Resource ORAS OU Viability Ranking Thread V3 - Read Post 3451 Page 139

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[...]tldr: Why is Politoed a rank above rain sweepers?[...]
Because it provides automatic rain to enhance the strenght of the other Swift Swim users doubling their speed and boosting the Water-STAB; alone is decent thanks to its boosted Hydro Pump under the rain and some utility moves without being Stealth Rock weak ===> Politoed is a rank above the rain's abusers because they work at their best only during the weather provided by this frog.
 
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SketchUp

Don't let your memes be dreams
Want to focus on the A- and B+ rank only for this post:

I don't think anything should be dropped from A to A-. While there could be made a case for Gliscor or Mew, they are both huge threats to defensive cores (not only stall but heatran / ferro / chomp stuff too) with both Taunt sets and SD sets (for Gliscor) Mew is really solid in A for me because it is also amazing against offensive teams, being able to check pokemon like MMedicham, MMetagross and non Specs Keldeo and with great options to support the team with Defog, Taunt, Heal Bell, Baton Pass etc. Gliscor is a bit less worthy of A, but I don't see a reason to drop it because it's really hard to take down without a strong ice or water move and it doesn't give too many free switchins to other pokemon because it has access to Taunt, U-Turn, Toxic and Knock Off.

Alakazam was nominated to drop but the pressure it can put on balanced teams with a LO 3 Attacks + Taunt / Encore set is huge. kek123 The special walls you mentioned in Clefable and Skarmory are both not the best switchins for Alakazam because they are both forced to Roost / Soft-Boiled when hit by Psychic / Focus Blast, so they will just be Encore bait. It's not easy to pursuit trap because Tyranitar gets outsped and ohko'd by focus blast even with a scarf so 70% of the time that means r.i.p. tyranitar. Bisharp is in a 50/50 anyway and when you face Sub Alakazam things are even getting more complicated. Krookodile is also OHKOd by Focus Blast and with a scarf a OHKO is not even guaranteed if Alakazam decides to stay in. The only Pursuit trappers that are left are Mega Aerodactyl, Weavile and Scizor and I think it's pretty obvious that they have some huge flaws when they click Pursuit or even when they have it on their set in the first place (less coverage for weav / aero, choice locked for scizor)

Celebi was nominated to B+ a few times but apparently the council doesn't agree with it so I won't start this discussion again. Just want to know what the thoughts are on Celebi atm.

Jirachi has been nominated to go A a few weeks ago and I can only agree with this. It's one of the best switchins to pokemon like Gardevoir, Latios, Clefable, Alakazam.. without being worn down extremely quickly because it has access to Wish. Steel types are extremely good rn and SpD Jirachi has the cool niche in not being trapped by Scarf Magnezone (even without Protect you lose a max of 1,3% if you spam Iron Head + Wish so you only lose if you get really unlucky with getting paralyzed + getting fully paralyzed a few times in a row)

I don't know why Serperior isn't in A at the moment. The usage of counters / hard checks like tran and torn-t hurts, but it can both cripple or lure them in and even if it just uses the standard HP Fire Miracle Seed / LO set, it is still an amazing offensive check to offensive water types and many passive pokemon like hippowdon and ferrothorn. The unpredictability in its moves bar the obvious Leaf Storm with moves like Taunt, Glare, HP Rock and Sub, make it really hard for pretty much every team to check.

Latias to A- sounds okay. Outside of the extra bulk which barely comes to play, it only has a niche in Healing Wish over Latios. Since Starmie is now in A- (and I don't think Latias is better than Starmie in this metagame) I think Latias should join Starmie and go A- too.

Dragalge should drop too (B+ > B) Bludz made a good post about this so instead of posting the same arguments in a slightly different structure I'll just link the pots here

I also think Victini should go from B+ to B. Yeah it can lure in pokemon like Hippowdon, Heatran and Garchomp really well, it still requires a lot of team support. I'll use Garchomp as my prime example here because the tank set only gets around 20-25% usage. First of all, Victini can't just spam V-Create, because it both loses 28% of its health and Garchomp gets up rocks freely. Rapid Spin and Defog exists but most hazards removers have terrible defensive synergy with Victini. Psychic types like Starmie and Latias stack up 3 weaknesses and make the Pursuit weakness even bigger (and I think the Pursuit weakness is a really big argument in the case of Victini because of its lower base speed and V-Create drops) While Alakazam avoids being trapped by Tyranitar and Bisharp to an extent, Victini is trapped by both of them. Even without scarf, Tyranitar will be able to trap Victini after a V-Create drop so that's even worse. About Garchomp, even when you make a prediction and lure it in with Icy Wind, you only do around 55% max to 76 SpD Tankchomps and you are still pressured a lot later in the game because even a banded V-Create fails to KO a Garchomp after it took a Icy Wind before. Other counters / hard checks like Suicune, Bulky Zard X and Scarftar are also way more common than at the point where it was moved to B+. I think B is fitting more than B+ looking at the flaws I described.

Stay: Alakazam, Gliscor
Drop: Victini, Dragalge, Latias
Go Up: Jirachi, Serperior
 
kek123

I don't quite understand your logic in Alakazam dropping when it's based on the circumstances that they're always at full health based off of unrealistic calcs, and also the realization that its sash and LO sets function on an entirely different level. So instead of dropping calcs that are skewed in the favor of your argument let's bring up some practical scenarios.

AM vs WCAR

Alakazams luxury in being able to hold a Focus Sash with its immunity to hazards and residual damage on Turn 18 and Turn 19 allow me to remove Tyranitar out of the picture, one of the main issues my Starmie was going to have to contend with if I was going to remove hazards for Zard-X, who needed to stick around for Clefable late game. The sash is lost now but on Turn 38 due to Alakazams utility in Magic Guard it was able to come back in and pressure Mega Venusaur out into WCARs Skarmory. This allowed me to put Skarmory into kill range for Tyranitar, thus removing WCARs spikes out of the picture. Disregarding the late game scenario where it was based on a roll and was equal footing on both our ends, the point is that Alakazam did everything I needed it to do to provide myself a better chance in breaking down his build. That's a lot of pressure and utility alone for something thats "lost its magic touch" as you put it.

I mean I can pull up more replays but this one I thought was a pretty good one as to why Alakazam has most certainly not gotten less effective and it's funny that it's the set that people consider the worst one (I don't really think so, sets amazing on hazard stacking and makes all those calcs irrelevant, I'd argue it's a much better set in this meta).

The idea of pursuit trapping necessitates that you get it in safely and I think it's safe to assume any effective Alakazam build whether it's mega or not is going to have hazard supports behind it, and big surprise every single viable pursuit trapper is a grounded target, they're all prone to spikes. Alakazam is perfectly fine where it's at.
 
I also think Victini should go from B+ to B. Yeah it can lure in pokemon like Hippowdon, Heatran and Garchomp really well, it still requires a lot of team support. I'll use Garchomp as my prime example here because the tank set only gets around 20-25% usage. First of all, Victini can't just spam V-Create, because it both loses 28% of its health and Garchomp gets up rocks freely. Rapid Spin and Defog exists but most hazards removers have terrible defensive synergy with Victini. Psychic types like Starmie and Latias stack up 3 weaknesses and make the Pursuit weakness even bigger (and I think the Pursuit weakness is a really big argument in the case of Victini because of its lower base speed and V-Create drops) While Alakazam avoids being trapped by Tyranitar and Bisharp to an extent, Victini is trapped by both of them. Even without scarf, Tyranitar will be able to trap Victini after a V-Create drop so that's even worse. About Garchomp, even when you make a prediction and lure it in with Icy Wind, you only do around 55% max to 76 SpD Tankchomps and you are still pressured a lot later in the game because even a banded V-Create fails to KO a Garchomp after it took a Icy Wind before. Other counters / hard checks like Suicune, Bulky Zard X and Scarftar are also way more common than at the point where it was moved to B+. I think B is fitting more than B+ looking at the flaws I described.
You didn't talk about other sets. I use Victini sometimes and when I see Garchomp dying because of Glaciate max SpA Expert Belt, I feel good. When you see Victini coming you don't know its set. Tyranitar is killed by CB Brick Break / crippled by WoW and in the worst scenario, it can just U-Turn out on the switch. If the team of your opponent doesn't have Garchomp, your best bet is often to U-Turn out on the switch. Also all B+ needs more team support. Victini is a hard-hitter, have a way to destroy its counters and is very unpredictable. I think it should remain in B+.
 
Gonna restate my stance on Staraptor:

Tl;dr: Staraptor has a hard time switching in and staying in. If that weren't enough, there's the huge issue with survivability what with the recoil, SR weakness, and the popularity of TankChomp. And then there's the fact that Raptor is just slow enough to get forced out by a lot of offensive Pokemon in the tier. Hell, checks to Staraptor, namely Klefki, Skarmory, Mega Diancie, and Mega Metagross are still common and popular enough to keep Raptor at bay, so Raptor's raw effectiveness can still be put into question. Staraptor is pretty much worse than CB Talon which is seeing less and less usage as it is (for good reason), and even then Talon at least can swat aside the Steels that check or counter Raptor. On Flying spam, there are still a whole host of other Flying-types one could consider using, and even Honchkrow has more tool to adapt in this meta than Staraptor does. Staraptor needs to drop.
The problem with this logic is that even though it can die to things easily, it can at least 1v1 them. The banded set takes out chomp but dies in return. Not a bad trade as usually the team archetype that staraptor fits into is a volt turn core and chomp is probably the best stop to them in the game. The scarf set is also worth mentioning because it again has the ability to claim a kill even if it does not match up well against the opposing team by using final gambit. With the meta's shift to offence, it can be very dangerous to teams. Lead with your mega metagross and think your safe, final gambit says otherwise and now you are down a mega for a supposed C+ mon.

Tldr
Staraptor has insane wall breaking potential and has the ability to AT LEAST claim one kill durring the match allowing it to help out the team archetype in performing its role or open the door for other sweepers to clean late game.
 
Why would I want to run something that dies in the process? If I want that why wouldn't I run something that has the potential to beat several threats, or provide a certain set of support?
 

thesecondbest

Just Kidding I'm First
Why would I want to run something that dies in the process? If I want that why wouldn't I run something that has the potential to beat several threats, or provide a certain set of support?
If chomp is considered a counter but staraptor actually takes it out that's really impressive. The bird just has so much raw power and it's faster than genesect was, so calling it slow seems pretty strange. It's a good fit only on volt-turn and bird spam teams, and it has a niche over talonflame. So why is it so much lower than talon? CB talon is B+ in the sets VR and Staraptor is barely worse. So put it in B.
tl;dr getting a 1 for 1 on demand is quite impressive and raptor ought to be higher
 
secondbest CB Talonflame is team specific because its effectiveness is outshined for more splashable sets in SpDef and SD variants. Staraptors role requires that you provide it more team support to even get its role going so it's ironic that it's suppose to supplement a team when you need to provide so much to supplement it already. No Staraptor should not be higher than C+.
 

Martin

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I think that Staraptor is in the perfect place tbh. Birdspam isn't what it used to be, and that is literally the only archetype it is good on tbch due to the archetype's inherent weakness to electrics and its ability to KO them on the switch; this is all reflected well in its current placement. CB Talon is kinda bad atm, and really the two can't be compared beyond their typing as CB Talon is a RKer while CB Staraptor is a wallbreaker. It is stupendously powerful, but its choice of item means that it either has to miss out on a really important speed benchmark (losing to thundy-t and everything faster is not exactly a desirable trait) or become stupendously abusable as soon as it uses an attack (for example, electrics use it to give their team momentum if it is locked into Brave Bird due to the somewhat low power of scarf Staraptor). The fact that it impales itself on RockyChomp isn't exactly ideal either, and it means that it just loses to Endure variants. I think that both the limited number of teams it can fit on and its need for tremendous support to function (both Duggy support and a hazard remover are almost mandatory support for it to function effectively) is reflected well by its current placement, and I'd definitely put it above stuff like Goodra and Absol, but can't safely say its on the level of something like Tyrantrum either as the latter is both more consistent and more splashable.
 

Punchshroom

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If I really wanted a wall breaking Flying-type, I would still consider Honchkrow before Staraptor since it has more staying power with Moxie + STAB Sucker Punch and boasts more efficient wall breaking prowess; Heat Wave nails Klefki and Skarm (as well as Ferrothorn without making contact), while Icy Wind 2HKOes TankChomp without murdering itself and even punish pivot switching (essentially functioning like Victini's Glaciate).

Staraptor meanwhile is a one-trick pony in a role that isn't even particularly favorable in the current meta and is too inflexible to work around it. It's kind of why Victini >>>> Darmanitan in a small sense.
 
Mega absol C -> C-

I feel like mega absol should move down becuase it is out classed by pretty much all the other dark types because of it very bad defenses/hp it basicly get one shot by about half the meta and with its normal forms speed i really hard to get of a mega also the magic bounce abillty really dosnt help it as pretty much all the rocks use in tier can one shot it e.g garchomp , lando , tyranitar ,diance it does help with Wilo-o-wisp but why wilo-when most wall cant one shot it any way. Also mega absol barely ever got the chanse becuase of the running theme of getting one shot by pretty much half the tier yes it could set on the switch but since it cant carry LO like many othere SD use like bisharp it sruggles to kill wall in one shot with an SD (+2) and since its verry bad defenses it get one shot by foul play at +2. +2 0- Atk Mega Sableye Foul Play vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Absol: 261-307 (96.3 - 113.2%) -- 75% chance to OHKO (dont think i think saybleyes it a counter but it the first thing i could think of the learns foul play)

Over all Mega absol feels out classed and weak
 
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Why would I want to run something that dies in the process? If I want that why wouldn't I run something that has the potential to beat several threats, or provide a certain set of support?
Not saying that staraptor can only kill one mon, but the tools that it has allows it to kill at least one mon every game if played somewhat decently.

If I really wanted a wall breaking Flying-type, I would still consider Honchkrow before Staraptor since it has more staying power with Moxie + STAB Sucker Punch and boasts more efficient wall breaking prowess; Heat Wave nails Klefki and Skarm (as well as Ferrothorn without making contact), while Icy Wind 2HKOes TankChomp without murdering itself and even punish pivot switching (essentially functioning like Victini's Glaciate).
That is very true and crow definitely has a niche as a mixed wall breaker but it is still weak to rocks, is SUPER frail, and has to rely on sucker punch a lot to make up for its slow base 71 speed (and sucker punch as we all know is not the most reliable move in the game). In staraptor's case, has immediate power and can run a scarf set effectively which crow lacks. They are kinda too different to compare tho as they do different things, much the same as you can't compare talon to raptor because most talons are setup sweepers/stall breakers with a lot of investment in bulk where as staraptor is always choice user.
 
I've been messing around with Blissey and I've had success with Shed Shell. Pairing it with a pursuit trapper such as Scarf/BandTar on stall and semistall prevents Gothitelle and Wobbuffet from ruining your day, which is huge considering both what they can do to stall and semistall and the fact that the blobs naturally lure both of the aforementioned trappers. Also, I've seen people talk about a Calm Mind set that acts as a stallbreaker on stall teams, similarly to Crocune, which exchanges STAB Scald and physical bulk for significantly better special bulk, reliable recovery and room for coverage (I'd assume any two of the elemental beams and/or Shadow Ball). While I've not tried the CM set yet (although it is certainly very enticing) and cannot get an accurate gauge on its effectiveness without doing so (the CM talk from me is all based on what I've heard from people atm), it has a genuine niche over Chansey before consideration of CM in that it can escape from Goth and enable your team to remove it (although this alone probably shouldn't put it above D).
Wobbuffet doesn't do much to stall, it performs better against offensive teams where it can punish bad plays, trap weakened Pokemon, or remove any particular threat to your team. Don't get me mistaken: stall doesn't particularly enjoy facing Wobbuffet, but Wobbuffet has a more difficult time against stall than offense.
 

p2

Banned deucer.
Regular Metagross to B-

av mgross is a really nice mon right now and offers decent role compression in checking latis + psychics + fairies + a bunch of other shit for offense or even balance teams. it faces a lot of competition from rachi here but has access to pursuit and generally more bulk after the av boost, clear body is also cool, its pretty niche but stops stuff like lando-t or manec trying to soften your attacks. it does have some pretty bad 4mss in that it wants coverage because its horribly pressed for it as mash/pursuit/bp are pretty much 100% needed on av and if you pick something else you're losing eq. also, fat shits like garchomp, hippo and scizor are running around right now but support to help against them isnt exactly the hardest thing in the world to find (av gross is awesome paired with keldeo because they have such great synergy). it's a lot better than most stuff in c+ and a little bump up to b- wouldnt hurt because its a solid mon right now despite the strong competition it currently faces from rachi and klefki
 

Martin

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Wobbuffet doesn't do much to stall, it performs better against offensive teams where it can punish bad plays, trap weakened Pokemon, or remove any particular threat to your team. Don't get me mistaken: stall doesn't particularly enjoy facing Wobbuffet, but Wobbuffet has a more difficult time against stall than offense.
I don't deny that. I made a point of mentioning it due to the fact it can Encore most of the archetype and turn it into setup fodder for something like Azumarill, ZardX or, hell, NP Hoopa(-C or -U) - all of which take good advantage of certain moves or Safeguard's protection (Encore-->Safeguard-->switch still leaves one more turn for Encore, forcing stuff out for completely free setup (i.e. no status to worry about on setup turn). Fast Tickle variants are also hugely effective at dealing with bulky 'mons like Ferrothorn and it allows it Wobbuffet to work as a better partner for frailer setup sweepers like SD Weavile that can take advantage of the completely nullified attack and defense stats to use the victim as complete and utter setup bait (if they stay in, you proceed to boost up again; if they switch, you still have a +2 Knock Off and Icicle Crash at your disposal).

So that this post isn't completely pointless, I'll comment on Honch. I personally am completely for this thing moving up. The meta is surprisingly kind to it; it is really versatile due to its good movepool, and it is capable of both luring and beating most of its common switch-ins with random coverage it has in its movepool. Dark is particularly potent ATM, and STAB Sucker Punch means it has an easy time beating certain otherwise troublesome 'mons in a 1v1 situation, and it can even trap the things it forces out with STAB Pursuit if it absolutely wants to. If I compare it to Staraptor like Punchshroom has, it sacrifices the ability to OHKO electric-type switch-ins for better cleaning ability, not impaling itself on Ferrothorn/Garchomp and being able to combat steels without relying on Duggy support. I personally think C+ is a perfect reflection of its ability in the meta; I could see Staraptor drop to C (although it'd be right at the very top of said rank) as it is very team-specific, but I can't see it any lower than that.
 
I'd like to nom Mega Swampert B+ -> B

This thing is pretty bad, honestly, and I disagree that it's on the same threat level as Kingdra. Not getting Swift Swim on the turn it megas is atrocious and it doesn't really offer enough to offset that. Its bulk is wasted by having to take a hit before it can do anything unless your opponent lets you get a free mega evolution with Manectric or something. Its power is also pretty disappointing. Like, here's how well it does against the pokemon that rain teams are going to struggle with relative to other secondary rain sweepers (Kingdra is pretty much mandatory for rain teams imo)
252+ Atk Mega Swampert Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 240+ Def Mega Venusaur: 126-148 (34.6 - 40.6%)
252+ SpA Life Orb Seismitoad Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Mega Venusaur: 134-160 (36.8 - 43.9%)
252+ Atk Life Orb Kabutops Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 240+ Def Mega Venusaur: 134-160 (36.8 - 43.9%)

252+ Atk Mega Swampert Superpower vs. 252 HP / 88+ Def Ferrothorn: 214-254 (60.7 - 72.1%) (Mega Swampert is then likely too weak to continue the sweep)
252+ SpA Life Orb Seismitoad Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 168 SpD Ferrothorn: 213-252 (60.5 - 71.5%)
252+ Atk Life Orb Kabutops Low Kick (100 BP) vs. 252 HP / 88+ Def Ferrothorn: 192-229 (54.5 - 65%)

252+ Atk Mega Swampert Earthquake vs. 172 HP / 0 Def Azumarill: 240-283 (62.5 - 73.6%)
252+ SpA Life Orb Seismitoad Sludge Wave vs. 172 HP / 0 SpD Azumarill: 268-317 (69.7 - 82.5%)
252+ Atk Life Orb Kabutops Stone Edge vs. 172 HP / 0 Def Azumarill: 257-304 (66.9 - 79.1%)

252+ Atk Mega Swampert Superpower vs. 248 HP / 212+ Def Rotom-W: 113-134 (37.2 - 44.2%)
252+ SpA Life Orb Seismitoad Hydro Pump vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Rotom-W in Rain: 136-161 (44.8 - 53.1%)
252+ Atk Life Orb Kabutops Stone Edge vs. 248 HP / 212+ Def Rotom-W: 153-181 (50.4 - 59.7%)

Seismitoad offers the same vaunted thunder wave immunity while also having relatively the same power level, and the only other reason to use Swampert is its ability to tank priority really well. But as I've said that's really difficult to take advantage of in practice unless you can mega evolve at full health and also one-shot something / force it to switch, and Kabutops has that juicy defense stat to accomplish the same thing to an extent anyway. That could possibly be fine, but you're also using your mega slot which you could otherwise be using on a pokemon that actually solves the problems that plague rain teams. Mega Heracross was a popular choice in XY to stall break, Mega Scizor is a good choice to set up on Venusaur / Azumarill / Ferrothorn, etc.
 
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Punchshroom

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That is very true and crow definitely has a niche as a mixed wall breaker but it is still weak to rocks, is SUPER frail, and has to rely on sucker punch a lot to make up for its slow base 71 speed (and sucker punch as we all know is not the most reliable move in the game). In staraptor's case, has immediate power and can run a scarf set effectively which crow lacks. They are kinda too different to compare tho as they do different things, much the same as you can't compare talon to raptor because most talons are setup sweepers/stall breakers with a lot of investment in bulk where as staraptor is always choice user.
I avoided making comparisons to other setup sweeping Flying attackers such as non-CB Talonflame, Mega Pinsir, and Hawlucha (the latter two especially doe to their similar coverage) as they perform distinctly different roles from Staraptor. However, as immediate / holepunching Flying-type attackers, Honchkrow is definitely comparable to Staraptor (Raptor may have more immediate power but that is not to say Honch is weak :/). Raptor's stronger Flying STAB does not actually help much in this meta, as it relies far too much on its recoil-inducing attacks to make a more lasting impact (you may end up squandering your health to break something other than your intended target, which is kind of how TankChomp operates) than most other Flying-type attackers, including Honchkrow, which doesn't have to resort to Brave Bird nearly as much, giving it better longevity to break teams more efficiently.

I don't even consider Scarf Raptor to be worthwhile over Band Raptor, because now you're trading your wallbreaking power to definitely be an inferior Talonflame, essentially throwing away Staraptor's only niche.
 
I avoided making comparisons to other setup sweeping Flying attackers such as non-CB Talonflame, Mega Pinsir, and Hawlucha (the latter two especially doe to their similar coverage) as they perform distinctly different roles from Staraptor. However, as immediate / holepunching Flying-type attackers, Honchkrow is definitely comparable to Staraptor (Raptor may have more immediate power but that is not to say Honch is weak :/). Raptor's stronger Flying STAB does not actually help much in this meta, as it relies far too much on its recoil-inducing attacks to make a more lasting impact (you may end up squandering your health to break something other than your intended target, which is kind of how TankChomp operates) than most other Flying-type attackers, including Honchkrow, which doesn't have to resort to Brave Bird nearly as much, giving it better longevity to break teams more efficiently.

I don't even consider Scarf Raptor to be worthwhile over Band Raptor, because now you're trading your wallbreaking power to definitely be an inferior Talonflame, essentially throwing away Staraptor's only niche.
Thats fair enough but you really can't say that raptor reliance on BB is a bad thing as it has high damage output and when crow relies on SP as a crutch for its low speed. Also its not fair to say that scarf raptor is inferior than talonflame in all ways. Its not four times weak to rocks, can deal with electrics, can deal with tar, tran, and has access to the best 1 for 1 move in the game, final gambit assuming that you don't match up well against the opponents team (basically guarantees a kill if at full). If anything, the scarf set is its best set right now although when I have used it in the past I generally use band. Basically now with all the discussion, I can see raptor staying (because staraptor tears balance teams to pieces but offense/stall are the most prevalent play-styles right now) but not moving down (because it can still threaten these play styles with scarf and band respectively). As for crow, I can't see it moving up to because it struggles with offense more than raptor. When balance becomes more popular again I could see it moving up to C+ tho as it, like raptor, loves going against it.
 
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Srn

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I avoided making comparisons to other setup sweeping Flying attackers such as non-CB Talonflame, Mega Pinsir, and Hawlucha (the latter two especially doe to their similar coverage) as they perform distinctly different roles from Staraptor. However, as immediate / holepunching Flying-type attackers, Honchkrow is definitely comparable to Staraptor (Raptor may have more immediate power but that is not to say Honch is weak :/). Raptor's stronger Flying STAB does not actually help much in this meta, as it relies far too much on its recoil-inducing attacks to make a more lasting impact (you may end up squandering your health to break something other than your intended target, which is kind of how TankChomp operates) than most other Flying-type attackers, including Honchkrow, which doesn't have to resort to Brave Bird nearly as much, giving it better longevity to break teams more efficiently.

I don't even consider Scarf Raptor to be worthwhile over Band Raptor, because now you're trading your wallbreaking power to definitely be an inferior Talonflame, essentially throwing away Staraptor's only niche.
I wouldn't so readily sell scarf raptor off as an inferior talonflame:
252+ Atk Reckless Staraptor Double-Edge vs. 248 HP / 176+ Def Zapdos: 210-247 (54.8 - 64.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Reckless Staraptor Double-Edge vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Rotom-W: 168-198 (55.4 - 65.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

those are two mons that mega pinsir, hawlucha, talonflame, and honchkrow are not going to be getting past very easily (if at all) but raptor doesn't even need a CB to break through these otherwise very sturdy bird checks. The normal STAB is what differentiates raptor from other birds (final gambit is cool too) and its enough to keep it C+. A bird not stopped by electrics is handy.
 
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Punchshroom

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I wouldn't so readily sell scarf raptor off as an inferior talonflame:
252+ Atk Reckless Staraptor Double-Edge vs. 248 HP / 176+ Def Zapdos: 210-247 (54.8 - 64.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Reckless Staraptor Double-Edge vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Rotom-W: 168-198 (55.4 - 65.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

those are two mons that mega pinsir, hawlucha, talonflame, and honchkrow are not going to be getting past very easily (if at all) but raptor doesn't even need a CB to break through these otherwise very sturdy bird checks. The normal STAB is what differentiates raptor from other birds (final gambit is cool too) and its enough to keep it C+. A bird not stopped by electrics is handy.
Sure Raptor can punch though defensive Electrics, but the other birds can do pretty well for themselves already: SD Talonflame can beat Raikou with boosted Flare Blitz and even outpace Thundurus with +2 Brave Bird (which KOes after SR). People who rely on Rotom-W as their Flying check may have to worry more about getting swept by Close Combat Mega Pinsir or Hawlucha. And then Honchkrow breaks most Staraptor checks and counters either more effectively or at all. Pretty much the only true niche Staraptor has over the other birds is its ability to threaten Zapdos, which is something, but I wouldn't oversell it.
 
scarf seems good on paper until you use it and realize you need hazards off the field for to be effective. unlike other u-turn scarf users, staraptor has no way to threaten chomp outside of final gambit which defeats the purpose of using it. if you want me to give respect to staraptor, go band. pair it with a magnezone to remove skarm then proceed to get 2-3 more kills on your opponent's stall. lead band raptor against balance and nuke shit. it is ez to use and ez to nuke. scarf involves too many mind games and there are too many conditions that limits its effectiveness. its a c rank 'mom at best. no reason to use it outside of bird cores.
 

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People who rely on Rotom-W as their Flying check may have to worry more about getting swept by Close Combat Mega Pinsir or Hawlucha.
How far do you expect people to go to check birds... +2 CC or +2 hjk don't come too close to OHKO'ing either
+2 252 Atk Mega Pinsir Close Combat vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Rotom-W: 204-241 (67.3 - 79.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
+2 252 Atk Hawlucha High Jump Kick vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Rotom-W: 229-271 (75.5 - 89.4%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
Double-edge does so much cleaner.

Besides, its way more effective than shuckle and m-bannette provided the support it needs; it's fine where it is in C+
 
I personally feel like there's a couple of incorrect statements here. "Even scizor fears the possible HP fire" Bulky Mega Scizor can switch in (while living on 10% or so), and with 132 Attack EVs and a neutral nature its Bullet Punch OHKOes 0 HP / 24 Def Mega Garde without rocks. With rocks, it doesn't need any investment whatsoever. While it is true that there are very few neutral switch-ins to Hyper Voice, its Defense and weakness to priority (more specifically, Talonflame, Scizor, and Bisharp's priority) keep it out of A+. Not to mention the onset of Scarf Hoopa-U which obliterates it with Gunk Shot (which it should be carrying imotbh) and has a decent chance to OHKO with H-fury. And no, it doesn't dent "literally any mon in OU" because with good predictions it can be counterplayed. "Its sheer damage rectifies its speed." I'm sorry, if something outspeeds and OHKoes you, your "sheer damage" doesn't matter. Its below average speed and garbage physical bulk keep it out of A+, IMHO.
You rely on counter and good plays too much, and I can use the same argument to play it right
You are presenting Garde to be Garbage. And a special wallbreaker shouldn't need too much physical bulk anyway, its breaking walls.
Scarf hoopa-u is not nearly as good as people think it is, every well-versed player knows this. Nothing personal but I think you are incorrect

Sure Raptor can punch though defensive Electrics, but the other birds can do pretty well for themselves already: SD Talonflame can beat Raikou with boosted Flare Blitz and even outpace Thundurus with +2 Brave Bird (which KOes after SR). People who rely on Rotom-W as their Flying check may have to worry more about getting swept by Close Combat Mega Pinsir or Hawlucha. And then Honchkrow breaks most Staraptor checks and counters either more effectively or at all. Pretty much the only true niche Staraptor has over the other birds is its ability to threaten Zapdos, which is something, but I wouldn't oversell it.
What??? You are actually counting Hawlucha LMAO

Anyway, to get to the more serious reason I am reposting.......
Honckrow is very nice at times, but is more frail than staraptor? Sucker punch is far from reliable but in instances is fairly easy to play with unless you are stuck in a clear 50/50 situation. Staraptor very heavily dents electrics and virtually no electric outside of magnezone can switch into the BB/DE combo, ad mag fears the CC anyway. Staraptor is cleary better unless chemistry wise honch is a better fit. In the end staraptor is a very underrated threat that I think deserves to rise
 
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ok gonna be a weird nom but whatever.
-> B (from B-)

Alright before i go on let me first define the set I will discuss.

Gastrodon @ Leftovers
Ability: Storm Drain
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Relaxed Nature
- Scald
- Recover
- Curse
- Earthquake


Yea I know it looks funky but its good i swear :[. This thing can set up on a surprising amount of mons. Things like energy ball-less Manaphy, water locked Azumarill, Keldeo (which is why it's max defense), Bisharp, Excadrill (Adamant Life Orb EQ does 60% max, so yes, it can set up), Talonflame, Defensive Landorus T, Offensive Starmie, Thundurus, and the list goes on. Curse provides a more defensive niche for Gastrodon, but also with the huge huge huge upside of giving Gastro a surprisingly effective offensive presence. It can set up alongside the likes of SD Talonflame, DD Gyarados (Mega of course), even Charizard X, and eventually come out. This is the defensive niche I'm referring to. It is not set up fodder (aside from things like CM Lati, which of course is an issue, but why are you using Gastro to beat that in the first place?), and in fact uses some of the tier's most fearsome offensive threats as set up fodder. Now the grass types of the tier are an issue, but Venusaur isn't the most common mega at the moment, and things like Celebi and Serperior are quite easy to handle with the other five slots of your team.

I'm not saying that Gastro is amazing. It's not. However, when I look at the viability ranks, I feel that Gastrodon is very anti-meta and above many of the B- Rank mons it currently resides with. Tentacruel, Infernape, Mandibuzz, Toxicroak, even Sylveon are all things that I feel have less of a place in this currently offensive meta than Gastrodon. They all get left behind in the dust. However, Gastrodon can use this to turn the tides of a battle in its favor, and as such, Gastrodon should rise to B Rank where pokemon like Tangrowth, Zapdos, Regular Scizor, Empoleon call home, all of which are relatively comparable in viability to Gastrodon imo.

Also this thing won in wcop finals... Don't doubt it. Replays:

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-ou-80123 - PDC v. Reiku from WCOP. Gastro is able to set up on a more defensively oriented Clefable and proceed to take out the Clefable as well as a Volcarona.

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-272943435
- One of my own from a OU Room Tour finals. Gastro is able to set up on a offensive Starmie and proceed to late game sweep with ease.

Also, since I know what thread I'm in, let me say this first:

Please for the love of god don't say that Gastro sucks without using the mon. This thread is horribly prone to assumptions on viability (seriously, air slash does nothing for shaymin yet we had that giant discussion about it). Yes, that means know what you're talking about before you open your mouth. I would hope that I didnt have to say this and that people already knew this, but I do. That also means don't praise it if you are inexperienced with it. This thread is also one stricken with excessive bandwagoning. Please dont do that :[

Calcs:
252+ Atk Tough Claws Mega Charizard X Dragon Claw vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Gastrodon: 174-205 (40.8 - 48.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 Atk Mold Breaker Mega Gyarados Crunch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Gastrodon: 136-162 (31.9 - 38%) -- 0.5% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

252+ Atk Life Orb Excadrill Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Gastrodon: 220-259 (51.6 - 60.7%) -- 92.6% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery (You can curse on it)

252 SpA Choice Specs Keldeo Secret Sword vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Gastrodon: 190-225 (44.6 - 52.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 Atk Sharp Beak Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Gastrodon: 157-186 (36.8 - 43.6%) -- 99.4% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

252+ Atk Life Orb Bisharp Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Gastrodon: 200-238 (46.9 - 55.8%) -- 19.9% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery (You can curse easily or just Recover up and EQ without having to set up a defense boost as Knock Off's power will dip.)


this one is for you ging :]
 
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