ORAS UU Viability Rankings V4

[Yugi]

Chandelure A - A-
Chandelure is a very prominent threat in UU but i dont think the metagame is favorable to it.The new drops hurt it(Mainly Sableye and Crawdaunt)because he cannot do much to them.His Physical bulk is lacking which is really problematic and he gets walled by too many things(No focus blast :( ) such as Hydreigon,Houndoom,Snorlax and many others.The relevance of water types and dark types hurt it because they take advantage of him.Scarfers such as Mence beat him and his 80 Speed with a scarf doesnt beat 145s which is quite sad and it gets beat by beedrill because of that.It also gets beat by the premiere Mega which is dactyl,gets beat by Feraligatr,its Menced Meat,but it has many merits though.It beats cobe,non-boosted Doublade,it beats non-rain pert with EBall but it doesnt do much else.

 

[Froggyboy]

252 SpA Choice Specs Chandelure Fire Blast vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Crawdaunt: 235-277 (87.6 - 103.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Choice Specs Chandelure Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Sableye: 274-324 (90.1 - 106.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
"cannot do much to them"
tbh i think chandelure is fine where it is, its a fantastic wallbreaker, the specs set kills like every offensive mon in the game and 2hkos like every wall, and the scarf set is good against offense as none of those faster mons you suggested can actually switch in.

http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/empire.3507503/ ???

A. That's an XY team.
B. He even replaced Reg Sharpedo and Reg Swampert with Aero and Luke.

With normal Aero, its fine where it is, super good lead, though I dont really like suicide leads in the first place since most teams should have some sort of hazard control, unless its HO, but you guys obviously value them if froslass is as high as it is so its whatev.

 

[Schpoonman]

Yeah, I'm wondering why you think Sableye hurts Chandelure. You switch in for free on most of its moveset and even get Flash Fire off Will-O-Wisp. Chandelure's attack is so bad that, with 0 Attack IVs, you even avoid the 2HKO on Foul Play. Crawdaunt, as always, can't switch in, so Crawdaunt isn't hurting Chandelure enough to drop it.

 

[Yugi]

I run knock off on my sets so it does hurt him
+ i run confuse ray and i happen to win every match i go up against a chandy with my sab.

 

[jjoshcja]

Holy crap, Yabo with the knowledge. +1

Npert and it's competitors also saw a lot of use on offense all through gens 4/5 and still see use on well made offensive teams in XY/ORAS. Fat phasers are really damn good at setting up sweeps and offer heavy role compression. (I know there's a replay of npert sending an entire team into puff sweep range in the better battlers thread)

Edit: Found it: Textbook swampert use on offense
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-uu-58019

B- gastro is long overdue.

Leave chandy where it is, burny ghost has a shitty speed tier but the raw power, utility movepool, and typing give chandy a huge and completely unchallenged niche in UU.

 

[Mar1onette]

I run knock off on my sets so it does hurt him
+ i run confuse ray and i happen to win every match i go up against a chandy with my sab.

Well seeing as people with common sense aren't just going to blindly switch into sableye knowing that knock off is common as hell on it, so yeah sableye can do decent damage to chandy but its presence in the tier does not "hurt" its viability, it can cause decent damage but that in itself is not huge enough to hurt its viability to call for a drop. Also, Confuse Ray is completely luck based, you can say that confuse ray is a relevant argument because it can make chandy hit itself with that 50%, but you can also say that it won't help at all and will just waste a turn and potentially a poke, therefore not a relevant argument.

P.S- Also, Chandy could also be a she not just a "he"

 

[Garchomp for president]

Chandelure A - A-
Chandelure is a very prominent threat in UU but i dont think the metagame is favorable to it.The new drops hurt it(Mainly Sableye and Crawdaunt)because he cannot do much to them.His Physical bulk is lacking which is really problematic and he gets walled by too many things(No focus blast :( ) such as Hydreigon,Houndoom,Snorlax and many others.The relevance of water types and dark types hurt it because they take advantage of him.Scarfers such as Mence beat him and his 80 Speed with a scarf doesnt beat 145s which is quite sad and it gets beat by beedrill because of that.It also gets beat by the premiere Mega which is dactyl,gets beat by Feraligatr,its Menced Meat,but it has many merits though.It beats cobe,non-boosted Doublade,it beats non-rain pert with EBall but it doesnt do much else.

Chandelure is fine where it is, Sableye and Crawdaunt are checks at best and will not be able to switch into Chandelure at all. The only time Sableye will ever see Chandelure is when it's switching in to take a Fire Blast to the face. Crawdaunt definitely will take Chandelure down, but Chandelure should never get sent out on Crawdaunt in the first place. Also for your, "It doesn't do much else"

252 SpA Chandelure Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Espeon: 234-276 (70 - 82.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

252 SpA Choice Specs Chandelure Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 136+ SpD Eviolite Porygon2: 160-190 (42.7 - 50.8%) -- 96.9% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock

252 SpA Choice Specs Chandelure Fire Blast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Hydreigon: 159-188 (48.9 - 57.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

252 SpA Choice Specs Chandelure Fire Blast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mega Houndoom: 159-188 (54.6 - 64.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

252 SpA Choice Specs Chandelure Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Filter Mega Aggron: 364-429 (105.8 - 124.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO


Confuse Ray is bad and you should feel bad.

 

[The Heartless Dictator]

Confuse Ray on Sableye is a terrible gimmick move. Sure, people wouldn't see it coming at all, but it is way too unreliable to begin with and could potentially cost you the match.

I also agree that Chandelure should remain at A. Even with the crayfish dropping down here, Chandy is still a deadly special wallbreaker that is very difficult to switch into without losing a member of your team.

 

[Yugi]

Chandelure is fine where it is, Sableye and Crawdaunt are checks at best and will not be able to switch into Chandelure at all. The only time Sableye will ever see Chandelure is when it's switching in to take a Fire Blast to the face. Crawdaunt definitely will take Chandelure down, but Chandelure should never get sent out on Crawdaunt in the first place. Also for your, "It doesn't do much else"

252 SpA Chandelure Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Espeon: 234-276 (70 - 82.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

252 SpA Choice Specs Chandelure Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 136+ SpD Eviolite Porygon2: 160-190 (42.7 - 50.8%) -- 96.9% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock

252 SpA Choice Specs Chandelure Fire Blast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Hydreigon: 159-188 (48.9 - 57.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

252 SpA Choice Specs Chandelure Fire Blast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mega Houndoom: 159-188 (54.6 - 64.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

252 SpA Choice Specs Chandelure Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Filter Mega Aggron: 364-429 (105.8 - 124.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO


Confuse Ray is bad and you should feel bad.

Bruh,Calc those against something like an umbreon and feel bad lol,and lol mega houndoom doesnt mega evolve as soon as it goes right in the field(those arent the mechanics)but it retains his/her flashfire ability
smh.
Pory isnt switching in because it cant do jack shit to it(besides thunder wave and it has recover) and espeon isnt switching in on a ghost type are you nuts and if hydra switches in on a choice specs FB then chandy will get outsped and forced out into something else lol.The mega aggron calc is ok but since aggron isnt that common anymore...also i use confuse ray so i dont get walled by fire types.Now you should feel bad.

 

[silenced]

Bruh,Calc those against something like an umbreon and feel bad lol,and lol mega houndoom doesnt mega evolve as soon as it goes right in the field(those arent the mechanics)but it retains his/her flashfire ability
smh.
Pory isnt switching in because it cant do jack shit to it(besides thunder wave and it has recover) and espeon isnt switching in on a ghost type are you nuts and if hydra switches in on a choice specs FB then chandy will get outsped and forced out into something else lol.The mega aggron calc is ok but since aggron isnt that common anymore...also i use confuse ray so i dont get walled by fire types.Now you should feel bad.

Confuse Ray is bad full stop. 50% of the time its a waste of turn. Any sort of confusion move used should either be from a damaging attack (e.g dynamic punch), or be abused in combination with another move (see the shitstorm that got swagger banned to ubers). Using any sort of move needs to grab you some sort of guaranteed benefit such as damage/item loss/setting up a pokemon to sweep. Confuse ray does not provide said benefit because there is no guarantee something will hit itself in confusion.

If you're that serious about hitting fire types with Sableye, either knock off or foul play should be used, and only those.

Also in regards to a calc earlier, P2 does switch in on chandelure as trace lets it grab flash fire to wall it, although the risk of trick is pretty high these days.

Oh right...keep chandelure A. Although it is pressed to match it against every playstyle in its 4 moves, it is quite capable of matching it against offence with its scarf set, while creating serious headaches for both balance and stall with SubCM, though the scarf set still works very well there too.

 

[Wish9]

Bruh,Calc those against something like an umbreon and feel bad lol

I hope you enjoy Umbreon getting crippled by Trick.

 

[MrAldo]

The fact that you are justifying the use of confuse ray for whatever drops any potential credibility your nomination could have. I dont mind the fact that you use confuse ray for whatever reason but please.

Regarding chandelure, it is perfectly fine where it is. Speed issues could be said about any wallbreaker (something something crawdaunt) but the unique typing let chandelure provide amazing support provided with outstanding wallbreaker potential. All of the potential sets chandelure could run means that only hydreigon, mega houndoom and snorlax to some sets remains as the most consistent answer against them all, one is already a mega and that implies opportunity cost.

Curse rest talk snorlax cant PP stall sub calm mind variants and any curse snorlax variant hates getting tricked a choice item, umbreon gets crippled by trick and

252 SpA Choice Specs Chandelure Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Umbreon: 175-207 (44.4 - 52.5%) -- 80.9% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

Fun. Better keep that umbreon above 80... Scarfers have lost a ton of relevancy on the latter with salamence and mienshao being the most relevant, but salamence is mostly seen as a dragon dancer or offensive defog and mienshao, well, it is more uncommon.

Have to admit crawdaunt introduction and mega houndoom gaining more relevance does hurt chandelure but that isnt enough to drop it just yet. I think you made an interesting nomination but attacked it from the wrong tangent. Sableye isnt a problem for chandelure, at all. In fact, sableye is so annoying that chandelure gets better cause makes sableye think twice about spamming will-o.

Keep chandy in A. Not convinced it is just worst than anything in A, and a lot better than some stuff in A- (looking at you, slowking)

 

[Yugi]

I fully understand chandys capabilities because of my bandwagon it rose to A.(look at either the second version of the thread or the third and you will find me proposing a rise on chandy)but i think the meta has changed to the point that it needs to drop in my view.

 

[Froggyboy]

A. You didn't have a bandwagon, most of the posts in response to your nom was actually saying that your way of nomming was incorrect.
B. Just because you suggested a raise and it happened doesn't mean you have an authority to lower that mon whenever you want.

Can we stop the Chandelure discussion now? It's very clear it isn't going to happen and just derails the thread with nonsense.

 

[Yugi]

A.Look at the second VR thread no-one was gonna raise it
B.No i dont have the authority to lower it whenever i want and i know that.

 

[SuperSixFighters]

Hi. I'm gonna nominate this pokemon :)

Gastrodon to C+ or B: Agree with this. Gastrodon has a lot of good moves and can serve as a bulkier Swampert. It checks suicine and gets reliable recovery in recover too. It isn't the strongest offensively but its good typing, access to curse, recover, pain split and water absorb mean it really needs ranking. Beats quagsire anyday even before considering Sticky hold can also be used for knock off.

 

[Garchomp for president]

We have Seismitoad and Quagsire on viability rankings and we don't even list Gastrodon ._.

Supporting C ranking

 

[Mar1onette]

Hi. I'm gonna nominate this pokemon :)

Gastrodon to C+ or B: Agree with this. Gastrodon has a lot of good moves and can serve as a bulkier Swampert. It checks suicine and gets reliable recovery in recover too. It isn't the strongest offensively but its good typing, access to curse, recover, pain split and water absorb mean it really needs ranking. Beats quagsire anyday even before considering Sticky hold can also be used for knock off.

Gastrodon should only be ranked for its walling/support capabilities because any of its other sets are sub par in UU and aren't as good as its defensive set. Also, why use pain split ever when you have recover, and if you have sticky hold, then your no longer a check/counter to suicune, one of its niche's over swampart. Quag has a niche over gastro being a "decent" unaware wall with reliable recovery being able to stop some sweepers. I don't have anything against gastro getting a rank but not just for those reasons.
After saying that, I don't think that gastro should be ranked C+ or any higher because it faces so much competition in UU and it's niche that it does have is Decent at best, Stormdrain is good and all but both seis and vapo have water absorb as well, they might not get the Spa boost like gastro ,but it's not like it can properly abuse that boost, and just isn't on the same level as the other C+ mons and I don't really see any valuable niche that makes it so much better then quag to be a rank above it. As for its walling capabilities, it does wall decently well and has access to memento which is a great niche it has over other bulky water types. Gastro----> C

 

[SuperSixFighters]

Gastrodon should only be ranked for its walling/support capabilities because any of its other sets are sub par in UU and aren't as good as its defensive set. Also, why use pain split ever when you have recover, and if you have sticky hold, then your no longer a check/counter to suicune, one of its niche's over swampart. Quag has a niche over gastro being a "decent" unaware wall with reliable recovery being able to stop some sweepers. I don't have anything against gastro getting a rank but not just for those reasons.
After saying that, I don't think that gastro should be ranked C+ or any higher because it faces so much competition in UU and it's niche that it does have is Decent at best, Stormdrain is good and all but both seis and vapo have water absorb as well, they might not get the Spa boost like gastro ,but it's not like it can properly abuse that boost, and just isn't on the same level as the other C+ mons and I don't really see any valuable niche that makes it so much better then quag to be a rank above it. As for its walling capabilities, it does wall decently well and has access to memento which is a great niche it has over other bulky water types. Gastro----> C

Good reasoning. I think it deserves at least c rank. It is easily above Seismitoad.

 

[Garchomp for president]

Good reasoning. I think it deserves at least c rank. It is easily above Seismitoad.

That's debatable. Seismitoad has better spread out defenses and Stealth Rocks. Plus it gets Water Absorb, a better ability for a wall than Storm Drain.

 

[canasian]

While I don't think the value of a water-immune 'mon with reliable recovery can be dismissed, I actually think Seismitoad does in fact do the job (being "answering Scald users, particularly Suicune") better, thanks to Power-Up Punch. While Gastrodon has to run Curse to actually beat Suicune (the most threatening Scald user), Seismitoad can run Stealth Rock/Power-Up Punch/Earthquake/Scald or Knock Off to beat Suicune (or other bulky Water-types) while maintaining its utility and role compression.

Gastrodon seems effective enough to be ranked, but I think it should be ranked below Toad.

 

[DiscoDucky]

I do not think Gastrodon should be ranked at all. Athough its defensive sets can switch in on mono-Attack Suicune and Mega Swampert, it can't do much back.

0 SpA Gastrodon Earth Power vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Mega Swampert: 84-99 (24.6 - 29%) -- 99.6% chance to 4HKO
0 SpA Gastrodon Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Suicune: 81-96 (20 - 23.7%) -- possible 6HKO after Leftovers recovery

This is just a small part of Gastrodon's issue as a whole: its passiveness. Its low-powered attacks and lack of utility outside of Toxic invites a lot of Pokemon to switch in and take advantage of it. Although a +1 Gastrodon may alleviate the issue of passiveness, a good player tends to be more cautious about spamming Water-moves if the opponent has a Water-immune Pokemon on his or her team.
Compared to its closest counterpart, Seismitoad, and Water-immune Pokemon in general, Gastrodon offers miniscule benefits to one's team. Because of its access to support moves like Knock Off and Stealth Rock, Seismitoad is, at face value, better than Gastrodon for team slot efficiency (role compression). For many balance and defensive playstyles, there are better options for an answer to Suicune and other Water-types in the tier that offer more team support than Gastrodon does.

tl;dr (even though the post isn't even that long): Water immunity or safe switch-in to Suicune does not mean that said Pokemon is viable. Gastrodon offers very little to a team and is extremely passive. There's always something better in the tier to answer Suicune.

 

[Garchomp for president]

I do not think Gastrodon should be ranked at all. Athough its defensive sets can switch in on mono-Attack Suicune and Mega Swampert, it can't do much back.

0 SpA Gastrodon Earth Power vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Mega Swampert: 84-99 (24.6 - 29%) -- 99.6% chance to 4HKO
0 SpA Gastrodon Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Suicune: 81-96 (20 - 23.7%) -- possible 6HKO after Leftovers recovery

This is just a small part of Gastrodon's issue as a whole: its passiveness. Its low-powered attacks and lack of utility outside of Toxic invites a lot of Pokemon to switch in and take advantage of it. Although a +1 Gastrodon may alleviate the issue of passiveness, a good player tends to be more cautious about spamming Water-moves if the opponent has a Water-immune Pokemon on his or her team.
Compared to its closest counterpart, Seismitoad, and Water-immune Pokemon in general, Gastrodon offers miniscule benefits to one's team. Because of its access to support moves like Knock Off and Stealth Rock, Seismitoad is, at face value, better than Gastrodon for team slot efficiency (role compression). For many balance and defensive playstyles, there are better options for an answer to Suicune and other Water-types in the tier that offer more team support than Gastrodon does.

tl;dr (even though the post isn't even that long): Water immunity or safe switch-in to Suicune does not mean that said Pokemon is viable. Gastrodon offers very little to a team and is extremely passive. There's always something better in the tier to answer Suicune.

252+ Atk Choice Band Entei Extreme Speed vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Gastrodon: 120-142 (28.1 - 33.3%) -- 93.3% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 Atk Crobat Brave Bird vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Gastrodon: 141-166 (33 - 38.9%) -- 8.6% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

252+ Atk Metagross Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Gastrodon: 113-133 (26.5 - 31.2%) -- 15.6% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 Atk Adaptability Mega Beedrill U-turn vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Gastrodon: 156-184 (36.6 - 43.1%) -- 98.6% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

+2 252 Atk Aggron Heavy Slam (120 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Gastrodon: 159-188 (37.3 - 44.1%) -- 100% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 Atk Life Orb Adaptability Crawdaunt Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Gastrodon: 239-283 (56.1 - 66.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Not the best wall ever but it does have a niche and deserves to be listed. Also Scald?

 

[jjoshcja]

Curse gastro is pretty decent as a secondary wincon and removes most of it's passive drawbacks.

Curse/scald/EQ/recover saw some respectable use and peaks back in the day.

 

[Pinkin Lark]

252+ Atk Choice Band Entei Extreme Speed vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Gastrodon: 120-142 (28.1 - 33.3%) -- 93.3% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 Atk Crobat Brave Bird vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Gastrodon: 141-166 (33 - 38.9%) -- 8.6% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

252+ Atk Metagross Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Gastrodon: 113-133 (26.5 - 31.2%) -- 15.6% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 Atk Adaptability Mega Beedrill U-turn vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Gastrodon: 156-184 (36.6 - 43.1%) -- 98.6% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

+2 252 Atk Aggron Heavy Slam (120 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Gastrodon: 159-188 (37.3 - 44.1%) -- 100% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 Atk Life Orb Adaptability Crawdaunt Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Gastrodon: 239-283 (56.1 - 66.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Not the best wall ever but it does have a niche and deserves to be listed. Also Scald?

I mean.. I can do those calcs too..

check these calcs

252+ Atk Choice Band Entei Extreme Speed vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Corsola: 53-62 (16.8 - 19.7%) -- possible 7HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Choice Band Crobat Brave Bird vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Corsola: 91-108 (28.9 - 34.3%) -- 99.7% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Metagross Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Corsola: 198-234 (63 - 74.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery Ignore this one...
252 Atk Adaptability Mega Beedrill U-turn vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Corsola: 136-162 (43.3 - 51.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
+2 252 Atk Aggron Heavy Slam (120 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Corsola: 280-330 (89.1 - 105%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO -- Isn't even guaranteed.. and dunno why this was a calc in the first place...
252 Atk Life Orb Adaptability Crawdaunt Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Corsola: 208-247 (66.2 - 78.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Not the best wall ever but it does have a niche and deserves to be listed. Also Scald/Rocks/Recovery/Regenerator?

Really though, Gastro tends to be a little too niche to really get much of a ranking. Even the set designed to counter Suicune is being negated by more Suicunes switching to Roar sets. If anything it would probably be C/C-, but I think there's also a want to avoid inflating the VR with every possible niche mon - just look how much people had to fight for Shedinja.

Stupid drafts only saving half my post, thank god for Copy/Paste...