Resource ORAS OU Viability Ranking Thread V3 - Read Post 3451 Page 139

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Credit to PK Gaming for the format

Welcome to the official OU Viability Rankings topic. You should know the drill by now; In this thread, we as a community will rank every single usable Pokemon into "tiers." In this thread, you're encouraged to post your thoughts and opinions on the various Pokemon that are usable in OU and what tier they should fall under. Posts in this thread will be taken into account when deciding rank changes.

The general idea of the topic is to rank each OU pokemon under "rankings" that go in descending order. Since this is a general tier list, everything is lumped together. There won't be any segregation between offense & defense threats.

  • EX: Garchomp can be ranked in A tier as an offensive threat, Ferrothorn can be ranked under A as supportive threat and Skarmory can be can also be ranked in B tier as a defensive threat. These are just examples not representative of their future or current ranks.
Finally, here are the people that have the final say on what gets moved in the ranking list (as in, the people that gather the community's input to make final decisions, as well as being well informed players themselves):

Ranking Team Co-Leaders:

Additional members:
SETS: If looking for sets they can be found in the preliminary pokedex sub-forum along with the OU Analyses sub-forum for WIP.

http://www.smogon.com/dex/xy/pokemon
http://www.smogon.com/forums/forums/ou-analyses.255/
Sets viability thread can be found in this link below for discussion of which sets are more viable than others in the meta.

http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/oras-ou-sets-viability-rankings-v3.3537590/page-2


Discussion Point:

http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/oras-ou-viability-ranking-thread-v3-read-post-3256-page-131.3536420/page-139#post-6443338

ORAS OU Ranking Tier List

(In alphabetical order)

S Rank:

S Rank

Charizard (Mega-X)
Clefable

Manaphy
Sableye (Mega)



A Rank:

A+ Rank

Alakazam (Mega)
Altaria (Mega)
Azumarill
Bisharp
Diancie (Mega)
Excadrill
Ferrothorn
Garchomp
Heatran

Hippowdon
Hoopa Unbound
Keldeo
Landorus-T
Lopunny (Mega)
Latios
Metagross (Mega)
Scizor (Mega)
Talonflame
Thundurus
Tornadus-T
Weavile

A Rank

Charizard (Mega-Y)
Gardevoir (Mega)
Gengar
Gliscor
Gyarados (Mega)
Kyurem-B
Latias
Manectric (Mega)

Mew
Skarmory
Slowbro

Slowbro (Mega)
Tyranitar
Venusaur (Mega)

A- Rank

Aerodactyl (Mega)
Alakazam
Celebi
Gyarados
Jirachi
Klefki
Magnezone

Medicham (Mega)
Pinsir (Mega)
Politoed
Raikou
Rotom-W
Serperior
Starmie
Volcarona


B Rank:

B+ Rank

Breloom
Diggersby
Dragalge
Dragonite

Feraligatr
Gallade (Mega)
Heracross (Mega)
Kabutops
Kingdra

Latias (Mega)
Mamoswine
Suicune
Swampert (Mega)
Terrakion
Togekiss
Victini

B Rank

Beedrill (Mega)
Chansey
Empoleon
Garchomp (Mega)
Gastrodon
Gothitelle
Hawlucha
Hydreigon
Omastar
Quagsire
Reuniclus
Scizor

Scolipede
Sharpedo (Mega)
Slowking

Tangrowth
Tyranitar (Mega)
Zapdos

B- Rank

Amoonguss
Azelf
Chesnaught
Crawdaunt
Lucario
Magneton
Mandibuzz
Pidgeot (Mega)
Sceptile (Mega)
Sylveon

Tentacruel
Thundurus-T

Toxicroak
Tyrantrum


C Rank:

C+ Rank

Alomomola
Ampharos (Mega)
Blastoise (Mega)
Bronzong
Cobalion
Conkeldurr
Entei
Houndoom (Mega)

Infernape
Kyurem
Metagross
Nidoking
Rhyperior
Seismitoad
Staraptor
Wobbuffet

C Rank

Absol (Mega)
Banette (Mega)
Cofagrigus
Dugtrio
Goodra
Gourgeist-XL
Hoopa

Heracross
Krookodile
Latios (Mega)
Porygon2

Rotom-H
Shuckle
Venusaur
Whimsicott


C- Rank

Aggron (Mega)
Camerupt (Mega)
Cloyster
Cresselia
Forretress
Froslass
Nidoqueen
Roserade
Shaymin
Zygarde


D Rank:
Blissey
Chandelure
Crobat
Emboar
Haxorus
Honchkrow
Jellicent
Meloetta
Mienshao
Pangoro
Sableye
Salamence
Shedinja


Rules - Now updated 8/18/2015
  • Post intelligently. Posts like "I think pokemon X should be in this tier" will be deleted.
  • No flaming and being an idiot. You'll get warned if you purposely do.
  • Usage statistics may be used to support an argument or a claim, but don't base your ENTIRE argument around them. For example, you can't just say "Pokemon X shouldn't be this tier because they aren't used that often!"
  • Suspect talk, unrelated stuff, one liners that ask questions that provide no substance, something that doesn't really pertain to rankings or petty arguments about semantics and definitions, such as the definition of a counter as one example, will be deleted.
  • PKGaming is amazing. This is an undisputed fact.... that apparently still holds true due to creating the format so I guess I'm leaving it here.
Blacklisted Pokemon: If these are brought up in thread post and any posts replying to it will be deleted.
  • Mega Latios

Happy posting ♪♪
 
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New thread and update time.
Code:
Empoleon: Up to B
Skarmory: Up to A-
M-Medicham: Up To B-
Starmie: Stays in A
Tyrantrum: Up to B-
Alakazam: Up to B-
Serperior: Up to B+
Gardevoir: Unranked to D
Garchomp: Up to A+
Blissey: Up to C
Forretress: Unranked to D
Zapdos: Up to B
Slowking: Up to B
Lucario: Stays in B-
Conkeldurr: Stays in B
M-Alakazam: Up to A
Scolipede: Up to B
There isn't exactly anything very specific we're looking to move or down at this point more so gauging the opinions of others as to their placement in where if they should be higher or lower. From ben some ideas of what we're considering. This is really just a quick run down of what he wanted to discuss so nothing too in depth.

Clefable - idk just threw this in there cuz it checks/walls a lot of the meta despite the presence of metagross which ppl exaggerated so potential S and better than most of A+
M-Gyarados - versatility in the tier lets it adapt and better than most in A
Manaphy - is weak against offense argument enough to stay A or go A+
Tornadus-T - hurrimiss but other than that fits A+
Chansey- stall isn't as prominent as it once was
Mega Houndoom - ive seen arguments for a rise and for a drop, who am I to believe
Mega Pidgeot- if torn rose, shouldn't pidgeot is the logic
Mega Ampharos -http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/oras-ou-viability-ranking-thread-v2-check-post-2500-pg-100.3526596/page-114#post-6161606

Took a quick vote on Infernape and Scizor but it came down to an equal consensus in where a move up or down couldn't be legitimately placed so these two will be part of discussion so to speak as well.

Anyways so there it is and let's keep it going.

Edit: Oh and we need a new banner to reflect ORAS.
 
Manaphy isn't weak against offense. Just because it doesn't single-handedly demolish offense in one slot doesn't mean it's bad. It just isn't at its best against it. Still, having an offensive Water-type other than Keldeo that doesn't take up your Mega slot is valuable, even against offense, as it can usually chew any single hit and threaten back with at least a STAB Scald. And Manaphy is so good against balanced teams that it more than makes up for its shortcomings against offense.

Unlike Manaphy, Mega Pidgeot does take up your Mega slot, which is an immediate downside compared to Tornadus, which you can slap on any team.

Mega Houndoom seems mediocre. I don't think I'd rank it highly in a metagame filled with Keldeo, Mega Diancie, and Mega Altaria. I'd rather see it drop than rise for sure.
 

bludz

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So I think Infernape should move up to C+ (and maybe even B- in the future). It has a wide movepool and while its offensive stats aren't the best it makes up for this by having a lot of high base power moves like Overheat, Fire Blast, Flare Blitz, Close Combat, Gunk Shot and Stone Edge.

I've been using a mixed LO wallbreaker set with Fire Blast / Close Combat / Gunk Shot / Grass Knot and really not much walls it. Latis come in fairly reliably but Keldeo has a similar problem and Gunk Shot hits pretty hard with a solid chance to poison as well. I've heard that SD sets are pretty decent as well and along with an alright lead set I think this mon warrants a rise.

Manaphy I sort of think should go to A+ simply because the RD+TG set just completely shits on stall and TG+3 attacks beats balance while it's still bulky enough to take a hit or two from offense and either get a kill or weaken something. Bulky CM sets can be a bitch to take out too since its a status tank.

Torn-T I also kind of think should go to A+. I mean yeah Hurricane misses a lot but its not even its most spammed move which is probably U-turn or Knock Off both of which are some of the most spammable moves in the game. Plus because of its awesome speed tier + ability it can just U-turn out of most of its checks to live another day and be annoying as hell. AV checks a ton of things and LO hits pretty hard with good coverage.

I'm not really sure Pidgeot should rise if Tornadus-T does. I mean granted same speed tier and Hurricane spamming but Tornadus-T offers so much more utility and is a great glue for a lot of squads. If Pidgeot were to move up I think there needs to be some other logic.

I'm sorta iffy on Gyarados since it's actually really underrated but has some obvious downsides like lack of recovery.

Clefable I don't think should rise - it's a huge threat no doubt but I don't think enough has changed to make it that much better.

Scizor (both variants, although non Mega for B+ is more compelling than Mega to S) is also fine where it is IMO.
 
sup


Mega Glalie for D -> Unlisted
OU is a tier filled to the brim with versatile threats. Let's say you need an ice-type pokemon, because you're bent on counterteaming xtra. You're probably going to want to go for the undeniably potent Kyurem-B or the formidable Mamoswine when teambuilding. Maybe even Weavile. "But wait!", the OU Viability Rankings exclaim. "Why not use Mega Glalie? It's a really good niche option!" Well, I'll tell you why. Mega Glalie absolutely pales in comparison to any other ice type in the tier, whether it comes to wallbreaking, or just not having a shitty design; and theres literally only 3 other options. What niche does this thing have? A suicide spikes lead? Why would you ever want to use your mega slot on a suicide lead? If you needed a suicide lead, it would be very helpful to your team if that suicide lead was named Azelf.
 
"Lucario: Stays in B-"

Seriously? Why is this thing still in B-? What does it even do? It's absolute trash. On paper it looks usable, having an ok Attack stat with access to Extreme Speed, but in practice, it's not a good 'mon. Its mediocre Speed makes a sweep hard to pull off. It's over-reliant on Extreme Speed against faster threats, and even at +2, many common Pokemon can take an Extreme Speed. (+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Lucario Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Keldeo: 242-285 (74.9 - 88.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO: I mean lol, I know Keldeo wouldn't be at full health, but this is a +2 Life Orb attack with decent power, it should be doing more than that.) It's extremely frail, hell it even has a hard time using its ability, Justified, since it has a hard time taking strong Dark-type attacks lol, LO Bisharp actually does like 50-60% with Knock Off, so it rarely finds opportunities to actually set up. It has no good secondary STAB outside of Iron Tail, which is bad due to extremely low accuracy btw, and Bullet Punch, which is piss-weak, even at +2. I guess the Nasty Plot set is ok, but that leaves you with Vacuum Wave as your priority, which does like no damage. Not to mention, Lucario has an extremely hard time fitting on your average team. It requires extensive team support and is no way on the same ranking as something like Ferligatr.

Please for the love of god move this thing down, it isn't good.
 
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ABR

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Community Leader
Clefable: I've thought about this for a bit and have been back and forth with this but now I'm of the mentality that Clefable should be moved to S rank. Firstly, Clefable can make great use of many different sets. Its movepool consists of Calm Mind, Wish, Twave, Heal Bell, Flamethrower, Focus Blast, Knock Off, Stored Power, and many more. It can use multiple combinations of the aforementioned moves to great success. In addition to this, it has two fantastic abilities in Magic Guard and Unaware. Magic Guard provides Clefable with the ability to absorb status and it negates hazard/weather damage, while Unaware offers amazing support that many balance/stall teams desire. To top it all off, Clefable has the Fairy typing that allows it to beat so much of the metagame. Clefable has the movepool, abilities, typing, and necessary bulk to make it a top tier (S rank) pokemon in the OverUsed metagame.
 
ScraftyIsTheBest summed up why lucario is still B- so if you want to see the post from the old thread hear ya go:

don't agree with your logic there. "It must be late in the game for Lucario to sweep effectively because it absolutely needs its checks broken down before it can set up an SD", well, right there, you basically defined what Lucario's role in OU is: it's a late-game cleaner, and you even said it yourself. It's not going to be sweeping from Turn 3, it's meant to be used in the late game when its checks have been severely weakened. When using Lucario well, the late game situation is pretty much inevitable because of Stealth Rock damage (and sometimes Spikes) that accumulates on the opponent's team over the course of the match. Yeah I know it has checks early in the game, but you need to look at this from a teambuilding perspective, not one where it will always be one-on-one. It's not like Lucario is going to even attempt to sweep early in the game, and if you're trying to go that route you're definitely doing it wrong. Now yeah it needs a free switch-in to get in, but same with any setup sweeper really.

I'd say B- is low enough for Lucario. Obviously its frailty and nature of which it is played limits it a bit, but with its late-game cleaning capabilities with E-Speed, STAB Close Combat, and a free slot for grabs to allow Lucario to nab something the rest of the team can't handle, it is definitely a capable sweeper. It's SR resistant, immune to Toxic Spikes (which has become a bit common with Dragalge and to a lesser extent Scolipede), and in general it's pretty decent at cleaning up late in the game. B- is low enough for it, it has enough of a niche and is effective enough to stay out of the C Ranks imo. It certainly doesn't deserve to be higher than B- at all, but that's a fine enough rank honestly.
I found another post by AM about why it shouldn't be in the C ranks

Alright so I'm really trying to find the legitimate logic in why people want Lucario to drop cause there hasn't been a whole lot except for pointing out flaws that don't reflect its real capabilities. The notion that it has 4MSS is an over exaggeration when it all it needs is Close Combat, Extremespeed, Swords Dance, and whatever coverage move that the team needs. So let's consider that the 3rd option doesn't make Lucario as linear as some have been making it out to be in this thread. First off it's a cleaner, it's not suppose to be setting up on M-Metagross of all things rofl, like come on people. Checked by M-Diancie? Last time I remembered it doesn't like taking a Bullet Punch to the face on Lucarios' double priority variant so this is a shaky as hell checking you're talking about. Then you got the other coverage options that turns some of these defensive switch ins to liabilities anyways. Yeah so M-Sableye and M-Bro annoy it a bit, it's not like the 5 partners in the back aren't there to support it >_>. You guys need to look at this from a team player perspective, not one where it's a 1v1 in every single scenario. Its job is to clean first against weakened teams and after SD unless your resist is healthy, and when using Lucario effectively this isn't going to be the case, it's going to clean and it's going to do so pretty damn easily when you take into account the rocks and prior damage that is inevitable due to the nature of where Lucario resides on in HO. Lucarios not facing as much competition or is a liability to teams as it is being made out to be. A cleaner that's both SR resistant, Tspikes resistant, with access to 2 physical forms of priority with one bypassing the speed factor of dangerous threats like Talonflame, amongst coverage options to choose from is definitely not something I want to see in the C ranks.
 

Celticpride

Are you ready for the sequel?
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Fun fact, this is the first thread AM has posted in the OU subforum. How does one become a moderator with what I'm assuming is 1500+ posts in OU without posting a single thread? I have no idea.

Speaking to Mega Gyarados, it is limited to an extent in what it can do and has no real way of BSing past checks like Ferro and Keldeo, but it does have just great synergy with a ton of other big threats in OU. Great defensive core breaker / stall breaker, that can abuse great bulk and decent +1 speed to still have an impact against offense. Fits it the category of threats that have common checks but still offer more than enough positives to outweigh the downsides. The only thing probably holding this back from A+ is it gives an easy entrance opportunity to Mega Altaria, and you really don't want to be doing that now.

The only thing I don't like about that Mega Ampharos argument is there's a lot of assumptions about free turns. "After a NastyPass and Agility" or "after two Agilities", how many free turns are you realistically giving this thing that other threats wouldn't benefit from just as much? Mold Breaker helps I guess until you realize that NastyPass receivers like Char-Y, Landorus and Gard just overpower those Unaware threats as well. I frankly don't like the defensive sets because RestTalk in general isn't great, especially outside of a mono-boosting setting ala CroCune (aka larger accumulated bulk).

I don't really know about Chansey. Stall has gotten less prominent and it is easy to take advantage of, but it also protects you from a pretty large number of threats off the bat just by being there. The top special attackers more or less have ways of getting around or through Chansey, but I feel like that's why they are also the top special attackers if that makes sense (not really an argument against a drop just a thought).

Edit: Oh and we need a new banner to reflect ORAS.
If someone is doing this would said artist also mind making me a "No Mega" variation? That would be cool.
 
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Empress

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As I looked through the D ranks, there's something else that needs to go besides Mega Glalie.

D -> Unranked

Cloyster is bad. Plain and simple. Such a horrendous defensive typing means super effective physical hits can still put a chunk of damage into it, meaning it literally cannot set up without entry hazards off the field. After being brought down to its Focus Sash, it has no priority, (oops I forgot it had Ice Shard; not like it has room for it though) meaning it's easy to revenge kill with literally any mon that carries a priority attack. Let's not forget that Steel-types wall it almost completely and that an uninvested Hydro Pump won't be doing a heck of a lot even at +2. Its only niche that I can see is its ability to get past the Sturdy and Focus Sashes of foes, but I'd rather just use Mega Heracross against the vast majority of them. Yes, Cloyster is (supposed to be) a cleaner while M-Hera is a wallbreaker, but Cloyster can't even clean and fulfill the niche that it's supposed to. Lemme put this in perspective:

252 Atk Cloyster Icicle Spear (5 hits) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Azelf: 225-270 (77.3 - 92.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Sturdy and Sash stopper my ass. Get this POS off the viabilty rankings, please.
 
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Manaphy should remain A Rank: Manaphy is, in a nutshell, a very matchup reliant pokemon, which is why it shouldn't move any higher than A Rank until some changes are done to the tier so Manaphy can actually covers more teams than he currently does. As you all know, Manaphy is one of the best win conditions against Balanced teams or even bulky offense, but for other kind of teams, Manaphy will probably struggle to get its boosts or to sweep, as something will most likely revenge kill it.

Mega Houndoom should also remain B- Rank: On one hand, Mega Sableye is a less prominent threat than before, reducing its effectiveness? But on the other hand, Mega Houndoom feels very underrated to me. It is surely far from unwallable, and even HP Fighting won't save him from being heavily pressured by any Ttar or Heatran, both being very common. It also fears any kind of priority except Sucker Punch ( Shadow Sneak doesn't exist in OU ) But reminder that Mega Houndoom's speed tier is great. 115 Speed allows him to outspeed a lot of pokemons. Also, its bulk shouldn't be overlooked. While 75/90/90 is not awesome, it lets M-Doom leave some hits if it misses fire blast on specific targets/fails to OHKO something.
 

Clone

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Bout time chomp rose to A+ =]

Anyways since you said in your post, AM, that there's not really anything specific that you want to move up/down, I thought that I'd bring up moving Ferrothorn to A+. By now everyone knows what it does, so I won't make a long post on how it walls non Superpower Azu or that non HP Fire Latis can't break it. Instead I want to ask you, as well as the general public, is ferrothorns prominence in the meta justified by only an A ranking? To me, A rank mons are mons that are really good but either don't influence the meta significantly, or have one flaw that prevents them from being meta defining. To me, at least, neither one of those really applies to Ferrothorn. It's a staple on balance teams and literally every competent team needs a way to handle it. Otherwise, it'll just wall you to death and sap away your health with leech seed and stack spikes in your face. I realize most teams have at least one way of dealing with Ferrothorn (by having a fire / fighting type), but even with the prominence of mons like Heatran, Zard X/Y, Keldeo, etc, I find that ferro has no issues with thriving in the metagame. It also has spikes, which have seen a Surge in usage lately because hazard removal is quite constrained. So that in tandem with checking / countering a good portion of the metagame seems like the qualities of an A+ mon to me. I guess the argument of being set up bait for some things or not having (reliable) recovery could be what's holdin it back, but are those really enough to keep it from A+? I bring this up Now because I've noticed that ferro is consistently in the top ten for usage on the ladder and it's always seemed like a cut above from the rest of the A ranks (bar torn and Manaphy but I agree with those rising).
 

Mur

If you're not first you're last
Nice 'n clean new thread :]

Mega Houndoom stay in B-: While i love Mdoom personally I don't think it is at the caliber of some of the other B rank mons. Having your stabs walled by scarf tar, Mdiancie, Malt, keldeo, and azu to name a few all hurt the viability of Mdoom since in order to get past them houndoom needs to drop taunt for wow or sludge bomb which hurts Mdoom's ability to slap fatter teams which is the whole purpose of using it in the first place. While it does have some positives such as the beloved 115 speed tier and the ability to threaten most stall and fatter balance builds which definitely make it worthy of B- along with Mchomp and medi in my eyes but no higher. It still has a great niche of harassing slower builds and checking some notable threats but the rise in common checks and counters to Mdoom and the decreasing usage of Msab make an unpleasant meta shift for doom therefore it should stay in B-.

Torn-T rise to A+:
I'm sure we all saw this one coming. Being one of the few reliable switchins to lando-i(bar rock slide) is a great feat alone which is why torn seems to have become very splashable on these bulky offensive/balance teams that otherwise get steamrolled by lando. The utility provided by torn also contributes to how easy it is to throw on teams. Knock off support, u-turn for momentum, a powerful stab hurricane(confusion is p nice too;] ) an amazing base 121 speed tier, and great all around coverage let torn-t provide valuable utility for it's team and is a nice check for a lot of common mons in the meta(keldeo,latis,lando-i,gengar etc) Torn-t is an all around great mon and is definitely on par with other A+ mons with how easily it fits on teams and how it provides utility for it's team. Like seriously I've seen this thing do work in tour play for awhile now Torn-t's rise to A+ has long been overdue.

Manaphy rise to A+: because style used it Yeah probably the biggest threat to balance and stall bar lando and possibly gengar on a good day should probably get a rise. The matchups this thing can get with the tg+3atks set is asinine and imo contributes a lot to the matchup problems in the tier especially for balance(ban manaphy??). I think we all know how terrifying manaphy is for balance and slower teams but how it fares against offense is the key reason on why it should rise. Contrary to popular belief manaphy is not dead weight against offense since it's straight base 100 defenses allow it to stomach a hit and retaliate back with a move of your choosing thus performing its role as a breaker. While admittedly offense still troubles manaphy it is by no means dead weight in an offensive matchup and imo should not keep it down a rank especially with the impact it has against these slower teams that really have to prepare for it. I have not even mentioned the other sets it can run like tg+rd, CM rd rest, and wacan berry lure sets which all can potentially catch someone off guard and begin an onslaught on the opposition. Also another offensive water type that is not a mega or keldeo is also very appreciated in a tier where being a water type gets you so far. So raise manaphy to A+ because it can still fend for itself against offense and is an absolute terror for balance/bulkier teams that should always be a priority to cover in teambuilding.
 
It is a brand new day boys! V3 is here and with it many new interesting inspections. Out of all these inspections one truly catches my eye.
This one is Mega Houndoom. Megadoom is a massive powerhouse who's niche may not be as small as the OU community originally thought. While true that its power under sun is extremely potent, focusing too much on this aspect only is a massive constraint to teambuilding, as the Megadoom user will fight too hard to put a sun user on his team. While it is true that Megadoom is inferior to Megazard Y in terms of raw, unboosted damage, Megadoom beats it out for a better offensive typing, better utility, and a potentially better movepool (I stress that this is debatable, as Megazard Y's coverge is a basically perfect movepool for an all-out attacker). A Nasty Plot boosted Megadoom is an extremely potent threat, being able to do massive damage to most Pokes while burning the rest. Of course his primary weakness is Mega Altaria, but that can be dealt with given proper team support.
The fact that I mentioned team support immediately throws up a red flag for some, and rightfully so. I believe that Megadoom's great typing and movepool combined with powerful usage of Nasty Plot warrant his rise to B in my eyes. For now I believe anything above B is too high, as the needed team support and turn for set up greatly hinders this exceptional Pokemon.
 
Mantine to D, or even C-

Man if only this thing got roost...sigh.

As is, Mantine is actually a pretty darn good special wall, with a good typing and great ability. However, its mediocre physical defense, not-great HP stat, and complete lack of recovery outside of Leftoevers/Rest mean it's not built for most teams.

Still, it counters any non-Rock Slide Lando-I and any non-HP Electric Keldeo. Even CM Keldeo loses since Mantine gets Haze, giving it the rare distinction of one of the few Keldeo counters/switch ins that doesn't have to fear the Scald burns (which often wears down Ferro, Gyara, etc.).

Mantine can also check Charizard-Y pretty well (assuming you're running Toxic), and Manaphy/Suicune also weep since their boosts can easily be Haze'd away after you come in on a Scald for a 25% HP gain.

Life Orb Gengar even loses to your immense special bulk, although you can get worn down pretty quickly.

In addition to Defog (which you will use if you're running Mantine), Mantine also gets access to nifty moves like Tailwind and Mirror Coat, which can be pretty useful albeit niche.
 
Chansey should drop. As AM said, stall is not as prominent as it once was, and Chansey works best on stall, but even then, Chansey is still a major liability to its complete passivity and vulnerability to all forms of passive damage. While it is the "ultimate" special wall and can be a pain for even some physical attackers to get past, it is one of the easiest Pokemon to get around and take advantage of. All of these disadvantages describe a Pokemon that does not belong in B+ in a metagame where Chansey's redeeming traits are thrown under the towel, so a drop is completely precedented for it.
 

DarkNostalgia

Fading in, fading out, on the edge of paradise
is a Contributor Alumnus
Chansey down to B
Pretty self-explanatory this is. Chansey really only fits on stall archetypes, and stall really isn't the greatest, when you account for the multiple hard-hitters in the tier such as Mega Metagross and Landorus, the rise in stallbreakers such as SD Gliscor and Manaphy, Chansey really isn't as viable as it once was. I mean, it has crazy special defense, but with Knock Off running around, and most special attackers actually beat it, depending on the set, such as Landorus, Thundurus and Gengar. Chansey is passive as hell as well, and loads of stuff with Taunt/Substitute just beat it straight on. It should drop imo.
 
Some may be to move up or down others might just be general thought process.

I think Clefable can be a bit overloaded sometimes practically although I can acknowledge it's one of the best A+ ranked mons we have for the fact of fitting on so many archetypes and doing relatively well. I think offensive steels are still a problem but most of these kind of screwed over by a support variant or coverage move, this also includes stuff like Talonflame who lose to Thunderbolt and Gliscors who lose to Ice Beam. I think being the easiest fairy in the tier to implement, a type that is considered one of the best to the point teams are designed to accommodate the Fairy type, is really something that speaks volumes in regards to Clefable considering that there are real possibilities that a Calm Mind variant can get out of control.

Just gonna post this here for when ben and I were talking about stuff we should be reviewing since the context is there.
ben gay: http://pastebin.com/Zy7nUr3x
AM: yeah it was just giving you an idea what peopl are thinking
AM: ben what is this implying? I'm jw so I don't just assume something
ben gay: its implying
ben gay: gyara is adaptable to the meta and it isn't just a great stallbeaker but also being able to hold its own against balanced and bulk offense which rock phatchomp and altaria as their premier checks
AM: if I'm gonna be perfectly honest with you
ben gay: it dropped down cuz stall dropped down and its 'niche' wasn't rly good anymore
AM: m-gyara is one of the most threatening megas if not the most threatening one in its rank right now regardless if people realize that or not lol
AM: I've come to learn that
ben gay: im not against it in A+
AM: the hard way
AM: well
AM: it's mostly the fact that people are riding on its 2 attack / subddance set
AM: when
AM: 3 attacks gives it a way to break past a conventional check or two
AM: and although these options aren't very high in usage it's only cause people fail to realize they're there and can be used effectively
AM: like ice fang, stone edge, iron head
AM: or stab, eq
AM: I'm not opposed to it rising but I guess I sort of see where people are coming from in it staying
AM: in A at least
ben gay: put on next slate then
AM: alright
To sort of elaborate on this I think Sub DDance sets being the standard is what makes your typical M-Gyarados build easy as hell to check and then when you take into account something like 3 attacks / DDance your game plan can just get thrown away in an instant simply cause it was packing that one move to either lure a traditional check or just take out your game plan to M-Gyarados, such as Spikes support + EQ M-Gyarados to remove Keldeo out of the picture. Whether or not it should be A+ is a different story but I think coverage options is an aspect that is overlooked a ton when taking into account M-Gyarados and is one of those things that can sort of get out of control.

Its slightly less than stellar matchup against offense is pretty valid but I do agree with the sentiment that it alone can just destroy balanced builds with a variety of coverage options and if it's the Rain Dance variant you're probably gonna be closing your window if trying to use Stall since Unaware Clef has to run some SpDef investment and be CM to beat it while not being worn down by a potential burn and moonlight PP + hazards, factoring in dancing around which coverage it has. I think it's one of the better water types in the tier if not one of the best but bias aside this has been up for debate for probably a good month or more now with ranking team and the philosophical ideas from each person has been pretty different regarding manaphy.

This thing is kind of stupid to prep for tbh because most of them need to be fat as hell walls or extremely strong priority users. I've never thought the idea of Hurricane missing is exactly a fair assessment in what it should hold it back from being at a certain rank. Regenerator, offensive capabilities with a speed tier giving it an edge against base 120s and below, defensive set to provide a pivot into dangerous attackers like Gengar and a variety of coverage options I believe gives it that edge to push it to A+ in my eyes.

When Blissey discussion was taking place there's one thing I knew for sure in that the gap in ranking between Blissey and Chansey needs to be closer. So with that said I knew that Blissey needed to rise but somewhere in the B was really high to reflect Blisseys capabilities and some of the comparisons the two have with each other sort of correlated to my thought process on Chansey. Chansey however in the effort to close that gap between the two I think should drop at this point. Chansey is a center point of an archetype that I feel has lost a considerable amount of viability in regards to how the playstyle and defensive cores associated with Chansey have to contend with handling so many things at once. Chansey has always been a momentum killer so to speak which was fine during a time where B+ was a more reasonable placement but stall builds that aren't able to maintain momentum in this day and age are enormous liabilities and implementing a Chansey on one is asking for a handful of matchup issues with the understanding that you will lose momentum by using it which can be counter productive for an aspect of stall reliant on its Eviolite and removal of hazards on a consistent basis.

I'll post more on other stuff later since this post might end up being an essay lol. Long story short, Cloyster should probably stay D cause offensive Ice types poop on a lot of the tier with minimal support but still thinking about an unrank, Zygarde maybe for D after I compare and contrast but most definitely not unranked which I'll explain if necesary, M-Glalie the same reason as Cloyster but just being a mega, Ferrothorn idk about A+ seems like a usage thing masking its viability but not a very strong opinion other than the fact it can be an overloaded Pokemon at times. Whimsi is better than the majority of C- ranked mons so a raise for that perhaps and maybe Ditto for D simply cause it's a super specific asset.
 
Basically I think what's keeping Tornadus out of A+ is hurricane's shaky accuracy. However, I really don't think that this is even that big of a problem. The chance of hurricane missing is basically balanced out by the chance of it confusing and the confusion can actually be pretty clutch. It's just super hard to kill thanks to regenerator and u-turn and being one of the best offensive checks to landorus-i in this meta is definitely something pretty big. Most of it's common answers just get worn down super fast by hazards + hurricane + u-turn to the point that they can't even reliably switch in anymore and some other fat walls like chansey are just crippled by knock off and taken out by superpower if weakened.

Torn-T is a really nice pivot and has decent offensive presence with a bunch of cool coverage options such as heat wave to hit fat steels, iron tail to lure in mega diancie and icy wind for bulky grounds and the 4x ice weak mons everywhere in the tier. The argument of Hurricane being unreliable isn't exactly fair considering that it also has a chance to confuse which is really nice which pretty much balances out the chance of it missing.

edit: also pretty funny how during the update no mons dropped a single rank
 
To those saying Hurricanes accuracy is an issue, take a look at matches where Tornadus is in, the majority of the time its more optimal for it to use one of its coverage options rather than having to rely on Hurricane to do work, its other coverage options are usually the moves itd go for for mons like TTar, Tran, Blobs etc. The only time I could really see it need to rely on Hurricane hitting is against something like Clefable, which realistically isnt something Torn would normally stay in on anyway. Im not giving any judgement on Tornadus-Ts ranking I just feel that keeping Tornadus from moving up just because the move it rarely needs to rely on is inaccurate is just dumb.
 
AYY ROFL CHOMP FINALLY ROSE, GOOD WORK. Now I don't have to spam you anymore. Anyway:

Mega Gyarados -> A+

Jesus this thing is just a monster. I'll quote post #2, "versatility lets it adapt better than most in A." This reminds me of the case with Garchomp, so versatile that it can simply adapt to the meta and still stay strong. I feel like I will be repeating what AM's post above says if I were to elaborate on why it can adapt so well, so I'll just give my 2 cents on why it's worthy of A+.

Mega Gyarados is a Pokemon who will never be deadweight. With its great bulk, power, typing and movepool, it thrives against any archtype. While it may not be so fast, it still does fantastically against offense thanks to its great bulk, allowing it to set up a DD reliably, not to mention the wonderful Intimidate pre-mega, which makes it that much easier. Against balance, or bulkier teams like stall, its access to Substitute or Taunt which can really screw over your opponent. Mold Breaker allows it to Taunt the omnipresent Mega Sableye who is commonly found on stall teams, or it can simply set up on its face with Sub provided Sableye does not have Foul Play. Its STABs however are what makes it gauranteed to punch a hole in any team. Now that is has Crunch, it has a way to get past Slowbro (mega), and at +1 OHKO bulky Psychics that resist Water like Celebi. Crunch is basically why fatter teams have a harder time stopping it from punching a hole in their team now when it sets up a DD. Even things like Ferrothorn can be 2HKOd by a +1 Adamant Crunch. The mind games with its typing pre and after mega are another pain, pretty centralising to the point where it's a reason Keldeo runs HP Electric. Again, depending on the Pokemon its up against, it can set up DDs easier as it has access to two different type combinations.

However, in my opinion the scariest thing about Mega Gyara is when its paired with Healing Wish Latias, who is not a bad partner at all considering they have nice typing synergy. Since it is gauranteed to punch a hole in any team, 2 rounds of it are a great win condition. Against offense for example, typically you'll find a Thundurus there who handles Dragon Dancers with its priority T-Wave. With Healing Wish, you can set up, force in the Thundy, take the para, proceed to OHKO it and switch back out for a HWish. Now that Thundy is gone, you simply find another opportunity to set up and win, since their check to Gyara is now gone.

The same would apply against balance or stall builds. Ferrothorn, a decent check is still weakened very much by a +1 Crunch. Though it would usually come out on top, since you have HWish in the back you can weaken Ferro and set up another DD later, and go on to win the game now that Ferro has been weakened. I feel like Gyarados was always worthy of A+, but with ORAS it saw little usage due to new toys etc and people generally forgot about what a threat it was, which is why it was abandoned at A rank. This can however also work to Gyara's favour, as for this reason it's not uncommon to find teams weak to Gyara (at least from my experience testing on the ladder). Mega Altaria's presence is a hindrance yes, but it still has the option of Ice Fang to lure such a big threat, not to mention that it also lets it beat the increasingly popular Tankchomp. Iron Head is another option too for CTs.

Replays testing a Gyara team I made:

How HWish + SubGyara dismantles fatter teams: http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-225336166

This replay shows how Sub Gyara can destroy Mega Sableye, as well as showcase HWish can be so effective when its check are weakened which is not hard to do with a previous round of DD destruction (weakened his Skarm beforehand).

Mega Gyara against offense: http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-225339309

A rather haxy match but shows how easy of a time it can have setting up on common mons like Choice-locked Keldeo and Landorus at -1 (Intimidate). Again HWish comes through.

(On a ladder alt) http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-225572800

Against dual weather - sand and sun. Opponent has numerous checks to Gyara but it still puts in huge work, showcasing its great bulk with Intimidate.


"Reserved for Pokemon that are fantastic in the OU metagame, and can sweep, support, or wall significant portions of the metagame. These Pokemon require less support than most others to be used effectively and have few flaws that can easily be compensated for when compared to their positive traits. These Pokemon exert a strong presence in the metagame."

Mega Gyara fits all the things highlighted (imo). And yes, as said it can adapt better than those others in A, which is why it suits to be above them, as it can compensate for problems that a different meta may cause it.
 
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ScraftyIsTheBest

Get ready for the new me!
is a Top Contributor Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnus
"Lucario: Stays in B-"

Seriously? Why is this thing still in B-? What does it even do? It's absolute trash. On paper it looks usable, having an ok Attack stat with access to Extreme Speed, but in practice, it's a terrible 'mon. Its mediocre Speed makes a sweep hard to pull off. It's over-reliant on Extreme Speed against faster threats, and even at +2, many common Pokemon can take an Extreme Speed. (+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Lucario Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Keldeo: 242-285 (74.9 - 88.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO: I mean lol, I know Keldeo wouldn't be at full health, but this is a +2 Life Orb attack with decent power, it should be doing more than that.) It's extremely frail, hell it even has a hard time using its ability, Justified, since it has a hard time taking strong Dark-type attacks lol, LO Bisharp actually does like 50-60% with Knock Off, so it rarely finds opportunities to actually set up. It has no good secondary STAB outside of Iron Tail, which is bad btw, and Bullet Punch, which is piss-weak, even at +2. I guess the Nasty Plot set is ok, but that leaves you with Vacuum Wave as your priority, which does like no damage. Not to mention, Lucario has an extremely hard time fitting on your average team. It requires extensive team support and is no way on the same ranking as something like Ferligatr.

Please for the love of god move this thing down, it isn't good.
A lot of this seems like a big exaggeration. I get that it's kind of mediocre and its use is limited outside of Hyper Offense builds, but calling it "absolute trash" and "terrible" seem to severely undermine what Lucario can do. The Keldeo calc doesn't reflect how Lucario should be used, given it's primarily a late-game cleaner that is meant to sweep teams after they have sustained a lot of damage from hazards and attacks. You also seem to think that Extreme Speed should be an extremely powerful move, well I mean of course it wouldn't OHKO a full health Keldeo: i mean, it's an 80 BP attack without STAB and off of 110 Attack, on a Pokemon that actually has passable bulk. I don't really know why you would try to keep a Bisharp in on a Lucario, let alone try to switch Lucario in, you should be trying to force Bisharp out by coming in on it after a kill or something then force it out. Lucario aims to set up on a forced switch, much like any setup sweeper. Justified is not something you need to be using, it's just a little perk for whenever Lucario does end up taking the odd Knock Off or something. As for saying it has no good secondary STAB, well, Bullet Punch is primarily a priority attack and its use is to revenge kill ScarfTar and Terrakion after a boost, both of which could otherwise take it on. Lucario never ran its Steel STAB back in DP or BW except for Bullet Punch if you needed to use it. Iron Tail isn't that terrible, and is okay if you want Lucario to crush Togekiss, Sylveon, and has a decent amount of power behind its back too. Its job is to sweep late in the game, which it does so pretty decently after you weaken its counters, because a boosted Extreme Speed, heck, even unboosted, can do work against a weakened team very well. Its biggest perk is that aside from being priority to be able to revenge kill weakened threats late in the game, is that it allows Lucario to bypass two common sweep stoppers, Talonflame and Thundurus, outpacing their own priority. Lucario can also use a +2 Close Combat to muscle through some defensive threats too such as Ferrothorn, Chansey, and even Skarmory, so it's not shabby against stall either.

And the Nasty Plot set is garbage. Don't try using that thing. Ever.

I mean it obviously is frail and has a bit of trouble setting up, and is taken on by a few common threats in this meta such as Mega Meta, which is why it's only in B- and nothing higher. Maybe it could go to C+ since it does admittedly need a specific team composition to get its job done, but the point is that you are being unfair to Lucario and this post is really undermining what it can do.

I can definitely see why Lucario could drop or stay, it's admittedly at most a B- mon but it could be C+ if really, but not lower. But please don't treat it like it's Ambipom or Metang or something among those lines, it may be somewhat mediocre but it's better than what you pass it off for.
 
I don't have much experience facing or using a few of the members of the slate, but there are a few that I feel like I should pitch-in about.



Clefable is a pokemon that many have pushed for S Rank through late XY and ORAS, and a nomination that many opposed. Its a pokemon that has almost everything a pokemon could wish for, great typing, great abilities, good movepool, but it lacks in stats. While its stats are more than compensated for, it does leave it rather passive without Calm Mind or a Life Orb. People have said that the prevelance of Mega Metagross hurts it, but its not quite as common, only on 9% of teams. Landorus-I carrying Sludge Wave definitely hurts it, but quite a few S Rank threats get checked by other prominent threats. Keldeo is checked by Mega Metagross and has a pretty wide pool of pokemon that resist its STABs, Mega Altaria gets mashed by Mega Metagross too before setting up, although it does suffer less from it. However, Clefable has enough tools at its disposal to push me over to the side of A -> S. I'm a bit uncertain about this, but I have used Clefable a good amount (What kind of non-HO player hasn't?), and I can say that it fits into the definition of S Rank pretty well.

Reserved for Pokemon that are the pinnacle of the OU metagame. These Pokemon are able to perform a variety of roles very effectively, or can just do one extremely well. Their use has low risk involved and high reward exerted. Pokemon in this rank have very few flaws that are patched up by numerous positive traits. These Pokemon define the metagame.

Clefable can perform a variety of roles, whether it be setting up rocks, spreading paralysis, being a cleric, and being a win-condition. In addition, Clefable checks and counters numerous pokemon. From DD MAltaria, Latis, to Weavile, etc. it won't be sitting back in the party doing nothing until its time to set-up. I also believe that using Clefable does not garner much risk. It's hard to go wrong with a fairy typing, unless there's apparently a Fairy / Ice 'mon in the future or something. While it does get checked by a few things, it checks and counters far more. It can be used as set-up fodder, but it can use quite a few pokemon as set-up fodder as well.



Mega Gyarados is a pokemon that I used extensively in mid-XY, and used it a little in ORAS while facing it reasonably often. I believe that it's one of the most solid win-conditions around, and surprisingly versatile for what seems to be a rather black and white pokemon. Yes, it cannot reliably break through its checks and counters, such as Azumarill MAltaria, Breloom, Chesnaught, and Keldeo, but at the same time, it has many positive traits as well which I believe makes it deserve A+. Intimidate is not necessarily the best ability you could have for setting up, but it's pretty close. Gyarados also gains weaknesses, loses weaknesses, and changes resistances upon Mega Evolving, which can be used in your favor for mindgames. Mold Breaker is a pretty good ability for Mega Gyarados too, and while maybe Sheer Force or such would be better, it allows for it to beat Rotom-W and Unaware Clefable, two pokemon that would otherwise be big issues for it, with other little gems like ignoring Multiscale and Magic Bounce (Although the latter doesn't really matter for MDos). After Mega Evolving, it possesses great 95 / 109 / 130 bulk, which for comparison is a huge amount of physical bulk after mega evolving on something that you just Intimidated, and more special bulk than Latias as well. Admittedly, 155 base attack and 81 base speed isn't as formidable as other things around after a Dragon Dance, but its more than enough to make use of.



Banded Scizor is a set that I have also extensively used in XY, but I've used it more than MDos here in ORAS. Scizor definitely deserves B+, with its positive traits, as well as fairies being more common then ever. I don't have much time left for writing this, but I'll just pitch-in. VoltTurn itself is a strategy that requires minimal prediction and Scizor practically personifies the 'Turn' side perfectly. With a STAB, 130 base attack boosted by a Choice Band, Scizor has the hardest hitting relevant U-turn in OU (Outdamages Jolly MBee by 0.3-0.6%). This is further bolstered by Scizor's ability to force many switches, whether it be almost any fairy, non HP-Fire Latis, Celebi, etc. Heatran cannot reliably absorb its U-turns either, as it gets OHKO'd by Superpower. Bullet Punch is one of Scizor's main selling points as well, which helps provide powerful priority that any offensive team appreciates. Knock Off is a general safety net move, but I'm not particularly fond of it since clicking U-turn is often better than using Knock Off, and Pursuit brings trapping potential to the table. Scizor also has other sets, whether it be a bulky defog set that doesn't take up your mega slot and can gain momentum similarly while being able to pivot into Mega Metagross, but I haven't used it much so I'll leave it at that.
 
As I looked through the D ranks, there's something else that needs to go besides Mega Glalie.

D -> Unranked

Cloyster is bad. Plain and simple. Such a horrendous defensive typing means super effective physical hits can still put a chunk of damage into it, meaning it literally cannot set up without entry hazards off the field. After being brought down to its Focus Sash, it has no priority, meaning it's easy to revenge kill with literally any mon that carries a priority attack. Let's not forget that Steel-types wall it almost completely and that an uninvested Hydro Pump won't be doing a heck of a lot even at +2. Its only niche that I can see is its ability to get past the Sturdy and Focus Sashes of foes, but I'd rather just use Mega Heracross against the vast majority of them. Yes, Cloyster is (supposed to be) a cleaner while M-Hera is a wallbreaker, but Cloyster can't even clean and fulfill the niche that it's supposed to. Lemme put this in perspective:

252 Atk Cloyster Icicle Spear (5 hits) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Azelf: 225-270 (77.3 - 92.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Sturdy and Sash stopper my ass. Get this POS off the viabilty rankings, please.
I do support cloyster being unranked considering it gets walked by every steal type, which most teams should always have, it does get ice shard for priority, which does not leave it as prone to revenge killing unless it's something that resists it. Not arguing for it to stay, just pointing it out.
 
As I looked through the D ranks, there's something else that needs to go besides Mega Glalie.

D -> Unranked

Cloyster is bad. Plain and simple. Such a horrendous defensive typing means super effective physical hits can still put a chunk of damage into it, meaning it literally cannot set up without entry hazards off the field. After being brought down to its Focus Sash, it has no priority, meaning it's easy to revenge kill with literally any mon that carries a priority attack. Let's not forget that Steel-types wall it almost completely and that an uninvested Hydro Pump won't be doing a heck of a lot even at +2. Its only niche that I can see is its ability to get past the Sturdy and Focus Sashes of foes, but I'd rather just use Mega Heracross against the vast majority of them. Yes, Cloyster is (supposed to be) a cleaner while M-Hera is a wallbreaker, but Cloyster can't even clean and fulfill the niche that it's supposed to. Lemme put this in perspective:

252 Atk Cloyster Icicle Spear (5 hits) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Azelf: 225-270 (77.3 - 92.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Sturdy and Sash stopper my ass. Get this POS off the viabilty rankings, please.
Cloyster is a lategame sweeper, not a lead. That's like saying Lucario sucks because it can't OHKO any lead, which is utter bullshit. It's supposed to run LO and sweep late game so your calculation with a FS against Azelf isn't meaningful. Water/Ice is a potent offensive STAB combination and defensively it has important resistances to Aqua Jet and Ice Shard, and its huge physical bulk means even neutral priority moves will barely dent it (and not even Mach Punch from the likes of Conkeldurr is a guaranteed OHKO even if it's weak to).
As the best Shell Smasher in the game, Cloyster needs to remain listed.

sup


Mega Glalie for D -> Unlisted
OU is a tier filled to the brim with versatile threats. Let's say you need an ice-type pokemon, because you're bent on counterteaming xtra. You're probably going to want to go for the undeniably potent Kyurem-B or the formidable Mamoswine when teambuilding. Maybe even Weavile. "But wait!", the OU Viability Rankings exclaim. "Why not use Mega Glalie? It's a really good niche option!" Well, I'll tell you why. Mega Glalie absolutely pales in comparison to any other ice type in the tier, whether it comes to wallbreaking, or just not having a shitty design; and theres literally only 3 other options. What niche does this thing have? A suicide spikes lead? Why would you ever want to use your mega slot on a suicide lead? If you needed a suicide lead, it would be very helpful to your team if that suicide lead was named Azelf.
This was brought up a few days ago and it was agreed that Mega Glalie deserves to be listed as well. The "X role isn't worthy of a mega slot" argument is awful and shouldn't be brought up, ever. Mega Glalie is a wallbreaker, momentum grabber (via Explosion) revenge killer and potential Spikes setter all rolled into one, a unique role that no other pokemon fulfills. HO teams in particular appreciate the offensive support M-Glalie provides. There are plenty of great non-mega sweepers out there, so if your team is designed around one of them there is no reason not to consider Mega Glalie for a teamslot.

Both Cloyster and Mega Glalie should reamain listed in D rank.
 
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