Resource ORAS OU Viability Ranking Thread V4

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Hey guys, I'm currently making an effort to improve my presence on Smogon.

My opinion is that Tornadus-Therian should stay right where it is, in A+ Rank. It's one of the metagame's premier pivots, and it has a diverse offensive and a usable utility movepool. It can run a somewhat defensively-oriented set, or an all-out attacker set, and more, and the brilliant combination of it's movepool, typing, ability and statistics make it a great check for many dangerous threats in OU, like Keldeo, Serperior, Scizor-Mega, Gengar, and Latios.
However, it's Flying Typing is kinda bad defensively which unfortunately gets it many strong hits on it, while it does allow it to check many threats.
It's Special Attack could stand to be better, so in many scenarios it finds itself needing to use a LO to deal considerable damage. Almost all of its sets do not address it's relatively low defense, so many physical attackers will not have a hard time OHKOing and 2HKOing it. It has a fantastic ability, Regenerator, that unfortunately is moderately hindered by it's weakness to Stealth Rock. Many of it's moves are subject to missing at the worst possible times, also.

I can't really see it ascending to S Rank, but I also cannot see it dropping either, at least not now. I think that A+ is the perfect rank for it in my opinion.
That is just a general overview, however, i have to agree.

Torn-T has a nice position right now, since all the stuff it checks is quite common, Serp has risen, Loom has risen, all this is enjoyed by Big Burd, not to mention it already blanket checks relevant A+ stuff like Keldeo, Mega Zam or even Manaphy who is S rank, but, it is reliant on the AV to actually check those, and Torn is piss-weak without a LO, and too frail without AV.

Is kinda similar to Raikou in the fact it just blanket checks a lot of relevant threats.

Overall I think is one of the weakest A+ mons, but it is able to hold its place because of the utility it provides and the relevant stuff it checks.

Keep Burd in A+.
 

AM

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Unless I end up building a team with Competitive Gothitelle with hazards and cream bludz a couple of times with Vertex being like "whoa this shit is broken" like he does with everything he KOs a mon with, it's safe to assume Gothitelle and Wobb are useless. I went ahead and removed them.
 

WhiteQueen

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I would like to nominate Serperior for A+ simply because of this set:

Fuck Stall Serperior
Timid Nature @ Leftovers
252 Sp.Attk / 236 Spe / 20 Def
--
Leaf Storm
Hidden Power Fire
Taunt
Synthesis

Do I need to write 9 paragraphs and post some replays to justify my nomination?

AM Edit: I like reading 9 paragraphs from you believe it or not.
 
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SJCrew

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I haven't tried Taunt yet, but I like Knock Off. You can stay in on Latios and deny it the KO from full while it Dracos. Even if it Psyshocks, you can Synthesis on that. Knocking off Chansey's Eviolite makes it easier for non-Serp members to pressure and limits Heatran/Ferro switch-ins. Also makes Torn-T a little less annoying, whether you remove its LO or Assault Vest. Give it a whirl.
 
My thoughts on some of the nominations that I'm particularly opinionated about:

Azumarill to S
I am in agreement here 100%. Choice Band is definitely its best set right now and there are about three things that can reliably switch in. It's a fucking monster. As others have said, when played correctly, it's pretty much guaranteed at least one kill per game, especially against offensive teams. AJ also boasts really nice power and coverage, so it cleans teams incredibly well. Tbh. without one of its three or so counters, your opp will have to play very carefully around a CB Azu. BD Azu is also quite threatening, especially against balance teams that try to get by running something slow as their Azu check. It does have some issues in setting up versus offense, but if it does, its likely going to blow some major holes in the team. AV Azu is probably the least useful set, but it still can be a nice check to some things like Zam and rain. All three of Azu's sets suffer from low speed, but its bulk and typing is so phenomenal that it really doesn't hurt it too much. Its typing gives a ton of useful resistances and amazing STABs, while its bulk gives it enough staying power to do what it needs to do. Its relative unpredictability is a rather nice boon as well. Definitely worthy of S-rank imo.

Keldeo to S

Keldeo is quite good right now, but I don't really think it deserves S rank. It's so widely used that every team will pack at least one or two checks, and checks are not really all that hard to come by - Latis, Torn, Slowbro, Slowking, Electrics, Alt, Amoong, Venu, etc. It's speed tier also leaves quite a bit to be desired because it really struggles to pull its weight against offensive teams. The scarf set can remedy this, but we all know scarf keld is piss weak. Specs is still the best set as it limits switchins, but it is painfully easy to take down in a late game scenario. RestTalk Keld is kinda cool given its extra longevity, but relying on Sleep Talk leaves you vulnerable. LO Taunt is cool, but the power drop from Specs to Orb is very significant. CM Keld is kinda ass as it doesn't really get all that many chances to set up anymore. However, I think perhaps the most important thing to keep in mind here is the competition that Keldeo gets as an offensive water type from Manaphy and Azumarill, who are both arguably better right now. Keep Keldeo A+.

Torn-T to S

I love this thing almost as much bludz, but I think S is overselling it. It's an amazing mon with all of the utility that Knock Off + U-Turn provide, but AV is still weak as piss and LO can't switch into anything. Having to rely on Hurricane to hit is also a huge factor working against it, especially for the LO set. As such, even with the utility it can provide, I don't think it will ever warrant S rank - just because of the degree of uncertainty Hurri adds to the mix. It's probably one of the better A+ mons, but it should stay A+.

M-Gardevoir to A+

Yeah, I can't see this one either. It's got amazing power and just about all it needs in terms of movepool, but the one thing it lacks above all else is speed. Base 80 speed before mega without a safe way of ensuring you mega evolve really sucks, especially because it's only handling weaker special attacks well. Even when mega evolved, its finds itself in a very crowded speed tier with a bunch of stuff it doesn't want to face down - Jirachi, Zards, Medicham - not to mention the loads of threatening stuff that sits above base 100. It's physical bulk is shit too, which means priority threatens it out almost every time. So, yeah, I'd leave M-Garde in A.

Cobalion to B-
Cobalion is cute and all in that beats darks really well and can set up SR and even Vswitch, but there is just far too much in the tier that takes advantage of it. I think C+ is fitting alongside the few other niche SR setters sharing the rank - Azelf, Seismitoad, and Rhyperior. Keep it C+.


 
Ok some quick thoughts on current noms, then onto the bombshell.

Torn-t is an amazing mon that is a horrible pain to deal with due to its good ability and amazing move pool and power, but I dont think its quite good enough for S rank. It just seems to be nuisance to most teams, not an outright problem, if that makes sense.

Keldeo/azumarill: Water is an amazing offensive type and they both have good offensive second types to boot, these are truly meta defining pokemon, and by that I mean if your team is weak to one of them, you have a real issue on your hands. Every team should be preparing for these mons and I think that makes them worthy of S.

Anyway on to the main show. Mega pinsir----->A+

I used mega pinsir exclusively to get reqs for this last suspect test and went 44-3 on the ladder, easily topping it at #1. That is no testament to my skill, as I am awful(ask around). The games I played were incredibly easy because pinsir has so few switchins and is so strong that +2 quick attack is enough to OHKO mons like latios after stealth rock, which is just insane. It also has the advantage of not caring at all about unaware mons because they have no chance of stopping him, and definitely cant switchin. I mean any team that is defensive or even balance really just doesnt have the tools to handle pinsir, even skarmory takes like 60% from +2 CC and then it most likely will whirlwind pinsir out and since pinsir is on heavy offensive teams skarm will not be able to recover the damage off and next time pinsir comes in he just wins. I unfortunately dont have too many replays since people didnt save them against me, because they didnt want to live through it again. So give me your thoughts.
 
Okay, I feel like I need to comment on this. I am firmly against Azumarril, Keldeo, or Torn-T going into S rank. Azumarril is just too damn slow, crippled by burn, and destroyed by any Pokemon with a grass, poison, or electric type moves. Granted, it's an effective stop to megazard x and many other dangerous Pokemon, which is why it's A+ rank. But it's lack of use against Offensive teams (I find it to be particularly lackluster against spikes stacking teams) and the fact that you need to be a prediction wizard to get the most out of the CB set keep it from being S rank.

Keldeo it probably the Pokemon out of these three that I would like to put in S rank the least. It's counters are numerous, and it's checks are even more so. Azumarril, torn-T, Slowbro/king, Starmie (kinda) Gyarados (provided it doesn't have HP elec) and Mega Altaria. Checks like talonflame and mega Diance on HO make its life to hard, and the scarf set is a borderline joke against a competent stall team.

Torn-T is definitely a useful Pokemon, but the AV set lacks the juice to be extremely threatening against bulkier builds, and the life orb set is a constant dice roll every time it uses its most powerful move. I don't hate Torn-T, and while I'm the least opposed to this one going up to S, there's just nothing particularly remarkable about its abilities. HO has answers like Mega Manectric, Mega Diance, and Weavile, while stall has Hippo, which can cut the accuracy of hurricane, and CM clef, which it can be bait for.

I'm not trying to diss these mons too much, because they are all excellent Pokemon in their own right. They just aren't quite as dominant as S rank mons.
 
Okay, I feel like I need to comment on this. I am firmly against Azumarril, Keldeo, or Torn-T going into S rank. Azumarril is just too damn slow, crippled by burn, and destroyed by any Pokemon with a grass, poison, or electric type moves. Granted, it's an effective stop to megazard x and many other dangerous Pokemon, which is why it's A+ rank. But it's lack of use against Offensive teams (I find it to be particularly lackluster against spikes stacking teams) and the fact that you need to be a prediction wizard to get the most out of the CB set keep it from being S rank.
I disagree with a couple of your points here. Burns suck, yeah, but WoW users are not all that common, and you shouldn't be using Azu to absorb Scalds in the first place. Grass/Electric/Poison moves are not that common barring mons that carry them as STAB, so it not like you'll be surprised by coverage moves aside from a Tbolt Lati or two. Azu is rather weak to hazards, but it pairs so well with the Latis, Starmie, and Driller that it's not particularly difficult to fit removal with Azu in my eyes. Finally, CB Azu requires the least prediction out of all of its sets because it hits so damn hard. CB boosted Play Rough demolishes anything that doesn't resist it, and even some things that do resist it. It gets a ton of great OHKOs and 2HKOs, and rocks support nets even more important KOes. Waterfall hits just about everything else (I can think of three things that resist Water/Fairy). AJ also has just enough power from band to nail some nice OHKOs like Excadrill and take huge chunks from Lop and M-Zam. Also keep in mind how few things can actually OHKO Azuzu, so it will be able to fire off at least a hit or two every game. Water Fairy Bunny for S.

I disagree with a M-Pinsir rise because of its rocks weakness and the fact that most removal options stack weaknesses to stuff like Ttar, Bisharp, and Driller.

252+ Atk Choice Band Huge Power Azumarill Play Rough vs. 252 HP / 172 Def Clefable: 280-331 (71 - 84%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Huge Power Azumarill Play Rough vs. 252 HP / 232+ Def Slowbro: 184-217 (46.7 - 55%) -- 99.6% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Huge Power Azumarill Play Rough vs. 96 HP / 0 Def Tornadus-T: 322-381 (99.6 - 117.9%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Huge Power Azumarill Play Rough vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Manaphy: 268-316 (78.5 - 92.6%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Choice Band Huge Power Azumarill Play Rough vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mega Charizard X: 244-288 (82.1 - 96.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Choice Band Huge Power Azumarill Waterfall vs. 248 HP / 0+ Def Mega Scizor: 162-192 (47.2 - 55.9%) -- 79.3% chance to 2HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Huge Power Azumarill Waterfall vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 135-160 (40.4 - 47.9%) -- 4.7% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Huge Power Azumarill Aqua Jet vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mega Lopunny: 126-148 (46.4 - 54.6%) -- 64.5% chance to 2HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Huge Power Azumarill Aqua Jet vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Excadrill: 356-422 (98.6 - 116.8%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO
 
There are so many teams which look like they lose to Azu at preview, but can usually just sac one thing to get some damage on it and negate it. Choice Band, arguably the best set, is much easier to wall in practise than people are making out as well. Strong A+, not S material.

Keldeo to S shouldn't even be discussed right now. Post-Hoopa meta changes have actually hurt it (despite putting a premium on Dark checks) because its speed tier is increasingly lackluster. It's still as easily walled as ever.

Re Tornadus...Hurricane's accuracy is the biggest issue against offense, and so despite its speed tier, I don't see this as a great matchup for it. Balanced and stall can't risk losing members and so tend to be significantly pressured by Life Orb and even AV, while at the same time AV Torn walls a lot of typical balance offensive mons like Keld. Balance is really struggling atm though so Torn is definitely fine in A+.
 

DennisEG

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Respect the nomination of the "World Renowned Asian Sweetheart" about Serp to A+ dont think is worth at all just for a set in particular, yes that set is deadly but isnt than effective agaisnt fast builds such as Torn/Mie/Kou/Mega slot, but can handle stall by itself so i think Rank A is good enough for that job. As people were talking bout Torn which is one of the counters Serp had although had to rely on Cane to hit it is an excellent answer for this set cuz lack of glare, also Talon is everywhere even on stall teams, also Leaf had low pp which can be stalled out possible by Unawares mon + Fat mons. For example: Taking a Leaf then protect in the next one, and switch out continuosly this depend of course if are Rocks up and prediction.
 
I agree with Azumarill to S for the aforementioned reasons (offensive options) as well as one more.

I won't write too much about the offensive sets except just to say that there is absolutely no way to differentiate whether azu is banded or BD at team preview and so called scouting is extremely punishable when it potentially means taking a banded knock off or giving it a free +6 when you switch in slowbro or whatever. This is unlike a situation where you can usually figure out if the opponents ttar is either scarf or smooth rock, whether their scizor is banded or bulky. With azu it's impossible to know, there are no clues to its item, and the consequences can be dire.

+6 252+ Atk Huge Power Azumarill Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 88+ Def Ferrothorn: (97.7 - 115%)

252+ Atk Choice Band Huge Power Azumarill Play Rough vs. 252 HP / 232+ Def Slowbro: (46.7 - 55%)

This can be the cost of mis-guessing.

100/80/80 is perfectly fine bulk for switching into plenty of things as well. Counters top threats like weavile/keldeo, checks basically every dragon in existence, can take 2 earthquakes from defensive lando, etc etc. Obviously the bulk has limits but manaphy is notoriously difficult to ohko and azu is only one step below that.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Now for the other reason I wanted to talk about.

The sap sipper set has gained a bit of legitimacy recently in some circles due to blanket countering serperior, both zards, breloom, ferro, and a few other things. This is only a minor point to add to the previous ones. Offensive azu is obviously the best way to play. But skarm and chansey don't hold up against serperior indefinitely. Latias indeed counters zard-y but is destroyed by pursuit, which azu is not. I have found a few teams where bulky azu was actually the pokemon that best fit.

If a pokemon has A++ offensive abilities as well as a completely unrelated C/C+ defensive role then clearly there is quite a strong case for S rank.

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Is the low speed, somewhat limited coverage, and extremely exploitable electric weakness enough to keep it out of S? I personally do not think so, because decent bulk mitigates speed problem, raw power mitigates coverage problem, and priority can take out electric types with prior damage, or simply weaken them for a separate threat on your team. Or you can just switch. It's also important to note that anything capable of ohkoing azu is very unlikely to be able to switch in to it safely unless it's venu.
 

Martin

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This isn't on the slate, but I do have a kinda small nom to make.

Blissey --> Unranked: With Gothitelle gone, I think that Blissey is now in a position where it can be unranked. Its key niche came from its Shed Shell set on stall, but with Goth gone and the long-gone Landorus not there to act as an Ice Beam target, it is just so hard to justify its use on a team over Chansey anymore. I get that it isn't crippled by Koff and that catching an unsuspecting Ferrothorn with Fire Blast is cool, but the loss in bulk is big enough to the point that losing the option of a pivotal item like Shed Shell just feels like it was the final nail in Blissey's coffin.
 

p2

Banned deucer.
all these people saying torn-t isnt s

torn-t is easily one of the most dominant mons right now for its ability to outlast everything. in the long run, hurricane isn't that much of an issue when everything gets brought to the point where torns coverage picks it off half of the time. hurricane is just the icing on the cake, its your choice if you wanna go for hurricane early game and lose your torn because of it bc risking something like specs keldeo is pretty dumb when you should have another answer for it to come in, force it out and eventually wear it down to the point where torn has done its job and if hurricane misses, you're not losing an essential part of your team anymore because its already done what it does. point is, hurricane is made out to be this must-use move when its not very necessary and when you're using hurricane, you need to take into account what you lose from missing it because its so likely to miss that you can't really bank on it well unless its some last mon situation.

keld and azu are definitely s, dont know what you're on if you disagree with those.

azu is so good right now and its cb set just pressures the living shit out of everything, and like 56k said, it's impossible to tell its set on preview, meaning that one mispredict completely screws you and band has nearly been impossible to switch into on offense. band has always been really annoying for offense and because people just throw on garchomp as their check for physical attackers, azu has an easier time because all it needs to do is land play rough and it just opens a huge hole in your opponents team half the time. bd azu is less effective against offense, but its an incredible stallbreaker, pretty much winning against most bulkier builds when the quag/clef/alt are weakened.

keld just pressures everything with scald + hpump, the same thing its been doing since xy, common answers to it are owned by pursuit or coverage etc etc i dont think i need to go on about this mon that much

put it this way, keldeo is the bigger restraint when playing (when you factor in actual shit like teammates w/ pursuit etc), azu is the bigger restraint when building, and manaphy is sitting between these two because its harder to account for than azu when building a lot of the time, but its generally slightly easier to play around than keldeo. the best 3 offensive waters in the tier should all be sharing the same rank.
for what its worth, im not trying to imply any of these are suspect worthy because i feel my post comes off that way

This isn't on the slate, but I do have a kinda small nom to make.

Blissey --> Unranked: With Gothitelle gone, I think that Blissey is now in a position where it can be unranked. Its key niche came from its Shed Shell set on stall, but with Goth gone and the long-gone Landorus not there to act as an Ice Beam target, it is just so hard to justify its use on a team over Chansey anymore. I get that it isn't crippled by Koff and that catching an unsuspecting Ferrothorn with Fire Blast is cool, but the loss in bulk is big enough to the point that losing the option of a pivotal item like Shed Shell just feels like it was the final nail in Blissey's coffin.
blissey should stay d rank on the basis that its cm set works as a counter to manaphy, something that chansey shouldn't bother running because blissey has ok damage output, and thus actually threatens the shit its supposed to beat.
 

WhiteQueen

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I'm gonna bandwagon and agree that Azumarill should be moved to S. It's defensive Sap Sipper set is nowhere near as common as its offensive sets (at least not yet). I can confirm that it's highly effective, capable of checking / walling Breloom, Serperior, the two Charizard megas, Ferrothorn, Keldeo, Latios and Latias (-Thunderbolt), etc. depending on which defense the EVs are invested.

Azumarill @ Leftovers
Sap Sipper
248 HP / 252 Def / 8 Sp.Def

It has two great moves in Knock Off and Scald to make this set work.
 

Heatmor

Banned deucer.
I agree with the majority of the chat saying Azumarill being moved to S Rank. It is versatile, as it can run a Belly Drum Set, Choice Band Set, AV, and even a Defensive Sap Sipper Set that can wall many threats in OU like Zard X/Y, Ferro, and Breloom, as WhiteQueen has mentioned.

Not to mention it's more mainstream sets can check many things in the tier, such as Tyranitar, Bisharp (if no Flinchhax) and Mega Gardevoir. If it isn't S Rank then I believe that it has surely earned it's A+ Rank.
 

DennisEG

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I'm really agree with WQ and flegg bout Azu moving up to S rank for all the reason they mentioned above.

About Torn moving to S i dont think it deserve that rank, let me explain why. First most of the S rank mon are consider solid win cons because had access to boosting moves and some of them had reliable recover, great movepool that need a bit of support of the team, just a bit. But Torn is the pokemon who should give support and work as pivot or Stallbreaker in general with the LO set, Im so undecided about moving up just because you cannot rely to win a game in hurricane, also dont have a boosting move to benefics in late game, yes it is an incredible mon right now but A+ rank is more than enough.

And same as Keldeo is just a great mon to break teams early games but most of the time is being choice lock, and its stronger attacks are inaccurate such as Hydro and Focus (yeah ik is uncommon), nonetheless as flegg mention can put a whole lot of pressure immediatly but that just make it an incredible heavy hitter or late game cleaner but dont think that's enough for S, although its extremely close to this rank due to its amazing typing allow it to check dark spam which is pretty common nowondays.
 
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Century Express

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I believe both Keldeo and Azuma are fine at A+. Azumarill is something which i always see as a anti-metagame Pokémon, because even though most builds realize the threat of it, they still manage to be really weak against it, especially when BO / HO modern teams are so reliant on Lando-T or RH Chomper to switch-in on everything. But also, i believe he share one of two flaws that hinders him a bit to do his job 100% reliable. A example which a find very common, is when you use Azumarill as your Water-resist or Weavile check, or Zard X check in a pinch. He will be able to do one of these functions (wallbreaking, or checking these kind of threats), but it's actually pretty hard to do both, considering Scald burns chances, Knock Off removing Choice Band, and some others. In the question of BD sets, it makes Azumarill share completely different checks, because it's usually the main reason (along Keldeo and Manaphy) why Water-resists are so important on teambuilding. But it doesn't mean that 100% of the playstyles are weak against Azumarill, like Stall limiting a lot Azuma with a Unaware user + Amoonguss or Slowbro. I see Azuma matchuping 2~3 playstyles (guess i can fit Offense, some Balanced squads, and Rain i guess?), but i don't see him being so dominant at level of mons like Clefable.

I would agree with Keldeo move to S-Rank a few months, but i just feel Keldeo is too much... overprepared. Yes, there are some conventional support like Pursuit for Latis and Torn-T (in a pinch), SR support for Torn-T, and the Keldeo itself already makes support, taking advantage Scald burning almost every single check (bar Celebi) on the early-game. Not only it's a good offensive threat, as it's a useful Bisharp and Weavile switch-in, and finds a lot of opportunities to pressure common switch-ins like Chomper, Tran and Hippo as well. He kinda needs to fish the burn (and Pursuit, although i don't see Pursuit as a obligatory) to finally exploit his full potential at mid- or late-game, and this little factors hinders him from be S-Rank imo. But it would be nice to hear some extra points about it, since i'm kinda on the fence about him.
 

AM

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I always thought torn-T and Azu are of higher calibur than most of the A+ and to me are S. It's w/e though most of the more experienced guys have their own mental note of threat lists / viability so I'm fine if they stay where they are. Torn-T being remotely a low A+ is laughable to, lol. The Sap Sipper Azu set isn't why it's S lol, it's just team constraint wise that's where people are coming from.

Century Express covered Keldeo pretty well and in my eyes it would be silly to put Keldeo above things like Weavile where its constraint to teambuilding is way higher to me than Keldeo is, along with TFlame which has a super good Wisp / SD set. Neither of those should be S either so I don't think Keldeo should be either.

Serp shouldn't move up like DennisEG stated. Not a whole lot to say other than it's a good mon that's perfectly fine in A.

I don't agree with Mega Pinsir rising. Arcanine's post about it is overselling it so much. If Skarmory is your only countermeasure to Pinsir then you can expect a "lol..." from me after stating that. Pinsir is always something that should be taken into account, as such the nature of using legitimate flying type counterplays considering how good Torn-T and Talonflame has been for awhile. It hasn't gotten any better and should stay where it is.

Edit: and no to Kyurem-B to A+ ._.
 

Heatmor

Banned deucer.
Mega Pinsir is hard to take down if it is +2, but there are many, many things that can take it down at +2 in OU. In fact, anything that has a Speed Tier past 105, either/or has some way to live or avoid a +2 Quick Attack, and has a super-effective move should be good to go. Things that come in mind are Scarf Tyranitar, Garchomp, Thundurus-Incarnate, and even Starmie.
You also have it's insane weakness to Mega Pinsir, so it can't really switch in and out more than once. If you set up Stealth Rock, it should be weakened to the point of being one-shotted. 65/120/90 isn't terrible, but it's definitely isn't spectacular, either.
 
Azu and Keldeo should stay where they are, they aren't on Manaphy's level and are too easy to wear down in the long run. Choiced sets need heavy prediction against stuff like Latios and Ferrothorn, BD Azu can't muscle through Serp, Latias, or Dragonite (which means it needs a bit of team support), SubCM Keldeo suffers against Mega Venu and Tangrowth, while Toxicroak shitstomps both of them no matter the set (bar CB Azu's Play Rough).

Torn-T has a 70% accuracy STAB move, how can this thing be moved to S rank is a mystery to me. S rank means reliability and consistency. Tornadus-T doesn't have these qualities. It's good at A+.

If anything, Hoopa-U should go S rank. I don't see how this thing is worse than Manaphy, since it has so many options against stall and defensively-inclined teams it's not even funny, with impressive coverage in the AoA set, Nasty Plot (which means +2 focus miss 2hkoes chansey!!!), and even a nice AV set to last against stuff like Latios and Specs Raikou (plus Drain Punch to stay alive) and thus threaten offense teams. I'd personally say AV Hoopa > AV Azu, depending on how you look at it. Not to mention Choice Scarf.
 
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Martin

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I never like arguments which use low accuracy as their basis tbh because on any move with 51% accuracy or more (i.e. most moves) you're more likely to hit than you are to not anyway. While if the move is close to 50% it probably isnt that good (the only slightly common one i can think of is Hypnosis), a move that has 70% accuracy is pretty reliable in the great scheme of things. Sure, misses suck, but honestly your ability to remedy the damage that those misses cause is a big part of what makes a player good. People act as if Hurricane, Focus Blast and Stone Edge never hit, and it just baffles me because i can honestly be reasonably comfortable clicking them most of the time anyway. Additionally, people seem to be forgetting that Torn usually clicks U-turn anyway, with it maybe luring something with its coverage options every now and again, to the point that you only really click Hurricane when the risk is low due to your opponent dying when it does hit (e.g. v.s. Keld) - leaving them forced out. Before I start my next sentence, I'm just gonna say thatI don't mean to pick on you in particular, but you are the most recent one and a perfect example of someone doing this. DoABarrelRoll's post shows exactly the kind of thing that I am talking about, using Hurricane's accuracy as the entire basis of his argument and saying that it makes it inconsistent despite the fact that the moves it normslly clicks are very consistent anyway, in addition to the fact that it achieves its goal in basically every game it plays in, and honestly if that isn't consistency then there is no such thing as consistency.

I personally agree with Bludz and co that it should be S rank in the current meta on the basis that it is more consistently effective at achieving its goal than than anything else in A+ imo.
 
I would like to nominate Serperior for A+ simply because of this set:

Fuck Stall Serperior
Timid Nature @ Leftovers
252 Sp.Attk / 236 Spe / 20 Def
--
Leaf Storm
Hidden Power Fire
Taunt
Synthesis

Do I need to write 9 paragraphs and post some replays to justify my nomination?

AM Edit: I like reading 9 paragraphs from you believe it or not.
I'm gonna bandwagon and agree that Azumarill should be moved to S. It's defensive Sap Sipper set is nowhere near as common as its offensive sets (at least not yet). I can confirm that it's highly effective, capable of checking / walling Breloom, Serperior, the two Charizard megas, Ferrothorn, Keldeo, Latios and Latias (-Thunderbolt), etc. depending on which defense the EVs are invested.

Azumarill @ Leftovers
Sap Sipper
248 HP / 252 Def / 8 Sp.Def

It has two great moves in Knock Off and Scald to make this set work.
Sap Sipper Azumarill is now standard on stall teams since Goth is gone, therefore your Serperios set should be renamed into "Fuck subpar stall".
In other words, no, Serperior shouldn't rise. Azumarill however should definitely be S rank.
 
I've honestly never understood why Keldeo ever dropped. Not a single thing has changed since XY and yet it flip flops between A+ and S. Literally nothing, outside of like Jellicent, is particularly okay with coming in on a Keldeo. Scald is such a stupid move. . . Not only does scald have that ridiculous burn chance but 129 SpA is nothing to scoff at. Keldeo does the same Shit its done since the creation of Scald, pressure everything until it's burned or dead, and either way Keldeo does so every time it comes in. Regardless of the set, Keldeo is guaranteed to push the opponent into a corner. People love bringing up how "mindless" a Pokemon is, Keldeo is the definition of such a Mon.

Move that mofo back to S.
 
Definitely agree with azumarill to s rank. This thing is just such a huge threat overall to pretty much every team. Offense as is has a hard time finding switch ins to this monster and banded sets are so scary its not even funny. What are offense's main switch in's to azu again? Mega scizor and trying to lock azu into a resisted move so that they can switch into it? I saw a argument about burns but that can literally apply to every physical attacker in the tier that is affected by them so there is that. Aside from that while azu is not typically a diverse pokemon running the exact same moves on every set azu does has a lure set which lures in scizor and ferrothorn which can be pretty deadly. Belly drum sets are a absolute monster to face period as many times team end up using their latis to offensively check this set. While azu is slow i and while that is a issue its not a huge one when you have solid overall bulk. Av is also still nice on offense teams as it allows you to take on rain which offense loves having answers for. Some nice versatility in terms of sets all of them being huge threats to teams.
 

Heatmor

Banned deucer.
If anything, Hoopa-U should go S rank. I don't see how this thing is worse than Manaphy, since it has so many options against stall and defensively-inclined teams it's not even funny, with impressive coverage in the AoA set, Nasty Plot (which means +2 focus miss 2hkoes chansey!!!), and even a nice AV set to last against stuff like Latios and Specs Raikou (plus Drain Punch to stay alive) and thus threaten offense teams. I'd personally say AV Hoopa > AV Azu, depending on how you look at it. Not to mention Choice Scarf.
Although Hoopa-Unbound hits like a truck, and is specially bulky, with a wide movepool, in my opinion that's about all it's got going for it. For starters it has a useless ability that is theretically able to be taken advantage of that will always be useless in the competitively useless. It's wondrous Dark/Psychic typing gives a grand total of zero resistances, and the two weaknesses it has are relatively common attacking types. Beyond that, it has a Base 60 Defense and a rather low Base 80 HP which can basically assure that it's going to die to almost any physical hit. Base 80 Speed isn't slow, but it definitely isn't fast either, so because of this, it sometimes is revenge killed after taking a wall out.

However, despite all of these factors, Hoopa-Unbound still was able to be in S Rank for a time, and still remains a top threat today. It is also versatile (as you implied), able to run Mixed and Physical, Nasty Plot, AoA and even a less common AV Set effectively. So I would say that it should stay in A+ Rank, at least for now.
 
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