Resource ORAS OU Viability Ranking Thread V5 (See Page 43 - Post #1063)

SJCrew

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Speaking of Weavile, I think a lot of Weavile's viability is closely tied to Tornadus-T and how unequivocally spammable and borderline broken that thing is. I don't care if it misses Hurricane every once in a while; it pressures the shit out of every type of team even with only three of its moves and can beat most of its checks by Knocking Off and pivoting out constantly. It's also an incredible instrument vs. stall because quite frankly, no Chansey is going to stay in and get Knocked Off if they can help it. But then what's taking the Hurricane and forcing it out? Probably only Zapdos. Anything else and it can just Knock Off, U-turn and wait.

By the way, I'm not exaggerating because I'm salty about losing to it. It's been a slow realization over all of the times I've had playing with it, against it, and watching replays of it that there are almost no good answers to that thing. I would definitely challenge the notion that nothing is as good as Clefable in this meta, because Torn-T is becoming dominant and people are breaking out the Weaviles just to fight back.
 
Mega alakazam A- -> B+: Disagree, mega alak cm set is really good agaisnt both offense and balance, being the fastet mon in the meta(not counting items) is really nice for revenge killing things, trace can be a blessing at times copying usefull abilities like Sheer Force, Adaptability, flash fire, magic bounce, magnet pull(the funniest thing to do in this game is trapping magnezone),multiscale(can live a +1 outrage with tnks to this), regenerator, sand rush, water absorb, etc... Sand is everywere(some things are going to drop because of sand lol) and mega alakazam is awesome agaisnt sand, beating Ttar and excadrill(stealing sand rush to pass trough the enemy team), you can also beat amoongus and steal regenerator to stay healthy, also most teams carry a water type wallbreaker to help, alakazam can beat keldeo(the best one) and make steam eruption locked volcanion switch giving you a free turn, while priority and mega scizor hurts it a lot i think that it's niche as a sand check/revange killer/cm wincon it's good enough to keep it at A-.
in this replay mega alakazam pressures bludz team so hard, the only thing that made me get so far in the battle was mega alakazam(2koing av torn-t with sheer force)
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-420947008

in this battle mega alakazam pressures the enemy team a lot, revange kill dragonite, and clean late game with cm.
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-420955237.

Serperior A- ->B+: Strongly Disagree, lol the point you made were awuful, serperior best set is Subseed, wich allows it to beat most of it's usual checks like Chansey and heatran, while beating Scizor and ferro with Hp fire, it can streamroll so easly in mid game, the only mons between S and A that can stop it are Torn-t, talonflame, weavile(can't beat you, if serperior is behind a sub), and maybe t-wave thundy, that will probably dies in the process, serperior almost 6x0 stall(fuck you amoongus), and definetly shouldn't drop;

i don't have a lot of arguments on the others noms, but i disagree with mega latias dropping, don't really care for manectric and venusaur, kinda agree with gliscor, kinda disagree with mega garde, and i'm no tsure about volcanion, slowbro, mega slowbro and weavile.
 

AM

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Lol you guys want to drop Mega Venu but then raise Crawdaunt and gear the slate towards a bunch of stuff M-Venu prefers having less of like M-Latias. The sand argument is also super weird Excadrill needs to be SD to even break bulkier M-Venusaurs anyways and most of the good offensive checks to M-Venu like Latios hate taking a Knock Off which is good on M-Venu btw. Not a super strong opinion on M-Venu but I'm reading a lot of these posts and can tell people haven't really used it well, if at all.

M-Gardevoir isn't B+ like I know people go "lol" M-Scizor but use other sets like the SubCM or Sub / 3 attacks set and pray you're not running some slow squad before putting it in B+ with Kyurem-B (puke).

Once again I've been made a fool, won't be the last. Zapdos is actually nice my b.

I can go into detail why Klefki is actually awful (seriously it does not check anything as much as people think it does, and you mandate your steel slot to theoretical utility) but that implies more commitment than I want to provide for that.

M-Lopunny should be A+. Char-X could probably go A+ to.
 
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Yeah no totally agree with AM. This has once again degenerated into a serious case of parroting regarding Mega Venu. The arguments presented for its drop are laughable in most cases (I've literally read that it has better bulk and offenses than Amoonguss but it is still outclassed by it, lol, not to mention people saying it'll get burnt if it's your Water check. Nice natural cure Amoonguss). Go and use it, it is still solid.

Same can be said for Mega Manectric imo. This thing is still incredibly threatening and especially on the actual builds it should be used on that support it properly, which mitigate its weakness to stall (ie: Mane+breaker/s/Spikes). Oh also for those giving it the "waaaaah Latis!", not only is it super easy to accrue damage on those two and put them in range of an HP Ice (or two if you're feeling fresh), but BandTar pairs fantastically with it, so please, stop. As for the everyone's favourite argument for everything ever: sand, can we just stop, like, please? Hint: you should always have something solid for sand, not matter the team. I know I'm gone get a squirty response along the lines of "b-b-b-but Ttar can trap you after you've got a kill!" Guess what? Back when Manectric was considered a top-tier threat, Ttar was still fucking popular as hell. It was still trapping Manectric. It was still one of the biggest roadblocks for it on Balance along with Heatran. The majority of the time you can Volt out on Ttar anyway considering your opponent should rather take nothing on Ttar than sack a 'Mon then bring Ttar in. I'm still amazed that someone (idr who and I can't be bothered to scroll up lol) would put Manectric on the same level as fuckin Dragalge, Mega Sceptile and Mandibuzz. People need to stop overstating the impact that Sand is having on the meta and teambuilding in general. It's never been something you could just turn a blind eye to in building. It's always been dominant to some degree. All I've seen with regards to Mega Manectric over the last few days is people who can't help but look at shit in a vacuum, and that have obviously not used Manectric, even for a game or two, before posting.

As for serperior dropping? Nah, no way. That shit's lowkey broken and I'd sooner see it rise than drop.

Also maybe my perspective is a little scewed but Manaphy and Thundubroken have been having some serious fun as of late. I think a rise shouldn't be off the cards for them, along with Lopunny the god.

Edit: also Drop Mega Bro. It's dong and I'd rather use Suicune (for obvious reasons) or even regular CM Bro.
 

MANNAT

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AM briefly mentioned this earlier before I went to go write this post, but here goes a nom from me that should've been on the slate imo.

to A+:
After using this mon a bunch lately and seeing just how effective it is, I'm scratching my head at why Zardx Isn't A+ rank. Since the ranking team already knows Zardx's pros and cons, I'm just gonna go ahead and cover recent metagame shifts that help Zardx. The biggest metagame trend that I would say indicates an increase in Zardx's viability is the increasing usage of Scarf Lando over the Defensive set on offense because Jolly DD Zardx (easily the best set atm) can OHKO Scarf Lando-T after rocks at +0 attack about 94% of the time, which means that there are more and more teams that get ripped apart by DD Zardx. Additionally, many teams that aren't running Lando-T are relying on Diancie, Heatran, and/or Tyranitar as their main Zardx check, and the increase in the usage of DD Earthquake Zardx pretty much renders these checks helpless vs a +1 Zardx, with TTar being the only one avoiding a straight up OHKO at +1 and getting OHKO'd after rocks 100% of the time anyways. In addition to all of these would be checks that offense is using for Zardx, offense is also tending to use Pokemon that are setup bait for DD Zardx in Scarf Lando (pre-mega sets up on eq), Mega Scizor, and Jirachi (Rocks set is huge rn), which means that not only are there metagame changes to indicate that Zardx can rip through offense easier with a boost, but it can also get more chances to set up without fear. Not only are recent metagame trends on offense nice for Zardx, but one metagame trend in particular on fatter teams is also really nice for Zardx. With the literal swarm of birdspam on the ladder that has taken place recently, many builders have started to integrate Zapdos into their teams in order to combat this trend. However, the jump in Zapdos usage is huge for Zardx because Zapdos is absolute setup bait for DD Zardx, which means that it can boost vs defensive teams as well, which is really nice. Overall, several sets/Pokemon that have risen in usage recently are only advantageous for Zardx and its effectiveness in the metagame is really high right now, so it really deserves a raise.
 
Hydreigon is a really good breaker right now and I believe it should go up to B Rank. Its Dual STABs alone are able to 2HKO a majority of the metagame and many of the things that can switch into them are destroyed by one of its coverage moves. Key resistances to Fire, Dark, Water, Grass, and Ground in addition to solid defenses give it numerous switch in opportunities against mons like Slowbro, Heatran, Tangrowth, Rotom-W and Landorus-t (though prediction will be required against some of these mons) while also preventing it from being overly worn down by entry hazards as well as being trapped by Pursuit. A resistance to pursuit in particular is very important and allows Hydreigon to perform slightly better than Latios against the Standard Sand Team (at least when Tyranitar is still alive). Hydreigon's speed tier, while not amazing, does allow it to outspeed virtually every defensive threat in the tier in addition to many offensive threats such as Landorus-T, Heatran, and M-Scizor, which is notable as it can force these guys out. Hydreigon is pretty vulnerable against Fairy as well as A majority of offensive threats ranked above it (namely Keldeo and Latios) but support from Pokemon such as Mega Metagross can rectify this somewhat. It also faces competition with other Pokemon like Latios for a teamslot. Overall, I feel that Hydreigon's qualities as a breaker (namely its very spammable STABs and the low amount of support required to use it) are enough to push it to B-Rank.
 

p2

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could definitely get behind a hydra rise, specs hydra just rips apart everything and its only decent switch in is azu, which is a one time switchin at best unless its running av which fucking sucks in the current meta. there's chansey too but eh.

something that needs to shoot up is dugtrio though. provides extremely invaluable support in that it can trap a huge variety of things including some of the best mons in the tier, stuff like mega diancie, tran, ttar, spdef rachi, exca out of sand, and a load of other things when weakened are really vulnerable to duggy. really the stuff duggy traps is endless and can even run shit like screech which is really great because it weakens stuff like chansey and prevents stuff like mega hera using dugtrio as subbait, memento works here in a similar vein in that it prevents duggy being setup bait for stuff like lando-t once it just trapped something.
 
Lol you guys want to drop Mega Venu but then raise Crawdaunt and gear the slate towards a bunch of stuff M-Venu prefers having less of like M-Latias. The sand argument is also super weird Excadrill needs to be SD to even break bulkier M-Venusaurs anyways and most of the good offensive checks to M-Venu like Latios hate taking a Knock Off which is good on M-Venu btw. Not a super strong opinion on M-Venu but I'm reading a lot of these posts and can tell people haven't really used it well, if at all.
Yeah idk I'd use my Venu as an Excadrill check almost as fast as I'd use it as my Weavile check lol. Besides when people are talking about Venu's match-up against Sand the focus isn't on it's ability to check Exca, but on checking the water-type wallbreakers that are mandatory on all Sand teams. If you want your bulky grass to check grounds, use Tangrowth and save your mega slot for something like Scizor.

Yeah no totally agree with AM. This has once again degenerated into a serious case of parroting regarding Mega Venu. The arguments presented for its drop are laughable in most cases (I've literally read that it has better bulk and offenses than Amoonguss but it is still outclassed by it, lol, not to mention people saying it'll get burnt if it's your Water check. Nice natural cure Amoonguss). Go and use it, it is still solid.
Maybe if you dug into WHY people say Ammognuss still outclasses Venu maybe you'd understand why people are all agreeing on it dropping lmao. The only place Venu outclasses Amoonguss is its offensive presence (Moon is still tanky enough to check everything it needs and doesn't miss out on much compared to Venu) whereas Moon has much better utility and is far more consistent than Venu at checking what it needs to. And the burn argument applies much less to Amoonguss than Venu cuz Moon has Black Sludge + Regen to mitigate the effects of burn meanwhile Venu has a shitty inconsistent 8 PP recovery move. It's definitely feeling the Bern more bro. Seriously this paragraph reeks of an unearned sense of superiority, I have no idea what its meant to do besides make bad uneducated points in the douchiest way possible.

AM briefly mentioned this earlier before I went to go write this post, but here goes a nom from me that should've been on the slate imo.

to A+:
After using this mon a bunch lately and seeing just how effective it is, I'm scratching my head at why Zardx Isn't A+ rank. Since the ranking team already knows Zardx's pros and cons, I'm just gonna go ahead and cover recent metagame shifts that help Zardx. The biggest metagame trend that I would say indicates an increase in Zardx's viability is the increasing usage of Scarf Lando over the Defensive set on offense because Jolly DD Zardx (easily the best set atm) can OHKO Scarf Lando-T after rocks at +0 attack about 94% of the time, which means that there are more and more teams that get ripped apart by DD Zardx. Additionally, many teams that aren't running Lando-T are relying on Diancie, Heatran, and/or Tyranitar as their main Zardx check, and the increase in the usage of DD Earthquake Zardx pretty much renders these checks helpless vs a +1 Zardx, with TTar being the only one avoiding a straight up OHKO at +1 and getting OHKO'd after rocks 100% of the time anyways. In addition to all of these would be checks that offense is using for Zardx, offense is also tending to use Pokemon that are setup bait for DD Zardx in Scarf Lando (pre-mega sets up on eq), Mega Scizor, and Jirachi (Rocks set is huge rn), which means that not only are there metagame changes to indicate that Zardx can rip through offense easier with a boost, but it can also get more chances to set up without fear. Not only are recent metagame trends on offense nice for Zardx, but one metagame trend in particular on fatter teams is also really nice for Zardx. With the literal swarm of birdspam on the ladder that has taken place recently, many builders have started to integrate Zapdos into their teams in order to combat this trend. However, the jump in Zapdos usage is huge for Zardx because Zapdos is absolute setup bait for DD Zardx, which means that it can boost vs defensive teams as well, which is really nice. Overall, several sets/Pokemon that have risen in usage recently are only advantageous for Zardx and its effectiveness in the metagame is really high right now, so it really deserves a raise.
Was originally skeptical about Zard X rising but this guy here made a really good case for it, Zard's been under the radar since this thread got revamped and I think its time the only good DDancer in this tier get his spot in the limelight back.

Skeptical about Lopunny rising, not sure what's really changed for it to make it better, IMO the things that have been rising in popularity as of late (Birdspam) are serving to make it worse. It's fucking amazing for sure and I'd be down for a rise if there was some actual explanation as to why its gotten better since it dropped to A but until then I'll have to abstain from an opinion on it.

TL;DR Venu still deserves to drop, Zard deserves to rise and Lop needs more of a case made for it.
 
Maybe if you dug into WHY people say Ammognuss still outclasses Venu maybe you'd understand why people are all agreeing on it dropping lmao. The only place Venu outclasses Amoonguss is its offensive presence (Moon is still tanky enough to check everything it needs and doesn't miss out on much compared to Venu) whereas Moon has much better utility and is far more consistent than Venu at checking what it needs to. And the burn argument applies much less to Amoonguss than Venu cuz Moon has Black Sludge + Regen to mitigate the effects of burn meanwhile Venu has a shitty inconsistent 8 PP recovery move. It's definitely feeling the Bern more bro. Seriously this paragraph reeks of an unearned sense of superiority, I have no idea what its meant to do besides make bad uneducated points in the douchiest way possible.
Yeah no I'm not taking this from someone who's basically a meme. Def Venusaur beats everything Amoonguss does, and a hell of a lot more, with more reliability, here's a list for you lol: Keld (Amoong comes in on rocks, gets burned, switches, comes back in on Hydro or Icy and rocks, dies the next turn), Max Attack Diancie (the only Diancie), Offensive and Scarf Lando, Azu (especially fucking Drum, the best set rn), Lopunny, Chomper, Nidoking, Mega Sciz w/ HP Fire that doesn't just bounce off, Manaphy, Daunt. The list goes on my g. The difference between 80/123/120 and 114/70/80 is fucking massive, Regenerator or no Regenerator, and the consistency with which this huge difference in bulk will come into play is staggering. It does all this without being the most passive 'Mon the ever grace the fucking game. Stop overplaying the effect that Sand is having right now and actually use Mega Venusaur.

With regards to the last sentence of your post, my god, the irony. I hate to tell you g, but you are really, really regarded as nothing but a bandwaggoning parrot. A meme, nothing else. All of your posts are so horrendously aggressive and lacking in any true substance or anything of any value that will add to or spur discussion. "Unearned sense of superiority", good god, hilarious.
 

Eclipse

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Before I go on with this post, I'm personally on the fence about whether or not Venusaur should drop so I have no strong opinion either way. If it were to drop for any reason, it's due to the fact that Venusaur simply is nowhere near as splashable as Amoonguss/Tangrowth on many builds as at this point, Venusaur needs specific support to function to its best whereas Amoon/Tang don't need this because of passive recovery in Regen as well as Black Sludge in Amoonguss' case. It's best set is definitely Defensive with STAB's, Synth, and Knock Off for the amazing utility to cripple common switchins such as Heatran and Latios. However it wouldn't be fair to look at Venu alone without the proper support it needs to succeed, that being status absorber/cleric support (Heal Bell, Wish, Healing Wish, etc.) which can be easily found on the defensive builds that Venusaur should be ran on at this point with mons like Clefable, for example. Burns are a common problem that Venusaur will run into, but if the team doesn't have the means of relieving the pressure off of Venu and have it as like the sole Rotom/Keldeo answer, then of course it's gonna look underwhelming compared to Amoonguss. So that's just something to keep in mind, as we should be looking at how Venusaur functions on its most optimal builds at this point in the meta as opposed to the poor builds it used to be thrown on in the past which can obviously be made better by throwing Amoonguss or Tangrowth onto it.

Now onto the meta changes which benefit Venusaur at the moment, you'll notice that a number of mons are tending to drop coverage which would normally have been preferred in the past due to how common Venu used to be, aka stuff like Medi/Meta no longer running Zen Headbutt as commonly as they used to, as well as some Latios' running other coverage over Psychic/Psyshock (and the good thing is that if they are running these moves, since Lati threatens out Venu normally with Psychic coverage, you can Knock Off it's LO/Specs on the switch and neither Psyshock/Psychic will OHKO Venu after rocks without an item, meaning you can take out Lati with ease). Mixed Defensive variants easily handle Medicham even after rocks due to them not running Zen nearly as much, so common mons that used to threaten Venu as much in the past aren't a big issue for it at the moment due to preparation for Amoonguss/Tangrowth which do not exactly carry over to checking Venusaur due to its bulk.

And the main thing that Venusaur has right now is that it completely manhandles Tangrowth/Amoonguss, as since both are relatively common atm, Venu walls them both and helps you gain more momentum against most teams that carry these two. So overall while I have no opinion either way on Venu dropping or not, I just wanted to make this post to at least show some of the positive aspects Venusaur still has in the current meta with the proper support as it is not as splashable as Tangrowth/Amoonguss. I do believe these two are better than Venu from a splashability standpoint, but I would personally just raise Amoonguss to A- and keep Venu a rank below the both of them if you were gonna go this route, but these are just some thoughts I'm throwing out there so that most of the posts aren't just talking about the negative points of Venusaur to help the ranking team take both sides into account when discussing the rank of Venusaur right now.
 
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SJCrew

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If there's one point I feel has been undersold with regards to Mega Venu's viability, it's the mega slot that it requires, which also singlehandledy explains the massive increase of usage Amoonguss and Tangrowth have enjoyed lately. Players would rather default to non-Mega Grasses as their Keldeo check, which frees up room for them to straight-up blast fools with Mega Medicham. Mega offense has become the backbone of the most successful teams in ORAS OU, and by choosing Venu, you are actively giving up that offense for a slot that effectively only brings Azumarill insurance. Unless you have a strong, non-Mega offense or defense that Venusaur just happens to synergize with, you're going to find yourself defaulting to those Diancie, Zard, or Pinsir builds, because they bring more to the table by outright killing the enemy team instead of checking them. I think the only trend that would shift the paradigm in Venusaur's favor at this point would be the uprising of a threat just as effective as said Megas that Venusaur checks best. BD Azu is the only threat close enough to fit that bill, but I don't see it attaining a level of dominance that forces us to use Venu. At least, not right now.

Let's not make light of tournament usage, performance, and successful OLT ladder trends either. Venusaur does have the unfortunate distinction of a mere seven uses in WCOP compared to Amoonguss and Tangrowth sporting 30+ each, and almost all of the megas used in its place are offensive. This all but confrims my point that Venusaur does not fit nearly as well on successful builds these days as its competition (other megas/grasses).

I do, however, think that Knock Off M-Venu is a rather interesting prospect to help it combat current meta trends, as it puts a dent in the lifespan of one of its greatest nemeses, AV Torn-T, who could otherwise switch in forever.
 
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Yeah no I'm not taking this from someone who's basically a meme. Def Venusaur beats everything Amoonguss does, and a hell of a lot more, with more reliability, here's a list for you lol: Keld (Amoong comes in on rocks, gets burned, switches, comes back in on Hydro or Icy and rocks, dies the next turn), Max Attack Diancie (the only Diancie), Offensive and Scarf Lando, Azu (especially fucking Drum, the best set rn), Lopunny, Chomper, Nidoking, Mega Sciz w/ HP Fire that doesn't just bounce off, Manaphy, Daunt. The list goes on my g. The difference between 80/123/120 and 114/70/80 is fucking massive, Regenerator or no Regenerator, and the consistency with which this huge difference in bulk will come into play is staggering. It does all this without being the most passive 'Mon the ever grace the fucking game. Stop overplaying the effect that Sand is having right now and actually use Mega Venusaur.

With regards to the last sentence of your post, my god, the irony. I hate to tell you g, but you are really, really regarded as nothing but a bandwaggoning parrot. A meme, nothing else. All of your posts are so horrendously aggressive and lacking in any true substance or anything of any value that will add to or spur discussion. "Unearned sense of superiority", good god, hilarious.
252 Atk Earth Plate Landorus-T Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 96+ Def Mega Venusaur: 150-177 (41.3 - 48.7%) -- 74.6% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock

252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Nidoking Sludge Wave vs. 248 HP / 144 SpD Mega Venusaur: 149-177 (41 - 48.7%) -- 72.7% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock

252 Atk Life Orb Garchomp Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 96+ Def Mega Venusaur: 149-177 (41 - 48.7%) -- 72.7% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock

+3 252 SpA Manaphy Psychic vs. 248 HP / 144 SpD Mega Venusaur: 310-366 (85.3 - 100.8%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

+3 252 SpA Manaphy Ice Beam vs. 248 HP / 144 SpD Thick Fat Mega Venusaur: 156-184 (42.9 - 50.6%) -- 96.9% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock

+2 252+ Atk Technician Mega Scizor Bug Bite vs. 248 HP / 96+ Def Mega Venusaur: 253-298 (69.6 - 82%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

Not to mention Sciz can U-Turn out anyways and at +2 Bulky Sciz 2hko's with Bug Bite. Effectively the amount of things Venu "beats" are limited to Lopunny, Scarf Lando, Diancie, Keldeo, Azu, and Crawdaunt. Most of the things you listed here don't actually get beaten lol. Not to mention all of the things here that Venu beats bar BD Azu and Daunt are beaten by Tang and moreso (EP Lando and Chomp, for example) while being, again, easier to keep alive, having a better defensive typing for taking on grounds while still being able to take on Keld thnx to AV, and not taking up a mega slot allowing you to use overall better megas like Scizor.

As for the rest of that, I'm not gonna bother responding to what is clearly gonna devolve into a list of personal attacks on each other. I'll admit I shouldn't have let your post annoy me like it did and just ignore the rest of the projection.
 

Century Express

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Mega Venu doesn't lose vs. BD Azuma, doesn't invite Spikes users switch-ins (bar Klefki), it's an individual offensive threat (works really well vs. Bulky teams using Lati or Scarf Rachi as their answers) and only loses against a couple of Manaphy variants, something which neither or Amoonguss or Tangrowth accomplish at the same level.

Although i'm a big Mega Venu fan, i'm not opposed to its drop. When you use a mega, you usually want to design it to pressure teams + providing a couple of functions, Mega Venu is more dedicated to role compression than consistent offensive presence, and some of builds featuring him as a offensive glue often have some anoying flaws, like weakness vs CB Weav / Terrak / Ttar (strong and useful ORAS trends) or M-Gard & Stall overall, and it doesn't outperform vs. HO as well, if you opt for common teambuilding routes (think of FGW cores with Tran or Slowbro or Rotom). He's solid, but not outstanding nowadays imo.

But overall, i don't see Venusaur as an outclased 'mon, even with a high cost as a mega slot.
 
since i'm namelocked, locked, & blacklisted from several rooms at the moment, i thought i might as well do something useful with my saturday evening instead of trolling the ladder & dealing with stupid globals

i actually thought diggersby was b+ rank for like...this whole time. life orb + 4 attacks & swords dance + stabs should be the only two sets you should be using right now. i'm not going to touch the latter since we all know what it can do & it can do that shit well. the former can literally break through any of its checks. scizor? fire punch. slowbro? wild charge. landorus-t? ice punch. oras move tutors just turned this thing into an absolute beast. before anyone gives me the 4mss argument, let me just tell you i know you can't fit every move on the same set. the idea is you pick the moves your team needs. some 4 attacks diggersby don't even need return because the point of the set is to lure anything you want for your team. rotom-w is the only notable target (depending on your set) you'll be missing out on, but no good player switches it directly in plus it isn't the hardest thing to wear down / check.

now we're acting like crawdaunt is the only wallbreaker that's being slept on? at least move this thing to b rank, only if you are going to make crawdaunt b+ rank of course

also, suicune should be a-
 
I still don't see what makes Suicune that great considering that it's not very hard to overwhelm in the long run. M-Medi's High Jump Kick, most CB mons out there, CM+Psyshock users (MegaZam, Latias, M-Garde, Reuniclus), Taunt users, Specs Goodra, LO Hydreigon etc. There are too many things in the meta that deal over 50% to it. Not saying it's easy to beat 1-on-1, what I want to point out is that it's easy to OVERWHELM in conjunction with entry hazards and Suicune's 4MSS.

Suicune should drop to B if anything, it's not as good as Kyurem-B or Nidoking
 
Suicune has no business staying in on MMedi anyway, and the most common CB 'Mon, TTar, not only daren't switch in on Scald (which goes for all Banded 'Mons), it also loses 2 PP on attacking Suicune on the rest, not to mention SubTect Suicune literally forces it to struggle. CM+Shock users get phazed out by RoarCune, which, incidentally pairs incredibly well on properly-built hazard stack phasing teams with the like of Hippo and Skarm, speeding up the inevitability of a Cune sweep. Taunt is an issue, as it is for all fat setup 'Mons. Hydra can't beat Cune after a CM, even if Specs, as Dark Pulse isn't 2HKOing and Draco can be rested on even without a boost (same goes for lolGoodra). I think you're underestimating just how bulky Cune really is if you think it's easy to overwhelm. It sets up on so many things, and pressure is such a great ability for it (near perfect, even) as it allows it to outlast many would-be counters. In the early-mid game, it should be grabbing maybe one boost, spreading burn and then resting off the damage to sweep later on when the opposing team is weakened beyond return.

To say it isn't on the same level as the (in my opinion) tremendously overrated Nidoking and Kyub is asinine, really. Checking through WCoP replays of it in action should show you just how effective it is an how much it brings to the table. I think it's more at home with the likes Tangrowth, Serperior, and Starmie than it is with Magnezone, Nidoking, and Mega Gyarados. I'd be for a raise.
 
Well, true, but what I mean is that IN CONJUNCTION with SR and the not uncommon Spikes, Suicune can easily succumb. +1 Psyshock from MegaZam deals 40% to RoarCune as it switches in, which after rocks and lefties leaves Cune at around 50-55%. Suicune Roars, but if it happens to bring a special attacker it's likely done for (Keldeo being a notable exception). Latios OHKOes, Hydreigon OHKOes while Gengar and Nidoking OHKO most of the time. There's also CM Latios's Psyshock which deals almost 50% and the aforementioned potential OHKOes become guaranteed OHKOes with SR in play (it's recommended to not go for draco as it doesn't always OHKO and cune can rest out of it). Mega Latias deals some good damage with +1 Psychic and can run Roar herself. Mega Garde is too much for Cune no matter how you look at it. As for Reuniclus, it easily wins a CM war with Suicune in last Pokemon situations (which Suicune is known for) due to Magic Guard blocking residual damage from Scald's burn.

I wouldn't say SubTect Suicune is worth its salt - all it really seems to do is spread burns and... annoy, it reminds me of BW Lugia (with Pressure) in Ubers when I could just bring Tyranitar or Kyogre in and lol at it. Suicune doesn't even have reliable recovery.
 

zbr

less than 99% acc = never hit
is a Tiering Contributor Alumnus
Well, true, but what I mean is that IN CONJUNCTION with SR and the not uncommon Spikes, Suicune can easily succumb. +1 Psyshock from MegaZam deals 40% to RoarCune as it switches in, which after rocks and lefties leaves Cune at around 50-55%. Suicune Roars, but if it happens to bring a special attacker it's likely done for (Keldeo being a notable exception). Latios OHKOes, Hydreigon OHKOes while Gengar and Nidoking OHKO most of the time. There's also CM Latios's Psyshock which deals almost 50% and the aforementioned potential OHKOes become guaranteed OHKOes with SR in play (it's recommended to not go for draco as it doesn't always OHKO and cune can rest out of it). Mega Latias deals some good damage with +1 Psychic and can run Roar herself. Mega Garde is too much for Cune no matter how you look at it. As for Reuniclus, it easily wins a CM war with Suicune in last Pokemon situations (which Suicune is known for) due to Magic Guard blocking residual damage from Scald's burn.

I wouldn't say SubTect Suicune is worth its salt - all it really seems to do is spread burns and... annoy, it reminds me of BW Lugia (with Pressure) in Ubers when I could just bring Tyranitar or Kyogre in and lol at it. Suicune doesn't even have reliable recovery.
again.. why is cune staying in on those aforementioned threats? o-o why would you go into last mon 1v1 vs reun when you obviously lose to it? why are we comparing something we normally switch in on physical attacks to specially offensive mons?

cune in certain ways is a mon that harasses teams that are not amply prepared for it. and most teams aren't simply because it is able to utilise it's ability and it's incredible physical bulk well. rise or not is another thing on it's own, i just don't think it's fair to compare it to something that it's not meant to switch in on. it's like saying chansey is shit because it can't switch in on a machamp's dynamicpunch.
 
notice how I said CM+Psyshock? You tank one +1 Psyshock, get to 50-55%, roar the opposing CM user and if you're lucky (something you can actually beat 1-on-1 e.g. Excadrill or hell, AMOONGUSS which is really neat), fine, rest it out or start using CM, but if you bring out Mega Medi, something like Kyurem-B or the special attackers aforementioned (and also Thundurus, Tornadus-T) you're forced out. You switch in later, with rocks you get down to 45% (including lefties). At 45% CM+Roar Cune is often forced to rest because it usually can't tank 2 consecutive hits even with Scald and that ridiculous physical bulk. Including the turn you switch in an appropiate answer, Rest really is the double-edged sword in that it fully heals Suicune, but it also creates 2-3 turns where it literally becomes a sitting duck and a punching bag for any CB user, why? because it doesn't have room for Sleep Talk, unlike CroCune. Examples of CB users that easily pound Suicune in this state include Tyranitar, Azumarill, Kyurem-B and Dragonite. For example Tyranitar either uses Stone Edge for the possible 2HKO with sand, or better yet, spams the hell out of Crunch until it gets a defense drop, at which point Suicune is done for. Rest also invites the likes of SD Chomp and Weavile to waltz in and set up for free. Not to mention any decent special attacker not named Keldeo.

This is a particular answer, but it shows that at 50-60% or so Suicune WILL be forced to rest on the next turn, which creates plenty of opportunities for offense (and even balanced) teams to break through it.
 
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zbr

less than 99% acc = never hit
is a Tiering Contributor Alumnus
notice how I said CM+Psyshock? You tank one +1 Psyshock, get to 50-55%, roar the opposing CM user and if you're lucky (something you can actually beat 1-on-1 e.g. Excadrill or hell, AMOONGUSS which is really neat), fine, rest it out or start using CM, but if you bring out Mega Medi, something like Kyurem-B or the special attackers aforementioned (and also Thundurus, Tornadus-T) you're forced out. You switch in later, with rocks you get down to 45% (including lefties). At 45% CM+Roar Cune is often forced to rest because it usually can't tank 2 consecutive hits even with Scald and that ridiculous physical bulk. Including the turn you switch in an appropiate answer,
here is where we realise that cune doesn't stay in on mzam (which is what you were talking bout.) then you proceed to bring out mmedi when you have mzam? ok.
Rest really is the double-edged sword in that it fully heals Suicune, but it also creates 2-3 turns where it literally becomes a sitting duck and a punching bag for any CB user, why? because it doesn't have room for Sleep Talk, unlike CroCune.
uh. you don't just rest up and then mindlessly attempt to burn turns of sleep.. sure not having sleep talk is a huge pain for roarcune, which is why you don't mindlessly tackle foes you can't deal with.
Examples of CB users that easily pound Suicune in this state include Tyranitar, Azumarill, Kyurem-B and Dragonite. It also invites the likes of SD Chomp and Weavile to waltz in and set up for free. Not to mention any decent special attacker not named Keldeo.
again, the aim is not to switch cune in on things that can flat out abuse its sleep turns. clearly it's not some crazy a+ caliber mon so idk why you are expecting it to beat all those mons. cune is great now in a metagame where we lean a lot towards physical offense as well as balance because it's able to flat out annoy teams that rely on shaky water checks. weavile does what to cune btw? o-o
This is a particular answer, but it shows that at 50-60% or so Suicune WILL be forced to rest on the next turn, which creates plenty of opportunities for offense (and even balanced) teams to break through it.
because im sure that majority of your cb mons want to come in on a rest only to risk having a chance be burnt by scald.
 

SketchUp

Don't let your memes be dreams
Yo guys can we drop Clefable to like B+. Specs users, Mega Charizard-Y, CM+Psyshock users, Taunt, Specs Kyurem etc. There are too many things in this meta that deal over 50% to it. Not saying it is easy to beat but I use Clefable as my check to Specs Keldeo, NP Thundurus and Serperior and it's so easy to overwhelm with its low defenses and 4mss.
Mega Diancie should be around B- too. Mega Medicham's HJK just breaks it and it isn't a good check to Mega Alakazam either. Like is it even worth using if it just dies to some CM Psyshock users such as CM Slowking and CM Reuniclus. On top of that, it's weak to hazards and doesn't have reliable recovery. I mean Mega Diancie is one of the biggest offensive threats and a great offensive check to threats such as Tornadus-T, Talonflame, Hydreigon, and Mega Pinsir, but does that even matter if it can't beat all the Choice Band users in the metagame? I think not.

Edit: I'm not trying to be funny. I'm trying to show that your arguments are really bad with the use of exaggeration.
 
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here is where we realise that cune doesn't stay in on mzam (which is what you were talking bout.) then you proceed to bring out mmedi when you have mzam? ok.
I gave an example, it can be any CM+Psyshock user, not just Mega Zam. Latios does similar damage, btw.

uh. you don't just rest up and then mindlessly attempt to burn turns of sleep.. sure not having sleep talk is a huge pain for roarcune, which is why you don't mindlessly tackle foes you can't deal with.
And that's a huge problem I have with RoarCune: it tends to become a sitting duck too easily. Unlike Mega Slowbro (which is B+ as well) since that thing gets reliable recovery and higher special attack. Or better yet, regular Slowbro (since mega is well mega and consumes your slot) whose CM set is A: sure, it may have a worse defensive typing, but the thing is it gets reliable recovery which is HUUUUUUUGE. I don't think Suicune is just one subrank lower, that is what some people say when they want to bring it up to A-. Suicune doesn't get good recovery, which bites it in the ass and keeps it at low B+ at best imo.

Not to mention Slowbro gets other good tools in Thunder Wave, Psyshock and even Fire Blast.

again, the aim is not to switch cune in on things that can flat out abuse its sleep turns. clearly it's not some crazy a+ caliber mon so idk why you are expecting it to beat all those mons. cune is great now in a metagame where we lean a lot towards physical offense as well as balance because it's able to flat out annoy teams that rely on shaky water checks. weavile does what to cune btw? o-o
You don't switch Cune into those - if anything they switch into you after you click Rest, for example against Lando-T where it Earthquakes and does around 35-40%. especially Tyranitar who can start spamming Crunch until it gets a defense drop, and Dragonite which 2HKOes regardless. As for Weavile, I meant the Swords Dance set, which, well...

+2 252 Atk Life Orb Weavile Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Suicune: 255-302 (63.1 - 74.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

because im sure that majority of your cb mons want to come in on a rest only to risk having a chance be burnt by scald.
by your logic physically defensive Skarmory wouldn't want to switch into CB Ttar's Crunch because it risks getting a defense drop and thus 2HKOed

Yo guys can we drop Clefable to like B+. Specs users, Mega Charizard-Y, CM+Psyshock users, Taunt, Specs Kyurem etc. There are too many things in this meta that deal over 50% to it. Not saying it is easy to beat but I use Clefable as my check to Specs Keldeo, NP Thundurus and Serperior and it's so easy to overwhelm with its low defenses and 4mss.
Mega Diancie should be around B- too. Mega Medicham's HJK just breaks it and it isn't a good check to Mega Alakazam either. Like is it even worth using if it just dies to some CM Psyshock users such as CM Slowking and CM Reuniclus. On top of that, it's weak to hazards and doesn't have reliable recovery. I mean Mega Diancie is one of the biggest offensive threats and a great offensive check to threats such as Tornadus-T, Talonflame, Hydreigon, and Mega Pinsir, but that that even matter if it can't beat all the Choice Band users in the metagame? I think not.
you're not funny
 

p2

Banned deucer.
Suicune can be worn down by a lot of shit, but tell me when would you ever keep a suicune in on shit like reuniclus or a cb ttar when you know that can open up an opportunity for your opponent later in the game? and scald is one of the main factors to why cune is such a good mon because it threatens every single switchin, everything risks getting burned down and can get worn down extremely quickly, and water immunes / resistances are all at risk of getting pp stalled. Suicune is far by one of the hardest mons to keep under control because it gets out of hand insanely quickly, here's some replays of mine to showcase this: 1, 2. fwiw this mon definitely deserves a-.
 
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Where has the love in this threat gone? lol

CharX should go to A+, currently setting up with it feels more consistent, everybody already knows how much things this mon can wreck so elaborating further with calculations to show how strong it is(even without being at +1, which matters mostly against Lando-T) on it is kinda pointless(since I am sure that there have been at least like 2-3 posts of them regarding this mon), its only problem was how easy or difficult was to set up a DD, which right now has become much less of a pain.

Suicune needs to move to A- also, I will be short since I dont want to make the argument any bigger(well that and I need to go for breakfast), this is just for supporting the mon, this mon fits perfectly what an A- mon should be, he is not gonna be able to do everything like a Clefable but it certainly does what it needs, he can phaze or threaten physical mons with scald when you need it, of course he is not going to be doing it all at once everytime, but when you need to regain your momentum he surely gets the job done.

Raikou needs to be S tier.
 
Suicune can be worn down by a lot of shit, but tell me when would you ever keep a suicune in on shit like reuniclus or a cb ttar when you know that can open up an opportunity for your opponent later in the game? and scald is one of the main factors to why cune is such a good mon because it threatens every single switchin, everything risks getting burned down and can get worn down extremely quickly, and water immunes / resistances are all at risk of getting pp stalled. Suicune is far by one of the hardest mons to keep under control because it gets out of hand insanely quickly, here's some replays of mine to showcase this: 1, 2. fwiw this mon definitely deserves a-.
Replay #1: If I were the Clefable player I sure as hell wouldn't go to a Calm Mind war with Suicune no matter the set, Heracross would have easily wasted SubTect Suicune.
Replay #2: Psychic Latias isn't that great in my opinion, and you gotta admit getting two Scald burns in a row was pretty lucky (otherwise Hydreigon could have beaten it).

Don't post cherry-picked replays, please.
 

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