Resource ORAS OU Viability Ranking Thread V5 (See Page 43 - Post #1063)

New Discussion Slate

A ---> A+
A ---> A+
A- ---> A
A- ---> B+
B+ ---> B
B+ ---> B
C ---> C+/B-
My Opinions on These Mons.

MegaZard X- A->A+:Fenced. I haven't run a lot of teams or seen a lot of people use MegaZard X lately in the metagame, so from a usage standpoint, it doesn't seem to be a popular choice, but it has a lot going for it. Fire/Dragon is a very handy typing, giving it some defensive bulk that a lot of Fire types lack. It's also fairly speedy and hits hard when used well. I might change this opinion if I try to make a team using it.

Mega Lo- A->A+: AGREE OH MY GOD THIS MON. This monster here will reck your day if you aren't prepared for it. It's not the best for sweeping a team single handedly, but as a cleaner...OH LORD. I struggle a lot against Mega Lo, to the point where I am rethinking my team as a way to better check it. It definately deserves a spot in A+

Mega Slowbro B+->B: Agree. While this guy's a pain, he's not nearly as bad/useful as regular Slowbro in my opinion. Plus, there are typically better Mega options.

Mega V- B+->B: Disagree. Maybe it's because I play with this mon all the time, but I think that Mega V is definitely good right where he is. I don't think it's good enough to justify A- (he's weaknesses to Flying and Psychic are pretty awful and his only healing move has low PP and is weather dependant, he has stiff competition against mons like Serperior, Amoongus and Tangrowth, ect.). However, Mega-V can work both offensively and defensively, has a stellar movepool to work with, and its defensive strat combined with Leech Seen and Giga Drain make up for the inefficiency of Synthesis. Mega V is a great defensive Pokemon despite its shortcomings.
 

MattL

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If there's an agreement that Landorus-T is above the A+ ranks but below Clefable, then it makes sense to put Landorus-T in S rank and make an S+ rank for Clefable (or even putting Landorus-T in S-). Accurate portrayal of the relative viabilities of Pokemon is the top priority here, and although it might look silly to have two subranks at the top, each with only one Pokemon, that's how it should be done if it's most accurate. If we agree that Landorus-T is distinctly above the A+ ranks and Clefable is distinctly above Landorus-T, then that should be reflected in the ranks.
 
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If there's an agreement that Landorus-T is above the A+ ranks but below Clefable, then it makes sense to put Landorus-T in S rank and make an S+ rank for Clefable. Accurate portrayal of the relative viabilities of Pokemon is the top priority here, and although it might look silly to have two subranks at the top, each with only one Pokemon, that's how it should be done if it's most accurate. If we agree that Landorus-T is distinctly above the A+ ranks and Clefable is distinctly above Landorus-T, then that should be reflected in the ranks.
The only problem with this is it will convolute the VR yet again. Yea, Lando may jump to S, but then people will push for Latios because "it's better than the other A+ mons". Then mZor will be nommed because "it's better than the other A+ mons", and so on. Yes, that is a slippery slope fallacy, however, it has most certainly happened before. It's either S or A+. It can be S and still not be on par with Clefable. We don't have Ab for mons better than A but worse than A+. Plus we really don't have to create another sub rank for 1-3 Pokemon. . .

S indicates it is among the most viable, most versatile, and best suited Pokemon for every situation in the metagame. Landorus fits that. Yes, it isn't as abruptly metagame defining as Clefable, but it doesn't need to be.
 

Martin

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The idea of making an S+ rank is stupid because Clefable isn't like Primal Groudon or GSC Snorlax. When there is an S+, it is there for something which is the best in the format by a large margin to the point of complete centralisation, and this is most certainly not the case for Clefable. If the Aegislash suspect had led to an unban it would have probably reached a point where it would have been warranted 'cause the meta would probably have degenerated into people running Aegislash and preparing for opposing Aegislash. This happened in GSC, and this is currently happening in ORAS Ubers. However, when I build I don't bring Clefable and aim to beat opposing Clefable, and as such there is no way that a comparison can be made. If Clefable is irrefutibly the best in the game but doesn't completely centralise the meta around itself, then the only way to display that would be to make it the sole S rank. If people think there are other S worthy Pokémon then they should be placed in S alongside Clefable: not below it. Honestly if nothing were to be put alongside Clef in S I'd sooner drop a buttload of stuff than split S into two parts 'cause of this centralisation thing, but that's already happened once very recently and if there is anything noticably better than the current A+ ranks then they should prolly rise anyway 'cause Clef isn't that far above everything to the point where having 3-4 A+ ranks is at all warranted.

Edit: fwiw I think that Lati and Torn should rise before we even think of rising Lando 'cause they are far more limiting than Lando is and more S-worthy than it is imo.
 
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realllly dont see torn as better than lando in the slightest. despite regenerator its still exceedingly susceptible to being worn down due to rocks + lo recoil if lo or switching into shit if av. rise in zapdos doesnt really help either. but tbf the real distinction between it and lando in terms of viability is consistency. i dont want to parrot awful "hurricane misses so it sucks" arguments but consistency is a suuper important factor to consider when ranking shit. lando is consistent without a doubt; it does its job and it does it effectively be it rocks setter, sweeper, or revenge killer. torn just isnt. av lacks the longevity to reliably check stuff due to usually taking more that 1/3 of its hp as it comes in on rocks when its job is being annoying to kill. lando might get worn down but rocky helmet lets it take the opponent down with it. as for lo, torn missing its hurricanes can literally cost you games. offensive lando on the other hand has spammable main stab that cant miss and stone edge has acceptable accuracy (better than hurricane i mean) which, again, means its more consistent.
(will probably edit this with more substance later but on mobile rn)
 
I don't play much OU, but I'd at least like to chime in on the current discussion:

Clefable has set a high standard by virtue of being the only Pokémon in S-Rank. The tier probably won't be seeing a Pokémon on the same level as it anytime soon, but what I believe to be a good measurement of S-Rank potential is to see if any nominated Pokémon share the virtues Clefable possesses. They're pretty much intrinsically going to be at a lower level for the most part, but the more a Pokémon approaches Clefable's overall viability, the more chance it'd have to be S. In the case of Landorus-T, it's an insanely splashable and versatile Pokémon that can fit on a shitload of teams and is one of the first Pokémon that's often considered when teambuilding. That's two traits it shares with Clefable, albeit to a lesser degree.

Just my two cents on the matter at hand.
 

Albacore

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Haven't posted here in while, but there's a couple of things I'd like to say on the recent noms so I thought I might as well.

Regarding the whole S rank thing. I'm not actually opposed to Landorus-T in S rank just as long as Latios is S rank too. I really think that Latios is slightly more S rank worthy, mainly because it's much more necessary to prepare for imo. Landorus-T just isn't as important to take into account into teambuilding because its 2 main sets, Phys Def and Scarf, both have a lot of common counterplay, especially with all the Rocky Helmet users we see nowadays. Phys Def Lando-T gets overwhelmed relatively easily and sometimes has to choose what to check, and Scarf is easy to take advantage of due to its only way of dealing consequential damage being EQ, which isn't great to get locked into in all honesty. There's also the fact that you can almost always tell what set Lando-T is running based on teammates (aka does it have something else that can viably carry SR? If not, it's phys def). Dual Dance does wreck unprepared teams, but there's a reason it's so uncommon, that beain that it's kinda lacking defensively defensively. Everyone is so prepared for Landorus-T that Dual Dance has a hard time switching in without just getting smacked by an Ice Punch and getting KOed on the spot, unless it's going against a defensive team in which case it's probably getting phazed.

Latios, on the other hand, can cause massive problems for teams that are foolish enough to forget to prepare for it adequately. I get that Pursuit TTar is a thing, but that's often going out of your way to get rid of Latios. Most teams don't want to do this, and usually, you can't just slap a TTar on a team to cover Latios without opening up gaping holes in it. And besides, Pursuit TTar isn't exactly hard to take advantage of : part of the reason MLop and MHera are so good right now has to do with the fact that they can just come in after TTar traps Latios and get a free turn. So yeah, you're much more likely to be weak to Latios than Lando-T, unless you're addicted to TTar and use it on every team. As for the versatility argument, I'd actually say that Lando-T's variety of sets isn't necessarily a great thing for it. Latios really only needs one set to be super threatening and do pretty much all it wants to do, give or take a couple slashes. Lando-T has to choose between setting rocks and walling stuff, revenge killing, and wallbreaking, it can't do all at once.

Don't get me wrong though, Lando-T is an extremely dominant threat, for obvious reasons. Both Latios and Lando-T are undeniably meta-defining and really stand out in A+ rank. Torn-T is simply not on the level of either of these two, by the way, it's actually a lot less splashable than people give it credit for. There simply isn't anything Torn-T does which is as important as what Clefable, Lando-T or Latios can bring to the table. U-Turn and Knock Off are nice, but they aren't exactly uncommon traits and you can do without them. It's just that Torn-T just does these two things arguably better than anything else. As for Mega Scizor, I really can't see it in S rank given how common its checks are. Heatran, Keldeo, Rotom-W, and Talonflame are consistently #10 in usage, so chances are, you're going to be packing at least one Scizor check whether you mean to or not.


Diancie drop is probably warranted at this point, I'd say it's about on par with Mega Medicham currently. As good as Magic Bounce is, it's simply not as effective as it used to be, as you can see by its mediocre win rate in the most recent smogtour. Jirachi usage has skyrocketed (it currently has over 10% usage on mid-high ladder, and a quite frankly ridiculous 15% in said smogtour), people are more prepared for HP Fire and physical sets. And Protect is so necessary that you always end up with a nasty 50/50 on the first turn: either completely give up momentum by letting something come in for free, or just get smashed by whatever you're facing.


I fully back MMetagross rising, as good as MHeracross is I find it downright silly that MMeta is ranked below it. A lot of teams rely entirely on Landorus-T or Rotom-W to handle it which is nowhere near enough, and it gets more than enough switchin opportunities against most teams to really put a dent in them, especially given how easily it takes advantage of common mons like Latios and Clefable. The fact that it provides a ton defensively and still hits like a truck and has pretty good speed (especially given that Latios and Diancie commonly carry HP Fire) makes it work really well on certain balanced teams. Rocky Helmet being an increasingly common item is defenitely a problem for it, but i don't think that's really a reason to keep it in A rank given that Lopunny suffers from the exact same problem, and it's being nominated to A+ rank (which I also support but can't bother to talk about). It's severely underappreciated and really deserves to be A rank imo.


I do think Azumarill has gotten a bit worse recently (hi Tangrowth), but I don't really think it deserves to drop. It's still a massive threat to most offensive teams which have to rely on revenge killing to get rid of it, and both band and BD can be huge problems for bulkier teams as well. I find myself having to use RH Tangrowth on almost every balance team I make specifically because of this thing. So yeah, it is defenitely worth preparing for, much more so than any A- rank, and for that reason I think it should stay where it is.


The real reason I wanted to post though is to to talk about Suicune potentially moving to A- rank. This has been brought up multiple times before and I've never really bought it myself. But recently, I've tried the brand new VinCune set (which, for those not in the know, consists of SubCM+Protect+Scald, with max HP and close to full speed) and it really surpassed my expectations. It's a way better set than it sounds, mostly because Suicune's subs are amongst the hardest to break, and the extra speed really helps snipe would-be U-Turning Lando-Ts and set up vs stuff like Bisharp and Rotom. I don't know if it's going to be less effective as people catch on it to it, but right now, it really puts a ton of pressure (pun intended) on defensive teams while still retaining effectiveness vs offense, mostly thanks to Protect which acts as a way of getting back free Leftovers recovery, scouting the opponent, and trolling Lopunny and Medicham all at once. I highly reccomend you try it out it, it's very solid and imo easier to fit on teams than the more passive Rest sets.

I'm not sure if it's really better than the standard set, but Suicune has been bordering on A- rank for a while, and I really feel like this might push it over the edge. If we're going to compare it to other A- ranks, it's not as easy to fit on teams as Tangrowth, but far more threatening, and Terrakion is perhaps scarier to face but also harder to place on a team, so I think it fits pretty well there. In any case, there's no way in hell it should be sharing a rank with Mega Slowbro, which tbh is probably dropping anyway. It's a very solid mon that isn't used nearly as much as it should be, I'd like to see more discussion on it.
 

Martin

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I guess I'll defend my standpoint regarding Torny vs. Lando rank placement seeing as it's not something everyone is in agreement over. At the end of the day the vr is super subjective (my personal VR is v. different from this especially once you get down to B+ and lower) so yeah it makes sense that people would value different things in ranking.

I personally value a number of attributes when tiering--how limiting something is, how versatile it is, how splashable it is, how consistent it is and a handful of other things. However, the way that I weight these attributes values certain things more than others, and for me I ultimately how limiting something is has a significantly higher level of weight for me than anything else (it can affect personal ranks by a full subrank whereas I need to consider the balance of the other things for them to have any major effect), and at the end of the day Torny is extremely limiting whereas Lando is not particularly limiting. Flying is already completely disgusting as an offensive type as-is, but when you consider that traditional flying resists have a tendency for dropping to Torny's coverage it suddenly becomes very apparent just how limiting it is. On the flipside, when I prepare for Lando it is less me prepping "for lando" than it is me prepping "for Ground-types" and this just doesn't win it many points to say that it is better than Torn is. Sure it's versatile, splashable, consistent etc. more than Torn is, but the weighting just doesn't let it match up to it for me when you consider that Torny is also receiving "points" for those too. Like, seriously I think Torn is complete AIDS and that just gives it such a big gap over Lando before taking everything into account that it just becomes more ground than it can realistically make up for. Like, Torn isn't even that inconsistent. Sure, missing Hurricane loses games. But so does missing Stone Edge. What about the 7/10 times that it doesn't miss, or the 21/100 times that it hits and confuses? In these instances something is taking a lot of damage, and banking on a miss is really bad playing on the whole. Sure Lando can wear it's opponent down alongside it, but Torny has measures to ease off it getting worn down and pairs really well with every single form of hazard control that I'd ever consider running barring Mega Sableye (this is Lati@s, Starmie, Diancie and Zapdos fwiw). Flying is fucking insane before considering that it's resists die to coverage moves X, Y and Z whereas ground is extremely prepped for with things like Rotom-W, Tangrowth, opposing Lando (I don't get people who use non-HP Ice Helmet Lando as their sole Lando answer btw 'cause it just loses to DD Lando) and a fucktonne of other stuff being all over the place which it simply lacks coverage to hit on it's offensive sets and that it's defensive sets lose to (once again, barring the Lando thing which gets used as setup bait for DD Lando). No matter how much people talk about STAB accuracy or versatility or splashability it just doesn't make up the lost ground that Torny has on it from the standpoint of limitation alone, and while it "outscores" Torny in other areas it can't make up that ground on top of any extra ground that Torny makes from the catagories it outdoes it in imo.

Sorry this isn't all that coherent but yeah I did want to highlight where my personal weighting on this matter sits.
 
A- > B+: I'm putting this here because I think all of the megas in A- right now are more functional than M-Alakazam in the current meta-game (exception M-Latias) but I know it's bad to throw everything up a rank to bloat stuff up. This might seem like weird logic to drop something but every single mega except M-Latias falls under that checklist you use to prep for stuff. M-Pinsirs noticeable presence in exploiting Flying weak squads, M-Metagross which is a beast that becomes more dangerous if you don't know the set right away, and Char-Y is another mon exploiting the Lando-T + Lati teams paired with something that can pick off Lati like pursuit support. I think M-alakazam is in a weird state right now in line with the Rachis, various scarfers, priority from the likes of birdspam, and its hard to justify HP Fire on it to dent M-Scizor a big factor in its lack of effectiveness to me.
A > A+
C > B-
A > A+
I strongly dissagree with Mzam A->B+.

Not only because favourite-mega-bias (which I, of course, have) but because it kinda doesn't make sense. Things that are checked by Mega Zam (loppuny, weavile, manaphy, azelf, medi) are actually going up. Morever its only non-choicelocked mon that forces switch on loppuny and it's not mon with many switchins. Even like spdef jirachi isn't that good, you need very little damage to put it on 2hko range. It works great against all Loppuny BO and many balance builds which are using weavile or tyranitar as their anserw for powerfull special attackers, it gets free switch on heatran, etc...

Don't expect that Mega zam will work great against HO like birdspam (although it's only thing that can taunt azelf) or will destroy mega scizor. Even if it can run HP fire I feel like it's waste of slot for something better like protect or taunt.

I think that protect set is especially strong and has great synergy with tankchomp. Garchomp destroys all zam checks (bisharp, scizor, scarf lando, jirachi...) beside azu, and it provides reducial damage from phasing mons, which are nessesary for mega zam sweep. Most common thing sent to revenge kill zam is scarf lando and it usually goes for utrun so you can scout for that, switch to tankchomp and be really frustrating to play against. This ability to threat most common offensive core (volturn with lando-t and rotom) is not something too common in OU metagame. Protect has also other benefits like 100% sure mega against weavile, avoiding wear down from fake out (IMO big one) and sure trace on sand/rain.

And don't froget extra points for annoying baton ass teams! It gets boosts alongside scolipede!
 

Gary

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bludz Mini rank update to change up discussion a bit.

A+ ---> S
A ---> A+
A ---> A+
A ---> A-
C ---> C+


Okay so the ranking team is thinking of doing another restructuring of the ranks a bit because we are once again running into the issue with Pokemon that are too good to be in their ranks but not good enough to be in a rank above them, and vice versa. Please refrain from discussing this I don't want discussion oriented around deciding how we should fix this issue atm because we still haven't decided even if it's worth it or not. No we wont be creating another thread or anything it's just mostly a issues with upper ranks not so much the lower ranks at all. Stay tuned. Also with Lando-T moving to S, we've decided as of now that S needs to be a bit less restrictive to let Pokemon like Lando-T, who are extremely meta defining and a step above the rest but not necessarily as threatening as Clef, into S. Yes I know Latios has been talked about for S, but before we start opening any more cans of worms with that, we need to talk more about the restructuring of upper ranks before moving another Pokemon to S.

There are plenty of things that still need to be discussed but just wanted to go ahead and get these out of the way because I feel like we've all pretty much discussed them enough. Mega Medi moving to A+ all of the sudden may seem random but so many people were for it going A+ when it was originally discussed but we just kinda forgot about it and most of the ranking team was on the fence. At this point Mega Medi still proves itself as a top tier mega and with Mega Hera in A it would make a lot more sense to push it with Mega Lop into A+ as they are arguably more threatening and consistent megas anyway. Azumarill is pretty self explanatory it's just not that great atm. Kyurem is sexy.

Carry on.
 
In all honesty we should just get Latios scizor and Lando-t into s rank.people need to stop comparing these moms to clefable. The s tier defines the what gets into the s tier not clefable. So with that being said I think of these 3 mons lando is the best and scizor is the worst. However I believe all should be s rank for the following reasons:


Starting with lando-t this ones gonna be short because most of what I wanted to say has been said overall being the most used mom in the tier makes it the one you have to prepare for the most it can run a multitude of sets performs incredibly consistently and well with them and is literally the meta. I will get into something else about this mom on scizor.


Latios is really meta defining despite what some people have been saying. It singlehandedly made ttar and pursuit in general as popular as it is today and that's already shaping the meta but just the way this mon performs in game is also amazing. It can clear hazards nuke so much shit and is a great switch in to many mons. The only 2 things holding it back are the fact that it's pretty bad against clefable and that its pursuit weak. (Keep in mind it made pursuit popular)


NOW FINALLY the one I wanted to talk about for this entire post scizor. People really overstate it's weakenesses and understate it's strengths. First off it is the best Knock off absorber in the tier hands down. It walls tones of threading stuff like metagross clef (without flamethrower of course which is low on usage anyway) bisharp weavile tyranitar and its hyper offense set packs so much power. Now what makes it meta defining? U-turn. Now here me out you might say but so many moms have that move but this mon and Lando-t caused the entire meta shift from lefties to rocky helmet on defensive pivots. It literally shaped a part of the meta by itself if that's not meta defining I don't know what is. Now of course it's main flaw is fire. Not only do fire moves crush scizor but it can't threaten most of its checks. However what everyone seems to forget is that most popular fires are 4x weak to rocks and lose to the most common type water which has one the best moves in the game scald. So I mean it's kinda easy to patch up its one major flaw. And pocket fire moves aren't going to hurt scizor too bad not to mention the fact that Latios don't run hp fire too much anymore.


The overall point of this post is that we ant compare these moms to clef. The s rank is the s rank. There's a criteria for it clef fits it and so do these mons. And uh don't get butt hurt this is just my opinions after all.

Sorry Gary posted this as soon as you posted your heheh delete it f you want
 

Hilomilo

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I'd like to go ahead and carry on with discussion regarding the Megas in B+. Overall, Mega Venusaur, Mega Manectric, and Mega Slowbro have all faced rather unfavorable metagame trends that either make these megas' jobs harder or just are easier to be taken care of by other Mega Evolutions or pokemon that don't take up that slot. Mega Venusaur has more of an offensive presence and slightly better mixed bulk than Amoonguss and Tangrowth, but that's really all it has going for it over these two, as both the former and the latter's access to regenerator allows them to function more effectively as pivots, and Amoonguss's access to a 100% accurate sleep move and clear smog and Tangrowth's better physical bulk and matchup vs sand teams leave it hard to justify as the mega on your team nowadays. Mega Manectric has been hampered by the prevalence of choice scarfed Excadrill and Landorus, and isn't as reliable of an answer to bird spam as Zapdos, a pokemon that doesn't take up a mega slot, has reliable recovery, AND has a secondary flying type for Excadrill. Lastly, we have Mega Slowbro, who has no reason to be used over its regular form, who has the benefit of leftovers and regenerator, and also to be used over Suicune, who usually does a better job as a water type CM user.

As for the rest of the slate, Suicune's recent consistency and versatility between all of its options (CM, roar, sleep talk, scald, ice beam) definitely warrants its rise to A- among things its more on par with in Terrakion and Skarmory. Mega Latias has been in A- way too long, and doesn't pressure nearly as many prevalent play styles as it once did, and also isn't as effective of a mega when compared to things in A- like Pinsir and Alakazam. I've already talked about Cobalion, which (I'll say it again) should definitely rise to at least C with its ability to effectively pivot, taunt leads, set up rocks/sd and check specific threats in one set, and Azelf's effectiveness as a lead for bird spam and just hyper offense in general could also probably get that thing up a rank or two. Next, there's mega Metagross, which when compared to literally anything else in A-, is more than deserving of a lead, and Gliscor could probably drop too at some point. That is all.
 
Mega Venusaur has more of an offensive presence and slightly better mixed bulk than Amoonguss and Tangrowth, but that's really all it has going for it over these two, as both the former and the latter's access to regenerator allows them to function more effectively as pivots, and Amoonguss's access to a 100% accurate sleep move and clear smog and Tangrowth's better physical bulk and matchup vs sand teams leave it hard to justify as the mega on your team nowadays
Ok, so somehow having better bulk AND better offensive presence makes venu worse? What kind of logic is this? It's not just this post that makes this ridiculous comparision, so many people have done the same too. What the heck? Venu isnt outclassed by Amoon and Tang, it brings many things to your team that they cant.

Latios shouldnt move to S rank for one reason: Tyranitar. If the opposing team has TTar, chances are that your Latios is gonna die before it gets to do anything. Best case scenario is that it drops one Draco or a clutch Defog. I dont think something with such an ommipresent hard counter/ trapper like Ttar deserves S rank. Latios is a really good A+ but it's not S.

I want to nom Garchomp to A+.

Compare to everything in A rank, this thing is flat out better: more splashable, more versatile with both offensive and defensive sets, trolly speed tier, and it barely needs any support to function. Whatever role you give to Garchomp on your team, it will 99% of the time fulfil it: Offensive Rock set basically always get Rocks up, Offensive SD (and its variants) guarantees to punch holes in fat teams, TankChomp guarantees chip damage on physical attackers, etc. Chomp's checks and counters like clefable, ferrothorn, skarmory are all things you need to take into account when teambuilding anw. You very rarely have to go out of your way to help Chomp functions.

If anything, Chomp is even better than some of the A+ like MegaLop or MegaCham who actually needs specific team support to function. Chomp is honestly on the same
level of other A+ glues like Rotom-W, TTar, Heatran, etc.
 
Latios shouldnt move to S rank for one reason: Tyranitar. If the opposing team has TTar, chances are that your Latios is gonna die before it gets to do anything. Best case scenario is that it drops one Draco or a clutch Defog. I dont think something with such an ommipresent hard counter/ trapper like Ttar deserves S rank. Latios is a really good A+ but it's not S.
Getting kinda tired of this argument because it is simply not true. The most popular coverage move Latios carries nowadays is Surf which hits Heatran and Tyranitar for SE damage. Otherwise I'd agree Ttar fully counters it but the risk of surf turns the situation into a 50/50 if Ttar switches into Surf.

252 SpA Life Orb Latios Surf vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Tyranitar in Sand: 172-203 (50.4 - 59.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Also, as Albacore said it is not difficult to take advantage of Ttar locked into Pursuit so it is not like you want to get locked into a weak attack when there are strong fighting types like Mega Hera in the back. I think Latios deserves S as it can beat it's checks with the right moves and is all around super threatening. Defog kinda sucks on Latios and I wouldn't use it unless if I really needed the hazard removal opinion and can't fit it anywhere else on the team but 3 attacks Latios is nothing short of awesome.

Edit: Agree with your Garchomp nomination though.
 
I actually can't believe the amount of people pushing for Latios to be S rank. The amount of counterplay vs this thing without even consciously trying to prep for it is unreal.

For starters, pursuit is probably its biggest issue. It's incredibly easy to use something like Rotom or Keldeo to lure Latios in to be trapped. In terms of how effectively it fills its roles, its sorta meh at a lot of them. For defog sets, there's the issue of either having 2 atk coverage or no roost. This means that it's either super easy to wear down with Keld/ZardY etc. or that almost all of Clef Tran Ferro Chansey Jirachi Skarm are bound to wall it and get hazards back up indefinitely. As for 3atk roost or CM sets, they're both still quite easy to wall. There's still the aforementioned mons + like Torn-T/Tang/pursuit as far as direct counterplay goes, and it's not like Lati can lure in all of these pokemon at once. For example, draco surf hpfire roost may beat Sciz Tran to a degree but then it's walled by like Amoong or Slowking or something dumb. CM sets are still beaten by twave or unaware Clef, Heatran, Ferro, Sciz, many more pokemon, and pursuit. LO also isn't super strong cuz stuff like Slowbro Rotom Mana all tank a draco quite easily. Even the fact that it's a common switchin to water types (burns) and is also using LO means it's forced to recover super often and thus can't pressure as well. As far as choice sets go, scarf is pretty terrible considering its walled by like Slowbro/Hippo of all things and also can't recover so its only saving grace is that it can trick stuff. I won't even go as far as saying that it's good vs formulaic scarfrachi offenses cuz it can't even do 80 to a Manaphy. I can admit, however, that Specs is really good now and definitely the best set overall in this meta. You can run 4atk, trick, sleep talk, and it actually can 2hko Clef/Skarm while ohko'ing or coming close to vs most of the waters it's supposed to beat. On the other hand, while specs is sometimes scary to switch into there are still pivots like Torn-T and Slowking for scouting and it's still pursuit weak. And of course there's the fact that specs sets usually can't recover or defog.

TL;DR part I guess: While Latios may have high usage and unique qualities in being a defogger + Keld switchin, it is pretty mediocre at fulfilling its expected roles. It's not that great of a defogger, water counter, wallbreaker, or revenge killer. It's actually not a consistent pokemon at all like other S rank(s) because it'll often just defog once and die or be eternally walled by something.

Latios to stay A+
 
The idea of making an S+ rank is stupid because Clefable isn't like Primal Groudon or GSC Snorlax. When there is an S+, it is there for something which is the best in the format by a large margin to the point of complete centralisation, and this is most certainly not the case for Clefable. If the Aegislash suspect had led to an unban it would have probably reached a point where it would have been warranted 'cause the meta would probably have degenerated into people running Aegislash and preparing for opposing Aegislash. This happened in GSC, and this is currently happening in ORAS Ubers. However, when I build I don't bring Clefable and aim to beat opposing Clefable, and as such there is no way that a comparison can be made. If Clefable is irrefutibly the best in the game but doesn't completely centralise the meta around itself, then the only way to display that would be to make it the sole S rank. If people think there are other S worthy Pokémon then they should be placed in S alongside Clefable: not below it. Honestly if nothing were to be put alongside Clef in S I'd sooner drop a buttload of stuff than split S into two parts 'cause of this centralisation thing, but that's already happened once very recently and if there is anything noticably better than the current A+ ranks then they should prolly rise anyway 'cause Clef isn't that far above everything to the point where having 3-4 A+ ranks is at all warranted.
To build on this conversation... well, why don't we organise the S, A and B ranks by order of viablity, rather than alphabetically. So, Clefable would be top S rank no question, not for alphabetical reasons but because it is the most defining Pokemon in the tier. Landorus-T would be directly below it, cementing its place in S rank but below clefable because it isn't as defining.

I know this hasn't really been done before in OU VR, but it works pretty well in UU and RU so I think it could work here too.

Also, while I am behind on OU and far from very skilled, I do agree that Garchomp should be A+. It's just got everything it needs to be an offensive, defensive or supportive threat and is always a benefit to its team, never a liability. Its bulk is huge, its speed is great for such a bulky Pokemon, and its great Attack works perfectly with its great STAB combo. Even Clefable has to be wary around this thing.
 
Please don't. It was dumb when the Ubers guys did it and it's just going to lead to really stupid arguments about arbitrary placements within placements.

The system works fine as-is.
Is it really dumber than the argument that Clefable should be in S+ rank? I don't think so. And the way the UU guys do it, is that discussions about where Pokemon should be WITHIN placements (like who should be the top A+ or S pokemon, etc) are forbidden, and only the VR leaders / council / whatever can decide on those placements. I think doing it that way, with only the most experienced people making those decisions, can work.
 
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I dont agree with ordering mons within subranks but if we were to do so it should only be done for S rank just because that would allow us to show discrepancies in viability between, say, lando and clef without creating silly things like S+ or (even worse) S- rank. This would hopefully minimize arbitrary arguments over irrleivant placements like "is quagsire better than klefki". Though it is worth noting that this would leave the ranks looking exactly the same because lando and clef are already ordered that way alphabetically so lol.
 
Is it really dumber than the argument that Clefable should be in S+ rank? I don't think so. And the way the UU and RU guys do it, is that discussions about where Pokemon should be WITHIN placements (like who should be the top A+ or S pokemon, etc) are forbidden, and only the VR leaders / council / whatever can decide on those placements. I think doing it that way, with only the most experienced people making those decisions, can work.
Well it definitely is better than making an S+ rank, but I dont think this will help to solve anything in the long run, talking about mons placement just regarding which rank it should be is already time consuming, this would cause lower ranks to be much more neglected, since it would make the overall discussion focus more than it already is on mostly the upper ranks, people should just understand that a mon doesn't define completely what a rank is.

So this post doesn't become completely garbage I want to know why Suicune is still not A-? this mon is great currently because altough you can prepare for it sometimes you need to focus your attention on other threats, the prevalence of things like Lando-T means that very few times this mon will become a liability for your team, that is without adding that its most problematic checks are not particularly hard to wear down and/or are easily checked, is easy to splash into teams because of its currently good defensing typing and the ability to threaten most physical mons.
 
I actually can't believe the amount of people pushing for Latios to be S rank. The amount of counterplay vs this thing without even consciously trying to prep for it is unreal.

For starters, pursuit is probably its biggest issue. It's incredibly easy to use something like Rotom or Keldeo to lure Latios in to be trapped. In terms of how effectively it fills its roles, its sorta meh at a lot of them. For defog sets, there's the issue of either having 2 atk coverage or no roost. This means that it's either super easy to wear down with Keld/ZardY etc. or that almost all of Clef Tran Ferro Chansey Jirachi Skarm are bound to wall it and get hazards back up indefinitely. As for 3atk roost or CM sets, they're both still quite easy to wall. There's still the aforementioned mons + like Torn-T/Tang/pursuit as far as direct counterplay goes, and it's not like Lati can lure in all of these pokemon at once. For example, draco surf hpfire roost may beat Sciz Tran to a degree but then it's walled by like Amoong or Slowking or something dumb. CM sets are still beaten by twave or unaware Clef, Heatran, Ferro, Sciz, many more pokemon, and pursuit. LO also isn't super strong cuz stuff like Slowbro Rotom Mana all tank a draco quite easily. Even the fact that it's a common switchin to water types (burns) and is also using LO means it's forced to recover super often and thus can't pressure as well. As far as choice sets go, scarf is pretty terrible considering its walled by like Slowbro/Hippo of all things and also can't recover so its only saving grace is that it can trick stuff. I won't even go as far as saying that it's good vs formulaic scarfrachi offenses cuz it can't even do 80 to a Manaphy. I can admit, however, that Specs is really good now and definitely the best set overall in this meta. You can run 4atk, trick, sleep talk, and it actually can 2hko Clef/Skarm while ohko'ing or coming close to vs most of the waters it's supposed to beat. On the other hand, while specs is sometimes scary to switch into there are still pivots like Torn-T and Slowking for scouting and it's still pursuit weak. And of course there's the fact that specs sets usually can't recover or defog.

TL;DR part I guess: While Latios may have high usage and unique qualities in being a defogger + Keld switchin, it is pretty mediocre at fulfilling its expected roles. It's not that great of a defogger, water counter, wallbreaker, or revenge killer. It's actually not a consistent pokemon at all like other S rank(s) because it'll often just defog once and die or be eternally walled by something.

Latios to stay A+
"LO also isn't super strong cuz stuff like Slowbro Rotom Mana all tank a draco quite easily."
I have to make post like this.

In what dimension manaphy, or rotom, or slowbro takes draco easily? Are you high, or this is some kind of joke I don't get?

252 SpA Life Orb Latios Draco Meteor vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Rotom-W: 261-308 (86.1 - 101.6%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

252 SpA Life Orb Latios Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 24 SpD Slowbro: 324-382 (82.2 - 96.9%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

252 SpA Life Orb Latios Draco Meteor vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Manaphy: 277-328 (81.2 - 96.1%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

I don't also agree with other stuff. 3 attacks set can be really hard to wall if you consider that most latios switchins are trapped by magnezone, so if you have one at team they are not likely to come up. And clef is also hurt by mag a lot. With mag/lati core you actually can deal really well with hazards.

As far as trapping goes it's not so easy to trap Latios with surf. Most common trapper (bandtar) is 2HKO by LO surf so it's not a switchin anymore. And if you have to trap wallbreaker after it got a kill it mean that it have it's job done (that was big argument in hoopa-u suspect test ;) ). Weavile don't really want to run pursuit and it's might not even kill if lati stays in. Only reliable scarftar and av gross are only 100% sure trappers.

IMO Latios deserve S rank.
 
It isn't really too difficult to trap Latios. On Offense teams that really need to get it out, you can sack a mon then Pursuit it or even just predict and double. No one should be switching a BandTar into Latios most of the time unless they know for sure the next move isn't Surf.

"LO also isn't super strong cuz stuff like Slowbro Rotom Mana all tank a draco quite easily."
I don't actually know what ABR really meant by that but I think he is saying: "If LO Latios can't even OHKO these (non-spdef invested) mons (relying on their raw bulk) 100% of the time (from full), it isn't really too strong".

Anyway, Latios isn't exactly hard to switch into either. Yes, it does have coverage options like HP Fire and Surf, but the question is whether it can really run all these moves. Roost is needed if you want to use it as a Water check, Defog is needed if you need it to remove entry hazards, and these 2 things are big reasons for using it. Of course you can use it as a AoA, but those 2 reasons are really what makes Latios stand out from other AoA mons.

All in all: Latios -> S - Disagree
 
I think people are really over-exaggerating the difference in power levels between Clefable and Landorus-T. Obviously Clefable offers more utility and consistency compared to Landorus-T but it isn't so drastic to the point where they need to be separated by one subrank. S+ implies the Pokemon in question is like Primal Groudon level in Ubers, a dominant, broken and over-centralizing force in the metagame and Clefable is no such thing. If Clefable were really S+, it should have been banned. S+ is not necessary imo.
 

bludz

a waffle is like a pancake with a syrup trap
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Just a reminder that this is the Viability Rankings thread. Not the "How to organize the Viability Rankings thread."

Understand that the team has considered most of these suggestions on how to re-organize the thread already. If they haven't been done it's for good reason. Especially the alphabetical thing which has been brought up time and time again -- reasons why this hasn't done have been outlined already. Please continue to leave the organizational aspect up to us, and focus instead on actual viability discussions. Thanks.
 
"LO also isn't super strong cuz stuff like Slowbro Rotom Mana all tank a draco quite easily."
I have to make post like this.

In what dimension manaphy, or rotom, or slowbro takes draco easily? Are you high, or this is some kind of joke I don't get?

252 SpA Life Orb Latios Draco Meteor vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Rotom-W: 261-308 (86.1 - 101.6%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

252 SpA Life Orb Latios Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 24 SpD Slowbro: 324-382 (82.2 - 96.9%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

252 SpA Life Orb Latios Draco Meteor vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Manaphy: 277-328 (81.2 - 96.1%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

I don't also agree with other stuff. 3 attacks set can be really hard to wall if you consider that most latios switchins are trapped by magnezone, so if you have one at team they are not likely to come up. And clef is also hurt by mag a lot. With mag/lati core you actually can deal really well with hazards.

As far as trapping goes it's not so easy to trap Latios with surf. Most common trapper (bandtar) is 2HKO by LO surf so it's not a switchin anymore. And if you have to trap wallbreaker after it got a kill it mean that it have it's job done (that was big argument in hoopa-u suspect test ;) ). Weavile don't really want to run pursuit and it's might not even kill if lati stays in. Only reliable scarftar and av gross are only 100% sure trappers.

IMO Latios deserve S rank.
I agree with everything you said except for the last sentence - despite everything, I still disagree with Latios being deserving of S-rank. Its speed isn't as impressive as it used to be, it's weak to all of U-Turn, Pursuit and Knock Off and there are several key mons that threaten it just too much. Draco Meteor can't just be spammed with Clefable everywhere and Azumarill also being common, and Latios can't do much to Jirachi or Mega Metagross either. Bisharp forces mind games with Pursuit, Knock Off and Sucker Punch and Latios needs HP Fighting for the OHKO anyway, and Tyranitar (especially specially defensive variants) straight up beats Latios 95% of the time. Yes, once fairies and specially bulky Steels are gone Latios can really hurt things with a nuclear powered Draco, but there are enough key threats to keep it in A+ - including many of the other A+and S threats, which either force Latios out (Tyranitar, Mega Diancie, sometimes Clefable), force mind-games with Pursuit (Tyranitar, Mega Scizor), take momentum with U-Turn (Mega Scizor, Scarf Landorus-T, Tornadus-T), or simply are just threats Latios cannot switch into safely (Mega Lopunny, Mega Medicham).

Whereas Clefable and Landorus-T have immense splashability and are virtually always a boon to their teams, Latios has to be played extremely carefully around a large number of other high-ranked threats. It's not brainless, defining or centralising enough to be S-rank.
 

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