Resource ORAS OU Viability Ranking Thread V5 (See Page 43 - Post #1063)

first of all, if you go heracross, you risk getting burned and +1 scald 2hkoes after another round of rocks. all he would have to do is dish the damage and healing wish later. if he burned or got +2, it was over regardless.

second, you just contradicted yourself bro. you say psychic latias is bad but you just mentioned in a previous post :/
Oops, I meant Psychic MEGA Latias has its uses, Psychic regular Latias isn't worth it imo. And the Hera replay, well Hera has Guts so he could break through the subs with Pin Missile, without mega evolving.
 
Bludz himself told me that the discussion between the ranking team has been dead. When is this supposed update coming? This has been the longest interval between updates I've ever seen, and updates are what keep this thread somewhat on-track, really. (If you're not happy with this part of the post, celtic, then edit it out)

Anyway, as was said before, more of a case for Zard-X to A+ needs to be made. On paper, and really from a teambuilding and play aspect, it's broken as fuck, the resurgence of Scarf Lando helps, but defensive is still ubiquitous. Not to mention that teams without def Lando are always going to have a backup against Zard, be it in the form of Scarf *puke* Latios or Thundurus, etc. I, personally don't think it's on the same level of viability or splashabilty of Diance, Scizor, or Lopunny (which really does need to rise).
 
Seeing that this thread is newly unlocked, I think I'd like to start off some new conversation with a suggestion in rank change, specifically changing Mega Scizor from A+ --> S.

Mega Scizor is arguably the best Mega Evolution in OU right now, being able to deal with a large amount of the current metagame, including but not limited to Clefable, Mega Diancie, Latios, Azumarill, Mega Gardevoir, Mega Pinsir, Weavile, and is able to soft check many more, like Landorus-T, Tyranitar, and Mega Heracross, etc. The most popular Mega-Seizor set running around the OU tier is definelty the SD Scizor set, which is able to set up on a surprising amount of Pokemon. The SD Scizor set is also able to sweep a great amount of team that don't have an answer to it, which is hard to find with Mega-Scizor's wide movepool and lack of multiple weaknesses. In fact, Scizor's only weakness is very easy to work around, creating good defensive synergy with Pokemon like Heatran (who absorbs Fire-type attacks) and Rotom-Wash (of which Scizor can eat Grass-type attacks). With reliable recovery in the form of Roost, team support in Defog, and a fantastic ability in Technician, Mega Scizor is able to fill multiple roles on any team, and fits in on almost any team, bar Stall and certain HO teams. With a great Base Defense and decent Special Defense stat, Mega-Scizor is able to soak up hits from any neutral hit, and some weaker SuperEffective ones (like Fire Blast from TankChomp. There is only one real counter to Mega Scizor, Charizard-X, which can be dealt with in it's own respect. Other "counters" aren't actually counters at all, they're more like soft checks, and they are all easily worked around. For example, in the case of Heatran, Mega-Scizor has access to Superpower, which has a possibility of OHKOing Heatran should Mega-Scizor outspeed it, and have maximum attack investment. Another notable "counter" to Mega Scizor is Rotom-Wash, who can be 2HKOd by a +2 Bug Bite. Just to show how good Mega Scizor is, a 252+ Atk Soft Sand EQ from Landorus-T has a 50% to 2HKO the Bulky SD Scizor set. To conclude, an expansive movepool, the ability to soak up hits and deal large amounts of damage, and the stats/typing to handle most of the prevalent metagame, are all reasons that Mega Scizor should be moved from the A+ Rank to S Rank.

Thoughts/comments/errors I should correct?
 
Bludz himself told me that the discussion between the ranking team has been dead. When is this supposed update coming? This has been the longest interval between updates I've ever seen, and updates are what keep this thread somewhat on-track, really. (If you're not happy with this part of the post, celtic, then edit it out)
I've got no problem with there not being an update, for a variety of reasons. If people are looking for discussion points, Infernal's OLT thread has a lot of indepth information on the kinds of teams and trends associated with that ongoing tour. And sure I'd like for there to be an update but at the same time it's fine if the team needs more time or whatever. Also I locked the thread last Sunday and now it's almost been a week, to me that seems to be enough time to where discussion can hopefully resume and start fresh.
 
Seeing that this thread is newly unlocked, I think I'd like to start off some new conversation with a suggestion in rank change, specifically changing Mega Scizor from A+ --> S.

Mega Scizor is arguably the best Mega Evolution in OU right now, being able to deal with a large amount of the current metagame, including but not limited to Clefable, Mega Diancie, Latios, Azumarill, Mega Gardevoir, Mega Pinsir, Weavile, and is able to soft check many more, like Landorus-T, Tyranitar, and Mega Heracross, etc. The most popular Mega-Seizor set running around the OU tier is definelty the SD Scizor set, which is able to set up on a surprising amount of Pokemon. The SD Scizor set is also able to sweep a great amount of team that don't have an answer to it, which is hard to find with Mega-Scizor's wide movepool and lack of multiple weaknesses. In fact, Scizor's only weakness is very easy to work around, creating good defensive synergy with Pokemon like Heatran (who absorbs Fire-type attacks) and Rotom-Wash (of which Scizor can eat Grass-type attacks). With reliable recovery in the form of Roost, team support in Defog, and a fantastic ability in Technician, Mega Scizor is able to fill multiple roles on any team, and fits in on almost any team, bar Stall and certain HO teams. With a great Base Defense and decent Special Defense stat, Mega-Scizor is able to soak up hits from any neutral hit, and some weaker SuperEffective ones (like Fire Blast from TankChomp. There is only one real counter to Mega Scizor, Charizard-X, which can be dealt with in it's own respect. Other "counters" aren't actually counters at all, they're more like soft checks, and they are all easily worked around. For example, in the case of Heatran, Mega-Scizor has access to Superpower, which has a possibility of OHKOing Heatran should Mega-Scizor outspeed it, and have maximum attack investment. Another notable "counter" to Mega Scizor is Rotom-Wash, who can be 2HKOd by a +2 Bug Bite. Just to show how good Mega Scizor is, a 252+ Atk Soft Sand EQ from Landorus-T has a 50% to 2HKO the Bulky SD Scizor set. To conclude, an expansive movepool, the ability to soak up hits and deal large amounts of damage, and the stats/typing to handle most of the prevalent metagame, are all reasons that Mega Scizor should be moved from the A+ Rank to S Rank.

Thoughts/comments/errors I should correct?
My main concern with Mega Scizor is that its hard checks actually give it much more problems than it appears, for example 2OHKOing at +2 one of your checks(in this case Rotom-W) is not that impressive, you need 3 turns to accomplish that and chances are that the opponent is sending Rotom-W the turn you are SDing, take a Bug Bite in the next turn in exchange of burning you, which basically means the other turn he can voltswitchout or switch off and give the chance to a hard hitter deal with M-Scizor, in that moment you have lost momentum because you either go for a BP to try to deal some damage before dying or try to save you crippled Scizor by changing it, though unless you have a Cleric it will remain crippled(this is just an example, because of course no one would just let their M-Scizor get crippled, but it just shows that it cannot deal with Rotom-W comfortably if it is at full health, SR and prior damage can factor in this, but this just means M-Scizor needs support to deal with it, solidifying the position of Rotom-W as a check)

In the case of Superpower is kinda a double edged sword, first is only real consistent on incoming Heatrans, second if the opponent lures you into using it you are going to be in a bad spot.

Also lets be real, M-Scizor cannot run all the EV spreads at the same time, I say this because you use an Offensive SD against Heatran and a Bulky one against Landorus-T, so therefore, altough by different mons, it can always be checked, if we use arguments based on a convenient set for a mon against a specific check it will just be biased, IMO is better to point out what checks/counters the set has and how that specific set can deal with it.

The deal with Scizor is how splashable both the bulky and offensive set are, but if you know what is running and have the mon to check it dealing with it is doable, easier said than done but I dont fine its case being different from other A+ mons.

I think M-Scizor should remain A+.
 
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One thing that's really been bothering me about these rankings is the discrepancy that often exists between usage and viability. I understand why general usage and viability shouldn't correlate perfectly, but high-level usage, whether that's measured from top-tier tournaments like WCOP or high ranking ladder teams, should track very closely with viability. In fact, it is the single best objective measure of viability that I can possibly think of. It makes no sense that pokemon like Latios and Landorus-T, which are used on 40%-50% of high-level teams, are ranked lower than Clefable, which doesn't see anywhere near as much usage. To me this is a huge discrepancy and I have yet to see a cogent explanation for it.
 

Martin

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One thing that's really been bothering me about these rankings is the discrepancy that often exists between usage and viability. I understand why general usage and viability shouldn't correlate perfectly, but high-level usage, whether that's measured from top-tier tournaments like WCOP or high ranking ladder teams, should track very closely with viability. In fact, it is the single best objective measure of viability that I can possibly think of. It makes no sense that pokemon like Latios and Landorus-T, which are used on 40%-50% of high-level teams, are ranked lower than Clefable, which doesn't see anywhere near as much usage. To me this is a huge discrepancy and I have yet to see a cogent explanation for it.
If usage and win-rates in tours were the measure used then Magnezone would be ranked in A+ because it has one of the highest win rates in tournament. However, what you need to account for is the fact that Magnezone is typically picked as a counterstyling method for use vs. players who have a tendency to bring Steel-types as their main answers for Pokémon X, Y and/or Z so it makes a lot of sense to see it have a high win rate. The other reason is because splashability and viability don't correlate perfectly. Landorus-T is easier to plug onto a team than Lando-I is, but Lando-I was quite obviously a lot better than Landorus-T. Clef vs. Lando is another good example, as Clef isn't as easy to plug onto teams as Lando is, but it is still the best Pokémon in the meta and the S rank aims to reflect this by having it as the sole Pokémon in S. I could keep looking for examples but yeah there is no objective link to say that something which is used more is more viable, and to try and say that there is any way to objectively place things on an entirely subjective scale simply doesn't work.
 

p2

Banned deucer.
simply put, the only reason lando/latios have such high usage is because they're holding the meta together against all the borderline broken shit already running around.

really the best way to view it is: does this mon ever exert a similar amount or more pressure than clefable does and can it do this to a similarly consistent basis?

you'll find that although stuff like msciz are fucking incredible, it lacks the consistency and overall threat level which makes clef such a massive threat.

nothing should share s rank with clefable fwiw, the only things i would things i would even consider being better than a+ are zardx and sciz. zardx is just fucking busted lol but theres 0 chance of it getting kicked out now, sciz is also insanely good but like i said it just lacks the consistency to be on par with clef, especially that the standards were increased a while back. old standards id probably say yes to s msciz, but its w/e
now and im just rambling so this post probably stopped making sense a while back
 
Lando-T is insanely consistent lol, it finds use vs every type of team, and is extremely to difficult to deal with because even if you "counter" it, it's still setting up rocks, dealing rocky helmet chip damage to whatever hit it, and u-turning out to generate momentum (and that's only considering 1 set).
Lando-T is easily the strongest mon in the tier, and that's reflected in its usage.

I mean the fact that lando-T is the most common switch in to itself, and that lando-t's are running HP ice just to target lando and chomp, should be telling about how strong it is lol.
 
i say we ban lando-t and the latis so that each team doesn't consist of a core, lando-t, one of the latis, and stuff to patch holes.
Really? Just because a few mons have more viability and are common glue mons doesnt mean they are ban worthy. I mean, what makes lando t and lati@s ban worthy? your only reason is each team wont be the same, but really, the better, more competitive teams are the best mons. Even though you see better players use mons in NU or RU for fun, you will almost never see those mons in tournament play if they dont fill specific niches because stuff like lando + latis are just better. Besides, both of those mons have reliable ways to beat them, such as lack of recovery (outside of lefties) on lando and pursuit trap for latis etc. besides this isnt the place to ask for bans. maybe a rise would be warranted instead.
 
i say we ban lando-t and the latis so that each team doesn't consist of a core, lando-t, one of the latis, and stuff to patch holes.
yeah i totally agree in a clusterfuck meta such as this nobody wants blanket checks about. what a ludicrous notion

stop fuckin trolling

edit: thought. I think trying to keep this thread on-topic or somewhat focused is an effort in futility at this point. It's a valuable resource for newer players, which is what it's meant to be, so it needs to stay. I think an alternative forum (in the literal sense of the word) needs to be devised. Maybe a PS room or something for discussion to take place between those who are actually interested, moderated by the ranking team themselves. Just an idea idk but this thread just seems like nothing but bad players chiming up, good players shooting them down, people harvesting likes and then it degenerates into a sloppy maelstrom of idiocy and shit-flinging. The whole "locking till cooldown" is nice and all, but each time it hasn't worked for any extended period of time.

Idk I just think something new needs to be devised

Also I recognise the hypocrisy in this post: it will be deleted so do not respond to it
 
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HailFall

my cancer is sun and my leo is moon
Clefable avoids the 2hko from practically every non-boosted powerful neutral/resisted stab move in the tier with its standard spread and has the capability to cripple nearly every check to it in the metagame with thunder wave and hax its way past fucking everything. its by far the best wincondition in the tier but besides just this it provides a status absorber and fantastic pivot immune to spikes and reliable recovery. Furthermore it has an amazing amount of versatility being able to remove items, lure various checks to it with its insane coverage, and set stealth rocks against mega sableye. Its absurdly good at its job no matter what job you assign it.

lando gets worn down easily, cant take special hits for jack shit, and has a ton of common weaknesses. Its not as hard to beat as clefable and if you think it is you're kidding yourself. Im not saying its bad but its not on the level of clef. p2 explained it pretty well in his post why its used so much so im not going to repeat what he said.
 
Clefable avoids the 2hko from practically every non-boosted powerful neutral/resisted stab move in the tier with its standard spread and has the capability to cripple nearly every check to it in the metagame with thunder wave and hax its way past fucking everything. its by far the best wincondition in the tier but besides just this it provides a status absorber and fantastic pivot immune to spikes and reliable recovery. Furthermore it has an amazing amount of versatility being able to remove items, lure various checks to it with its insane coverage, and set stealth rocks against mega sableye. Its absurdly good at its job no matter what job you assign it.

lando gets worn down easily, cant take special hits for jack shit, and has a ton of common weaknesses. Its not as hard to beat as clefable and if you think it is you're kidding yourself. Im not saying its bad but its not on the level of clef. p2 explained it pretty well in his post why its used so much so im not going to repeat what he said.
Clefable being a good mon doesn't exclude lando-t from being better than it. Lando-T only gets worn down as it takes down the other mon with it, just because it generally can't deal with more than 1 physical threat on their team (generally kills 1 while setting up rocks, and can intimidate another before dying), doesn't mean it hasn't already done a fantastic job that game lol. Why does a mon have to suddenly be able to 6-0 a team to be good? You're never forced to leave Lando in on special moves, that's not a fault.
Yes lando has faults and can be played around (assuming you know the set), that's why it's not uber, it's still the best mon in the tier, fitting onto the most amount of teams and performing exceptionally on them.

Clefable isn't as bulky as you're making it out to be either, most offensive mons with a high base power neutral STAB move can 2HKO it without set up, you're acting like it has cresselia bulk lol.
 

Gary

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I always forget that I can update the thread too lol. Sorry! Tagging bludz to update the OP.

A ---> A-
A- ---> A
B ---> B+
B ---> B-
B- ---> B
B- ---> B
C ---> B-


Most of these changes should be pretty obvious and have been discussed a LOT over the last few weeks. Zapdos, Alo, and Duggy have gotten a lot of recognition lately in OLT as well as Mega Heracross continuing to prove its usefulness as a wallbreaker. Kingdra and Toed are both rain staples that will always share the same rank which is why they were dropped simultaneously due to how matchup reliant rain is. Crawdaunt has solidified itself in OU as a great Pokemon that teams actually have to prepare for now, which is why it's jumped so far in the last few updates.

As for a few Pokemon that were talked about but were never fully decided on, Suicune and Klefki have remained in their respective ranks. Suicune we felt had the potential to be A- but we are still trying to polish up B+ rank a bit before we try to decide if it still stands out more than everything, but right now it's definitely on the cusp. Klefki we just really didn't know what to do with it because of the lack of experience most of us have with it lately but it's probably going to drop eventually.

New Discussion Slate

A ---> A+
A ---> A+
A- ---> A
A- ---> B+
B+ ---> B
B+ ---> B
C ---> C+/B-
 
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simply put, the only reason lando/latios have such high usage is because they're holding the meta together against all the borderline broken shit already running around.
How do YOU define viability? Because "holding the meta together" sounds EXACTLY like something that an S-rank pokemon would do. You're basically admitting that Latios and Lando-T have the highest utility of any pokemon in the metagame, then somehow using that to argue that they shouldn't be S rank.

As for Martin, you'll notice that I didn't bring up win rates at all in my post. Win rates are a very poor measure of a viability. For example, if there was a pokemon that was so goddamn good that it had 100% usage, it would necessarily only have a 50% win rate.
 

ShadowSonic

Banned deucer.
just wondering but isnt Sylveon worthy going C ranking?
its a really powerful pokemon, better than shedinja and probably as good as other C- ranked pokemon.
and its also my favorite pokemon =D
 

AM

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I got ninjad by Gary so my points are a bit different, although I'm fine with making the moves mentioned in the new slate there even if I don't agree with M-Venu.
Lando-T is insanely consistent lol, it finds use vs every type of team, and is extremely to difficult to deal with because even if you "counter" it, it's still setting up rocks, dealing rocky helmet chip damage to whatever hit it, and u-turning out to generate momentum (and that's only considering 1 set).
Lando-T is easily the strongest mon in the tier, and that's reflected in its usage.

I mean the fact that lando-T is the most common switch in to itself, and that lando-t's are running HP ice just to target lando and chomp, should be telling about how strong it is lol.
I really feel like this is an exaggeration in regards to Lando-T especially calling it the strongest mon in the tier when it's usage is reflected to p2s point in keeping arguably way more dangerous stuff at bay, and the strongest mon is Clef while some Torn-T, even Weavile, are more offensively constraining on team-building than Lando-T will ever be.

The numerous amounts of counterplay possible to Lando-T on any given team without too much effort is enough to keep it at A+, and that should be the main point when trying to argue its placement. I don't like the perception of justifying usage rate as the indicator of viability with the exception of lower ranked mons, which are more keen on showing an improvement or slightly worse performance over the duration of a meta shift. For the sake of example you have a M-Scizor to S rank club when its WCOP winrate was kind of awful, its ladder presence is a bit more match up based these days, but I don't think anybody would comfortably sit here and say it's not a legitimate threat in need of preparation, accounting other numerous factors for the low W/L.

Putting Lando-T above Torn-T and Latios is a bit chuckle worthy to, at least in my eyes. These two mons put a lot more constraint in the team-builder phase than Lando-T does to me personally. I value viability threads that acknowledge more the threat management side of things than just throwing up glue mons as high as possible and assuming they're super difficult to handle or function in the way people describe. A good example is Heatran, how in theory its this fantastic rocker and provides lots of useful traits, but over the couple of months the Latios have been running more Surf and a telegraphed Heatran switch in can be easy to play on, putting it into 2HKO range or threaten it out with Lopunny, an amazing mon.

I'm gonna go ahead and just add a couple of things I noticed watching OLT and what I've noticed a lot of my building and building from peers have gravitated towards.

A+ > A : This one is a bit questionable, I may not be too sure either, but I feel like M-Diancies presence in the tier is kind of winding down. This is more in line with just dropping stuff that's got worse instead of raising stuff that has gotten better so in tandem with potential raises I guess stuff asked to be raised can possible stay. I haven't seen a single defensive build it can really hurt, lots of the grounds like Excadrill and Lando-T opt for Scarf as legitimate options, same with Latios, and I'm actually a bit worried about running M-Diancie like I was during the ladder phase because of the increase of Rachi among these other points.

A > A+ : More in line with sort of maybe legitimizing the A+ to something more sound. All of Garchomps offensive sets are really good, if there's something that is actually against Lando-T it's the fact Lando-Ts checks sort of maintain consistent through all of its different sets, while Garchomp is a bit different. The only good check to Garchomp from my experience is Clefable and Skarmory, who doesn't like Life Orb boosted EQs or SD sets. SubSalac SD is super strong against your typical Lando-T squads, where Lando-Ts nature of being chipped constantly puts it into range for a sweep. Life Orb same deal but instead provides more immediate power to threaten stuff like Skarmory. Garchomp moving up kind of brings up the point of why I think Diancie has gotten worse, as well as justifying the Char-X move up more.

I touched upon Heatran a bit, but I know that is more of devils advocate opinion than something obvious or something people will agree with so yeah.

A- > B+: I'm putting this here because I think all of the megas in A- right now are more functional than M-Alakazam in the current meta-game (exception M-Latias) but I know it's bad to throw everything up a rank to bloat stuff up. This might seem like weird logic to drop something but every single mega except M-Latias falls under that checklist you use to prep for stuff. M-Pinsirs noticeable presence in exploiting Flying weak squads, M-Metagross which is a beast that becomes more dangerous if you don't know the set right away, and Char-Y is another mon exploiting the Lando-T + Lati teams paired with something that can pick off Lati like pursuit support. I think M-alakazam is in a weird state right now in line with the Rachis, various scarfers, priority from the likes of birdspam, and its hard to justify HP Fire on it to dent M-Scizor a big factor in its lack of effectiveness to me.

A > A+ : This was kind of mentioned awhile back by SJCrew (forgot the name off the top of my head my b) but I think it's time to probably consider this one. I know CBB likes to go "Lol Band Weavile", I do to honestly, on that one stall team but it turns a team that is otherwise horseshit into something that can actually work and holds it together. On the note of anything other than its presence on stall, Life Orb variants, it's up there in terms of teambuilding constraint due to a lack of really good checks to it, which either get flinched or picked off overtime like Keldeo. Pursuit variants encompass that teambuilding support in removing key threats such as weakened torn-T and wall-breakers and it's priority and excellent STAB combo gives the user a lot of leeway into forcing switches in favor of the Weavile user to either double switch on or just spam an attack.

B > B- : The stallbreaker set doesnt stallbreak anymore plain and simple, which is one of the key points I feel why it was ok where it was. The nature of M-Alakazam being a bit worse ties in with regular Alakazam as well. The more imposing presence of stuff like Volcarona and Dnite in B doesn't feel right to say Alakazam is on an equal playing field where their versatility is a bit more effective, while Alakazam is a bit easier to read and play on. Still an offensive powerhouse with its Life Orb set but otherwise getting weaker in the meta.

C > B-: By the virtue of it being used more on Hyper Offensive squads, notably birds, but in general I've seen this a lot more and it's a pretty consistent Rocker even against Lopunny squads when running the usual speed + bulk. This is one of those where usage can kind of relate to viability.

A > A+ : Questionable to, but this has gotten more usage lately and can be the death to a lot of bulky offense squads relying on Latios as its checks I find. Tail Glow is still as good as ever Idk what to say here cause most people know what Manaphy does well. Still a very dangerous mon, a large reason why I hate using Heatran these days is because of this little monster right here.

Edit: Smogon Tour has started up so it's a good time to keep a track of good replays to see what can move up or down to.
 
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MANNAT

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Why the heck is Zardx not A+ yet lmao. Choice Scarf landot gets stomped by +1 flare blitz (+0 after intimidate), RH landot is insanely easy to wear down, and Zardx sets up on all the Jirachis and Zapdos flying around right now. It doesn't help that all of these bulky offensive teams flying around tend to use TWave Rotom+Scarf Lando-T as their method of dealing with Zardx when you can just run a hw user like Jirachi or Latias in the back and setup later lol. Zardx is a huge threat to so many teams with Earthquake as Quag, Bro, and Hippo are really the only mons that you can safely switch into Zardx more than once, and all three of them get boned by Toxic/any grass type ever. When you're using offense vs Zardx, you can make one misstep, let your landot take a small amount of chip, and suddenly you have to play super aggressively and are forced to make aggressive doubles and such because the second zardx gets to +1, you know you're dead. There is little to no room for error when playing against zardx and it frankly makes me scratch my head that this thing isn't at A+ already.
 
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How do YOU define viability? Because "holding the meta together" sounds EXACTLY like something that an S-rank pokemon would do. You're basically admitting that Latios and Lando-T have the highest utility of any pokemon in the metagame, then somehow using that to argue that they shouldn't be S rank.

As for Martin, you'll notice that I didn't bring up win rates at all in my post. Win rates are a very poor measure of a viability. For example, if there was a pokemon that was so goddamn good that it had 100% usage, it would necessarily only have a 50% win rate.
I understand what you are trying to imply, but them being blanket checks to otherwise broken stuff is not necessarily equivalent to them being strictly the best mons, of course they are still very great (thats why they are A+), I suppose the statement "holding the meta together" was trying to imply something along these lines, cases like this are not uncommon, like how Magnezone helping to stop steels from going rampage (this is an overstatement of its abilities because its not always like this, but is an example of a similar scenario) while not being broken itself, steels checking fairies, fairies dragons and so on.

My point is that altough being a check for a broken mon is certainly useful doesn't make the mon broken itself.

Also so the post doesn't deviate entirely from the thread I support CharX for A+, not only being one of the mos consistent answers to one of the if not the most used megas(aka M-Scizor) recently setting up a DD has become easier, its current checks are mostly compromised of ScarfLatios and Lando-T, the first one risks dying on switch and the second one risks losing a lot of momentum if switching into a DD.

I think CharX is a mon that has higher risks than something like M-Scizor because how splashable its checks are, but on the otherhand has incredible offensive presence because of its STABs and high BP of its moves, it can also hold the momentum much better than M-Scizor or M-Diance at the cost of it being riskier, since in the case of those mons its checks have a better time coming in, though are not as common(I mean they are common, just not omnipresent).

If M-Scizor is a low risk-medium/high reward, CharX is like medium risk/ultra high reward, so yeah, this mon should go up to A+.
 
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Mega Lopunny is one of the best megas in OU right now, it out speeds alot of teams and only struggles with faster shit like talonflame, speed boosted mons and mega alakazham, it demolishes alot of offensive teams which and thanks to fake out it can give out chip damage then wins vs mons like latios and keldeo with return or high jump kick and mega lopunny is very splashable on offensive teams I highly recommend moving mega lopunny up a rank to A+
 
i've been talking to people a bit about the whole dropping a bunch of A- megas to B+ and dropping some B+ ones to B thing that was discussed a bit earlier, so my opinion on that changed a bit. with heracross rising, i don't really think this is much of an issue anymore. i could definitely see both mega alakazam and mega latais dropping for reasons stated multiple times in the past like 5 pages (specifically AM's post about mega alakazam); i don't feel too strongly on either of these, so i don't really see a point in elaborating... especially when there's already been so much discussion on mega latias. mega metagross rising isn't too far-fetched, especially if both zard-x and mega lopunny rise. if not, i really don't think it should be placed in the same rank as those since they're the current "high A" pokemon. i don't really have much of an opinion on mega slowbro & mega venusaur dropping... i don't use or fight against mega bro enough to say, and my previous opinion that venusaur should drop is like 50/50 now after talking to some people.

anyways, i wanna focus on some of the A+ stuff on the slate & nom'd by AM:

(A -> A+)
zard-x is sooo obnoxious. it pressures you so much when building, usually forcing you to run landorus-t. yeah lando-t is good, but zard-x is one of the main pokemon that pressures people into building generic lando-t/lati/steel/w.e offenses. if you aren't running landorus-t to check it on an offensive build, you're probably stuck running scarf latios, scarf chomp, or azumarill to "beat" it. yeah these are good pokemon, but both latios and garchomp have other sets that are nicer to run if you wanna get good role compression out of them. mega diancie and heatran aren't good checks because zard-x can run earthquake lol. another huge point is how even with all the landorus-t usage, a lot of people are running scarf landorus-t and rocks clefable now, making it easier for zard-x to muscle past lando. there are more metagame trends in zard-x's favor for sure (some smallish some not-so-smallish); Littlelucario does a pretty good job of pointing those out here.

as for some of the other A+ noms made that i don't really have as much to say but still wanna comment on (
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  • lopunny is also super obnoxious, and i'd say it's on the same level as A+ pokemon like heatran and tyranitar. it pressures offensive builds so much just by being fast and having nice coverage, and it's super nice to throw on offensive builds that don't have a mega slot taken up because of how it can add some speed (not really full-on speed control like a scarfer though), and it offensively checks annoying dark types among other things. arguments can be made against a rise to A+ like how birdspam is being used more (i personally think this is just more of a quick laddering thing) and how bold clef is annoying for it, but overall i think lopunny is consistent and threatening enough to rise to A+.
  • weavile is one of the biggest constraints in builder. it has amazing offensive coverage, and some of the checks to it like keldeo and clefable can get worn down pretty quickly... keld especially due to total lack of recovery. one can argue that weavile is just as easy to wear down as a lot of its few checks due to rocks weakness + life orb recoil, however. AM already does a good job of covering things in his post, but i definitely think a weavile rise is justifiable if zard-x and lop... mainly lop since i think it'd be low A+.
  • i've talked to a couple people about mega diancie dropping, and i can understand where they're coming from. however, i think diancie fits in better as a low A+ mon than a super high A rank. if zard-x and these other pokemon don't rise to A+, then it'd definitely make sense for diancie to drop. however, when you add more pokemon to "low" A+ with chomp and weavile, it becomes really tough to justify a diancie drop.
  • i think a chomp rise makes sense to "legitimize" things like AM mentioned. i don't really have much to add to what AM said in his post.
edit: i think azelf and kyurem can both rise to C+... B- might be a bit of a stretch honestly. also, i think gliscor should drop to B+. it's like really low A- rank right now, and it fits in much better with the pokemon in B+. i can elaborate on this later :p.
 

HailFall

my cancer is sun and my leo is moon
Zard can rise lol its broken as shit. Hands down the best offensive booster in the tier (at least i think so) and theres not much capable of standing in its way and 75% of its answers are one time only (ttar, lando, etc). stuff like sr jirachi and clefable being common (meaning theyre unlikely to have defensive lando) is really good for it because zard doesnt really have many other splashable answers meaning a lot of those builds are ending up weak to this. dont wanna repeat everything other people have said so ill just keep it at that.

I think you guys really overrate lopunny lol i don't really think its on the same level as sciz and lando and rotom and stuff. it may not have a ton of super solid answers but there are a bunch of splashable soft checks to it that are enough to keep it in line. You could make a case based around the increase in scarf lando but weve been seeing a lot more bold clef too so ehh.

Weavile is definitely pretty frustrating to tackle from the teambuilding standpoint, as its high speed makes it difficult to revenge kill and it doesnt have many actual answers due to its impressive power and superb stabs. Its definitely really frail and easy to wear down and doesnt bring any defensive utility to a team but its so good offensively that a case could be made for a+. it doesnt matter to me too mcuh either way but i would have to say im leaning A+.

I'm fine with manaphy in A+ i agree pretty much with what am said. Not a ton of venu around meaning you usually dont need to restrict the set by running psychic and its so easy to punish builds that use latios as the manaphy answer with pursuit or whatver. Does a great job at dismantling bulky squads and is just a super solid mon right now.
 

MANNAT

Banned deucer.
is a Social Media Contributor Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus
I've got a nomination of my own after playing around with this mon a ton.
--->A-
My post a few pages back couldn't be more off the mark, Manectric is a fucking demon to face with your standard Lati/Lando-t/Steel offenses and can smash through most offensive teams with ease. 90% of offensive teams that I see these days either rely on Latios and/or a scarfed Lando-T to check Manectric, and that's just laughable. While Roost Latios is a pretty solid Mane check, if it's the only thing stopping a Pokemon from overwhelming your team, then that's laughable. First of all, Manectric can just Volt out into a mon that threatens Lati out and force it to switch, which means that it gets 2HKOed by HP ice upon switch in, so lol @ having that as your primary Manectric check. If you have a team with mons that Lati can roost up vs, or your opponent elects to use Latias over Latios, then you can just run one of our Pursuit users since they are both super splashable on offensive teams and can open the floodgates for Mane to bust through offense with ease, and mitigates the need to predict Lati switch ins with HP Ice. Aside from that offense, Manectric actually does really well vs birdspam, and its speed tier is critical vs those teams because unlike Zapdos, it doesn't need to take a +3 Ice Beam from Manaphy, it doesn't need to take a Banded Flare Blitz from Talon, and it doesn't need to worry about Pinsir packing random coverage moves for it, and beating birdspam is extremely good for an offensive threat these days. Obviously Manectric doesn't do very well vs fatter teams, but the spikes stacking teams that Mane is usually on have an excellent matchup vs stall, and there's plenty of offensive Pokemon in the A-ranks that are cheeks against stall (M-Gross, Azu, Excadrill), so its weakness to stall really shouldn't stop it from rising. Obviously Mane has its flaws, but they're not enough to stop it from being ranked in A- when Mega Latias, Terrakion, and Gliscor are there imo.
 

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