Partners in Crime

[G-Luke]

erm... Quick Guard?
Prankster seems like THE ability of the meta. But seriously adapt yourself.

Yes lets run quick guard on half of every team, cuz alot of Viable stuff learn quickguard.

 

[Akumeoy]

Like, I'm not gonna actively claim that Gale Wings is healthy for the meta, because for all I know it might be banworthy. But given that not a single game of PiC has been played, that would be a quickban. And frankly, the theorymon isn't quite strong enough for that. It conceivably could play out closer to how birdspam does in AAA -- handles a lot of offensive threats without flatly invalidating them, and manageable with some good resists and bulky mons. Let's just wait to find out before jumping to conclusions, eh?

252 Atk Tough Claws Mega Aerodactyl Brave Bird vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Cresselia: 166-196 (37.3 - 44.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

Yes lets run quick guard on half of every team, cuz alot of Viable stuff learn quickguard.

Scizor, Talonflame, Bisharp, Keldeo, Terrakion, Mega/Lucario, Mienshao, Escavalier, and Hitmontop all look pretty viable in one respect or another. My own birdspam team is even running Hariyama for Guts support. None (save Bisharp) are a fan of Flying-type moves, but Quick Guard should fix that up. I'm sure you could put together a birdspam-resilient team without Quick Guard even, if you really wanted to.

 

[Ghoul King]

I'm having difficulty imagining theorymonning justifying quickbanning Gale Wings while -atespeed is left intact.

You also don't need Quick Guard on "half" your team. One or two Pokemon is all you need, and the partner can use the move. Rock Slide is a great move in Doubles, too, and Gale Wings abusers hate being spammed by it.

How is Durant as a Partner? Hustle might sound bad but paired with....

Durant @ Life Orb
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Ability: Hustle
Jolly Nature
- X-Scissor
- Iron Head
- Protect
- Superpower

Hoopa-Unbound @ Life Orb
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpA / 252 Spe
Ability: Magician
Hasty Nature
- Hyperspace Fury
- Hyperspace Hole
- Energy Ball
- Drain Punch

Hustle Hyperspace Fury. Just remember that. Durant surprising brings enough physical attack coverage for Hoopa to abuse, so the other moves are to smack physical walls. This core hates priority, but Gale Wings, (and not Talonburd) probably will be banned so thats no big deal. But seriously ban Gale Wings.

Alternatively, you could do Hustle No Guard or Hustle Compound Eyes. Combine Durant with Golurk, and now you have an utterly monstrous Dynamic Punch coming off of Durant before most Pokemon can move, which won't miss. Or you could use Machamp if you want access to Knock Off, too. Lets you replace Superpower with, say, Rock Slide, since Dynamic Punch is way better than Superpower.

erm... Quick Guard?
Prankster seems like THE ability of the meta. But seriously adapt yourself.

One nice thing about Partners in Crime: Prankster Quick Guard without needing Meowstic-M. No longer do you have to fear faster Fake Out Pokemon using Fake Out on your Quick Guarder!

 

[forsureitsme]

- Hidden Power type is not shared

WAIT WAIT WAIT...

Keldeo
- HP Electric
- [HP Ice]

Thundurus
- HP Ice
- [HP Electric]

Wasn't it supposed to be like this?

 

[Quantum Tesseract]

he

WAIT WAIT WAIT...

Keldeo
- HP Electric
- [HP Ice]

Thundurus
- HP Ice
- [HP Electric]

Wasn't it supposed to be like this?

yes. He couldn't/hasn't programmed that yet.
Its PiC ALPHA.
He wouldn't have mentioned it if it worked how it was supposed too.

 

[AWailOfATail]

Yeah I thought HP type was supposed to be shared. Don't worry, it's been clarified, I was just confused.

 

[forsureitsme]

I would like to begin this post apologizing to AWailOfATail because I rewrote the whole thing LOL.

Here is the gist with the new codes:
https://gist.github.com/forsureitsme/443f91604a1c44abfbdd

What works:
- Move sharing. (AWailOfATail)
- Shared Hidden Power type. (AWailOfATail)
- PP deduction works. (forsureitsme) PP is deducted from the owner of the move, even if it switches out.
- That was just a misunderstanding. Even though your partner can teach you how to make a move, you just don't have his inner soul. Hidden Power is now just a move and the type comes from who is using it. (forsureitsme)

Things to do:
- Abilites: this seems pretty hard to code at first glance and we just didn't find a simple answer to it other than rewriting every ability WHICH IS INSANE.
- [WIP=forsureitsme] What happens if both Pokemon know the same move? It will only appear once.


Also, I have bad news for you:

What happens when your partner switches out?
You may not use a move of your partner when it switches out.

This isn't doable as this is client-side code. The way Pokemon Showdown was made doesn't allow this.
BUT, the good news is that it may work like this:

What happens when your partner faints?
(...)you can still use its move if you chose to use a move of your partner that particular turn(...)

EDIT:

What happens when you only have one Pokemon left?
Then you'll only have one ability in effect and only be able to use your own moves.

Didn't tested this, can someone confirm this is working with the new code?

 

[AWailOfATail]

I would like to begin this post apologizing to AWailOfATail because I rewrote the whole thing LOL.

In my defense I still have no clue what forEach does but it seems incredibly useful so I'll figure that out. I really do like the new code though and I'm happy you rewrote it; it's a lot cleaner than my mess it worked though so I was happy

Also I do have an idea for abilities that may or may not work that would involve essentially the same thing as moves, but the donor would essentially donate the ability's onTryHit, onBoost, and all the other possibilities. but from what I can see it screws up when there's two of the same category (both abilities have onTryHit) as I can't really find a way to store two functions in the same named value.

 

[forsureitsme]

If a move(let's take a Fire Blast for example) is repeated, there's 8 PP from the first and 8 PP from the second(usually called partner in this case) active pokemon.

Here are the ways to go Snaquaza:

The first pokemon can't see the partner move by having Fire Blast in it's own moveset. When his 8 PP is over, we can make the partner Fire Blast appear to the first pokemon.

Keep it the way it is now, with the move appearing twice, but it will be hard to know if it's your move(first pokemon) or partner move if both active pokemon have less than 4 moves, as both Fire Blast's will appear on the same line.

 

[CorruptedOmega]

Camerupt @ Cameruptite
Ability: Solid Rock
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpA
Quiet Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Eruption
- Earth Power
- After You
- Protect

Thundurus (M) @ Sitrus Berry
Ability: Prankster
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Thunderbolt
- Flash Cannon
- Taunt
- Protect

Since both mons have Prankster and After You, you can After You your own ally and give your self +1 priority on every one of your moves, while still bypassing Quick Guard. Then add an Amoonguss so you can cheese all of your opponents to death. Other notable After You users are Lopunny and Diancie.

On a completely unrelated note, my idea of banning RS was absolutely stupid in hindsight. If action needs to be taken, ban Serene Grace. Idk if its even ban worthy since everything will have priority anyways lol.

 

[Martin]

So i've been thinking about possible low-tier stuff which can pass cool things and I stumbled across this terror:

Kyurem-Black @ Life Orb
Ability: Teravolt
EVs: 252 Atk / some speed/bulk investment
Adamant Nature
- Return
- Roost
- Fusion Bolt
- Protect

Aurorus @ Chople Berry / Babiri Berry
Ability: Refrigerate
EVs: lazy
Adamant Nature
- Icy Wind
- Outrage
- Stone Edge / Rock Slide
- Earthquake

This is a neat lead core that functions by tearing stuff apart early game. You need to be wary of Intimidate, but adamant LO STAB refrigerate returns coming off of a base 170 attack stat will sting regardless. By spreading moves across the two Pokemon, I am able to maximise lead efficiency by having eight entirely differnt moves.

Pros: functions when paired

Cons: slightly dead weight when not paired. Bring backups for when it eventually goes pear-shaped.

Gimmicky but looks monstrous and fun.

 

[SpiderKoloPL]

Im really supriced... I didn't see this small combo yet:

Just Pangoro (Pangoro) @ Life Orb
Ability: Mold Breaker
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Taunt
- Parting Shot
- Drain Punch
- Gunk Shot / Quick Guard / Me First(?)

AND

Because (Liepard) @ Focus Sash
Ability: Prankster
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Fake Out
- Play Rough
- Knock Off
- Protect

OR

Gale Wings you say? (Thundurus) @ Life Orb
Ability: Prankster
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Knock Off
- Protect
- Wild Charge / Thunder Punch / Heal Block(?) / Other move
- Sky Drop

Let's see...
In Pangoro/Liepart combo we have that interesting combinations:
We have double Fake Out in first turn, and later Prankster Parting Shot and Taunt.
Prankster/Mold Breaker ignoring Magic Bounce, also Liepard is third the fastest natural user of Prankster.
Other really powerfull Coverage is Play Rought/Knock Off (Fairy/Dark) AND Drain Punch - again for more coverage AND healing option.
For Faries we have still Gunk Shot OR other good moves on difrent situations (Quick Guard against oposit Prankster combo is great, maybe Me First? I'm not sure how this move works with priority... when absolutly didn't work, still we have Quick Guard).
What is really funny: When we use double Parting Shot, first pokemon what use this move is Liepart. Second pokemon in Prankster priority (but what didn't lose Mold Breaker) is Pangoro.
What means: We have Double Prankster and Double Mold Breaker Parting Shot, what can nearly Safety (Contrary, Clear Body, Defiant/Competetive or Gale Wings can block this move) give option for swith on defencive core OR bulky sweapers.
Aslo, because Party Shot is a Sound Base move, ignore oposit Substitute. Also, Soundproof is something, what destroy this strategy.

In Pangoro/Thundurus combo also we have interesting moves:
We lose double Fake out and Play Rought, what is really good for coverage (Dark/Fairy is really good combination, why we didn't have Fairy/Dark pokemon yet?), but we gain Sky drop and one more optional move.
Sky Drop buy one more turn for us. Pangoro can use in this situation Prankster Party Shot, or Prankster Taunt, against second pokemon for total shotdown (Maybe just protect in some situations).
When we expected Skill Swap Shadow Tag and Truant/Slow Start/Other bad ability combo, we can just use Protect in this very important turn for oponent. Like in Liepart/Pangoro combo, because we still have Protect.
Thundurus have much better stats than Liepart, But didn't offer Fake out and Play Rought.
And here I don't know what four move can be on Thundurus:
Electric move is great for ofensive plays, also give some coverage against not immunity for electric pokemons, but we can meet also pokemons with a lot of healing moves. For that situation nice is Heal Block, but that move is good only against Drain Punch/Ofensive Healing Moves users or pasive healing from Poison Heal/Leftovers. Didn't stop other status...



How about this sets? :D Can be usefull?

EDIT 1:

I have another, mega idea for good pokemons combo:

Milotic (F) @ Leftovers
Ability: Marvel Scale
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Coil
- Aqua Tail
- Facade
- Iron Tail

Gliscor (M) @ Leftovers
Ability: Poison Heal
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 252 HP / 184 SpD / 72 Spe
Careful Nature
- Toxic
- Roost / Protect
- Substitute
- Knock Off

This is one off this rare moment, where Shiny pokemons are really good looks in coop: "golden" elements on Gliscor and "golden" tail on Milotic is perfect also with blue skin on Gliscor and also blue "hairs" on Milotic. Normaly I didn't like using Shiny, but here... is just perfect.
But about strategy:
Poison Heal/Marvel Scale combo...
First free turn set up poison in both pokemons (Milotic use toxic on Gliscor and Gliscor make the same think on Milotic).
This toxic activate AND Poison heal, AND Marvel Scale.
And because of that, Milotic (or Gliscor) can start set up Coil. More defense, atack and Accuracy.
Roost for healing both of them, Sub for add more potencialy max HP (from 100% into 125%).
Protect - another great status helper.
Gliscor didn't have Flying and Ground moves, because he give a lot of usefull status moves for Milotic (Roost / Protect, Substitute, Toxic) and give also really usefull Knock Off...
Also from EQ just Milotic take more damage.
I much prefer for using Milotic for sweeping, because she has nearly all atacking moves.

How about this? Can be in this meta effective?

 

[CorruptedOmega]

^
The first set is p interesting. You should prolly change Play Rough to Encore on Liepard. That way you can lock in mons using Fake Out and stuff. Non-STAB Play Rough is p weak anyways. You'll definitely want Quick Guard on Pangoro to block Prankster Spore spam and Gale Wings and stuff. Your Thundurus set is completely un-viable. You should change to a special attacking set with Thunderbolt, Flash Cannon, HP Ice, and Protect. The second set of Gliscor and Milotic gets bodied by Ludicolo, Amoonguss+Thundurus, and wall-breakers in general. Generally set-up oriented sets just doesn't work in doubles unless its an Azumarill lol.

 

[SpiderKoloPL]

^
The first set is p interesting. You should prolly change Play Rough to Encore on Liepard. That way you can lock in mons using Fake Out and stuff. Non-STAB Play Rough is p weak anyways. You'll definitely want Quick Guard on Pangoro to block Prankster Spore spam and Gale Wings and stuff. Your Thundurus set is completely un-viable. You should change to a special attacking set with Thunderbolt, Flash Cannon, HP Ice, and Protect.

Well... I think in this prankster combo, much more I prefer Liepart/Pangoro.
But one, stronger fairy atack can just destroy really easy...
Maybe not Liepart with sash, but Pangoro have Life Orb instead...
One really huge problem with Pangoro: He is too slow. In trick room is nice, but I can't in this case use fast prankster.
Maybe Copy Cat/Encore is better here than Play Rought...

^
The second set of Gliscor and Milotic gets bodied by Ludicolo, Amoonguss+Thundurus, and wall-breakers in general. Generally set-up oriented sets just doesn't work in doubles unless its an Azumarill lol.

Thats really sad... I have one good set-up with difrent set in other meta, but where also I tried poison my own Gliscor from... Gliscor.
Yes, without Poison Orb I poison my own Gliscor...
Thanks for Magic Coat Porygon 2. Just I use Magic Coat for protecting from status AND in the same turn use against him Toxic (what I miss in first try - of corse). Magic Coat just bounce back into Gliscor.

HERE link into this battle.

Anyway - Thanks for protip. :)

 

[Martin]

Pinsir @ Pinsirite
Ability: Hyper Cutter
EVs: 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Adamant / Jolly Nature
- Protect
- Feint
- Return
- Close Combat

Landorus @ Life Orb / Choice Scarf / Choice Band / Yache Berry / Passho Berry
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Earthquake
- Stone Edge / Rock Slide
- Swords Dance / U-turn / Rock Slide / Protect
- Explosion

Mega Pinsir isn't that good in standard dubs for a number of reasons. However, here it's ability to pass Aerilate to stuff is coveted, as the only other potential passer (Mega Salamence) is banned under the doubles ruleset. Aerilate Lando-T is a genuine terror to behold, and its access to STAB Aerilate Explosion (after STAB, Aerilate and the damage reduction due to spread damage, the move hits a staggering 365.625 BP) coming off of a base 145 attack - with a potential LO or CB boost to boot - just makes it all the more terrifying to take on.

To put the sheer power of this into perspective, this is a how much it does to Aegislash-Shield (the most physically bulky flying resist that you're likely to see on a bog-standard doubles squad):

252+ Atk Life Orb Aerilate Landorus-T Explosion vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Aegislash-Shield: 214-253 (66 - 78%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

Of course, you wouldn't ever realistically use it against an Aegislash due to the potential for both King's Shield and Wide Guard as well as due to the fact that EQ is almost always a better option in this scenario. However, this is a resisted hit against a max HP 'mon with 60/150 defenses, so good luck taking that if you don't resist flying.

Pinsir's access to Hyper Cutter pre-mega is also situationally useful, as it means you can lead off with this and play mindgames with your M-Evo timing to avoid Intimidate shuffling while also blocking the common Intimidate leads that you see being used. In contrast, Lando shares Intimidate with Pinsir - allowing you to punish physical attackers who opt to lead (while in theory Bisharp is a good stop to this, you can play mindgames with Feint's extremely high priority and CC/EQ to push your way past it using 50:50s).

 

[CorruptedOmega]

I was wondering how the coding is coming along for this? I'm looking forward to playing it very much and am sending my encouragement to whoever's working on it. Take all the time you need :)

Anyways, a core:

Diancie @ Diancite
Ability: Clear Body
EVs: 56 Atk / 200 SpA / 252 Spe
Hasty Nature
IVs: 30 Atk / 30 Def
- Moonblast
- Diamond Storm
- Substitute
- Protect

Landorus (M) @ Life Orb
Ability: Sheer Force
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Earth Power
- Sludge Bomb / Psychic
- Hidden Power [Ice]
- Protect

Perfect coverage. Also Sheer Force Diancie. The IVs on Diancie let it use HP Ice from Landorus. I decided Sub on Diancie since along side Landorus it gets all the coverage it needs. The core gets bopped by Rain and Sand so you better bring Amoonguss + Thundurus :>)

 

[Kristoph gavin]

I haven't taken a very good look at this thread as a whole yet, but I must say that this is indeed a very nifty idea with a lot of ideas, compatibilities and synergies that Pokémon can share with eachother. For example, double Fake Out could shut down entire setups (well, for one turn anyway), considering that the opponents aren't running ExtremeSpeed or fast Pranksters. I have a few ideas that might be already in use (which is no surprise, seeing as how they could work out pretty well), but I digress. Dual Pranksters, as I mentioned before, is probably also something that would be a big threat for a team. But then again, that must also be discussed many times. Someone who could setup and someone to cover the setup Pokémon with offensive capabilities would be good, since they could share their moves to become a whole, so to say.

That being said, Aurorus or Glalie-Mega paired with Kyurem-B would be a probable danger. Refrigerate Return? Not too pleasant to be on the receiving end of.

Oh, and also; this is my very first post on the Smogon forums. It's nice to meet you all.

 

[CorruptedOmega]

I've been seeing this as a recurring topic, so I thought I might give my two cents about it.

I think that in general strategies centered around "-ate" abilities (Aerialate, Pixilate, etc.) will not be good. The problem is that the strategy relies on having two mons on the field at the exact same time, and if the mons are supposed to take advantage of the -ate ability, they will likely share a similar typing, thus leaving them vulnerable to a switch-in that could drop either (or both) of them. Here's an example. I send out Mega Glalie and Kyurem-Black. My opponent could easily lead Tyranitar or Landorus-Therian and right off the bat have a huge advantage. Furthermore, -ate abilities have pretty shitty distribution. 6 out of eight of them are megas and one of them is Aurorus (lol). The most viable one of them, Sylveon, can't really pass Pixlate to a whole lot of things because there are few Fairy-type physical attackers (Diancie is p much the only one). So if you end up wanting to use an -ate centered strategy, you likely already have your mega slot taken. This limits teambuilding pretty substantially.

So yeah.

 

[Kristoph gavin]

True, true; but then again it was only an idea. As I mentioned before mentioning the strategy of a Refrigerate set, some prominent strategies would be running a dual Prankster set to set up. The only thing that could really counter it would be priority Taunt, ExtremeSpeed or anything like Magic Coat (or Magic Bounce, that could also work out on two Pokémon to COMPLETELY shut down status or hazards.) Speed would play an important role in this because dual Fake Out sets could also be ran to counter Prankster sets (but the turn after, they can just do what they want), and speed decides which priority user gets to go first. So setting up is also of importance. Running dual Levitate would make sure that you won't get damaged by most hazards, like Toxic Spikes, Spikes, etc. (with the exception of Stealth Rock), and then again you got defoggers if you're really not up to dealing with hazards like SR. In general, -ate sets would have their own niché and have their own usage. Not that it'll be used that much, but I digress.

 

[Ghoul King]

I haven't taken a very good look at this thread as a whole yet, but I must say that this is indeed a very nifty idea with a lot of ideas, compatibilities and synergies that Pokémon can share with eachother. For example, double Fake Out could shut down entire setups (well, for one turn anyway), considering that the opponents aren't running ExtremeSpeed or fast Pranksters.

Fake Out out-prioritizes Extreme Speed and pretty much any relevant Prankster move. Only Prankster Quick Guard is a noteworthy exception.

That being said, Aurorus or Glalie-Mega paired with Kyurem-B would be a probable danger. Refrigerate Return? Not too pleasant to be on the receiving end of.

I kind of doubt that Kyurem-Black will be a danger on that basis. There's tons of things it gains access to that are potentially scary, but Refrigerate Return requires too much cost to set up with too little payoff -you're better off trying to set up -atespeed or similar if you're going to try to abuse an -ate effect.

Oh, and also; this is my very first post on the Smogon forums. It's nice to meet you all.

Hi! Welcome to the OM community!

True, true; but then again it was only an idea. As I mentioned before mentioning the strategy of a Refrigerate set, some prominent strategies would be running a dual Prankster set to set up. The only thing that could really counter it would be priority Taunt, ExtremeSpeed or anything like Magic Coat (or Magic Bounce, that could also work out on two Pokémon to COMPLETELY shut down status or hazards.) Speed would play an important role in this because dual Fake Out sets could also be ran to counter Prankster sets (but the turn after, they can just do what they want), and speed decides which priority user gets to go first. So setting up is also of importance. Running dual Levitate would make sure that you won't get damaged by most hazards, like Toxic Spikes, Spikes, etc. (with the exception of Stealth Rock), and then again you got defoggers if you're really not up to dealing with hazards like SR. In general, -ate sets would have their own niché and have their own usage. Not that it'll be used that much, but I digress.

I'm not sure why you think dual Prankster is going to be so huge, honestly. Everything with Prankster is fragile, making them a bit of a weak link, and any move that doesn't already have priority will still be outsped by Extreme Speed, and most effects that benefit from Prankster just aren't as useful in a Doubles context as a Singles context -ie priority recovery just isn't as amazing when enemies can gang up on you.

Hazards are also underwhelming in Doubles. Don't get me wrong, Stealth Rock is carried on most teams in Doubles and Sticky Web is actually arguably more useful in Doubles than in Singles, but switching just isn't as common in Doubles. Here it'll probably be more common, since you get stuff like switching in an Unaware Pokemon makes the other Pokemon also Unaware, but Partners in Crimes will probably still be less switch-based than Standard Singles, making entry hazards less useful.

 

[CorruptedOmega]

Hazards are also underwhelming in Doubles. Don't get me wrong, Stealth Rock is carried on most teams in Doubles and Sticky Web is actually arguably more useful in Doubles than in Singles, but switching just isn't as common in Doubles. Here it'll probably be more common, since you get stuff like switching in an Unaware Pokemon makes the other Pokemon also Unaware, but Partners in Crimes will probably still be less switch-based than Standard Singles, making entry hazards less useful.

I'm sorry to be so blunt, but have you ever played Doubles at a competitive level? I have seen Sticky Web on one team, and it was a complete joke team that has seen no success in tournaments. Stealth Rocks see a tiny bit more usage, but again very little at high level tournament play (eg SPL, Seasonals, etc). Also, switching is very common in Doubles, more so than in Singles. Positional play is completely dependent on switching and sacking, and is essential to comeback from a losing position. Please do not post misleading responses in this thread if you do not fully understand the basic concepts of regular Doubles, much less a far more advanced OM based upon it.

yeah also, prankster is going to be ridiculously good. Extreme speed on the other hand has shitty distribution and I doubt it will be much good since most mons that learn it are not v viable

 

[Ghoul King]

I'm sorry to be so blunt, but have you ever played Doubles at a competitive level? I have seen Sticky Web on one team, and it was a complete joke team that has seen no success in tournaments. Stealth Rocks see a tiny bit more usage, but again very little at high level tournament play (eg SPL, Seasonals, etc). Also, switching is very common in Doubles, more so than in Singles. Positional play is completely dependent on switching and sacking, and is essential to comeback from a losing position. Please do not post misleading responses in this thread if you do not fully understand the basic concepts of regular Doubles, much less a far more advanced OM based upon it.

yeah also, prankster is going to be ridiculously good. Extreme speed on the other hand has such shitty distribution that I doubt it will be much good since most mons that learn it are not v viable

I played Doubles incessantly for more than six months before I got into OMs. Sticky Web and Stealth Rock are substantially less viable than in Singles, yes, but they remain far more relevant than Spikes or Toxic Spikes -Doubles is fast-paced and clearing hazards is not necessarily practical, so Sticky Web can give your entire team the Speed advantage (Speed control is in general strongly relevant to Doubles) while Stealth Rock remains useful for breaking Sashes and Sturdy and also for punishing certain relevant threats. (eg halving Mega Charizard Y's HP if it doesn't lead)

Switching is far less common in Doubles than in Singles, because play is not based on a single Pokemon matched up against a single Pokemon. In Singles you can fearlessly switch Skarmory into any number of Pokemon because they simply will not be able to do anything that matters to it, and so only a double switch is a concern. In Doubles this is not true at all, and people will not spend endless turns switching around in circles trying to maneuver for advantage because double attacking is so lethal, where such switch cycles can and do occur regularly in Singles matches -sometimes even when it's two HO teams facing off!

So I have no earthly idea why you think it's disputable that switching is less common in Doubles than in Singles. Just the fact that Singles matches can go on for 100+ turns while Doubles matches have seriously dragged on if you're at 30+ alone means punishing switching is less useful in Doubles than in Singles. Citing the use of "saccing" is particularly mindboggling to me -yes, good use of a switching is relevant to Doubles, but using a sacrifice is an example of switching being less common. Every sacrifice is a hit against your ability to switch in the future! In Singles sacrifices generally occur when you're seriously backed into a corner -in Doubles they can border on routine, thanks to the offensive pressure the format innately brings to bear.

Prankster isn't strongly relevant in regular Doubles -Whimsicott's most relevant use in Doubles is Terracott- so I don't see any reason why that would change here. Extreme Speed meanwhile has bad distribution but is found on some powerful Pokemon -and in particular Dragonite itself loves Flying Extreme Speed, so it pairs beautifully with Mega Pinsir. Since hazards are less reliable in Doubles and anyway you'd probably lead with the pair, Dragonite's Multiscale gets to put in work. The only flaw of any real note with this is the weakness to Rock they both share, which Partners in Crime doesn't really do anything in particular to exacerbate. (It's not like Serene Grace Rock Slide is super-relevant when you outprioritize the target)

 

[CorruptedOmega]

You are missing my point. Entry hazards are almost entirely unviable in Doubles, except for the ever rare Stealth Rocks. You claimed earlier that they are seen on at least every team, which is just completely untrue. Stealth Rocks is beneficial only if your opponent has a double Rock weak mom like Charizard or Talonflame or a Sashed mon. Otherwise they're completely useless. Also:

/ds sticky web, all:
Ariados, Galvantula, Kricketune, Leavanny, Masquerain, Sewaddle, Shuckle, Smeargle, Spinarak, Surskit, Swadloon

Unfortunately, every single Sticky Web user resides in Doubles NU.

Earlier I should not have said that switching is "more common than in singles", I should have said there is a greater importance placed on switching in Doubles because using positional play it easier to come back from a losing situation than in Singles.

But then again, why compare Singles to Doubles, cause what the hell does it matter anyways? This is a OM based on Doubles.

Prankster Spore is gonna be everywhere buddy. Also Dragonite is weak af, and at one point had an entirely separate section for itself in the viability rankings under "tier please don't". If you'd like to learn more about Dragonite in Doubles, you should read it's dex entry on Smogon.

Dude also I just posted on how -ate abilities are gonna be bad.

 

[Ghoul King]

You are missing my point. Entry hazards are almost entirely unviable in Doubles, except for the ever rare Stealth Rocks. You claimed earlier that they are seen on at least every team, which is just completely untrue. Stealth Rocks is beneficial only if your opponent has a double Rock weak mom like Charizard or Talonflame or a Sashed mon. Otherwise they're completely useless.

Given Sash is strongly viable in Doubles, Stealth Rock is quite useful. Mega Charizard Y was, at least back before ORAS, one of the most popular Megas on the ladder -I think it was the most popular Mega, but I could be misremembering. Talonflame was plenty popular too. (EDIT: Checked current Viability Rankings: they're both in the highest tier)

So... everything you just said reinforces my claim?

Also why is it so hard to find usage stats for Doubles? I'd wanted to look up actual Stealth Rock usage numbers...

/ds sticky web, all:
Ariados, Galvantula, Kricketune, Leavanny, Masquerain, Sewaddle, Shuckle, Smeargle, Spinarak, Surskit, Swadloon

Unfortunately, every single Sticky Web user resides in Doubles NU.

And? Still better than Spikes and Toxic Spikes in Doubles utility. You know, the thing I said in the first place?

It's not like you're trying to argue that Spikes and Toxic Spikes are more useful than Sticky Web in Doubles. You're just saying all entry hazards are bad. And? This contradicts my point how?

Earlier I should not have said that switching is "more common than in singles", I should have said there is a greater importance placed on switching in Doubles because using positional play it easier to come back from a losing situation than in Singles.

You were speaking in response to the idea of Stealth Rock's utility in Doubles. The important part about switching in relation to Stealth Rock is how often it happens, how much damage Stealth Rock racks up, how much pressure it adds as a result. "Positional play", regardless of whether you are correct about it making switching more important or not, is irrelevant to the Stealth Rock point.

So you're saying this stuff to accomplish... what, exactly?

But then again, why compare Singles to Doubles, cause what the hell does it matter anyways? This is a OM based on Doubles.

... because a lot of people's expectations of utility are rooted in their Singles experience? Comparisons are inevitable.

Prankster Spore is gonna be everywhere buddy. Also Dragonite is weak af, and at one point had an entirely separate section for itself in the viability rankings under "tier please don't". If you'd like to learn more about Dragonite in Doubles, you should read it's dex entry on Smogon.

Oh, I see, -atespeed will be bad because it requires two reasonably specific Pokemon work in tandem, but Prankster Spore won't be bad because... wait for it... waaaait for it...

... oh, wait, what's the difference again? There isn't one.

"Extreme Speed has bad distribution!"

Spore has worse distribution, and in particular isn't found on any pseudo-legendary BST-tier Pokemon. (Amoonguss' 464 is as high as it gets, and it's not exactly optimally distributed either) Extreme Speed is found on multiple Pokemon with good-to-great statlines.

"-ate Abilities have poor distribution!"

Prankster isn't much better (Less reliant on Megas, sure, but that's it), and most everything that has it has, again, a fairly poor BST. Thundurus and Tornadus excepted, of course, but Tornadus is just a bad Thundurus 99% of the time, and Thundurus is still fragile, making it easy to tear it apart with Fake Out and Extreme Speed, and anyway Lum Berry is one of Dragonite's default items in Doubles anyway. (The other being Weakness Policy) Wooo, you put Dragonite to Sleep -and then it instantly woke up and killed you. You certainly can't produce undying Prankster-healing walls.

So explain to me again why you're convinced -atespeed will be bad using logic that would obviously assume Prankster Spore is bad while nonetheless insisting Prankster Spore will be "everywhere"? Let's not even get into the fact that Mega Pinsir+Dragonite gets to outprioritize and kill your Spore provider, no matter its species. Oh, and Mega Pinsir gets Feint, so don't be thinking Protect means your Spore provider is safe while Thundurus drops a Spore, able to survive thanks to its resistance to Flying.

Dude also I just posted on how -ate abilities are gonna be bad.

Your opinion is not a fact, and your logic is questionable. Poor distribution does not make something meta-irrelevant -otherwise every single Mega would be meta-irrelevant, since by definition any given team can only run one Mega, making the Mega slot hotly competed for. Nonetheless, multiple Megas are sitting firmly in OU, several of them clearly entirely on the basis of the Mega itself. (That is, the base species is not remotely OU)

Mega Pinsir+Dragonite is scary and strong, and neither Pokemon is a dumb, unusable gimmick by itself, separated from the other. Mega Pinsir is still strong and fast with good coverage, and Dragonite is still donating Multiscale to any ally that comes in, dramatically boosting their longevity. Extreme Speed is still stronger than any other priority move in the game bar Sucker Punch when equally effective, even if you have STAB on Aqua Jet or whatever and not Extreme Speed, so it's still usable for other Pokemon, even if no -ate effect is in play. Producing Flying -atespeed is not dependent on combining two questionable Pokemon whom are completely useless/highly questionable outside of that combination.

You're also ignoring the ways in which the meta changes things. Sure, awesome, Dragonite is shit in Doubles -I already knew it was uncommon, unpopular in Doubles. That doesn't automatically mean it'll be shit here, where it gets to spread Multiscale and Extreme Speed to other Pokemon, where its exceptional movepool may be highly relevant for donating, where it gets to benefit from other Pokemon providing it Flying STAB and otherwise manage its flaws.

 

[CorruptedOmega]

Alright. Let's assume you're right about everything concerning regular Doubles (although you presumably haven't played a lot of ORAS Doubles since you cite your "facts" from XY Doubles only), cause idrc and it has little relevance to this thread anyways since this thread is about a drastically different metagame than either ORAS or XY Doubles. I will address your argument concerning PiC directly.

Oh, I see, -atespeed will be bad because it requires two reasonably specific Pokemon work in tandem, but Prankster Spore won't be bad because... wait for it... waaaait for it...

... oh, wait, what's the difference again? There isn't one.

"Extreme Speed has bad distribution!"

Spore has worse distribution, and in particular isn't found on any pseudo-legendary BST-tier Pokemon. (Amoonguss' 464 is as high as it gets, and it's not exactly optimally distributed either) Extreme Speed is found on multiple Pokemon with good-to-great statlines.

"-ate Abilities have poor distribution!"

Prankster isn't much better (Less reliant on Megas, sure, but that's it), and most everything that has it has, again, a fairly poor BST. Thundurus and Tornadus excepted, of course, but Tornadus is just a bad Thundurus 99% of the time, and Thundurus is still fragile, making it easy to tear it apart with Fake Out and Extreme Speed, and anyway Lum Berry is one of Dragonite's default items in Doubles anyway. (The other being Weakness Policy) Wooo, you put Dragonite to Sleep -and then it instantly woke up and killed you. You certainly can't produce undying Prankster-healing walls.

So explain to me again why you're convinced -atespeed will be bad using logic that would obviously assume Prankster Spore is bad while nonetheless insisting Prankster Spore will be "everywhere"? Let's not even get into the fact that Mega Pinsir+Dragonite gets to outprioritize and kill your Spore provider, no matter its species. Oh, and Mega Pinsir gets Feint, so don't be thinking Protect means your Spore provider is safe while Thundurus drops a Spore, able to survive thanks to its resistance to Flying.



Your opinion is not a fact, and your logic is questionable. Poor distribution does not make something meta-irrelevant -otherwise every single Mega would be meta-irrelevant, since by definition any given team can only run one Mega, making the Mega slot hotly competed for. Nonetheless, multiple Megas are sitting firmly in OU, several of them clearly entirely on the basis of the Mega itself. (That is, the base species is not remotely OU)

Mega Pinsir+Dragonite is scary and strong, and neither Pokemon is a dumb, unusable gimmick by itself, separated from the other. Mega Pinsir is still strong and fast with good coverage, and Dragonite is still donating Multiscale to any ally that comes in, dramatically boosting their longevity. Extreme Speed is still stronger than any other priority move in the game bar Sucker Punch when equally effective, even if you have STAB on Aqua Jet or whatever and not Extreme Speed, so it's still usable for other Pokemon, even if no -ate effect is in play. Producing Flying -atespeed is not dependent on combining two questionable Pokemon whom are completely useless/highly questionable outside of that combination.

You're also ignoring the ways in which the meta changes things. Sure, awesome, Dragonite is shit in Doubles -I already knew it was uncommon, unpopular in Doubles. That doesn't automatically mean it'll be shit here, where it gets to spread Multiscale and Extreme Speed to other Pokemon, where its exceptional movepool may be highly relevant for donating, where it gets to benefit from other Pokemon providing it Flying STAB and otherwise manage its flaws.

Prankster Spore allows you to disable both opposing mons with +1 priority. Aerialate ExtremeSpeed provides a powerful +2 priority Flying STAB. Prankster Spore has far more utility and is applicable in many different situations, basically every situations unless your opponent is running Magic Bounce, Quick Guard, or Goggles. Even then Thundurus can dish out big damage, OHKOing Mega Diancie with Flash Cannon (the only actually viable Magic Bounce user) and Keldeo and Talonflame with Thunderbolt (the most viable Quick Guard users). Meanwhile Dragonite and Pinsir get bopped by Tyranitar, Diancie, Aegislash, Heatran, and others. Amoonguss is tier 1 on the viability rankings and Thundurus is tier 1.5, so I don't understand why you are saying that Spore and Prankster get poor distribution. Amoonguss and Thundurus are both pretty fantastic mons.

My post on -ate abilities was a generalization, I didn't say that every single -ate user is gonna be awful. Pinsir and Dragonite might certainly be decent or even good, but not excellent. They still run into the problem of having a shared typing, only work when on the field at the same time, and your mega slot is taken up when you could be using something like Diancie, Metagross, or p much any other mega that is more widely applicable and not restrained by the above reasons.