked higher.

I'm trying to justify something which is higher on a technicality here, but honestly this is a case where it mostly just comes down to the fact that Slowbro happens to be ranked higher, and not really too much else. If MegaBro were to rise to A then the sets would be on the same ranking. This isn't some do-all/end-all resource, but rather it is a general overview designed primarily for newer players to see which sets of a specific 'mon are better in relation to others for the same 'mon, so I wouldn't get too worked up over something like this. There are multiple cases of things being ranked higher on technicalities of a 'mon being ranked higher despite the actual set not really being notably better in their roles than things one or two subranks lower or on the same level as stuff in the same subrank (for example, I don't consider Defog Megazor to be on the same level as wallbreaker M-Hera or Curse Gastro, but I do agree that it is an entire rank worse than its SD sets), so it can't be treated in entirely the same way as the regular VR thread despite sharing its format and working somewhat similarly. This is a very subjective resource which can be interpreted differently depending on who is using it, so take what you want to from this post and ignore what you don't want to take from this post.

 

[Cheryl.]

Gonna post on a couple of topics:

Does Tornadus Therian's Assault Vest set deserve S rank? Both of Torn-T's sets are very good I know, but the Life Orb set was the set that brought Torn-T up to S, and while AV has more defensive utility, LO has more power and is able to run moves like Taunt to stallbreak and can cause more damage to a team usually with it's power. Overall both of Torn-T's sets are very good, but I'm not sure if Assault Vest deserves S rank.

Slowking's defensive set should definitely rise to B over the Assault Vest set. Being able to run recovery and utility moves like Thunder Wave is really important for Slowking imo, as it helps Slowking check the things it checks a little better than the AV set imo, and it can also be a nice win condition with Calm Mind or Nasty Plot. Also, when was the last time you've seen a legit team with AV Slowking? I think that can answer the question here.

Yeah, I agree with Offensive Chomp > TankChomp in this meta. TankChomp is still pretty nice to check Talonflame and Bisharp, but being suspectible to Excadrill's Earthquakes is not the best thing in a meta where Sand is so strong, and the increase in Ice coverage on some mons also hurt it.

 

[Martin]

Hope this post is appropriate in this thread, but where would you all rank the Tank-Fable set on Smogon?

Clefable @ Life Orb
Ability: Magic Guard
EVs: 252 HP / 252 SpA / 4 SpD
Modest Nature
- Moonblast
- Fire Blast
- Soft-Boiled
- Focus Blast / Thunderbolt / Ice Beam / Psyshock

In my opinion, it should be B+ Rank. My only real problem with it is even with maximum HP investment, I find that it is still worn down quite easily by even strong neutral attacks (super-effective attacks are almost always 2HKOs). Other than that, I find that it has great coverage and that STAB Moonblast deals significant damage to anything that doesn't resist it. Any other opinions?

It used to be ranked, but got unranked because its really hard to justify using and in general kinda mediocre, just like Lure Mew. Analyses aren't particularly up to date most of the time due to them only really needing revamping when a major meta shift regarding it occurs--hence why its still on there.

 

[Random Passerby]

Actually, what does SpD Heatran even achieve these days? I propose for it to drop to A- or B+
Sure, it walls Latios (no EQ), Zard-Y (you need Stone Edge to beat it because Focus Blast does a lot), Volcarona and Clefable but most Special attackers have a way to easily cheese it.
For example, Torn-T beats it with Hurri + Superpower, Mega Zam trolls it unless it runs Flash Cannon, Mega Gard gets past it with a little prior damage, it can't do anything against Hoopa-U, Water-types laugh at it, Kyu-B laughs at it, Mega Man wears it down with Volt Switch, etc.

 

[bludz]

SpD Tran is interesting because a lot of them run max speed these days for Scizor which make them more of... HP Tran I guess. Regardless it still takes like 0 from Venusaur and other grass types, same with Clefable, Jirachi, and some other mons. It's pretty hilarious when your Heatran goes from 20% HP to like 75% just from repeatedly coming in on attacks that actually do nothing. The actually SpD versions can tank hits from a lot of water types pretty well too, aside from Keldeo most moves are like 3HKOs which means Heatran can easily stay in just to fire off a Toxic and cripple a Slowbro or whatever. I don't really think it's worth dropping at all, it was never meant to really check Mega Zam or Gardevoir unless it's at full, but it totally blocks a ton of other stuff and is a better answer to non-SubSeed Serp as well.

On a similar note kinda wanna put Bulky Scizor > Offensive again just because people are realizing that offensive is a threat and are adapting like in the above scenario, where bulky still outlasts a lot of its checks.

BTW this will be updated soon

 

[Shuple]

I‘d say HP Tran or HP something whatever does exist,in a pretty wide range,such as Gliscor and Rotom-W who run max Speed/a huge amount of Speed and put its rest EVs into HP and a bit of Def./SpDef.

This EV spread may focus on the Pokemon's utility,such as Will-o-Wisp Rotom-W,Baton Pass Celebi,Rapid Spin Starmie,and many stallbreakers such as Heatran,Gengar and Gliscor.