In my opinion, Metagross is just fine where it is for the time being. It does have (some) good stats and a good movepool, but I think it's got enough shortcomings to merit a spot in B+ instead. First of all, its speed is a bit low, which makes it less likely to be truly helpful on more offensive builds, where Cobalion and other speedy attackers are favored. Even if you do decide to use it, picking which moves to use is often an agonizing process. Sure, it has a good movepool, but what's that worth if it can't actually make any use of most of its coverage at any given time? Besides this, Metagross struggles with a multitude of threats in the current metagame thanks to its typical coverage and speed stat, including Hydreigon, Suicune, Mega Swampert, Mamoswine, Entei, Krookodile, Zapdos, Chandelure, Mega Blastoise, Nidoqueen, and Azelf. Now you can run coverage for these 'mons, but the main point is that they all scare you out. Having this number of offensive checks wouldn't be such a problem for Metagross if it could keep up with them or hit all of them at once. This was a similar argument to lowering Doublade's rank some time ago, all the way down to B+, where Metagross also is. It's fine to keep Metagross there for now, considering its numerous issues.
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ORAS UU Viability Rankings V4
- Thread starter dodmen
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u gotta be kidding, u said nothing that i couldnt learn about Floatzel on his strategy dex
no im lying at least his dex says even Samurott is a better choice over it
this thing is fuckin pu for a reason
its frail and weak, cant do a job consistently, hard stopped by any wall in this tier
i mean, cmon
this is what happens when u turn C rank into C+/C-, ppl start to think everything should be ranked
ffs we have plenty of mons to discuss about, dont bring those things to discussion
at least post some replays if u wanna make a bad nom
no im lying at least his dex says even Samurott is a better choice over it
this thing is fuckin pu for a reason
its frail and weak, cant do a job consistently, hard stopped by any wall in this tier
i mean, cmon
this is what happens when u turn C rank into C+/C-, ppl start to think everything should be ranked
ffs we have plenty of mons to discuss about, dont bring those things to discussion
at least post some replays if u wanna make a bad nom
Honestly I did what I said I would and I'm deleting that now.
Gonna comment on some drops and their placement IMO
Metagross offers a lot of valuable utility for bulky offense and balance teams. First of all, an actual fairy resist that can set up stealth rock while having great offensive presence is absolutely amazing, unlike cobalion, it can actually afford to switch into florges which is great. Offensive SR setter and LO mixed with grass knot are really good sets and metagross possess a rather flexible itemslot where it can fit leftovers or a good couple of resist berries like shuca and colbur, and thats just the offensive SR set, explosion is also bonkers cool. Of course metagross is by no means perfect, struggles with pretty much every water type, cant really run every it wants to (albeit I dont much use on zen headbutt personally) and still receives competition of cobalion besides the mixed LO set. All in all, it is a pretty cool mon to stay in B+ for a long time
Wait, this already has a placement, lol. My bad, lets see the current slate:
Guess Im gonna comment on moltres and mega absol.
Moltres can certainly drop to C+. With the recent rank division moltres actually fits better on the C+ rank since its suffer from competition from other fire type nukes like chandelure, both dealing with pretty the same mons virtue of its typing but moltres speed tier let it get the jump on a good couple of targets like heracross and subtoxic moltres is actually a disgusting set to go against it just doesnt have enough qualities to make it stand above better mons like gligar, aromatisse, qwilfish, tangrowth and yanmega. Even if I like this mon a lot I agree that it has to drop (albeit the drops doesnt affect its viability in the slightest).
I agree with Mega Absol to B. Much better than everything in B- in terms of viability, no direct competition with other dark types thanks to magic bounce which is really useful against recent drops like sableye which make it one of the few mons that can take total advantage of a sableye on offense, being setup bait to sd sets and what not. Thats a pretty notable quality given sableye is extremely annoying to go against. A pretty neat speed tier, strong priority and a good amount of viable moves it can pull off to nail specific targets like iron tail for fairies, play rough to hit most fighting types besides cobalion for good damage and what not. Mega Absol gets a bit better on todays metagame with mons like forretress getting worse, and while it comes with huge opportunity cost, it is enough to rise to B
Please leave Donphan, it had received enough backlash and can be pretty comparable to forretress in terms of effectiveness so...
Metagross offers a lot of valuable utility for bulky offense and balance teams. First of all, an actual fairy resist that can set up stealth rock while having great offensive presence is absolutely amazing, unlike cobalion, it can actually afford to switch into florges which is great. Offensive SR setter and LO mixed with grass knot are really good sets and metagross possess a rather flexible itemslot where it can fit leftovers or a good couple of resist berries like shuca and colbur, and thats just the offensive SR set, explosion is also bonkers cool. Of course metagross is by no means perfect, struggles with pretty much every water type, cant really run every it wants to (albeit I dont much use on zen headbutt personally) and still receives competition of cobalion besides the mixed LO set. All in all, it is a pretty cool mon to stay in B+ for a long time
Wait, this already has a placement, lol. My bad, lets see the current slate:
Guess Im gonna comment on moltres and mega absol.
Moltres can certainly drop to C+. With the recent rank division moltres actually fits better on the C+ rank since its suffer from competition from other fire type nukes like chandelure, both dealing with pretty the same mons virtue of its typing but moltres speed tier let it get the jump on a good couple of targets like heracross and subtoxic moltres is actually a disgusting set to go against it just doesnt have enough qualities to make it stand above better mons like gligar, aromatisse, qwilfish, tangrowth and yanmega. Even if I like this mon a lot I agree that it has to drop (albeit the drops doesnt affect its viability in the slightest).
I agree with Mega Absol to B. Much better than everything in B- in terms of viability, no direct competition with other dark types thanks to magic bounce which is really useful against recent drops like sableye which make it one of the few mons that can take total advantage of a sableye on offense, being setup bait to sd sets and what not. Thats a pretty notable quality given sableye is extremely annoying to go against. A pretty neat speed tier, strong priority and a good amount of viable moves it can pull off to nail specific targets like iron tail for fairies, play rough to hit most fighting types besides cobalion for good damage and what not. Mega Absol gets a bit better on todays metagame with mons like forretress getting worse, and while it comes with huge opportunity cost, it is enough to rise to B
Please leave Donphan, it had received enough backlash and can be pretty comparable to forretress in terms of effectiveness so...
A couple things, first viability =/= usage and usage is what the tiering lists are going to be based off of. While Charizard is most likely even going to be used less than Moltres, it just dropped down from OU due to the separate tiering of Mega and non-Mega Pokemon so Charizard is going to be in UU until the next tier shifts (most likely).
Changes:
Forretress: B to B-
Mega Absol: B- to B
Mega Houndoom: B+ to A-
Moltres: B- to C
Gardevoir: B to B+
Metagross: B+ to B
Venusaur: C- to C+
After playing a lot more with Gardevoir and Metagross, it was decided that their initial placements were a bit off. Specs and LO Moonblast/Psyshock is really tough to switch into for a lot of teams especially given that Cobalion is the most common Steel-type used on balance (Timid Specs has a 50% chance to OHKO), while Scarf provides some nice utility with a fast Moonblast and Healing Wish. Metagross on the other hand is a bit harder to use as neither of its STABs are particularly easy to spam and it can't check Mega Beedrill and Aero well, a big factor in picking a Steel-type for offensive teams. Venusaur is also not quite as terrible as everything in C-, under sun it's actually pretty threatening as Kotori showed many of us this week.
Nominations:
Suicune: S to A+. While Suicune is undoubtedly one of the top Pokemon in the tier, some of the viability team members don't think it's as metagame defining as the others in S. Let's see some good discussion on this nomination.
Mega Abomasnow: A- to B+. Though it's really hard to switch into, it's harder to get it onto the field; overall it seems much weaker than the rest of A-.
Heliolisk: B+ to B. Like Metagross, it's not a bad Pokemon at all, just doesn't perform as effectively as the rest of low B+ like Gardevoir and Tentacruel.
Seismitoad: B- to C+/C. Not much to be said here, Water immunity doesn't mean all that much when its inferior bulk means stuff like Mega Swampert and Sharpedo can still destroy it
Forretress: B to B-
Mega Absol: B- to B
Mega Houndoom: B+ to A-
Moltres: B- to C
Gardevoir: B to B+
Metagross: B+ to B
Venusaur: C- to C+
After playing a lot more with Gardevoir and Metagross, it was decided that their initial placements were a bit off. Specs and LO Moonblast/Psyshock is really tough to switch into for a lot of teams especially given that Cobalion is the most common Steel-type used on balance (Timid Specs has a 50% chance to OHKO), while Scarf provides some nice utility with a fast Moonblast and Healing Wish. Metagross on the other hand is a bit harder to use as neither of its STABs are particularly easy to spam and it can't check Mega Beedrill and Aero well, a big factor in picking a Steel-type for offensive teams. Venusaur is also not quite as terrible as everything in C-, under sun it's actually pretty threatening as Kotori showed many of us this week.
Nominations:
Suicune: S to A+. While Suicune is undoubtedly one of the top Pokemon in the tier, some of the viability team members don't think it's as metagame defining as the others in S. Let's see some good discussion on this nomination.
Mega Abomasnow: A- to B+. Though it's really hard to switch into, it's harder to get it onto the field; overall it seems much weaker than the rest of A-.
Heliolisk: B+ to B. Like Metagross, it's not a bad Pokemon at all, just doesn't perform as effectively as the rest of low B+ like Gardevoir and Tentacruel.
Seismitoad: B- to C+/C. Not much to be said here, Water immunity doesn't mean all that much when its inferior bulk means stuff like Mega Swampert and Sharpedo can still destroy it
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Suicune might still be among some of the best pokemon in the tier but I think it has fallen way too much and just isn't nearly as good as it used to be. Eversince Crocune became somewhat outdated, only more inefficient sets have popped up imo. CM Roar means that cune has to deal with two dead turns everytime it rests, Roar RestTalk could be nice but means that Cune loses its ability to set up and potentially sweep, and other variants without Rest just aren't all that great. Personally, I will always consider the classic CroCune to be its best set, but that too is just not as efficient as it used to be. I agree with it being a better fit in A+.
I don't like the thought of dropping this. I believe Abomasnow to be too underrated of a Mega. With fantastic bulk, offensive stats, offensive typing, priority, set up options, and a pretty decent movepool, I really think this should be used more and deserves a spot in where it's at. I certainly haven't been disappointed whenever I have decided to use this thing, as opposed to the other megas in B+ (Sceptile/Aggron), as well as most of the pokemon in general that are in that section. I believe all of its capabilities, especially how well MAboma deals with top tier threats, puts it above the mons you see in B+ and closer to those in A-.
Don't have too much of an opinion on this as I've only used it a couple of times but I don't think Helio is used as much as it should be. On top of being a pretty solid check to bulky waters (though this is the main reason to use Heliolisk), it is in a speed tier that allows it to shine, as well as being a great special attacker with its 109 Base SPA coupled with the usual Life Orb. If Crawdaunt drops (and it seems quite likely at this point), Heliolisk is only bound to gain even more reason to be used. I'm leaning closer to wanting to keep it at B+
Yeah, Seismitoad isn't that great and hardly has a place in this tier. I agree with it dropping, but I believe it has enough utility in being a decent Stealth Rocker and Scald switch-in to be at C+ rather than just C.
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Mega Ampharos for B+
Ok now that Crawdaunt is officially freed can we please get Mega Ampharos out of B-? Mega Ampharos is one of the best checks to Crawdaunt and gains momentum for you in the process with Volt Switch. In addition, physically fat Grasses are going to see a rise while Grounds will (theoretically) decrease in usage due to Crawdaunt's Aqua Jet, so Mega Ampharos should have an easier time switching in and spamming Volt Switch.
I also found Ampharos to be a great partner for Crawdaunt, as it lures in mons like Florges/Blissey/Lax etc which Crawdaunt can put massive pressure on, and Ampharos + Daunt overloads Whimsicott, allowing a backup sweeper or Daunt to finally break through a team.
Ok now that Crawdaunt is officially freed can we please get Mega Ampharos out of B-? Mega Ampharos is one of the best checks to Crawdaunt and gains momentum for you in the process with Volt Switch. In addition, physically fat Grasses are going to see a rise while Grounds will (theoretically) decrease in usage due to Crawdaunt's Aqua Jet, so Mega Ampharos should have an easier time switching in and spamming Volt Switch.
I also found Ampharos to be a great partner for Crawdaunt, as it lures in mons like Florges/Blissey/Lax etc which Crawdaunt can put massive pressure on, and Ampharos + Daunt overloads Whimsicott, allowing a backup sweeper or Daunt to finally break through a team.
I agree with this nom, physically defensive M-Ampharos, in particular, counters Crawdaunt really well. I got calcs for a post I made in the suspect thread:
"AOA Mega Ampharos:
- 252 Atk Life Orb Adaptability Crawdaunt Crabhammer vs. 132 HP / 0 Def Mega Ampharos: 129-152 (36.4 - 42.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
- 252 Atk Life Orb Adaptability Crawdaunt Knock Off vs. 132 HP / 0 Def Mega Ampharos: 169-200 (47.7 - 56.4%) -- 85.9% chance to 2HKO
- 0 SpA Life Orb Crawdaunt Ice Beam vs. 132 HP / 0 SpD Mega Ampharos: 143-169 (40.3 - 47.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
- 252+ SpA Mold Breaker Mega Ampharos Volt Switch vs. 4 HP / 0- SpD Crawdaunt: 542-638 (202.2 - 238%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Agility Mega Ampharos:
- 252 Atk Life Orb Adaptability Crawdaunt Crabhammer vs. 32 HP / 0 Def Mega Ampharos: 129-152 (39.2 - 46.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
- 252 Atk Life Orb Adaptability Crawdaunt Knock Off vs. 32 HP / 0 Def Mega Ampharos: 169-200 (51.3 - 60.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
- 0 SpA Life Orb Crawdaunt Ice Beam vs. 32 HP / 0 SpD Mega Ampharos: 143-169 (43.4 - 51.3%) -- 5.5% chance to 2HKO
- 252 SpA Mold Breaker Mega Ampharos Thunderbolt vs. 4 HP / 0- SpD Crawdaunt: 632-746 (235.8 - 278.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
~its physically defensive set is a fantastic stop to it~
Physically Defensive Mega Ampharos:
- 252 Atk Life Orb Adaptability Crawdaunt Crabhammer vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mega Ampharos: 95-112 (24.7 - 29.1%) -- 99.8% chance to 4HKO
- 252 Atk Life Orb Adaptability Crawdaunt Knock Off vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mega Ampharos: 122-146 (31.7 - 38%) -- 91.7% chance to 3HKO
- 0 SpA Life Orb Crawdaunt Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Mega Ampharos: 143-169 (37.2 - 44%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
- +2 252 Atk Life Orb Adaptability Crawdaunt Crabhammer vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mega Ampharos: 187-221 (48.6 - 57.5%) -- 94.9% chance to 2HKO
- +2 252 Atk Life Orb Adaptability Crawdaunt Knock Off vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mega Ampharos: 244-289 (63.5 - 75.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
- 252+ Atk Life Orb Adaptability Crawdaunt Knock Off vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mega Ampharos: 133-159 (34.6 - 41.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
- 4 SpA Mold Breaker Mega Ampharos Volt Switch vs. 4 HP / 0- SpD Crawdaunt: 422-498 (157.4 - 185.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
- 4 SpA Mold Breaker Mega Ampharos Volt Switch vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Crawdaunt: 378-446 (141 - 166.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
~with only Adamant Choice Band having a chance to 2HKO before Amp has a chance to attack.
- 252+ Atk Choice Band Adaptability Crawdaunt Knock Off vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mega Ampharos: 154-182 (40.1 - 47.3%) -- 50% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock"
So now that Crawdaunt is finally in the tier, I'm thinking A or A+. He's too slow and frail for S, though he certainly hits hard enough and can tailor his moveset to account for his counters. Additionally keeping him out of S is just how many threatening offensive Pokemon that take what is essentially chip damage from Aqua Jet unless it's Adamant Choice Band which exacerbates his problems with switching in.
With crawdaunt around no way in hell heliolisk is dropping, a mon that can provide momentum to offense and dont care about LO or banded aqua jets is absolutely priceless. I believe it is still pretty effective to stay on B+ and it perhaps one of the most solid water checks overall thanks to its coverage, sharpedo being the only exception. This mon getting the jump on cobalion is actually pretty neat as well. Heliolisk just gets better.
Definitely agree with Mega Ampharos to B+. In addition to countering Crawdaunt, the physically defensive set serves as a pretty solid answer to a lot of other threats in the tier (Entei, Cobalion, Mega Sharpedo, Feraligatr, Honchkrow, etc.) and can Volt Switch out of some of its bad matchups to at least preserve momentum. I also agree with Do A Bibarel that Crawdaunt's effect on the meta will create a friendlier environment for Mega Ampharos.
As for Crawdaunt itself, A seems like a good place for it, at least to start. I could see it ending up in A+, but I think that Crawdaunt's ability to be effective is more situational than a lot of the Pokemon in higher ranks. My experience has been that Crawdaunt has been way more dependent on having a good team matchup than stuff like Salamence, Hydreigon, Mamoswine, Mega Beedrill, etc. That said, Crawdaunt does a lot of work in the right situation, and has just enough flexibility in its movepool to threaten its counters.
Heliolisk should remain at B+. Adding another 'mon to the tier that Heliolisk can check should at least mean it doesn't get worse, and if bulky Grass-types become more popular to deal with Crawdaunt, it might not have to worry about spamming Volt Switch as much. It's also got a nice speed tier, decent secondary STAB, and just enough coverage to hit what it needs to, which makes it worth using over other Specially focused Electric-types like Zapdos on some teams.
Suicune to A+ makes sense to me. It just doesn't feel as universally useful as the rest of S to me. That said, it's still an absurdly good Pokemon and should be at or near the top of A+.
Seismitoad should probably fall to C+. Crawdaunt dropping makes every Water resistance/immunity a little bit better, but Seismitoad doesn't really threaten it back that much. Honestly, the only time I can see Seismitoad being a good choice is if you need Swampert's typing and utility with an additional immunity to Water.
On that note, is it worth considering Gastrodon for somewhere in C? Storm Drain + instant recovery might make it worth using in some situations, especially if you need something with a Water immunity to soak Special attacks throughout a battle and can fit Stealth Rock on something else.
As for Crawdaunt itself, A seems like a good place for it, at least to start. I could see it ending up in A+, but I think that Crawdaunt's ability to be effective is more situational than a lot of the Pokemon in higher ranks. My experience has been that Crawdaunt has been way more dependent on having a good team matchup than stuff like Salamence, Hydreigon, Mamoswine, Mega Beedrill, etc. That said, Crawdaunt does a lot of work in the right situation, and has just enough flexibility in its movepool to threaten its counters.
Heliolisk should remain at B+. Adding another 'mon to the tier that Heliolisk can check should at least mean it doesn't get worse, and if bulky Grass-types become more popular to deal with Crawdaunt, it might not have to worry about spamming Volt Switch as much. It's also got a nice speed tier, decent secondary STAB, and just enough coverage to hit what it needs to, which makes it worth using over other Specially focused Electric-types like Zapdos on some teams.
Suicune to A+ makes sense to me. It just doesn't feel as universally useful as the rest of S to me. That said, it's still an absurdly good Pokemon and should be at or near the top of A+.
Seismitoad should probably fall to C+. Crawdaunt dropping makes every Water resistance/immunity a little bit better, but Seismitoad doesn't really threaten it back that much. Honestly, the only time I can see Seismitoad being a good choice is if you need Swampert's typing and utility with an additional immunity to Water.
On that note, is it worth considering Gastrodon for somewhere in C? Storm Drain + instant recovery might make it worth using in some situations, especially if you need something with a Water immunity to soak Special attacks throughout a battle and can fit Stealth Rock on something else.
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I honestly think putting Crawdaunt in anything below A+ would be underselling it. Yes, its effectiveness may be more situational than other A+ rank mons, but good players will manage to bring out its full potential and get it in on the right situation with double switches and momentum. It might be slow and frail, but that doesn't take away from how well it does its job. It is one heck of a powerhouse and will make the opponent pay massively whenever it does come in. Crawdaunt is also way more threatening than every mon in A rank. I see it to be at the very least on par with how good the other A+ rank mons are. Crawdaunt is going to be effective against every playstyle and force people to have at least two answers for it on every team, which can't be said about most of the other A/A+ mons.
I promote the rise of
Gardevoir to A-. It is as good, if not better, than some A- ranked 'mons such as Snorlax and Mienshao.
Gardevoir is a really underrated wallbreaker that definitely deserves to see more use. It can OHKO or 2HKO the entier tier thanks to its great power, excellent dual stabs and good coverage moves. With its nice typing and different sets (most notably CM and Specs), it choses what checks or counters it. Supposed checks such as Empoleon can switch in but are heavily punished if Gardevoir has CM. Similarly, Gardevoir does well against all playstyles, can fit most teams and has defensive utility: its great defensive typing gives it many setup or switch-in opportunities, which differenciates it from other wallbreakers. For all these reasons, Gardevoir should rise in viability rankings.
Edit: I precised my post to show why I think Gardevoir needs to rise, as I have been told my post wasn't great.
Gardevoir is a really underrated wallbreaker that definitely deserves to see more use. It can OHKO or 2HKO the entier tier thanks to its great power, excellent dual stabs and good coverage moves. With its nice typing and different sets (most notably CM and Specs), it choses what checks or counters it. Supposed checks such as Empoleon can switch in but are heavily punished if Gardevoir has CM. Similarly, Gardevoir does well against all playstyles, can fit most teams and has defensive utility: its great defensive typing gives it many setup or switch-in opportunities, which differenciates it from other wallbreakers. For all these reasons, Gardevoir should rise in viability rankings.
Edit: I precised my post to show why I think Gardevoir needs to rise, as I have been told my post wasn't great.
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I'm pretty uncertain when it comes to ranking Gardevoir any higher than B+. On the one hand, it's strong as hell. I ran some calcs on it the other day, and most of its sets are very strong and reliable. With its coverage and Special Attack stat, it can easily punch holes in unprepared teams. However, it's still lacking in a few areas, mainly its speed and physical bulk. 80 base speed means that Gardevoir fails to outspeed a number of threatening Pokemon, including Mamoswine, Chandelure, Nidoking, and Heracross, not to mention some of the actual "fast" offensive Pokemon, most of which also outpace its Scarf set as well. This wouldn't be as much of an issue if most physical attacks didn't put Gardevoir in danger of being KO'd. Priority moves like Machamp's Bullet Punch, Entei's Extreme Speed, and Mamoswine's Ice Shard all either 2HKO Gardevoir or have an incredibly high chance to do so, especially after Rocks are up. This brief analysis doesn't even factor in some of the stronger physical attacks, which often shatter Gardevoir completely. This means that Gardevoir is unable to effectively make use of its typing, which grants it, among other things, and immunity to Dragon-type moves and a quadruple resistance to Fighting-type moves. However, most of its resistances don't really matter on the physical side, because a lot of the 'mons that Gardevoir's typing might help it check can still 2HKO it with other moves, which isn't hard considering that Gardevoir can't outspeed most of them.
Anyway, I'd say that Gardevoir is definitely promising as a wallbreaker, there are enough things holding it back to where I'd keep it B+, at least for the time being. My opinion is definitely liable to change, though.
EDIT: The Calm Mind set also looks really cool, but Gardevoir's lack of reliable recovery and poor physical bulk make it outclassed by Reuniclus in most cases. It doesn't seem terrible, though.
Anyway, I'd say that Gardevoir is definitely promising as a wallbreaker, there are enough things holding it back to where I'd keep it B+, at least for the time being. My opinion is definitely liable to change, though.
EDIT: The Calm Mind set also looks really cool, but Gardevoir's lack of reliable recovery and poor physical bulk make it outclassed by Reuniclus in most cases. It doesn't seem terrible, though.
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I think Gardevoir is probably fine where it is now, at least for the moment. I don't think that it can realistically compare in viability to most of A-. Perhaps that'll change as the meta shifts.
Regarding two nominations that were NOT mentioned, these two are related: I believe Mega-Aggron should drop to B, and Mega-Steelix should rise to C+.
Mega-Aggron is still a solid 'mon, but it ends up being fairly passive and struggles against the stronger bulky offense that mostly dominates the metagame, as its lack of recovery means it gets easily worn down. It still has a place on more defensive balance and stall teams, but its use outside of these teams is going to be fairly niche, as most teams would prefer a physically defensive Steel type that brings something else to the table, such as Doublade or Cobalion. The classic Florges + MAggron core just isn't nearly as good as it used to be.
Also, while it certainly still has a place on many stall and balance teams, it's not a required 'mon by any stretch of the imagination - I'd almost certainly argue, for example, that it's less of a "required" 'mon for stall than Blissey, who is currently sitting in B- (not to say that you can't build stall without Blissey of course, just that it's more common there than MAggron). In fact, a lot of stall teams tend to discard it entirely in favor of other bulky Steels - and that's where my next nomination comes into play.
Mega-Steelix fulfills many of the same roles as Mega-Aggron. It is less effective overall as a big fat chunk of metal that sits around and soaks up hits thanks to the fact that it lacks Filter, but it has a couple of important attributes. The biggest is the Volt Switch immunity, which is absolutely vital for many stall teams that can struggle against VoltTurn, and in fact I see that a lot of prominent stall teams have switched from MAggron to MLix for this reason. The second reason is that MLix is more useful offensively, primarily thanks to the power of its STAB Earthquake. I've actually been using Adamant Mega-Steelix with EQ/Heavy Slam/Stone Edge/SR on a balance team of mine lately, and a four attacks Brave Mega-Steelix on an offensive Trick Room team, and its offensive potential is actually surprisingly good. I'll pull up some replays in a bit, but I think that in general C is a bit low for the Worm when I compare it to the rest of what's there.
EDIT:
I've been running CM + 3 attacks Gardy with LO, and it's actually got a lot of potential. It hits hard even without a boost and easily forces switches, so getting a CM in isn't actually that hard. I've been using it on offensive teams as a stall/balance breaker, and it has consistently put in a lot of work. I still think Specs is its most useful set overall, but there's a lot of merit to CM LO. (Seriously, take a look at most stall teams in the current meta, and ask yourself how well they handle CM Gardy. Chances are if they aren't packing Doublade, the answer is not very well - and Doublade has to fear Shadow Ball or a boosted Moonblast when switching in.)
Regarding two nominations that were NOT mentioned, these two are related: I believe Mega-Aggron should drop to B, and Mega-Steelix should rise to C+.
Mega-Aggron is still a solid 'mon, but it ends up being fairly passive and struggles against the stronger bulky offense that mostly dominates the metagame, as its lack of recovery means it gets easily worn down. It still has a place on more defensive balance and stall teams, but its use outside of these teams is going to be fairly niche, as most teams would prefer a physically defensive Steel type that brings something else to the table, such as Doublade or Cobalion. The classic Florges + MAggron core just isn't nearly as good as it used to be.
Also, while it certainly still has a place on many stall and balance teams, it's not a required 'mon by any stretch of the imagination - I'd almost certainly argue, for example, that it's less of a "required" 'mon for stall than Blissey, who is currently sitting in B- (not to say that you can't build stall without Blissey of course, just that it's more common there than MAggron). In fact, a lot of stall teams tend to discard it entirely in favor of other bulky Steels - and that's where my next nomination comes into play.
Mega-Steelix fulfills many of the same roles as Mega-Aggron. It is less effective overall as a big fat chunk of metal that sits around and soaks up hits thanks to the fact that it lacks Filter, but it has a couple of important attributes. The biggest is the Volt Switch immunity, which is absolutely vital for many stall teams that can struggle against VoltTurn, and in fact I see that a lot of prominent stall teams have switched from MAggron to MLix for this reason. The second reason is that MLix is more useful offensively, primarily thanks to the power of its STAB Earthquake. I've actually been using Adamant Mega-Steelix with EQ/Heavy Slam/Stone Edge/SR on a balance team of mine lately, and a four attacks Brave Mega-Steelix on an offensive Trick Room team, and its offensive potential is actually surprisingly good. I'll pull up some replays in a bit, but I think that in general C is a bit low for the Worm when I compare it to the rest of what's there.
EDIT:
I've been running CM + 3 attacks Gardy with LO, and it's actually got a lot of potential. It hits hard even without a boost and easily forces switches, so getting a CM in isn't actually that hard. I've been using it on offensive teams as a stall/balance breaker, and it has consistently put in a lot of work. I still think Specs is its most useful set overall, but there's a lot of merit to CM LO. (Seriously, take a look at most stall teams in the current meta, and ask yourself how well they handle CM Gardy. Chances are if they aren't packing Doublade, the answer is not very well - and Doublade has to fear Shadow Ball or a boosted Moonblast when switching in.)
Just to be clear, the CM set is not played like a reuniclus as it is not a bulky setup sweeper. It does not run max defense etc, but rather an offensive set with Calm Mind to be used on predicted switches or weak special attackers. The reason I find it to be really effective is because Gardevoir forces a ton of 50-50s due to its effective stabs. So instead of hoping you guess that 50-50 correctly, you can just CM and be in a fantastic position. Aside from that, it 6-0s stall which is also cool!
Edit: CM Lefties and LO are both viable, but Lefties is usually better for stall while LO is better vs balance
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I totally agree its about time mega aggron dropped i was just about to nominate its spd is too shallow, and itss hard to fit it on to my teams because cobalion and doublade just offers more and even forrtress fits onto teams better and worst it has to compete for a mega slot, and no recovery makes it way to easy to wear down and it requires way to much support for b+.
Speaking of rankings can I get a good reason why tangrwoth dropped all the way to b- can we rise it up a little there is no way its just as vialble as donaphan or forretress.
I would like to nominate Porygon-Z to rise to B+. I think it's current B ranking is really underestimating it's potential in the current meta, as it's really good this meta. Choice Specs is easily it's best set, as it is an amazing wallbreaker that also has decent speed to back up. It can also use Trick to cripple walls on bulkier stallish teams that it can't break through as easily. Choice Scarf is also a really nice revenge killer and cleaner with amazing power thanks to Adapability and 135 Special Attack. Double Dance sets are pretty cool as they can threaten offense in Agility and fat teams with Nasty Plot. Overall, while PZ still has problems like it's frailty and average 90 speed making it rather easy to revenge if not Scarf, the amount of slower bulkier and bulky offense teams running around right now makes Porygon-Z's life so much easier, and for that I believe a rise is necessary.
A bit on the fence with Brandon's nomination. I made a joint nomination with Brobat last year about Porygon-Z, but we came to the general concensus that LO Mixed Adaptability Porygon-Z with Double Edge and Tri Attack was by far the best wall-breaking set, but I digress.
In this cycle, we see a lot of Pokemon that answered Porygon-Z, either as a check or a counter, drop in viability, which is certainly points in Porygon-Z's favor. On the other hand, the introduction of Sableye and Metagross generates two solid answers to Porygon-Z. I want to take some time to check out some calculations for Porygon-Z against typical bulky Sweepers and other strong Bulky Pokemon in this metagame. The EVs are 76 Att / 180 SpA / 252 Spe Mild with moves Tri Attack/Double-Edge/Thunderbolt/Dark Pulse.
From these calcs, we can conclude that Porygon-Z has the potential to 2HKO everything mentioned above, which is pretty fantastic. The mixed set benefits slightly from the metagame, but overall is not resilient due to weardown from Life Orb and Double-Edge. You can use Frustration if you want. Just multiply the percentage for Double-Edge by 5/6. However, many of the B+ wallbreakers can achieve OHKOs because of type advantage, and although Porygon-Z does have Adaptibility, it's not enough to completely mitigate its lack of a super-effective STAB to abuse for wallbreaking.
I also personally feel that Mega-Houndoom should drop back down to B+. You are free to either verify or invalidate my next few words, but I personally think that the shift toward Bulky Offense or Offense in general gives Mega Houndoom less opportunities to set up and sweep, even with the 115 Speed. With the official addition of Crawdaunt into UU, Houndoom's chances to sweep are lowered considerably.
EDIT: doesn't work, newfren.
In this cycle, we see a lot of Pokemon that answered Porygon-Z, either as a check or a counter, drop in viability, which is certainly points in Porygon-Z's favor. On the other hand, the introduction of Sableye and Metagross generates two solid answers to Porygon-Z. I want to take some time to check out some calculations for Porygon-Z against typical bulky Sweepers and other strong Bulky Pokemon in this metagame. The EVs are 76 Att / 180 SpA / 252 Spe Mild with moves Tri Attack/Double-Edge/Thunderbolt/Dark Pulse.
Reuniclus
180+ SpA Life Orb Adaptability Porygon-Z Tri Attack vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Reuniclus: 278-330 (65.5 - 77.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
180+ SpA Life Orb Porygon-Z Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Reuniclus: 278-330 (65.5 - 77.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
4 SpA Reuniclus Psyshock vs. 0 HP / 0- Def Porygon-Z: 157-186 (50.4 - 59.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Florges
76 Atk Life Orb Adaptability Porygon-Z Double-Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Florges: 190-224 (52.7 - 62.2%) -- 98.4% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
4 SpA Florges Moonblast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Porygon-Z: 144-169 (46.3 - 54.3%) -- 53.1% chance to 2HKO
Suicune
180+ SpA Life Orb Adaptability Porygon-Z Tri Attack vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Suicune: 218-257 (53.9 - 63.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
4 SpA Suicune Scald vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Porygon-Z: 102-120 (32.7 - 38.5%) -- 98.5% chance to 3HKO
Zapdos
180+ SpA Life Orb Adaptability Porygon-Z Tri Attack vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Zapdos: 268-317 (69.9 - 82.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
0 SpA Zapdos Thunderbolt vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Porygon-Z: 150-177 (48.2 - 56.9%) -- 89.1% chance to 2HKO
Cobalion
180+ SpA Life Orb Porygon-Z Thunderbolt vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Cobalion: 181-213 (55.8 - 65.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Empoleon
180+ SpA Life Orb Porygon-Z Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Empoleon: 198-234 (53.2 - 62.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Swampert
180+ SpA Life Orb Adaptability Porygon-Z Tri Attack vs. 240 HP / 0 SpD Swampert: 268-317 (66.8 - 79%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
16 Atk Swampert Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0- Def Porygon-Z: 178-210 (57.2 - 67.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Snorlax
76 Atk Life Orb Adaptability Porygon-Z Double-Edge vs. 144 HP / 188 Def Snorlax: 226-268 (45.4 - 53.9%) -- 2% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
0 Atk Snorlax Body Slam vs. 0 HP / 0- Def Porygon-Z: 148-175 (47.5 - 56.2%) -- 82.8% chance to 2HKO
180+ SpA Life Orb Adaptability Porygon-Z Tri Attack vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Reuniclus: 278-330 (65.5 - 77.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
180+ SpA Life Orb Porygon-Z Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Reuniclus: 278-330 (65.5 - 77.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
4 SpA Reuniclus Psyshock vs. 0 HP / 0- Def Porygon-Z: 157-186 (50.4 - 59.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Florges
76 Atk Life Orb Adaptability Porygon-Z Double-Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Florges: 190-224 (52.7 - 62.2%) -- 98.4% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
4 SpA Florges Moonblast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Porygon-Z: 144-169 (46.3 - 54.3%) -- 53.1% chance to 2HKO
Suicune
180+ SpA Life Orb Adaptability Porygon-Z Tri Attack vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Suicune: 218-257 (53.9 - 63.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
4 SpA Suicune Scald vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Porygon-Z: 102-120 (32.7 - 38.5%) -- 98.5% chance to 3HKO
Zapdos
180+ SpA Life Orb Adaptability Porygon-Z Tri Attack vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Zapdos: 268-317 (69.9 - 82.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
0 SpA Zapdos Thunderbolt vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Porygon-Z: 150-177 (48.2 - 56.9%) -- 89.1% chance to 2HKO
Cobalion
180+ SpA Life Orb Porygon-Z Thunderbolt vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Cobalion: 181-213 (55.8 - 65.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Empoleon
180+ SpA Life Orb Porygon-Z Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Empoleon: 198-234 (53.2 - 62.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Swampert
180+ SpA Life Orb Adaptability Porygon-Z Tri Attack vs. 240 HP / 0 SpD Swampert: 268-317 (66.8 - 79%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
16 Atk Swampert Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0- Def Porygon-Z: 178-210 (57.2 - 67.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Snorlax
76 Atk Life Orb Adaptability Porygon-Z Double-Edge vs. 144 HP / 188 Def Snorlax: 226-268 (45.4 - 53.9%) -- 2% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
0 Atk Snorlax Body Slam vs. 0 HP / 0- Def Porygon-Z: 148-175 (47.5 - 56.2%) -- 82.8% chance to 2HKO
From these calcs, we can conclude that Porygon-Z has the potential to 2HKO everything mentioned above, which is pretty fantastic. The mixed set benefits slightly from the metagame, but overall is not resilient due to weardown from Life Orb and Double-Edge. You can use Frustration if you want. Just multiply the percentage for Double-Edge by 5/6. However, many of the B+ wallbreakers can achieve OHKOs because of type advantage, and although Porygon-Z does have Adaptibility, it's not enough to completely mitigate its lack of a super-effective STAB to abuse for wallbreaking.
I also personally feel that Mega-Houndoom should drop back down to B+. You are free to either verify or invalidate my next few words, but I personally think that the shift toward Bulky Offense or Offense in general gives Mega Houndoom less opportunities to set up and sweep, even with the 115 Speed. With the official addition of Crawdaunt into UU, Houndoom's chances to sweep are lowered considerably.
EDIT: doesn't work, newfren.
Can someone explain why exactly Froslass dropped in rank? Spike stacking offence was good and is only improving with the reintroduction of Sableye. Granted Defog is far more common but your typical spike stacking team would encompass 2 or more taunters make the common presence of Defog manageable. Its one of a kind niche is still good and should be back at A- imo.
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They probably dropped it trying to fix the inflation of the viability rankings. I mean, considering on the last list a lot/most of the tier was placed into the A/A- ranking, so I think they kinda just moved what they thought to be the bottom of A- to B+. This doesn't mean froslass is any less viable in the tier as it is still near the top of B+ in the rankings as even with the introduction of sableye to improve its viability, it also introduces a problem for it in the form of a prankster taunt user to stop it from doing its job. I don't care too much if they decide to move froslass up or not, but I really just want to avoid having half the tier back up in the A/A- area.
As Reun said the adjustment of the rankings was not to insinuate that any mon dropped has lost viability, it was done to accurately represent where these mons belong instead of us having 30 mons in the A rankings and having no idea how viable they actually were in comparison to each other.
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