Jellicent + Volt Absorb
Honorable Mention: Noivern + Nasty Plot
Honorable Mention: Noivern + Nasty Plot
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This STILL isn't over... oh well.
Why vote 4 a mega you would never use, ANOTHER sand tool, or a fire type check that doesn't actually check them?
Vote 4 the mon that Shits on Rapid Spin, the squid that owns electric types, and the jelly that can go toe to toe with the fierce Kyurem! Vote 4 Volt Absorb Jellicent.
And plz, PRANKSTER INFERNAPE!!!!
Why vote 4 a mega you would never use, ANOTHER sand tool, or a fire type check that doesn't actually check them?
Vote 4 the mon that Shits on Rapid Spin, the squid that owns electric types, and the jelly that can go toe to toe with the fierce Kyurem! Vote 4 Volt Absorb Jellicent.
And plz, PRANKSTER INFERNAPE!!!!
I said Kyurem, not Kyurem-B. Besides, Electric types aren't every good w/ Megalix, and that Dark typing just gives it a bad U-Turn weakness. And I prefer Zoroak as a Special dark type due to priority, Stealth Rock resistance, STAB to hit Chansey hard, a U-Turn neutrality, much better speed tier and the ability to get up at least one free NP(If used correctly)
Hello Theorymon thread frequenters! Lately there have been some complaints about the, erm, lower quality of posting recently. Some of the discussion posts border on bandwagoning which is most certainly not ok. I'll be keeping a closer eye on this thread the next few weeks to monitor the quality of discussion, so you've been warned.
In addition please never ask when the next slate will happen. Things take time to come to fruition and patience is a virtue!
In addition please never ask when the next slate will happen. Things take time to come to fruition and patience is a virtue!
Hey guys, so before I get into the slate and the winners, I have pretty big things to note. PLEASE read all of this, as there's some pretty important information.
The honorable mentions requirements is changing effective immediately. From now on, a Pokemon will need 20 votes to get into both the honorable mentions list and the archive instead of just ten. Recently, we've been seeing a massive flood of theorymons, and the metagame is getting really hard to handle. Celticpride made a really short PM that I like:
recreant edit: Removed Dragon Dance Glalie, both Unaware and Magic Bounce Umbreon, and Nasty Plot Noivern from the Honorable Mentions list. They are all either boring and uncreative or flat out bad in one way or another. There might be a couple more going sometime in the future.
Anyways, now that's out of the way, onto the new slate!
The winner is:
+ Rattled and Moonblast! bae ;o;
Votes:
Rattled + Moonblast Houndoom: 20
Flash Fire Gourgiest: 17
Volt Absorb Jellicent: 13
Dark / Normal Stoutland: 7
This slate will be:
+ Hustle (Credit to Jaroda )
+ Iron Barbs and Recover (Credit to YouAreOutOfMy5 )
+ Delta Stream (Credit to G-Luke )
+ Wish (Credit to InfernapeTropius11 )
Good luck to all submissions :)
The honorable mentions requirements is changing effective immediately. From now on, a Pokemon will need 20 votes to get into both the honorable mentions list and the archive instead of just ten. Recently, we've been seeing a massive flood of theorymons, and the metagame is getting really hard to handle. Celticpride made a really short PM that I like:
And he's right. If you think about it, some of these honorable mentions aren't even worth voting for and will never be used in any battles. I'm not personally a fan of HM to begin with, but I think this'll sort things out for the better.
recreant edit: Removed Dragon Dance Glalie, both Unaware and Magic Bounce Umbreon, and Nasty Plot Noivern from the Honorable Mentions list. They are all either boring and uncreative or flat out bad in one way or another. There might be a couple more going sometime in the future.
Anyways, now that's out of the way, onto the new slate!
The winner is:
Votes:
Rattled + Moonblast Houndoom: 20
Flash Fire Gourgiest: 17
Volt Absorb Jellicent: 13
Dark / Normal Stoutland: 7
This slate will be:
Good luck to all submissions :)
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Zygarde + Hustle: I'd be all over this think more highly of it if Zygarde didn't already have a Coil set, so... idk I feel like it could be too hard to stop after it sets one of those up. what's the accuracy of Dragon Tail after Hustle + Coil? Also given its typing and statline, I have to wonder whether it wouldn't partially just absorb some of the niche granted to offensive Garchomp, rather than carve its own. But I've actually never used offensive Garchomp in a standardesque meta so idk how it really operates. I'm not feeling Zygarde either way.
Tentacruel + Iron Barbs + Recover: Iron Barbs is equal parts awful flavor and perfect flavor just going by the name, but the effect itself is definitely on point so I'll call it a win. Iron Barbs is a great ability, as being able to annoy physically offensive opponents is much appreciated. Recover probably isn't as big of a buff as one would imagine because Tentacruel's statline and movepool suggest Utility, not Wall. Nonetheless, this is a cool submission that buffs a cool Pokemon, and I'm liable to vote for it. Time to bust out the Garchomp + Ferrothorn + Tentacruel cores. That's not a joke.
Zapdos + Delta Stream: Anyone who's played AAA should know how good this is and how hard it is to break. If this was just for the Theorymon Metagame I would be tempted to vote for this as it brings in a great weather check and a great defogger (we NEED those dammit), but it isn't, and I'm not a huge fan of copping a primal legend's signature ability without a really compelling reason. Nice submission, but I don't want to vote for it.
(What would be really cool is if Zapdos got Magic Guard like Moltres did -- it could be fantastic in many roles if it did, and it would help flesh out that cycle).
Furfrou: Dropping Furfrou down to two moveslots (after Wish + Protect) makes it even more one-dimensional than it was before. I doubt it would really gel defensively on stall teams anyways, providing no real defensive synergy -- Chansey gets a pass because it's the game's best special sponge and wish passer, and also it clerics. Actually, Furfrou's negative synergy with Chansey is a pretty big strike against it, as the only playstyle that would actually want to run it doesn't really have a niche for it.
Tentacruel + Iron Barbs + Recover: Iron Barbs is equal parts awful flavor and perfect flavor just going by the name, but the effect itself is definitely on point so I'll call it a win. Iron Barbs is a great ability, as being able to annoy physically offensive opponents is much appreciated. Recover probably isn't as big of a buff as one would imagine because Tentacruel's statline and movepool suggest Utility, not Wall. Nonetheless, this is a cool submission that buffs a cool Pokemon, and I'm liable to vote for it. Time to bust out the Garchomp + Ferrothorn + Tentacruel cores. That's not a joke.
Zapdos + Delta Stream: Anyone who's played AAA should know how good this is and how hard it is to break. If this was just for the Theorymon Metagame I would be tempted to vote for this as it brings in a great weather check and a great defogger (we NEED those dammit), but it isn't, and I'm not a huge fan of copping a primal legend's signature ability without a really compelling reason. Nice submission, but I don't want to vote for it.
(What would be really cool is if Zapdos got Magic Guard like Moltres did -- it could be fantastic in many roles if it did, and it would help flesh out that cycle).
Furfrou: Dropping Furfrou down to two moveslots (after Wish + Protect) makes it even more one-dimensional than it was before. I doubt it would really gel defensively on stall teams anyways, providing no real defensive synergy -- Chansey gets a pass because it's the game's best special sponge and wish passer, and also it clerics. Actually, Furfrou's negative synergy with Chansey is a pretty big strike against it, as the only playstyle that would actually want to run it doesn't really have a niche for it.
Quick two cents on the new submissions here:
Zyrgade+hustle:
With zyrgade's typing, one might be tempted to call him an inferior Gachomp. With hustle, he would hit harder than chomp, but looses accuracy. This would reduce his set viability to the (sub) coil sets. however, these would be VASTLY increased. He'd have enough power to 2hko most of OU with dtail and eq. however, he cant touch skarm,togekiss, lando t, and celibi. also, he's still completely vulnerable to fast attackers with ice coverage.
Tentacruel+ recover+iron barbs:
tanky just got tanker, and toxic spikes got more toxic! with recovery+iron barbs, he'd make the plethora of physical attackers regret nailing him on the switch. however, STAB eq would still be a pain to play around.
Zapdos+delta stream:
Ah, the old "i have no weaknesses" syndrome. yet another excellent defensive boost. a little too good, imo. he can survive almost anything OU throws at him. seriously, it has a good chance of surviving banded victini's v-create.
Furfrou+wish:
Why didn't this thing get wish to begin with? it just looks like the kinda mon that should have it. Anyways, it would be a pretty useful wish passer in the face of physical attackers without a s.e move. I'd rank this one in the C ranks
Zyrgade+hustle:
With zyrgade's typing, one might be tempted to call him an inferior Gachomp. With hustle, he would hit harder than chomp, but looses accuracy. This would reduce his set viability to the (sub) coil sets. however, these would be VASTLY increased. He'd have enough power to 2hko most of OU with dtail and eq. however, he cant touch skarm,togekiss, lando t, and celibi. also, he's still completely vulnerable to fast attackers with ice coverage.
Tentacruel+ recover+iron barbs:
tanky just got tanker, and toxic spikes got more toxic! with recovery+iron barbs, he'd make the plethora of physical attackers regret nailing him on the switch. however, STAB eq would still be a pain to play around.
Zapdos+delta stream:
Ah, the old "i have no weaknesses" syndrome. yet another excellent defensive boost. a little too good, imo. he can survive almost anything OU throws at him. seriously, it has a good chance of surviving banded victini's v-create.
Furfrou+wish:
Why didn't this thing get wish to begin with? it just looks like the kinda mon that should have it. Anyways, it would be a pretty useful wish passer in the face of physical attackers without a s.e move. I'd rank this one in the C ranks
Just a small point, don't see how living band V-create matters here:
252 Atk Choice Band Victini V-create vs. 248 HP / 176+ Def Zapdos: 315-372 (82.2 - 97.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
When it isn't living V-create in the first place without Delta Stream (got to factor that SR in here bud since Zap is often seen as a defogger). Heck, aint even an Adamant calc. Sure it doesn't have a weakness, but strong neutral hits are still able to fuck it over as demonstrated here. Not posting thoughts on rest of slate, but just commenting on that bit here
Zygarde + Hustle: Sad. Zygarde is a meager pokemon due to the fact it had a useless ability but Hustle tries to redeem this making the Lum Berry+Coil sets more viable improving a little its viability whereas the Dragon Dance set will be weakened. The sad fact is that now you have to boost your accuracy before using a move to revenge kill something (i.e. before you could use Extremespeed with 100% accuracy to kill a weakened monster but now you have to rely on 80% accuracy before a Coil). Zygarde needs something else to make the cut in OU.
Tentacruel + Iron Barbs + Recover: Nice because Recover is a move which Tentacruel desperately needs to become strong thanks to that special bulk even though you have to cut something to find a room for this recovery; Iron Barbs is nice -even more with Recover- to deal chip damage to physical attackers even though its physical side is quite frail with a weakness to Earthquake which avoids Iron Barbs' recoil. Still, these two buffs make Tentacruel interesting.
Zapdos + Delta Stream: Nice submission because Delta Stream leaves Zapdos with no weaknesses even though has "only" 5 resists, two of which are uncommon (Bug and Steel). I won't vote for Zapdos because the addition of Drizzle+Hurricane on the Thunderbird fits the flavour better. That's all.
Furfrou: No, please. Wish is a nice addition but this thing can't be a good Wish passer with 75 base HP and this buff won't change anything.
Tentacruel + Iron Barbs + Recover: Nice because Recover is a move which Tentacruel desperately needs to become strong thanks to that special bulk even though you have to cut something to find a room for this recovery; Iron Barbs is nice -even more with Recover- to deal chip damage to physical attackers even though its physical side is quite frail with a weakness to Earthquake which avoids Iron Barbs' recoil. Still, these two buffs make Tentacruel interesting.
Zapdos + Delta Stream: Nice submission because Delta Stream leaves Zapdos with no weaknesses even though has "only" 5 resists, two of which are uncommon (Bug and Steel). I won't vote for Zapdos because the addition of Drizzle+Hurricane on the Thunderbird fits the flavour better. That's all.
Furfrou: No, please. Wish is a nice addition but this thing can't be a good Wish passer with 75 base HP and this buff won't change anything.
Zygarde kinda blows, even though Coil + Hustle has really nice synergy, it makes it really inconsistent if you ever need it outside of set up situations. Still better as a wincon, so it might be alright on slow teams that can afford to stomach a missed Dragon Tail a little better.
Tentacruel has really only been missing recovery to make it worth something in OU, so this is obviously pretty good. Being able to check things like Keldeo and Azumarill over the course of a match rather than being on a timer is a huge deal for any defensive mon. Iron Barbs is a neat little addition that I like quite a bit. Tentacruel's other abilities are really situational, so being able to punish U-Turns from things like Scizor is a great addition.
Ok Zapdos is actually awesome. Pressure is more or less useless for most situations, but Delta Stream allows it to dump on all its traditional weaknesses, giving it a wider variety of things to switch into. What's great is that this is a gift to all variants of Zapdos, be it offensive Volt Switch, defensive Defog, or SubToxic. Great nomination that will probably get my vote.
Also nameless90, don't bother holding out on a nomination because you'd like another idea better. Council confirmed that Drizzle Zapdos isn't getting slated.
Tentacruel has really only been missing recovery to make it worth something in OU, so this is obviously pretty good. Being able to check things like Keldeo and Azumarill over the course of a match rather than being on a timer is a huge deal for any defensive mon. Iron Barbs is a neat little addition that I like quite a bit. Tentacruel's other abilities are really situational, so being able to punish U-Turns from things like Scizor is a great addition.
Ok Zapdos is actually awesome. Pressure is more or less useless for most situations, but Delta Stream allows it to dump on all its traditional weaknesses, giving it a wider variety of things to switch into. What's great is that this is a gift to all variants of Zapdos, be it offensive Volt Switch, defensive Defog, or SubToxic. Great nomination that will probably get my vote.
Also nameless90, don't bother holding out on a nomination because you'd like another idea better. Council confirmed that Drizzle Zapdos isn't getting slated.
Zygarde's main problem is that its Att is so low it needs to get to +2 DD or Coil to even reach a serviceable level of damage. Its +1 ESpeed was so weak it couldnt even OHKO Alakazam or something like that. Hustle really helps in that regard by giving it that free +1 equivalent of Att.
Honestly when I first saw Hustle Zygarde, what came to my mind was not a coil set, but rather a Choice Band set. It is basically CB Dragonite trading 20% accuracy for a better typing and more raw damage. For reference, its Banded Outrage from it literally hits harder than Mega Medicham HJK, and that's backed up with a hilariously powerful Extreme Speed that does over 70% to many faster mons.
Oh ya why is Zapdos getting a theorymon? I thought only B- and below could get one
Edit: Honestly recovery is the lesser of Furfrou's problems, the bigger one being that it is basically set up bait for everything in the tier. Chansey gets away having that problem because stuff fail to get past it even at +6 SpA, but it is different for Furfrou when everything it is supposed to check simply break it at +2. Wish mandating Protect does not help its cause, making it hard to fit Roar on a set. Faces tons of competition particularly with Skarmory, who has a far better typing, which complements Chansey's, and still checks 99% of the things Furfrou checks. Also faces competition with Quagsire, who checks every physical set up attacker in the tier, and actually does things back with Scald.
Honestly when I first saw Hustle Zygarde, what came to my mind was not a coil set, but rather a Choice Band set. It is basically CB Dragonite trading 20% accuracy for a better typing and more raw damage. For reference, its Banded Outrage from it literally hits harder than Mega Medicham HJK, and that's backed up with a hilariously powerful Extreme Speed that does over 70% to many faster mons.
252+ Atk Choice Band Hustle Zygarde Outrage vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Manaphy: 403-475 (118.1 - 139.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
240+ Atk Pure Power Mega Medicham High Jump Kick vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Manaphy: 384-453 (112.6 - 132.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Hustle Zygarde Outrage vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Manaphy: 351-413 (102.9 - 121.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Dragonite Outrage vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Manaphy: 330-388 (96.7 - 113.7%) -- 75% chance to OHKO
240+ Atk Pure Power Mega Medicham High Jump Kick vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Manaphy: 384-453 (112.6 - 132.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Hustle Zygarde Outrage vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Manaphy: 351-413 (102.9 - 121.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Dragonite Outrage vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Manaphy: 330-388 (96.7 - 113.7%) -- 75% chance to OHKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Hustle Zygarde Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Weavile: 253-298 (90 - 106%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Choice Band Hustle Zygarde Extreme Speed vs. 96 HP / 0- Def Tornadus-T: 240-283 (74.3 - 87.6%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Choice Band Hustle Zygarde Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Latios: 216-255 (72.2 - 85.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Hustle Zygarde Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mega Lopunny: 188-222 (69.3 - 81.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Hustle Zygarde Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Keldeo: 195-230 (60.3 - 71.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Hustle Zygarde Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Thundurus: 239-282 (79.9 - 94.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Choice Band Hustle Zygarde Extreme Speed vs. 96 HP / 0- Def Tornadus-T: 240-283 (74.3 - 87.6%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Choice Band Hustle Zygarde Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Latios: 216-255 (72.2 - 85.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Hustle Zygarde Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mega Lopunny: 188-222 (69.3 - 81.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Hustle Zygarde Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Keldeo: 195-230 (60.3 - 71.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Hustle Zygarde Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Thundurus: 239-282 (79.9 - 94.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
Edit: Honestly recovery is the lesser of Furfrou's problems, the bigger one being that it is basically set up bait for everything in the tier. Chansey gets away having that problem because stuff fail to get past it even at +6 SpA, but it is different for Furfrou when everything it is supposed to check simply break it at +2. Wish mandating Protect does not help its cause, making it hard to fit Roar on a set. Faces tons of competition particularly with Skarmory, who has a far better typing, which complements Chansey's, and still checks 99% of the things Furfrou checks. Also faces competition with Quagsire, who checks every physical set up attacker in the tier, and actually does things back with Scald.
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No Guard & Hurricane or bust, brah.
Okay, done being upset that hours of research went nowhere.
I'd like to focus on Zygarde and ask why? Why only one buff? Why not add a new move too? If it had been with +Recover or +Stealth Rocks or +Defog, or a fire move (even with Recoil, a +1 Atk adamant max attack Zygard can kill a Bronzog or a Skarmory with max defenses,) or even Gunk Blast for Faieies (and it'd really mesh with the Coil theme,) I could get behind it. I'm not sure hitting hard enough was Zyg's problem, tbh. It has limited durability even with 108/121/95 defenses and a decent typing. Simply put, it just gets worn down by status, since now it needs an extra coil to make sure Stone Edge never misses.
My submission for Furfrou:
Furfrou + Wish
So I want to give Furfrou Wish. I imagine this filling a neat role on bulky balance teams, and in particular VoltTurn teams. With 248 HP / 16 Atk / 244 Def and an Impish nature it can turn into a reliable switch in to most phsyical variants of Hoopa-U (barring Band Adamant but nothing walls that except for maybe something like Fur Coat Mandibuzz lmfao), as well as passing Wishes to teammates as it gets U-Turn, while having pretty reliable recovery itself. This is balanced out by the fact that Wish basically makes Protect mandatory on the set, thus limiting it's movepool. I would use a set like this:
Furfrou @ Leftovers
Ability: Fur Coat
EVs: 248 HP / 16 Atk / 244 Def
Impish Nature
- U-Turn / Return
- Toxic / Return
- Wish
- Protect
So basically, while it already checked these mons, it never had recovery so it couldn't do it more than once. This would fix that problem and make it a good wall on stallier teams or an excellent pivot on balance without becoming too amazing, as it still loses to most special attackers/strong boosting mons. In particular, it checks sand offense really well, as well as almost every physical scarfer, some Band users, and most physical non-boosting Megas.
Furfrou + Wish
So I want to give Furfrou Wish. I imagine this filling a neat role on bulky balance teams, and in particular VoltTurn teams. With 248 HP / 16 Atk / 244 Def and an Impish nature it can turn into a reliable switch in to most phsyical variants of Hoopa-U (barring Band Adamant but nothing walls that except for maybe something like Fur Coat Mandibuzz lmfao), as well as passing Wishes to teammates as it gets U-Turn, while having pretty reliable recovery itself. This is balanced out by the fact that Wish basically makes Protect mandatory on the set, thus limiting it's movepool. I would use a set like this:
Furfrou @ Leftovers
Ability: Fur Coat
EVs: 248 HP / 16 Atk / 244 Def
Impish Nature
- U-Turn / Return
- Toxic / Return
- Wish
- Protect
252 Atk Life Orb Hoopa-Unbound Hyperspace Fury vs. 248 HP / 244+ Def Fur Coat Furfrou: 122-146 (34.5 - 41.3%) -- 69.2% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Life Orb Hoopa-Unbound Hyperspace Fury vs. 248 HP / 244+ Def Fur Coat Furfrou: 122-146 (34.5 - 41.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
16 Atk Furfrou U-turn vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Hoopa: 264-312 (87.7 - 103.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Conkeldurr Drain Punch vs. 248 HP / 244+ Def Fur Coat Furfrou: 144-170 (40.7 - 48.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Huge Power Azumarill Play Rough vs. 248 HP / 244+ Def Fur Coat Furfrou: 133-157 (37.6 - 44.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
(can't take Superpower, but still pretty good)
252+ Atk Mega Scizor Superpower vs. 248 HP / 244+ Def Fur Coat Furfrou: 158-188 (44.7 - 53.2%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Life Orb Weavile Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 248 HP / 244+ Def Fur Coat Furfrou: 99-117 (28 - 33.1%) -- 80.7% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
hardwalls every Jirachi ever pretty much rofl
252 Atk Jirachi Iron Head vs. 248 HP / 244+ Def Fur Coat Furfrou: 55-66 (15.5 - 18.6%) -- possible 8HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Life Orb Bisharp Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 248 HP / 244+ Def Fur Coat Furfrou: 99-118 (28 - 33.4%) -- 92.2% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Aerilate Mega Pinsir Return vs. 248 HP / 244+ Def Fur Coat Furfrou: 135-160 (38.2 - 45.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Life Orb Excadrill Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 244+ Def Fur Coat Furfrou: 121-142 (34.2 - 40.2%) -- 33.9% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Tyranitar Stone Edge vs. 248 HP / 244+ Def Fur Coat Furfrou: 84-99 (23.7 - 28%) -- 87.4% chance to 4HKO after sandstorm damage and Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Sand Force Mega Garchomp Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 244+ Def Fur Coat Furfrou in Sand: 142-168 (40.2 - 47.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after sandstorm damage and Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Life Orb Hoopa-Unbound Hyperspace Fury vs. 248 HP / 244+ Def Fur Coat Furfrou: 122-146 (34.5 - 41.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
16 Atk Furfrou U-turn vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Hoopa: 264-312 (87.7 - 103.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Conkeldurr Drain Punch vs. 248 HP / 244+ Def Fur Coat Furfrou: 144-170 (40.7 - 48.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Huge Power Azumarill Play Rough vs. 248 HP / 244+ Def Fur Coat Furfrou: 133-157 (37.6 - 44.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
(can't take Superpower, but still pretty good)
252+ Atk Mega Scizor Superpower vs. 248 HP / 244+ Def Fur Coat Furfrou: 158-188 (44.7 - 53.2%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Life Orb Weavile Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 248 HP / 244+ Def Fur Coat Furfrou: 99-117 (28 - 33.1%) -- 80.7% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
hardwalls every Jirachi ever pretty much rofl
252 Atk Jirachi Iron Head vs. 248 HP / 244+ Def Fur Coat Furfrou: 55-66 (15.5 - 18.6%) -- possible 8HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Life Orb Bisharp Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 248 HP / 244+ Def Fur Coat Furfrou: 99-118 (28 - 33.4%) -- 92.2% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Aerilate Mega Pinsir Return vs. 248 HP / 244+ Def Fur Coat Furfrou: 135-160 (38.2 - 45.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Life Orb Excadrill Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 244+ Def Fur Coat Furfrou: 121-142 (34.2 - 40.2%) -- 33.9% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Tyranitar Stone Edge vs. 248 HP / 244+ Def Fur Coat Furfrou: 84-99 (23.7 - 28%) -- 87.4% chance to 4HKO after sandstorm damage and Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Sand Force Mega Garchomp Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 244+ Def Fur Coat Furfrou in Sand: 142-168 (40.2 - 47.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after sandstorm damage and Leftovers recovery
So basically, while it already checked these mons, it never had recovery so it couldn't do it more than once. This would fix that problem and make it a good wall on stallier teams or an excellent pivot on balance without becoming too amazing, as it still loses to most special attackers/strong boosting mons. In particular, it checks sand offense really well, as well as almost every physical scarfer, some Band users, and most physical non-boosting Megas.
I believe it was because of it's recent drop to UU.
Anyways, onto more Zapdos
Question, but why are you giving this thing the ability that made it an absolute God in AAA about five months back?
With Reliable Healing, Delta Stream getting rid of it's weaknesses and giving it an resistance to electric types moves, although it's ability hinders it's own STAB in T-Bolt a bit, Zapdos can now come in and create ridiculous Defensive cores with other pokemon like M-ampharos especially since it can comfortably take a protean goodra's Life Orb Ice beam:
252+ SpA Life Orb Goodra Ice Beam vs. 248 HP / 180+ SpD Zapdos in Strong Winds: 153-183 (39.9 - 47.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
That is honestly really scary.
My personal favorite of this bunch is probably Iron Barbs + Recover Tentacruel at the moment. Iron Barbs helps Tentacruel actively deter and punish contact Physical moves, which in terms of neutral hits are usually what it has to fear in prediction situations the most often, while also allowing it to further penalize resisted moves it switches into such as U-Turn or Fighting attacks and deter attempts to spin away its Toxic Spikes. With Iron Barbs, Scald, and Toxic Spikes, Tentacruel has several sources of Passive damage available to it. Recover compliments this since it allows it to stay healthy checking things like Keldeo, Azumarill, and certain Altaria sets, and makes it less dependent on Black Sludge to get health back over time; my main issue using Tentacruel even in a core is the things it has to check are things that can usually get in more than once, which entails Tentacruel switching into quite a few attacks rather than stopping them a few times to squander their occasional switch-in chances. Recover allows it to exploit the turns where the opponent can't touch it or they're sitting at a stalemate to keep itself healthy to check again.
The one issue it faces is slightly more crowding for Moveslots: It can't Spin, Toxic Spike and Recover all on the same set and still sufficiently carry its Utility STABs, so there's a bit more team dependent pick and choose there. Still, this is an improvement that's simple but effective.
The one issue it faces is slightly more crowding for Moveslots: It can't Spin, Toxic Spike and Recover all on the same set and still sufficiently carry its Utility STABs, so there's a bit more team dependent pick and choose there. Still, this is an improvement that's simple but effective.
Yeah I really like Zygarde, and having the option of Hustle is pretty cash, even if you don't use the almost mandatory coil on it. Coil with Life orb is gonna be sick to be honest, the power is just so lush - set up infront of a physical attacker and this happens:
+1 252+ Atk Life Orb Hustle Zygarde Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 172 Def Clefable: 458-539 (116.2 - 136.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Even the uninvested sub-coil set 2HKO's at +1.
It would definitely ramp it up to B+, A viability; it's main problem would be competing for the Ground slot while not offering Intimidate/Rocks.
'Cos we're only human. :(
Yeah I can see the use of Furfrou and it would help it's viability having wish no doubt, but that Normal typing really lets it down, as does its passiveness.
I haven't played AAA, but I can imagine the use for this, completely 6-0'ing rain teams (aside from Swampert) and doing some serious damage to Sand, with Excadrill not able to hit it now:
252+ Atk Life Orb Excadrill Rock Slide vs. 248 HP / 176+ Def Zapdos in Strong Winds: 101-122 (26.3 - 31.8%) -- 37.7% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
With reliable recovery, this thing is gonna be a titan. It doesn't take strong neutral hits well mind:
+3 252 SpA Manaphy Scald vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Zapdos: 297-351 (77.5 - 91.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
232 SpA Pixilate Mega Gardevoir Hyper Voice vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Zapdos: 246-291 (64.2 - 75.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Yeah Tenta's a beast - it's gonna form a nasty passive damage core with Ferro, and with recover, it can reliably take care of Azu, without getting worn down. I think it'll more be used as a bulky spinner with STABS + recover + Spin, but Toxic Spikes are really good at the minute.
Even with just recover it would be a really solid buff - it helps to consistantly switch into and check Keldeo, among others; but Iron Barbs is the cherry on the cake.
STAB Earthquake also has neutral or better coverage on most Fairy, Rock and Steel types as well. CB Zygarde causes a lot of 50 50s between Fairies and Flying / Levitating Pokemon, but damn that thing hits like a truck right off the bat. Just pair this thing with Mag and watch it go. For example:
-1 252+ Atk Choice Band Hustle Zygarde Outrage vs. 252 HP / 240+ Def Landorus-T: 210-247 (54.9 - 64.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Hustle Zygarde Outrage vs. 252 HP / 80+ Def Mega Slowbro: 208-246 (52.7 - 62.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
It does have downsides as both STABs have immunities, and the 80% chance to miss sucks. But still, those calcs 0_0
In other news I think Tentacruel is a strong strong contender this slate. Rapid Spin + Recover is enough to make for a viable spinner, and Iron Barbs is just a bonus. Toxic Spikes is also a good perk, as there are very few useable a Toxic Spikers in OU at the moment. But seriously, more spinners is always great, especially where Tenta isn't Pursuit weak.
Seeing as I came up with Delta Stream Zapdos, (why didn't I get credit Recreant), I will post why I created submitted it.
Delta Stream Zapdos brings A LOT of utility to teams, allowing them to have great defensive synergy. It rids it of its pesky rock weakness, allowing it to comfortablely wall ground types easier.
I personally like Tentacruel better than my own sub ( its that good) so its down to Zappy Stream and Barbed recovery Tenta for me!
Delta Stream Zapdos brings A LOT of utility to teams, allowing them to have great defensive synergy. It rids it of its pesky rock weakness, allowing it to comfortablely wall ground types easier.
Actually, as Weather is also very dominant in OU Theorymon, I'd rather add something to check weather than buff it. Plus that's a lame offensive buff with little creativity that the council probably wouldn't want to receive.
I personally like Tentacruel better than my own sub ( its that good) so its down to Zappy Stream and Barbed recovery Tenta for me!
Hustle rectifies the power of the moves after a Coil, so you have to use one turn to set-up in order to take out the opponent's pokemon reliably. In my opinion this ability makes Zygarde incosistent on the very first turn (before the Coil) because now it can't even take out something weakened with unboosted Extremespeed/Earthquake having now 80% accuracy; the Dragon Dance set is "ruined" by Hustle due to the accuracy drop of the moves. It reminds me Hustle Durant which sits on the speed tier of 109 and 109 base Atk (but with a middling bulk) which hits very hard but only IF hits the target.
The fact that Hustle doesn't become a mandatory ability doesn't make sense to me because Zygarde is a low-rank monster with basically no ability in regular OU and Hustle could be the only thing to make it better but I think that this new ability only works for the Coil set (the only viable niche of the dragon at this point).
Talking about Zapdos+Delta Stream I have to say that is nice because now "it has no weakness" bar Mold Breaker or similar (because this ability gets rid of unfortunate weaknesses provided by the Flying type) but I think that is too linear and a less valuable buff than Tentacruel+Recover+Iron Barbs.
I'll vote for Tentacruel because now we have a spinner with reliable healing (along with Starmie) and a nice way to punish physical attackers between the burn chance from Scald and Iron Barbs.
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I don't know why you are acting like 80% accuracy is the worst thing ever. Are you saying that Tyranitar is unreliable vs. Talonflame because its main way of killing it, Stone Edge, only has 80% accuracy? Also it can still kill things while unboosted.
252+ Atk Life Orb Hustle Zygarde Outrage vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Celebi: 351-413 (86.8 - 102.2%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
Are you really that scared of 80% accuracy?
Plus the Dragon Dance set isn't 'ruined' by Hustle, it would still be effective as Jolly at +1 outspeeds everything up to Scarf Kyurem-B, and you still hit very hard.
252+ Atk Life Orb Hustle Zygarde Outrage vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Celebi: 351-413 (86.8 - 102.2%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
Are you really that scared of 80% accuracy?
Plus the Dragon Dance set isn't 'ruined' by Hustle, it would still be effective as Jolly at +1 outspeeds everything up to Scarf Kyurem-B, and you still hit very hard.
The problem is that with Hustle even a move with 100% accuracy now is as "reliable" as Stone Edge which is called "Stone Miss" because 1 time every 5 misses the target and this scares me a little because Zygarde is not the fastest thing around with 95 base Spe in a set with Coil and without Dragon Dance ==> Hustle makes the dragon incosistent. If the accuracy issue would not be a problem, Hustle Durant should be OU only for its sheer power and speed which enables it to OHKO many things (IF hits) but the ant is not even ranked.
Ok, Zygarde can afford to miss once, but that 4x weakness to Ice makes it less consistent to take Ice moves than Hippowdon because the numerical bulk isn't everything. Some calcs:
252+ SpA Manaphy Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 112 SpD Hippowdon: 204-242 (48.5 - 57.6%) -- 52.3% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
This is mixed Hippowdon without a SpD enhancing nature without full EVs investment and with Leftovers.
252+ SpA Manaphy Ice Beam vs. 200 HP / 252+ SpD Zygarde: 272-320 (66.8 - 78.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
This is SubCoil Zygarde (set stolen from the calculator) with a SpD enhancing nature with almost full EVs investment in the bulk.
252+ SpA Manaphy Ice Beam vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Zygarde: 376-444 (105 - 124%) -- guaranteed OHKO
This is Coil Zygarde 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe with Adamant nature which is the pokemon everyone wants to use with Hustle (i read the calcs above my post).
===> while Zygarde can tank some neutral hits better than Hippowdon, it can't survive so easily from an Ice move landed on a free turn provided by a miss. Not only that, but Zygarde stacks a 4x weakness to Ice + a 2x weakness to Dragon while not having the same impact of Garchomp (Mega or not) or Landorus-T (Intimidate+Stealth Rock) ==> why using Zygarde over them?
Obviously, this is only my opinion.
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The difference is that Hustle Durant cannot afford to miss attacks. Zygarde can.
It is as bulky as friggin Hippowdon.
It is as bulky as friggin Hippowdon.
I mean srsly when is inaccuracy ever a major issue in determining viability? Tornadus-T still uses Hurricane over Air Slash; Volcarona still use Fire Blast; Starmie still uses Hydro Pump; Tyranitar still uses Stone Edge; Gengar still uses Focus Blast; Medicham still use ZHB over Psycho Cut for just a 10 BP worth of increase at the cost of 10% accuracy.
Let me remind you that you are getting a Choice Band worth of power. You can probably even get away with slapping a Wide Lens (lol) on it and still get a lot of output from it.
Let me remind you that you are getting a Choice Band worth of power. You can probably even get away with slapping a Wide Lens (lol) on it and still get a lot of output from it.
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