Gen 6 ORAS OU Sets Viability Rankings V5

ORAS OU Sets Viability Ranking Thread V5


Approved by bludz
Stolen from bludz who stole it from me who stole it from Recreant who stole it from Valmanway.
Thanks to Sobi for the new banner!

The goal of this thread is to individually rank the viable sets of each Pokemon that has a niche in the ORAS OU environment as a community. We will try to rank every viable set, so if you think a specific set should be added, please say so. Of course, you are also welcome to comment on the rankings of the individual sets that are already posted in the thread. Please discuss things freely!

Current VR Sets Council:

bludz, urban, Mur, NotFalse
and AM is our not-so-secret buddy

Before you post keep in mind these few rules:

1. Only Pokemon that are ranked on the current viability ranking thread will be ranked here. This is not the place for new nominations; however, all Pokemon in the main thread will be ranked here, no matter how small their niche.

2. A Pokemon's sets cannot be ranked higher than the Pokemon is on the main viability thread - i.e. Choice Band Azumarill cannot be S rank here because Azu is only A rank there.

3. Post intelligently and try to provide justification for any nominations you make. One liners will be ignored.

All right, I think that about covers it. Feel free to PM me any questions or concerns and happy posting!

ORAS OU Sets Viability Rankings


S Rank:
S Rank
Clefable

Magic Guard + Calm Mind: S
Support: S
Unaware Cleric: A
Life Orb Offensive: A-

A Rank:

A+ Rank
Diancie (Mega)

Protect: A+
Rock Polish: A-

Heatran

Utility: A+
Offensive: A
Choice Scarf: B+

Keldeo

Choice Specs: A+
Choice Scarf: A
Calm Mind: A
RestTalk: A

Landorus-T

Defensive Stealth Rock: A+
Offensive Stealth Rock: A
Choice Scarf: A
Double Dance: A

Latios

Special Wallbreaker: A+
Calm Mind: A
Choice Scarf: B+

Rotom-W

Pivot: A+

Scizor (Mega)

Bulky Swords Dance: A+
Offensive Swords Dance: A+
Pursuit: A
Defog: B+

Tornadus-T

Life Orb A+
Assault Vest A

Tyranitar

Choice Scarf: A+
Choice Band: A+
Support: A-

A Rank
Azumarill

Choice Band: A
Belly Drum: A
Assault Vest: A-

Charizard (Mega-X)

Dragon Dance: A
Bulky Will-O-Wisp: A-

Excadrill

Sand Rush Sweeper: A
Choice Scarf: B+
Bulky Moldbreaker: B-

Ferrothorn

Utility: A

Garchomp

Offensive: A
Tank: A
Choice Scarf: B+
Sub SD: B


Lopunny (Mega)

Physical Sweeper: A

Manaphy

Tail Glow + 3 Attacks: A
Tail Glow + Rain Dance: A
Calm Mind: B

Medicham (Mega)

Wallbreaker: A

Sableye (Mega)

Utility: A
Calm Mind: A-

Slowbro

Calm Mind: A
Defensive: A

Talonflame

Offensive Swords Dance: A
Specially Defensive: A-

Thundurus

Mixed Attacker: A
Prankster Utility: A
Nasty Plot: A-


Volcanion

Special Wallbreaker: A

Weavile

Physical Sweeper: A

A- Rank
Alakazam (Mega)

Special Attacker: A-

Bisharp

Swords Dance: A-
Pursuit: B+

Charizard (Mega-Y)

Special Wallbreaker: A-

Gardevoir (Mega)

Special Wallbreaker: A-

Gliscor

Stallbreaker: A-
Defensive Utility: B+
SubToxic: B-


Heracross (Mega)

Physical Wallbreaker: A-

Jirachi

Choice Scarf: A-
Specially Defensive: A-
SubToxic: B

Latias (Mega)

Speedy Tank: A-

Metagross (Mega)

All Out Attacker: A-
Rock Polish: B

Pinsir (Mega)

Physical Sweeper: A-

Serperior

Substitute: A-
Special Sweeper: A-

Skarmory

Specially Defensive: A-
Physically Defensive: A-


Starmie

Offensive Spinner: A-
Defensive Spinner: B+

Terrakion

Choice Band: A-
Choice Scarf: B+
Swords Dance: B


B Rank:
B+ Rank
Amoonguss

Pivot: B+

Chansey

Blob: B+

Gengar

Special Wallbreaker: B+
Hex: B-


Gyarados (Mega)

Dragon Dance: B+


Hippowdon

Mixed Wall: B+


Kyurem-B

Life Orb Mixed Attacker: B+
Choice Band: B+
Choice Scarf: B

Latias

Offensive Utility: B+

Magnezone

Choice Scarf: B+
Choice Specs: B
Utility Trapper: B-

Manectric (Mega)

Offensive Pivot: B+

Mew

Stallbreaker: B+
Utility: B

Nidoking

Special Wallbreaker: B+


Slowbro (Mega)

Calm Mind: B+


Suicune

Calm Mind: B+

Tangrowth

Physically Defensive: B+
Assault Vest: B

Venusaur (Mega)

Defensive: B+
Offensive: B+


B Rank
Aerodactyl (Mega)

Revenge Killer: B

Alakazam

Life Orb: B
Focus Sash: C+

Altaria (Mega)

Offensive Dragon Dance: B
Defensive Dragon Dance: B
Bulky Support/Tank: B-


Breloom

Life Orb: B
Focus Sash: B-
Poison Heal: C+

Dragonite

Dragon Dance: B
Choice Band: B-

Gastrodon

Curse: B
Defensive: C+

Gyarados

Dragon Dance: B


Kingdra

Choice Specs: B
Life Orb: B-

Klefki

Utility: B

Politoed

Bulky Rain Support: B

Quagsire

Unaware Wall: B


Reuniclus

Calm Mind: B

Slowking

Calm Mind: B
Defensive: B-

Togekiss

Stallbreaker: B
Defensive: C+

Volcarona

Offensive Quiver Dance: B
Bulky Quiver Dance: C

B- Rank
Alomomola

Fat Fish: B-

Celebi

Baton Pass: B-
Support: B-

Crawdaunt

Physical Wallbreaker: B-

Diggersby

Physical Wallbreaker: B-


Hydreigon

Life Orb: B-
Choice Scarf: C-

Kabutops

Rain Sweeper: B-

Mamoswine

Physical Wallbreaker: B-


Metagross

Assault Vest: B-

Raikou

Choice Specs: B-
Calm Mind: B-


Scizor

Swords Dance: B-
Choice Band: B-
Defog: C

Swampert (Mega)

Rain Sweeper: B-


C+ Rank
Dragalge

Offensive: C+
Specially Defensive: C

Empoleon

Utility: C+

Gallade (Mega)

Swords Dance: C+

Garchomp (Mega)

Swords Dance: C+
Mixed Attacker: C


Infernape

Defensive: C+
Offensive: C+

Lucario

Swords Dance: C+

Mandibuzz

Utility: C+


Omastar

Rain Sweeper: C+

Sceptile (Mega)

Cleaner: C+

Scolipede

Baton Pass: C+
Offensive Cleaner: C+
Hazard Setter: C

Sharpedo (Mega)

Cleaner: C+


Thundurus-T

Agility (includes Double Dance): C+
Nasty Plot: C
Choice Scarf: C-

Victini

Choice Specs: C+
Expert Belt: C+
Choice Band: C+

Zapdos

Defog: C+

Zygarde

Dragon Dance: C+
SubCoil: C

C Rank
Azelf

Suicide Lead: C

Entei

Choice Band: C

Feraligatr

Dragon Dance: C

Hawlucha

Sub SD: C


Jellicent

Defensive: C

Pidgeot (Mega)

Special Wallbreaker: C
Stallbreaker: C

Seismitoad

Defensive Utility: C

Tentacruel

Rapid Spin/Utility: C

Toxicroak

Swords Dance: C

Tyranitar (Mega)

Dragon Dance: C

C- Rank
Aggron (Mega)

Tank: C-

Beedrill (Mega)

Revenge Killer: C-

Blastoise (Mega)

Rapid Spin: C-

Chesnaught

Defensive: C-
Belly Drum: D

Cobalion

Bulky Pivot: C-

Cofagrigus

Defensive: C-
Trick Room: C-

Conkeldurr

Assault Vest: C-
Life Orb: C-

Dugtrio

Trapper: C-


Goodra

Special Wallbreaker: C-
Assault Vest: D

Hoopa

Choice Specs: C-

Kyurem

Choice Specs: C-
SubRoost: D


Magneton

Choice Scarf: C-

Rotom-H

Defensive: C-

Staraptor

Wallbreaker: C-

Ampharos (Mega)

Defensive: D
Offensive: D

Blissey

Blob: D

Bronzong

Utility: D

Cloyster

Shell Smash: D

Cresselia

Defensive: D
Trick Room: D


Houndoom (Mega)

Nasty Plot: D

Porygon2

Mixed Wall: D

Rhyperior

Choice Band: D
Defensive: D

Sylveon

Choice Specs: D

Roserade

Utility: D

Sableye

Utility: D

Shedinja

Can't Touch This: D

Tyrantrum

Dragon Dance: D
Choice Band: D
Choice Scarf: D

Whimsicott

Utility: D

 
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All right. Apologies for it taking so long to get this thread up, but Smogon gave me an error message every time I tried to post before this afternoon. Anyway, I want to thanks bludz for taking this thread over from me in the first place and for all the work he has put into the thread since then. I'm excited to be back running this thread now that bludz has ascended to forum leader.

Before he turned the thread over to me, bludz made an enormous update to these rankings to go along with the main VR thread update, so I'm not going to change any of the work he did just yet. Instead, I'm going to bring up my thoughts on some changes or rankings that I may not agree with in order to generate discussion. I'll edit these topics into this post later as well as the OP.

Finally, our council is running a bit low on users right now, so if you would like to be a part of it, please send me a VM expressing your interest. Happy posting! n_n

EDIT:

Discussion Topics!

So our first topic of discussion will be Choice Scarfers in A ranks. Here is how the Scarf sets of all A rank Pokemon look currently:
  • A rank: Keldeo, Landorus-T, Tyranitar
  • A- rank: Latios, Garchomp, Heatran, Jirachi
  • B+ rank: Excadrill
I think we can all agree that the A rank looks about right in this metagame. Those three are the most common scarfers and are pretty undeniably the best. A- rank starts to look a little fuzzy to me. Jirachi's best set is the Scarf set, and that set is the main reason it currently holds its A- rank in the VR thread. Latios, Garchomp, and Heatran are all ranked higher for other sets, but I don't think it would be accurate to say their Scarf sets are on the level of Scarf Rachi even though their higher overall rank might suggest so. I think this problem exists with some other "families" of sets if you directly compare similar sets between Pokemon. Going forward, I will be looking at some of these cases with the ranking team to try to get a more accurate picture of some rankings. Anyway, Pokemon philosophy lesson aside, I think Scarf Latios, Scarf Garchomp, and Scarf Heatran are all due for a drop to B+. The speed tiers of Latios and Garchomp aren't quite as important as they once were with CharX running through the tier, and I've never been a fan of Scarfers like Tran that can't outspeed the entire unboosted meta (outside of Tar). On the other hand (and I know this will make AM cringe), I would like to see Scarf Excadrill in A-. Moldbreaker EQ is actually a really powerful tool with numerous teams relying on Levitate users like Rotom or the Latis as their ground resist.

Our second topic is Offensive Sets of Pixie Legendaries. This isn't about individual ranks so much as I'm starting to question the effectiveness of certain sets, and in turn, I question whether they should even be included here. The sets I have in mind in particular are: Expert Belt Jirachi (B), Lure Mew (B-), and Offensive Celebi (C+). I haven't used or seen these used much recently, so I'd appreciate hearing some other people's thoughts.

All right, the final few things I have don't really fall into one category, so we will just call this Random Shit.
  • Gliscor's top two sets should be combined because both SD and Taunt sets are essentially Stallbreakers with the choice between SD and Taunt really just boiling down to playstyle and personal preference.
  • Serperior's SubSeed set should be renamed Substitute to encompass Sub Glare variants as well.
  • Thundy's mixed set should be the top ranked set because it is by far the best at bypassing Thundy's checks. It can even run Twave if Spower/Knock isn't necessary. Also, missing Focus Blast sucks, and NP Thundy doesn't really generate that many set up opportunities anymore.
  • Raikou's Specs set should be the top set because CM tries to set up when it really doesn't have the time or longevity to do so considering it's liable to catch a burn from a stray Scald at some point. Specs has immediate power (enough to 2HKO Hippowdon with HP Ice) and good enough bulk to check other electrics pretty well without Lefties.
  • Lastly, HexGar should probably get a drop because you almost always have to forgo coverage in order to fit everything needed on HexGar, usually Wisp + Sub or Pain Split. Its way more threatening when its running LO + Ghost/Fighting/Poison coverage. Plus Weavile and Tyranitar are fucking everywhere, so HexGar has to play extremely carefully to be effective.
 
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Hi everyone,

I personally nominate M-Pidgeot's stallbreaket set to B-. I agree the roost+3 attacks set is hugely outclassed by Tornadus-T and thus deserves to remain in C However, with stall being as powerful as it is in the current meta (partially due to Hoopa's ban), as evident by the recent tier shifts bringinf stall staples such as Quagsire and Amoonguss moving into OU by usage, Pidgeot's stallbreaking deserves to rise.

It's ability to beat most stall teams lacking Weavile due to an ability to avoid status, heal reliably, and boost its damage output. In fact, I'd be hard pressed to beat a M-Pidgeot 1v1 on stall if all my phazers were weakened. Thus, I nominate Pidgeot's stall breaking set to B-.

Thanks for reading.
 
Hi everyone,

I personally nominate M-Pidgeot's stallbreaket set to B-. I agree the roost+3 attacks set is hugely outclassed by Tornadus-T and thus deserves to remain in C However, with stall being as powerful as it is in the current meta (partially due to Hoopa's ban), as evident by the recent tier shifts bringinf stall staples such as Quagsire and Amoonguss moving into OU by usage, Pidgeot's stallbreaking deserves to rise.

It's ability to beat most stall teams lacking Weavile due to an ability to avoid status, heal reliably, and boost its damage output. In fact, I'd be hard pressed to beat a M-Pidgeot 1v1 on stall if all my phazers were weakened. Thus, I nominate Pidgeot's stall breaking set to B-.

Thanks for reading.
sets cant be higher than the actual mon. Now i have two sentences get played bludz.
 

Gary

Can be abrasive at times (no joke)
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Choice Scarf Magnezone is practically non existent these days lol, it's pretty garbage. Zone needs that extra power otherwise it doesn't hit that hard at all nor does it outspeed that much either because of its garbage Speed tier. Zone is only B+ because of its Specs set, Scarf is easily B or B-, Specs is a huge bitch to switch into as it 2HKOes lots on the switch and Volt is doing a ton to practically anything that doesn't resist it.
 
I have a couple thoughts on the offensive pixies subject. First off, I'll start by completely dismissing offensive Celebi. I think it's a terrible set that has to choose between recovery and coverage (assuming NP or SD as one moveslot) without even really having the payoff of luring enough metagame threats to warrant a decent ranking. That's not to say it's completely unusable or there isn't some rare team that it fits on, but yeah, moving on.

I would like to defend lure sets for both Mew and Jirachi. Starting with Jirachi; just by nature of its very good typing, even when using sets that don't have obvious ubiquitous utility such as scarf/spdef, Jirachi is likely to be helpful to any team in any game with checking opposing threats at the very least. And given how common these, well, common sets are, it is relatively easy to manipulate your opponent into reacting in a predictable way and capitalizing with your lure. Jirachi also can run utility moves such as Stealth Rock or Healing Wish on lure sets, again making it at the very least not dead weight in games vs teams where your lure isn't likely to be as effective.

On to Mew; to state the blatantly obvious, Mew can run literally anything, which I think warrants at least having a Lure/Offensive set ranked. Mew has the coverage to lure such a wide variety of Pokemon, using both physical and special moves. It can boost with both SD and NP without losing much at all in terms of coverage, usually able to hit most of the meta at least neutrally with only 3 moves while still luring usual counters to the standard sets. Just like Jirachi, Mew can run any number of utility moves as well on a lure set, potentially enhancing its usefulness to certain teams.

In the end, I understand that they both lack the raw power to break though things as easily as a lot of offensive mons/wallbreakers (neither of them are gonna have any mind blowing calcs to show off), and I would be able to get behind maybe dropping each set a partial letter grade or something. But I still think they are useful tools to keep in mind when teambuilding and can be effective enough to keep them ranked as sets.
 

Martin

gamer boy
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I think that as far as offensive Celebi is concerned Choice Scarf is definitely worth listing because it acts as a sort of role compression between fast HW a-la ScarfRachi, fast Grass-type a-la Serperior or MScept and a Keldeo switch-in--all of which set it apart sufficiently from its competition to warrent ranking and is probably the best variant of offensive Celebi available at this time. That said I'm not sold on completely writing off other offensive variants (i.e. NP) having faced them quite a few times because they are able to function reasonably well due to the good bulk and reliable recovery+easy healing from boosted Giga Drain allowing it to set up multiple Nasty Plots somewhat consistently when compared to other NP users such as Thundy while its typing means that it fits onto different teams to Togekiss. However it should definitely be lower than its other sets, and I'm not 100% on whether they are worth ranking (just sceptical about dismissal). IMO Celebi should be Baton Pass (B-)>Support (B-)>Choice Scarf (C+)>Offensive (C/C-/Unranked).

Lure Mew is pretty garbage in all honesty; the only sets I'd consider using on it would be utility and stallbreaker. The thing about offensive Mew is that it is good in theory and then just a kinda mediocre lure in practice on the basis that its answers typically consist of Dark-types, special wallbreakers and... uh, what else comes in on this thing again? This is the issue, and the moment that you see it fire off an attack you know that it is a lure set and play drastically differently to how you'd play around its standard variants. At that moment, unless the set that's being used is carrying a really crappy combination of attacks, you know pretty much what moveset its got. It also faces pretty heavy competition from the other 100/100/100/100/100/100 legends (who have either better typing (Jirachi, Celebi, Manaphy), a secondary STAB to make them that little bit harder to take advantage of (Celebi, Jirachi) or a better ability (literally all of them) while also having incredible movepools), which is where it is just hard to justify a lot of the time. Probably drop it but maybe don't unrank it idk really.

Finally I agree with the proposal regarding Thundurus. I've used that set a lot recently and it is just more consistent in general, and the increased versatility+capacity to actually take advantage of one of its abilities when compared to NP (unless you're edgy like me and run NP+T-wave heat) is just so desirable in a bulky offensive meta like the current one and is just generally preferable to the power of a set that can't really set up on much anymore, and the utility that it has with Defiant makes it a tiny bit more splashable onto teams which utilise hazards due to its ability to net a free boost to its coverage. Also the added reliability of Superpower is just really nice.
 

bludz

a waffle is like a pancake with a syrup trap
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Choice Scarf Magnezone is practically non existent these days lol, it's pretty garbage. Zone needs that extra power otherwise it doesn't hit that hard at all nor does it outspeed that much either because of its garbage Speed tier. Zone is only B+ because of its Specs set, Scarf is easily B or B-, Specs is a huge bitch to switch into as it 2HKOes lots on the switch and Volt is doing a ton to practically anything that doesn't resist it.
I disagree with this.

I think Specs is a cooler set for its wallbreaking capabilities but it offers much less to a team in terms of what it checks. Scarf does outspeed Keldeo, Mega Gardevoir, Thundurus, and a variety of stuff sitting below the 115 speed tier, many of which it soft or hard checks. The other thing (and this is a big one) - I know that the metagame has shifted back to bulky Mega Scizor as the go-to Scizor set, but Specs zone is outsped by offensive Mega Scizor. This is a pretty big deal when its one of the main things Magnezone is supposed to remove, and not a whole lot of damage is needed for Superpower to OHKO.

It really depends on your team I think, but I feel like you're downplaying the utility Scarf has against offensive teams. If a team isn't bulky it can still have issues switching into Zone. Of course if you need a more dedicated breaker then Specs is gonna be stronger, but I wouldn't say it's the "better" set outright because it can be more deadweight against offense a lot of the time due to its speed tier
 
I've never been to fond of Choice Scarf Latios, Garchomp, and Heatran as I find the former two rarely ever needs to run Choice Scarf apart from weird builds that desperately need the speed factors. Most of the time Latios and Garchomp would rather be doing other roles rather than being limited to a Scarf, so B+ is fine for them. Scarf Heatran isn't all that bad imo, but compared to the other sets it isn't on the same level of effectiveness which makes it fitting for B+

Expert Belt Jirachi is fine in B imo, it's usually consistent on most teams and support the focal point of said team, which should be the only way you end up using it, very well. Lure Mew is dong, you can't even consistently lure what you want it to lure as as soon as you reveal Ice Beam, FBlast, EP, etc. they'll know that you're a Lure set and that defeats the entire purpose. Not to mention that a lot of what it lures (Lando-T, Ferro, MSciz) don't appreciate the standard Stallbreaker set at all due to Will-O-Wisp and Taunt, so what are you supposed to be luring?? Offensive Celebi is fit for a drop since it only puts in consistent work on very specific matchups. You're really better off running the standard defensive set with Nasty Plot and 2 Moves if you want to use it so badly. Choice Scarf is cool and actually effective so it could deserve a rank.

Mixed Thundurus is really potent right now and just dismantles a lot of certain parts of a staggering amount of teams itself. Gliscor's set should definitely be merged since they don't really deviate from each other. Serperior's SubSeed should be Substitute, as like you said it should encompass all options available with that set. I was never too fond of HexGar since it drastically reduces it's effectiveness against way too many teams and a drop would be fitting.
 

p2

BORN 2 SHIT
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scarf celebi is actually effective lol ive been saying this for ages

anyway, subsd garchomp needs to be moved up a lot, it's definitely not a b rank set when its so underprepared for an such a scary sweeper for when it does work, which is a lot of the time. it's definitely on the level of a- at the very least because it takes advantage of common mons really easily (ignores intimidate from lando, free sub on tran, baits for misses from rotom, can also be put into an amazing situation v diancie t1 etc)

mega latias should also have a cm set, same rank as the standard set, sets up easily against a lot of stuff, has a lot of options to make setting up easier or allows it to remove dark types more easily.

scarf latios is decent, but it does seem a bit off being in a-, it's not that great anymore and the main selling point of the set (good zard x revenge killer) isn't as relevant.

i also feel mega diancie should be split into specially biased attacker and physically biased, probably put the former in a+ and put the latter in a because although they're both solid, phys seems to lack the consistency of special but luring venu/amoong/chansey/slowking is very nice.
 
Idk for sure if i think this needs to be ranked but i guess its at least worth mentioning. Maybe sap sipper azu set could be D rank? Its very niche yes but it works very well on some teams and its certainly a lot better than a ton of other d ranked sets like subroost kyurem and scarf ttrum lol. I just noticed that set wasnt ranked and i think its at least worth considering for D rank as its not that bad.
 

bludz

a waffle is like a pancake with a syrup trap
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Idk for sure if i think this needs to be ranked but i guess its at least worth mentioning. Maybe sap sipper azu set could be D rank? Its very niche yes but it works very well on some teams and its certainly a lot better than a ton of other d ranked sets like subroost kyurem and scarf ttrum lol. I just noticed that set wasnt ranked and i think its at least worth considering for D rank as its not that bad.
We spoke about this a bit in the last thread but it doesn't really make sense for an A rank mon to have a D rank set listed. That's just too much disparity and basically tells you its not worth ranking
 
Why not differentiate between Physically Defensive and Specially Defensive Zapdos?
Because Zapdos sucks.

Also, just a note that I will be making some of the changes that have been talked about in the thread so far. Big changes are reordering the Scarfers in the A ranks and cleaning up/renaming a few sets. I'll edit this post with a list of changes once I'm done. I will also try to think of some new discussion topics and put those in the OP, but discussion is not limited to those topics alone - you may discuss anything.
 
  • A rank: Landorus-T, Tyranitar
  • A- rank: Keldeo, Jirachi
  • B+ rank: Excadrill, Heatran, Latios, Garchomp
Reasoning: As good as Keldeo is, and as strong as it is, it either misses the power behind specs or the versatility of choosing its moves. This makes it inferior to mons like Lando-T or TTar, who have the added benefit of switching into tons of stuff (esp. Lando-T, but also TTar with Lati@s). They also have a more prevalent niche and/or ability than keld does, such as Lando-T having intimidate and u-turn, and TTar having pursuit. Keld just has the benefit of being fast, but to what end? It doesn't help it outspeed many helpful things, as a lot of the stuff that it outspeeds has a way of dealing with it anyway (AV torn tanks every hit, thundy has twave, lati just shrugs the hits off). The only thing it really helps with is that it lets you be faster than mega diancie.

I took too long explaining that. Long story short, Lando-T and Tyranitar are the premier scarfers in the tier, as they have a significant move/ability that enables them to abuse the scarf effectively. Keldeo only has its speed and power. Therefore it should be in the same rank as Jirachi, which is also significantly better than the B+ mons, as Keldeo hits super hard and has easily spammable moves, and Jirachi has healing wish and serene grace (curse this ability).
 

Eclipse

Like a chimp with a machine gun
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I honestly really like Scarf Drill, as aside from the utility it provides in quick Rapid Spins for your team, it's just a threatening scarfer that can fit well outside of sand builds. It's ability to check Rotom-W with Mold Breaker EQ, threaten teams once their actual ground immunities (see: Flying types) are gone, as well as it's ability to switchin easily against non-Fire/Fighting coverage Clef without having to worry about T-Wave gives it a nice niche over Jirachi, as Rachi does have to worry about T-Wave, so not having to worry about losing your speed due to para's is great for Scarf Drill; the utility it provides is fantastic, I would bump this thing up, but there's an issue I have with that:

I would say that Jirachi is a better scarfer than Keldeo and Excadrill altogether, but due to the "set can't be higher than the mon" rule, it has to stay there, although it would be weird to rank Rachi as a scarfer in the same rank as Keld/Drill. Maybe Keldeo/Drill can go to B+ and Lati/Tran/Chomp can go to B? To be honest, I find it very difficult to justify using either of Lati/Tran/Chomp as scarfers when they really have much better things to be doing than that. Latios really appreciates LO/ability to switch coverage/recovery over more speed which it really doesn't need, Heatran is alright, but the utility you're giving up in its stallbreaker/utility sets is pretty huge, and I really see no reason why you would use Garchomp over Lando other than Dragon STAB which is still not that great of a reason tbh. If I were to fix it up, I would have it look like this:

A Rank: Lando-T, Tyranitar
A- Rank: Jirachi
B+ Rank: Keldeo, Excadrill
B Rank: Latios, Garchomp, Heatran

Although I'm not too sure how the rest of you feel about it, but that's how I would go about it personally.

Edit: Although looking at it, it would be strange to drop Keldeo's set all the way to B+, so maybe put it in A- and keep Exca as the only B+ scarfer?
 
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Imo mega alt's offensive dragon dance set should drop to B. Really the way to go right now is defensive because it can come in multiple times throughout the match and get damage on its checks. The ability to outlive its checks is far more valuble than trying to overpower them. Malt is no longer a mon capable of 6-0ing teams, but it still finds a niche for its defensive properties. Offensive mega alt is just too prepared for to be good right now, with nearly every team packing a fairy resist and mega scizor being so common. This set just isnt effective anymore so i really feel it should drop.
 
To be honest, this is how I think the ranking of the scarfers should go
A: Lando-T, and Tyranitar (T-tar should be A+ IMO but until it rises in the regular VR, A is fine).
A-: Keldeo, and Jiachi
B+: Heatran, Exca, Garchomp, and latios

As for the Pixi lure sets, Jirachi should be B- or unranked if B- is too much of a deviation from its initial rank, offensive celebi should not be ranked IMO, and Mew should stay B- or be unranked. To elaborate on Mew, it has been my understanding that mew's lure set was not fully offensive but rather the defog or stallbreaker set with a specific coverage move (i.e. ice beam for gliscor, dazzling gleam for Mega Sableye, EQ for tran, etc.) to alleviate problems that an opposing mon could cause for a particular team or a momentum move that would allow you to bring in a teammate that could beat these problematic pokemon. With this in mind, I am not sure if the lure sets are that fundamentally different from the standard stallbreaker and defog sets so I think that it only makes sense for it to stay in b- (because of the lure set's potential utility for a team) or to be unranked because the lure set is essentially the same as the other two sets bar one coverage/momentum move and, thus should just be conglomerated into its other two sets.
 
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Okay so updates:
Scarf Latios A- to B+
Scarf Garchomp A- to B+
Scarf Heatran A- to B+
SpDef Talon A to A-
Gliscor Combined Stallbreaker sets
Expert Belt Jirachi B to B-
Serperior Renamed SubSeed set Substitute
Thundurus Made Mixed top set (all sets remain A-)
Hex Gengar B to B-
Specs Kyurem-B Removed (Use regular Kyurem)
Scarf Terrakion B to B+
AV Raikou B- to C+

We would also like to welcome NotFalse to the team! He has a lot of experience in the OU Forums, and I am sure he will be able to contribute a lot to the team and this thread. We could still use another team member or two, so if you are interested, please contact me via PM.

Aight, so I talked to the team to get a few ideas for discussion topics, so here we go. The first topic is Landorus-T's sets as a whole. Looking through them, they feel a bit odd to me. Defensive and Offensive SR both sit in A+, with Scarf and Double Dance in A. I think the Offensive SR set struggles a bit in the current metagame where teams look for SR users with a good amount of longevity, but without full defensive investment, Lando-T just isn't as effective as a rocker and most teams can handle the Offensive SR set just fine with either Rotom-W or a Lando-T of their own. The offensive SR set also faces a lot of competition from Garchomp, who has better speed and coverage, and can even afford to go mixed if it wants. With that in mind, I think we can say that Double Dance is Lando-T's premiere offensive set. This thing is really scary for most teams to face because it generates so many set up opportunities, and once set up, it can just sweep through so many different team archetypes.

The second topic has been brought up and rejected before, but with the new ranking system, it is time to reexamine. The set in particular is AV Tornadus-T. I don't think this one needs much explaining, but LO Torn is much harder to deal with and doesn't actually hit like a wet pillow. Switching into things is nice, but the drop off in power is so significant that AV likely deserves a drop to A.

I want to hear a bit more talk about Offensive Celebi and Mew because I am still kind of lost as to what to do. From reading through posts, the community seems pretty divided, so I think some more discussion is in order. The last topic I will bring up isn't exactly something I see a problem with, but I think we can apply some logic that we did in the case of scarfers to this topic too. That topic is Calm Mind users in the S through B ranks. Again, I don't really have a problem with any of these ranks, but I think it will make a good discussion point. For reference, here is where all the CMers stand at the moment. I have not included sets like Mega Alakazam that only sometimes run CM.

  • S rank: Clefable
  • A+ rank: Latios
  • A rank: Keldeo, Slowbro
  • A- rank: Mega Sableye, Mega Slowbro
  • B+ rank: Suicune
  • B rank: Manaphy, Raikou, Reuniclus, Slowking
 
Landorous-Therian: Its Offensive SR set has a few things over Garchomp, such as U-Turn and Intimidate, so I definitely wouldn't say that Garchomp is that much better as an offensive stealth rocker. The loss of bulk and lower speed is a drag, though, and yeah, stuff like Rotom-W is a pain to deal with, even if you got the based Smack Down (pretty weak, but luring in Rotom and Skarm is always nice). I think the order should be:

Defensive Stealth Rock: A+

Choice Scarf: A
Double Dance: A
Offensive Stealth Rock: A

Defensive is splash-able and great as always, scarf is still a nice pivot and revenge killer, and double dance can allow you to destroy both fat and fast, offensive teams well.

CM Latios : A+ to A
Yeah, its power is huge, being able to smash through stuff like Chansey and MG Clefable easier, but it's not as splashable to the regular set due to the loss of Defog, and to use CM, you have to give up either coverage or reliable recovery, which both suck.

AV Tornadus-Therian: A+ to A
Yeah, AV is nice to check Keldeo and Lat@as, and Regenerator is nice to regain health, but the loss in power is unfortunate, and Life Orb is much more threatening to deal with.
 
TBH, Lando's only A+ set should be its defensive SR set.

When an opposing Torn has AV, I never get too worried because while it has good longevity, it isn't that immediately threatening. LO on the other hand is a nightmare to constantly switch into and it being able to break stall more easily with taunt is a huge boon. Moving AV to A is a no brainer.

CM Latios should be a subrank lower than Special Wallbreaker Latios because losing a moveslot for CM is big. In my experience, Latios is always going to want both STABs, fire coverage, and reliable recovery, and the team that Latios is on wants hazard control. CM is nice to have but since Lati already has 4MSS, CM is not as valuable of a moveslot as the previous ones (most of the times) and thus CM should probably be ranked a subrank lower than its Special Wallbreaker set.

I have no problem with the other CM users' rankings but as I was looking at Keldeo's sets, I said to myself "WTF is rest talk doing in A rank?". I get that the purpose of it is to more reliably check the likes of Bisharp, T-Tar, and Weavile but the purpose of Keldeo is not to be a team's only answer to these threats but instead serve as an offensive check to them. Using RestTalk to counter these mons makes sense on paper but losing out on a setup move/choice item seriously limits Keldeo's effectiveness. This set is very niche and should be ranked somewhere in the B to C range (I'm thinking C+); however, C+ is a big deviation from Keldeo's initial rank of A+ which makes me more inclined to think that it should be removed as a set unless the ranking team approves of it being ranked so low. I know that this set had success in tourney matches but on the ladder, it is suboptimal when compared to Keldeo's other sets and should be ranked accordingly.

Also, a note to the ranking team: Who cares if a high ranked mon has a niche set that would end up in a lower subrank. The fact that a set is ranked at all means that it is viable to some degree (even though it may not be as potent or splashable as a mon's higher ranked sets). I feel as though Azu's sap sipper set should be ranked in D even though it is not as "Good" as CB, BD, or AV. Also, In relation to this post, the ranking of a mon's sets should reflect how each one performs and should not be inflated to be closer to the mon's initial ranking. The purpose of the VR is to inform newer players and to say RestTalk Keld is as good as CM or Choice Scarf is misinforming.
 
Also, a note to the ranking team: Who cares if a high ranked mon has a niche set that would end up in a lower subrank. The fact that a set is ranked at all means that it is viable to some degree (even though it may not be as potent or splashable as a mon's higher ranked sets). I feel as though Azu's sap sipper set should be ranked in D even though it is not as "Good" as CB, BD, or AV. Also, In relation to this post, the ranking of a mon's sets should reflect how each one performs and should not be inflated to be closer to the mon's initial ranking. The purpose of the VR is to inform newer players and to say RestTalk Keld is as good as CM or Choice Scarf is misinforming.
Well, the ranking team cares. Just because a set exists (or has existed at some point) doesn't mean the set should be ranked here, and here's why. First of all, when there is a large disparity in the ranks between something like Sap Sipper Azu and its normal sets, encouraging the use of a vastly inferior set (as Sap Sipper Azu is) is not something the ranking team strives to do. As you said, this is a resource typically for newer users, and including niche sets would really only make this resource more confusing for them because those niche sets lack analyses and/or widespread usage. Second, choosing where to draw the line is incredibly difficult. Yeah, Sap Sipper Azu has seen some usage and is decently well known as a set, but what about bulky Mega Gardevoir or Colbur Latias or other sets of that nature? It's entirely subjective, and trying to include them all would not only be headache for the ranking team but would also just make this thread more confusing and cluttered. For those reasons, the team decided not to include niche sets and I doubt that will change with this iteration of the team.

In regard to RestTalk Keld, it encompasses Mystic Water/Life Orb variants and is actually a fairly effective middle ground between Specs and Calm Mind. Obviously the longevity is the biggest selling point and being able to switch into almost every Dark and Steel type consistently is fucking awesome. That being said, it probably could use a drop to A-/B+, and I will talk to the ranking team about that. Lastly, I just want to say that implying we are misinforming users is pretty ludicrous, especially when you suggest adding Sap Sipper Azu to the rankings. -_-
 
Well, the ranking team cares. Just because a set exists (or has existed at some point) doesn't mean the set should be ranked here, and here's why. First of all, when there is a large disparity in the ranks between something like Sap Sipper Azu and its normal sets, encouraging the use of a vastly inferior set (as Sap Sipper Azu is) is not something the ranking team strives to do. As you said, this is a resource typically for newer users, and including niche sets would really only make this resource more confusing for them because those niche sets lack analyses and/or widespread usage. Second, choosing where to draw the line is incredibly difficult. Yeah, Sap Sipper Azu has seen some usage and is decently well known as a set, but what about bulky Mega Gardevoir or Colbur Latias or other sets of that nature? It's entirely subjective, and trying to include them all would not only be headache for the ranking team but would also just make this thread more confusing and cluttered. For those reasons, the team decided not to include niche sets and I doubt that will change with this iteration of the team.

In regard to RestTalk Keld, it encompasses Mystic Water/Life Orb variants and is actually a fairly effective middle ground between Specs and Calm Mind. Obviously the longevity is the biggest selling point and being able to switch into almost every Dark and Steel type consistently is fucking awesome. That being said, it probably could use a drop to A-/B+, and I will talk to the ranking team about that. Lastly, I just want to say that implying we are misinforming users is pretty ludicrous, especially when you suggest adding Sap Sipper Azu to the rankings. -_-
Ok, thanks for the reply. I understand why the team doesn't want to rank a higher ranked mon with a lower ranked set but I don't agree with the fact that addind Sap Sipper Azu would be "misinforming" to players. Thats not giving them enough credit. If a player sees one set in D for a mon with otherwise all A and A- sets, they will know that that set is inferior to its other, higher ranked, sets but still has a niche allowing it to be ranked in the first place; however, I can resinate with not wanting the thread to get cluttered with random "niche" sets that most players will never consider and will hardly see any usage anyway. Still, the ranking team calls the shots at the end of the day so all my posts are ultimately just suggestions or opinions. I am a relatively new player myself (ORAS was the first meta I played competitively) and have learned a lot about the meta thanks to both the VR and Sets VR threads (which is why I float around these threads and read them significantly more than I post to them).

While I am here typing, can I suggest renaming keldeo's specs set to all-out attacker to encompase LO since that is a viable item that is not only used on the RestTalk set.
 

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While I am here typing, can I suggest renaming keldeo's specs set to all-out attacker to encompase LO since that is a viable item that is not only used on the RestTalk set.
The thing is that LO Keld gets worn down pretty quick, and that means it's an even worse bisharp check than it already is and requires you to run multiple dark checks, which is really annoying. For that reason, restalk is the only real LO set that should be used for the sake of role compression.
 
Kind of agree with acamm about the all out attacker point if that means anything.

Also acamm we used to put more niche sets here but it got out of control, things like 5 sets on infernape and wonky nonsense. Thats mostly the reason why having such huge disparities with sets were taken off.
 

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