ORAS UU Viability Rankings V5

[r0ady]

Chamaeleon for the banner​

Welcome to the UnderUsed Viability Thread! The preliminary rankings for each metagame (every three months, or any other important release) will be decided on by a handpicked group of people who have shown a deep and relevant understanding of the metagame and contributed to the last UU Viability thread. This group, though, is obviously subject to change.

So where do you come in? Well, after the preliminary rankings have been worked out by us, it's the entire community's job to refine those rankings to more accurately reflect the true viability of all relevant Pokemon in the UU metagame. Because our guesses will come before much meaningful experience using Pokemon will have occured, we can't be accurate enough without your help. Post about the Pokemon that you're experienced using, but try not to let your personal bias oversell any Pokemon.

The S tier contains a select few metagame-defining Pokemon, the best of the best, and the A tiers reflect on the Pokemon which are extremely effective but flawed in some aspects. The B tier is slightly more expansive, with the B+ tier representing Pokemon that are fairly common and threatening but don't quite make the cut for A-, while the B- tier represents Pokemon who fill minor, but relevant, niches. Below the B tier, the generic C tier displays the rest of the Pokemon that are usable in UU, but don't have a niche that is appreciated by most UU teams. Finally, the D rank will only include Pokemon that are tiered in UU by usage, but have no usability in the metagame.

The S through B+ ranks Pokemon are individually sorted within their rank by viability. This is quite subjective and thus, the order of the Pokemon in these five ranks will be determined ONLY by the viability ranking team. Do not make nominations for Pokemon to move up and down within their own ranks.

Viability Team Members:

Hide

dodmen
Sam
Hikari
IronBullet
King UU
Hogg
Pearl

S Rank:

Hydreigon

Mega Aerodactyl

Suicune

Celebi

A Rank:

A+ Rank

Entei

Mega Swampert

Sylveon

Mamoswine

Krookodile

Gyarados

A Rank

Cobalion

Mega Sceptile

Mega Beedrill

Reuniclus

Mega Sharpedo

Cresselia

Sableye

A- Rank

Whimsicott

Mega Blastoise

Nidoqueen

Empoleon

Tentacruel

Swampert

Infernape

Snorlax

Toxicroak

Heracross

Crobat

Conkeldurr

Florges

B Rank:

B+ Rank

Feraligatr

Lucario

Mienshao

Alomomola

Kyurem

Tornadus

Escavalier

Crawdaunt

Mega Houndoom

Slowking

Roserade

Chandelure

Metagross

Azelf

Rotom-Cut

Nidoking

Milotic

Froslass

B Rank

Mega Abomasnow

Mega Absol

Mega aggron

Arcanine

Blissey

Bronzong

Chesnaught

Diancie

Gardevoir

Doublade

Dragalge

Forretress

Gligar

Heliolisk

Jellicent

Machamp

Mandibuzz

Porygon2

Porygon-Z

Rotom-Heat

Shaymin

Slurpuff

Tyrantrum

Venomoth

B- Rank

Aerodactyl

Haxorous

Mega Ampharos

Cloyster

Darmanitan

Espeon

Galvantula

Hoopa

Qwilfish

Shuckle

Mega Steelix

Virizion

C Rank:

C+ Rank:

Dugtrio

Fletchinder

Honchkrow

Kingdra

Magneton

Meloetta

Seismitoad

Weezing

Uxie

Yanmega

Zoroark

C Rank

Donphan

Aromatisse

Gastrodon

Goodra

Moltres

Noivern

Omastar

Pangoro

Rhyperior

Sharpedo

Togetic

C- Rank

Accelgor

Druddigon

Mega Glalie

Granbull

Hitmonlee

Shedinja

Venusaur

D rank:

Vaporeon

New Pokemon:

latest update

Changes:
Whimsicott -> A-

Umbreon -> B-
Feraligatr -> B+
These were all explained pretty well in the posts above so go read those

Cobalion -> A: Dodmen summed up its issues pretty well, still a fantastic Pokemon, however isnt quite on the level as the other A+ mons

Haxorus -> B-: Losing mence is pretty big, as now its not outclassed in most of the rolls it can preform, could move it up further but could use some more discussion.

Things that were brought up and could use more discussion:

Heracross -> B+

Sableye -> A-
As for shark i was honestly taken aback at it getting nommed down as i was considering moving it up in A, im keeping it where it is now but if theres alot of opposition to it being in A ill move it.

 

[r0ady]

CHANGES

Sylveon -> A+ : Sylveon is without a doubt one of the biggest threats in the metagame right now, and there have been plenty of posts in support of this with little no to opposition.
Florges -> A- : Incredibly hard to justify using over Sylveon even with its access to one turn recovery, im actually not opposed to moving it down further if theres enough support
Cresselia -> A : Ridiculously easy to just slap on teams and use as a check to so many dangerous mons, this move has been long overdue.
Donphan -> C : enough support + not much reason to use this
Aromatisse -> C : Virtually no reason to use over sylveon besides marginally better physical bulk and immunity to taunt
Jolteon -> : Unranked : Only reason to use this before was i guess to outpseed zam, now it has no reason whatsoever

All the other noms that happened between dodmens final update and me posting this thread are not happening as of right now.

NOMS

Gardevoir -> B
Venusaur -> Unranked
Florges -> B+

 

[G-Luke]

Venusaur -> Unranked. Disagree. While as a denfensive Grass type I admit its not all that, the lack of Amoonguss allows it to have one niche, a Fairy and a Fighting resist. This coupled with good bulk and offensive presence (and access to Knock Off) should at least allow it to be in C- rank.

Gardevoir -> B. Undecided. The recent drop of Celebi and Sylveon both nerf it in its niche as an offensive Psychic and Fairy type, and while the Psychic typing is no saving grace, it does have SMALL niches over Sylveon, like the ability to hit steels, no reliance on Specs solely for offensive pressure, and a speed tier that doesnt scream I need Trick Room. Still they both really give it a hard time, but Im undecided whether if it should drop.

Florges -> B+. Definately Agree. Florges has been dreading the drop of Sylveon for ages and now that it has happened it should slide down in viability. Sylveon passes bigger Wishes. Has better overall bulk. Has much better offensive presence. You could argue that it can even provide momentum via Baton Pass. The old "one turn recovery" thing isnt all it cracks up to be, when this rrcovery move is easily PP stalled. Overall Sylveon is a better mon and I'm quite surprised Florges took this long to drop.

 

[Mazz]

Why are we so intent on Florges dropping when it's still a good Pokemon? Omfuga isn't always right y'know... The Calm Mind set is (still) ridiculously good, and it's also a cleric. I don't mind being wrong about Sylveon, but dropping Florges to B+ is a knee-jerk reaction. Pokemon with similar roles can coexist in the same or in nearby rankings. Nidoking and Nidoqueen** anybody? Christ if you're going to keep Sylveon at A+, then Florges is definitely A- material. Teams that rely on Forretress, Tentacruel (or any other Steel- or Poison-type for that matter) still fold to CM Florges like deck chairs on a cruise ship. Sylveon has to pick and choose between roles, while Florges can sort of do them simultaneously.

Even just a simple eye-test of what exists in A- and what's in B+ can tell you Florges belongs in A-. Also why is doomer in B+ lmao.

**I've made this argument before where in past metas they were ranked either in the same rank or much like this one, one below the other. Slyveon existing doesn't immediately invalidate Florges, and you'd be silly to think that was the case. Florges is a much better wincon, and Sylveon is a better nuke. They don't play the same, thus the existence of one shouldn't influence the other's ranking.

 

[G-Luke]

I never said Sylveon invalidates Florges. I said Florges should drop a Rank. Its not just the whole, Pokemon A dropped, so stop using Pokemon B. Its a matter of a change in the metagame itself. Teams are becoming more offensive, and while technically thats not all that good for both of them, Sylveon tends to do better in a more offensive environment than Florges, thanks to immediate power and the ability to provide momentum.

 

[Threw]

Yeah I've been saying this for a minute now, Garde isn't a bad mon but there's straight up very little reason to use it. Its Speed tier is better than Sylveon's but it still doesn't even approach being a "good" Speed tier, and it has nowhere near the bulk Sylv has, so offense (the only good playstyle rn) gives it the business every time. Even Modest Garde is noticeably weaker. Also, Healing Wish is by no means a reason to use it (I'd say Baton Pass is often just as if not more useful a fourth move).

Venusaur is better than ever, why would we unrank it? It's literally the only thing that can thwart the Sylv + Krook core and the only Fighting resist in the tier that has access to both active and passive recovery and that no Fighting-type carries coverage to hit super effectively. This is actually a extremely underrated threat. Also sun teams are cool :(

I've made this argument before where in past metas they were ranked either in the same rank or much like this one, one below the other. Slyveon existing doesn't immediately invalidate Florges, and you'd be silly to think that was the case. Florges is a much better wincon, and Sylveon is a better nuke. They don't play the same, thus the existence of one shouldn't influence the other's ranking.

The problem isn't even necessarily that Sylveon and Florges are stepping on each other's toes as far as roles go; it's that in a meta overprepared for Sylveon, Florges is necessarily going to be considerably worse at performing its job as a wincon. Sylveon has all the defensive utility Florges has while having more immediate power and ways to circumvent the checks the two share (Baton Pass). You're lying to yourself if you don't think Florges hasn't gotten considerably worse and that its niche hasn't shrunken significantly since Sylveon dropped. I'm well aware that "usage doesn't correlate with viability", but I think the exceedingly steep drop in usage Florges has experienced in both ladder and tour play more than speaks for itself.

 

[Thisbemyalt]

Why are we so intent on Florges dropping when it's still a good Pokemon? Omfuga isn't always right y'know... The Calm Mind set is (still) ridiculously good, and it's also a cleric. I don't mind being wrong about Sylveon, but dropping Florges to B+ is a knee-jerk reaction. Pokemon with similar roles can coexist in the same or in nearby rankings. Nidoking and Nidoqueen** anybody? Christ if you're going to keep Sylveon at A+, then Florges is definitely A- material. Teams that rely on Forretress, Tentacruel (or any other Steel- or Poison-type for that matter) still fold to CM Florges like deck chairs on a cruise ship. Sylveon has to pick and choose between roles, while Florges can sort of do them simultaneously.

Even just a simple eye-test of what exists in A- and what's in B+ can tell you Florges belongs in A-. Also why is doomer in B+ lmao.

**I've made this argument before where in past metas they were ranked either in the same rank or much like this one, one below the other. Slyveon existing doesn't immediately invalidate Florges, and you'd be silly to think that was the case. Florges is a much better wincon, and Sylveon is a better nuke. They don't play the same, thus the existence of one shouldn't influence the other's ranking.

In your post in the other VR thread and in your discussion with CSB last night I saw you consistently saying this "You need opposing Entei, Steel-types, and/or Poison-types removed before Sylveon reaches its potential. If you nab a Poison-type with Psyshock, you're now a free turn for a ton of threats in the metagame. The same goes for Shadow Ball and HP Fire." so if this was your logic as to why Sylveon isn't that great, why does that same logic not apply to Florges? It's almost like you take into account how hard people are prepping for fairies right now but only when the discussion is about Sylveon, when it's about Florges you somehow think that all that prep for Sylveon somehow doesn't make Florges worse. The main difference between the two is that Sylveon can weaken and kill its own checks, whereas Florges (CM) is practically useless against any team with 2 fairy checks. Also how does Sylveon being here not affect Florges? Even if you take out all the prep work being done for Sylveon you still would see that Florges would lose usage and viability. When was the last time you built with the godly dual fairy core Mazz? Logically speaking if I need a fairy on my team I only get one usually, and since offense is a clearly dominate style right now I will usually be much better off with running Sylveon. I don't necessarily support Florges to B+ but I'm so tired of this clear double standard people have when they say that Florges and Sylveon should be in the same rank or even that Sylveon doesn't affect Florges's viability.

 

[Mazz]

Sylveon - and I'm specifically talking about the Choice Specs set right now - is a better fit for offence. Sure, and as such I'd expect it to have some way of muscling past switch-ins. The whole point of being a nuke is to indiscriminately deal as much damage as possible. I don't control the fact that it can 3HKO Mega Aggron. This is the only reason Sylveon is ranked higher than Florges; the latter requires it's switchins severely weakened or removed before coming in, and the former is capable of doing that itself. If you sit down and think about it, neither Pokémon needs a ton of support. They're both effective at their individual roles once opposing Steel- or Poison-types are removed.

Teams that are effectively over-prepared for either Sylveon or Florges tend to have some glaring weaknesses to common partners such as Krookodile and Entei. Again, a solid partner does wonders for either Fairy-type. Outside of that, this argument devolves into predictions and mind-games. I just want it to be clear that supporting either of them isn't a massive burden, even in the state of today's meta game.

But, please do quit trying to equate CM Florges as an offensive threat akin to Sylveon. Florges fits on most Bulky Offence squads and primarily defensive teams (which aren't great right now but they aren't terrible by any means). My own personal experience has found Sylveon to be a better wallbreaker for HO-esque or VoltTurn teams. I keep insisting that Florges is a better wincon, and should be ranked as such. It's still a valuable option for those teams. If you wanna simply rank everything in the metagame based on how they perform strictly on specific styles of offensive teams, then be my guest. Don't expect me to take a thing you say seriously though. Florges is not a B+ Pokémon, end of point.

And Threw, it's not that I'm ignorant of how Florges has diminished in value over the past month to two months. It's that a lot of people assume that because it's pure cleric set is useless, the CM set must be too, simply because it's the same Pokémon.

And tbh I still equate a fair bit of the usage argument to "Shiny New Toy Syndrome", but won't ignore that playstyle effectiveness is a huge factor.

 

[bsu]

lmao at vaporeon in D rank

I was wondering why regular sharpedo is all the way down in C rank? If i recall, LO sharpedo is actually stronger than mega except for mega's crunch and i guess ice fang coverage
(calcs against a normal type shaymin just for the even stats idk)
252 Atk Strong Jaw Mega Sharpedo Crunch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Shaymin: 207-244 (60.7 - 71.5%)
252 Atk Life Orb Sharpedo Crunch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Shaymin: 161-191 (47.2 - 56%)
252 Atk Mega Sharpedo Waterfall vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Shaymin: 138-163 (40.4 - 47.8%)
252 Atk Life Orb Sharpedo Waterfall vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Shaymin: 161-191 (47.2 - 56%)

252+ Atk Strong Jaw Mega Sharpedo Crunch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Shaymin: 228-268 (66.8 - 78.5%)
252+ Atk Life Orb Sharpedo Crunch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Shaymin: 175-208 (51.3 - 60.9%)
252+ Atk Mega Sharpedo Waterfall vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Shaymin: 153-180 (44.8 - 52.7%)
252+ Atk Life Orb Sharpedo Waterfall vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Shaymin: 175-208 (51.3 - 60.9%)

edit: a more relevant calc
252+ Atk Mega Sharpedo Waterfall vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Cobalion: 123-145 (37.9 - 44.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Life Orb Sharpedo Waterfall vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Cobalion: 142-169 (43.8 - 52.1%) -- 2.3% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

with just a bit of chip damage LO sharpedo is 2KOing on the switch while mega needs a lot of chip

with all of the sylveons and cobalions running around sharpedo is gonna be clicking waterfall a fair amount and the damage difference can be pretty key in certain situations. I'm not saying regular sharpedo is better, just that its not drastically worse than mega. plus u free up the mega slot. I guess the bulk and LO recoil is pretty drastic, but its not like sharpedo is supposed to be taking hits
I guess i would think of it fitting in more in B-/B amongst things like jellicent, regular aero and qwilfish

 

[Schpoonman]

A big part of why Sharpedo is so much lower is because of how much lower its bulk is. I'm on mobile and strapped for time so I can't get any calcs right now, but there's a lot of stuff that either KOs Sharpedo outright or revenge it after a few turns of Life Orb recoil that just doesn't stop Mega Sharpedo. I know Entei's Extreme Speed almost completely invalidates it whereas Mega Sharpedo needs to be significantly weaker in order to be revenged. As far as I can tell that's actually the biggest difference and what REALLY makes Mega Shark more dangerous.

 

[Manipulative]

I think moving Florges down to the bottom of A- was harsh as is. I supported it dropping a subrank in the previous thread because it wasn't said that Sylveon was rising any further, so they would only be a subrank apart. I'm fine with Sylveon being A+ but think Florges should've kept its spot at A in that case. It surely still has a place in this tier with its CM set and I feel like dropping it down by a full rank within 2 months would be in some way saying that it doesn't. Sylveon and Florges being a full rank apart doesn't feel right either. I honestly can't picture Florges not being good enough to stay within the A section anyways, don't drop it further than it already has.

 

[Villa]

My only point with florges is that there are now very few teams that don't have a really good answer to fairy types. In the meta without sylveon, something to deal with fairies was always important but not quite on the same level as it is now. Sylveon has the raw power to blow back so many different teams that i wouldn't use most of my teams from the non-conk/celebi/sylv meta because my fairy resist was either doublade or entei which just aren't significant enough anymore. This has been really unkind to Florges as now the popularity of fairy resists that can beat both sylveon and florges has increased tenfold.
However, I feel it still has a role to play that would suit A-, but looking at the top of B+ with things like crobat and lucario it doesn't seem out of place there. Im not sure whether that's because Crobat should rise to A- (that's something that could be discussed at a later stage) or florges should be B+.

 

[dingbat]

Captain dodmen has righted the 4th Viability Ranking ship for 8 months and 5 days before sinking, striking down the 6 month record set by the mighty Limitless, and today, Captain r0ady has embarked on his own mission on the 5th Viability Ranking Ship. Will he emerge out of the 6th Generation Sea on a victorious note, or will he succumb to the pressures of the storms of subjection and bullshit? Stay tuned to this thread and find out!

 

[Ununhexium]

Captain dodmen has righted the 4th Viability Ranking ship for 8 months and 5 days before sinking, striking down the 6 month record set by the mighty Limitless, and today, Captain r0ady has embarked on his own mission on the 5th Viability Ranking Ship. Will he emerge out of the 6th Generation Sea on a victorious note, or will he succumb to the pressures of the storms of subjection and bullshit? Stay tuned to this thread and find out!

Nominations and comments to come soon.

I called this one in the last thread I could've shattered the record

Except I suck at Pokemon

 

[dingbat]

Regarding flimsy Sharpedo, I definitely agree that its paper thin bulk really prevents it from being anywhere as good of a cleaner + wallbreaker as its Mega counterpart is, but there's a little more to that. Yes, a LO waterfall/any non-biting move from flimsy shark is stronger than those same moves from Mega Shark, but the main issue with that argument is that Waterfall is nowhere near as spammable as Crunch. The only instance I can really think of where a stronger Waterfall would be useful is against stuff like Krook, Arcanine, and Entei, as Entei can sometimes survive an Adamant Waterfall from mega Shark at full hp, but regular shark melts to Extremespeed and the other two are not ohko'd at full health still. In addition, Crunch by Mega Shark is always going to do more damage in general than any move flimsy shark can pull off. Thus flimsy shark is correctly placed in C rank, as it is very nearly outclassed by its mega.

Any idea why Seismitoad is still in C+? I really don't believe that Knock Off + Water Absorb justifies using this over Mega/non mega Swampert because these niches are so damn obscure nowadays that even the top echelon of UU battlers have completely ignored it and opted to just slap Swamp and call it a day. Also rain team certainly isn't an argument, because it can barely fit on one nowadays, and shit like Kabutops that rely completely on rain aren't even ranked here, either.

I can see Florges dropping to B+ rank soon; I think that it being a better win con than Sylveon isn't really a great justification towards keeping Florges in A-, now that we are really seeing the ripple effect that Sylveon has caused against Florges. The effect of teams preparing more for Sylveon and this current brand of UU offense in general only continues to hurt Florges' viability more.

 

[Highways]

I don't agree with Florges dropping, I think that A- is enough.

Now, one controversial nomination:

from A+ to S Rank: So, I was thinking to do this nomination in the past VR, anyway, Celebi is one of the most defining Pokémon in the tier without a doubt. First of all, I'll start showing the S Rank definition of RU, because in this thread, it's description is just "the best of the best", and I still think that it is a small characterization of what is the S Rank.

The best of the best. Reserved for Pokemon who shape and define the RU metagame and are a clear-cut above the rest of the tier. These Pokemon are typically very powerful offensive threats that are difficult to prepare for and/or are phenomenal support and defensive threats that provide significant utility or defensive potential, respectively. Also the home of Pokemon who can easily perform multiple roles effectively, increasing their versatility and unpredictability. If the Pokemon in this rank have any flaws, those flaws are thoroughly mitigated by their substantial strengths.

The best of the best, again... Anyway, Celebi is a meta-defining Pokémon, mostly because it has unpredictable sets, a godlike Movepool, has a scary offensive potential and a huge defensive potential too. It can easily perform multiple roles effectively, like setup Stealth Rock, stallbreak, wallbreak, wall a significant portion of the tier, and pivot most of Offensive and Defensive Pokémon with relative ease. It's flaws are plainly mitigated by it's substantial strengths.

Looking at the true definition of S Rank, I think that Celebi can be easily fitted on it and I'll explain the why.

I have one word to describe Celebi: Unpredictability. Actually, you can just slap Celebi in every kind of team in every kind of Playstyle, this is because it has a ton of sets. It has, easily, more than 10 viable sets, like Offensive Stealth Rock, NP + 3 Attacks, NP + Recover, CM + Recover, SD + 3 Attacks, NP Pass, SD Pass, Defensive Utility, Choice Scarf. Well, I listed 9 Sets, but the Utility Set has a ton of variants, anyway, Celebi is the best Scald Switch'in in the tier, a very nice Fighting-Resist and a cool Ground-Resist, not to mention that it's typing acts surprisingly well offensively. All it's faster Offensive Checks are 2HKOed/OHKOed by it after Stealth Rocks, like Aerodactyl-Mega, Crobat, Infernape and Beedrill-Mega. Yeah, you just can't find switch'ins, Defensive and Offensive Steel-Types like Aggron-Mega, Escavalier and Bronzong can't do too much after one NP since Celebi has Earth Power and Hidden Power Fire, Cresselia is always a setup fodder to Swords Dance sets if it is lacking Signal Beam.

In therms of matchup versus some playstyles, Celebi wrecks Stall by using stuff like Blissey as setup fodders, also, it isn't affected by Status too much because of it's cool Ability called Natural Cure, so Toxic, Thunder Wave and Will-O-Wisp are, most of times, ineffective versus Celebi. Versus Balance, Celebi can just laugh in front of stuff like Swampert(-Mega), Tentacruel, Forretress and Suicune, using them as setup fodders, Florges is defeated by SD Sets too. Versus Offense, Celebi has an interesting matchup, since most of Pokémon are slower than it, but are still fat, what means that they can't be defeated by one unboosted STAB, but most of time, Celebi can eat an entire team after one Nasty Plot/Swords Dance, stuff like Hydreigon, Doublade and Cobalion are defeated by coverage moves. Versus HO, meh, it can hand some Pokémon like Lucario and Toxicroak with STAB Moves, but it's only role vs. HO is kill/resist Fighting-Types. Semi Stall teams can't even touch Celebi if at +2 SpA, only Aerodactyl-Mega can do some troubles, but it can't even OHKO 0 HP / 0 Def Celebi... Celebi matchups very well against basically every single playstyle. It's just like Hydreigon and Suicune in therms of splashability and favorable matchups.

I'm tired and my English is too limited to explain more, but yeah, Celebi is, for sure, S Rank potential.

I have a minor nom too:

from B+ to A-, again: Crobat is fearsome for teams that doesn't have a Flying-Resist. It's Sky Plate Set is amazing, it can hit everything very hard and OHKO most of the frail Pokémon, not to mention that it has a huge Speed Stat and a good typing that allows it to resist attacks from Poison-, Fairy- and Grass-Types. It's Defensive set is cool too, but it is worse than it's offensive one. It's a viable Pivot, a good answer to every single Fast and Frail Pokémon and a Balance Breaker, I think that it deserve a rise to A-.

 

[Hilomilo]

I'd like to go ahead and nominate Umbreon to go from B to B-. As much as I hate to say it, this thing is really struggling right now. It fails to function as an effective special wall due to the extreme prevalence of specs Sylveon, which takes two turns at most to KO Umbreon with hyper voice. Without the rare toxic, Umbreon can't really do anything to fight back. Alongside Sylveon, there are many other common pokemon that can easily threaten Umbreon, such as Cobalion and Conkeldurr. As far as being a wish passer goes, Umbreon is outclassed by it's already mentioned fairy type sibling in Sylveon, which alongside effectively supporting a team with wish, can apply offensive pressure with pixilate boosted hyper voice and a fair special attack stat to work off of. Umbreon, on the other hand, only has an easy move to work around in foul play and an abysmal 65 attack stat to use to apply offensive pressure whilst also wish passing (though the better defense can come in to play SOMETIMES). Because of this, it is also a LOT easier for set up sweepers such as Infernape and Gyarados to begin accumulating stat boosts in a matchup against Umbreon rather than Sylv. Overall, Umbreon is just extremely passive and has been effected for the worse with the recent drops in Sylveon, Conkeldurr, and even Celebi (to a far lesser extent), and can't function in its respective roles as reliably as it once used to be able to. It's definitely worse as a special wall, wish passer, AND user of heal bell compared to Blissey, who it shares a viability ranking with, and for all these reasons definitely warrants a drop.

As far as the current discussion slate goes, I definitely can understand the drops of Gardevoir and Florges, but haven't used Venusaur in this tier to be of fair judgment for its ranking. Crobat is a similar case to Venusaur's, but I can definitely agree with Celebi rising to S at some point, as you have absolutely no way of knowing what it's got coming for you since the thing has SO many really great and metagame-defining sets right now, and is able to take on any relevant play style in UU with ease.

 

[Schpoonman]

Nah, you pretty much nailed it. I'm seeing a shitton of people clamoring for a Celebi test, and given that it really does fit on every single team archetype and is one of the best Pokemon in the tier in literally every single one of its roles (THE best Scald absorber, top 3 best Nasty Plotters, THE best Baton Passer, etc), it is the textbook definition of S.

EDIT: You mentioned Umbreon's base 65 Attack, but that doesn't actually ever come into play. Foul Play uses your opponent's attack stat, so whether it was 1 or 255 it's irrelevant to Umbreon's performance.

 

[CriptoniteJet]

Nah, you pretty much nailed it. I'm seeing a shitton of people clamoring for a Celebi test, and given that it really does fit on every single team archetype and is one of the best Pokemon in the tier in literally every single one of its roles (THE best Scald absorber, top 3 best Nasty Plotters, THE best Baton Passer, etc), it is the textbook definition of S.

EDIT: You mentioned Umbreon's base 65 Attack, but that doesn't actually ever come into play. Foul Play uses your opponent's attack stat, so whether it was 1 or 255 it's irrelevant to Umbreon's performance.

The only reason I wish it wouldn't get S (not that it doesn't deserve it) is then it probably would get tested.. But at the same time I doubt even if it got tested it would get banned.. There's nothing really broken about it. Like you said it's splashable, there's another S rank mon I can think of that's also splashable... Just my thoughts.

Edit: Then I realized people don't like their suicunes getting stomped, so that's a thing too a_a

 

[ryan]

Nidoking probably afford to go up to somewhere in A rank. It has no troubles running through the common defensive cores with Sylveon, Tentacruel, Empoleon, etc. finding their way onto a lot of balanced teams. It also fits perfectly onto Sticky Web offense trans which make up a large chunk the metagame. Sylveon being everywhere makes it absurdly easy to bring it in a long of the time, and once it is in, it rarely leaves without getting a kill.

 

[Hilomilo]

EDIT: You mentioned Umbreon's base 65 Attack, but that doesn't actually ever come into play. Foul Play uses your opponent's attack stat, so whether it was 1 or 255 it's irrelevant to Umbreon's performance.

Oh, well I guess I'm wrong there XD But regardless, Umbreon's foul play isn't nearly as reliable againt the likes of extremely common pokemon such as Hydreigon, Sylveon, and NP Infernape as Blissey's seismic toss is, and I'm sure it isn't even necessary to compare calcs of the two taking neutral special hits, given that Blissey's been established many times as a better special wall than Umbreon. That being said, they should no longer share a rank, and Umbreon needs to drop to B-.

 

[dodmen]

Florges shouldn't drop further than A-. It's a better fit than cleric Sylveon for most balance teams as it can check threatening special attackers - Kyurem, Mega Blastoise, Mega Sceptile - better, and a switchin to these is desperately needed to partner with other common balance Pokemon such as Suicune, Salamence, and Krookodile.

252 SpA Choice Specs Kyurem Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Florges: 151-178 (41.9 - 49.4%) -- 25.8% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Mega Blastoise Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Florges: 139-165 (38.6 - 45.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Mega Sceptile Leaf Storm vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Florges: 159-187 (44.1 - 51.9%)

252 SpA Choice Specs Kyurem Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Sylveon: 175-207 (44.4 - 52.5%) -- 80.9% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Mega Blastoise Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Sylveon: 162-192 (41.1 - 48.7%) -- 13.3% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Mega Sceptile Leaf Storm vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Sylveon: 184-217 (46.7 - 55%)

Sylveon is forced to Protect against Kyurem to avoid the 2HKO and forced to Wish up against the latter two attackers, whereas Florges can obviously recover off the damage in one turn. Also a Scald burn from Blastoise is pretty devastating for Sylveon, not as much so for Florges. Just cause the tier is now "more prepared" for Fairies, doesn't mean Florges still can't do its job well; I mean even if it is harder to pull off a CM sweep (which is already reflected by the fact that Florges already dropped 2 sub ranks), its primary role is still checking the things it was always checking.

In general obviously Sylveon is better than Florges offensively, but Florges' ability to check dangerous special attackers like these ones means it still deserves A-. Also, Wish Synth Florges is still a more reliable Wish passer than Sylveon.

Nidoking shouldn't go to A-, the extra Speed it has over Nidoqueen only helps against unboosted Gyarados and non-Scarf Chandelure, and to a small extent Mamoswine. Nidoqueen's extra defensive utility is so much more worth it, letting it survive 2 Mienshao HJKs, LO Draco from Salamence, EQ from Mega Aero, Leaf Storm from Mega Sceptile, and so many more relevant attacks (all of these are with minimal HP investment, meaning you're still fast enough to outspeed neutral Mega Swampert, Tyrantrum, Metagross, non-max Speed Mega Blastoise, and other things hovering around the base 70 Speed tier). The fact that it can't be OHKOd by these kinds of things makes it truly hard for it to leave without a kill compared to Nidoking. By the way, Taunt on Nidoqueen is a really cool 4th moveslot if you're running SR on something else, keeps Milo Cress Suicune and P2 low all in one move slot - good for partners like Aero and scarfers (good on Nidoking too though that's usually running a 4th attack).

 

[reachzero]

Celebi is absolutely deserving of S-Rank, both in terms of the top-end power of its best set (Nasty Plot three attacks) and in terms of its sheer number and variety of sets. I have also used Stealth Rock two attacks Celebi, Thunder Wave two attacks Celebi, Scarf Celebi and Weakness Policy Baton Pass Celebi, and all of them are no less than A in viability. I haven't (and wouldn't) used Swords Dance three attacks Celebi, which I see as less effective than the other sets, but it is hard to distinguish from Weakness Policy until it attacks, and it completely punishes the stuff that comes in to block the Baton Pass set (like offensive Crobat). Every team style can and should use Celebi, and it's top-end sweeping power is no less than top-top offensive threats like Salamence and Hydreigon. As a case in point, almost any Pokemon you switch into Celebi first could not only be a bad choice, but could be catastrophic if Celebi hits your Crobat with Psychic, or paralyzes your Metagross, or Baton Passes a Sword Dance in the face of your Escavalier. This is essentially the definition of an S-Rank Pokémon; it must be prepared for specifically, and it is still remarkably effective even against teams that are specifically prepared.

 

[palkia246]

I'm new to forums and smogon in general, so don't be surprised if this post has notable flaws
So there's a lot of discussion on a lot of different mons and their ranks, so here are my personal thoughts on them, feel like that's an okay way to begin my forum presence.
Florges to B+: On the fence I was at first all for Florges to drop, since Sylveon checks are everywhere now and certainly don't benefit poor Florges, which is already struggling to compete with Sylveon. However, Dodmen really hit the nail on the head with why it could stay in A-, as it's a more reliable check to stuff like mega Blastoise and kyurem and other powerful special attackers.
Venusaur unranked, Gardevoir to B: Agreed Not much discussion on either of these, but I don't really know why Venusaur was ranked to begin with, and Gardevoir's low bulk and speed make it way less reliable than it once was as a team sweeper.
Celebi to S: Agreed It literally has SOOOOOOO many viable sets to work with, and is becoming more and more unpredictable with every new set we're seeing, be it SD/NP and baton pass, or NP + 3 attacks, or even lead with SR and thunder wave. More on par with Suicune and Hydreigon at this point than Krookodile and Gyarados.
Umbreon to B-: Agreed When compared to other wish passers, Sylveon can apply better offensive pressure with hyper voice, when all Umbreon has is an easy move to take advantage of in Foul Play, and Blissey's a better special wall with just 4 spdef investment and can piss bigger wishes and, as ridiculous as it sounds, come closer to a KO than Umbreon with frickin SEISMIC TOSS. No longer a reliable option due to poor type match up against many of the tier's biggest threats and can be taken advantage of by special attackers easier than Blissey.
I hope I made mostly good points XD but thanks for reading and I hope to see some more discussion on these noms!

 

[Sugarbear]

I would like to make a nomination: Moltres to C+ / B-

It boasts decent Speed which lets it outrun the plethora of base 80-85s, excellent Special Attack and great offensive typing. Rotom-H and Aerodactyl are the only common Pokémon in UU that resist its STABs, and the latter hates Will-O-Wisp so even it can't switch in. It also has good bulk and surprisingly good defensive typing which gives it useful Grass, Bug, Fighting, Fairy and Fire resistances with a Ground immunity. Yes it hates Stealth Rock with a passion, but so does Entei. It can also run a good Agility set to clean late game, and I've seen people running surprisingly good defensive sets (not that I'd recommend that mind you).