Resource ORAS OU Viability Ranking Thread V5 (See Page 43 - Post #1063)

there is basically zero reason to use mega gallade ever. like its not that bad by itself but 999 times out of 1000 you would be better off using mega medicham and keeping gallade on your team is actively making it worse. its just an incredibly niche option and stupid hard to justify on any serious team. you literally cant build a team where gallade is actually the better pick even if you try. it should drop further if anything.
I know that, but is there a specific reason/reasons why?
 

zbr

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there is basically zero reason to use mega gallade ever. like its not that bad by itself but 999 times out of 1000 you would be better off using mega medicham and keeping gallade on your team is actively making it worse. its just an incredibly niche option and stupid hard to justify on any serious team. you literally cant build a team where gallade is actually the better pick even if you try. it should drop further if anything.
that's such a mean thing to say about him! megallade is still quite usable in this current metagame. sure he doesn't have any raw power like medicham does, but in terms of utility and speed, megallade does this better. sure, megacham is quite a mindless mon and megallade has suffered from the after effects of being in a stupidly physically offensive metagame, that doesn't mean that the ability to set up with SD, cripple opposing switch ins with wisp / twave, knock off opposing items, pulling down opposing mons with destiny bond, ability to dodge status with safeguard should be overlooked.

you can make a team that is dedicated around it and it will still work wonders just like any mega in the game. support is definitely needed for this threat to thrive. the reason why people don't use megallade is simply because it's not as easy to build a team around him compared to megacham. that's all. if you put your heart to building something that supports it , i guarantee you it will shine in a metagame where dark spam is so ever prevalent and having base 110 speed is pretty important since it means you can risk speed ties at the very very very very worse scenarios.
 

Josh

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Mega Gallade has a slew of advantages over Mega Medicham which keeps it viable. First off, it's not weak lmao it's base attack is still very high and close combat tears shit up, just not quite as mindlessly as hjk. It gets knock off, SD, pjab, and tons of other utility options that let it beat fairies and psychics among other things. It has better bulk than megacham too which is very helpful sometimes. The extra speed is also a godsend. It's far from useless against stall; like medi it's countered by sableye but it puts in work against lots of other stuff. I've messed around with mgallade a lot and it's always put in work, +2 can clean up against offense and it can grab an SD fairly easily late game. That extra speed vs medi and extra power vs lope is very significant. Mgallade is a niche pick but very effective when used right; that's why it's in c ranks and not a ranks. Dropping it further is dumb af imo rofl
 
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b- to b+

specs is a savage. b- is way too low. having dark stab to spam is so damn good, breaking through fat shit like slowking and just nice neutral coverage all around to click. not being weak to pursuit trapping and better movepool (fire balst/ flame, flash cannon, uturn, etc., gotta love those movepool gains) are also huge distinctions from latios tha god. 98 speed is good against fatter teams, but it is rather low against offense, so watch out. av azu is wet ass.


c+ to b-

specs this is also a savage. ice stab is arguably even better, not even needing to predict around fairies and shit, just click your stab. fuck your immunity to dragon. has epower, focus, and hp fire to screw over ttar and steels (decent movepool, gets the job done), and draco still does a nice chunk anyway. still suffers heavily from hazards and pursuit trapping, though, so watch out. definitely better than mega sceptile and empoleon imo.


b- to b
been spamming this thing for a while and trapping shit is so good. you basically just dick all over the opp, forcing their diancie to eat eq and they cant even do anything about it. removed from play. even with its weak movepool, it still has some nice options. protect fucks over lopunny (really dope) and allows for scouting choice users. toxic annoys fat shit like slowbro. band makes its power more respectable, albeit losing sash blows. paring it with stuff like hydreigon, diancie, and tornt is clean, trapping annoying shit like chansey, clefable, and tyranitar for them. get rid of rocks and hf.
 
that's such a mean thing to say about him! megallade is still quite usable in this current metagame. sure he doesn't have any raw power like medicham does, but in terms of utility and speed, megallade does this better. sure, megacham is quite a mindless mon and megallade has suffered from the after effects of being in a stupidly physically offensive metagame, that doesn't mean that the ability to set up with SD, cripple opposing switch ins with wisp / twave, knock off opposing items, pulling down opposing mons with destiny bond, ability to dodge status with safeguard should be overlooked.

you can make a team that is dedicated around it and it will still work wonders just like any mega in the game. support is definitely needed for this threat to thrive. the reason why people don't use megallade is simply because it's not as easy to build a team around him compared to megacham. that's all. if you put your heart to building something that supports it , i guarantee you it will shine in a metagame where dark spam is so ever prevalent and having base 110 speed is pretty important since it means you can risk speed ties at the very very very very worse scenarios.
the difference between gallade and medi is that medi doesnt need to set up to actually OHKO shit, but gallade does. The need for sd is more of a curse than a blessing. Yes mega gallade has better speed but that would only be worthwhile if your build was like ultra weak to keldeo or something in which case gallade isnt even a good check to that and youd do better to just rework your team. stuff like dbond/twave sounds nice on paper until you realize it struggles to actually fit these into its moveset. Gallade wants to have cc/zen/knock/sd/ice punch/some random utility move on its set all at once but it just cant. Its 4mss is pretty bad idk how to describe it but just by playing with it or even just trying to find the set that fits best on some given team it should become pretty obvious to you. btw the issue with wisp is that its main target is lando which youre better off just killing with ice punch lol. safeguard is a medium tier meme.

Mega Gallade has a slew of advantages over Mega Medicham which keeps it viable. First off, it's not weak lmao it's base attack is still very high and close combat tears shit up, just not quite as mindlessly as hjk. It gets knock off, SD, pjab, and tons of other utility options that let it beat fairies and psychics among other things. It has better bulk than megacham too which is very helpful sometimes. The extra speed is also a godsend. It's far from useless against stall; like medi it's countered by sableye but it puts in work against lots of other stuff. I've messed around with mgallade a lot and it's always put in work, +2 can clean up against offense and it can grab an SD fairly easily late game. That extra speed vs medi and extra power vs lope is very significant. Mgallade is a niche pick but very effective when used right; that's why it's in c ranks and not a ranks. Dropping it further is dumb af imo rofl
?????? you sound like youre responding to a post i never made. I never called it weak, i never said it was useless against stall (though it essentially is, you cant just pretend mega sableye doesnt exist because it better suits your argument). I never said it should drop either just that it should sooner drop than rise but please continue to call me dumb to rack up likes if thats really the kind of person you want to be
 
Mega Gallade has a slew of advantages over Mega Medicham which keeps it viable. First off, it's not weak lmao it's base attack is still very high and close combat tears shit up, just not quite as mindlessly as hjk. It gets knock off, SD, pjab, and tons of other utility options that let it beat fairies and psychics among other things. It has better bulk than megacham too which is very helpful sometimes. The extra speed is also a godsend. It's far from useless against stall; like medi it's countered by sableye but it puts in work against lots of other stuff. I've messed around with mgallade a lot and it's always put in work, +2 can clean up against offense and it can grab an SD fairly easily late game. That extra speed vs medi and extra power vs lope is very significant. Mgallade is a niche pick but very effective when used right; that's why it's in c ranks and not a ranks. Dropping it further is dumb af imo rofl
Can say with personal experience, next to Infernape Mega Gallade is one my second favorite Pokemon to build around. As opposed to Mega Medicham who fits on more balanced volt turn teams because mega Medicham really needs maximum safety as mega Medicham is usually the carrier of said teams, Mega Gallade fits on more bulky offense teams in need of a solid fighting type to deal solid blows against offense and balanced. As long as you pair Gallade with Clefable you really shouldn't have to worry much about Gallade as it is sure to pull its weight with its strong attack, solid 110 speed, and decent bulk allowing it to tank noticeably better than Medicham.

Definitely recommend you try him out, definitely one of the megas I've had most fun with.
 
Looking at the rankings more closely, I feel that Hydreigon would better fit A- or B+ rank rather than B. Compared to Crawdaunt and Kyurem-B, 2 somewhat similar wallbreakers in B+, I would argue that Hydreigon, while less powerful, is much easier to fit onto to standard team due to its much better defensive typing. Hydreigon's typing and bulk grant it far more switch in opportunities than the aforementioned wallbreakers; its immunity to spikes, neutrality to stealth rock, and resistance to pursuit grant it the ability to switch in and out much more freely than Kyurem-B, while its better bulk and typing allow it to switch into a significantly greater pool of pokemon than Crawdaunt (i.e. Tangrowth, Heatran, Landorus). As stated before, Hydreigon is weaker than both these mons, but considering Specs Draco and Dark Pulse are still 1 to 2HKOing a majority of the tier anyways, the power difference barely noticeable. The defensive merit that Hydreigon provides, however, is very noticeable in most matches and I believe it makes Hydreigon a better holepuncher for most teams to use. As such, I feel that it should be ranked the same rank or slightly higher than Kyurem-B and Crawdaunt.

Dragonite should probably rise up as well (though I'm not sure by how much). Band is a pretty good breaker thats also capable of revenge killing a wide array of mons. SubFly is a good set too, as it can find a lot of setup opportunities thanks to Dragonite's good bulk and typing.
 
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zbr

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the difference between gallade and medi is that medi doesnt need to set up to actually OHKO shit, but gallade does. The need for sd is more of a curse than a blessing. Yes mega gallade has better speed but that would only be worthwhile if your build was like ultra weak to keldeo or something in which case gallade isnt even a good check to that and youd do better to just rework your team. stuff like dbond/twave sounds nice on paper until you realize it struggles to actually fit these into its moveset. Gallade wants to have cc/zen/knock/sd/ice punch/some random utility move on its set all at once but it just cant. Its 4mss is pretty bad idk how to describe it but just by playing with it or even just trying to find the set that fits best on some given team it should become pretty obvious to you. btw the issue with wisp is that its main target is lando which youre better off just killing with ice punch lol. safeguard is a medium tier meme.
yeah because I feel like you missed the main point of my post. My main gripe with what you said is this
there is basically zero reason to use mega gallade ever. like its not that bad by itself but 999 times out of 1000 you would be better off using mega medicham and keeping gallade on your team is actively making it worse. its just an incredibly niche option and stupid hard to justify on any serious team. you literally cant build a team where gallade is actually the better pick even if you try. it should drop further if anything.
I actually want to say that personally, I feel that megacham and megallade are two completely different mons with two completely different roles. their similarities end at the fact that they are both fighting psychic types with mega stones. if you want raw power and you have something to back up the speed that megacham lacks then by all means go ahead and use mega cham. if you want a mega that can deal with offense as well as having utilities tailored to the team, then you can try megallade. 4mss is usually augmented by team building and moveset choices on other mons to make up for certain mons. I just don't think it's fair to keep shit talking about gallade when the clear fact is that setting up isn't a poor choice in scenarios where you have momentum and it's utilities and ability to do decently in a metagame when it's well supported hasn't waned at all. constantly comparing a megacham to megallade will lead to people downplaying megallade's utility and even though it seems good on paper and bad in practice, I'm sure that having more options on a mon is much more better than having very limited options on a mon.

i couldn't care much about the rank of megallade, i just feel that we shouldn't be downplaying mons like these because they are actually good, just much less explored due to the limitations of megas.

e - also, wisping lando-t sometimes is the better option to keep the longevity of your physical megas as well as open up chances for other mons to set up / gain momentum
i never said it was useless against stall (though it essentially is, you cant just pretend mega sableye doesnt exist because it better suits your argument). I never said it should drop either just that it should sooner drop than rise but please continue to call me dumb to rack up likes if thats really the kind of person you want to be
uhm. at the very least megallade can use skill swap to sort of deal with megasab but megacham can do nothing at all. :/
 
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Martin

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at the very least megallade can use skill swap to sort of deal with megasab but megacham can do nothing at all. :/
Skill Swap Mega Gallade is a really shitty gimmick that doesn't actually let it beat Sableye; please don't bring it up in serious discussion

That said people do kinda miss the mark with the Gallade/Medi comparisons because neither directly outclasses the other in the traditional sense. Like, the only thing which holds Mega Gallade back is that it is in an arkward position where it lacks Mega Medicham's raw power/ability to run adamant and it lacks Mega Lop's speed tier (whether it be ada or jolly Lop) and, as such, doesn't do a very good job at dismantaling offense either. That said, it is extremely flexible in the respect that it's got a buttload of supportive options such as Taunt and Wisp that it can utilise as well as a consistent boosting move in Swords Dance, and this means that it can be built around and the team won't automatically suck ass. In addition, any MediSharp offense that has a hard time with Keldeo will likely be improved through swapping out Medicham for Gallade, and this means that it isn't completely un-splashable. It's just an arkward middle-ground pick and that just makes it a very niche Pokémon in general. That is why it is C+, and quite frankly barring maybe two or three 'mons (and Cobalion in C-) it is better than pretty much everything in C to the point that it feels really silly to move it down further.
 

p2

Banned deucer.
gallade is horrible idk why this is still being debated when 2017 is in 2 months

massive competition from lopunny and cham to the point where its better in a very small number of teams and even then it's pretty dung as a mon, i guess it punishes people that use like slowbro to beat medi/lop, but i mean medi and lop both have their own means of beating bro through tpunch/toxic, respectively.

2 entire ranks is enough to set them apart anyway, gallade should never come out of the c ranks though just because its so niche and absolute dogshit.
 
I apologize if this is post is unqualified for the thread. But I'd like to make a request upon re-evaluating dragonite's viability placement. Personally, with the rise of Fly set, I think it's the right time since it's getting some recognition and interest for whether or not it's good enough to be promoted within the list. Sub+Fly is absolutely astounding. It has obvious flaws that allows for counters and checks (i.e. Scarf Kyurem and Mamoswine as checks, Unaware Clefable as a counter). But it can setup in a lot of situations in the current metagame due to its bulk, type, and ability. Additionally, CB is also fantastic in the current metagame. Its immediate power and E-speed is really amazing. Offensive DD set may have fallen off, along with many setup sweepers though.

Through this mini post, I'd like to at least ask for a re-evaluation of dragonite, or at least some thoughts from the community. Of course, if you strongly disagree with me, that's alright. All I ask for is for the community to maybe put some time to think and discuss about dragonite's current state in the current metagame. Thank you as always.
 
I apologize if this is post is unqualified for the thread. But I'd like to make a request upon re-evaluating dragonite's viability placement. Personally, with the rise of Fly set, I think it's the right time since it's getting some recognition and interest for whether or not it's good enough to be promoted within the list. Sub+Fly is absolutely astounding. It has obvious flaws that allows for counters and checks (i.e. Scarf Kyurem and Mamoswine as checks, Unaware Clefable as a counter). But it can setup in a lot of situations in the current metagame due to its bulk, type, and ability. Additionally, CB is also fantastic in the current metagame. Its immediate power and E-speed is really amazing. Offensive DD set may have fallen off, along with many setup sweepers though.

Through this mini post, I'd like to at least ask for a re-evaluation of dragonite, or at least some thoughts from the community. Of course, if you strongly disagree with me, that's alright. All I ask for is for the community to maybe put some time to think and discuss about dragonite's current state in the current metagame. Thank you as always.
You forgot a counter: Protect. Pokemon that would otherwise be easy prey for Fly Dragonite can wall it perfectly. While Protect is not the most common of moves, Dragonite already needs a lot of babysitting.

Not that Fly Dragonite is anything less than good, of course.
 

Gary

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Ranking Update bludz

A- ---> B+
A- ---> B+
B- ---> B
C+ ---> B-


Again, another pretty self-explanatory update. Hydreigon could potentially raise to B+ in the mid future but we just wanted to move it up one rank for now because putting it immediately on the same level as premier breakers such as Crawdaunt and Nidoking is a huge jump. Kyurem is also becoming more relevant so that's why it moved up too. Mega Medicham was kept in A+ for now because we were very torn on what to do with it, and we wanted to wait a bit longer before making our decision considering we just moved it up. While most of us agreed that Mega Lopunny and Mega Scizor were marginally better than it, it's still unarguably the best hole puncher/consistent wallbreaker the tier has to offer, and with its strong priority it separates itself from other breakers like Mega Heracross. We felt like putting it in the same rank as Mega Lopunny is more fitting than Mega Heracross, but that could change if Mega Hera ends up dropping back down.

Discussion points:

A ---> A-
A ---> A-
A- ---> B+
A- ---> B+
A- ---> B+
B+ ---> B

We felt like Mega Hera is being heavily over prepared for atm and it's not as effective as it was a few months ago, although it's still good enough to fit comfortably in A-. Bro, Zam, Terrak, and Gliscor have all been brought up multiple times but we still want to see a bit more discussion on them. Mega Bro looks really awkward in B+ right now so I wanted to bring that back up.
 
M-Latias dorp, yeah! In-your-face-biatch!

I don't really have time to play so don't mind me if some of my oppinions are outdatted but I dissagre with two nominations.

Mega Zam
Everybody says "priority, scarfers, not enough power to OHKO some things". It is true but all of these problems can be solved with proper team support. In return you get probably scariest late game sweeper in OU. Protect Zam+TankChop (+maybe amoongus) is probably most annoying thing in existence because only things that can revenge kill Zam are scarfers and you scout in what move they are locked into. Things like Lando-T can force out Zam with u-turn only 2 times in game if rocks are up. Protect ensures safe mega against MLoppny, Weavile, Torn and few others and avoids Fake Out damage (sometimes this wins games). Another great partner is Spikes Skarm and it is also great counter to things like Scizor/Bisharp.
Zam is also one of few things that can stop azelf from putting rocks up (is faster before mega and taunt is another good move on zam, that helps with clef etc.)

Protect is good move LOL. Just use it.

Gliscor

Like month ago I would say "lol gliscor's trash" but then I realized that's not exactly true. SD or Taunt are pretty bad but there is one underused diamon and it's psych def gliscor! It has some major advantages of Lando-T (rocks, dual typing, u-turn, ground-rock coverage) and extra bonus in amazing bulk and toxic heal. You beat talon 100% and can wall some things (like bisharp, zard) even better. I think that's pretty undiscovered utility of gliscor.
 
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Hilomilo

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With exception of Mega Zam and Terrakion, I agree with the current slate. Mega Zam is not only a ridiculously strong special wallbreaker, but alongside plowing through anything that isn't named Chansey, it can scout out moves on scarfers and banders via protect, and shut down defensive and balanced cores with encore and taunt. Imho, if there's going to be a psychic mega dropping from A-, it should be Mega Gardevoir for reasons that people continue to state and are still valid. Terrakion on the other hand, is just an absolute monster with its band set, and by no means deserves to drop on account of how effectively it is against stall and balanced teams.

On another note, it is ridiculous to me that Cobalion and Suicune haven't risen. Cobalion obviously isn't the best fighting type available, but it is worthy of much higher placement than C-. It can provide a team with taunt, rocks, a decent offensive pivot, and a check to specific threats (like Pursuit Weavile) with just one set, and while it isn't amazing at compressing these roles, it can certainly do a hell of a lot better than the shit in C- like Cofagrigus, Goodra, Rotom-H and Chesnaught (which should seriously all be D at this point if Cobalion isn't rising). Suicune's just really good right now, and is able to make fantastic use of the meta's general lack of good grass and electric types. It can come in on almost all physical attacks, and is just so threatening with CM+Roar. These are two changes that have been past due for a while now, so cmon, let's move those two up.
 
I love Mega Heracross (and help popularized the bulky spread that became really popular/the new standard) but the new meta is really not favorable to it. Increased Flying spam negates your monstrous bulk, and the resurgence of powerful wallbreakers like Specs Hydreigon, Specs Latios, and Specs Kyurem mean that you're outsped and 2HKO'd (although they can't switch in on you and win).

However, Mega Heracross definitely deserves to stay in A- and not drop below that due to its raw power and bulk (plus if you run Sub, you can handle your checks/counters a lot better most of the time).
 

Martin

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My key issue with Mega Heracross as a 'mon is that it is just way too slow. Like, yeah you should be running bulky and if you aren't your brain is probably stuck in XY anyway, but the key issue with Hera as a whole is that vs. a pretty massive chunk of the meta it needs to take a hit before it can even move, and this just means that it can be really difficult to justify over other megas a lot of the time and is pretty limiting with regards to what types of teams it can be run on. In addition, this indirectly compromises its bulk in various respects because it means that if it switches in on something it is taking two hits assuming they don't switch (which they won't be unless they have something like Clefable or Talon etc. in the back and guess you're gonna use a STAB move, because lol @ consistent Hera answers). Like, it's really neat that it completely dismantals aspects of stall and whatnot, but a lot of stall teams don't crumble to its Rest variant anymore due to carrying stuff like Zapdos who is able to force it out with the threat of Heat Wave, and with Dugtrio p. much always carrying Screech (a sound move) nowadays it can't even use it for sub bait all that consistently. Additionally, the meta is much more offense-oriented than it was back when it dropped ABR stall on its neck and this just means that it has a harder time just due to it being much more pressured defensively. Without having any means of priority it just doesn't feel like it puts in all that much work vs. a lot of teams anymore, and as such I am in favor of a drop.

Beyond Mega Hera I can't remember the last time I actually saw any of the other drops on the slate aside from maybe Slowbro once or twice so I can't realistically comment on them, but their drop in usage does kinda indicate that something has probably changed to indicate that they are falling out of favor so yeah I'm not surprised they are slated to drop.

Also yeah doubling up on the Cobalion thing. It's super versatile, really nice for its ability to fuck with most Dark-types and not even hard to plug onto builds relative to some 'mons in even the B ranks. The fact that it is all the way down in C- is really messing with me 'cause it's better than a huge chunk (if not all) of C+.
 

SketchUp

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A --> A+

Manaphy maybe isn’t as metagame defining and splashable as other A+ rank pokemon such as Mega Scizor, Keldeo, and Latios, I do think it’s threatening enough to be considered A+.
This may seem as a bit controversial because nothing has really changed for Manaphy in the last few months. While stall doesn’t run Band Weavile + Chansey as often as it used to, Unaware Clefable is still a staple on stall and other counterplay to Manaphy like Shedinja and Chansey + Water immunity still gets relevant usage. And even though bulky offensive teams love to use slower breakers such as Hydreigon, Kyurem, Adamant Medicham and Crawdaunt instead of faster breakers like Serperior, LO Torn-T and Thundurus, there are still other changes on offense that can be an annoyance for Manaphy (Latios using Specs and guaranteeing the OHKO, Focus Blast Keldeo gaining usage and TPunch Mega Metagross to put it in priority range). In conclusion, there were both positive and negative changes for Manaphy in the past few months.
That being said, Manaphy is however one of the more consistent wallbreakers in the metagame. Even with all the metagame changes it remains one of the most threatening pokemon to face for almost any playstyle. The fact that Manaphy doesn’t have really solid counters means you either have to play aggressive with your offensive Manaphy check or scout its coverage moves. Both are really risky for the opponent and relatively low risk for the Manaphy user.
To give a quick comparison with other A rank pokemon before other people are arguing that rising Manaphy will result into other A rank pokemon rising: Manaphy is more threatening than pokemon like Jirachi and Slowbro, more splashable than Talonflame and Thundurus and more consistent than Charizard-X and Excadrill. Manaphy doesn’t shine in pure wallbreaking like Mega Heracross does or in the splashability like Garchomp does, but it does have a good combination of all these traits, just to a lesser extent.

B- --> B

I’ve mentioned before that bulky offensive teams love using ‘slower’ (< 100 speed) wallbreakers like Kyurem and Mega Medicham, and especially Choice Band / Specs wallbreakers such as Crawdaunt, Hydreigon and Kyurem are increasing in popularity because of the extra damage output and increased longevity.
Diggersby fits in the same category, but it doesn’t get the hype aforementioned pokemon do get. I think it’s somewhat comparable to Crawdaunt, as it is also a big threat to bulky teams, but fails to reliable break through offensive teams, with the exception of a strong priority move. Similarly to Crawdaunt, Diggersby can both run a Choice Band and a SD LO set successfully. In my opinion Choice Band is the best set. It enables Diggersby to break through common physical wallbreaker checks, while also being able to stay healthy to switch in multiple times in the match. For example: Unlike LO Diggersby, Choice Band Diggersby can switch in against Clefable twice a match, even if Clefable clicks Moonblast, without getting KO’d and being able to retaliate with a Return, doing 75-88% to Bold Clefable. Here are some calcs against the most common physical walls in the metagame to show Diggersby’s power. Keep in mind that Diggersby can outspeed all of them and is able to 2HKO them all without getting damage (bar Rocky Helmet).
252+ Atk Choice Band Huge Power Diggersby Fire Punch vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Skarmory: 238-280 (71.2 - 83.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
-1 252+ Atk Choice Band Huge Power Diggersby Return vs. 252 HP / 240+ Def Landorus-T: 168-198 (43.9 - 51.8%) -- 69.5% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Huge Power Diggersby Return vs. 244 HP / 216+ Def Tangrowth: 204-241 (50.7 - 59.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Huge Power Diggersby Return vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Rotom-W: 222-262 (73.2 - 86.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Huge Power Diggersby Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 88+ Def Ferrothorn: 213-252 (60.5 - 71.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Huge Power Diggersby Return vs. 252 HP / 232+ Def Slowbro: 220-261 (55.8 - 66.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Huge Power Diggersby Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Suicune: 211-250 (52.2 - 61.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
I can show another list of calcs with the power of Quick Attack, but to give you an idea: it’s stronger than Azu’s Aqua Jet, Crawdaunt’s Aqua Jet, Fist Plate Breloom’s Mach Punch (which gets the Technician boost) and more than 1,5x as strong as Adamant Mega Medicham’s priority.

D --> C-

I know Cresselia gets a lot of hate, like any D rank pokemon, but in the case of Cresselia I think it’s kinda undeserved. While Cresselia struggles from the same issues as other psychic types like Reuniclus and Mega Latias do, like the high Mega Scizor usage and the increase of pokemon like Banded TTar and Hydreigon, the gap between it and other psychic types is too big in my opinion.
Cresselia is really niche, hence why it’s D rank, but in my opinion it is way more threatening than other niche defensive pokemon like Blissey, Doublade and Mega Aggron. I’m not talking about Cresselia as an offensive threat, because Pursuit Doublade, CM Blissey and Heavy Slam Aggron all have more offensive presence than Cresselia, but about Cresselia as a defensive threat and as a threat to switch into because of status.
Other defensive pokemon in the depths of D/C rank, with the exception of Porygon2, fail to be threatening to switch ins: Doublade can Pursuit trap, which is a huge advantage, but it fails to threaten common pokemon like Keldeo, Landorus-T, Rotom-W and Heatran. Mega Aggron has to pick between coverage moves in order to be able to touch pokemon like MScizor, Excadrill and Landorus-T, making it unable to use status moves and threaten other pokemon like Rotom-W and Heatran (and vice versa if you do use a status move).
Cresselia on the other hand, is able to spread TWave against pokemon such as Clefable, Heatran and Weavile. This is different from Mega Aggron in that pokemon that are immune to or don’t care about TWave often dislike switching into Cresselia because they either fail to beat it or don’t like taking a Ice Beam / Moonblast.
What I’m basically trying to say is that mid-game Cresselia is way harder to switch in than other niche defensive pokemon, bar Porygon2, and late-game it’s way harder to break it because of uncommon weaknesses and gigantic bulk. Other niche defensive pokemon either have common weaknesses, hate Knock Off, or lack the bulk on one side (special for aggron, physical for blissey).
Obviously I’m not taking all traits of the niche defensive pokemon into account. Like Mega Aggron has Stealth Rock (which honestly isn’t that useful because the most common hazards removers beat it) and Doublade has Pursuit, but the main point I’m trying to make is that Cresselia is both harder to switch in and harder to break without Toxic or Taunt.
For the record, I’m talking about a rise from D to C-, so I don’t think it’s fair to only point out stuff like Choice Band Tyranitar and Mega Scizor if you’re going to react on this post. Even in the A ranks there are pokemon struggling from these metagame trends.

D --> UR

To be honest D rank is a pretty weird rank to talk about in general. Blissey is an example of a pokemon that’s just really bad but is considered viable because it’s able to counter one of the most threatening pokemon to stall. Doublade isn’t ranked, often with the reasoning that it fails to be threatening offensively and lacks reliable recovery. I think both are fair reasons why Doublade shouldn’t be ranked. However, Blissey isn’t threatening at all either, and also has other clear disadvantages like a low defense stat, so unlike Chansey it can’t switch in against pokemon like Latios. Blissey is ranked because it counters Manaphy (and a few other pokemon like Gengar, which MSab+Chansey also do), while Doublade isn’t ranked, even though it also counters big threats to stall like Mega Heracross and Mega Gardevoir. Doublade has even shown to be actually useful on a few stall teams, while I rarely see Blissey on a successful stall team. It makes literally no sense that a niche defensive pokemon like Blissey is ranked, while a slightly less, but still really niche defensive pokemon like Doublade isn’t. They should be in the same tier for what it’s worth, and preferably both unranked. If niche defensive pokemon deserve to get ranked because they fill a small purpose on one archetype without doing anything else, please also rank Arcanine, Crobat, Snorlax, Krookodile, Galvantula, Heracross, Umbreon, Tornadus, and Chandelure. And that’s just UU.

D --> UR

Unlike the OU room, I don’t think every mon in D rank is utter garbage. I think all the current D rank pokemon are fine where they are now, with the exception of Blissey and Roserade. Roserade is just not worth putting on your team. It’s defensive niche is outdone by much more viable pokemon and the ‘unique’ traits it has got don’t really work well in this metagame. It can’t keep Spikes / TSpikes on the field that well because it either runs a bulky set which invites removers like Zapdos, Skarmory, and Latios or it runs an offensive set which dies within 3 turns because it doesn’t check anything and gets worn down really quickly. The metagame is prepared for Sleep because of Tangrowth’s and Amoonguss’ usage and HP Fire / Ground is as reliable of a Heatran/Ferro lure as Surf/HP Fire Latios is.

B --> B-

Another Spike user that has been decreasing in viability is Klefki. I’ve always thought Klefki is pretty meh because it can’t do what it does best with the increasing usage of Rapid Spin Excadrill and Zapdos. Even if your opponent doesn’t have any of those, you’ll probably still trade your Spikes for Stealth Rocks from a Lando-T / Heatran / Garchomp. Sure, Klefki is able to check some dangerous threats like the Specs dragons (Latios/Kyurem/Hydreigon) and Weavile, at the cost of inviting some of the most dangerous threats like Rain Dance Manaphy, NP Thundy-T, Nidoking and MHeracross. It’s completely deadweight against stall because Magnet Rise can’t touch Mega Sableye, non-Magnet Rise gets trapped by Dugtrio and every set fails to keep Spikes up against Zapdos and Skarmory.

B+ --> B

Mega Slowbro should also drop. I’ve always been quiet opposed to this because Mega Slowbro used to be one of the most dangerous late game sweepers. Many people didn’t prepare for it that well and tbh people still don’t prepare for Mega Slowbro specifically. Still, Mega Slowbro is just so awkward as even a burn can put a stop to a sweep. It has a nice SpA stat, but without investment it isn’t stopping a Toxic user from switching in, tanking a +1 hit pretty well and Toxicing it. Even pokemon it is used to beat like Mega Lopunny, Terrakion, Landorus-T and Clefable sometimes run Toxic, pokemon like Medicham and Metagross run ThunderPunch to pressure it, pokemon like Keldeo and Zard-X can also status it. Even if you play it carefully enough, there will always be stuff like Crawdaunt, Hydreigon, Rotom-W, Unaware Clef, Mana and the list goes on. I think the Viability Rankings need to reflect that Suicune > MBro, and with Suicune staying where it is, dropping Mega Slowbro looks fine.

Edit: Forgot to mention this but Slowbro should also drop for the same reason

A- --> B+

Gliscor just isn’t as good as it used to be. Every offensive team is prepared for it because every team is prepared for Lando-T. Ice coverage is a staple on stuff like Lopunny, Medicham, Metagross. Pokemon like Keldeo and Rotom-W have always been an issue, but now there’s also Mega Heracross, Kyurem, Hydreigon, Mega Medicham, Crawdaunt, Suicune… Weavile is less common on stall but Gliscor still doesn’t break Quagsire+Skarmory.

I don’t have a strong opinion on the other stuff on the current slate. Suicune is fine in B+ imo, Cobalion sucks but I guess it’s better than other crap in C-.
 
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to B+:Agree
Gliscor has become less usable that it was in the start of this meta(and the XY Meta),as SketchUp said,offensive teams are prepared to this guy,with the likes of: Lopunny, Medicham, Metagross.Now that kyurem base form is becoming popular,gliscor also HAS problems
So,for all this reasons,and SketchUp's argument,Gliscor should drop to B+
 
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A- ---> B+ :Agree

Part of the reason why Gliscor is becoming less relevant in OU is because it is outclassed by Landorus-Therian. Landorus-T is the version of Gliscor with better stats, a better movepool, and a variety of different sets. Gliscor is becoming too predictable as it pretty much is only run with a Poison Heal defensive set. Mega-Medicham can guarantee a OHKO with Ice Punch on a Gliscor with maximum HP and defense investment with an impish nature.

Calc:
240+ Atk Pure Power Mega Medicham Ice Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Gliscor: 364-432 (102.8 - 122%) -- guaranteed OHKO
(364, 368, 372, 380, 384, 388, 392, 396, 400, 404, 408, 412, 416, 420, 424, 432)
 
Lmao have yall even used gliscor in the last month? Ofc its not doing shit to offense, its meant to break stall not eat an ice punch from Mega Medicham. Just comparing it to landorus is wrong because the two play completely different roles: landot as a physical wall and rock setter and gliscor as a stallbreaker that sets up on half the tier. Saying "oh lando and scor have the same typing so they do the same thing" has the same reasoning as saying "oh talonflame and charizard y have the same type so they do the same thing". Landorus can't eat a draco meteor from latios and recover back to near full in one turn. The most common stall rn (dual defog) is shit on by scor's taunt set while teams without quagsire get whipped by sd. Suicune rising sucks for it but if it boosts once it actually beats vincune 1v1. Gliscor is a matchup based mon that punishes passive teams with either sd or taunt. Base kyurem rising isnt going to affect gliscor's viability because gliscor isnt staying in on anything with an ice move anyhow. As the single best stallbreaker in the tier, it shouldn't drop.
 

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I can respect the opinions of those against the Gliscor drop, but I do have to disagree with the general argument that it should stay where it is. Sure, Gliscor isn't meant to tank ice type coverage from stuff like Mega Lop and Cham, but it becomes situational when Gliscor's your team's last mon alive against a poke with ice coverage (which is everywhere nowadays). Gliscor also shouldn't at all be declared as the tier's best stallbreaker with things like Heatran, Mega Heracross and SubSeed Serperior finding themselves on a fair amount of high ladder teams. The consensus of Gliscor's drop is that it just hasn't adapted to metagame trends very well, which is certainly a true account. Bird Spam is omnipresent, which means Talonflame and Manaphy are things you'll always have to worry about, and most stall teams that Gliscor is supposed to be good against carry either of those pokemon or something that can reliably deal with the thing, like Starmie and AV Tangrowth. Overall, Gliscor just doesn't really compare to a lot of stuff in A- atm since it's automatically prepared for by most teams due to Lando-T (yes, even stall, which it's meant to be really good against).

As for a few other things that I think could happen in the current VR, Mega Venusaur could drop, since it's been established at this point that in many scenarios, you generally want Amoonguss or Tangrowth on your team. Both have regenerator alongside synthesis (while m-venu only has synth) so that they're able to better function as defensive pivots, while Amononguss' utility options in spore, clear smog and recovery via black sludge and Tangrowth's ability to better take on sand teams usually leave Venusaur's slightly better mixed bulk an excuse of an upside when similar pokemon without mega stones are available. Mega Manectric could also drop, since its coverage just isn't cutting it vs crazy popular threats in scarfed Lando-T and Excadrill, and because Zapdos is a way more reliable bird spam counter since its immune to ground and can recover (a problem that with all the chip damage in the meta, is beginning to get worse and worse for Mane). Cobalion and Suicune should both go up a rank, but this one's for reasons I've already stated, so just check my last post on this thread if you want reference as to why I think those should happen. Dragonite needs some babysitting every now and then, but should rise imo, since its proven through the rise in bird spam to be a consistently versatile threat that you can never truly confirm the set of until you've sacked something on your team (which sounds like a good enough reason to me to rise) and between all of its sets to me, is just too much power and versatility to really justify being in the same rank as stuff like Volcarona, Klefki, and Reuniclus (all less consistent). Lastly, Gardevoir could drop, since it hasn't been able to deal well at all with the rise in Jirachi cores, powerful scarfers, and just fast physical attackers in general. It sure as hell can put in work as a special wallbreaker, but should definitely drop if Mega Zam is going to since that thing can bring just as much or more utility to a team.
 
I think the problem with Gliscor is not that is outclassed Lando-T, because indeed their roles are different, the main problem is that Lando-T has such an impressive role compression that is usually almost used when building a serious team, and if we go that way it means that Gliscor has much more problems lacking defensive and offensive synergy in most teams just because is usually more easy to find another mon that serves as a stallbreaker than finding another mon that covers Lando-T in its multiple roles, i think is a neat mon but suffers when trying to build a team with it, especially now because of how prominent Ice coverage is and having 2 low mons by OU standards having a x4 weakness to it doesnt sound very good, it should drop IMO.

I think the only mon that clearly deserves a rise currently is Suicune, the fact that Elec mons are not popular and Grass not having really hard hitters makes it difficult to break sometimes, we all love it and know how good it is.
 
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While I can agree Gliscor is an amazing stallbreaker, that's the only role Gliscor can successfully fill, and not only that but the amount of roles you can compress with them being executed well are bad. SD Gliscor can do some things but there are significantly better setup sweepers than Gliscor. And even then, Gliscor still needs to be a stall breaker in some way because again thats the only thing he excels at.

While I'm not sure about Gliscor's movement, but I feel like Gliscor's one key niche is important to his placement on the VR.

And while I'm not saying Lando is a better Gliscor, Lando is a better SR setter, a better pivot, a better lead, and a better offensive threat. That, and Lando has the ability to compress all of that into one set.

If you wanna use Gliscor for offense, you're better off using Lando.
 
Oh my god, Landorus doesn't outclass Gliscor, they're entirely different mons with different jobs that just happen to have the same typing. Gliscor is a more than viable stallbreaker, but can work more defensively with a sub-toxic or specially defensive role. It's even used as a stat receiver on certain Baton Pass teams.

The only similar (ish) sets are the defensive pivots but even they do different things, Landorus' role generally is to get chip damage on stuff throughout the game while keeping rocks up, generally on more offensive teams. While Gliscor'a there for longevity based reasons thanks to PH and Roost.

I'm not fussed where Gliscor goes, I think it's good enough for A- still, but not necessarily that much better than B+ Just stop saying it's a bad Landorus-T
 

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