Resource ORAS OU Simple Questions, Simple Answers (Read the OP First!)

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Mewtwo and Kyogre are pretty stupid examples.

With Excadrill, if Sand Rush is such an issue, just ban Sand Rush.
And then Sandslash and Stoutland get banned?

See, this is why this doesn't work out. Nothing is wrong with Scolipede, Sharpedo, Sandslash, Stoutland, but we can't ban their only use because of Excadrill and Blaziken, so we ban Excadrill and Blaziken instead. Its much simpler and easier to understand that way.
 
Mewtwo and Kyogre are pretty stupid examples.

With Excadrill, if Sand Rush is such an issue, just ban Sand Rush.
How so? If we unbanned Blaze Blaziken, why don't we unban stuff like Mewtwo, but make it run physical moves only? They are both very complex bans.

Sand Rush is only broken on Excadrill, so we only ban Excadrill.

Ok, how about this.
Where/how can I run some damage calculations that I see people posting all the time?
here
 
It's still incredibly unfair if you like a Pokemon for its stats and movepool, and are forced to not use it just because it has a bad ability that you're not going to use. That's a massive load, and you know it.

And no, banning certain movesets and banning an ability on a Pokemon are not the same thing. At all.
 
It's still incredibly unfair if you like a Pokemon for its stats and movepool, and are forced to not use it just because it has a bad ability that you're not going to use. That's a massive load, and you know it.

And no, banning certain movesets and banning an ability on a Pokemon are not the same thing. At all.
Banning Pokemon+Ability is a very slippery precedent for banning Pokemon+Move or even Pokemon+Level. They are all a ban on a specific combination of two or more factors, which make them quite complicated and there would have to be a LOT of them, as opposed to the much simpler Pokemon/Item/Move ban.

And so what if it's unfair if you can't use Blaze Blaziken in RU? Get over it. Use Entei. Or Medicham. Or Hitmonlee.
 
Thanks. Though where/how can I run speed calcs?
I don't really see an option there.
I apologize for my ignorance on the matter.
Mentally.

Base stat*2+IV+EV/4+5. Natures apply after that calculation. It's not that hard to do. Just don't forget that 5 at the end.
 
All I know is, Blaziken is one of my favorite Pokemon. And it's a monstrous injustice that I can't use it just because an ability exists that I'm not using with it.

There are certain combos that should be banned, and that's not a problem. Swift Swim/Drizzle was one. Many will probably come to pass in the future.

It's not that complex when, listing bans, instead of "Blaziken", you just put "Speed Boost Blaziken". It's only two extra words, and people get it.

And the slippery slope argument never works. Ever.
 
It's still incredibly unfair if you like a Pokemon for its stats and movepool, and are forced to not use it just because it has a bad ability that you're not going to use. That's a massive load, and you know it.

And no, banning certain movesets and banning an ability on a Pokemon are not the same thing. At all.
You're right. Banning an ability on a Pokémon is worse.

Each Pokémon has, at most, three abilities. Some, such as Blaziken, only have two. And others, such as Flygon, only have a single ability. An Ability is one of the core aspects of a Pokémon. Restricting what abilities they can use are far worse than restricting which moves they can use, as it can eliminate part of what defines that Pokémon. If the ability itself is not broken, which Speed Boost is not, there is no reason to ban the Ability. By doing so, you would be making the "incredibly unfair" move of banning Ninjask, despite the fact that Ninjask with Speed Boost is not broken in the slightest.

Speed Boost itself is not broken, so it does not get banned. Speed Boost is also far, far more useful than Blaze (which Blaziken has neither the bulk nor the typing to do well with). Banning an Ability for a particular Pokémon is a silly attempt to keep an overpowered Pokémon in a tier where it does not belong.

Complex bans have been used, but only when there is no better option, as they are a slippery slope, and a poor precedent to set for the metagame. For example, despite the need for banning the Drizzle/Swift Swim combination, doing so has produced hundreds of posts saying "see, complex bans are good! This is exactly what we mean by it being a bad precedent. Complex bans are not a good solution, and I'll outline why in the three basic rules below.

Rule One: Never make a complex ban when a simple one will do. There was no simple ban solution possible for Swift Swim + Drizzle. Banning just Swift Swim would have essentially banned outright a number of Pokémon who had no other viable Ability options, and which were only broken in rain. Banning just Drizzle would have massively unbalanced the weather wars.

Rule Two: Do not make a complex ban unless it affects multiple Pokémon. If there was only one Pokémon that could use Swift Swim + Drizzle or Sand Veil effectively, that one Pokémon would have been banned instead of the combination. Speed Boost itself is not broken. Banning it would ban Ninjask and Scolopede, both of whom use it legitimately. This also helps avoid unnecessary complex bans, and leads into the third rule.

Rule Three: Do not make complex bans to keep a Pokémon OU. If you are banning a Pokémon, it is on the basis of its best ability. Sure, that Pokémon might be useless if it's run with only three moves or controlled by an unskilled player (such as myself). So what? This is a game of mathematics and metagame refinement (especially here at Smogon). Each Pokémon is taken to its pinnacle when determining sets and viability. Otherwise, we have a nasty precedent for things like "Deoxys-A is allowed in OU as long as it only carries two moves". If a Pokémon's best set is overpowered, that Pokémon is overpowered, and banned. We don't cripple it or remove its tools to keep it OU unless the tool itself is broken.

In short, Speed Boost is not broken, it is Speed Boost combined with Blaziken's stats, movepool, typing, etcetera. Banning Speed Boost would cripple otherwise decent Pokémon, and set a bad precedent for keeping Pokémon in OU that should not be there. Plus, all you would get out of it is a Pokémon who, without Speed Boost, is UU or RU at best, as Blaziken is otherwise not that impressive.
Read Rule Three. You don't create a complex ban for the sole purpose of keeping a Pokémon in a particular tier. We don't ban Magic Bounce Espeon to allow it into lower tiers, despite the fact that some people love Espeon and would use it without Magic Bounce (I ran Espeon on every team I've played since it was introduced, long before Magic Bounce). Heck, why don't we ban Drizzle Kyogre? Sure, it's Kyogre's only Ability, but without it, he's a lot more viable for standard play, and since the metagame is based on the simulator, it is within our power to control. We could create a Torrent Kyogre if we wanted. That's good.

Or, hey, why not ban particular Natures? We can unban Modest Blaziken, or Quiet Blaziken. It's not like a Special Attacking Blaziken is broken. So we'll do that.

The point is, once you start jumping through hoops just to keep a Pokémon viable, it never ends. You can make any Pokémon viable if you put enough restrictions up.

All I know is, Blaziken is one of my favorite Pokemon. And it's a monstrous injustice that I can't use it just because an ability exists that I'm not using with it.

There are certain combos that should be banned, and that's not a problem. Swift Swim/Drizzle was one. Many will probably come to pass in the future.

It's not that complex when, listing bans, instead of "Blaziken", you just put "Speed Boost Blaziken". It's only two extra words, and people get it.

And the slippery slope argument never works. Ever.
Except, it does. As I pointed out, the Swift Swim + Drizzle ban has produced hundreds, if not thousands, of post suddenly arguing the benefits of complex bans. That is a perfect example of a bad precedent.

Espeon is my all time favorite Pokémon, and there were some calls to ban it in Gen V when it obtained Magic Bounce. If that had happened, I would play Ubers with Espeon. There is nothing stopping you from playing only Ubers and running Blaziken. There is, in fact, nothing stopping you from playing normally and using Blaziken. Smogon is a competitive community, and Blaziken is uncompetitive. So he is unavailable for competitive play. That is not going to change. This only, however, affects competitive play, and the Smogon community. Feel free to duel your friends, or ask people for matches, and play your own way.
 
Sorry to bother you guys, but I wonder if someone could do Dusclops OU analysis? I use it in almost every team on PS and it works really well stoping some physical monsters (for example Dragonite, Kangaskhan [unless it carries Crunch], Medicham or Lucario cannot touch this thing). I know it may sound like I am too lazy to do something like that on my own, but I simply think that I am not really good at making professional analysis etc. also I am not from England and I still have some drawbacks in grammar and all that language stuff. So, is anyone intrested in doing Dusclops OU analysis please? :)
Greetings.
 
Sorry to bother you guys, but I wonder if someone could do Dusclops OU analysis? I use it in almost every team on PS and it works really well stoping some physical monsters (for example Dragonite, Kangaskhan [unless it carries Crunch], Medicham or Lucario cannot touch this thing). I know it may sound like I am too lazy to do something like that on my own, but I simply think that I am not really good at making professional analysis etc. also I am not from England and I still have some drawbacks in grammar and all that language stuff. So, is anyone intrested in doing Dusclops OU analysis please? :)
Greetings.
The issue with dusclops is it is probably the best wall in the game, but it does nothing besides wall. With no practicality other than to be incredibly bulky, there is little reason to give an analysis on a pokemon so rarely seen in OU. I tried it on a stall team and quickly passed it up for other options because of it's lack of usefulness.
 
Alternatively, you can slide the bar back and forth on the teambuilder until you get the speed you want. :P
Ah, yeah. I forgot about that.
I just have one more question related to calculations in-game.
Are fractions/decimals rounded up or down, or does the standard math "rule" apply - so would, say, 197.5 be rounded down or up.
I ask because I came out with a calculation of 394.9. I want to say that it'll round down to 394, but if it rounds up, I could be outsped unless I pump more EVs into speed - when I already want to have a +2 speed boost. I also want to have as much bulk as possible.
Once again, thanks for the help. I hope I can finally get into the competitive scene soon.
 
The issue with dusclops is it is probably the best wall in the game, but it does nothing besides wall. With no practicality other than to be incredibly bulky, there is little reason to give an analysis on a pokemon so rarely seen in OU. I tried it on a stall team and quickly passed it up for other options because of it's lack of usefulness.
I agree with you on that, but I found Dusclops being much more useful on more offensive-oriented teams with just 2 walls (physical and special one). I don't want to talk about it more here, I just wanted do give you guys idea of some new analysis. Anyways, thanks for replying :)
 

Halcyon.

@Choice Specs
is a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus
Sorry to bother you guys, but I wonder if someone could do Dusclops OU analysis? I use it in almost every team on PS and it works really well stoping some physical monsters (for example Dragonite, Kangaskhan [unless it carries Crunch], Medicham or Lucario cannot touch this thing). I know it may sound like I am too lazy to do something like that on my own, but I simply think that I am not really good at making professional analysis etc. also I am not from England and I still have some drawbacks in grammar and all that language stuff. So, is anyone intrested in doing Dusclops OU analysis please? :)
Greetings.
Dusclops has already been proposed and rejected by the OU Quality Control team. The reasons being that it doesn't really do much (just sits there and walls, but lacks reliable recovery and even leftovers), and there are almost always better Ghosts out there who can do its job and more.
 
Speed Boost might not be Uber-tier on its own, but it's still pretty horrendous. It's like Moody, only without the luck aspect. It's an unbalanced ability that can be easily abused with the right Pokemon and the right movesets.

If you were to ban Speed Boost, that would make things much simpler. The only things it would really hit are Ninjask, Scolipede, and Yanmega, all of whom can move on with their other abilities (Scolipede managed fine without Speed Boost; he'll do fine without it now).

I don't think you're going to get many angry letters from people saying that their life has been ruined because they can't use the marvel that is Yanmega.
 
Speed Boost might not be Uber-tier on its own, but it's still pretty horrendous. It's like Moody, only without the luck aspect. It's an unbalanced ability that can be easily abused with the right Pokemon and the right movesets.
Yeah, the luck aspect was pretty important when it came to why Moody was banned. The luck, the Evasion boost, and the fact that it's a free +2 per turn (versus Speed Boost's free +1). It's a pretty clear difference in terms of competitive viability.

If you were to ban Speed Boost, that would make things much simpler. The only things it would really hit are Ninjask, Scolipede, and Yanmega, all of whom can move on with their other abilities (Scolipede managed fine without Speed Boost; he'll do fine without it now).

I don't think you're going to get many angry letters from people saying that their life has been ruined because they can't use the marvel that is Yanmega.
We're getting a letter from you saying your life is ruined because you can't use the marvel that is Blaziken.

Ninjask would be crippled and probably go to NU, as would Yanmega. Scolipede would not be OU viable at all (Speed Boost is the only reason it's being used enough to make it OU). And all of this so that we can move Blaziken into the UU tier itself, since Blaze Blaziken is still simply mediocre.

Why should the entire tiering system and the basis for how things are analyzed and setup change just so you can use your favorite Pokémon? If you're playing things "for fun", then the tiers don't matter. If you're playing competitively, you have to follow the rules of the competitive systems.
 
Moody is only +1 per turn. It's +2 to one thing, yes, but it's also -1 to something else. It might be something insignificant that's lost, but if they get, say, +2 Special Attack and -1 Speed and they're Bibarel, they're pretty boned.

Also, Scolipede has been in OU regardless of Speed Boost.
 
Moody is only +1 per turn. It's +2 to one thing, yes, but it's also -1 to something else. It might be something insignificant that's lost, but if they get, say, +2 Special Attack and -1 Speed and they're Bibarel, they're pretty boned.
Yes, which is why the "luck based" is a point against Moody. Luck is not strategy, and counting on luck for good boosts is not competitively viable. Luck should not dictate victory. If Moody did not have the luck, and, say, gave a fixed +2 to Speed and -1 to Special Attack, or something similar every time, it would be considered being banned for being overpowered.

Moody is currently bannedd because it is uncompetitive and can dictate how battles play out (and who wins) because of luck. It is not banned for being overpowered.

Also, Scolipede has been in OU regardless of Speed Boost.
Really? Good to know. But I'm fairly sure that in the current metagame, he'd drop to UU without Speed Boost.
 
Why? He's double-resistant to fighting and grass, and can take out fairies, grass, dark, and psychics with ease, with enough speed to get a good sweep across with a Band. He's got a lot of options.

Point being, While Speed Boost may not be as overpowered as Moody, it's still overpowered. You protect once, get an instant +1 Speed. Now you're fast enough to sweep (or, heaven forbid, pass the savings on to Metagross or Bisharp something that could really hurt with it).
 

blitzlefan

shake it off!
Moody is only +1 per turn. It's +2 to one thing, yes, but it's also -1 to something else. It might be something insignificant that's lost, but if they get, say, +2 Special Attack and -1 Speed and they're Bibarel, they're pretty boned.

Also, Scolipede has been in OU regardless of Speed Boost.
Speed Boost and Moody are such vastly different things - I don't think you really understand. Moody is ridiculously luck-based and uncompetitive, to the point that we even banned it in Ubers. If Glalie / Bibarel / Smeargle can score a speed boost or an evasion boost first turn with Protect, it can Subsitute / Protect stall its way to victory without too much difficulty, without any skill required. Moody also has next to nothing to do with your argument, so please just drop the issue.

Why? He's double-resistant to fighting and grass, and can take out fairies, grass, dark, and psychics with ease, with enough speed to get a good sweep across with a Band. He's got a lot of options.

Point being, While Speed Boost may not be as overpowered as Moody, it's still overpowered. You protect once, get an instant +1 Speed. Now you're fast enough to sweep (or, heaven forbid, pass the savings on to Metagross or Bisharp something that could really hurt with it).
Though Speed Boost is a very powerful ability, it's not broken. However, it does push Blaziken over the edge, as it has High Jump Kick, Flare Blitz, Swords Dance, and is boosted in sun. I'll assume you know these things, so I won't delve into the details. Though Scolipede gets a buff through Speed Boost, it's not too strong for OU, and so it's not banned, despite having the same ability as Blaziken. Therefore, banning Speed Boost across the board (Ninjask, Yanmega, etc.) would be a meaningless nerf to a handful of Pokemon, and for what reason? Just so people that like Blaziken can use it???

There's really no point in arguing this again and again, I highly doubt you're going to get anywhere through repetitive arguments, so please just stop.
 
Hello, I watched this video
and the author said in the mock battle that taunt is affected by Venomoth's Wonder skin. I've always thought Wonder skin only worked with move that inflict status conditions like T-wave. Anyone knows which moves are affected by the ability ?
 
Why? He's double-resistant to fighting and grass, and can take out fairies, grass, dark, and psychics with ease, with enough speed to get a good sweep across with a Band. He's got a lot of options.

Point being, While Speed Boost may not be as overpowered as Moody, it's still overpowered. You protect once, get an instant +1 Speed. Now you're fast enough to sweep (or, heaven forbid, pass the savings on to Metagross or Bisharp something that could really hurt with it).
Moody is not being strictly banned for being overpowered, it is being banned because it is uncompetitive, and can lead to victories purely on account of luck.

And Speed Boost is not overpowered. There are plenty of priority moves that can bypass it no longer how much you boost up with it. None of the really, really slow "sweepers" will be fast enough to matter, even with a +1. And most of the Pokémon which receive Speed Boost are weak, frail, and extremely vulnerable on their own. Arguing that a turn spent Protecting followed by a Baton Pass is overpowered by itself is ridiculous. That's two free turns for your opponent to set up. With a move like Dragon Dance, which, used both turns, grants plus TWO speed, AND plus two attack. And, again, a single boost to speed is not going to game-change the meta all on its own.

You still have yet to list a single argument for not-banning Blaziken except "I like Blaziken". This is a community for serious competition. Playing with your favorites is not the intent. Providing a clear, organized, well structured, fair, and competitive metagame is the goal. If you don't like it, you don't have to play in circles that follow Smogon's guidelines.
 
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