Resource ORAS OU Viability Ranking Thread V4

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Wait why the feck did Manaphy drop? Is there any concrete evidence it's becoming less common? Because in my experience it's as threatening as ever

'Balance teams are putting scarfers and faster mons to keep it in check' yeah in most cases those are piss weak mons which can't even kill Mana in one move unless they pack stab super effective moves... and most of the times they don't enjoy switching in a stab scald because of poor bulk on average plus the risk of a burn.

Manaphy is not dead weight vs hyper offense either. While it's true that its sweeping opportunities in these matchups are close to zero, thanks to its ridicolous bulk its still an excellent pivot and can throw punches into those weak (on average) sweepers.

What bugs me is the fact that no discussion whatsoever was held on this thread regardin manaphy so i start questioning the point of this thread lol
You could have asked a VR member like bludz on why it dropped instead of asking us, this drop was likely a VR decision, so you are better off asking them.
 
Sorry for making another nomination but I think A+ is a little overcrowded.

Heatran to A

Unless an offensive set is being used, Heatran has trouble threatening the pokemon it is supposed to check. Fairies being a prime example. Even though it can wall many pokemon, all it can do in return is status or phaze them. Clefable is a prime example.

When comparing it to Hippowdon, Heatran has a unique defensive typing, more versatile sets and a greater offensive presence, at the cost of more bulk, a SR resistance and reliable recovery.

Overall, the rise of Calm Mind, bulky ground types and hazards hurt it. I see it in a similar boat to Hippo and Tyranitar and thus, believe it should drop to A.
 
i think you could make an argument of latios being s but that requires you to move like 3 other mons to s like keldeo which is plain stupid. the metagame has only shifted away from latios with new pursuit users becoming common such as metagross (albeit not much).

i ain't supporting a rise for shit nigga but since what time was "specs latios ass" ? last time i checked it has won most games in tour and has had success on the ladder because of its obscene power 2hkoing clefable with psyshock and being able to take a birdshit on hippowdon and slowbro users who think they can slack off life orb meteor. in addition it obliterates people who act like scarf jirachi is their latios check and its access to trick lets you cripple any mon you desire like sdef tran, sdef skarm, sdef jirachi, chansey (which you should be 2hkoing with little damage anyways),... once you trick away specs, you can use your 4th move if it is utility such as roost, defog, heal block, memento,... it is inferior when it comes to switching moves but it is a real set that shouldn't be underestimated.
Specs Latios is very risky to use against Pursuit trappers such as Tyranitar, Scizor, etc. b/c if they switch into Psyshock your Latios gets fucked no matter how you look at it, it becomes a liability. You can't even go for the Draco to at least deal some good damage. Meanwhile, LO variants can just use Surf for Hippo/Tran or Thunderbolt for Slowbro/Skarm... I guess Trick has an argument against Jirachi and Chansey though (but cm variants can dispose of the pink blob).

idk, i really question the viability of this set, b/c the advantages over LO (defog or CM) are very minor
 

bludz

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Wait why the feck did Manaphy drop? Is there any concrete evidence it's becoming less common? Because in my experience it's as threatening as ever

'Balance teams are putting scarfers and faster mons to keep it in check' yeah in most cases those are piss weak mons which can't even kill Mana in one move unless they pack stab super effective moves... and most of the times they don't enjoy switching in a stab scald because of poor bulk on average plus the risk of a burn.

Manaphy is not dead weight vs hyper offense either. While it's true that its sweeping opportunities in these matchups are close to zero, thanks to its ridicolous bulk its still an excellent pivot and can throw punches into those weak (on average) sweepers.

What bugs me is the fact that no discussion whatsoever was held on this thread regardin manaphy so i start questioning the point of this thread lol
Um yeah so there was definitely discussion regarding Manaphy. First I remember was Laurel (and probably others as well) made a nomination for it to drop and cited some solid reasons although I disagreed at the time. I kind of alluded to it potentially dropping in the past couple of pages as well.

Basically while it's still a big threat, the metagame has adapted and people are preparing for it more than ever especially on balance and stall, while offense has always had plenty of solid answers and that hasn't changed.

Might still be the best thing in A+ (although IDK about that) but the ranking team felt it no longer deserved a spot beside the other 3 S ranks as while it is certainly meta defining, its presence simply doesn't have the same effect on a match now that the metagame has adapted.

Regarding Latios to S I think henry kinda summed it up for the most part. It hasn't really gotten better. Honestly it's a top 5 splashable mon in the tier which has a ton of utility and is just overall great. But Dark, Fairy, and Steel type checks are as abundant as ever and most well built teams have a solid 2-3 checks if not counters to it. Hell most teams that use hazards beyond Stealth Rock have ways to heavily pressure Latios, most notably Scarf Tar and Bisharp. It's certainly good but S is pushing it imo.
 

eldes

Banned deucer.
random question but do you guys still think mega charizard x, mega sableye, and clefable are still s rank worthy, if so why and do you think any of them should drop if so why
by the way this is my first time posting on these forums
 

Srn

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random question but do you guys still think mega charizard x, mega sableye, and clefable are still s rank worthy, if so why and do you think any of them should drop if so why
by the way this is my first time posting on these forums
Welcome to Smogon.
tbqh I think zard x has gotten worse these past few months.

Lando-t usage has hit an all time-high, and more scarf tar on balance usually means more excadrill as well. Frankly, it's just getting tougher and tougher to sweep with zard-x these days with azu, exca under sand, heatran, lando-t, tyranitar, and mega diancie on offense to check and slowbro, hippo, and quaggy on balance and stall as strong checks, it has its work cut out for it.
A quick glance at OLT usage stats shows Lando-t at #1, Tyranitar at #4, hippowdon at #6, exca at #8, heatran at #11, and azu at #14 (and zard, combined x and y usage, at #18). Its checks are common and good, and are going to keep seeing more use in the foreseeable future.
DD is still amazingly strong, we can't deny that, and most of these checks will lose little prior damage after a boost, but it's still being checked; what I'm referring to is only ideal scenario. Offense has plenty of ways to keep up the pressure to prevent set up and keep its checks healthy.
Of course, increased lando-t and azu usage is actually kind of good for bulky wisp char-x, meaning that it will do its job more often (burning relevant shit), but the decreased effectiveness of the DD set is good enough reason for it to drop to A+
It's still the best dragon dancer in the tier, meta trends are just against dragon dancers in general rn.

msab I've never thought of as S rank but meh. Clef is S rank for sure tho.
 

Martin

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Tbh now that I think about it Clefable is the only really clear-cut S mon in the current state of the meta. Between the trends that Srn mentioned and the fall in effectiveness of stall, Zard X and Sab don't really feel like the mons they were a few weeks ago.

Tbh Sab has always been a bit on the edge as far as hether it is S or not and, while its utility is still amazing on stall and balance, the loss of Goth has kinda hit it hard in terms of its viability imo and the rise in offense mons which can either pressure it severely or use it as setup fodder further hinders its case.

As for Zard, Srn has basically taken the words out of my mouth so I won't say anything else on the matter.
 

eldes

Banned deucer.
ah i see
so i guess nominate mega sableye and mega charizard x from s rank to a+ rank then as added discussions to the previous ones
though im surprise you guys mention zard x here considering iv only see people say good things about zard x and one or 2 people wanting clefable to drop to a+ rank a few times
 
Latios: A+

Pros:

- Latios reaches a solid 110 Speed and can normally run a neutral nature like Modest when using Choice Scarf.
- Access to Trick, especially with Choice Specs or Scarf, has the potential to cripple some of its checks.
- Draco Meteor and Psychic are a decent STAB combination, with Hidden Power, Ice Beam or Surf, is good coverage to have for a sweeper.
- 80/80/110 bulk is nothing to scoff at from a Special Sweeper, meaning it can usually tank a hit relatively easily.
- Levitate gives it an immunity to Ground-Type moves, Spikes, and Toxic Spikes, making Stealth Rock the only true problem.

Cons:

- Latios as an attacker is very risk-reward. Draco Meteor in itself isn't an easy launch thanks to Fairy-Type Pokemon like Clefable and Specially Defensive Pokemon--even Tyranitar. Speaking of Tyranitar, Dark-Types can take advantage of Psychic and switch in when it would likely be used. Hidden Power also has a serious negative draw on Latios; you'll have to sacrifice a single point in speed, meaning that, unless you're Scarfed, you'll lose to Gengar.
- Thanks to its Psychic-Type, Latios is prone to being Pursuit-Trapped. This is...somewhat alleviated thanks to the fact that Latios will normally give some damage before it goes down, but it's always a problem nonetheless.
- Defog/Roost isn't the best option when you might need to opt for a 4th coverage move, especially with the usage of TankChomp. I personally never understood it on Latios, but apparently it's a thing, so oh well.

Overall, it's easily A+ material more so than S.

Kyurem-B: A

Pros:

- Kyurem-B has 170 Attack and 120 Special Attack, meaning it can go either Physical or mixed without a hitch.
- Its movepool consists of Ice Beam, Outrage, Earth Power, Fusion Bolt, and Iron Head, meaning its Offensive options are perfect for wallbreaking.
- SubRoost, while I personally think is better done by regular Kyurem, is a possibility with this forme.
- 125/100/90 Bulk is fabulous for anything that wants to attack.
- This is a Pokemon that makes TankChomp and Landorus-T run, which is a good thing in this meta.

Cons:

- Kyurem-B only reaches 95 Speed, which means that Choice Scarf is almost a must unless you play a more defensive role.
- No access to any reliable Physical Ice Move. No, Freeze Shock isn't reliable and Power Herb with it isn't very good.
- Dragon/Ice is awful. It's horrid Offensively because the Dragon-Type is useless, it's almost as bad Defensively because of the weakness to Bullet Punch, Mach Punch, Stealth Rock, and Moonblast, which almost completely negates the really good bulk.

Though it seems that Kyurem-B has more pros than cons, those cons are huge. Though that is true, Kyurem-B maintains its status as a wallbreaker well, and putting it in A- doesn't give it the deserved credit it so desperately needs now with Hoopa-U in the mix.

Mega Metagross: A

Pros:

- 145 Attack + Tough Claws means some massive damage.
- 110 Speed is a decent speed tier.
- 80/150/110 Bulk on top of all this is great, since this means it can switch in relatively easily.
- Its movepool's best options consist of Meteor Mash, Power-Up Punch (which, honestly, is somewhat useless), Pursuit, Ice Punch, Hammer Arm, Earthquake, Bullet Punch, and Zen Headbutt.

Cons:

- Steel/Psychic isn't the best typing. Offensively, it depends on coverage to take care of Steel-Types. Defensively, it can be Pursuit Trapped, burned, etc.
- To boost its Attack, it's normally dependent on Meteor Mash and its 50% chance. Let's not also forget that Meteor Mash can miss 15% of the time.
- TankChomp is the literal bane of Mega Metagross. Even with Ice Punch, it's losing a huge chunk of health, compromising its bulk immediately.
- Pre-Mega Speed at 70, which can be seriously irritating.
- Worth using for your Mega?

Mega Metagross had hype, now it's gone. I say it's perfect at A.

Mega Gyarados: A

Pros:

- New Water-Dark Typing is great offensively. Waterfall+Crunch is good offensively, with Ice Fang for a bit of decent coverage against Landorus-T or Tank Chomp.
- Access to Dragon Dance means that boosting is almost certain to happen, maybe even multiple times.
- 95/109/130 Bulk is only made better when Intimidate activates before it Mega Evolves.
- 155 Attack with Dragon Dance is difficult to switch into.
- Mold Breaker doesn't mean too much, but it can punch through some slightly irritating threats a bit easier. Mega Venusaur's Thick Fat, Dragonite's Multiscale, Shedinja (though with Crunch, no biggie anyways), just to name a couple things, are dealt with easier than before.
- 81 Speed doesn't sound good at first, but then you remember Dragon Dance.
- A Mega Slot worth using, actually.

Cons:

- Water-Dark misses out on hitting Azumarill hard, which can Play Rough back at most any attack.
- Ice Fang is almost a must thanks to TankChomp and Landorus-T.
- TankChomp and Ferrothorn exist. Enough said.
- While no longer weak to Rock and also not fearing Thunderbolt as much, U-Turn and Moonblast become irritating threats, as well as any Grass-Type move.

I'm probably the guy that still prefers Base Gyarados, but I think we should keep Mega Gyarados at A. It's still a solid threat.

Mega Aerodactyl: B+

Pros:

- 150 Speed is atrocious.
- 135 Attack and Tough Claws makes its attack fantastic.
- Enough Physical Coverage Moves to work with (Fang moves)

Cons:

- First and foremost, Rock Slide and Stone Edge don't actually make contact, meaning Tough Claws can't boost them. This also, without saying, goes for Earthquake.
- This is a Pokemon that wishes for Brave Bird so much. It gets Sky Attack and Sky Drop. Those are...LAME.
- Fang moves are notoriously weak, even after Tough Claws.
- Weak to Stealth Rock just to make things worse.
- Takes up a Mega Slot.

Just drop it. I never got how this was good.

Mega Tyranitar: B-

Pros:

- 164 Attack is great, of course.
- 100/150/120 Bulk is made better thanks to Sandstorm.
- Access to Dragon Dance to make better use of its already good attack.
- Movepool that includes Pursuit, Crunch, Stone Edge, and some good coverage options like Earthquake.

Cons:

- 71 Speed is awful. Even after Dragon Dance, so many things still outspeed it.
- Rock/Dark is terrible. Good STAB, awful weaknesses that crush it too quickly.
- Takes up a Mega Slot.

I was never apt on this one. As little as I've used it, it was just underwhelming. Drop it.

Mega Heracross: B+ → B?

Pros:

- Skill Link with the movepool to use it, with Pin Missile and Rock Blast being the best moves for it.
- 180 Attack is good--no questions.
- 80/115/105 Bulk is definitely nothing to ignore.
- Bug-Fight is great offensively, except when fighting Fairy-Types, but Rock Blast and Bullet Seed can make up for that.

Cons:

- Mega Heracross actually LOST Speed, now sitting at a pitiful 75. This is a Pokemon that begs to be Revenge Killed.
- Talonflame is the bane of this Pokemon, except when it decides to switch into Rock Blast.
- It gets Arm Thrust, which is STILL weaker than Close Combat even with Skill Link.
- Landorus-T and Gliscor laugh it off most of the time.

Hard to say where it belongs, but I'm fine with either one.

Amoonguss: B+

Pros:
- Grass-Poison is great in this meta. This makes Amoonguss able to tank hits from Keldeo, Rotom-W, and Breloom just to name a couple.
- 114 Health in combination with Regenerator is great, giving Amoonguss plenty of health back on the switch out.
- Clear Smog is a riot, preventing set-up sweepers from doing their job, particularly Serperior.
- Access to Foul Play means that Amoonguss can make Pokemon like Talonflame pay for switching in at a bad time.
- Spore. A would be counter becomes a sitting duck with this move...but only when you properly time it.

Cons:
- Amoonguss doesn't have the best bulk. 114/70/80 is OKAY, but as far as bulk goes, Mega Venusaur has more of it.
- It also doesn't have fantastic offenses. Even as a tank, they're a bit on the low end in comparison to Mega Venusaur or Rotom-W, at 85/85.
- When Spore is used and you put an opponent's Pokemon to sleep, that's the only one (Thanks, Sleep Clause <3 ). Everything else is safe from being put to sleep.
- Despite the good typing, it gives Amoonguss plenty of Pokemon that threaten it. Charizard, Talonflame, Staraptor, Mamoswine, Kyurem-B, any Psychic or Ice Beam user, the list is pretty large.

Despite everything bad I say about Amoonguss, it is still a great match up against multiple Pokemon, and fits well as part of a defensive core. For this, and the pros above, I would like to see Amoonguss rise--eventually higher than B+, but it's fine for now.

Togekiss: B+

Before I begin, I want to go ahead and mention that I run a pure ParaFlinch set rather than anything on the analysis. I will take my set and the sets and options that are "Smogon Approved" each on even ground.

Pros:
- Fairy-Flying is great defensively, especially when combined with the tanky 85/95/115 bulk it has going for it.
- 120 Special Attack and Nasty Plot is something to watch out for, especially when combined with the rest of its movepool.
- ParaFlinch. Everything going for it is one single pro. Thunder Wave and Serene Grace Air Slash isn't fun. At all. In fact, it might be the most annoying part of Togekiss. It's the part of Togekiss that can muscle it through some would-be checks with a bit of luck, even Ubers.
- Aura Sphere and Fire Blast as coverage options work well, especially since Dazzling Gleam isn't the best most despite being a STAB (it wishes it had Moonblast). This makes Pokemon like Scizor and Tyranitar keep on their toes to make sure the opposing Togekiss doesn't have the aforementioned moves.
- Heal Bell. Thanks to this little move, Togekiss can work as a cleric with ease.
- Roost. The ultimate move for a tank like this.

Cons:
- Electric and Ground Pokemon prevent a Paraflinch. Electric-Types in particular resist Air Slash.
- Weak to Stealth Rock. No more would have to be said.
- Togekiss is unfortunately easy to Revenge Kill thanks to its paltry 80 Speed, which puts it between the sweepers like Gengar and the slow Priority Users like Scizor.
- While this might sound like a nitpick, Air Slash's accuracy is only 95, meaning that it will eventually miss at a key moment (happened to me, at least).

I never understood the Togekiss hate. Maybe it was just really overhyped to some kind of point, but I think B+ is a good place for it. Anything lower wouldn't be giving it credit for what it can do.

Tangrowth: B → B+?

Needs more testing before I talk about it.

Gastrodon: B → B+?

I have one of these--battle ready, in fact. I think it's time to start using it.

Mega Sharpedo: B → B-?

Never had one, never bred one, completely forgot it had a Mega until now.

Tyrantrum: C+

I'm not saying I HATE Tyrantrum—quite the opposite. It's easily one of my favorite fossil Pokemon, second only to Rampardos (I said it—bite me), but I see no reason to use it over Tyranitar or even Base Aggron outside of the Dragon-Typing. This is a Pokemon we can easily skip and let drop.

Crawdaunt: B

Like with Togekiss, I run a different build of Crawdaunt: A Physical (this includes Defense) Choice Band Set. Once again, though, both my set and the Smogon Analysis will be put on equal ground to avoid too much bias.

Pros:
- Water-Dark, as mentioned before, is great offensively, especially when said Dark-Type is using Knock Off, or Water-Type is using Crabhammer.
- 120 Attack + Adaptability means that switching into Crawdaunt is no easy feat, even for Pokemon that resist its moves. This is made even better thanks to Swords Dance.
- Access to Aqua Jet this Gen gives it a sweet Priority Move to work with.
- It's an utter badass of a Pokemon. I know that shouldn't count as a Pro, but Crawdaunt is a surefire powerhouse.

Cons:
- Its bulk sucks. 63/85/55 speaks for itself.
- 55 Speed makes Dragon Dance even more useless than on Mega Tyranitar.
- Water-Dark has multiple weakness and Pokemon that can sometimes switch into Crawdaunt, depending on the move used. Knock Off is a move nothing wants to come in on, though.
- Chesnaught is the true counter to Crawdaunt. Take that as you will.

Its cons are huge, sure, but Crawdaunt has enough power to make a home in the B rank. I'd want it higher had it not been for Azumarill, which is Crawdaunt's biggest competition. B is fine--I'd argue that B+ is a bit of a stretch.

Edit: I made it easier to read now. I made sure mistakes were fixed. This time, I was actually awake, so the incoming "Latios gets Ice Beam" comments can go away, TheyCallMeAdolf. The cancer is gone...mostly. There are still some things I'll never understand, but...hey. It might be why I don't post often anymore.
 
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Latios: A+


I personally enjoy using Latios, particularly the Choice Scarf set (thank you, Trick!), but the meta is not being nice enough for it to be S yet. Honestly, this partially comes down to me choosing which Hidden Power it will have (normally Ice, but I use Fire if the team kinda needs it), as it will always lose to something; could say that the problem is similar to how Keldeo functions. Without Fire, Ferrothorn will wall to no end. Without Ice (and in this case, Surf), Landorus-T can Knock Off or U-Turn for massive damage. This isn't mentioning Heatran, Tyranitar's Pursuit trapping, Jirachi's nasty ParaFlinch that makes Latios especially cry, Klefki, and without Trick, Chansey, which usually have a positive match-up against the male of the duo. I also want to ask if anybody is REALLY using Defog on it when Latias, to me at least, is superior in this regard thanks to being much more defensively oriented. There are enough threats to keep Latios from being S, but thanks to its usability, not necessarily its usage, A is too low, so A+ is the perfect home.
Latios gets ice beam so I have no idea why you would ever even consider running hp ice, and even ice beam is not a good coverage move on latios. You give landorus as an example of what it hits, which is completely and utterly obliterated by draco meteor. And yes, people use defog on latios: the extra bulk on latias is less useful than latios' extra damage, and literally the only reason to ever use latias over latios is for healing wish.

Anyways, I don't support latios for S rank. As henry said, nothing has changed for it, and the ubiquity of pursuit and steels really hurts it. Latios is an amazing mon as reflected by its usage, but I don't see why it deserves S; especially with shit like torn-t, t-tar, and hoopa getting more usage.
 
- I think Amoonguss should rise to B+. Azumarill and Keldeo are stopped pretty well by this. It's hard to find such a hard check to these pokemon, especially when you consider how susceptible stuff like Latis and Ferrothorn, respectively, are to a Superpower or an Icy Wind. Amoonguss also acts as good glue on Balance/Bulky Offense teams because of its good typing, great ability in Regenerator, access to utility moves such as Spore, and good natural bulk overall. It's also a great check to the likes of M-Diancie, non-non-NP Thundurus[electrics in general], M-Lopunny, and some more threats that are relevant in the metagame rn. Deserves a rise in my opinion. B+ pls

- I think Reymedy's post covered this pretty well. The weakness to SR is huge, and the archetype that it's supposed to put in work against, balance, usually carries solid checks in Ferrothorn, Jirachi, Clefable, M-Scizor, Lati twins, etc, and is pretty well covered on most well built balance. While the access to Roost does help its longevity, it gets worn down due to LO pretty quick and definitely does have some solid answers in general. Stay in A


Time for a nomination of my own:

- I think Jirachi deserves a rise to A+. Its SpDef set checks almost every Fairy-type threat in the tier very solidly, and acts as a very nice pivot in general. It's seeing some good usage on Offense these days because of its capabilities. PDC, for example, used this team in OLT:



The team is built around M-Gardevoir, Garchomp was added to take on users of priority attacks that Gardevoir is susceptible to. Azumarill and Breloom are further added to wallbreak, both of whom cave into Fairy-types. Scarf Jirachi is a perfect fit here as it gives the team a very nice answer to Fairy-types, and also forms a nice U-Turn core with Tornadus-T. Gaining momentum is a very nice idea for an offensive team. Jirachi also provides HW support for the team.

Next up is a good example of SpDef Jirachi on Offense. Here's a team that I built:



The team was built around Keldeo+ Charizard-X. ScarfTar was added to complement the duo, this only worsened the weakness to Fairy-types. Jirachi made perfect sense to add as it provided the team a solid answer to M-Diancie, M-Gardevoir, M-Altaria, and gave SR support. Also provided the team with some nice ability to gain momentum through U-Turn.

Finally, here's an example of Expert Belt Jirachi in action. Shows how versatile Jirachi is, boudouche used this in WCoP:



Good example of Lure Jirachi in action. Again, Keldeo+M-Manectric are weak to Fairy-types. Jirachi supports the two very well, lures in Heatran and Garchomp for Volcarona. Hippowdon and Landorus are lured in very well too, the surprise factor is very nice, and this worked really effectively in practice.

So yeah, that's why I think Jirachi should move up. Versatile, checks some very relevant threats in the tier, Serene Grace is a very nice ability to have, and is worthy of A+
 
Analytic, I'm just curious about the Jirachi nomination. While you have mentioned the numerous things that Jirachi can do, there hasn't exactly been anything new in the metagame that changes to make it more viable than before. Except for the rise in popularity in Scarf, the other things like Lure Rachi and SpD Rachi were still being used even before this. Why does it suddenly need to rise now?

1) SpD Jirachi: It does check Fairy-types pretty well and is a good pivot but apart from U-turn and Stealth Rock, how do you separate it from AV Metagross? Metagross has higher Special bulk thanks to AV and hits harder due to the investment in Atk so it is less passive.

2) Scarf Jirachi: This one has been gaining popularity probably because it can revenge Weavile, Torn-T and Mega Lopunny which have been more popular recently. However, it still suffers from the same issues as last time; it is relatively weak, has poor coverage and is Pursuit bait. Plus, it can only pick 2 of Heart Stamp, Fire Punch and U-turn (since Iron Head and Healing Wish are pretty much mandatory).

3) Lure Rachi: Again, Jirachi has always been able to do this. What trends changed to make it more viable than before?
 
Random Passerby
I think Jirachi's placement in the VR isn't fair to its capabilities, add in the fact that it's arguably a cut above most of the stuff in A Rank in terms of splashability, I think A+ is suitable for it. Here are my answers to your questions:

1) Stealth Rocks and U-Turn are huge. What separates it from AV Metagross is that it isn't just going to be a sitting duck once its done Pursuit-trapping. Jirachi can even provide Wish support, and HW support too.

2) Scarf Rachi is weak to Pursuit users, okay, ScarfTar is 1v1'd quite comfortably. AV Metagross doesn't OHKO with Pursuit on the switch out, Jirachi gets Fire Lunch regardless.

3) For one, the surprise factor is huge. Two, the offensive shift in the metagame is pretty helpful for it. You see these archetypes that rely on either Garchomp+Landorus, Azumarill+Landorus, and similar cores that blanket check threats to HO which are completely caught off guard by Expert Belt Jirachi. Paired with something like M-Lopunny or M-Manectric that appreciate its luring capabilities, makes for a good partner on offensive builds.

So yeah, I think the offensive metagame suits a lot because of its bluffing capabilities and yada yada. All this talk, give me a reason why it shouldn't go to A+.
 
just wanted to comment on some of the current discussion points and nominations made between now and the last update :p


while i was questioning some of the points made by a few people supporting keeping this thing in A+, i don't necessarily agree with it rising. henry and Vertex both did fantastic jobs of questioning this nom in the first place... what major changes have taken place to warrant a rise to S for latios? like vertex basically said, if latios goes to S, a few other things would have to go because the standards for S rank are changing a bit. things like keldeo, azumarill, and tornadus-t (this one is a bit different though) would all make more sense to rise. it isn't really an S rank nomination in the traditional sense, rather it's a nomination for the standards of S rank to change at this point.

both vertex and henry did a good job expanding on these points; i'm just vocally agreeing with them and supporting them a bit i guess :p


i put these two together because a lot of the points i'm gonna make apply to both. a non-mega bulky grass type (in the traditional sense so not ferro) is really useful in the current meta, and the prevalence of these probably had something to do with the manaphy drop. with so many teams packing an offensive water (keldeo, azumarill, manaphy mainly), having bulky grasses that can check these and more as well as providing some great general utility while not taking up a mega slot is great. regenerator is such a great ability for bulky pivots, and them having solid movepools makes them fantastic bulky pokemon. tangrowth has pretty respectable offenses and moves like leaf storm, knock off, earthquake, etc. to utilize them, and amoonguss gets nice utility like spore and clear smog. these are things we already knew, of course, but they help further support the fact that these things aren't purely non-mega alternatives to mega venusaur. Amoonguss & Tangrowth: B -> B+

there was a great discussion in the metagame discussion thread on the usefulness of water-immune pokemon on fatter teams (specifically stall) that can be found here. similarly to amoonguss and tangrowth, the ability to handle / pressure common offensive waters like keldeo and manaphy is a huge luxury for fatter builds. however, in my post in that thread (which you can find here), i focused on how manaphy can either muscle past gastrodon thanks to tail glow + a coverage move (in an optimal or average setting), how manaphy might be packing that coverage move, and how if neither of these are possible, a good team that carries a manaphy (or keld) should have something to beat these pokemon. nonetheless, the ability to pressure quite a few of the manaphy (and keldeo) sets that hurt fatter builds is super valuable. like i said with amoonguss and tangrowth above, "pressure" like this can be a factor in what caused manaphy to drop & what's keeping keldeo from rising, which could warrant a rise for gastrodon (and those grasses). Gastrodon: B -> B+


i know this nom was previously made, and i assume there's still ongoing discussion among the VR team about it, but i want to bring it up again (AM told me it was ok the other day). i already made a post on tornadus-t rising to S that can be found here, and while the post is a few weeks old now, everything i said there still stands, so i'm not going to repeat myself too much. instead, i want to start by focusing on a big argument made against tornadus-t rising: hurricane's 70% accuracy.

as i mentioned in my old post, the 70% accuracy isn't that big of a deal because you're clicking u-turn more anyways. fleggumfl had a post awhile back where he talked about the longevity of torn and how that's crazy with an offensive pokemon of it's caliber. tornadus-t having access to regenerator allows it to run life orb without caring about the recoil, and it makes up for torn-t's stealth rock weakness. normally with an offensive life orb pokemon (especially one weak to hazards), you can wear it down gradually, but that doesn't happen to torn-t thanks to regenerator. correlating with this is the use of u-turn: u-turn on tornadus-t not only allows you to deal damage while switching out, but it also heals you. i'm focusing on this to show how you're clicking u-turn so much that the hurricane accuracy doesn't even mean all that much... hurricane isn't tornadus-t's main move, u-turn is.

someone above (too lazy to look for the post) talked about another good point iirc: just the threat of being hit by the hurricane puts pressure on opposing pokemon. there aren't too many pokemon out there that like to switch in on torn, especially in comparison to other A+ pokemon, and even though hurricane has 70% accuracy, that doesn't mean it never hits. the threat of it hitting (which is more likely than missing obviously) can put so much pressure on switch-ins, especially when you factor in a 30% confusion chance.

continuing with the topic of switch-ins, tornadus-t simply doesn't have as many hard counters as other A+ rank pokemon. on offense, speedy electrics like raikou and manectric, scarf jirachi, and mega aerodactyl are all switch-ins to tornadus-t, but none of these have solid recovery, further supporting the point of how threatening hurricane is (even with it's accuracy). they'll all get whittled down soon enough, and going back to the points made about regenerator, tornadus-t can just switch out into a check to these things (all of which are rather easy to check, really), healing itself in the process. on fatter builds, the possible torn-t counters decrease in viabilty. other than rotom-w, you're looking at things like rotom-h, zapdos, goodra, mega ampharos, etc.. hippowdon can also be considered a solid check, but the mixed set isn't even that great of a counter to the life orb set, forcing you to run the usually less optimal SpD set.
180 SpA Life Orb Tornadus-T Hurricane vs. 252 HP / 112 SpD Hippowdon: 222-263 (52.8 - 62.6%) -- 99.6% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
all this stuff, torn-t's amazing movepool that allows for coverage to hit its counters, and its ability to fit on builds ranging from more offensive to fatter make for a pokemon that is undoubtedly S rank.
 

AM

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m00ns for what it's worth and to anybody else like I told bludz I'd hold off on any bigger nominations like Torn-T until SPL kind of gets going, seeing as how it'll be a good tell as to where stuff should fall ranking wise, or who knows maybe it won't. Point most of the B noms are ok. I liked Analytics Jirachi nom but A+ is really high to me, and if you've played against me you'll see I use it a lot on offense these days. Kind of hate how it loses to the same stuff and it doesnt necessarily break fatter mons even with the ebelt set. I guess you can argue the subtoxic set does that but even then the utility of its Scarf set is just way too good not to pass up. Granted I run more offense now a days as opposed to some wicked fat balance cause I'm not a big fan of getting 6-0d by hoopa-u so lol. It's a pretty neat mon but A+ is a big jump for Jirachi to me. It'd be fine in A to me though.

Unless asked not a whole lot for me to say right now. I agree with not raising Latios to S was sort of curious on peoples take on the matter but Henry summed it all up as well as others more or less, better or worse.

I'd be fine with Kyurem-B in A or A-, more so A- but not a strong opinion, just glad we're past the whole Kyurem-B to A+ nom cause lol sorry to whoever supported.
 

Giagantic

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Honestly, I am just going to say that in many ways Tornadus-T is definitely worthy of S rank, and while its reliance (at least in order to deal its greatest damage) on Hurricane is disappointing, the utility (being able to taunt) , coverage (heat wave, iron tail, etc) , scouting (AV ), disabling (knock off) can easily be said to make it worthy of S rank if you exclude the Hurricane aspect. I am honestly ambivalent towards whether it stays A+ or goes to S, and arguably based on your perspective (by this I mean the ways you use Torn-T, whether as a specially inclinced pivoting sponge or as a high damage pivot) as mentioned earlier.

Edit: Just saw AM's post... I am personally fine with waiting and dealing with the other elements of the meta.
 
This may seem like its coming out of nowhere, but I would ike to nominate dugtrio for C+ rank . I have always enjoyed using the Mega pidgeot +dugtrio core, but there are actually a lot of mons that benefit from dugtrio. Even just on its own, dugtrio can usually guarantee a kill and setup stealth rocks, which is a pretty nice thing going for it, everything else is just gravy. Pokemon like Tyranitar, bisharp, diancie, raikou,excadril, weavile, heatran, manectric, are some mons that dugtrio can either outspeed and OHKO or beat 1v1 with a sash. I dont know about you guys but eliminating some of these mons could be amazin for certain teams, and some of them he can just switch into and get a guaranteed kill, while others maybe require a volt-turn or double switch. Either way he brings a lot to a team in one slot, has cool utility moves like toxic, memnto, stealth rock, as well as decent attacking moves. His stats are sub par but I feel he does enough in one little package to warrant a raise.

I just had a game where my opponent had a heatran, ttar, and raikou all on the same team and dugtrio got 3 kills because of u-turn from victini(another great dugtrio partner) and mega pidgeot.
 
OK this will prob get quite a bit of flak (especially considering how many people I see are actually saying Clef is the only S mon) but Clefable to A+. There has been a large rise in usage of things like Jirachi and AV Metagross, both of which counter Clefable. Also, the meta is ever more prepared to break through Clefable, with SD Lando-T being a rather common set, as well as the meta in general trending against Clefable. Pokemon like Amoonguss and Gengar have also seen an increase in usage, leading to me thinking that Clefable is no longer the S rank behemoth that it used to be.
 
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Giagantic

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OK this will prob get quite a bit of flak (especially considering how many people I see are actually saying Clef is the only S mon) but Clefable to A+. There has been a large rise in usage of things like Jirachi and AV Metagross, both of which counter Clefable. Also, the meta is ever more prepared to break through Clefable, with SD Lando-T being a rather common set, as well as the meta in general tending against Clefable. Pokemon like Amoonguss and Gengar have also seen an increase in usage, leading to me thinking that Clefable is no longer the S rank behemoth that it used to be.
Honestly, I disagree with moving Clefable from S to A+ despite the popularity of many steels types + Gengar and Amoongus. Clefable is in my opinion firmly S rank due to a combination of reasons which are as follows:

1. Magic Guard: if there was a ranking of abilities this one would no doubt be among the kings, it provides status immunity (in regards to the DOT effect of toxic and burn), provides weather immunity, hazard immunity, leech seed immunity, Life orb recoil immunity

2. Movepool: The variety, both supportive and offensive within Clefables movepool lets it operate in multiple vastly differing roles depending on what you desire. From its selection of offensive moves such as ice beam, flamethrower, fire blast, moonblast, etc... to its access to soft-boil, moonlight, wish, thunder wave, and so on.

3. Unaware: Though less common then magic guard and in general inferior due to its restrictions, the fact that a clefable could potentially be running unaware is something that definitely is needed to be kept in mind when dealing with the pink freak.

4. Fairy typing: Lets face it Fairy typing is an excellent typing that gives it a great stab with moonblast and defensively decent mono type that lets it perform its role well.

All of these reasons make it, in my opinion the standard of what it means to be S, being able to operate by itself, yet aid the team, to be extrordinarily versatile and so on. The fact that Clefable can be purely support with heal bell and twave or run Calm mind to potentially sweep, to the fact that it can run an offensive Life Orb set that lures and does big damage is huge, Clefable is just such a great Pokemon that is exceedingly splash-able, provides not only in terms of itself but for its whole team.
 
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You guys are using Torn-T just for U-turning out all day? At this point why not use Mega Scizor? At least it hits much harder and has extreme mixed bulk. Sure, it lacks Regenerator, but Roost makes up for it to a certain degree.

Basically, what I'm trying to say is that at one point you will be forced to use Hurricane, which has not one, but three problems.

One: Hurricane's crap 70% accuracy. Basically, the reason you don't use it that much, and choose to just U-turn out until hell freezes over.

Two: Tornadus-T's obvious habit of U-turning. There's a huge risk of overprediction with Torn-T, especially in the earlygame when you U-turn out (especially against stuff like CB Azumarill) and let whatever switches in take a crapload of damage. If you risk Hurricane (for the 2HKO or something), and it misses, you often lose your Torn-T.

Three: HURRICANE DOES NOT HIT HARD ENOUGH. Especially in the case of AV variants, which can only OHKO Keldeo at best. I mean look at this:

160 SpA Tornadus-T Hurricane vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mega Charizard X: 169-201 (56.9 - 67.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

That can't ohko after rocks. Meaning Zard X can set up a DD and probably kill your team, or at least your Torn-T. There are also examples like Mega Alt, CM users (especially Clef - 160 SpA Tornadus-T Hurricane vs. 252 HP / 84+ SpD Clefable: 135-160 (34.2 - 40.6%) -- 53.5% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery or some Slowbro who can TWave your switch-in), Dragonite, etc.

Now, the LO set.

180 SpA Life Orb Tornadus-T Hurricane vs. 252 HP / 84+ SpD Clefable: 177-211 (44.9 - 53.5%) -- 1.2% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
180 SpA Life Orb Tornadus-T Hurricane vs. +1 252 HP / 84+ SpD Clefable: 121-142 (30.7 - 36%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Leftovers recovery

Clef still laughs at you. Still lacks enough power to reliably 2HKO Calm Miding Slowbro at full health. Now Zard X admittedly gets bopped after SR, but stuff like Altaria and Dragonite can still set up on you.

180 SpA Life Orb Tornadus-T Hurricane vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Mega Sableye: 175-207 (57.5 - 68%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Now this is a 2HKO b/c Sableye can't use leftovers, but if it Calm Minds as it mega evolves you get this:

180 SpA Life Orb Tornadus-T Hurricane vs. +1 252 HP / 0 SpD Mega Sableye: 117-138 (38.4 - 45.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

Yeah, your Torn-T is still setup fodder.

And all this is assuming Hurricane hits twice in a row, which only has a 49% chance of happening. Basically, flip a coin. Not only does Tornadus-T's Hurricane lack reliability, it also lacks oomph. It doesn't really hit that hard, LO or AV, as shown by the calcs above. Torn-T really attracts CM or DD sweepers and just invites them to set up if it kills something.

Tornadus-T is too risky to use to be S rank. Admittedly it's one of the top contenders of OU but S rank is honestly a stretch and if anything it's on the lower end of A+.

EDIT: One more thing, why do people use Iron Tail Torn-T? You shouldn't try to bother fucking with Tyranitar or Mega Aero because Iron Tail doesn't OHKO any of them, and AGAIN it has shitty accuracy like 75%. I guess Iron Tail hits Mega Gardevoir and CM Clefable harder... but again it's not reliable at stopping them especially the latter. If you want to hit Mega Diancie, just run HP Steel.

180 SpA Life Orb Tornadus-T Hidden Power Steel vs. 0 HP / 0- SpD Mega Diancie: 291-348 (120.7 - 144.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
 
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p2

Banned deucer.
ok, serious question to all people that dont think torn is s.

What do you do when faced against a Torn-T. Completely unrevealed as well. What do you do when you send Raikou and die to SR + Knock + Superpower? What do you do when you send your Steel type and it gets Superpowered or Roasted by Heat Wave? What do you do when you send your Hippowdon in and it gets Taunted and ripped apart by LO Hurricane / Grass Knot? What do you do when your Clefable gets taunted and also ripped apart by Hurricane?

See what I mean? All knee-jerk reactions to Torn-T literally get broken apart by its LO set or just chipped by knock +uturn+rocks. Even though hurricane has 70% accuracy, it forces you to play as if it would hit and you need to play around it completely unknowingly of its coverage options and its item. Unless its a last mon situation, you're not gonna DD with CharX on it, you're not gonna CM with Keld/Garde etc, you're not gonna setup CM with Sab, because the second you see that Hurricane hits, you'll see that your plan has completely backfired and you are now totally fucked all because you risked luck. I've also brought up the last mon argument where a 70% acc move misses, don't bother bringing this up because its not unique to Torn.
 
Gastrodon from B to B+: Agree. Gastrodon is one of the best set-up sweepers for defensive playstiles in OU and Shadow Tag ban is a big plus for it. Semi-stall builds has many ways to thread grass and flying/levitating mons, but either way Gastro could run Ice Beam over Scald if that becomes a problem someday (hits harder Gliscor and Lando meanwhile Heatran and Hippowdown are set-up folders anyway)

Suggesting to unrank Pangoro: Gothitelle is gone and OHKoing M-Sab doesn't seems good enough to justify a spot on VR imo. Sheer Force Conk has bigger coverage, better typing and STAB priority, so it's not useless vs offensive teams
 
Taunt? You mean that move AV Torn-T can't use? Because the LO variant lacks the special bulk to reliably check CM sweepers. Especially Clefable, since Moonblast 2HKOes with rocks up. And Hurricane can't 2HKO back, so Tornadus-T U-turning out on the 2nd turn is inevitable. Slowbro/Suicune is like the only CM sweeper Torn-T beats with relative ease, but even then Slowbro has Regenerator and can go for the burn. I'd also not use Grass Knot just to hit Hippowdon. I prefer having a consistent check/wallbreaker who can break through it, like Mega Garde, Azumarill or whatever pairs up well with Torn-T (almost anything but w/e). Superpower or Heat Wave hit more relevant targets that Torn-T can't really beat without U-turning out like crazy.

Imo there are too many things that Torn-T isn't, for it to reach S rank. It's not reliable, it's not that strong, and it's not that unpredictable.

Pangoro shouldn't be unranked btw. It's an excellent SD stallbreaker since very few Pokemon have the ability to OHKO Mega Sab, Skarm AND Chansey with ease once rocks are up. It also has Gunk Shot to punish Clefable and other fairies from revenge killing it. D rank is fine.
 
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eldes

Banned deucer.
from what am said clefable is pretty much the only s rank worthy mon by this point due to reasons that giagantic and am said for them
 
ok, serious question to all people that dont think torn is s.

What do you do when faced against a Torn-T. Completely unrevealed as well. What do you do when you send Raikou and die to SR + Knock + Superpower? What do you do when you send your Steel type and it gets Superpowered or Roasted by Heat Wave? What do you do when you send your Hippowdon in and it gets Taunted and ripped apart by LO Hurricane / Grass Knot? What do you do when your Clefable gets taunted and also ripped apart by Hurricane?

See what I mean? All knee-jerk reactions to Torn-T literally get broken apart by its LO set or just chipped by knock +uturn+rocks. Even though hurricane has 70% accuracy, it forces you to play as if it would hit and you need to play around it completely unknowingly of its coverage options and its item. Unless its a last mon situation, you're not gonna DD with CharX on it, you're not gonna CM with Keld/Garde etc, you're not gonna setup CM with Sab, because the second you see that Hurricane hits, you'll see that your plan has completely backfired and you are now totally fucked all because you risked luck. I've also brought up the last mon argument where a 70% acc move misses, don't bother bringing this up because its not unique to Torn.
How about scouting that last moveslot? Its pretty much always uturn, knock off, hurri so it can only have one of superpower, heatwave, taunt and whatever else you might wanna use. Finding out which one it is isnt that difficult and once you know things become alot easier. The LO reveals itself the first time it moves so no problem here.

And honestly, unless its threatening a very important mon with a ohko often enough you can/should just stay in and attack because you know the opponent is like "meh my stab move is shitty and misses all the time, i rather go for the save move which is uturn." Especially early game. And even if he does click that hurri and even if he does hit, as long as your not ohkoed you will do some damage back to torn and between LO damage, SR damage and the damage it takes from switching into attacks this thing dies alot faster than people here make it out to be, even more so because its taking a hell lot more damage from the things it wants to check like Keldeo for example without that assault vest.

Yes, LO Torn is difficult to switch in to in theory but in practise its alot easier because while you have to think "what happens if it hits" your opponent always has to think "what if i miss" and that affects his play alot, so much that he won't use the move even half as much as he would if it was reliable. He will go the save way most of the time and that solves most of the problems it might be able to cause in theory. And the rest of the time the 30% miss will help you out by giving free turns. I mean am i the only one here who finds it funny that the two most used arguments for torn to S are 1. "LO Hurri is dangerous" and 2. "You dont use hurri that much anyway so who cares about its accuracy?" To me thats a little contradicting. Not to mention that if i put a life orb on something its because i want to punch things in the face as hard as possible and not to just pick them a little and then run off aka uturn out. At the end of the day LO hurricane is just a huge bluff and you have to treat it accordingly.
 
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