OU ORAS OU Viability Rankings [Last Updated: 21/4/21]


is a Tiering Contributor

Art by Emrysthemay
OP and format stolen from AM and PK Gaming

Welcome to the official ORAS OU Viability Rankings thread (Ruins of Alph Version v2). In this thread, we as a community will rank every single usable Pokemon into "tiers." In this thread, you're encouraged to post your thoughts and opinions on the various Pokemon that are usable in ORAS OU and what tier they should fall under. Posts in this thread will be taken into account when deciding rank changes.

The general idea of the topic is to rank each OU Pokemon under "rankings" that go in descending order. Since this is a general tier list, everything is lumped together. There won't be any segregation between offense & defense threats.
  • EX: Garchomp can be ranked in A tier as an offensive threat, Ferrothorn can be ranked under A as supportive threat, and Hippowdon can be can also be ranked in B tier as a defensive threat. These are just examples not representative of their future or current ranks.
The Pokemon are individually ranked alphabetically.

The best of the best. Reserved for Pokemon who shape and define the OU metagame and are a clear-cut above the rest of the tier. These Pokemon are typically very powerful offensive threats that are difficult to prepare for and/or are phenomenal support and defensive threats that provide significant utility or defensive potential, respectively. Also the home of Pokemon who can easily perform multiple roles effectively, increasing their versatility and unpredictability. If the Pokemon in this rank have any flaws, those flaws are thoroughly mitigated by their substantial strengths.



Reserved for Pokemon who can sweep or wall significant portions of the metagame and can perform well against most play styles, but require some support or have some flaws that prevents them from doing this consistently. Supporting Pokemon in this rank may give opponents free turns or cannot create free turns easily themselves, but can still do their job most of the time. Pokemon in this rank are also known to define the play styles they fit on or are easy to add on any given team, while being able to carry their weight nearly every match.



Reserved for Pokemon who cannot sweep through or wall significant portions of the metagame, but can properly fulfill a given offensive/defensive niche. Support Pokemon in this category have flaws that prevent them from doing their job, are setup bait for dangerous sweepers, or often give too many free turns. Pokemon who are partially outperformed or struggle with taking on the Pokemon in the A or S Rank, but are otherwise dangerous in their own right and aren't difficult to fit on teams, may also fall into this category.



Reserved for Pokemon who can be effective in the right setting, but either have crippling flaws that prevent them from consistently executing their strategy or are completely eclipsed by a Pokemon in the above ranks. Pokemon in this rank typically require more extensive support, struggle performing against the Pokemon ranked above, and are difficult to fit on teams.

ORAS OU Viability Rankings

S Rank
:clefable: Clefable

A Rank

A+ Rank

:excadrill: Excadrill
:ferrothorn: Ferrothorn
:gliscor: Gliscor
:metagross_mega: Metagross-Mega
:rotom_wash: Rotom-W
:serperior: Serperior
:tornadus-therian: Tornadus-T

A Rank
:garchomp: Garchomp
:heatran: Heatran
:keldeo: Keldeo
:latias_mega: Latias-Mega
:magnezone: Magnezone
:manaphy: Manaphy
:tyranitar: Tyranitar
:volcarona: Volcarona

A- Rank
:alakazam_mega: Alakazam-Mega
:altaria_mega: Altaria-Mega
:bisharp: Bisharp
:landorus_therian: Landorus-T
:latios: Latios
:lopunny_mega: Lopunny-Mega
:skarmory: Skarmory
:tangrowth: Tangrowth
:weavile: Weavile

B Rank

B+ Rank
:chansey: Chansey
:charizard_mega_y: Charizard-Mega-Y
:diancie_mega: Diancie-Mega
:gastrodon: Gastrodon
:hydreigon: Hydreigon
:latias: Latias
:medicham_mega: Medicham-Mega
:scizor_mega: Scizor-Mega
:slowbro: Slowbro
:slowbro_mega: Slowbro-Mega
:thundurus: Thundurus
:thundurus_therian: Thundurus-T
:tyranitar-mega: Tyranitar-Mega
:zapdos: Zapdos

B Rank
:azumarill: Azumarill
:Charizard-mega-x: Charizard-Mega-X
:crawdaunt: Crawdaunt
:gyarados_mega: Gyarados-Mega
:Latios-mega: Latios-Mega
:Pinsir-Mega: Pinsir-Mega
:suicune: Suicune
:talonflame: Talonflame

B- Rank
:alomomola: Alomomola
:amoonguss: Amoonguss
:breloom: Breloom
:Dragonite: Dragonite
:heracross_mega: Heracross-Mega
:jirachi: Jirachi
:Kyurem-Black: Kyurem-B
:quagsire: Quagsire
:reuniclus: Reuniclus
:shuckle: Shuckle
:starmie: Starmie
:volcanion: Volcanion

C Rank

C+ Rank

:alakazam: Alakazam
:cofagrigus: Cofagrigus
:gardevoir-mega: Gardevoir-Mega
:gengar: Gengar
:gyarados: Gyarados
:hippowdon: Hippowdon
:kyurem: Kyurem
:mamoswine: Mamoswine
:manectric-mega: Manectric-Mega
:mew: Mew
:slowking: Slowking
:terrakion: Terrakion
:venusaur-mega: Venusaur-Mega

C Rank
:aerodactyl-mega: Aerodactyl-Mega
:diggersby: Diggersby
:gallade-mega: Gallade-Mega
:garchomp-mega: Garchomp-Mega
:seismitoad: Seismitoad
:victini: Victini

C- Rank
:azelf: Azelf
:celebi: Celebi
:dragalge: Dragalge
:empoleon: Empoleon
:kabutops: Kabutops
:kingdra: Kingdra
:klefki: Klefki
:politoed: Politoed
:sharpedo-mega: Sharpedo-Mega
:swampert-mega: Swampert-Mega
:tentacruel: Tentacruel
:togekiss: Togekiss

  • Do not suggest changes to the tiering system itself.
  • Post intelligently. Posts like "I think pokemon X should be in this tier" will be deleted.
  • No flaming and being an idiot. You'll get warned if you purposely do. This specifically includes making joke nominations about other users.
  • Usage statistics may be used to support an argument or a claim, but don't base your ENTIRE argument around them. For example, don't just say "Pokemon X shouldn't be this tier because they aren't used that often!"
  • Suspect talk, unrelated stuff, one liners that ask questions that provide no substance, something that doesn't really pertain to rankings or petty arguments about semantics and definitions, such as the definition of a counter as one example, will be deleted.
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is a Tiering Contributor
Changes from previous thread:

Metagross (Mega) A -> A+
Weavile A -> A+
Suicune A- -> A
Amoonguss B+ -> A-
Magnezone B+ -> A-
Alomomola B -> B+
Latias (Mega) B -> B+
Conkeldurr C- -> C

Lopunny (Mega) S -> A
Rotom-W A+ -> A
Diancie (Mega) A+ -> A
Manaphy A -> A-
Alakazam (Mega) A- -> B+
Heracross (Mega) A- -> B+
Terrakion A- -> B+
Crawdaunt B+ -> B
Gengar B+ -> B
Dragonite B+ -> B
Altaria (Mega) B -> B-
Scizor B- -> C
Celebi B- -> C
Zygarde C+ -> C
Toxicroak C -> C-

D Rank was removed entirley


The Stall Lord
is a Tiering Contributor
Well, this exists since basically a month and no one said something about this. ORAS is a living gen, and no one talk about what you should play in order to win ? This sounds a bit weird to me, so I assume people forgot that there's a Viability Ranking in ORAS. So I'll submit some changes proposal to discuss here, note that it's my opinion and that I will tell those thing like general truth so don't be hurt if you don't think like me.

Unranked Pokemon :

First, CTRL+F " Quagsire " : Not Found > Somewhere in B-ish ranks, it's something to discuss but this thing is a super reliable thing in stall, it screw over volturns ( watch for Rotom even if you can Toxic it on the switch with Chansey / Slowbro or even your Quagsire ! )

Pokemon that should stay in the same Rank but upper or lower :

This thing deserves to be above Metagross in the ranking, I really shapes the metagame, and force you to run specific pokemon to beat it, as opposed to Metagross that is a really potent Pokemon against you can play around ( Lando-T / TankChomp + Ferrothorn kind of check nearly every set or weaken Metagross enough to keep applying pressure on the opponent team ), Medicham is the kind of Pokemon against you can't really play around, it's wheter you have a switch or you don't have one, in the second case I hope you play an HO because otherwise you already lost .... I'll add that some options ( Thunder Punch / Double Edge / Bullet Punch ) allows it to muscle through its checks ( Slowbro / Mew ) or immune it to pursuit trapping from Weavile or help it to grab kill by RKing and abuse the Medicham ability to put K.O something when it comes on the field.

I don't agree with the " Mega Scizor is the best mega in ORAS OU ", it's true that it fits really well bulky offense / semi stall teams that lack a Metagross / Kyurem-B switch-in, that's true in gains momentum for a non fast-paced team, it does everything super well, it's the most well-rounded mega pokemon in ORAS OU, however, that doesn't mean it shapes the metagame more like any others, Keldeo in particular, and the fact that Metagross is less and less used as the main wallbreaker in Bulky Offense make this Pokemon less and less valuable, while being very good, it should drop between Tyranitar and Heatran.

The best Medicham SI is a mid A- Pokemon ? Excuse me ? This thing checks/counter everything, from Metagross to Charizard, including Lopunny and Medicham, this is a top A- pokemon, and I'd argue for this being above Excadrill in the A rank, but at least top A-.

Gastrodon is great, but it doesn't deserves being a top B pokemon, it's a weaker alternative to Slowking / Hippowdon but it's a nice mix between them, I'd put it bottom B rank.

Hippowdon always been a solid pick, being able to check or counter a bench of Pokemon, I don't think the raise of Medicham made him that worst than before, it should be mid / high B Rank, it punishes Volturn hardly with sand + rocky helmet, immunity to voltswitch and it's ability to use Toxic, Whirlwind and the SR, really strong Pokemon overall.

Pokemon that should raise in rank :

This thing is almost flawless, you can use it to do whatever you want, you can pressure teams with 3 atk, you can defog versus Ferrothorn, you can check Keldeo, Scizor, even Metagross and Medicham to an extend ( I emphasis the check on the two laters ), the only big weakness you can abuse is Band Tyranitar, well, Dugtrio won't patch this anymore, but you use Latios right ? Zapdos is less weak to Band Tyranitar than them, no reason not to use it. Shoud raise at least to top A, bottom A+ would be ideal.

Mew is pretty similar to Zapdos, almost flawless, only thing it really fear is Pursuit Band Weavile, because it can outspeed and burn band tyranitar and then take nothing from Crunch (49.1 - 58% on the 248/12+ Mew, what is the MINIMUM of bulk a Mew should run to avoid being 2HKO by Medicham HJK after ). It can lure Heatran with Earth Power, it can defog, a lot of team will struggle versus it, it should be somewhere in A

People who use Medicham will find a way to deal with Slowbro, usually that will not be Toxic Spikes, because the only good setter is Dragalge ( Tentacruel isn't good anymore since Sableye is banned imo ), but they usually have trouble with a good Mega Slowbro team, add the fact that no Mega teams are more and more considered, so using your megaslot for that isn't a big deal and you have a super good " anti-meta " pick, that can run many set, the CM one is difficult to stop but you could use Fire Blast Toxic Scald Slack Off, or Psychic on Toxic, or on Fire Blast, there's plenty of options, really versatile Pokemon, should be A or Top A-.

This is Bottom B. I think I understand why : " Band Tyranitar is everywhere, Gastrondon is trending, Manectric isn't a top pokemon ". I agree with that, however, Manectric is still a great pokemon that RK plenty of top ranked pokemon, abuse of EH that are not that hard to keep on the field in ORAS OU versus most of the teams, and, this is a more shaky argument, can abuse of metagame trending by running HP Grass instead of HP Ice, the only thing you'll regret is the fact that you can't touch Gliscor / Landorus, but they won't switch on you unless you revealed HP Grass ( what gave you the advantage, because you usually took a kill ), and you can patch that with your teambuild. Note that HP Grass gives you an instant edge versus the teams that rely on Gastrodon / Quagsire as their volturn answer, should be just bottom Alakazam-Mega in B+.

Well, that's the same argue, Specs Raikou hits really really hard and is a super underrated imo, AV Raikou was popular back in the days and I think it's decent nowadays too. I'd put it near Latias.

Note : 252 SpA Choice Specs Raikou Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 8 SpD Landorus-Therian: 143-169 (37.4 - 44.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
You can use HP Grass without fear of Landorus, Shadow Ball hits hard enough if you considere that your team will patch the lack of HP Ice.

Well, that's a super strong Wallbreaker that gives you Toxic Spikes support, what many top threats benefits from, it's a great check to things like Thundurus, Clefable, etc ... there's nothing wrong using that, in addition you can opt for a offensive or a defensive set / spread depending of your team, really valuable and rare niche, should be top B-.

This is fine on Hyper Offensive builds, it comes on Charizard Y, DD and weaken Landorus, acces to Extreme Speed is nice too, I used it a bit on Dragmag few years ago, worked surprisingly well, it's definitely better than all the C and C+ mons, it should be on the top C+. I know this does not have Thousand Arrows in ORAS btw.

Swampert is a really potent wallbreaker in Rain, and is really dangerous very nearly every kind of build, Rain is somehow unexpected nowaday, I think it's at least as good as Diggersby and co, should be Top B- considering it needs a ton of support due to the specific nature of rain teams.

hereis a tournament replay where you can see Sableye shine, it's a really potent Pokemon , the only Pokemon that can come on Medicham Mega without being Pursuit trapped at all, and a very potent stallbreaker since his Mega Stone was banned from OU, it's not as good as some other pokemon but it has a niche, and it his definitely better than Tentacruel, therefor it should go to mid / high C+.

Volcarona really needs a ton of support, but this is on the top of what a cleaner can offers, it will shape your team, you'll need to support it, but the reward is insane, you can often force your opponent to let you a setup window, and if this thing can setup the game is over, it doesn't really shine the metagame but it's really potent and anyone should watch for it, I'd put it A- between Manaphy and Amoonguss.

Pokemon that should drop in rank :

I know there's not many Keldeo switch ins, but that's not because you find a counter that the pokemon is THAT great, it's massively weak to pursuit trapping ( what you really dislike when you're searching for a Keldeo counter, especially when the Pokemon fits better on non-fast paced teams ). It can be easily overwhelmed by the physical threats that dominate the metagame, this is niche, and it deserves a niche ranking, I'd argue for B-.

It stands versus SR Tran and non-CM SR Clefable, checks Keldeo, that's all, it's pressurable super easily with passive damages, and it's weak to pursuit trap, which is bad when you want to spin, or check Keldeo, this thing have to drop to B or even B-.

I think this is pretty similar to Kyurem-Black or Heracross-Mega, it's really hurt by the top tiers, Metagross, Weavile, Scizor, Jirachi, Excadrill, and even Bullet Punch Medicham, it's slow too and not that bulky, something like Specs Keldeo can take a kill back each time for example, not a bad Pokemon but it does not deserve the A, should be top B+.

It can't trap Skarm because of Shedshell, Scizor often pack alot of speed in order to avoid being trapped, so it's a Ferrothorn remover. The Pokemon itself isn't great, no defensive utility, easily abusable by a majority of wallbreakers or fast hitters ( Medicham, Metagross, Lopunny, Keldeo, Excadrill ... should be B+ or even B.

Breloom is an " OK " pokemon, but Amoonguss is trending, everything revange kill it, and even if you play sash you can't keep up with an field freed of EH, if you want to play it you'll often end with a LoomSharp Offense, SD + Mach Punch is cool but Latios is everywhere too, it's good on paper, it works rarely in practice, deserves a Top B- rank alongside Diggersby as a great slow Wallbreaker imo.

This is pretty similar to Diggersby or Breloom, but it isn't really threatened by the top tiers, it's slow tho, like really slow, I'd put it either Top B- or bottom B.

I never saw that work, how is this at the same rank as Kingdra ? If you run spin you can't be really effective, if you don't run it you'll end up with a really specific rain, in a metagame where one can argue that rain is already overly specific. I'd drop it to C+ or even C, this can be really potent but it's definitely a super specific tournament pick.

Well, I guess I finished, it takes me a long time to write, so thanks you for reading, I'd be glad to read you answers too, have a nice day :]
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Salut Zok,

I'll just lay down some thoughts about the main points you rose in your post (I'm too lazy to cover everything you wrote about, sorry D:)

Stall being a niche playstyle in ORAS right now, Quag didn’t come to our minds when we went over the rankings but it deserves to be in there for sure. I’d rank it in B- as in my opinion, it sits with other Pokemon that only shine in a specific environment like Kingdra.

Medicham is one of the biggest threats in ORAS but it isn’t as metagame defining as Metagross for a reason : it completely lacks any defensive utility. Metagross’s stats are sky high almost everywhere and as such, it’s not only a wallbreaker but also a Fairy resist, a Dragon check, it outspeeds Keldeo (one of Medi’s most common revenge killers, just to show you how important the speed gap between those two behemoths is) and can even be a Pursuiter.
Medicham is often checked through revenge killing : Metagross, Tornadus, Latios, Keldeo, Thundurus, Scarfed Landorus, Starmie are all really common and prevent Medi from rampaging through everything thanks to their speed and decent defenses.
The other way to check Medicham is to pack a sturdy psychic type or a Bold Clefable if Zen Headbutt isn’t feared. Slowbro, Mew and Clef aren’t rare at all and give Medi a hard time.
So while on paper, Medi is unbeatable, it’s actually not as incredible on the battlefield mostly because it doesn’t bring any offensive utility (it has resistances to both fighting and rock but it can’t really use them well, although taking nothing from SR is a cool feature). Still a complete beast though

It can’t sweep teams by itself but it has a very tiny number of checks which get worn out quickly thanks to U-Turn and Stealth Rock, while bringing invaluable defensive utility. It's similar to Keldeo in this way : they both have sturdy and common checks but they can overwhelm them by themselves. Also, a Pokemon able to check Metagross and Weavile - two of the most annoying Pokemon to face in offense - while not being deadweight with SD and priority and its resistances can’t really move down. Still pretty hard to compare Scizor, Meta, Tyra and Heatran which are all amazing in their own right but do completely different things, I feel like lowering Scizor by a subrank or two wouldn't change much and would actually be prone to personal bias.

I think it’s correctly ranked, it’s a good Pokemon but it lacks some stuff compared to other mons. On bulky offense, it’s often better to have a hazard remover (Latios/Starmie) or a Weavile check (Suicune/Alomomola) than Slowbro which can check Keldeo, Lopunny, Metagross and Medicham but gets pressured by hazards and status (Heatran ironically being a massive danger to it). It’s still good but I don’t see it above stuff like Gliscor or Garchomp.

In a similar fashion to Slowbro, it’s a good mon with the ability to check many serious threats but it gets pressured by SR, Knock Off and Status too easily on Bulky Offense/Balanced. It’s extremely potent on Stall too but I think it’s correctly ranked here, it’s not as splashable or dangerous as stuff like Cune or Weavile and doesn’t deserve to be as high as A+ in my opinion. Also it’s not really a Keldeo check as it gets obliterated by the Specs variant while suffering in the long run against the other ones.


The Stall Lord
is a Tiering Contributor
Hey Mounts ! Glad you answered

I'd rather agree with most of the things you say, I read again what I posted and I figured that my mindset is really focus on Medicham when I'm thinking about ORAS, as you can see an overwhelming majority of the Pokemon I submit for a rank change interact more or less with Medicham, as counterplays, or as super good teammate.

I personnaly don't feel like the Mega-Steels ( Gross and Zor ) are that strong in ORAS nowadays, but my point of view can be biased by the team I usually run / build, which are slow bulky offense ( often without scarf etc ) or stalls. However I still think there's such underrated Pokemons in my list ( Slowbro / Zap in particular ). I guess the ST will help me to see clearly how the metagame truely is right now.
i think pokemon should go back to being organized alphabetically within the rankings themselves.

while this VR thread won't have much contention (especially compared to the SM OU one), i think organizing pokemon by usefulness within the rankings themselves still causes really unnecessary debate / discussion. also, this doesn't even really help beginners much since it's such a subjective thing to begin with. using the simple and proven VR format still gives beginners a sufficient outline, and it minimizes unnecessary discussion.

edit: while cutting unnecessary discussion may not sound that important given this thread's activity levels, i anticipate more discussion and noms once SPL ends, as that is what usually happens with the RoA VR threads afaik. also, it's just the principle that counts, but i understand that this is subjective!

very late edit2: awhile back on discord jacob explained to me that all RoA VR threads order pokemon by usefulness, so i retract this idea.
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is a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus

Since the SPL regular season is coming to an end, I'm gonna make some rise noms based on how the metagame's changed over the course of this season. Keep in mind that I have strong opinions and some people may not agree with a couple of these rises lol. I may or may not make a proposed drops later on, but I just wanted to talk about some stuff that's stood out recently, at least for me.​


Keldeo is a metagame defining force that's seemingly been controling the metagame so far this SPL, causing teambuilding to revolve around effectively checking it while still having a solid backbone otherwise, with mons like Colbur Jellicent, Starmie, and Amoonguss gaining a ton of usage this SPL compared to the past ORAS metagame. This thing paired with Pursuit trapping support from like CB Tyranitar or Weavile can wreak havoc vs a lot of teams, especially those that still rely on Latios as their primary Keldeo check. They even have great offensive synergy in terms of pressuring things that check Keldeo, even if they can't Pursuit trap them, as CB Edge from Tar does an absurd amount to Jellicent and makes it have to play flawlessly to be able to check Keldeo later in the game, and that's assuming that it isn't running some tech for it. That leads me into my next point which is that Keldeo's ability to adapt to its check has been shown very well this SPL, with "Updated Keldeo" being used to combat the rising Jellicent usage to cteam some people in SPL along with techs like Scarf Toxic and similar inventions achieving the same result. This thing is just so good and the meta has kinda gravitated around it so far this SPL, so I think it's definitely deserving of S rank.
Following its ban from SM, players realized just how good Mega Metagross could be and have been spamming it this SPL. It has quickly risen to be the premier Mega Pokemon in the tier and claiming the most usage out of any mon this SPL and much like Keldeo, causes teambuilding to revolve around it. This thing has some decent answers like Mega Scizor and Ferrothorn, but there's fairly easy outs to basically all of them, with Magnezone trapping these two in particular. Aside from being a colossal offensive threat that can rip apart teams if played well, Mega Metagross can also provide teammate support for breakers like Keldeo and friends by providing Pursuit trapping support while simultaneously having a solid amount of defensive utility, like trapping Latios so that it can't just spam its insanely potent attacking moves and switch out freely. The way that some teams are structured nowadays is literally just to make sure that they don't lose to MegaGross, with some mons like Scarf Zone gaining usage solely for the purpose of helping to check this mon, and that really shows its potency in the current metagame. I think that a threat as defining as MegaGross being S rank should be a no brainer, especially considering its performance so far this SPL.
Thunder Wave Starmie has quickly risen as a premier check to many of the metagame's top Pokemon while simultaneously providing an insane amount of utility for the team between removing hazards (spikes are super good now because hazard control usage is at an all time low), spreading paralysis, and checking one of the most potent offensive cores in the current metagame that's seen an absurd amount of usage so far this SPL in Keldeo + Gross by being able to threaten both of them out with the threat of paralysis, especially now that Gross basically never runs Thunder Punch for the most part. Obviously, attacking sets are still potent and can tear apart modern era offenses with Starmie's access to absurd coverage, but it's obviously not good enough as a team's sole Keld check because ScarfTar and Weavile have both gained some usage lately as potential teammates for Keldeo, so you need another solid Keldeo answer to pair with it. I just think that Starmie is really well suited to the current metagame between the structure of current offenses, the stark contrast between its defensive and offensive sets, and the abilities of those sets to be used on the same types of teams because that makes it a lot more annoying to play around because you can easily get sniped by the wrong set while scouting to try and find out the variant (ie going hard Latios assuming it's running mono scald or only stabs and getting slammed by Life Orb Analytic Ice Beam before you can even blink). I think that all these factors together make Starmie a great fit in A rank.
Gliscor is a really solid pick in the current metagame and has been showing its ability to abuse bulkier Pokemon so far this SPL. This thing is very potent when paired with trapping because the SD set can just run through some teams that are overreliant on a trappable mon to beat it.
With Zardx and Talonflame usage dropping off a cliff, you can run a less solid check to them like Tyranitar or something else that can soft check them well enough to have room to outplay in the rare occasions that they do show up, so you have a lot more freedom when building with this thing nowadays, and that was one of its biggest flaws in the past. This checks some of the most potent mons in the current metagame like Clefable, Lando, Heatran, Amoong, Torn, Zone, etc. and doesn't give a shit about bulky waters because of how absurd its bulk is, so it's really easy to abuse those offensive teams that rely on something like Slowbro as a blanket check to grounds. Additionally, being a status/knock absorber (after its orb activates ofc) is really nice for offensive teams because switching into stuff like wisp Jelli can be a bitch if your team doesn't have something to pivot into it. Also, people have been explorng different options like Facade or Ice Fang over Knock Off on the SD set for Gliscor lately and its made Gliscor a good bit more versatile, which is always a boost for its viability. I just think that this thing is a really solid pick in the current metagame and doesn't have as many fit issues regarding building that it used to because of current metagame trends, so it definitely deserves to go to A.
I know that jacob and a couple other people involved in this thread think that Jellicent is overrated, but I really like this mon atm and it has skyrocketed this SPL, causing people to even run Specs HP Grass on some Keldeos because of its influence. Colbur Jellicent has quickly risen as a solid blanket check to help out vs some of the best offensive Pokemon in the tier like Keldeo, Scizor, Medi (discourages HJK, isn't actually a reliable switch in), etc. Its ability to fuck with Keld + Tar cores in particular is fantastic and lets it make some matchups borderline unwinnable at preview bar incredible outplaying. Jelli can be super frustrating to deal with between switching into status, being way bulkier than you expect, and being able to Taunt defensive mons like Clefable and Ferrothorn. Obviously Jellicent still suffers a couple of issues, but its stupidly good bulk and ability to check some of the top metagame threats makes it more than deserving of B rank, if not higher, especially considering how well its been performing this SPL. Realistically, I think that this thing could very well be chilling somewhere around B+ or A- rank, but I'm just saying B for now because some people may think that's too big a jump. If you aren't convinced by my explanation here, go watch some games and talk to CBB about the mon, it's a really solid pick atm and a lot of people have been realizing it after he used it week 2.
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i'm going to comment on some of the noms LL made and then make some of my own. i won't comment on gliscor or starmie because i'm pretty neutral to those two.

A+ -> S
keldeo has always been one of the most threatening, consistent, and splashable pokemon in the tier, but it has recently proven to be the most dominant threat in the tier, specifically when paired with pursuit (which is extremely easy). keldeo + pursuit has always been pretty common, but it feels like it is more common now, mainly due to a resurgence in pursuit mega metagross use. this has made it so you essentially cannot rely on running a lati (+ some less efficient check) to handle keldeo. it is important to note that you are very rarely sacrificing anything by pairing keldeo with pursuit: on some teams this happens completely naturally, even when you aren't building around keldeo. the 3 main pursuit trappers in the tier (mega metagross, tyranitar, and weavile) are easy to put on many teams and are super threatening in their own rights, making the cost of running keldeo + pursuit virtually nonexistent.

there has also been a rise in certain coverage moves on keldeo: focus blast has been seeing more and more usage, and it does significant damage to rotom-w, suicune, alomomola, and tangrowth. hidden power grass has proven to be an effective option for the annoying water type switch-ins to keldeo, mainly rotom-w, jellicent, and starmie, and it is easy to fit if you have pursuit support since you don't really need icy wind.

i think keldeo should be S rank (and at the top of it personally).

A+ -> S
omg have people finally seen the light regarding this thing?!?! i have no idea why mega metagross was once in A rank, but we are no longer in a meta where you can just have a rotom-w or defensive landorus-t on your team and say "ok i am good against mega metagross". this pokemon is a huge pain in the butt to wall due to the unpredictability of it (so many coverage options), making it a really big building constraint in the tier atm.

LL covered this really well in his post. there honestly isn't much to say on this pokemon: i am not sure why it fell out of favor to begin with honestly, and i've always believed it is one of the most threatening pokemon in the tier by a significant amount. i think this pokemon should definitely be S rank.

C -> B/B+
i think this is a fair starting place to put jellicent at. throughout SPL, this pokemon has clearly proven itself to be a very reliable keldeo check and not just a trend. on top of that, it actually gives teams some super useful utility: it can spread burns reliably with wisp (or with scald), it can taunt annoyingmons like clefable, and it's immunities help with switching into things situationally, mainly by preventing medi from clicking HJK mindlessly. i don't think it's a one trick pony or a gimmick, but i don't think it is some amazing staple pokemon or anything. honestly, in games where the opponent does not have keldeo, jellicent does feel like it isn't doing that much. the aforementioned utility it provides makes up for this enough to justify using it, but it's significant enough that it makes it a somewhat niche choice.

C is clearly heavily underrating it though, and i think anything lower than B would too. good pokemon... just a little overrated atm.

here are some noms of my own:

A -> A+
this pokemon isn't as good as when it was placed in S in the previous iteration of this thread, but i think A rank is underselling it a bit. other than bold clefable, lopunny is a super hard pokemon to prepare for. mew and defensive landorus-t have fallen out of favor a bit, and in the case of the latter, it hardly reliably checks lopunny due to ice punch / beam. i honestly can't stand having landorus-t as your main counterplay to lopunny because it is super easy to overwhelm. other threats to lopunny that have seemingly fallen out of favor are mega pinsir and talonflame due to the decline in reliable hazard removal, which segues nicely into my main argument here: this pokemon is amazing when paired with spikes.

mega lopunny + spikes balances have been a thing since early ORAS, but these builds are super reliable right now. hazard removal isn't really that easy to fit on teams, and the better options are super easy to pressure with these types of builds. the only thing really standing in your way is bold clef, which is one pokemon that you can clearly have teammates to handle. a good example of these types of builds is the one Updated Kanto used in SPL (mega lopunny / tyranitar / gliscor / ferrothorn / jellicent / clefable). notice how this build in particular takes advantage of the 2 aforementioned weaknesses by using pokemon that have risen in usage this SPL: gliscor for a reliable clefable check and jellicent to block spinning (+ tyranitar to remove defoggers). keep in mind that this is one team and there are other lopunny + spikes teams.

in short, a lot of people seem underprepared for mega lopunny in general, but specifically mega lopunny + spikes. i think mega lopunny definitely fits in with pokemon like weavile and mega medicham at the lower end of A+ rank.

A -> A-
so far in SPL, jirachi has only been used once: i don't think this is just an anomaly. the pivot-centric bulky offenses (like the mega medicham one made by ABR and blunder) that largely contributed to this pokemon rising in viability previously are not as common anymore. mega metagross, mega scizor, and heatran are just more splashable in the current meta; mega metagross and mega scizor in particular have become even harder to pass up than in the past, and jirachi is very rarely needed on builds with them for obvious reasons. choice scarf jirachi is really only good on really offensive teams, and the meta is mostly geared towards bulky offenses atm.

A- -> A
i find amoonguss to be the most splashable reliable keldeo check by far. it has a great pool of utility moves, it doesn't kill momentum thanks to regenerator, and it can actually check other stuff in addition to keldeo (serperior, non-bd azumarill, clefable, mega diancie, mega lopunny without spikes, thundurus if sludge > clear smog...). it has also seen seriously high usage in SPL so far.

there honestly isn't too much to say about amoonguss. i think it's significantly better than pretty much everything in A- rank (except gliscor and starmie which were nominated for a reason), and it certainly fits in with rotom-w and ferrothorn in A rank.
As I examine many of these tier changes, I actually give a bit more credit to Mega Gardevoir than most.
I know I find alot of success with it, but oftentimes you don't see it as frequently as certain toptier mons like Metagross, Weavile, and Scizor. With that being said, Gardevoir has a surprising versatile movepool that it benefits from. As this current meta is shifting more towards these top tier threats, the common switch ins for Gardevoir are Metagross, Heatran, Scizzor, and Ferrothorn due to them being able to tank some of Gardevoirs attacks. Heatran and Ferro do fear the possible Focus Blast, however one of Gardevoirs greatest assets is the fact that it can learn willo wisp. With wisp, Gardevoir can predict switch ins to most of these threats to burn, completely shutting them down for the remainder of the match. I personally would keep Gardevoir around an A- or A rank for this factor.


Gardevoir has a lot of issues preventing it from being as good as you say it is : it's pretty slow, doesn't offer much defensive utility and has ridiculously little bulk (it doesn't even takes special attacks that well) and most of all, it has a terrible matchup against the two best megas in the tier, Metagross and Scizor. It's really hard to use it without running slow, spikes weak mons in the back to mitigate these weaknesses. It's true that Gardevoir hits really hard with Hyper Voice but that's it.

Right now, i really prefer to use Mega Zam over Gardevoir because while retaining firepower and wallbreaking abilities, its great speed and decent ability also turns it into a great revenge killer and lategame sweeper. I just see no reason to use Gardevoir except if you noticed your opponent always uses shaky fairy resists and low speed mons (for example balanced with Heatran or Ferrothorn as the only fairy resist), it can be great in these matchups but otherwise it's too risky to use in my opinion. To sum up, I don't support a Garde raise.
Gardevoir has a lot of issues preventing it from being as good as you say it is : it's pretty slow, doesn't offer much defensive utility and has ridiculously little bulk (it doesn't even takes special attacks that well) and most of all, it has a terrible matchup against the two best megas in the tier, Metagross and Scizor. It's really hard to use it without running slow, spikes weak mons in the back to mitigate these weaknesses. It's true that Gardevoir hits really hard with Hyper Voice but that's it.

Right now, i really prefer to use Mega Zam over Gardevoir because while retaining firepower and wallbreaking abilities, its great speed and decent ability also turns it into a great revenge killer and lategame sweeper. I just see no reason to use Gardevoir except if you noticed your opponent always uses shaky fairy resists and low speed mons (for example balanced with Heatran or Ferrothorn as the only fairy resist), it can be great in these matchups but otherwise it's too risky to use in my opinion. To sum up, I don't support a Garde raise.
Oh I know it's not the fastest, and it is frail defensively, I just normally play balance with Gardevoir and tend to get burns often. It's not that it's the biggest thing in OU, I just thought that it could still maintain some viability and usage in the game. I do agree though that it can be risky.
I don't think Lopunny's better now than before, I even think it's the opposite with Clefable, Amoonguss and Scizor being used a lot. Lop is still great but I disagree with your previous statement.
Also, regarding Jellicent I'm looking forward to seeing how it fares in this post-SPL meta, I still don't know if it's going to become a staple of the tier or if its popularity is owed to a fleeting hype, so kinda neutral on this one
update time !_!
Keldeo A+ -> S
Mega Metagross A+ -> S
Heatran Higher in A+
Weavile Higher in A+
Gliscor A- -> A
Starmie A- -> A
Amoonguss A- -> A
Volcanion B+ -> A-
Hydreigon B+ -> A-
Mega Slowbro Higher in B+
Volcarona B -> B+
Jellicent C -> B

Lando-T S -> A+
Latios A+ Lower in A+
Jirachi A -> A-
Mega Charizard-X A -> A-
Gardevoir A- -> B+
  • keldeo rising to S should be of no surprise to anyone. specs keldeo + pursuit (tyranitar / weavile / mega metagross / mega scizor) is the most dominant offensive combination in the tier, capable of overwhelming traditional keldeo checks like latios, tornadus-t, starmie, and more. dedicated and ultra reliable keldeo checks are more necessary than ever, and even these can be worn down by fourth moves like focus blast and hidden power grass. furthermore, keldeo is an extremely versatile and splashable pokemon.
  • mega metagross saw an odd dip in usage previously, but throughout SPL, it has risen to dominance again. unlike many other megas, megagross is easy to throw on many different kinds of teams, and its vast movepool allows you to tailor it to your needs. it has very few guaranteed counters, meaning checking it is dependent on offensive answers and situational counters. the most popular set atm (meteor mash / zen headbutt / ice punch / earthquake | hammer arm) is capable of causing serious damage with minimal team support. mega metagross is also a reliable clefable check, and it is one of the best pursuit trappers thanks to its fantastic bulk and offenses.
  • gliscor is a frustrating breaker that brings great defensive utility to the table. teams have to rely on ice coverage moves or keldeo to deal with it essentially. as LL mentioned in his nomination post, it is easier to fit on teams now than ever before due to the decrease in mega charizard x and talonflame usage: you have more opportunities to run this instead of landorus-t, basically. furthermore, it proved to be an excellent pick throughout SPL, as shown in the team Updated Kanto used here and the team Nintendo used here (which has been spammed af in stour).
  • starmie can still be a useful deterrent to keldeo (though it needs additional support), and it can reliably handle mega metagross that aren't carrying thunder punch. furthermore, it is a reliable hazard removal option in a tier with few, and unlike others, it can gimp common pursuit trappers with scald, thunder wave, and/or toxic.
  • while amoonguss doesn't do much offensively, it is one of the most splashable pokemon in the tier in general, and it's one of the most reliable defensive pivots hands down. its typing, bulk, and ability make it capable of reliably handling a few annoying offensive threats (mainly keldeo!!!) in one without sapping momentum.
  • 5:01 PM jacob: and Volcanion is a water immune in Keldeo the Metgame
    5:01 PM jacob: that also hits like a truck
    5:01 PM jacob: and if it can get sub is a major pain
  • hydreigon has proven to be one of the best breakers in the tier throughout SPL. after one proper flash cannon predict vs. clefable, it is virtually impossible to wall. this now well-known team used by CBB here shows how hydreigon can reliably support mega metagross and keldeo by pressuring slowbro, jellicent, starmie, etc. while this is only one team, it is a team that has seriously proliferated in usage, and it features one of the most common and effective offensive cores in the tier in mega metagross + keldeo.
  • volcarona is a pretty match-up dependent pokemon, but we feel that it being B rank was just a bit of an oversight from before. the hidden power ground set is a pain to check defensively, and 101+ scarfers aren't the most splashable things in the tier. furthermore, it saw nice usage in SPL, as shown by the teams used by Nintendi here and Znain here.
  • jellicent is one of the most splashable and reliable keldeo checks in the tier, and its usage throughout SPL has shown that it is not just a fad. not only does jelli handle keld super well, but it can gimp pursuit trappers, block spin, and provide situationally useful utility with ghost typing, water immunity, and utility moves like taunt and wisp. since this is a significant jump, we are starting with jellicent in B, and we will continue to look at how it does in future tournaments to see if it should rise higher.
  • while landorus-t is extremely splashable and reliable, it is no longer as necessary due to the decline in talonflame and mega charizard x usage, allowing for more diversity in the "ground" slot on teams (example: gliscor). physical attackers like mega lopunny, mega medicham, and mega metagross run ice coverage, making it a not-so-reliable check to them. finally, it is pretty easy to chip due to no reliable recovery and constantly wanting to switch into multiple pokemon. with all this said, landorus-t is still a top tier pokemon, and the scarf set is especially useful.
  • jirachi is just hard to justify now that pivot heavy teams like the ABR / blunder mega medicham one are out of style. it faces serious competition from mega metagross and mega scizor, both of which are much easier to throw on teams due to decreased usage in other megas.
  • mega charizard x is just not as practical to build with as before: hazard removal is hard to fit, and it's more pressured than ever due to jellicent blocking spin and rampant pursuit trappers to remove lati@s, zapdos, etc. furthermore, mega charizard x counters, such as slowbro, heatran, and landorus-t (even though it has fallen in viability a bit), are still rampant. mega charizard x is still very threatening, but it is harder to justify using.
  • mega gardevoir really does not appreciate how common mega metagross and mega scizor are. while neither can reliably switch in due to wisp and hidden power fire, they can easily threaten it offensively. not much else to add here, really.
i'm not the best at properly explaining this stuff, so if there are any questions about these changes, feel free to PM me. also, we did not do explanations for the in-rank rises and drops since they are not as important as the actual rises and drops.

the lower ranks are a bit of a mess right now; we just didn't go over them at all since they are low priority. we will be sure to do significant work on them by the next slate, but if anyone has any serious opinions about those, feel free to sound off here n_n.
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BIG UPDATE! it will be broken up into 2 sections: rises and drops that were voted on, and lower ranks which were done informally.
Gliscor A -> S
Ferrothorn A -> A+
Magnezone A- -> A
Skarmory A- -> A
Mega Alakazam B+ -> A-
Mega Slowbro B+ -> A
Volcarona B+ -> A
Jellicent B -> B+
Kyurem B -> B+
Mega Manectric B -> B+

Mega Medicham A+ -> A
Tornadus-T A+ -> A
Latios A+ -> A
Mega Lopunny A -> A-
Starmie A -> A-
Talonflame A- -> B+
Mega Pinsir A- -> B+
Mew A- -> B
Volcanion A- -> B+
spreadsheet with all the votes. thanks xray Lemaitre bro fist Mounts ABR blarghlfarghl Jytcampbell and Exiline for contributing. since there was a general lack of interest in submitting an entire ranking as outlined in the previous post, i made a slate for everyone to vote on based off what we were discussing. this ensured that all the main topics were being addressed while also streamlining the process, making it easier to participate in. also, interested and qualified people outside of the stour requirements were allowed to participate in both discussion and voting to widen the pool. with that out of the way, here are some explanations for these rises and drops:
  • gliscor rising shouldn't really need much of an explanation. spikes builds are really dominant right now, and gliscor is a staple on many of these. after an SD it can just destroy so many bulky builds, and spikes support amplifies this capability. furthermore, there isn't much that checks scor offensively: pokemon like keldeo or weavile cannot reliably switch in to gliscor, and when you have hazards up, they eventually get worn down. there isn't really much to explain... this pokemon has been on an upward trend for a bit now, being as big of a threat as mega metagross and specs keldeo are, making it a clear fit for S rank.
  • spikes builds are the most dominant builds in the meta right now, and ferrothorn is the face of most of these. ferrothorn is the most reliable spike setter, capable of setting up on a lot due to its typing and bulk. most notably, ferrothorn isn't too bothered by the most common forms of hazard removal (excadrill, starmie, latios), making it a very consistent spiker. it's a super splashable pokemon that provides a lot of defensive utility, and it is clearly on par with all the stuff in A+ at least. it originally dropped a few years back when ORAS VR was having a bit of an identity crisis where A+ was seemingly limited to only pokemon splashable on all kinds of teams or the absolute most threatening pokemon (medi, lop, torn-t at the time). it probably should've risen to A+ awhile ago, but right now it is especially good, arguably the best it's ever been in ORAS.
  • a common theme here: spikes builds have gotten more popular, meaning ferrothorn and skarmory have gotten more popular, meaning means of stopping ferrothorn and skarmory have gotten more popular. magnezone is really easy to throw on a lot of different team frameworks due to being so great at supporting common threats like gliscor, mega metagross, weavile, etc. it puts a huge dent into spikes builds, especially with hazard removal in the back, but even without it, you're (most likely) limiting their hazards and removing a core part of their defensive backbone. it's also worth noting that scarf magnezone can sort of check mega metagross with some prior damage: it allows you to reliably get rid of it once you wear it down a little.
  • skarmory sets spikes spikes are broken skarmory rose. it's not as good as ferrothorn, but it's still pretty solid. that one ABR team shows how consistent it can be.
  • mega zam being B+ was an oversight more than anything. not much of an explanation needed because this was probably only the case because of people forgetting about mega alakazam. it's a rly good mon!
  • mega slowbro is really cool right now. it checks some of the most annoying pokemon in the tier defensively (keldeo and mega metagross) while being an amazing set-up win condition. spikes builds have amplified its capability, as seen on that Lemaitre team. sort of like sd gliscor, it's a pain to break past, and the few answers to it end up getting worn down by hazards / cannot switch in. while a 2 rank rise might seem surprising, it probably shouldn't have been in B+ to begin with.
  • speaking of 2 rank rises, volcarona is stupid good. it's a huge threat that people are prone to underprepping for, and it has proven to be fairly consistent rather than just a cheese pick. with hp ground + stabs, you hit everything outside of jellicent basically. also, talonflame has continued to decline, making volcarona a more and more reliable pick.
  • jellicent is more than just a trend from SPL, so it makes sense for it to be in B+. i originally wanted to put it here for reasons outlined in my post way back, but better late than never i guess lol.
  • i don't really have much experience with regular kyurem tbh. multiple people brought it up during discussion, and i think it's just simply more on par with breakers in B+ like mega gardevoir and mega gyarados than ones in B like regular alakazam.
  • sorta the same situation with mega manectric: it's just more on par with things in B+ than B. i personally think this pokemon's pretty cool on spike builds since that helps to make up for its lowish power. not that 135 spatk is bad, but it's not being boosted by an item or a set up move, nor is it abusing some really high base power moves.
  • mega medicham is just really hard to justify, and the medi bulky offenses of the past are just not good right now. taking up a mega slot is really huge when mega metagross, mega scizor, and mega slowbro are options, and when it's a pain to actually fit on teams... that just makes it tougher to justify. it lacks defensive utility, gets worn down easily by spikes, and is easily checked offensively by a ton of stuff. medi is still a very threatening and fairly reliable pokemon, but it is just not as easy to justify now as it was in the past.
  • i personally strongly disagree with tornadus-t dropping, but i'll provide some of the reasoning given during discussion. AV tornadus-t is not as good as it used to be since it doesn't reliably check keldeo, and it is walled by a ton of stuff. LO tornadus-t, while threatening, is harder to fit on teams and gets worn down pretty quickly, even with regenerator.
  • latios is just not as reliable as it used to be. in the past you could throw it on your teams as a keld SI, but you haven't been able to do that for a pretty long time now. defog sets get trapped by pursuiters pretty quickly, and pursuit trappers like mega metagross, weavile, and tyranitar are still dominating the meta. latios is still a really threatening pokemon, especially with sets like specs and LO 3 attacks, but it's not the staple pokemon it once was.
  • mega lopunny really struggles in a metagame filled with bold clef, amoonguss, and slowbros. furthermore, offensive builds mega lopunny was once most common on have fallen out of favor, making it hard to justify building with it.
  • last update, starmie mostly rose due to latios declining. this was just sort of poor reasoning, and the reality is that starmie is not that reliable itself. life orb sets are not reliable at all (which is why they see like no usage), and the bulky set isn't really bulky at the end of the day lol. starmie isn't reliably handling like... anything defensively, and the only reason it's really ranked anywhere high to begin with is because of rapid spin.
  • talonflame just keeps declining. hazard removal is annoying to fit, and landorus-t, tankchomp, and tyranitar are always going to be prominent. it's simply not as good as the other pokemon in A- rank.
  • mega pinsir is a similar case to talonflame, but it also requires a mega slot, making it even harder to justify in a lot of cases. it's a more threatening sweeper than talon, but the mega thing really hurts it.
  • mew's bad when do you find yourself being able to fit this thing on a team lol.
  • volcanion shouldn't have risen last update, so it's going back down.

lower rank changes done mostly by Lemaitre and i:
Mamoswine B- -> B
Victini C+ -> B-
Mega Swampert C+ -> B-
Mega Garchomp C+ -> B-
Mega Gallade C+ -> B-
Thundurus-T C+ -> B-
Mega Tyranitar C -> B-

Metagross B- -> UR
Mandibuzz B- -> C

The C ranks were merged into 1 C rank. Any Pokemon not present in the new C rank and not mentioned above are UR.

C Rank:
Mega Sharpedo
Mega Pidgeot
Mega Sceptile
Mega Beedrill
the general idea here was to just streamline the lower rankings. with ORAS now being an old gen, there are fewer games, meaning more niche stuff gets used less and less. we want this resource to clearly show people what actually has at least some viability in ORAS OU, and a lot of the stuff previously in the lower ranks didn't have any serious use at the end of the day.

the pokemon that rose from the C ranks to B- all have some competitive merit. it made sense to put mega swampert next to the other rain pokemon in B-. mega gallade, mega tyranitar, mega garchomp, victini, and thundurus-t are all pretty interesting win conditions to build with. they aren't that great by any means, but they're all certainly better than the C rank pokemon.

mamoswine rose from B- to B because B is filled with a lot of really niche options that mamoswine has a bit of an edge over.
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double post small update:

Gliscor S -> A+

gliscor's original rise to S was honestly a bit of an overreaction. it absolutely dominated last stour, but it performed rather poorly in wcop all things consider. people are now preparing for it even more with coverage like ice beam on clefable becoming standard over the last month. after discussing it with a few of the people who voted on the previous slate (ABR, John, and Lemaitre), it was agreed that gliscor should drop.
triple post but it's ok because i care about this thread :]

there probably won't be a full on update until stour playoffs, but in the meantime i want to BRIEFLY bring up a few points i've been discussing with some ppl:
  • mega bro -> A+: extremely consistent pokemon and easily the second best mega in the tier right now. spikes + fat are still dominant rn and mega bro works so well with these. it also cleanly handles big threats mmeta and keldeo.
  • mega scizor -> A: it does't fare well vs spike builds, and many bulky offenses are running magnezone to handle spikers and pressure mega metagross (scarf zone). just in a bad place rn.
  • mega alakazam -> A: it should've gone to A when exiline brought it up honestly.
  • mega medicham -> A-: lots of bro and clef right now, the types of bulky offenses it flourished on before are pretty bad now, and it faces a lot of mega slot competition from mega metagross.
  • volcarona -> A: i wanted this one to happen last time personally. this mon just isn't cheese in this tier, and even though the builds are pretty linear, it's surprisingly consistent and hard to handle for so many teams.
  • latios -> A-: too much pursuit meaning it can't really switch into keld or defog reliably and the specs and scarf sets are just kinda underwhelming honestly. specs is still good, but most of the time i use it i'm wondering why i'm not just running specs hydreigon instead since that can at least dark pulse and the answer to that is usually just that latios can run defog 4th slot.
  • chomp -> A-: offensive sets and scarf are pretty hard to fit on teams right now. still, tankchomp is pretty cool, and when you can get the offensive sd sets to work, they can be neat.
  • cune -> A-: idk this should've happened last time but i let blarghlfarghl vote.
  • starmie -> B+: similar situation to latios where it just gets overwhelmed really easily and doesn't put in much work. the offensive sets are outright bad and the bulky sets get pressured af. starmie can still be relaly annoying tho and spin is super important but idk. i used to think it's a lot better than it is rn but it's sorta fallen off.
  • chansey -> B: stall is bad -> chansey is bad
  • alomomola -> B: just seems like a more niche pick akin to the stuff in B.
  • gastrodon -> B+: obii and blunder used this in wcop and it's pretty cool since it pressures mega metagross and keldeo while also acting as a nice fat set up mon with curse. it also gives your teams a ground in case you aren't running landorus-t or tankchomp, which is likely nowadays.
  • regular alakazam -> B+: idk tdk said to add this. it's pretty cool.
  • thundurus-i -> B+: really hard to fit on teams now due to hazard removal being impossible. super threatening and annoying mon, but it's really niche now compared to before. it's also hard for it to set up stuff.
  • tornadus-t -> A+: life orb sets are super threatening but they don't see much usage. av sets are super reliable and nice for bulky offensive teams that don't want to run amoonguss / jellicent / slowbro to handle keldeo. the drop last time might not have been blargh's fault but i'm blaming him since he put A- down like what the fuck blargh.
i don't agree with all of these, but i tried to at least explain the reasoning behind them. some don't relaly have much reasoning outside of a flaw with how the thread was handled previously, so sorry about the lack of explanation on those. personally, i am really big on mega scizor, mega medicham, suicune, and chansey dropping and tornadus-t, gastrodon, and volcarona rising. the rest i am pretty indifferent towards.
how the hell was an a- rank s at one point

Landorus-T: S-->A+ and Clefable: S-->A+:
If this were to go through, S rank would cease to exist. Now, this has nothing to do with the idiotic discussion about S+ and ordered ranks which has happened over the past page or so, but rather it comes down to one simple opinion: I believe that there is no pinnacle of the metagame. I think Clefable was placed on a pedestal unnecessarily, I think that Lando shouldn't be above quite a few things in A+, and I think there is a bad mindset in this thread that there should be something to represent the absolute top of OU. However, while I don't disagree that Clefable is the "best", I do not think that it is so far above everything to warrant it being an entire subrank above the rest of the metagame. In fact, I think it is by an extremely narrow margin. Like, I think that currently S rank seems to be lacking a lot of the "defining" aspect that I think should be the case in an S tier, and as such I do not believe that anything is really so defining to deserve such an honour. When I said that this has nothing to do with the idiotic discussions, that was a half-lie. There is reference that can be made to it, although it is not really a primary driver for this nomination so much as my view of the metagame as a whole is, but the reference I will make to it is that this also fixes a lot of logistics which have been a constant, pointless argument within this thread: the arguments of what should be S. I think that there is a big lack of clarity regarding what it means to be an S rank, and between the people who think that this list should be a straight up list of most viable-->least viable and the people who believe that S rank should have some extra meaning than just "the best" and that it should act like a pinnacle this is still unresolved, and I believe that this is because--unlike in other tiers and in past metagames--there is no simple answer to this in the OU metagame, and as such I do not believe that there is any call for a badge like that to be pinned onto any Pokémon because there is no real framework for what this badge means if there is no one defining force like there is in BW (sand), like there is in GSC (Snorlax), like there is in ubers (PDon), like there is in NU (normal spam) etc. and as such there is no real framework to base the rank on. I'm starting to repeat myself now so I'll stop but yeah this is a 100% serious nomination.

i don't understand your post. landorus-t and clefable aren't the sole S ranks... one of them isn't even S rank (landorus-t), and keldeo and mega metagross both take up S rank right now. also, i don't know what you mean by an "A- pokemon being S rank at one point." if you are referring to mega lopunny, that was a long while ago, and most people agree that it was a poor decision. if you are referring to gliscor, there was a reason we revisited that: it was an extremely narrow vote and a few of the people who voted for it to go to S rank (including myself) changed their opinion quickly.

landorus-t already dropped from S rank to A+ rank some time ago. it's a versatile pokemon that is easy to splash on teams, but it isn't as "mandatory" as it once was, nor is it as threatening. as you said it isn't significantly above much of the stuff in A+ rank... hence why it dropped and why there isn't discussion for it to rise back up to S.

clefable, on the other hand, is definitely dominant enough to be considered S rank. i still think it's THE best pokemon in the tier personally, and by significant margin. the only pokemon it faces competition from for this title are mega metagross, keldeo, and arguably ferrothorn (all for different reasons). not only is clefable extremely splashable, but it's a huge threat. CM sets, especially with the right support, can put in so much work. there's also a ton of variety in these sets: the rise of gliscor made ice beam more prominent, flame + moonblast and twave + moonblast are as consistent as ever, moonblastless (flame beam and thunder beam, for example) is good, psyshock is good, etc. these aren't even niche options or anything... just a testament to the versatility of CM clef. from there, you also have the utility sets, which aren't as big of momentum hogs as they are in SM. clef is a really reliable rocker, and with a TON of utility options to throw in that fourth slot, it can support teams really greatly. there's more about clef that i could get into, but these are sorta the main two things right now.

as previously mentioned, it seems you forgot keldeo and mega metagross are S rank pokemon, and i don't think this is changing anytime soon. while keldeo isn't as talked about as before, it's still extremely consistent and metagame defining. it gave rise to jellicent during SPL, and recently in WCoP we saw obii and blunder use interesting team structures with gastrodon + other situational switch-ins. yes, it is largely S rank due to the specs set, but that ONE set is genuinely just that dominant.

mega metagross started to decline when ORAS was the current gen for reasons i still don't really get honestly... i guess people were spamming rotom-w a lot at that time (it was A+ rank for a good while after all), but zen headbutt is really common now, and that kinda makes rotom-w useless. simply put, mega metagross has very few switch-ins, it fits on a variety of teams, and it brings a lot of utility to the table for an offensive powerhouse. one of the biggest mega metagross checks, mega scizor, has fallen off significantly recently due to the surge in spikes and magnezone. a lot of fat answers like slowbro don't appreciate spikes or coverage moves from gross. this isn't to say megagross has NO counters; rather, it just has means of dismantling or pressuring a lot of these counters easily. thanks to its great typing, bulk, and movepool, it is actually a really splashable mon. you can really tailor the coverage to your team, and pursuit mega metagross + keldeo is obviously fantastic. also, there isn't as much competition for the mega slot as there once was, making it even easier to justify on so many teams.

i mentioned different ways of the 3 S rank pokemon being supported in those 3 paragraphs. while it is true that certain CM clef sets might need certain support to take on counters, specs keldeo almost requires pursuit, and certain megagross sets require ways of handling certain counters, this can be said for pretty much any threatening pokemon that isn't banned in any tier ever. in the case of these 3 pokemon, however, that support is really easy to fit on teams. whether it's spikes (for all 3), magnezone (for clef and megagross), pursuit (for keld or even megagross), etc., these forms of support are all really easy to throw on the appropriate team archetypes... hence why both spikers, magnezone, and all the main pursuit users are ranked so highly, among other pokemon that support them in different ways.

all 3 of these pokemon clearly define the metagame imo, and they do so to a much greater degree than everything in A+ rank except MAYBE ferrothorn, which is why it was listed as a discussion point. personally, i am uncertain about whether ferrothorn should be S rank or not, but i'm leaning towards yes due to how dominant spike balances are and how ferrothorn is such an amazing pick for those builds.

hope this answered your concerns about S rank :]


is a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus

MegaBro to A+, MegaZor to A
Hi there, I just wanted to drop by to say that Mega Slowbro and Mega Scizor should swap ranks because Mega Slowbro is clearly the second best mega in the tier atm and approaching Megagross levels of viability, with Mega Slowbro Spikes Balances being one of the most potent archetypes right now and it just generally being a deadly wincon that can bust past a lot of standard MegaGross bulky offenses while checking some of the most dangerous physical attackers in the tier. Meanwhile, Mega Scizor finds itself in an awkward position where it often ends up requiring very aggressive/accurate prediction to not be killed within the first 10-15 turns of games against the standard Megagross + Zone teams that are infesting the metagame atm and frankly a lot of the time I just end up realizing that Mega Metagross is better on a team that I originally placed Mega Scizor again because it's more reliable at checking stuff like Lati@s and exerts much more immediate offensive pressure. I'm not saying Mega Scizor is outclassed by MegaGross or bad by any means, it's just not the top tier mega that it once was.

Volcarona to A/A+
Volcarona's another mon that's super good atm and can blow past a lot of unprepared teams. QD can sweep right through standard Mega Metagross offense and Mega Slowbro Balance alike. In SM OU, Volcarona has been given the moniker "matchup moth" because it's exactly that, a matchup pick in which the specific set being used is only good against certain teams. However, in ORAS OU, Volcarona is a pretty reliable sweeper that can easily break past teams, even those with Pokemon that are considered decent Volcarona checks like Toxic Heatran while just dominating other archetypes in the current metagame. Obviously, Volcarona still mandates Defog/Rapid Spin support, which is highly irritating to fit onto teams in this metagame as it's not very good outside of offensive defoggers like Specs Latios, but that's the only team support that Volcarona really needs and it's not much worse as something like Weavile in A+ rank that also kinda wants hazard removal to be effective and diversified hazard control options emerging with Pokemon like Excadrill and Starmie being fit onto teams. Overall, Volcarona's just a great mon that can consistently perform well against standard meta builds and tends to be pretty self sufficient in general aside from requiring entry hazard support. I'd personally put Volcarona in A+, but the mandatory entry hazard support is enough of a negative that I can totally understand placing it in A rank for.
I agree with most of these nominations.

Mega Slowbro: Yes, this is the second best mega, move it up to A+. Early game you can just keep it as its regular form, and use it to check a bunch of the tiers top threats, and then late game it functions as one of the more powerful slow wincons in the tier and it's very difficult to stop. It's the fact that it beats a lot of the best pokemon in this tier 1v1 while also being able to win the game for you that makes it A+.

Slowbro: You should raise this to A. Early game it's going to be able to take on threats even better than Mega Slowbro, as since you shouldn't mega evolve it too early, it's just a slowbro without leftovers. It lacks the ability to win games like its mega form can, but it has still cemented itself as one of the more common members on bulky semi stall teams, which are really powerful in the meta right now. It should keep Metagross and Keldeo at bay, so that hopefully you can win with one of your slow set up mons like Gliscor or Clef in the late game. This pokemon plays a huge factor in why you're thinking of dropping Mega Medi, which btw I agree with. It can run a couple of interesting moves in the 4th slot, like toxic, twave or CM, that can be adjusted to suit the exact needs of your team, so it has a little bit of customisability.

Thundurus: I disagree with this dropping, keep it in A-. It's still a menace to a lot of offensive and defensive teams alike. The rocks weakness is annoying, but the nice speed tier and great power makes up for it. In a lot of matches vs offence, it's going to be able to be able to get a kill and then para another pokemon. Weavile is annoying for it, since that pokemon can finish it will with minimal chip without getting twaved, but it's not like it can switch in on Thundy. In fact nothing on offensive teams can. It has access to a bunch of very nice offensive moves, and this coverage makes playing around Thundurus not necessarily an easy task. I don't think Thundurus is as good as it once was, but dropping something with nice consistency, power, speed, and customisability to B+ would be a mistake in my opinion.

I'll keep things a little shorter from now on.
Mega Medicham: Drop it to A-. While it's threatening in theory, it's stopped hard by Slowbro, and running this mon means you can't run one of the other incredible megas in the tier.
Volcarona: I agree with this rising to A. A lot of teams just aren't checking this thing properly, so you'll see a number of teams that just pray they don't run into it. You can never be too sure Heatran is a good answer to it, with the option to run HP Ground, and base 100 speed means it outspeed scarf Lando, which is really the only fast scarfer you're going to see around now, other than the occasional scarf terrak/lati.
Mega Scizor: I agree with this dropping to A. It used to be the best Metagross answer in the tier, but with Magnezone + Meta being as good as it is, that's no longer the case. It's still a decent wincon, but not nearly as fantastic as A+ pokemon like Gliscor or Mega Slowbro are. I think considering it beats Lando-T and utility Clef, and has nice defences, it's actually an ok defogger in a tier starved for hazard removal, but that's not enough to keep it in A+.
Starmie: Drop it to B+. While spinning is nice, the bulky set isn't actually very bulky at all due to its frail stats. It gets pressured very easily while not being able to apply much pressure in return, so yes I agree with the drop.
Gastrodon: Yes, raise to B+. This tier has a lot of scald spam, so a complete water immunity rather than merely a resist is nice. It can take on Metagross, but Zen does a chunk so be careful if the opponent has spikes up:
252 Atk Tough Claws Metagross-Mega Zen Headbutt vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Gastrodon: 169-199 (39.6 - 46.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
That being said it has enough unique attributes about it to warrant B+.
Latios: Yes, drop to A-. Pursuit being spammed as much as it is, and Metagross being as common as it is both limit this pokemon greatly. Most teams have a decent answer to it, and while the extra speed and access to defog are nice, overall specs doesn't break as well as Hydreigon does, and scarf isn't enough to keep it in A either.
Alakazam: Yes, raise to B+. Life orb makes it pretty powerful, and its fast enough to the point where scarf ttar can't pursuit trap it. It's tough to switch in on. It has paper thin defences and gets trapped by Weavile, but the amount of damage this can dish out makes it worth the B+.
Mega Alakazam: Yes, raise to A. Same reasons as above, except this time it outspeeds Weavile, which I think is pretty huge. Trace has nice uses in letting it outspeed Exca under sand, or copying regenerator and healing it on switch out. Mega Scizor getting worse, thus less common, has helped clear the way for this to be more effective too, so now's a great time for it to rise.

I agree with all the changes Starry suggested except for the Thundurus drop, and I think you should also raise regular Slowbro to A. The other nominations that I haven't mentioned all seem fine.
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small update:
Mega Slowbro A -> A+
Volcarona A- -> A

Mega Scizor A+ -> A
Garchomp A -> A-

i also moved some stuff around within ranks, using my points above + rick's post to guide that
thanks ABR and TDK for the help. see my post above for explanations. we wanted to just get some big things out of the way before doing a more comprehensive update after stour. expect another update then!

on the slowbro nom in rick's post: personally, i think regular slowbro is really nice and definitely a notch above all the other defensive mons in A- rank. it has some issues checking things it's supposed to check when those things have spikes support, but this can be said about most defensive mons honestly. it's more of a testament to how dumb megagross (tpunch + spikes support) is honestly. flaws aside, bro is still a really splashable pokemon on par with amoonguss imo.
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Mega Alakazam A- -> A

Weavile A+ -> A
Suicune A -> A-
Tangrowth A- -> B
Jirachi A- -> B
Mega Gyarados B+ -> B
Nidoking B+ -> B
Mega Venusaur B+ -> B
Mega Gardevoir B+ -> B
votes and full slate. thanks ABR, BKC, CBB, and bro fist for voting. i won't reveal who voted for what, but the first votes are mine. now for some explanations as to why some of this stuff rose / dropped:
  • mega alakazam has been seeing more and more usage lately, specifically on spike builds. mega alakazam + spikes isn't anything new, but the absolute dominance of spikes builds has made it a clearly fantastic pick. see the team z0m used in stour for a good example of this archetype.
  • while weavile is a huge threat and a pursuit trapper, it isn't the easiest thing to throw on many builds. its stealth rocks weakness really shows due to the limited hazard removal, meaning weavile builds can end up pretty linear. as a pursuit trapper, it lacks the utility that tyranitar and mega metagross have.
  • suicune has just fallen off lately. personally, i think it being A rank to begin with was just an overreaction to vincune being so good for a like a year. as a threat, it's more on par with threats in A- like zard-y.
  • tangrowth is bad and hasn't seen any relevant usage in a long time.
  • jirachi is bad and hasn't seen any relevant usage in a long time.
  • mega gyarados is bad and has seen one instance of relevant usage in a long time (psychicmewtwo vs ABR (i think) in WCoP).
  • nidoking is bad and hasn't seen any relevant usage in a long time.
  • mega venusaur is bad and hasn't seen any relevant usage in a long time.
  • mega gardevoir is bad and hasn't seen any relevant usage in a long time.
on another note, i will no longer be using stour records as a way to pick people to vote on the slate, since there's a general lack of interest there.
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