Resource ORAS OU Viability Ranking Thread V5 (See Page 43 - Post #1063)

HailFall

my cancer is sun and my leo is moon
okay im not going to argue more after this but christ just because bandtar is around more now doesnt make lati bad. you can also pair lati with spikes and stuff pretty easily to wear down pursuit trappers and pull doubles when you need to. its not like lati is 100% invalidated by these. also i hope people can understand how absolutely absurd it is to even entertain the idea of lati and venu sharing a rank right now with how borderline unviable venu has become. you could argue venu for b i guess but honestly mlati isnt bad at all and even then i would advocate lati to stay in A-. Seriously like lati is in that rank because of pursuit trapping alone basically. it doesnt need to drop more. "ive never been swept by mlati" isnt a good argument for it to drop. Especially if this is from ladder where mlati is very rarely seen in the first place. Surf + psychic stab is its best coverage (dual stabs and boltbeam really suck ass on cm sets) and theres honestly not a lot it doesnt hit with that so idk why you say its coverage is lacking. basically the only reason you wouldnt want to run that is if you need lati to be able to revenge kill like manaphy or azu with tbolt. how on earth you can claim slowking of all things is better vs bandtar is beyond me tbh. people keep calling lati inconsistent but i dont see that at all. this is probably really disorganized and a little confusing but its just super annoying to see so many of these arguments that arent being fair to lati at all and/or are judging it based on mediocre sets.
 
Kyurem C- -> C
Funny, I was actually about to ask for that thing to rise.
M-Latias should always be running Surf and arguably CM, Psyshock / Surf / Roost / CM. If BandTar is the argument for M-Lati dropping with some literal dung mons then that isn't really good logic :/ and idk why people are acting like its strapped for moves when that set is all it needs. It has nothing to do with an "M-Lati Boner" that hype was trying to bump it to like A and it settled in A-.

If you're dropping M-Latias, drop all the megas in B+ down a rank to. It's much more consistent than all of them.
This. I think Boltbeam is a mediocre set at best, and Mega Latias should not be ranked based solely off of that. While having near-perfect neutral coverage is nice, Mega Latias loses out on STAB and the ability to hit BandTar and others (and Calm Mind if you're running TWave). Saying that MLati should drop because of BandTar is like saying that Bisharp should drop because of Keldeo. While BandTar's rise in usage isn't exactly great for MLati, it can easily have its teammates take care of it, usually weakening or KOing it. In conclusion, I don't think Mega Latias is a fantastic mega, but it's certainly better than just about all of the mons in B+ and shouldn't drop.
 
I don't get how were saying Mega latias'es Surf psyshock CM roost sets is so good like isnt it just a bad version of Mega CM slowbro which is rank B+ .Tbh when ever I've seen mega latias all I think is what a waste of a mega.

I get the point about just because T-tar is a thing doesn't mean it should go down but saying it the most consistent of them all is a load of crap imo like it does like the mon is so much worse if it facing T-tar like most of the time I switch my T-tar into it on a free switch from something like a Volt switch from rotom-w or I switch in on surf since it does like nothing any way press crunch because every one and there mum predicts pursuit and good bye Mega latias.

Like also in these so called game were it actually does something all it actually does it sponge hits it can't spread status like things like clefable if were talking about the surf psyshock set .It main selling point is walling electric types but the only really common one right now it rotom-w which is the electric type it hates the most since it can status it and get momentum of it with volt switch.

When this mon first raise iirc it was around when raikou and Mega Manectric where still popular. So TL;DR CM Mega bro > CM mega lati , the only consistent thing is that its consistently bad like it game impacted is massively lessen versus thing like Mega scizor or T-tar , does nothing with out much up cant it has nothing it does other then CM compared to other wall e.g lando-t rotom-w give momentum other wall status or set up rocks it just hit you with a weak attack and was originally hyped when thing like Mega mane and raikou were popular.

but that just my opinion.
 

Martin

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I actually thought I had re-read and deleted the entire contents of that post and rewritten it into something that actually argued semi-ok (not particularly well though) despite my tiredness before posting that and now that I've woken up after going to bed I see this old version in my alerts... did i fall asleep in my armchair and dream that or something wtf?! (If so my dreams are just sad...)

Anyway yeah my last post sucks and hasn't interpreted what I wanted to say about Lati properly so lemme try this again lmao

MLati has always been something which I have always kinda disliked on gut. I've never had difficulty beating it regardless of set considering that for every top-tier it walls it also gets heavily pressured by another (100% agree that Surf+Psy+Roost+CM is best set btw; I didn't particularly "like" BoltBeam as a set when it was popular as it was weak vs. too much despite the good coverage and I can see all of the flaws of dual STABs that make Surf+STAB better 'cause DPulse is ass) and I respect where you would use it over Mega Slowbro or other CMers (I'm looking over my post from last night and tbh I've not given Lati the credit it deserves in these respects mb). But the key point that always kinda irked me about it is that it really just kinda sits there until it can find a good opportunity to get up multiple CMs. The lack of utility moves that other bulky wincons like BU/BSD Talon and CM Clefable carry means that it can't really do anything other than sit in front of stuff if it's not got a CM up (meaning that it's not great if it's not in a position to win the entire game there and then), it's lack of moves like Scald which have high secondary effect activation rates means that it can't pressure that way pre-setup either. Granted this isn't the worst thing in the world because defensive CMers basically always had to do this pre-Scald if they wanted any form of coverage, but it just means it's irritatingly passive a lot of the time. On the flipside, something like Reuniclus has the higher base SpA and a much more powerful means of hitting Tyranitar that try to switch in on and trap it, and this means that it isn't heavily passive despite it's lack of utility options (I'd advocate for Colbur Reun here but the drop in consistency relative to Leftovers makes it niche and team specific at best, but yeah if ur team is rlly desparate to ease prediction vs. it this item exists too), and while Lati is definitely better than Reun as Reun's speed tier is bleh, it does highlight that it just comes from it kinda lacking power rather than it being an inherent flaw with CM+2 attacks 'mons.

In my humble opinion, Mega Latias is not as good as the stuff in A-. I think that everything there barring debatably Gliscor is outright better than Mega Latias. In addition, I can actually see arguments for most of the B+ megas dropping anyway (MVenu and MMan are piles of trash in a sand meta and there is no way in hell Venu is on the same level as Amoonguss; I can see arguments both for and against saying MGyara is an entire subrank better than it's base form too, although if it dropped it'd have to drag Kyu, Hippo, debatably Latias and debatably Mew with it) as well as the B megas both dropping further regardless of if this were to happen so the comparison to them isn't that big of a concern. TBH most of B+ is above Man and Venu anyway at least imo so it's not like it's hard to see it.

Ultimately I think that any Psychic-type CM user that can't pressure Tar is bad, which is why CM Surf Latias is it's best set (although being forced into a 50:50 between Crunch (OHKOs 25% of the time) and Pursuit still sucks (not that it's a true 50:50, as Crunch is almost always the better play if Tar is reasonably healthy considering that if it Crunches it is still going to deal disgusting damage to whatever comes in due to BandTar being disgustingly strong and hard for balanced/defensive teams to really handle), as Surf only barely 2HKOs after rocks at +1 anyway). However, a the question here is "do the merits of this set warrant it being as high as it is?" To this, my personal answer would have to be no; not because it is on the level of all of the current B+ megas, but rather because it is below the level of virtually everything in it's current rank.

Pick this apart however you see fit; I like being proven wrong and am sure there are holes in my argument. My current stance though mostly comes down to my gut saying that this thing is too high. Also once again sorry for the wall of text lol I really don't know how to stay stuff in short and it is something I really need to work on.
 
So.. This is gonna be a weird post, cause the mon in question is unheard of at the moment and i'm not an influent member nor good at explaining stuff, but I still would like to say that Staraptor could get a rise.

So, imo, Staraptor is a very threatening Pokemon to face. Idk if thats just me, but every time I come across these things I have so much trouble against it. The meta being so bulky-offense or stall oriented is in favor of Staraptor sitting at a very decent 100 speed tier, as this thing can outspeed a lot of relevant mons in the higher ranks or just force so much switches. Also the fact that this thing's most effective sets are Band and Scarf can make it really unpredictable, the time you realised that it is Banded your Landorus already took 60% of its health. It also has U-Turn for momentum since it forces those switches. Sadly, the nasty rocks are always on the field nowadays since spin and defog are rare and annoying to fit into teams and this is probably why Staraptor is so overlooked on top of its recoil damage, but thanks to its scary Fighting/Normal/Flying coverage I really think that its wallbreaking potential can come handy in the current meta. So yeah, defitively a pokemon that needs a crap load of support for sure but idk, I wanted to talk about it, to at least see what you guys think. Probably wont be a relevant post at all anyways, but yeah.
 
Teostra. It's not really unheard of. I've made a post a long time ago comparing Staraptor to its true competitor: Talonflame. The differences between the two are noticeable, worth noting, and are the reasonings as to why Staraptor cannot rise easily in this post.

To bring up to speed, Talonflame's utility, movepool, and ability to use more than two sets are what keeps it high and mighty. It immediately threatens multiple Pokemon, despite its checks being pretty prominent (Rotom-W, Tyranitar, and Heatran being the big three). On top of that, its best set would base itself around either Itemless Acrobatics or Leftovers/Sharp Beak Brave Bird, each with their own pros and cons, but Talonflame does have the ability to set up without relying on Recoil Moves, which ultimately hurts Staraptor; "To Die Young as Late as Possible" is perhaps the best quote to describe it, since its main moves have large recoil amounts. Talonflame can run a utility set up set consisting of Will-O-Wisp/Swords Dance/Roost/Acrobatics or Brave Bird, giving it answers to cripple switch-ins bar Heatran, though you can EASILY fool the opponent with a Choice Band set (as little as it does now) that acts as a semi-fast U-Turn user and Priority sweeper. Staraptor isn't as unpredictable as you make it out to be; Choice Band and Choice Scarf barely have any difference between the two and use, for the most part, the same moves, and will normally be prepared for indirectly. It also REALLY doesn't help having TankChomp and Ferrothorn, the two best Rocky Helmet users of the game, floating around like Politoed in BW, punishing Staraptor even more.

To put this in perspective, let's look at a likely scenario with TankChomp and Staraptor. Both sides will have Stealth Rock up, as is expected.

Staraptor will be left with 75% HP, or 234/311. The opponent switches into TankChomp on a Brave Bird. It DOES deal significant damage, though, 63.3 - 74.8%, but with that said, Staraptor will be taking 1/3 of the stat damage in recoil. Best case would leave it at 146/311, worst case 130/311. Now we have to calculate Rough Skin, which takes 12.5% away. In Staraptor's case, it will be 38, leaving it best case 108/311, worst case 92/311. Finally, Rocky Helmet will be calculated, which takes 16.66% away. This will be 51, leaving it best case 57/311, worst case 41/311.

Talonflame has a larger Stealth Rock weakness, sure, but it has the ability to Wisp, Taunt (I've seen some variants), or Roost right after since it's not locked into a move.

Looking at stats, Talonflame is actually faster AND has Priority, giving it the ability to spread EVs to other necessary stats like HP (see Bulky Swords Dance). Staraptor is forced to run 252/252 Atk/Spd and almost entirely forced to hold a Choice Item, limiting its usability.

In general, the match-up comparisons show that Talonflame, overall, has a sporting chance more so than Staraptor.

This, though, is just a comparison to its rival. What counts now are two questions:

1. Is it viable in the current state of the metagame?
2. How does it compare to those in the rank above?

In this metagame, Landorus-T, Garchomp, Ferrothorn, Excadrill, Heatran, Rotom-W, Clefable, Mega Scizor, Tyranitar, and the like are HUGE right now. Talonflame has a way around all but three of them thanks to access to Will-O-Wisp, being able to burn every one of the physical attackers listed. Staraptor struggles against Landorus-T due to Intimidate+Stone Edge, Garchomp due to Skin+Helmet, Excadrill due to Sand Rush, Rotom-W thanks to Will-O-Wisp and its resistance to Brave Bird, and Mega Scizor due to priority. Its main advantage is that it can hit Ferrothorn, Excadrill, and Tyranitar Super-Effectively with Close Combat, which most people will say holds back Final Gambit's capabilities, but I digress. In comparison to Talonflame, which CAN answer to the common switch-ins, Staraptor cannot, so that is out.

As far as what is in the ranking above, there isn't much in comparison. I'd argue that Entei, as a Physical Attacker, is MUCH harder to switch into thanks to the combination of Sacred Fire (that burn rate) and ExtremeSpeed, making up for forcing Adamant on a Base 100 (event, guys). Sacred Fire's burn chance makes even Landorus-T, Rotom-W, and Tyranitar scared of switching in. Feraligatr is a great Dragon Dance set-up sweeper thanks to Life Orb Sheer Force, letting it outspeed very well after a single boost. Hawlucha is pretty one-dimensional as well, but once Unburden kicks in, good luck. Seismitoad has loads of utility outside of it being Physical. Toxicroak can switch into attacks thanks to Dry Skin. Finally, Mega Tyranitar also has Dragon Dance to boost it well, with deadly STAB combinations and access to Earthquake and Fire Punch (I tried it once...don't judge me). Hell, as a Flying-Type, Mega Pidgeot is scarier to switch into thanks to Hurricane's 30% confusion chance, as well as having Heat Wave and U-Turn for utility.

I love Staraptor, and I love its sheer power it brings to the table, but I don't think it's suited for this metagame at all. It requires too much support to fully utilize, like Tyrantrum (which I also love), is one dimensional like Magneton, and cannot utilize its movepool efficiently outside of "just hit it" like Talonflame can. I'm against a rise, but that's just me.
 
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Srn

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Teostra. It's not really unheard of. I've made a post a long time ago comparing Staraptor to its true competitor: Talonflame. The differences between the two are noticeable, worth noting, and are the reasonings as to why Staraptor cannot rise easily in this post.

To bring up to speed, Talonflame's utility, movepool, and ability to use more than two sets are what keeps it high and mighty. It immediately threatens multiple Pokemon, despite its checks being pretty prominent (Rotom-W, Tyranitar, and Heatran being the big three). On top of that, its best set would base itself around either Itemless Acrobatics or Leftovers/Sharp Beak Brave Bird, each with their own pros and cons, but Talonflame does have the ability to set up without relying on Recoil Moves, which ultimately hurts Staraptor; "To Die Young as Late as Possible" is perhaps the best quote to describe it, since its main moves have large recoil amounts. Talonflame can run a utility set up set consisting of Will-O-Wisp/Swords Dance/Roost/Acrobatics or Brave Bird, giving it answers to cripple switch-ins bar Heatran, though you can EASILY fool the opponent with a Choice Band set (as little as it does now) that acts as a semi-fast U-Turn user and Priority sweeper. Staraptor isn't as unpredictable as you make it out to be; Choice Band and Choice Scarf barely have any difference between the two and use, for the most part, the same moves, and will normally be prepared for indirectly. It also REALLY doesn't help having TankChomp and Ferrothorn, the two best Rocky Helmet users of the game, floating around like Politoed in BW, punishing Staraptor even more.

To put this in perspective, let's look at a likely scenario with TankChomp and Staraptor. Both sides will have Stealth Rock up, as is expected.

Staraptor will be left with 75% HP, or 234/311. The opponent switches into TankChomp on a Brave Bird. It DOES deal significant damage, though, 63.3 - 74.8%, but with that said, Staraptor will be taking 1/3 of the stat damage in recoil. Best case would leave it at 146/311, worst case 130/311. Now we have to calculate Rough Skin, which takes 12.5% away. In Staraptor's case, it will be 38, leaving it best case 108/311, worst case 92/311. Finally, Rocky Helmet will be calculated, which takes 16.66% away. This will be 51, leaving it best case 57/311, worst case 41/311.

Talonflame has a larger Stealth Rock weakness, sure, but it has the ability to Wisp, Taunt (I've seen some variants), or Roost right after since it's not locked into a move.

Looking at stats, Talonflame is actually faster AND has Priority, giving it the ability to spread EVs to other necessary stats like HP (see Bulky Swords Dance). Staraptor is forced to run 252/252 Atk/Spd and almost entirely forced to hold a Choice Item, limiting its usability.

In general, the match-up comparisons show that Talonflame, overall, has a sporting chance more so than Staraptor.

This, though, is just a comparison to its rival. What counts now are two questions:

1. Is it viable in the current state of the metagame?
2. How does it compare to those in the rank above?

In this metagame, Landorus-T, Garchomp, Ferrothorn, Excadrill, Heatran, Rotom-W, Clefable, Mega Scizor, Tyranitar, and the like are HUGE right now. Talonflame has a way around all but three of them thanks to access to Will-O-Wisp, being able to burn every one of the physical attackers listed. Staraptor struggles against Landorus-T due to Earthquake, Garchomp due to Skin+Helmet, Excadrill due to Sand Rush, Rotom-W thanks to Will-O-Wisp and its resistance to Brave Bird, and Mega Scizor due to priority. Its main advantage is that it can hit Ferrothorn, Excadrill, and Tyranitar Super-Effectively with Close Combat, which most people will say holds back Final Gambit's capabilities, but I digress. In comparison to Talonflame, which CAN answer to the common switch-ins, Staraptor cannot, so that is out.

As far as what is in the ranking above, there isn't much in comparison. I'd argue that Entei, as a Physical Attacker, is MUCH harder to switch into thanks to the combination of Sacred Fire (that burn rate) and ExtremeSpeed, making up for forcing Adamant on a Base 100 (event, guys). Sacred Fire's burn chance makes even Landorus-T, Rotom-W, and Tyranitar scared of switching in. Feraligatr is a great Dragon Dance set-up sweeper thanks to Life Orb Sheer Force, letting it outspeed very well after a single boost. Hawlucha is pretty one-dimensional as well, but once Unburden kicks in, good luck. Seismitoad has loads of utility outside of it being Physical. Toxicroak can switch into attacks thanks to Dry Skin. Finally, Mega Tyranitar also has Dragon Dance to boost it well, with deadly STAB combinations and access to Earthquake and Fire Punch (I tried it once...don't judge me). Hell, as a Flying-Type, Mega Pidgeot is scarier to switch into thanks to Hurricane's 30% confusion chance, as well as having Heat Wave and U-Turn for utility.

I love Staraptor, and I love its sheer power it brings to the table, but I don't think it's suited for this metagame at all. It requires too much support to fully utilize, like Tyrantrum (which I also love), is one dimensional like Magneton, and cannot utilize its movepool efficiently outside of "just hit it" like Talonflame can. I'm against a rise, but that's just me.
You're mostly correct in how talon is better than staraptor, but I think you're very wrong in some other comparisons, mostly here:
In this metagame, Landorus-T, Garchomp, Ferrothorn, Excadrill, Heatran, Rotom-W, Clefable, Mega Scizor, Tyranitar, and the like are HUGE right now. Talonflame has a way around all but three of them thanks to access to Will-O-Wisp, being able to burn every one of the physical attackers listed. Staraptor struggles against Landorus-T due to Earthquake, Garchomp due to Skin+Helmet, Excadrill due to Sand Rush, Rotom-W thanks to Will-O-Wisp and its resistance to Brave Bird, and Mega Scizor due to priority. Its main advantage is that it can hit Ferrothorn, Excadrill, and Tyranitar Super-Effectively with Close Combat, which most people will say holds back Final Gambit's capabilities, but I digress. In comparison to Talonflame, which CAN answer to the common switch-ins, Staraptor cannot, so that is out.
How does staraptor struggle with Lando-t due to earthquake (???) any more than talon does? How does it struggle with exca due to sand rush or rotom-w due to wisp+resistances to brave bird any more than talon does? Hitting ferro, exca, and ttar with coverage hardly even means anything when you can burn them anyway, but I fail to see how raptor struggles with lando-t, bulkychomp, rotom-w or the like any more than talon. As a wallbreaker, in fact, Raptor blasts past all of those easily. Lando-t, Garchomp, Ferrothorn, Exca, Heatran, rotom-w, clefable, mzor, and tyranitar all pose little problem to cb raptor 1v1.
You definitely make your point clear vs bulky chomp that staraptor does not last long, 1) neither do a lot of other contact physical attackers, especially those using recoil moves and 2) As long as it kills bulky chomp, it doesn't really matter whether it's alive or not, it did its job.
You could argue that as long as you have enough health to survive recoil, it barely even matters how healthy you are. A mega medicham at 100% and a mega medicham at 80% are hardly different because both are still getting kills where they should and both aren't designed to take hits in the first place. Yes, a staraptor survives for maybe 4 turns at best in a battle, but if it does its job and breaks down flying checks, who cares?

Additionally, I'm glad you brought up rotom-w, because that's what separates staraptor from other (and mostly better) flying wallbreakers like mega pinsir: Normal STAB.
A stab double-edge from adamant scarf does 55% min even to rotom-w; choice band has a good shot to OHKO after rocks. No other bird can boast such immediate damage on electric types; and that's the only reason you'd bother with it. Purely as a physical attacker, it doesn't bring anything less than the stuff in the ranking above. Obviously you start to look at defensive utility, speed, versatility, literally anything else, it falls behind quite a bit

Bird-spam is not something i'm a huge fan of in general, especially with defensive lando-t and rotom-w being thrown onto teams at whim just to pivot in popular wallbreakers. Metagame trends don't support it in any way; Staraptor is not due for a rise but I wanted to clear up some misconceptions about it.
 
There was a nom for Mega Heracross to move from A- to A not too long ago, but it doesn't seemed to have gained much traction. I wholeheartedly agree with this nomination. Heracross has been very good for awhile now and the ladder seems to be finally catching on to this fact. Basically any team other than hyper offense is going to struggle mightily with Hera. It either heavily pressures or outright destroys nearly every physical/mixed wall or tank in the entire metagame, including defensive beasts like Hippowdon and Skarmory. In this respect it's comparable to Mega-Medicham, but unlike Medicham Hera offers notable defensive utility, including useful resistances to dark and ground as well as enough bulk to take all but the most powerful neutral attacks without much difficulty. In my opinion it's a top 5 Mega right now, but even if you're not willing to grant me that can we at least acknowledge that it is a step above other A- megas like Latias, Alakazam, and Pinsir?
 

HailFall

my cancer is sun and my leo is moon
I guess ill put my two cents in here now. So many waters in these discussion points *.*

+
B -> B-: Agree

Yep. Rain might be an incredibly annoying matchup for certain teams but rotom-w is more common than ever and certain pokemon like amoonguss, slowking, and suicune being fairly common really hurts its viability. Even in its better matchups its not impossible to play around by pivoting between stuff like latios and heatran. Rain really hasnt been particularly relevant or viable in ou for a while now so theres not a ton to say.

B -> B+: Agree
Crawdaunt is broken lmao like its ridiculously easy to use and it 2hkoes like everything with any form of recovery but a few mediocre mons like mega altaria and chesnaught and is incredibly threatening with volt turn support backing it up. Even supposed counters like keldeo and breloom take ridiculous amounts from its stabs and also hate losing their item. The CB set is fucking absurd lol this should definitely rise especially considering a lot of the things that checked most sets before like mega alt are super uncommon and fairly unviable (i think special mega altaria is pretty good honestly right now though but thats a whole different discussion). Crabhammer is retarded you can click it and know youll be denting anything that comes in even if its resisted AND it has the high crit chance making it even more ridiculous. But yeah it snacks on plenty of BO staples and is just a massive threat in the current metagame. A rise is warranted.

A- -> B+: Disagree
Definitely not. Not going to elaborate further because ive already made posts defending it and id rather not reignite that argument but yeah.

B- -> B: On the fence, leaning agree
Momo is a mon i really like and its definitely pretty solid. It does wall like everything and p2 made a pretty solid argument backing a rise but im somewhat concerned that its a bit too passive to be a good pick on most teams. Its pretty reliant on scald burns and toxic to prevent itself from being total setup bait as well which is pretty unappealing. Also if it gets burned by scald or something its no longer a reliable check to keldeo and a whole slew of other stuff. Besides that, i agree with it rising; the passivity just really bothers me.
 
I know this seems a bit against the general opinion, but I believe Suicune should drop to B. Sure, the CM + Roar set is decently effective at 6-0ing opposing balance teams but I feel like it's too easy to overwhelm in this current meta, especially with Specs Tangrowth getting decent usage (and Tangrowth itself rising), Amoonguss getting higher usage, especially since it gets a move that screws up CM + Roar shenanigans in Clear Smog, Mega Medicham and SD Weavile just hitting too damn hard and leaving it into the KO range of a lot of mons that it's supposed to check/set up on, CB Crawdaunt rising in popularity and dealing 60% to it, Mega Hera 2HKOing it most of the time and so on. It also tends to lose many last Pokemon situations against the likes of CM Mega Latias/Slowbro/Reuniclus. Overall, Suicune isn't really that great imo, but that's just me.
 

MrAldo

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Nah, Suicune is easily B+ rank and could be A- but I haven't been convinced of that yet. CM + Roar is a massive advantage over other calm mind users cause on the mid-game there is no way of winning a calm mind war against it, and all these physical hard hitters really fear the scald burn, while electrics getting less common nowadays and grass types being easy to cover make Suicune pretty good. Being such a passive Pokemon, especially during rest turns cause the tendency is to not run rest talk is definitely a cons, but its pros really outweight them, it is a really reliable wincon and if you have a +0 suicune you definitely did something wrong here.

Crawdaunt is a monster, SD and banded sets are fearsome, require zero prediction and complement a lot of offensive Pokemon extremely well. This Pokemon fluctuates a lot in viability but right now it is really good, easy B+ here.

This slate is looking like Hoenn, too much water in here :v
 
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AM

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Most of the slates been covered by others like Aldo, I still think Suicune should be A- (Vincune as some of my pals call it, the set posted in wcop sets by Vinc is super good) but some of the B+ are starting to look a bit more legit so for now it's fine. Speaking of something that "sucks the dick" can we drop Klefki down to? It doesn't feel like a check to anything anymore and it feels like such a weak steel slot. It's rare that it ever provides useful speed control and its difficult as is for it to keep its own spikes on the field. The fact that its a steel that doesnt pose a single real threat to the likes of Clefable is also just sad and Klefkis utility in para usually isn't enough to prevent the majority of good set up sweepers in the tier. As a utility mon I think it's pretty sub-par idk it's kind of hard to explain without stating the obvious cause it was probably due for a drop for awhile now and was never considered.

I think Hippowdon is too high in B+ personally and I still don't know why it rose up in the first place.

Chesnaught is all sorts of poop and should be D if not just unranked but the lower ranks are kind of sloppy and trivial so don't really care too much about a debate on it, like how Cofa, Cobalion, and Staraptor are legit C- mons (with Cobalion being stupidly low wth).

Edit: Gliscor could probably drop to.
 

MegaStarUniverse

Banned deucer.
Everyone knows im the M-Latias guy and i have to say not to drop it.

M-Latias may not be that good in the offensive role but having defensive roles such as taking water moves and checking some very dangerous pokemon in the Metagame such as Keldeo, Kyurem-B , Terrakion, Breloom, Charizard Y etc while still having offensive presence is still amazing in my opinion and nothing to laugh at.

i been using a set of CM , Surf , Draco, and Roost and i wanna say its the best set since it can clean late game and has amazing coverage since the only things that resist it is Azumarill and Ferrothorn in this meta. but showing replays might explain what im talking about.

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-415821784 - M-Latias Gets a Surf off on Heatran taking it to 50% then gets damage off on Torn-T then later it CM's up and kills Tangrowth and finish's off Heatran while still taking a toxic from Heatran and switching into Rotom-W.

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-ou-179365 - M-Latias switchs into slowbro takes a scald and after his Tyranitar and M-Heracross went down my M-Laitas basically just won. as i was just scouting for Scarf Kyurem but he was specs all along.

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-ou-173977 - even M-Latias's ability to switch into and Destroy some rain teams is scary.



M-Latias is not meant to just punch holes in stuff. Its supposed to be able to switch into stuff and take hits while checking threats and chip away at the other opponents team. please keep M-Latias at A-
 
Don't get me wrong but these replays aren't good show of Latias.

first replay - Latias didn't come and wall anything but rotom. Just exacly what normal latias would do. It didn't grab any special kill either.

secod replay - Well, Latias came in first sime in battle when slowbro have benn already poisioned, ttrar and heracross dead. You already had huge advantage before latios even did anything and after it came in only thing it did was killing 20ish skarm and take hp ice from raioku. Not very impressive. Regular latias could do same thing.

third replay - only one which latias did something, well basically won match. You saw opportunity to set up and take that, very nice play. However I doubt it would do so well against other rain teams. Most rain teams are HO which pressures teams very hard and they try to don't give opportunity to set up.
 

MegaStarUniverse

Banned deucer.
"Latias didn't come and wall anything but rotom. Just exacly what normal latias would do. It didn't grab any special kill either."

You need to watch that whole replay again then if you think M-latias just came in on Rotom-W. it Killed Both Heatran and Tangrowth while still being toxic'ed by Heatran and switching in on Rotom-W which shows why its defensive roles and Offensive roles are nice.

"Well, Latias came in first sime in battle when slowbro have benn already poisioned, ttrar and heracross dead. You already had huge advantage before latios even did anything and after it came in only thing it did was killing 20ish skarm and take hp ice from raioku. Not very impressive."

First of all i don't think you get my point. after M-heracross and Tyranitar went down my M-latias could solo the rest of his team. killing skarmory and taking a HP ice from raikou is a big deal because it shows with little support that M-Latias can late game clean. Please just stop.

"only one which latias did something, well basically won match. You saw opportunity to set up and take that, very nice play. However I doubt it would do so well against other rain teams. Most rain teams are scary HO which pressures teams very hard and they try to don't give opportunity to set up."

im not saying it can just Solo all rain teams im saying the coverage of Surf + Draco is dangerous on a defensive pokemon like M-latias and it can be a great win con VS certain teams. Not all teams

Im not saying M-Latias is very good or anything all im saying is it belongs in A- for its ability to

1. check threats

2. take hits

3. chip away at the other opponents team.

4. late game clean if possible.
 
"Latias didn't come and wall anything but rotom. Just exacly what normal latias would do. It didn't grab any special kill either."

You need to watch that whole replay again then if you think M-latias just came in on Rotom-W. it Killed Both Heatran and Tangrowth while still being toxic'ed by Heatran and switching in on Rotom-W which shows why its defensive roles and Offensive roles are nice.

"Well, Latias came in first sime in battle when slowbro have benn already poisioned, ttrar and heracross dead. You already had huge advantage before latios even did anything and after it came in only thing it did was killing 20ish skarm and take hp ice from raioku. Not very impressive."

First of all i don't think you get my point. after M-heracross and Tyranitar went down my M-latias could solo the rest of his team. killing skarmory and taking a HP ice from raikou is a big deal because it shows with little support that M-Latias can late game clean. Please just stop.

"only one which latias did something, well basically won match. You saw opportunity to set up and take that, very nice play. However I doubt it would do so well against other rain teams. Most rain teams are scary HO which pressures teams very hard and they try to don't give opportunity to set up."

im not saying it can just Solo all rain teams im saying the coverage of Surf + Draco is dangerous on a defensive pokemon like M-latias and it can be a great win con VS certain teams. Not all teams

Im not saying M-Latias is very good or anything all im saying is it belongs in A- for its ability to

1. check threats

2. take hits

3. chip away at the other opponents team.

4. late game clean if possible.
I watched whole first reply and kill on defensive tangrowth and probably some heatran sack I guess is not impresive.

I get your point, but you have to ask yourself a question: How much better mega latias did in these replays than regular latias? In first two replays: they would do same.

The oppurtunity cost of mega stone is what I feel biggest drawback of Mega Latias.
 

MegaStarUniverse

Banned deucer.
I watched whole first reply and kill on defensive tangrowth and probably some heatran sack I guess is not impresive.

I get your point, but you have to ask yourself a question: How much better mega latias did in these replays than regular latias? In first two replays: they would do same.

The oppurtunity cost of mega stone is what I feel biggest drawback of Mega Latias.

The Bulk on M-Latias and ability to set up and take hits better then Normal latias while still being a win con is something good. Latios gets off damage and comes in on its checks and Latias chips the other team while coming in on its checks better then latios but can they both say " I am bulky enough to stay in on Scarf Tyranitar and Roost"? " I can take repeated hits from Charizard Y and Keldeo"? " I can take hits from threats and still CM clean game sweep while taking status"?

I understand what your saying seth but M-Latias has a niche which is good enough to keep it in A-
 
I don't understand why would you use Surf + Psyshock M-Latias when M-Slowbro exists and for some reason is lower...? Or you can just use regular Latias.

M-Latias should drop, I never really thought it was great in the first place with how common Tyranitar and Weavile are (Mega Slowbro can beat both of them unless Weavile has SD) and the fact that some things it's supposed to check can overwhelm it (Lando-T).
 

Indigo Plateau

is a Community Leaderis a Top Tiering Contributoris a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Past SCL Champion
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I don't understand why would you use Surf + Psyshock M-Latias when M-Slowbro exists and for some reason is lower...? Or you can just use regular Latias.

M-Latias should drop, I never really thought it was great in the first place with how common Tyranitar and Weavile are (Mega Slowbro can beat both of them unless Weavile has SD) and the fact that some things it's supposed to check can overwhelm it (Lando-T).
Not sure how Mega Bro beats Ttar as you get 2hkod by banded crunch even with the 252/232+ physdef set. I'm also not sure how Lando-T overwhelms it as the SD set can't touch it, you roost on scarf u-turn to scout, and defensive will die to surf.

They each have their pros and cons, but MLati sits at 110 speed which lets it check/revenge kill many slower threats (Keld, dragons, Tran, etc) and speed tie with stuff like Lati and Diancie. This also means you don't get completely shut down by Taunt from stallbreakers. More immediate firepower as you also hit as hard as LO Latios at +1 already.

MLati has levitate, granting it one more immunity, can check electrics such as Thundy (with the rest declining in usage but mixed thundy is a beast), and grasses have become more common. Defensively Suicune's typing is better than MBro (psychic is ass) which I always end up using over it either way.

To some previous posts before, you also can't just "use regular Latias" in all the same scenarios as MLati lol. The only reason why you'd use Latias > Latios in the first place is healing wish and thr bulk doesn't compare.

I also posted something before about MLati but it go no attention lol. It's ridiculously bulky, being able to set up on Diancie at +1 (CM on the switch), and can also live a Draco from Latios, roost, and also set up on it lol. Disappointed it got no attention and now the MLati discussion is being stirred up again.

It's hard to just explain as I feel you have to use both to understand - I just feel like every time I use Mbro it underperforms and needs more support than MLati does. It's better on paper or you can just use Suicune / regular Bro.
 
To some previous posts before, you also can't just "use regular Latias" in all the same scenarios as MLati lol. The only reason why you'd use Latias > Latios in the first place is healing wish and thr bulk doesn't compare.

I also posted something before about MLati but it go no attention lol. It's ridiculously bulky, being able to set up on Diancie at +1 (CM on the switch), and can also live a Draco from Latios, roost, and also set up on it lol. Disappointed it got no attention and now the MLati discussion is being stirred up again.
Not really, Latias is only example. I don't really see what Mega Latias checks what regular Latias or Latios can't. They check similar things and have similar counters. You are spending mega stone on something that that in many matchups do same as something without mega stone, so no wonders that not many people decided to use that thing.

And I don't think that catching twave is good way of checking thundurus. It can check mixed but twave and nasty plot are harsh to deal with it, +2 hp ice deals ton.

252 SpA Mega Diancie Moonblast vs. +1 248 HP / 0 SpD Mega Latias: 170-204 (46.8 - 56.1%) -- 75.4% chance to 2HKO

Um... That's very, very shaky set up folder, even with free CM. They have to be hp fire/you have to win speed tie or roost stall to get low rolls which multiples chance of getting crit.

EDIT: Just realized that CM/Surf/Psyshock can't even check something like Garchomp, Dragonite.
 
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Excuse me I don't mean to be rude and I certainly don't ever ever come here unless I'm looking through the rankings but, may I nominate Dugtrio from C to C+?

I've been using Dugtrio with the move Screech to counter targets which otherwise were only successful through the use of Shadow Tag Gothitelle, targets like Chansey. After testing this for quite a while now I've come up with the conclusion that yes, it actually does work and I do have a few replays to support the reason. So, why Screech Dugtrio? Well, think of it as a temporary Swords Dance boost that only applies to its victims. Hone Claws isn't strong enough and you most certainly will not be sweeping with Dugtrio EVER (Don't be that Durant guy). Ok so it's strong. Can I give a good example of a situation where a Dugtrio would find it useful? Yes, one situation could be: Screech Dugtrio vs Toxic Chansey. Even though Dugtrios tend to run 201 HP for Reversal's 200 base power after taking two Seismic Toss's, there are a percentage of Chanseys that do infact use Toxic to deal with many threats which ironically puts Dugtrios strategy out of wack. With Screech it guarantees the power Dugtrio needs to kill its threats without having to rely so much on Reversal. The amount of damage that a Dugtrio at neutral can do to a -2Def Chansey and the damage that a +2Atk Dugtrio can do to a neutral Chansey are nearly the same.
+2 252 Atk Dugtrio Earthquake vs. 4 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 313-369 (48.7 - 57.4%) -- 94.5% chance to 2HKO
252 Atk Dugtrio Earthquake vs. -2 4 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 316-373 (49.2 - 58%) -- 98% chance to 2HKO
Wow. So it's actually stronger than Swords Dance.

Long story short I'm just not a forum type of dude I'm sorry. I really do not want to explain how good it is or how it's the closest comparison to a Choice Scarf Shadow Tag Gothitelle. If nobody minds I'm posting these replays and hopefully you'll understand. I am aware that only a handful of teams can truly appreciate Dugtrio to the fullest, teams of hazard control specifically but if your only concern is getting Dugtrio in safely I guess you can use an eject button or just wait for Wimpod to be released, I don't know. What do you guys think? Would you consider using it? Does your team support it? Also my team is just straight garbage, don't pay attention to it so much. Just focus on the Dugtrio if you're watching these replays. Thanks for reading. ✌

Dugtrio vs Toxic Chansey http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-347742109
Dugtrio just raw power http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-388929756
Dugtrio supported with Eject Button Holder http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-414073746
Dugtrio takes out 3 Mons respectively http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-412196052
Dugtrio predicting a switch http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-410637840 (This one's a bit irrelevant but I felt the need to add it just to demonstrate that you can use Screech predicting a switch.)
 
I don't understand why would you use Surf + Psyshock M-Latias when M-Slowbro exists and for some reason is lower...? Or you can just use regular Latias.

M-Latias should drop, I never really thought it was great in the first place with how common Tyranitar and Weavile are (Mega Slowbro can beat both of them unless Weavile has SD) and the fact that some things it's supposed to check can overwhelm it (Lando-T).
Regular Latias is pretty much garbage if it is not running Defog + Healing Wish; that has been established for months. I cannot give you a M-Latias to M-Slowbro comparison but I always got the impression from high level players that Mega Slowbro was always overhyped. This type of question is something you should ask a member of the VR council, as they would know why Mega Latias is currently a rank above Mega Slowbro. Also, as somebody stated before, Mega Slowbro is 2HKOd by Choice Band Tyranitar's Crunch, so it really does not check Ttar at all.
 
Not sure how Mega Bro beats Ttar as you get 2hkod by banded crunch even with the 252/232+ physdef set. I'm also not sure how Lando-T overwhelms it as the SD set can't touch it, you roost on scarf u-turn to scout, and defensive will die to surf.

They each have their pros and cons, but MLati sits at 110 speed which lets it check/revenge kill many slower threats (Keld, dragons, Tran, etc) and speed tie with stuff like Lati and Diancie. This also means you don't get completely shut down by Taunt from stallbreakers. More immediate firepower as you also hit as hard as LO Latios at +1 already.

MLati has levitate, granting it one more immunity, can check electrics such as Thundy (with the rest declining in usage but mixed thundy is a beast), and grasses have become more common. Defensively Suicune's typing is better than MBro (psychic is ass) which I always end up using over it either way.

To some previous posts before, you also can't just "use regular Latias" in all the same scenarios as MLati lol. The only reason why you'd use Latias > Latios in the first place is healing wish and thr bulk doesn't compare.

I also posted something before about MLati but it go no attention lol. It's ridiculously bulky, being able to set up on Diancie at +1 (CM on the switch), and can also live a Draco from Latios, roost, and also set up on it lol. Disappointed it got no attention and now the MLati discussion is being stirred up again.

It's hard to just explain as I feel you have to use both to understand - I just feel like every time I use Mbro it underperforms and needs more support than MLati does. It's better on paper or you can just use Suicune / regular Bro.
ummm idk I thought it'd survive the 2HKO, but looks like I overrated MegaBro's bulk a little bit. It still gets a CM boost on Stone Edge or Pursuit, though, so there's that.

Meanwhile, Lando-T vs M-Latias:

+2 252+ Atk Landorus-T Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Mega Latias: 221-260 (60.7 - 71.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252+ Atk Landorus-T Stone Edge vs. 248 HP / 68 Def Mega Latias: 209-246 (57.5 - 67.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252+ Atk Landorus-T Knock Off vs. 248 HP / 68 Def Mega Latias: 272-322 (74.9 - 88.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Landorus-T Stone Edge vs. 248 HP / 68 Def Mega Latias: 272-320 (74.9 - 88.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Landorus-T Knock Off vs. 248 HP / 68 Def Mega Latias: 354-419 (97.5 - 115.4%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO

With SR up and the fact that Latias tends to not be at 100% anyway, Lando-T can force its way through it, especially since with LO +2 Knock Off actually OHKOes it most of the time. And Surf doesn't OHKO back.
 

HailFall

my cancer is sun and my leo is moon
Okay i have zero clue how anyone in their right mind can compare mbro to mlati but they are entirely different mons and they dont even play that similarly so???? DownAbove did a good job of explaining why they are different (not that that should be something that has to be explained). SD lando isnt setting up on mlati at all it just dies to surf and if mlati is actually your lando check theres something seriously wrong with your team. Both are entirely different mons used to check different things and it makes no sense to compare them

Regular latias doesnt have anywhere near as much physical bulk as mega and it cant escape hits like scarf ttars pursuit without fainting. The additional special bulk lets it take all the standard hits much more comfortably while setting up, check life orb torn-t, and switch into thundurus. Mega Latias also has more power than standard form. Its a superior setup mon in every imaginable way to standard latias except that it takes up a mega slot.
 
I imagine Mega Latias is ranked higher than Mega Bro because of its lack of linearity in sets, amongst other things, which I'll detail later. Mega Bro has one (really bad) set, whereas Mega Latias has a multitude ranging from CM Surf, CM STABs, CM Reflect Type (the biggest boon it has over Mega Bro set-wise, and really what I'd consider the best set), and more. Furthermore, considerably better SpDef, tremendously higher Speed, and blanket checking far more of the meta. Not to mention that Mega Bro and Mega Lati serve completely different purposes from a teambuilding perspective; they beat completely different things lol. The comparisons/debate between the two stems from people seeing Surf+Shock as the only Mega Latias set, ignoring the fact that they are completely different stat-wise, and ignoring the fact that they set up on and beat different Pokemon. Please can we stop with this now lol.

In my opinion, there was a serious hyping-up of Mega Latias when it rose to A-, based on the terrible BoltBeam set. This set aside though, considering all of the other actually good sets it can run and what it bring to the table in checking the meta, I think it deserves to remain there.
 

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