Peakmons v2.0

[xDesch]

Assist could (in gen5) call forth moves like Fly, Dive, Dig, Shadow Force, etc. and Whirlwind and Roar.

 

[Ghoul King]

More tidbits I never knew: Hidden Power is unaffected by Normalize! Weird, and something worth keeping in mind in a few different OMs, such as AAA. Weather Ball is also immune to Normalize, as is Judgment and Natural Gift. That's neat! Aromatherapy triggers Sap Sipper, by the way. Did you know Sticky Hold doesn't prevent Knock Off from getting its 50% damage bonus? Assurance also counts the target suffering recoil damage, including Life Orb damage! Did you know Dragon Rush is one of those moves that punishes Minimize? Yes, that's right, you can get a 200 BP attack onto a Minimizing opponent that way, reliably. Neat.

Gen II-introduced Moves

-Encore lasts, in Platinum, Heartgold, and Soulsilver, 3-7 turns (It lasts 2-6 prior to that, and exactly 3 turns after this)

-Flail's BP formula was slightly more generous originally (link), though the difference is slight, with for instance the 200 BP range having been up to 4% originally, rather than up to 3% as it is now. Weirdly, this does not seem to apply to Reversal.

-Protect and Detect have, in Generation IV, a minimum success rate of 12.5% (They were supposed to do this in Gen III, but it's bizarre and glitchy there)

-In the Japanese version of Diamond and Pearl, Pursuit triggering its pursuing effect while under the effect of a Choice item will not lock the holder into Pursuit. No, seriously.

---

I could've sworn weather-affected healing moves restored HP by 75% in Sun in Gen II, but I haven't been able to find confirmation of this point...

---

Gen III-introduced moves

-Brick Break would originally break Reflect and Light Screen even if the target was a Ghost

-In Gen IV, Recycle can restore items lost to Pluck or Bug Bite

-Taunt: I'd leave it at 3 turns, because its alternatives are 2 turns (Worse) and 2-4 turns (On average, the same)

---

Gen IV-introduced moves

-Fire Fang bypasses Wonder Guard for no discernible reason in Gen IV (ie Wondertomb is not protected from Fire Fang -but it is protected from Thunderfang and Ice Fang)

-Fling can be used by a Klutz in Gen IV

---

I'll get to Gen V moves tomorrow. Maybe start on Abilities then, though for the most part they've tended to be upgraded anyway.

 

[TotalAsteroid]

Don't forget that Sub blocked sound moves before gen 6.
No moves from gen 5 were nerfed beside Sky Drop, but that's not important unless doubles start.
Steamroller does a Dragon Rush

All gen 1:
Critical hits were based off of speed. I'm pretty sure that's a buff.
Stat-boosting moves remove status nerf, such as using swords dance would negate the attack drop from burn and give you the boost
If a multi-hit move crits, they all crit.
If flying or underground and are fully paralyzed, you stay invincible
Trapping moves lol, and they still trap the opponent if they switch out
Sleep takes a full turn to wake up
Counter+Mirror Coat are triggered by moves that hit subs and can crit, but only ignores the opponent's defense stats.
Critical hits were intended to multiply the critical hit ratio by 4, but if you want to get technical, it unintentionally divided it by 4
Although this isn't a buff to a move/ability, but PLEASE DONT BRING BACK THE OLD SPECIAL STAT!!!!!!!

 

[Ghoul King]

Don't forget that Sub blocked sound moves before gen 6.
No moves from gen 5 were nerfed beside Sky Drop, but that's not important unless doubles start.
Steamroller does a Dragon Rush

All gen 1:
Critical hits were based off of speed. I'm pretty sure that's a buff.
Stat-boosting moves remove status nerf, such as using swords dance would negate the attack drop from burn and give you the boost
If a multi-hit move crits, they all crit.
If flying or underground and are fully paralyzed, you stay invincible
Trapping moves lol, and they still trap the opponent if they switch out
Sleep takes a full turn to wake up
Counter+Mirror Coat are triggered by moves that hit subs and can crit, but only ignores the opponent's defense stats.
Critical hits were intended to multiply the critical hit ratio by 4, but if you want to get technical, it unintentionally divided it by 4
Although this isn't a buff to a move/ability, but PLEASE DONT BRING BACK THE OLD SPECIAL STAT!!!!!!!

Multi-hit moves being all-crit was also multi-hit moves being no-crit if they missed on the first one. Modern mult-hit moves have higher average damage than they did in Gen I just because they often crit and get a small boost. Honestly, most of this has either been covered or isn't a clear improvement, or is a case of conflict: making Substitutes block Sound moves again is a downgrade to those moves.

---

... I am surprised to discover that Effect Spore is slightly weighted toward Sleep and away from Poison. Huh.

More stuff.

-Irrelevant to Singles, but Follow Me and Rage Powder were both originally +3 priority, rather than +2

... that's it for anything to do with Gen V moves that hasn't already been covered, and it involves me also forgetting to cover Follow Me before.

---

Abilities!

-Prior to Gen V, Own Tempo would instantly cure Baton Passed Confusion, rather than waiting until the Pokemon took a turn to cure it

-Self-Destruct and Explosion originally triggered Anticipation

-Magic Guard originally prevented Toxic Spikes from Poisoning the Pokemon

-Multitype originally prevented item manipulation effects, period, rather than only preventing them if a Plate is held

-Simple originally doubled the effects of stat modifications, rather than doubling the stat modifications themselves: this allowed you to Baton Pass stat changes to a Simple user more effectively, made copying the effects via Psych Up less effective, etc... on the other hand, the modern behavior plays better with Stored Power, among other examples. The point can be debated.

... that's all that's been missed by other people.

I guess next is... items? See if anything was missed in that regard?

 

[p2]

• Freeze will only thaw if a Fire-type move is used against the frozen Pokemon. [Generation One]

Haze also unthaws frozen Pokemon in gen 1

edit: yeah im dumb

 

[Throbulator36]

Don't forget that Sub blocked sound moves before gen 6.
No moves from gen 5 were nerfed beside Sky Drop, but that's not important unless doubles start.
Steamroller does a Dragon Rush

All gen 1:
Critical hits were based off of speed. I'm pretty sure that's a buff.
Stat-boosting moves remove status nerf, such as using swords dance would negate the attack drop from burn and give you the boost
If a multi-hit move crits, they all crit.
If flying or underground and are fully paralyzed, you stay invincible
Trapping moves lol, and they still trap the opponent if they switch out
Sleep takes a full turn to wake up
Counter+Mirror Coat are triggered by moves that hit subs and can crit, but only ignores the opponent's defense stats.
Critical hits were intended to multiply the critical hit ratio by 4, but if you want to get technical, it unintentionally divided it by 4
Although this isn't a buff to a move/ability, but PLEASE DONT BRING BACK THE OLD SPECIAL STAT!!!!!!!

That would also be directly nerfing sound-based moves

 

[TotalAsteroid]

• Freeze will only thaw if a Fire-type move is used against the frozen Pokemon. [Generation One]

Haze also unthaws frozen Pokemon in gen 1

That would be a nerf to freeze

Also, Gems

 

[Efferalgan]

Also do the hidden powers "peak" as a base 70 move? Or are they base 60 to accommodate tehnician users?

In Gens II to V, the power was not fixed, and could be anything from 31 to 70. I believe that is actually Hidden Power's peak, since you could choose to lower the power of your HP to 60 in order to get the Technician boost.

 

[thdhted]

In gen 1, a burn's attack drop and paralysis's speed drop would stay even if the user was cured, until it switched out. This is justifiable due to the massive buff that rest got anyways.
Using Agility or Swords Dance while paralyzed or burned, respectively, would negate the status impairments from those effects and then double the enhanced stat. (Gen 1) Though this could be seen as a nerf to the statuses.

 

[Ghoul King]

In gen 1, a burn's attack drop and paralysis's speed drop would stay even if the user was cured, until it switched out. This is justifiable due to the massive buff that rest got anyways.
Using Agility or Swords Dance while paralyzed or burned, respectively, would negate the status impairments from those effects and then double the enhanced stat. (Gen 1) Though this could be seen as a nerf to the statuses.

If you want to go there, it's also the case that their reductions were re-applied under way too many circumstances.

For instance: Burn the enemy. Use Swords Dance. Their Attack is now 1/4th base.

I forget the full list and don't feel like going digging it up now -frankly I'd hate to bring the entire thing into Peakmons anyway- but Gen I is a weird glitchy nightmare.

In Gens II to V, the power was not fixed, and could be anything from 31 to 70. I believe that is actually Hidden Power's peak, since you could choose to lower the power of your HP to 60 in order to get the Technician boost.

I'm not going to wade through the math right now, but there's a question of mechanics: if it's possible to get any (Valid) Hidden Power at 60 (Or more) BP with the same sort of nearly maxed out IVs that are possible in Gen VI, then yeah, I'd agree. If there's even a single Hidden Power type that requires a larger-than-modern sacrifice to get modern-or-better BP, than it's not a clear-cut improvement to return to old-gen Hidden Power mechanics.

That would be a nerf to freeze

Also, Gems

I think Moves and Abilities have priority over other mechanics for this project, though unfixable would have to specify/clarify.

 

[Talpr0ne]

I'm not going to wade through the math right now, but there's a question of mechanics: if it's possible to get any (Valid) Hidden Power at 60 (Or more) BP with the same sort of nearly maxed out IVs that are possible in Gen VI, then yeah, I'd agree. If there's even a single Hidden Power type that requires a larger-than-modern sacrifice to get modern-or-better BP, than it's not a clear-cut improvement to return to old-gen Hidden Power mechanics.

Technician Hidden Power isn't really a thing though. Only Mr. Mime and Roserade get Technician with a decent Special Attack stat, and both of them are pretty bad in OU. Meanwhile, countless Pokemon benefit from the old Hidden Power mechanic, i.e. Alakazam, Keldeo, Serperior, Latios, Thundurus and many more.

I also think that Hyper Beam clones such as Blast Burn should always get the recharge since they never actually worked like RBY Hyper Beam.

On a final note, Aurora Beam has 33,2% chance of lowering the opposing Attack by 1 stage in Stadium, instead of the current 10%

 

[TotalAsteroid]

If you want to go there, it's also the case that their reductions were re-applied under way too many circumstances.

For instance: Burn the enemy. Use Swords Dance. Their Attack is now 1/4th base.

In all of that I read or seen, that is not true. The only thing I know of is that there are two oddities in status drops:
1. Rest only cures the damage, not the drop (Indcluded in metagame)
2. Stat-up moves of Attack/Speed will negate the drop, but not the boost
Back then, there were only moves that only increased one stat by a max of 2 stages (Agility & SD). If we simply limit it to moves with one stat-up, then status would still not be nearly as nerfed. It's an issue if it should be a set of moves or a selection of moves. unfixable, of course, has the final say.

 

[Ghoul King]

In all of that I read or seen, that is not true. The only thing I know of is that there are two oddities in status drops:
1. Rest only cures the damage, not the drop (Indcluded in metagame)
2. Stat-up moves of Attack/Speed will negate the drop, but not the boost
Back then, there were only moves that only increased one stat by a max of 2 stages (Agility & SD). If we simply limit it to moves with one stat-up, then status would still not be nearly as nerfed. It's an issue if it should be a set of moves or a selection of moves. unfixable, of course, has the final say.

http://bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net/w..._I#Burn_and_paralysis_stat_penalties_stacking

Gen I is broken like crazy.

 

[Phione]

Another Gen I glitch: Counter may deal damage even if the target does not use a valid move to Counter if the LAST move they used was valid and if they cannot move this turn (from Sleep, Paralysis, Freeze, Confusion, or switching out).

 

[sin(pi)]

Honestly I don't think you should include glitches and like half of gen 1 in this since a) they weren't as the move was supposed to work and b) it makes things 1000x more complicated

It also may be easier to make it so that just the effects (and priority, etc) of moves are affected - don't change how many turns sleep lasts, or how burn affects attack.

 

[TotalAsteroid]

Honestly I don't think you should include glitches and like half of gen 1 in this since a) they weren't as the move was supposed to work and b) it makes things 1000x more complicated

It also may be easier to make it so that just the effects (and priority, etc) of moves are affected - don't change how many turns sleep lasts, or how burn affects attack.

Yeah, there's so many in other generations to, such as Acid Rain. I second this.

 

[thdhted]

Welp with that idea busted, I present to you: Ultimate abuse of resttalk mechanics!

Zygarde @ Leftovers
Ability: Aura Break
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 SpD
Careful Nature
- Dragon Tail
- Coil
- Rest
- Sleep Talk

You guys remember banetite Zygarde from MnM? This thing is arguably worse. Good typing, bulk, and now, reliable recovery to couple its excellent boosting options. This thing NEEDS a fairy or ice type to beat it reliably, as it will otherwise phase it out.

Slowbro @ Slowbronite
Ability: Regenerator
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Def / 8 SpD
Bold Nature
- Scald
- Calm Mind
- Rest
- Sleep Talk


Zygarde's counterpart for this core, it literally stops critdra and its potential counterparts COLD and beats most of the stuff that beats Zygarde. Step-by-step process to beat critdra(joke):
Bait in kingdra with zygarde
switch in slowbro whilst it sets up its focus energy
mega evolve and set up a free CM while it fails to crit
laugh and start sweeping.



All in all a pretty annoying core to beat, and will heavily remind people of GSC OU.

 

[robotic jo]

maybe bring back the speed critical hit thing (gen 1)
oh man, crits galore

EDIT:
Also maybe make SP attack and SP Defense the same. (generation 1)
NO ABILITIES! (generation 1)
yeah this tier is interesting lol
No items. (gen1)

 

[Valmanway]

maybe bring back the speed critical hit thing (gen 1)
oh man, crits galore

EDIT:
Also maybe make SP attack and SP Defense the same. (generation 1)
NO ABILITIES! (generation 1)
yeah this tier is interesting lol
No items. (gen1)

Most of those come with nerfs, though. Slow Pokemon would have reduced critical hit rates, no items doesn't make sense, and removing abilities will always be considered a nerf (except for Pokemon with negative abilities like Slacking and Regigigas, but they've never not had their abilities in the first place). Also the OP says no stat increases.

 

[Mr Spaz]

Swoobat @ Focus Sash
Ability: Simple
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Amnesia
- Stored Power
- Heat Wave
- Roost/Signal Beam

Regular Swoobat on steroids. Amnesia boosts SpA and SpD by 4 stages each. 1 turn of setup =
+4 252 SpA Swoobat Stored Power (180 BP) vs. 4 HP / 252 SpD Eviolite Chansey: 316-373 (49.2 - 58%) -- 98% chance to 2HKO

 

[G-Luke]

Well hopefully we can stop arguing about what's not buffed and talk about the actual meta. Let's make it simple. The buffs affect MOVES AND CERTAIN MECHANICS ONLY. NoTypes, no nothing.
Not all Peaks will be reached since some cancel out each other. If they do, LEAVE IT. Now, on to the metagame, since it hasn't developed yet. And take off Team Preview tho!

Here's Hardcore sample teams.

Rain Offence

(OGRE LORD) Politoed @ Choice Specs
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 HP
Ability: Drizzle
Modest Nature
- Hydro Pump
- Blizzard
- Focus Blast
- Scald / Psychic

(Lizard King) Heliolisk @ Choice Specs
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Ability: Dry Skin
Timid Nature
- Thunder
- Hyper Voice
- Volt Switch
- Surf

(Fat Swim) Swampert @ Swampertite
EVs: 252 Atk / 100 HP / 156 Spe
Ability: Damp
Adamant / Jolly Nature
- Waterfall
- Earthquake
- Bulk Up / Stealth Rock
- Ice Punch

(Storm) Tornados-T @ Life Orb
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Ability: Regenerator
Timid Nature
- Hurricane
- Focus Blast
- U-Turn
- Dark Pulse

(THUNBLIZZ!!!) Starmie @ Life Orb
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 HP / 252 Spe
Ability: Analyctic
Timid Nature
- Blizzard
- Thunder
- Rapid Spin
- Hydro Pump

(Red Fire Ant) Scizor @ Life Orb
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Ability: Technichan
Adamant Nature
- Swords Dance
- Bullet Punch
- Superpower
- Bug Bite / U-Turn

Hyper Offence

Azelf @ Focus Sash
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Ability: Levitate
Hasty Nature
- Stealth Rock
- Taunt
- Explosion
- Fire Blast

Lopunny @ Lopunnite
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Ability: Limber
Jolly Nature
- Fake Out
- Return
- High Jump Kick
- Healing Wish / Ice Punch

Thundurus @ Life Orb
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 HP / 252 Spe
Ability: Prankster
Timid Nature
- Thunder Wave
- Thunderbolt
- Focus Blast
- Volt Switch / Taunt

Hoopa-Unbound @ Choice Scarf
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 Atk / 252 Spe
Ability: Magician
Hasty Nature
- Dark Pulse
- Psyshock
- Gunk Shot
- Fire Punch

Serperior @ Life Orb
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Ability: Contrary
Timid Nature
- Leaf Storm
- Dragon Pulse
- Taunt
- Hidden Power (Fire)

Latios @ Life Orb
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 HP / 252 Spe
Ability: Levitate
Timid Nature
- Draco Meteor
- Psyshock
- Surf
- Memento

 

[InfernapeTropius11]

Well hopefully we can stop arguing about what's not buffed and talk about the actual meta. Let's make it simple. The buffs affect MOVES AND CERTAIN MECHANICS ONLY. NoTypes, no nothing.
Not all Peaks will be reached since some cancel out each other. If they do, LEAVE IT. Now, on to the metagame, since it hasn't developed yet. And take off Team Preview tho!

Here's Hardcore sample teams.

Rain Offence

(OGRE LORD) Politoed @ Choice Specs
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 HP
Ability: Drizzle
Modest Nature
- Hydro Pump
- Blizzard
- Focus Blast
- Scald / Psychic

(Lizard King) Heliolisk @ Choice Specs
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Ability: Dry Skin
Timid Nature
- Thunder
- Hyper Voice
- Volt Switch
- Surf

(Fat Swim) Swampert @ Swampertite
EVs: 252 Atk / 100 HP / 156 Spe
Ability: Damp
Adamant / Jolly Nature
- Waterfall
- Earthquake
- Bulk Up / Stealth Rock
- Ice Punch

(Storm) Tornados-T @ Life Orb
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Ability: Regenerator
Timid Nature
- Hurricane
- Focus Blast
- U-Turn
- Dark Pulse

(THUNBLIZZ!!!) Starmie @ Life Orb
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 HP / 252 Spe
Ability: Analyctic
Timid Nature
- Blizzard
- Thunder
- Rapid Spin
- Hydro Pump

Hyper Offence

Azelf @ Focus Sash
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Ability: Levitate
Hasty Nature
- Stealth Rock
- Taunt
- Explosion
- Fire Blast

Lopunny @ Lopunnite
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Ability: Limber
Jolly Nature
- Fake Out
- Return
- High Jump Kick
- Healing Wish / Ice Punch

Thundurus @ Life Orb
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 HP / 252 Spe
Ability: Prankster
Timid Nature
- Thunder Wave
- Thunderbolt
- Focus Blast
- Volt Switch / Taunt

Hoopa-Unbound @ Choice Scarf
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 Atk / 252 Spe
Ability: Magician
Hasty Nature
- Dark Pulse
- Psyshock
- Gunk Shot
- Fire Punch

Serperior @ Life Orb
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Ability: Contrary
Timid Nature
- Leaf Storm
- Dragon Pulse
- Taunt
- Hidden Power (Fire)

Both your teams only have 5 mons :p

Assist also looks annoying, as it can call phazing with Prankster if I understood this correctly ;~;

 

[G-Luke]

Whoa. Typing at 2 am does wonders. Will edit.