OU Theorymon (Check Post #173)

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Bendiving said:
I said check, not counter (as in, beats one-on-one). Obviously Azelf won't be switching in to steels, but most steels don't want to switch in either, which is a problem if your fairy checks are steel types and/or Venu as it means Azelf can pretty much get a kill every time it come in if played right. Heatran and Empoleon have no recovery so can't switch in multiple times.

But ok, point taken, I hadn't gone through every calc and it doesn't fare as well against some steels as I thought :]
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The standard definition of a check is something that can switch in on some moves (but not others), or on any move but only one or a few times; a counter is something that can switch in repeatedly on any of a set's moves. By these definitions, Azelf does check many Steel-types by coming in on a utility or non-Steel-type move, but its low bulk means that it really doesn't enjoy the prospect. I wouldn't rely on it to perform that role against defensive teams, and it requires prediction.

I guess my point, which I should have been clearer about, is that Azelf can check most Steel-types, but it is not reliable in that respect, and I would not consider that one of its niches.

We seem to agree that it's useful in its ability to blow past Steel-type switch-ins, at least. Do note that HP Fire+Earth Power Mega Diancie is also capable of this, albeit using a mega slot and really missing Protect.
 
Bendiving said:
...and bypass sturdy (Skarm, Donphan), thick fat (M-venu, hopefully Gogoat soon?!), unaware (Clef, Quag), oblivious (Mamo), filter (M-Aggron), multiscale (Dragonite, Milotic)... Still don't think it's broken but it's better than you're making out.

Also checking heatran is p huge as it makes it a fairy that can check all steel types + M-Venu in one slot.
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Skarmory isn't really that relevant in this meta because of things like Entei, MegaRupt and Moltres free switches, and you aren't OHKOing Donphan so being able to bypass its sturdy with mold breaker is useless.
252 SpA Life Orb Azelf Dazzling Gleam vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Donphan: 251-296 (78.1 - 92.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO. <- And most Donphan run bulk iirc.
Mega Venu I'll give you, even though I haven't really seen one whenever I played.
Clefable isn't super relevant either as it can't really check the most common Dragon type in Kyurem, and you 2HKO Quagsire either way with D-Gleam.
Oblivious Mamoswine is a bad set that got overhyped in XY and doesn't do anything in ORAS.
What exactly is Azelf using that allows it to break through M-Aggron's Filter? Steel/Dragon means its neutral to Fire Blast.
Milotic I would say is pretty bad, as Isa Simple stated in a previous post, but Dragonite I would say is a fair argument, even though hazards aren't that hard to get up and keep up.
 
UPDATE:

These two specimens have been added to the archive and await discussion on their initial rankings. The Immortal

sceptile.gif
+ Seed Flare
gogoat.gif
+ Thick Fat


Based off of the discussion the initial placements for Zoroark, Jolteon and Cobalion will be:
571.png
-> B+
135.png
-> C+
638.png
-> B+

Also we still wanna wait for the tour to show off the meta a bit more before we start doing major updates but may as well move Venusaur and Victreebel in there because Sun is indeed a thing now. Also moving Raikou down substantially.

003.png
-> B
071.png
-> C+
243.png
-> B-

And lastly the new slate will be displayed in the OP, feel free to discuss their possible influence on the meta.

EDIT: The first thing jumping to my mind regarding the current slate is that Flash Fire Gourgeist gives us a fantastic check to Mega Camerupt. Though I'm not sure if Gourgeist can actually kill Camerupt so if Camel has Growth it could be an issue.
 
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254-mega.png
-> B+
In normal OU, Mega Sceptile's problem was lacking a super strong STAB that would convince you to run it over other megas, however now with Seed Flare, not only is it not forced out every time it uses its main Grass STAB, Seed Flare's secondary effect also can let it beat some of its counters. For example, Mega Altaria is usually a counter to Mega Sceptile, however if it gets the drop..

252 SpA Mega Sceptile Seed Flare vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Mega Altaria: 102-120 (28.8 - 33.8%) -- 99.7% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Mega Sceptile Seed Flare vs. -2 252 HP / 0 SpD Mega Altaria: 204-240 (57.6 - 67.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

Total Damage: 86.4 - 101.5%
If SR are up, Mega Altaria is dead. Same applies for other usual switch-ins like Klefki, Mega Venusaur, and Mega Scizor. I'd say this is enough to move it up to B+.

gogoat.png
-> B-?
Not too sure on Gogoat, sure, while Thick Fat is nice vs. Electric types, it's not like answers to those is uncommon in the Theorymon meta. It still can't take STAB Fire or Ice moves, for example:
252 Atk Life Orb Weavile Icicle Crash vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Thick Fat Gogoat: 252-299 (56 - 66.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Kyurem Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Thick Fat Gogoat: 205-244 (45.5 - 54.2%) -- 97.3% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

252+ Atk Choice Band Entei Sacred Fire vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Thick Fat Gogoat: 366-432 (81.3 - 96%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ SpA Sheer Force Mega Camerupt Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Thick Fat Gogoat in Harsh Sunshine: 344-408 (76.4 - 90.6%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

And while it can set-up vs. non-STAB Fire and Ice coverage, Grass typing offensively is actually pretty bad, forcing it to run a secondary attacking move like Earthquake or Rock Slide, really limiting its moveset potential. I would say B-, but no higher than that.
 
Froggyboy said:
254-mega.png
-> B+
In normal OU, Mega Sceptile's problem was lacking a super strong STAB that would convince you to run it over other megas, however now with Seed Flare, not only is it not forced out every time it uses its main Grass STAB, Seed Flare's secondary effect also can let it beat some of its counters. For example, Mega Altaria is usually a counter to Mega Sceptile, however if it gets the drop..

252 SpA Mega Sceptile Seed Flare vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Mega Altaria: 102-120 (28.8 - 33.8%) -- 99.7% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Mega Sceptile Seed Flare vs. -2 252 HP / 0 SpD Mega Altaria: 204-240 (57.6 - 67.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

Total Damage: 86.4 - 101.5%
If SR are up, Mega Altaria is dead. Same applies for other usual switch-ins like Klefki, Mega Venusaur, and Mega Scizor. I'd say this is enough to move it up to B+.

gogoat.png
-> B-?
Not too sure on Gogoat, sure, while Thick Fat is nice vs. Electric types, it's not like answers to those is uncommon in the Theorymon meta. It still can't take STAB Fire or Ice moves, for example:
252 Atk Life Orb Weavile Icicle Crash vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Thick Fat Gogoat: 252-299 (56 - 66.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Kyurem Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Thick Fat Gogoat: 205-244 (45.5 - 54.2%) -- 97.3% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

252+ Atk Choice Band Entei Sacred Fire vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Thick Fat Gogoat: 366-432 (81.3 - 96%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ SpA Sheer Force Mega Camerupt Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Thick Fat Gogoat in Harsh Sunshine: 344-408 (76.4 - 90.6%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

And while it can set-up vs. non-STAB Fire and Ice coverage, Grass typing offensively is actually pretty bad, forcing it to run a secondary attacking move like Earthquake or Rock Slide, really limiting its moveset potential. I would say B-, but no higher than that.
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Sheer Force in Harsh Sunshine lol. Nonetheless I agree with this post and I'm pretty sure it still 2HKOs (via mental calculation a min roll would be ~57.3%). One thing I want to talk about tho is Jolteon. I feel like people are just looking at its value individually but it's so much better as a part of a core. When combined with Entei, it can set spikes to aid in killing stuff or bait out the Defog, easily handle the bulky Water types that check Entei, and threaten some of the Dragons with HP Ice or Shadow Ball (for Latis). I would personally give it B Rank and this seems like an amazing core that I can't wait to try out.
 
Some opinions:

Gogoat: from unranked to C rank (initial placement).
Gogoat is a pure Grass type with 3 residual weaknesses (Fire and Ice are now neutral which, sadly, is not much more with that base Def) and is weak to all status including burn (sadly Thick Fat doesn't help in this direction) thus making it unable to have another STAB move and all us know that there are plenty of Grass resists. It has nice coverage options both physical (i.e. Earthquake, Rock Slide) and special (Surf) but 68 base speed with base 62 Def don't help. In my eyes this pokemon is outclassed ==> C rank seems a good initial placement.

Celebi: drop it from A- to B+
Celebi has a nice movepool including nice status moves but with attacks spotting middling base power with unfocused stats all around and, in particular, with many weaknesses that makes it a liability if you mispredict even once time even though your opponent is not prepared specifically to deal with Celebi.

Swampert (Mega) drop it from B+ to B-
In my eyes this is a "luxury" Mega because in a rain team you want some Megas (1) able to deal with opposite weather setters and/or (2) not stack the same weaknesses over and over. It is really a bulky pokemon but Mega Pinsir/Pidgeot/Heracross and so on are more useful because they can work effectively outside the Rain and provide utility getting rid of some annoying monster more easily than M-Swampert (the same happens in regular OU).

Manaphy: rise it from A+ to S rank.
The huge drop of Raikou leaves only Manectric and Thundurus as the only Electric-type pokemons in the entire A rank from A+ to A- leaving almost only pokemon with non-STAB Electric coverage and the new Fire-types monsters are obliterated by a +3 Scald so I think that Manaphy is now as strong as it is in regular OU not to mention its ability to 2HKO Drought Torterra without set-up and get rid of Sun. Due to metagame trends with the drop of many Electrics I think that Manaphy can do really well.
 
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So I got bored and I started messing up with some calcs figuring Gourgeist-XL. After some time, I found it's able to wall most of the Fire-type mons/mons using Fire-type coverage:


252 SpA Mega Charizard Y Solar Beam vs. 252 HP / 96 SpD Gourgeist-Super: 85-101 (22.7 - 27%) -- possible 5HKO after Leftovers recovery (use Air Slash imo)

252 SpA Heatran Flash Cannon vs. 252 HP / 96 SpD Gourgeist-Super: 147-174 (39.3 - 46.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery (defensive variants completely shut it down though...)

+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Entei Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 160+ Def Gourgeist-Super: 191-226 (51 - 60.4%) -- 90.2% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
(Leftovers + Leech Seed makes it healthy enough to not be 2HKOed)

252 SpA Mega Manectric Hidden Power Ice vs. 252 HP / 96 SpD Gourgeist-Super: 152-180 (40.6 - 48.1%) -- 5.9% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery (Mystical Fire says hi)

252+ Atk Choice Band Victini Zen Headbutt vs. 252 HP / 160+ Def Gourgeist-Super: 120-142 (32 - 37.9%) -- 94.6% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery (uuuuuuhhhhh... did we actually find a perfect CB Victini counter? O_O)

252+ SpA Expert Belt Victini Glaciate vs. 252 HP / 96 SpD Gourgeist-Super: 175-209 (46.7 - 55.8%) -- 99.6% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
-1 252+ SpA Expert Belt Victini Glaciate vs. 252 HP / 96 SpD Gourgeist-Super: 118-139 (31.5 - 37.1%) -- 79.7% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery (if Mystical Fire is used right after the first Glaciate, Gourgeist-XL avoids the 2HKO)


Edit: I almost forgot M-Camerupt!
252+ SpA Mega Camerupt Hidden Power Ice vs. 252 HP / 96 SpD Gourgeist-Super: 176-208 (47 - 55.6%) -- 14.8% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
(but who would seriously use that? I mean, a neutral Fire Blast deals more damage than a x4 effective HP Ice lol)

Realistic calc:
252+ SpA Mega Camerupt Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 96 SpD Gourgeist-Super: 98-116 (26.2 - 31%) -- 8% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
(Mystical Fire also does its thing here)


While those are somewhat impressive calcs, Gourgeist-XL can fare even better against other Fire-type mons like MegaZard-X, Volcarona and other sweepers in general by using Toxic instead of Will-O-Wisp (but on the other hand, since most Fire-type mons aren't able to deal enough damage to Gourgeist-XL, this means they won't have any business switching into it in the first place to absorb the burn).

Too tired to talk about the others for now X-( I'll try to do so later this week.
 
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GnralLao said:
So I got bored and I started messing up with some calcs figuring Gourgeist-XL. After some time, I found it's able to wall most of the Fire-type mons/mons using Fire-type coverage:


252 SpA Mega Charizard Y Solar Beam vs. 252 HP / 96 SpD Gourgeist-Super: 85-101 (22.7 - 27%) -- possible 5HKO after Leftovers recovery (use Air Slash imo)

252 SpA Heatran Flash Cannon vs. 252 HP / 96 SpD Gourgeist-Super: 147-174 (39.3 - 46.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery (defensive variants completely shut it down though...)

+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Entei Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 160+ Def Gourgeist-Super: 191-226 (51 - 60.4%) -- 90.2% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
(Leftovers + Leech Seed makes it healthy enough to not be 2HKOed)

252 SpA Mega Manectric Hidden Power Ice vs. 252 HP / 96 SpD Gourgeist-Super: 152-180 (40.6 - 48.1%) -- 5.9% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery (Mystical Fire says hi)

252+ Atk Choice Band Victini Zen Headbutt vs. 252 HP / 160+ Def Gourgeist-Super: 120-142 (32 - 37.9%) -- 94.6% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery (uuuuuuhhhhh... did we actually find a perfect CB Victini counter? O_O)

252+ SpA Expert Belt Victini Glaciate vs. 252 HP / 96 SpD Gourgeist-Super: 175-209 (46.7 - 55.8%) -- 99.6% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
-1 252+ SpA Expert Belt Victini Glaciate vs. 252 HP / 96 SpD Gourgeist-Super: 118-139 (31.5 - 37.1%) -- 79.7% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery (if Mystical Fire is used right after the first Glaciate, Gourgeist-XL avoids the 2HKO)


While those are somewhat impressive calcs, Gourgeist-XL can fare even better against other Fire-type mons like MegaZard-X, Volcarona and other sweepers in general by using Toxic instead of Will-O-Wisp (but on the other hand, since most Fire-type mons aren't able to deal enough damage to Gourgeist-XL, this means they won't have any business switching into it in the first place to absorb the burn).

Too tired to talk about the others for now X-( I'll try to do so later this week.
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Okay, for real: Why are people taking Mystical Fire seriously as an option for Gourgeist? It already wants to run Synthesis, Will-O-Wisp, Leech Seed, Seed Bomb, and Rock Slide. Where is Mystical Fire gonna go? Synthesis is out of the question. Losing Will-O-Wisp means you can't deal out lasting punishment in the form of a burn, IMO a huge utility loss. Without Seed Bomb, Gourgeist can't hit Water/Rock/Ground-types; without Rock Slide, it can't threaten the Fire-types that it's supposed to check. Even if you ditch Leech Seed (IMO the least mandatory move on Gourgeist-XL), you're still losing another important move for dubious utility.

Yeah, it can let you tank Special attackers, but literally every usable Pokemon in the game (save for Wobbuffet) already learns Confide, which is the exact same thing without chip damage. Gourgeist has never had any good reason to use Confide, because it does not give any lasting penalty to Pokemon that switch into it or switch out of it. Given the pitiful chip damage that Mystical Fire does (and the fact that Gourgeist is fucking awful when taunted anyways), Mystical Fire barely counts as an upgrade.

You know what Gourgeist's best way of handling special attackers is? Switching out to something specially defensive, not trying to be everything when it clearly can't.
 
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Alright, so starting tomorrow, an event will unable Zoroark to learn Sludge Bomb to nail Fairy-types O_O (source: Serebii).

How will this move affect Zoroark's viability? Sure it'll be hard at times to find a spot for it since it'll generally either have Nasty Plot | Dark Pulse | Vacuum Wave | Focus Blast/Flamethrower/Taunt/U-turn or a more physical variant, but after a Nasty Plot boost, it does a number on Fairy-types (and that number is two):


+2 252 SpA Life Orb Zoroark Sludge Bomb vs. 252 HP / 84+ SpD Clefable: 439-517 (111.4 - 131.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO

+2 252 SpA Life Orb Zoroark Sludge Bomb vs. 248 HP / 156 SpD Mega Altaria: 398-471 (112.7 - 133.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO

+2 252 SpA Life Orb Zoroark Sludge Bomb vs. 240 HP / 16 SpD Assault Vest Azumarill: 380-447 (94.7 - 111.4%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO (guaranteed OHKO after SR) (Aqua Jet does about half though)

+2 252 SpA Life Orb Zoroark Sludge Bomb vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mega Gardevoir: 372-439 (134.2 - 158.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO

+2 252 SpA Life Orb Zoroark Sludge Bomb vs. 252 HP / 36 SpD Sylveon: 374-442 (94.9 - 112.1%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO (guaranteed OHKO after SR)

+2 252 SpA Life Orb Zoroark Sludge Bomb vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Granbull: 473-559 (123.1 - 145.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO (certainly not the best spread for Granbull, but it's just to show that Granbull is screwed against it now (it doesn't even need a boost to OHKO against the fully physically defensive spread))

+2 252 SpA Life Orb Zoroark Sludge Bomb vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Mega Audino: 395-465 (96.3 - 113.4%) -- 75% chance to OHKO (guaranteed OHKO after SR)

+2 252 SpA Life Orb Zoroark Sludge Bomb vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Donphan: 364-429 (113.3 - 133.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO (prior damage or poison on the hit are needed to actually OHKO Donphan due to Sturdy)


Thoughts?
 
GnralLao said:
Alright, so starting tomorrow, an event will unable Zoroark to learn Sludge Bomb to nail Fairy-types O_O (source: Serebii).

How will this move affect Zoroark's viability? Sure it'll be hard at times to find a spot for it since it'll generally either have Nasty Plot | Dark Pulse | Vacuum Wave | Focus Blast/Flamethrower/Taunt/U-turn or a more physical variant, but after a Nasty Plot boost, it does a number on Fairy-types (and that number is two):


+2 252 SpA Life Orb Zoroark Sludge Bomb vs. 252 HP / 84+ SpD Clefable: 439-517 (111.4 - 131.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO

+2 252 SpA Life Orb Zoroark Sludge Bomb vs. 248 HP / 156 SpD Mega Altaria: 398-471 (112.7 - 133.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO

+2 252 SpA Life Orb Zoroark Sludge Bomb vs. 240 HP / 16 SpD Assault Vest Azumarill: 380-447 (94.7 - 111.4%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO (guaranteed OHKO after SR) (Aqua Jet does about half though)

+2 252 SpA Life Orb Zoroark Sludge Bomb vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mega Gardevoir: 372-439 (134.2 - 158.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO

+2 252 SpA Life Orb Zoroark Sludge Bomb vs. 252 HP / 36 SpD Sylveon: 374-442 (94.9 - 112.1%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO (guaranteed OHKO after SR)

+2 252 SpA Life Orb Zoroark Sludge Bomb vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Granbull: 473-559 (123.1 - 145.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO (certainly not the best spread for Granbull, but it's just to show that Granbull is screwed against it now (it doesn't even need a boost to OHKO against the fully physically defensive spread))

+2 252 SpA Life Orb Zoroark Sludge Bomb vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Mega Audino: 395-465 (96.3 - 113.4%) -- 75% chance to OHKO (guaranteed OHKO after SR)

+2 252 SpA Life Orb Zoroark Sludge Bomb vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Donphan: 364-429 (113.3 - 133.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO (prior damage or poison on the hit are needed to actually OHKO Donphan due to Sturdy)


Thoughts?
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Hoopa's shown that Dark/Poison is really sexy coverage, and I can see it dropping Focus Blast for it - it loses the 70% chance of demolishing the Blob at +2, but anything that resists Dark/Poison is weak to Vacuum Wave anyway. I'm liking it a lot to be honest, and it makes it really really difficult to switch in. Or you could just go four attacks, but I'm not sure it's strong enough.
 
isa simple, sun isnt a thing just because torterra is good. its not. dont use victrebell. please stop insisting it is because sun is not a good playstyle. i dont know how else to put this.
astroboy said:
heres a quick thing. this was written on mobile so :x
dont use torterra as a sun setter, use it as a tank that just happens to set sun.
while torterra is really good because of drought, i feel like people are misinterpreting its role. its not like this thing is the new politoed, whos only used to support its team, but its just a tank that checks most weather and weather setters. using it otherwise is just a total waste, as sun by itself is a terrible weather and youre better off just going with rain if u wanna use weather abusers. basically, use sun to negate other weathers, not as its own weather; kinda like that one bw2 hellraiser team. id support venusaur to, say, c+, but implying other chlorophyll users are viable is... wrong, lol
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anyways, zoroark got sludge bomb. fuck everything. heres a set that ive been tinkering with for theorymon
571.png

Zoroark @ Life Orb
Ability: Illusion
EVs: 64 Atk / 192 SpA / 252 Spe
Hasty Nature
IVs: 29 HP
- Dark Pulse
- Focus Blast
- Sludge Bomb
- Sucker Punch

spa evs let you 2hko standard clefable with sludge bomb with the rest dumped in attack/speed to hit a little harder with sucker and be fast as possible. this set is designed to bone more defensively oriented teams that lack a mixed defense mega sable, while also being no slouch against offense thanks to sucker punch. sucker punch should be used sparingly, revealing it only when you come up against a faster foe, especially ones that are faster, such as megazam. this facade is best used when trying to bluff the nasty plot
knock off support is much appreciates, and actually lets zoroark have a shot at beating chansey thanks to stab focus blast, providing no misses. due to a weakness to offensive rox garchomp is a solid partner for zoro, setting up rocks, checking talon, and together they overwhelm fairies. mega metagross is also an ideal partner, checking fairies and doing cool mind-games stuff. cool set
 
astroboy said:
isa simple, sun isnt a thing just because torterra is good. its not. dont use victrebell. please stop insisting it is because sun is not a good playstyle. i dont know how else to put this.


anyways, zoroark got sludge bomb. fuck everything. heres a set that ive been tinkering with for theorymon
571.png

Zoroark @ Life Orb
Ability: Illusion
EVs: 64 Atk / 192 SpA / 252 Spe
Hasty Nature
IVs: 29 HP
- Dark Pulse
- Focus Blast
- Sludge Bomb
- Sucker Punch

spa evs let you 2hko standard clefable with sludge bomb with the rest dumped in attack/speed to hit a little harder with sucker and be fast as possible. this set is designed to bone more defensively oriented teams that lack a mixed defense mega sable, while also being no slouch against offense thanks to sucker punch. sucker punch should be used sparingly, revealing it only when you come up against a faster foe, especially ones that are faster, such as megazam. this facade is best used when trying to bluff the nasty plot
knock off support is much appreciates, and actually lets zoroark have a shot at beating chansey thanks to stab focus blast, providing no misses. due to a weakness to offensive rox garchomp is a solid partner for zoro, setting up rocks, checking talon, and together they overwhelm fairies. mega metagross is also an ideal partner, checking fairies and doing cool mind-games stuff. cool set
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Ya, its interesting it got Sludge and now its sorta got that nice coverage to abuse. Its got the trade off from Hoop of being faster, weaker, and frailer but cant attempt illusion mind games. Is it abusing Vacuum Wave here? No, cause frankly its not needed. It be nice seeing how Zor does with even this buff from Nintendo to its Dark/Fighting STABs. Enjoy the set, and if ya get a replay or two, don't be afraid to share em :D
 
Alright. Viability

Zoroak for A-!!!!

Mega Scep: B+

Mega Sceptile gaining Seed Flare FINALLY allows it to do what its made for... a wallbreaker/Cleaner. Honestly, while its a MAJOR buff, it faces stiff competion from Serp, who hits harder at +2 and doesn't take up that sacred Mega slot. But it has its advantages. It gets STAB on Dragon Pulse, has a useful immunity to take advantage of, sits at a MUCH better speed tier, and doesnt rely on various Hidden Powers to hit steels. With all of this in mind, plus a 30% to break through checks and counters, B+ is a exceptable initial ranking.

Gogoat : C/C+ I personally wanted Pranksterape but noooooo Well, while Gogoat is much more viable, its just not enough to make a splash on the metagame. While Fire types arent super common, the three best ice type mons in OU Theorymon can either break though it regardless due to their power, or simply ignores the ability. Maybe it will get more buffs in other slates, but at least its Bulk up sets are abit more viable. So C or C+ is an OK ranking for it now.

If this keeps up, 3 grass types will get buffd in a row! Year of the Weed?
 
Being able to bop fairies is an epic boon for Zoroark and I can definitely seeing it move up because of it.


I don't really have much to say on the latest additions. Its interesting though how we have now buffed 7 grass types, trailing just behind steel types now if I'm not mistaken.

Mega Sceptile
I have so many mixed feelings about this guy. I mean, realistically its a huge buff and makes Mega Sceptile a pretty sweet pokemon. But then Serperior is already a pretty sweet pokemon, and however I think Mega Sceptile is better than Serp, I don't think its better enough to warrant the Mega slot. So idk how to feel about this :/

Gogoat
I feel like this would have been good in standard OU, but here there is just too much power to warrant its slow boosting play style.


With regards to the current slate. It is quite upsetting that Gourgeist was gifted with the ability to wall Entei and Mega Camerupt, but can't actually kill either of them.

Jellicent is a cool spin blocker because it stops Forretress from Volt Switching as well, but then Forretress is immune to Scald so its a pretty dead matchup.
Jelli will be hurt by all the Grass and Dark type additions though?

Stoutland gives yet another tool to sand offence.
Actually while I think of it I wonder if Mega Pinsir will be really good on sand offence? I'm pretty sure that Thousand Waves Sandslash can remove almost all of its checks, outside of shit that is just stupidly physically bulky like Hippo and Mega Bro. But then they are removed by Cacturne. Maybe?
 
Some opinions I'd like to discuss:
nameless90 said:
Some opinions:
Gogoat: from unranked to C rank (initial placement).
Gogoat is a pure Grass type with 3 residual weaknesses (Fire and Ice are now neutral which, sadly, is not much more with that base Def) and is weak to all status including burn (sadly Thick Fat doesn't help in this direction) thus making it unable to have another STAB move and all us know that there are plenty of Grass resists. It has nice coverage options both physical (i.e. Earthquake, Rock Slide) and special (Surf) but 68 base speed with base 62 Def don't help. In my eyes this pokemon is outclassed ==> C rank seems a good initial placement.
Celebi: drop it from A- to B+
Celebi has a nice movepool including nice status moves but with attacks spotting middling base power with unfocused stats all around and, in particular, with many weaknesses that makes it a liability if you mispredict even once time even though your opponent is not prepared specifically to deal with Celebi.
Swampert (Mega) drop it from B+ to B-
In my eyes this is a "luxury" Mega because in a rain team you want some Megas (1) able to deal with opposite weather setters and/or (2) not stack the same weaknesses over and over. It is really a bulky pokemon but Mega Pinsir/Pidgeot/Heracross and so on are more useful because they can work effectively outside the Rain and provide utility getting rid of some annoying monster more easily than M-Swampert (the same happens in regular OU).
Manaphy: rise it from A+ to S rank.
The huge drop of Raikou leaves only Manectric and Thundurus as the only Electric-type pokemons in the entire A rank from A+ to A- leaving almost only pokemon with non-STAB Electric coverage and the new Fire-types monsters are obliterated by a +3 Scald so I think that Manaphy is now as strong as it is in regular OU not to mention its ability to 2HKO Drought Torterra without set-up and get rid of Sun. Due to metagame trends with the drop of many Electrics I think that Manaphy can do really well.
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Isa Simple said:
With regards to the current slate. It is quite upsetting that Gourgeist was gifted with the ability to wall Entei and Mega Camerupt, but can't actually kill either of them.
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The sad fact is that Gourgeist can come in on a predicted Fire-type attack but can't do much in return; at maximum can enter on a monster locked in a Fire move and proceed to SubSeed but can't hurt them much.
Isa Simple said:
Jellicent is a cool spin blocker because it stops Forretress from Volt Switching as well, but then Forretress is immune to Scald so its a pretty dead matchup. Jelli will be hurt by all the Grass and Dark type additions though?
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I don't see Jellicent really well in this "OU theorymon" metagame because there are less Electric types so Volt Absorb isn't so valuable and the buffs to the Grass and Dark-type pokemons is the nail in the coffin. In my opinion Jellicent from D rank to unranked.
Isa Simple said:
Stoutland gives yet another tool to sand offence.
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In my opinion no because Stoutland stacks an orrible 4x weakness to Fight, another 2x weakness to Faerie and another 2x weakness to Bug so Tyranitar is out of the picture leaving Hippowdon as the sand setter. Cradily (the new Sand Stream user) stacks another Fight weakness with other Sand Rush users such as Excadrill ===> Sand needs better Sand Rusher at least with different weakness to work properly.
 
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Isa Simple said:
Mega Sceptile
I have so many mixed feelings about this guy. I mean, realistically its a huge buff and makes Mega Sceptile a pretty sweet pokemon. But then Serperior is already a pretty sweet pokemon, and however I think Mega Sceptile is better than Serp, I don't think its better enough to warrant the Mega slot. So idk how to feel about this :/
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I can definitely see Mega Sceptile warranting a mega slot for a lot of reasons -- it outspeeds some extra relevant threats, gets better coverage moves, doesn't have ass power output before boosting, hard to paralyze, etc. Any or all of these would make it a serious contender over Serperior depending on a team's needs. But at the same time... it still takes up a mega slot. Put it a rank below Serperior in the VR for now, we can adjust as the meta adapts.

Gogoat
I feel like this would have been good in standard OU, but here there is just too much power to warrant its slow boosting play style.
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Agreed. Also, the Fire- and Ice-types in this meta beat it. It also faces serious competition as a boltbeam absorber from Empoleon and, potentially, Jellicent. Talonflame being incredibly good in this meta doesn't help. But it's not totally useless, either. Put it in C somewhere, idk.
With regards to the current slate. It is quite upsetting that Gourgeist was gifted with the ability to wall Entei and Mega Camerupt, but can't actually kill either of them.
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0 Atk Gourgeist-Super Rock Slide vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Entei: 124-146 (33.4 - 39.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
It doesn't kill Entei fast, but it does present some sort of threat to Entei. Mega Camerupt... yeah, I'll give you that. It can't really stop Mega Camerupt from setting up Growth (which is basically Nasty Plot under its ability).

0 Atk Gourgeist-Super Seed Bomb vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mega Camerupt: 87-103 (25.2 - 29.9%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
+2 252+ SpA Mega Camerupt Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 96 SpD Gourgeist-Super: 196-231 (52.4 - 61.7%) -- 98.4% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

With Synthesis sitting at 75% recovery under harsh sunlight, Camerupt needs to set up two Growths to plow through it; Gourgeist-XL is very easily capable of stalling through any Trick Room turns you might have if it switches in promptly, and at the very least taking a chunk out of it. So... it's a process.

Jellicent is a cool spin blocker because it stops Forretress from Volt Switching as well, but then Forretress is immune to Scald so its a pretty dead matchup.
Jelli will be hurt by all the Grass and Dark type additions though?
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It will also face substantial competition from Empoleon, which also works as a boltbeam killer. Granted, they work different sides of the hazard game, but there's still overlap. I could see it being a bit more useful than in standard, but the new ability does nothing to mitigate the Knock Off weakness that helped drop it down to RU. Probably the biggest thing going against it is that Grass is getting massive buffs in this meta as well, which also makes me less inclined to say that it'll be as easy to fit on teams.


Stoutland gives yet another tool to sand offence.
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Sand offense doesn't need too many more tools, does it? Between Excadrill, Sandslash, and Cacturne, I'm not really sure that there would be too much room for it. It also has redundant at best type synergy with these 'mons. I don't anticipate a serious impact on the meta, though naturally one more Pursuit trapper always means that Psychics and Ghosts get just a bit worse.

Actually while I think of it I wonder if Mega Pinsir will be really good on sand offence? I'm pretty sure that Thousand *Arrows Sandslash can remove almost all of its checks, outside of shit that is just stupidly physically bulky like Hippo and Mega Bro. But then they are removed by Cacturne. Maybe?
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Ugh, that core actually looks disgusting. Mega Pinsir even wipes Virizion off the face of the earth. Yeah, Mega Pinsir looks like a serious contender for sand teams; shame that it hates taking sand damage, though.
 
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Howdy The Immortal . Parently one of the fellas didn't get his buff encoded in. Can't really blame it since it was a Mega Latios change but still.

Basically Mega Latios was changed to a Dragon/Ghost Type + Analytic and it is still possessing of the psychic typing (A Focus Blast came out of nowhere to hit it. didn't affect the battle all that much thankfully). If ya could fix it, it be a great help :D
 
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Salemance said:
Howdy Immortal . Parently one of the fellas didn't get his buff encoded in. Can't really blame it since it was a Mega Latios change but still.

Basically Mega Latios was changed to a Dragon/Ghost Type + Analytic and it is still possessing of the psychic typing (A Focus Blast came out of nowhere to hit it. didn't affect the battle all that much thankfully). If ya could fix it, it be a great help :D
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I think you mean The Immortal. :P
 
another sample team that i made. im absolutely in love with it so here u go

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i wanted to build around magnet rise cobalion, which uses megalix as set-up fodder, alongside some that that appreciates lix removed, so my first pick was diancie because holy jesus this thing is scary in theorymon. i preferred rp>protect because it absolutely bonezones offense, as it typically relies on thundys twaveor priority to beat set-up sweepers, which diancie can shrug off (bar azus jet). goodra was chosen for the next slot as my check to fire-types, sceptile, moltres, waters, and pretty much every special attacker. moltres handles steels that revenge diancie like scizor, beat grass types, and absorbs the status that plagues coba the team. garchomp sets rocks, provides a secondary entei check, and takes advantage of coba trapping skarm+ferro, albeit theyre uncommon in this fast-paced meta. while garchomps spread might seem weird, it lets it take two earth powers from mega camerupt, and ohko after rocks in return, while the remaining evs are dumped into defense to take physical hits better. av azu was my last choice, acting as a keldeo check, a kyurem check, and a rp diancie check. you could do cb but i dont like being taken advantage of by camel and without it this team is super keld weak. azu also appreciates coba trapping steels.

defog or u-turn is really a toss-up on how you want to play this team. defog lets you get rid of spikes, which easily wear down this team, and provides excellent hazard control for an offensive team alongside diancie. on the other hand, u turn could be used to lure in heatran and trap it with cobalion.

Cobalion @ Shuca Berry
Ability: Magnet Pull
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Magnet Rise
- Close Combat
- Swords Dance
- Iron Head

Diancie-Mega @ Diancite
Ability: Clear Body
EVs: 68 HP / 252 SpA / 188 Spe
Rash Nature
- Rock Polish
- Moonblast
- Diamond Storm
- Earth Power

Goodra @ Assault Vest
Ability: Protean
EVs: 192 HP / 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 60 Spe
Mild Nature
- Sludge Wave
- Earthquake
- Thunderbolt
- Fire Blast

Moltres @ Life Orb
Ability: Magic Guard
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
- Hurricane
- Flamethrower
- Roost
- Defog / U-turn

Garchomp @ Rocky Helmet
Ability: Rough Skin
EVs: 252 HP / 56 Atk / 28 Def / 172 SpD
Impish Nature
- Dragon Tail
- Earthquake
- Stone Edge
- Stealth Rock

Azumarill @ Assault Vest
Ability: Huge Power
EVs: 240 HP / 252 Atk / 16 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Play Rough
- Waterfall
- Aqua Jet
- Facade
 
astroboy said:
another sample team that i made. im absolutely in love with it so here u go

638.png
719-m.png
706.png
146.png
445.png
184.png


i wanted to build around magnet rise cobalion, which uses megalix as set-up fodder, alongside some that that appreciates lix removed, so my first pick was diancie because holy jesus this thing is scary in theorymon. i preferred rp>protect because it absolutely bonezones offense, as it typically relies on thundys twaveor priority to beat set-up sweepers, which diancie can shrug off (bar azus jet). goodra was chosen for the next slot as my check to fire-types, sceptile, moltres, waters, and pretty much every special attacker. moltres handles steels that revenge diancie like scizor, beat grass types, and absorbs the status that plagues coba the team. garchomp sets rocks, provides a secondary entei check, and takes advantage of coba trapping skarm+ferro, albeit theyre uncommon in this fast-paced meta. while garchomps spread might seem weird, it lets it take two earth powers from mega camerupt, and ohko after rocks in return, while the remaining evs are dumped into defense to take physical hits better. av azu was my last choice, acting as a keldeo check, a kyurem check, and a rp diancie check. you could do cb but i dont like being taken advantage of by camel and without it this team is super keld weak. azu also appreciates coba trapping steels.

defog or u-turn is really a toss-up on how you want to play this team. defog lets you get rid of spikes, which easily wear down this team, and provides excellent hazard control for an offensive team alongside diancie. on the other hand, u turn could be used to lure in heatran and trap it with cobalion.

Cobalion @ Shuca Berry
Ability: Magnet Pull
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Magnet Rise
- Close Combat
- Swords Dance
- Iron Head

Diancie-Mega @ Diancite
Ability: Clear Body
EVs: 68 HP / 252 SpA / 188 Spe
Rash Nature
- Rock Polish
- Moonblast
- Diamond Storm
- Earth Power

Goodra @ Assault Vest
Ability: Protean
EVs: 192 HP / 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 60 Spe
Mild Nature
- Sludge Wave
- Earthquake
- Thunderbolt
- Fire Blast

Moltres @ Life Orb
Ability: Magic Guard
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
- Hurricane
- Flamethrower
- Roost
- Defog / U-turn

Garchomp @ Rocky Helmet
Ability: Rough Skin
EVs: 252 HP / 56 Atk / 28 Def / 172 SpD
Impish Nature
- Dragon Tail
- Earthquake
- Stone Edge
- Stealth Rock

Azumarill @ Assault Vest
Ability: Huge Power
EVs: 240 HP / 252 Atk / 16 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Play Rough
- Waterfall
- Aqua Jet
- Facade
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This is a really cool team dude, so probs for that :]

I'm just wondering what the Shuca Berry is for? You're mainly gonna be getting Cobalion in on Doubles and revenges, so maybe LO is better to get the guaranteed KO on Heatran, and to get some damage (if you win the Speed tie) on Virizion. Speaking of Virizion, it can really tear your team apart if Chomper takes any damage; maybe Scarfing Moltres might be a good idea.
 
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