Other ORAS OU Viability Ranking Thread V2 - Check Post #2500 PG. 100

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You're using non-Adamant Victini in your calcs. Keep in mind that non-Adamant Victini's V-Create is 10% stronger, and it will still outspeed Emboar (most people run +Atk CB Victini anyway). Also, Emboar takes massive recoil damage, whereas Victini does not.
I seem to recall Choice Band Victini running Jolly anyway because you could gain more from out speeding or tying with other base 100s than hitting 10% harder but either way the difference isn't that huge.

I guess my main argument is that there are clearly things that Emboar has over Victini, and clearly things the Victini has over Emboar.
But are the things Victini has over Emboar really that relevant and the things Emboar has over Victini that irrelevant that Emboar would wind up in D rank?
I honestly don't think so and even C could be underselling in my eyes but regardless at this stage I reckon we just need to get it out of D.
 

Karxrida

Death to the Undying Savage
is a Community Contributor Alumnus
Mega Sableye says hi
Skill Swap.

It boils down to a prediction war with your opponent whether or not it will succeed, but you can still get past it. It's also not on every team so Azelf will still get work done against every team without a Mega Sableye/Diancie. It's nigh-impossible to stop it from rockin' 100% of the time unless you have Taunt Thundurus or Mega Lopunny with Fake Out.

Keep Azelf as is.
 

DarkNostalgia

Fading in, fading out, on the edge of paradise
is a Contributor Alumnus
Tons that I wanna say have been said already, so I'll just put my thoughts out for now.

Landorus to S is something I support. It's RP set is terrifying to face breaking pretty much all three playstyles at once. Not much I wanna say hasn't been said so I'll just leave it there.
Sableye to A+ is something I support too. Sableye is really overrated imo, and it's really not great in practice. Rise of Charizards, T-flames, fairies, stuff like SD gliscor, more special attackers etc. really hurt it, and it's lackluster HP is pretty bad. Don't want to keep saying the same arguments over and over again.
Starmie to A Probably support to A. It's niche is reflect type as well as spinning fast, but if running reflect type (say a set of recover,scald, rapid spin, reflect type) you're walled by every single dragon, water, grass type. Including keldeo, who you're supposed to "check". Get rid of reflect type for psyshock and you'll beat conk, keldeo etc. but lose to bisharp and t-tar. However I do agree that starmie is probably the best offensive spinner rn, and I do support a move up to A just since it's speed outpaces so many things in the meta. Again, many things I wanna has been said :(
 
Alright, I can see the argument against it, and I now realize it is fine where its at. Maybe I have a bias against Venusaur since it was my first favorite Pokemon but whatever. Retracting my nom.
We should all have Venusaur bias. @.@ It's still my favorite pokemon amd mega.

On topic though I would like to move agree with Kyub to A-. Lately he is a pokemon who has been picking up a lot of steam imo. He hits so damn hard. :) it can actually 2khod clefable if using a the LO wallbreaking set, and deal with loads of other things that would otherwise check it thanks to teravolt. One of the only pokes I can think of that handle it are other dragons, gardevoir and sylveon. Oh metagross too, but everything else is going to being taking huge hits from it.
 
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I'll write more about this, but I don't support Gliscor for S rank. It is a Pokemon that has way too much pressure put on it, and everything that it checks has a way to beat it. Landorus has HP Ice. Gengar has Icy Wind (as seen in SPL). Lopunny / Metagross have Ice Punch. You can't switch into Sableye immediately for fear of Knock Off or WoW catching you before you've been Toxic'd. A lot of people put it on a team and expect it to just work at countering all these things, but it just doesn't work that way. Seems like a pretty similar Pokemon to XY Rotom-W, which had the same problem. The only difference being better bulk and having offensive presence, but Rotom-W was like B+ in XY so I think that even though Gliscor is a better Pokemon, its flaws should be enough to keep it out of S rank. Great mon? Yes. But not S rank, imo.
Not saying that I support Glis to S but u have to think about why people run moves like icy wind / hp ice gengar, hp ice lando and ice punch on lopunny. Exactly they're running those moves only for one pokemon and that pokemon is glis. Nobody played icy wind / hp ice gengar in xy and hp ice lando wasn't very common too and that shows how strong sd glis influences the meta and limits team building since people have to use those suboptimal moves to be able to beat sd glis and even if they have those moves it's not said that they can stop sd glis from sweeping their teams.

Rotom-W was A - A + in late XY btw just to have that said.


Next thing I support is moving up Hippowdown from A- Rank to A+ or at least to A since it just can perform very very well as a physical defensive which is able to counter a ton of things (Thundurus, Raikou, MZard X, MMetagross, DD MAltaria (it needs Whirlwind to block sweeps), Landorus-T, Heatran, Jirachi, SD Glis, Talonflame, MPinsir, Bisharp, Ttar, MManectric and a lot of other physical sweepers or electrics not being able to hit it super effective, it even has a shot against Gengars without Taunt by just stalling out there HP with LO and stuff like that) and it's also able to support the Team with Rocks which makes it to a 'mon u can put on a lot of teams as bulky grounds which has access to non-lefties recovery and without an huge ground weakness whithout losing much. It's only real flaw is that it gives a free switchin to a lot of things which makes it to a momentum killer.
 
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Not saying that I support Glis to S but u have to think about why people run moves like icy wind / hp ice gengar, hp ice lando and ice punch on lopunny. Exactly they're running those moves only for one pokemon and that pokemon is glis. Nobody played icy wind / hp ice gengar in xy and hp ice lando wasn't very common too and that shows ho strong sd glis influences the meta and limits team building since people have to use those suboptimal moves to be able to beat sd glis and even if they have those moves it's not said that they can stop sd glis from sweeping their teams.

Rotom-W was A - A + in late XY btw just to have that said.
By the same token, could you not nominate Magnezone to move up just because steel-type are running Shed Shell for it? No, in fact it has to move down because all those steels are running Shed Shell for it. It's very plain and simple: the reason might be for that Pokémon, but the outcome is that the Pokémon they're run for is hence made less viable by the fact that this thing is being run for it. If ice moves are that common, then I'm afraid that's a point against Gliscor rather than a point for.
I'm not arguing for or against Gliscor here but I really had to address this.
 
Neither Magnezone nor Shed Shell have a very high usage atm so u really can't compare these situations. Also an item isn't that important for skarm and ferro like a moveslot for gengar and lando since ferro or skarm are usually knocked off sooner or later anyway so it's nice for them to have a protection against zone early game.
 
Neither Magnezone nor Shed Shell have a very high usage atm so u really can't compare these situations. Also an item isn't that important for skarm and ferro like a moveslot for gengar and lando since ferro or skarm are usually knocked off sooner or later anyway so it's nice for them to have a protection against zone early game.
It's a very comparable situation as Magnezone once had an extremely high amount of usage. Even taking out my example, the point still stands -- if ice moves are common, that's a point against Gliscor rather than a point for, even if the reason is Gliscor putting pressure on the meta. I don't see what's so hard to understand here.
 
I just said in post #1740 that it shows how much sd glis influences the game and limits in team building and not that the usage of those ice moves makes it better or anything like that. U have to read a post exactly before u answer to it.
 
I really think the notion of gliscor rising to S rank is absurd. There is no doubt it is a great pokemon but the ubiquity of it has, as stated above, led to stuff like icy wind gengar and hp ice lando I leaving it unable to beat the pokemon it's spdef set was designed to beat. It also has movepool issues. It's sd set is really effective but is forced out by stuff like keldeo and slowbro and while it has plenty of options in the moveset it has to choose between breaking stall(taunt) or more recovery other than poison heal(roost), the lack of consistent flying stab also makes it too reliant on earthquake and unstab knock off allowing many ground resists/immuni ties to beat a +2 gliscor. It may have stealth rock but it is honestly not a very good user of as it is unable to break stall and already suffers a bit 4mss, not to mention it loses to starmie and latios 2 common hazard removers.
 
I can actually see Aurious's point in this situation.

Gliscor making some 'mon use Ice Moves where they normally wouldn't for the sole existence of not being walled by it shares some similarities to Aegislash. Weren't there some Pokemon, like Mega Pinsir and Terrakion, who had to run Earthquake just because of the presence Aegislash when they had rather use another move (Close Combat on M-Pinsir) to hit a wider variety of threats? If these 'mon are using Icy Wind/HP Ice solely for Gliscor and really not much else then its actually points in Gliscor favor in terms of moving him up. As what you'd expect from S-Rank pokemon, he's making the meta conform to deal with him, unlike Mega-Sableye who people are agreeing to drop as one of the points against it is that the Meta is naturally become prepared against it while not specifically aiming for him.
 
I can actually see Aurious's point in this situation.

Gliscor making some 'mon use Ice Moves where they normally wouldn't for the sole existence of not being walled by it shares some similarities to Aegislash. Weren't there some Pokemon, like Mega Pinsir and Terrakion, who had to run Earthquake just because of the presence Aegislash when they had rather use another move (Close Combat on M-Pinsir) to hit a wider variety of threats? If these 'mon are using Icy Wind/HP Ice solely for Gliscor and really not much else then its actually points in Gliscor favor in terms of moving him up. As what you'd expect from S-Rank pokemon, he's making the meta conform to deal with him, unlike Mega-Sableye who people are agreeing to drop as one of the points against it is that the Meta is naturally become prepared against it while not specifically aiming for him.
Yes the fact that is centralising could be a reason but other 4x weak to ice mons are common and either gengar or landorus running an ice move (very common) means gliscor flat out loses. Losing to 2 pokemon that it is meant to beat is not a means for it to rise.
 
I can actually see Aurious's point in this situation.

Gliscor making some 'mon use Ice Moves where they normally wouldn't for the sole existence of not being walled by it shares some similarities to Aegislash. Weren't there some Pokemon, like Mega Pinsir and Terrakion, who had to run Earthquake just because of the presence Aegislash when they had rather use another move (Close Combat on M-Pinsir) to hit a wider variety of threats? If these 'mon are using Icy Wind/HP Ice solely for Gliscor and really not much else then its actually points in Gliscor favor in terms of moving him up. As what you'd expect from S-Rank pokemon, he's making the meta conform to deal with him, unlike Mega-Sableye who people are agreeing to drop as one of the points against it is that the Meta is naturally become prepared against it while not specifically aiming for him.
You guys are missing the point. We're not ranking a Pokemon's influence on the meta, we're ranking how a certain mon performs in the meta on a game to game basis. More ice moves in the meta is bad for Gliscor, no matter why they came to be used.
 

Feraliagtr is an interesting pokemon, at the start of the year he was nothing more than a weaker mega/Normal-Gyarados and even in the lower tiers he has little time in the lime light, but February changed that all and gave feraliagtr a gift from the gods, sheer force. With sheer force feraligatr becomes infinitely more powerful, than he once was was, with a 1.3x boost if his attacks have a secondary effect. With a diverse move pool to abuse his ability or destroy would be counters including ; ice punch, aqua jet, waterfall, crunch, dragon dance, swords dance, superpower, focus miss (yes he can even use it), earthquake, agility and rock slide. Closest comparison to gatr is gyarados. There naturally exists pros and cons to using one or the other, with gyarados having - slightly greater speed, access to intimidate before or never mega evolving and a typing that allows it to set up on a greater number of threats with resistances to fighting, bug and immunity to ground to name a few in his normal state, while having acess to excellent duel stab in his mega form (through less than stellar defensive typing). However gatr bring with him his own perks over gyarados including - access to recoil absent life orb in combination with sheer force boost making gatr more powerful than gyarados as shown bellow, in addition to a more stellar defensive typing than mega gyarados and lakc of a sr weakness of normal gyarados.

Jolly

gyarados lo -252 Atk Life Orb Gyarados Bounce vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mew: 126-149 (31.1 - 36.8%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
feraligatr lo-252 Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Feraligatr Waterfall vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mew: 152-179 (37.6 - 44.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
m-gyarados -252 Atk Gyarados Waterfall vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mew: 93-109 (23 - 26.9%) -- possible 5HKO after Leftovers recovery​

adamant

m-gayardos - 252+ Atk Gyarados Waterfall vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mew: 102-120 (25.2 - 29.7%) -- 0% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
gyarados lo -252+ Atk Life Orb Gyarados Waterfall vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mew: 133-156 (32.9 - 38.6%) -- 2.7% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
feraligatr - 252+ Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Feraligatr Crunch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mew: 203-239 (50.2 - 59.1%) -- 76.6% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers​

Feraligatr has 3 main viable sets at his dsiposal - swords dance, double dance and dragon dance.

-Life orb
6 Hp / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Jolly
-Waterfall
-Dragon dance
-Ice Punch/Superpower
-Crunch/Superpower

Simple dragon dance set, ice/ or fighting/ or dark coverage, boosted by sheer force and life orb. I won't explain this with further comparisons to gyarados as I have covered it already, but with decent 85/100/83 bulk, an acceptable boostign speed of 78 and excellent coverage options, decent defenive typing, gatr can pull off a gyarados like dragon dance set pretty well.


6 Hp / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Jolly
-Waterfall
-Swords Dance
-Aqua jet
-Crunch/Superpower


With swords dances gatr aims to act as a wall breaker par exallance with acess to priority to take out speedy threats. Unfortunately Aqua jet does not get the boost from sheer force, but does gain power from stab and swords dance to handle weakened or frailer threats and naturally hits hard with stab dark/water life orb sheer boosted coverage after a swords dance as well. Unlike crawdant gatr is much bulkier and finds it easier to set up a swords dance as a result of this and a betetr defensive typing and survive a few hits potentially afterwards too.


6 Hp / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Adamant/Joly
-Waterfall
-Swords dance
-Agility
-Crunch/Superpower

Double Dance gatr, allows gatr to abuse waterfall and crunch more flexibly, reaching 510 speed after an agility adamant or jolly up to 560 if one wants to out speed certain scarfers. With swords dance allowing gatr to act as a wall breaker against more defensive teams and against more hyper offensive builds with speed boost from agility whil maintaining a good amount of power thanks to sheer force lo boosted moves, this gatr tries to cover the bases.


While gatr does face competition from his fellow water types in crawdaunt, gyarados and to a less extent azumaril. His combination of good/decent bulk, an adequate typing, access to a diverse movepool and of course the the raw power of sheer force life orb boosted coverage and waterfall, is enough to merit him a place amongst the ranks of ou viable mons.
 
Although I think you have an interesting point, I'm having difficulty seeing how Emboar is viable. Obviously the Fighting STAB is a leg up on Victini, but as you said before, it has crippling speed and poor longevity.

This seems in line with your arguments, as Emboar is fundamentally outclassed by Victini, and its crippling speed and longevity means it will have trouble doing its job. Unless you offer more detailed examples of how Emboar can be utilized, I don't see why it should move up in the rankings.
There are some perks. Emboar has priority in Sucker Punch, is not SR weak, and can't be Pursuit trapped. Victini also has an annoying Knock Off weakness.

Access to Sucker Punch alone is very underrated. It means Lati@s and Gengar can't afford to revenge kill it. C- is perfectly justifiable for Emboar.

And I'm not seeing Gliscor as S, that's just way too high. It's easy to see how it can be hell for Stall and balance teams, it has good speed for a wall, isn't crippled by Knock Off after PH activates, and can heal with Protect as well as Roost. I certainly think it is as good as the other A+ mon like Heatran and Clefable, who can do multiple things very well with huge niches, but is simply isn't S rank. I'm not doing a good job substantiating my argument obviously.
 

Poek

squadala
is a Tiering Contributor Alumnuswon the 3rd Official Ladder Tournamentis a defending SPL Championis a Two-Time Past SCL Champion
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I think we need to wait more time to start thinking about ranking Gatr.
As much as I love it, Gatr has a lot of flaws. It has really heavy 4MSS, thus getting check'd or counter'd by a large amount of things. Azumarill, Rotom-W, Keldeo, Gyarados, MVenusaur wall its entire coverage alone and thats just the most relevant ones, without taking into account Alomomola, Quagsire and friends. If it lacks fighting coverage, Ferrothorn walls it, if it lacks Ice Punch MAltaria, Chesnaught, Tangrowth and Amoonguss wall it, if it lacks Crunch Slowbro says hi, and if you lack Aqua Jet you're going to be revenge killed fairly easily when using a DD set, because lets be real, Gatr has small amounts of chances to set-up, and when it can, its just easily checked. My problem with Gatr is that it lacks a secondary STAB move, and therefore it can't really damage everything it wanted to. Yes, MGyara lacked a secondary STAB in XY, but MGyara had Mold Breaker to break would be checks/counters to it such as Quagsire and Rotom-W, while having intimidate pre MEvo so it had a better chance trying to set-up.
No matter what Gatr does, it's going to be stopped by something on every team. This doesn't mean it shouldn't be ranked however, its just that there hasn't really been enough time for us to realize what is the best set for it and we should therefore, wait a few more weeks before nominating Gatr.
 
I think we need to wait more time to start thinking about ranking Gatr.
As much as I love it, Gatr has a lot of flaws. It has really heavy 4MSS, thus getting check'd or counter'd by a large amount of things. Azumarill, Rotom-W, Keldeo, Gyarados, MVenusaur wall its entire coverage alone and thats just the most relevant ones, without taking into account Alomomola, Quagsire and friends. If it lacks fighting coverage, Ferrothorn walls it, if it lacks Ice Punch MAltaria, Chesnaught, Tangrowth and Amoonguss wall it, if it lacks Crunch Slowbro says hi, and if you lack Aqua Jet you're going to be revenge killed fairly easily when using a DD set, because lets be real, Gatr has small amounts of chances to set-up, and when it can, its just easily checked. My problem with Gatr is that it lacks a secondary STAB move, and therefore it can't really damage everything it wanted to. Yes, MGyara lacked a secondary STAB in XY, but MGyara had Mold Breaker to break would be checks/counters to it such as Quagsire and Rotom-W, while having intimidate pre MEvo so it had a better chance trying to set-up.
No matter what Gatr does, it's going to be stopped by something on every team. This doesn't mean it shouldn't be ranked however, its just that there hasn't really been enough time for us to realize what is the best set for it and we should therefore, wait a few more weeks before nominating Gatr.
With that in mind, what kind of sets should we probably evaluate on? So far the two I know are SD Wallbreaker and DD sweeper.
 
With that in mind, what kind of sets should we probably evaluate on? So far the two I know are SD Wallbreaker and DD sweeper.
Doubl dance gatr is also an option, i mentioned it earlier, it takes advantage of waterfall/crunches power rathr than relying on aqua jet to beat faster offensive threats ont he purely SD set. Agility for frail offensive threats, swords dance for wall breaking, it's main down fall is you ahve to chose most times to either set up or agility or swords dance, you usually won't get a chance to set up both, but gatr dos have the raw power to pull it off rather well and adequate speed up to 560 if jolly and 510 if adamant and a bas attack counting sheer force of 573 if adamant, (1.3 x 339 then that multiplied if I am not mistaken) and 522 roughly if jolly.
 
I'd like to bring up Mega Gardevoir moving up to A+ rank.

Outside of things such as Jirachi or SDef Talonflame, many stall teams struggle to deal with Mega Gardevoir's insane special attacking prowess, and her 4th move (Taunt being optimal vs. stall) makes stall dread her even more.

Also, typical offensive teams often lack reliable switch-ins, and are thus likely to take loads of damage -- or outright lose a mon -- should Mega Garde get an opportunity to fire off an attack.

I always see her cited as a dangerous threat to many teams, and in my anecdotal experience, using (and facing) her seems to affirm her threatening presence, which I believe justifies a move to A+.
 
I'd like to bring up Mega Gardevoir moving up to A+ rank.

Outside of things such as Jirachi or SDef Talonflame, many stall teams struggle to deal with Mega Gardevoir's insane special attacking prowess, and her 4th move (Taunt being optimal vs. stall) makes stall dread her even more.

Also, typical offensive teams often lack reliable switch-ins, and are thus likely to take loads of damage -- or outright lose a mon -- should Mega Garde get an opportunity to fire off an attack.

I always see her cited as a dangerous threat to many teams, and in my anecdotal experience, using (and facing) her seems to affirm her threatening presence, which I believe justifies a move to A+.
I agree with this. M-Gardevoir has almost no safe switch-in's except SpD Jirachi and if you're really worried about it, you can just slap on a pursuit TTar. In a currently bulky metagame, M-Gardevoir's ability to tear apart balance and stall so easily is just amazing. It creates a position for the opponent where they either sack a Pokemon or send out a steel type (which still takes a LOT of damage). Steel types aren't even safe as they fear focus blast.

It's often overlooked SpD stat allows it check neutral hits for special attackers. It's speed also is very underrated. I know 100 isn't as great as it used to be but for a wallbreaker it's actually very respectable especially when compared to other wallbreakers such as Diggersby, Azumaril, M-Heracross, Crawdaunt and Kingdra.

Oh, and Trace pre mega-evolution is awesome.
 
Maybe we're all wrong, and if it can't have the turns to set up then it could use a choice band? Or even assault vest with SD pass from celebi. Don't get me wrong, I've never used it, so I wouldn't know, but could an all out attacker be better than trying to set up? Especially if it's used as a wall breaker. It also gives it more coverage too (after switching ofcourse)
 
While I don't believe the ORAS metagame has been any worse to Mega Manectric compared to XY, the introduction of new megas has certainly increased the opportunity cost for mega man. I believe most people opt to run Raikou + another mega in today's metagame. Mega man seems more like a Mega you build a team around rather than add it during the process. On offensive I'd rather have a Raikou + Lopunny, on rain teams i'd much rather Raikou + MZor/MPert, bulky AV Raikou has been rising to check Gengar/MZardY. While I think Mega Man itself is superior to Raikou, the latter brings enough to the table to justify using him and another mega a good amount of the time. It seems like most people agreed Raikou should move up a rank, and by moving Mega Manectric down to A-, they would be on the same level in terms of viability.
Completely disagree with this, while mega man does take up a mega slot it is ultimately a better and more reliable raikou. It boasts similar defensive utility to av raikou although on the physical side with intimidate whilst being able to get past ferrothorn. It is also far less prediction reliant than specs raikou as it has the ability to change moves, and if it is a fair bit more powerful than the weak unboosted raikou.
 
Completely disagree with this, while mega man does take up a mega slot it is ultimately a better and more reliable raikou. It boasts similar defensive utility to av raikou although on the physical side with intimidate whilst being able to get past ferrothorn. It is also far less prediction reliant than specs raikou as it has the ability to change moves, and if it is a fair bit more powerful than the weak unboosted raikou.
Raikou and manetric function very diffrntly in their approtch. Raikou can act as a specially defensive offensive pivot with assault vest or a hard hitting speedy user of choice specs, manetric does none of these things. Manetric by virtue of intimidate gains pseudo physical bulk, it does not come into special attacks as it lacks the bulk to do so unlike Raikou which has assult vest to bloister it's good special bulk to take the odd hit from special attackers, manetic can come in on physically biased attacks, which raikou cannot. They have two similar but otherwise different roles on a team, if you desire a an eletric type piovt that can handl the like of starmie, thundrous, ect. raikou is your mon, if you want a hard hitting electric pivot, specs raikou is your mon and if you want a pivot and you have a free mega slot that can come in on physical biased attackers easier, manetric is your mon. They play different roles on teams and thus should be treated differently. Just because they are both pivots does not mean they function in exactly in the same role, they have different roles as bulky or hard hitting pivots and should be treated differently.
 
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