Pokémon Diamond, Pearl & Platinum In-game Tier List Discussion

[Kurona]

Am I the only person who uses the damage calculator to check which matchups are positive?

That's generally a bad idea, as practise is always different from paper. If you're nomming something for a rank then you should be speaking from some sort of experience.

 

[OrangeGuru]

I think experience is more likely to introduce bias. It's also hard to determine how good a single Pokemon is when it's being supported by its teammates.

1. I don't think bias is being introduced; you either had a good experience using a certain poke (say Staraptor or Abra) or a bad experience (like I did when trying out Nosepass). If you have experience, then you have evidence that something works/doesn't work (but more power to you if you prefer to do calcs; that's your style I suppose)

2. If we're talking in-game (which we are here), there is very little team support at least from the traditional competitive sense. I don't think many people run moves like Stealth Rock or Trick Room other than to help themselves (not their teammates). And again Pokemon is a fairly easy game; if you're up against a fighting gym, use your flying- or psychic-type and that's pretty much it. "Teammates" don't really play an effect in battles unless you need to switch when someone like your rival has a diverse group of pokes (which is super rare and opposing trainers don't switch in the middle of a battle very often)

 

[sumwun]

1. I don't think bias is being introduced; you either had a good experience using a certain poke (say Staraptor or Abra) or a bad experience (like I did when trying out Nosepass). If you have experience, then you have evidence that something works/doesn't work (but more power to you if you prefer to do calcs; that's your style I suppose)

2. If we're talking in-game (which we are here), there is very little team support at least from the traditional competitive sense. I don't think many people run moves like Stealth Rock or Trick Room other than to help themselves (not their teammates). And again Pokemon is a fairly easy game; if you're up against a fighting gym, use your flying- or psychic-type and that's pretty much it. "Teammates" don't really play an effect in battles unless you need to switch when someone like your rival has a diverse group of pokes (which is super rare and opposing trainers don't switch in the middle of a battle very often)

That makes sense.

 

[OrangeGuru]

Gligar relies on TMs to work and gets six good matchups (rival, Team Galactic, Bryon, Volkner, Aaron, and Flint) even when it does use TMs. Psyduck can use no TMs, get seven or eight good matchups (rival, Team Galactic, Roark, Fantina (DP only), Byron, Aaron, Bertha, and Flint), and be an HM slave, all at the same time. I'm okay with Psyduck being B tier, but shouldn't Gligar be B tier as well?

I'll preface this by saying I haven't used Psyduck, but I think Gligar's typing with two immunities and better stats (125 defense, 95 speed, etc) make Gligar worthy of A (in addition to everything else my nom stated). And I don't think Psyduck's moveset is as customizable as Gligar's (I understand this can be both good and bad, but imo TMs are meant to be used)

 

[Kurona]

Gligar relies on TMs to work and gets six good matchups (rival, Team Galactic, Bryon, Volkner, Aaron, and Flint) even when it does use TMs. Psyduck can use no TMs, get seven or eight good matchups (rival, Team Galactic, Roark, Fantina (DP only), Byron, Aaron, Bertha, and Flint), and be an HM slave, all at the same time. I'm okay with Psyduck being B tier, but shouldn't Gligar be B tier as well?

This is being very generous to Psyduck and only coming at it from a purely super-effective-hits-against-X-number-of-significant-battles perspective, which is very basic at best and terribly misrepresentative of how a battle would play out in reality at worst; especially when Golduck has neither the high attack/high-BP moves nor speed of something like Garchomp or Infernape to quickly take down many Pokémon without taking on a lot of chip damage.

The argument also ignores... pretty much everything aside from HMs, Gym Leaders and the Elite 4. Consistency and longevity against normal trainers throughout the game among other things is also extremely important and a big reason as to why you can't just plug a few things into a battle calculator and expect that to be a decent substitute for actual experience with the Pokémon. You just can't. You need to know what you're dealing with otherwise a large basis of your argument is guesswork and looking at numbers expecting them to be a perfect equation yet missing many pieces of a much larger picture.

I'm not going to make any arguments for Gligar's placement - I have used it before and it was useful, though it was long ago and I couldn't tell you much about it now - but the idea that it should be ranked similarly to Golduck because of a very arbitrary quota of super-effective hits and TM usage is not a good argument.

 

[Karxrida]

I actually agree that A sounds a little high for Gligar just because it's kind of a resource sink, plus I can't see it being on the same level as Gible. B seems appropriate to me.

 

[Karxrida]

Sorry for the double post, but this is kind of important and want to ensure people don't miss it.

So I just remembered that Dual Slot mode is a thing and was wondering what we should do with Pokémon you can get with it. I don't know the list off the top of my head, but I do know Gengar is part of it and can be found in the Old Chateau (at a 4% chance in one room, but still) with any Gen III cart in the second slot.

 

[Cherub Agent]

Sorry for the double post, but this is kind of important and want to ensure people don't miss it.

So I just remembered that Dual Slot mode is a thing and was wondering what we should do with Pokémon you can get with it. I don't know the list off the top of my head, but I do know Gengar is part of it and can be found in the Old Chateau (at a 4% chance in one room, but still) with any Gen III cart in the second slot.

Dual slot pokemon only appear after obtaining the national dex

 

[DHR-107]

That's generally a bad idea, as practise is always different from paper. If you're nomming something for a rank then you should be speaking from some sort of experience.

I think experience is more likely to introduce bias. It's also hard to determine how good a single Pokemon is when it's being supported by its teammates.

I'm just going to pop in here and say both are fine examples. However, the calc stuff should be using accurate/usable numbers/reasonable expectations for levels etc when you are using them. Experience does count for a lot in these sorts of tier lists. Sometimes a mon looks bad on paper but actually does work during the game (Sunflora was a lot better than I expected it to be in BW2 for example). Or the reverse. People testing things is really the best way of doing it.

I ended up in an argument about Delphox's matchup with Wikstrom in XY (This can be found here: http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/pokémon-x-y-in-game-tier-list-discussion-mkii.3517128/page-7#post-6463343) The user was trying to state that Delphox was hard countered by Probopass, and I had to resort to calcs in order to say otherwise.

Regarding Psyduck, I can't imagine it having an easy time against general trainer battles. It's stats are... Fairly mediocre at best. Gligar has exceptional typing (allowing it a lot of "easy" switch in options vs most opponents) and decent stats (as well as becoming a defensive behemoth when it evolves). Golduck just... Gets better than Psyduck? I've never found Golduck to be particularly amazing in any game where I have used. It's solid sure, but nothing to shout about, so I think B would be perfectly fine. There might be just enough positives to push Gligar up to A if you take into account it being able to go toe to toe with certain problem foes (Bronzong/Garchomp etc). Remember that ideally we are trying to tier these mons in a vacuum, so comparing them can be problematic at the best of times. If we did, then Golduck suffers from "Starter syndrome" where Empoleon is just better at everything.

 

[sumwun]

The argument also ignores... pretty much everything aside from HMs, Gym Leaders and the Elite 4. Consistency and longevity against normal trainers throughout the game among other things is also extremely important and a big reason as to why you can't just plug a few things into a battle calculator and expect that to be a decent substitute for actual experience with the Pokémon.

According to my experience with Platinum, many barely decent Pokemon (including Geodude, Riolu, Swinub, and sometimes even Nosepass) can consistently and reliably beat regular trainers, so I don't think this is relevant to the distinction between A tier and B tier.

Remember that ideally we are trying to tier these mons in a vacuum, so comparing them can be problematic at the best of times. If we did, then Golduck suffers from "Starter syndrome" where Empoleon is just better at everything.

Of course Piplup is better at everything. That's why Piplup is A tier and Psyduck is B tier. I don't see why this is a problem.
The reason why I sometimes compare specific Pokemon is to try to keep consistency. If two Pokemon are about the same distance from "the ideal Pokemon", and they end up on different tiers, then I think this is a problem.

By the way, how is 95 bad for a base special attack stat?

 

[Roseguardin]

According to my experience with Platinum, many barely decent Pokemon (including Geodude, Riolu, Swinub, and sometime even Nosepass) can consistently and reliably beat regular trainers, so I don't think this is relevant to the distinction between A tier and B tier.

By the way, how is 95 bad for a base special attack stat?

It kind of is though, because as you progress through the game, especially in Platinum, the trainers start using Pokemon that scale accordingly with the game's progression, from basic forms to high-level and high-stat Pokemon that take more to defeat. Gyarados, Glaceon, Electabuzz, etc. can all be encountered even before Victory Road on trainer teams and beating them still counts towards a Pokemon's viability. The ones you listed are all tiered low not for a poor matchup against non-boss NPCs, but for reasons relating to availability (Swinub), power/accessibility to evolution (Geodude), and time sink (Riolu).

95 Special Attack isn't bad, but it's on the wrong side of 100 for me. It's certainly useable and far from awful, but it needs high BP moves to compensate, which have their own downsides in low PP and/or accuracy or recoil.

e: with a few exceptions, like surf/flamethrower/boltbeam

 

[sin(pi)]

Gonna reply to a few posts here now that I have a bit of time. I've also posted prelimary Pt rankings (using sumwun's post as a base, shoutouts for that) but they're unpolished, so have at them! Also nomming Zubat for B in all games but specifically DP - I'll write-up later but it's wildly surpassed my expectations so far.

I would strongly argue for Weavile being at least B in Platinum, though significantly lower in DP. I haven't got a full write-up or anything - yet - but it was an incredible instrumental part of my team in my last run. A much earlier Razor Claw in Cyrus' room helps it SO much, and from then on it only really needs Ice Punch, Night Slash and Swords Dance - the last slot's completely free and it has fun demolishing anything that it's not weak to. Incredible against Lucien and Bertha, pretty decent against like half of Aaron, Cyrus and Cynthia (it's the best thing you can possibly get against a Garchomp); in general pulls in great performances against the normal trainers and even neutral matchups like Volkner. I'll try and get something written up but I feel it's very underrated in the current list.

Weavile is a pretty strong poke in general, so I could support this. I don't think Razor Claw is obtainable pre-E4 in DP, so Sneasel is way worse there, but in Pt Weavile sounds good. Obvious problems are the late encounter and the reliance on TMs/Move Tutor for a solid movepool (also you have to wait until lv49 for Ice Shard as a Sneasel which is a lil annoying, but the move isn't mandatory). Write something up at some point! I've thrown it in B for now.

The meaning I had in mind was that the boundary between the tiers are flexible, and no Pokemon is absolutely bad (which in turn means the definition of F tier is inaccurate and should be changed).
I tested this on a DSi, and it works, so it might be that it works on some of the newer systems and not the older ones.
I do agree that Weavile is a great Pokemon for playthroughs, but only after you catch it. It comes so late that it doesn't get many chances to prove its worth. Additionally, it comes at around level 30, and it needs to be raised about 10 levels in order for it to be useful. I personally think Sneasel should be D or C tier.

bolded - that's odd. I'll take your word for it, but I'm not sure how we should proceed on this - we can't assume the console a person is using. I think the best way to proceed would be to mention that having a DSi (or w/e) makes things easier for the player.

First, I think I came up with a better way to word my argument.
Every fully evolved Pokemon has some way to deal damage and can defeat at least a few opponents, so the cutoff between "a tiny bit useful" and "pathetic" is very blurry and controversial. Therefore, I think it's easier to think of F tier as simply the Pokemon that aren't ideal enough for E tier. This also makes the boundaries between tiers more flexible, and Pokemon can be more easily moved out of a tier if that tier gets too big.

Second, the OP hasn't been updated since I suggested moving Hoothoot, Drifloon, and Buneary to D tier. I also think Onix (no trade) and Steelix (no trade) should be tiered separately because they're both obtainable and they're unrelated when the player can't trade. (though it won't make much of a difference because both will most likely be F tier)

Third, moving the clock forward 6 hours will cause Pokemon to appear instantly on honey trees, but only on some kinds of DS's and not others. I don't know how to account for this in in-game tiers.

Fourth, I have some more suggestions for moving Pokemon...
...to D tier.

Skorupi - good offensive stats, good defensive typing, good level up movepool

Sneasel - near-ideal offensive stats, good offensive typing, passable level up movepool

Kricketot - available since beginning, passable level up movepool

Hippopotas - good offensive typing, good level up movepool, passable stats, losing 1/16 HP per turn isn't that much

...to F tier.

Barboach - bad offensive stats, learns good moves late

Finneon - bad offensive stats, not very good offensive typing

Thought I'd updated the OP, my bad. Changes have now been made. As for the noms, I honestly have zero experience with any of those so anything I say would be speculation at best, I sorta agree with Sneasel/Skorupi and maybe Hippopotas but disagree with the others. I'd like to open this up to other people and get 1-2 more opinions on them all though, so they'll stay where they are for now. Hippo's movepool is really ass though.

Psyduck, Golduck (all three games)
Availability: For some reason, Psyduck's availabilty is listed as mid-game on the current guide. This is completely false. Psyduck can be caught in Ravaged Path before the first (DP) second (Pt) rival battle. Psyduck starts evolving into Golduck at level 33, which is kind of late.
Stats: Golduck has good all-around stats, although none of them are particularly high. Its 80/78/80 bulk means it can take hits and doesn't need to be revived constantly. It has 95 special attack and 85 speed, making it relatively good for in-game use.
Typing: Psyduck and Golduck benefit quite a bit from their pure water typing. They only have two weaknesses, and they get STAB from surf, making surf even more powerful than it already is.
Movepool: The only good moves in Psyduck's and Golduck's level up movepool are water gun, water pulse, and confusion. Because they eventually become obsolete when the HM03 surf is obtained, and because Golduck only needs surf to win most battles, it's probably best to make Golduck an HM slave. In addition to surf, Golduck can learn rock smash, strength, rock climb, and waterfall. While it can learn confusion by level up, Golduck already beats most poison Pokemon by spamming STAB attacks and loses to Roselia and Roserade even with confusion.
Major Battles: These are the notable opponents that Psyduck (or Golduck) can defeat without overleveling or using TMs. As you can see, its usefulness drops at around Hearthome City and then it can't do much until it evolves, but it's pretty good for the rest of the playthrough.
Barry (Route 203): Chimchar
Roark: Geodude, Onix, Cranidos
Mars (Valley Windworks): Zubat
Jupiter (Eterna City): Zubat
Fantina (Pt): Duskull, Haunter
Barry (Hearthome City): Starly, Buizel, Ponyta, Monferno
Barry (Pastoria City): Buizel, Ponyta, Monferno
Crasher Wake: Quagsire
Cyrus (Celestic Town): Sneasel, Golbat, Murkrow
Fantina (DP): Drifblim, Gengar
Barry (Canalave City): Torterra, Monferno, Infernape, Ponyta, Rapidash, Staravia, Staraptor, Buizel, Floatzel
Byron: Bronzor, Steelix, Bastiodon
Saturn (Lake Valor): Golbat, Bronzor, Toxicroak
Mars (Lake Verity): Golbat, Bronzor, Purugly
Candice: Medicham, Sneasel, Piloswine
Cyrus (Veilstone City): Sneasel, Golbat, Crobat, Murkrow, Honchkrow
Saturn (Veilstone City): Golbat, Bronzor, Toxicroak
Mars and Jupiter: both Bronzors, both Golbats, Purugly
Cyrus (Spear Pillar): Honchkrow, Crobat
Cyrus (Distortion World): Houndoom, Honchkrow, Crobat
Volkner: Ambipom
Barry (Pokemon League): Staraptor, Infernape, Rapidash
Aaron: Yanmega, Scizor, Beautifly, Dustox Vespiquen, Drapion
Bertha: Gliscor, Rhyperior, Quagsire, Whiscash, Sudowoodo, Golem, Hippowdon
Flint: Houndoom, Flareon, Magmortar, Steelix, Lopunny, Rapidash, Drifblim, Infernape
Lucian: Girafarig, Medicham, Bronzong
Cynthia: Gastrodon, Spiritomb, Lucario
Additional Comments: Psyduck and Golduck are exceptionally typical Pokemon (water type, 500 base stat total, no amazing abilities, no interesting moves, medium fast growth rate, level evolution), so I don't really have anything to say here. Due to Psyduck's very early availabiltiy, good overall stats, strong STAB in surf, and my lack of anything to say here, I nominate Psyduck for B tier in all three games.

I think I'm going to agree with the Psyduck nom (to B) because it's a HM slave which can attack fairly well. I had more to say on this but I think that sums it up fairly well. If it wasn't such a good HM slave, I'd put in in C though, so imo that needs to be emphasised when writing it up.

sin(pi) if all forms of Burmy are the same rank, I'd consider just listing it once.

Nominating Platinum Eevee (Glaceon) for E or F. The Icy Rock comes way too late after getting Eevee to justify keeping it in the party and unevolved.

I'll leave it as is for now, but if they remain as they are (which I expect that they will), I'll combine the Wormadams. Mothim is separate for obvious reasons.
Agree with the Eevee nom. Glaceon is pretty good though (and Eevee isn't completely useless, especially if you get Adaptability), so I'd say E is good.

Availability: Gligar is available pretty early in Platinum, able to be caught right after the 2nd Gym (the grass below Cycling Road). The Razor Fang, used for evolution, is found a little later on Route 214 (although it is hidden, making it more difficult to find if not using a guide or the Dowsing Machine).

Stats: Gliscor has good, well-diversified stats with a solid 95 base attack and 95 base speed, allowing it to outspeed and hit most targets in the game hard (unless you are underleveled). Paired with these stats is an extremely good 125 base defense, making Gliscor a solid physical wall.

Typing: Ground / Flying is a nice typing, giving Gliscor two immunities (Electric and Ground) and a few resistances (although fighting and poison are really the only notable resistances). Only having two weaknesses is also useful, although a 4x weakness (to Ice) is a little annoying at times.

Movepool: Gliscor has an extremely customizable moveset with a variety of coverage options, including the elemental fangs (Move Rememberer), Poison Jab (Move Rememberer), Night Slash, X-Scissor / U-turn, Brick Break (TM), and Stone Edge (TM). Unfortunately, Gliscor's only access to STAB comes from TMs (Earthquake and Aerial Ace), but Gliscor makes great use of these moves. On top of all this, Gliscor also gets access to utility moves like Roost and Swords Dance, as well as learning 4 HM moves (Cut, Defog, Strength, Rock Smash), so Gliscor can function as a useful HM Slave if needed.

Major Battles: Gligar starts out slow due to a lack of useful attacks (mostly poison sting and faint attack), but once it evolves Gligar improves drastically.

• Good Matchup: Byron, Volkner, Aaron (esp. if running coverage like Stone Edge and Fire Fang), Flint, all Team Galactic fights, and Rival (can beat Heracross, Snorlax, Empoleon, the Grass type, and the fire type, but Floatzel is a problem with Ice Fang).
• Bad Matchup: Fantina, Maylene (typically not enough coverage yet to compete), and Candice
• Neutral Matchup: Wake (can beat Gyarados with Thunder Fang, but must avoid Floatzel's Ice Fang), Bertha (lots of physically defensive pokes, but can feasibly beat Golem and Rhyperior; her Gliscor has Ice Fang though), Lucian (SpD is Gliscor's weaker defense), and Cynthia (can beat Roserade and Lucario, but loses to Milotic)

Additional Comments: Gligar makes for a surprisingly good pokemon with great stats and a moveset that can be customized to fit your team. Despite needing to use Earthquake and Aerial Ace TMs for STAB, Gligar probably is one of the better users of these moves, so it's not that big of a negative. While Gligar starts slow in usefulness, the last half of the game sets up nicely for Gligar to excel. Due to early availability, great stats (510 BST), great typing, a highly customizable moveset and mostly good matchups in important battles, I nominate Gligar for A Tier in Platinum.

I can go with B for sure, potentially A. It's in B for now but certainly something that can rise. Wake is arguably a poor matchup though, since it's water weak.

According to my experience with Platinum, many barely decent Pokemon (including Geodude, Riolu, Swinub, and sometimes even Nosepass) can consistently and reliably beat regular trainers, so I don't think this is relevant to the distinction between A tier and B tier.Of course Piplup is better at everything. That's why Piplup is S tier and Psyduck is B tier. I don't see why this is a problem.
The reason why I sometimes compare specific Pokemon is to try to keep consistency. If two Pokemon are about the same distance from "the ideal Pokemon", and they end up on different tiers, then I think this is a problem.

By the way, how is 95 bad for a base special attack stat?

Piplup is actually A at the moment, and personally I don't see it as S. It really struggles until level 25 Bubblebeam (Roark should be a super easy matchup but Bubble doesn't OHKO Cranidos and you can feasibly get flinchkilled by Headbutt because you're so slow) and its low speed throughout the game means you have to heal fairly often. It's very bulky and has an excellent typing (and STAB Surf is strong enough to cleave through Grunts and things once you get it), but it hasn't felt like S rank material to me.
Echoing the thought on 95 being the wrong side of 100, but I've already addressed the Psyduck nom so I'll leave it there.

 

[Kurona]

Weavile is a pretty strong poke in general, so I could support this. I don't think Razor Claw is obtainable pre-E4 in DP, so Sneasel is way worse there, but in Pt Weavile sounds good. Obvious problems are the late encounter and the reliance on TMs/Move Tutor for a solid movepool (also you have to wait until lv49 for Ice Shard as a Sneasel which is a lil annoying, but the move isn't mandatory). Write something up at some point! I've thrown it in B for now.

You get the Razor Claw mid-Victory Road in DP because Game Freak is a paragon of game design. Hence my saying that it should be much lower in DP; if you put in the work it could be decent in DP... but it's awfully let down by having to be a Sneasel most of the time. I'd personally put it at D outside of Platinum.

 

[sin(pi)]

You get the Razor Claw mid-Victory Road in DP because Game Freak is a paragon of game design. Hence my saying that it should be much lower in DP; if you put in the work it could be decent in DP... but it's awfully let down by having to be a Sneasel most of the time. I'd personally put it at D outside of Platinum.

Derp. In that case yeah, D works.

Are you going to do anything about these?

Budew: This is really good and I actually disagree with a couple of the points HotfuzzBall said (it swept Fantina's gym bar the Mismagius because I taught it Shadow Ball which straight up OHKO's most of the gym). However it is really frail physically and that makes me hesitant; also grass coverage is pretty bad. I'm going to tentatively move it up to A but I could easily be persuaded to move it back.
Gallade: I can't see this as significantly better than Garde (it can evolve slightly earlier but asides from that) - Ralts is garbage and Kirlia isn't really any better, so having either split evolution above B is a bit of a stretch for me. Its STABs are good but not excellent (at least until you reach Victory Road and CC). Overall it doesn't quite feel like A Rank material, though again I could be persuaded otherwise.
I... completely spaced that you can catch wild Steelix in Iron Island, added to both (in E for now on account of its decent bulk and the fact that it's not too underlevelled - an Onix caught in Oreburgh would likely be weaker because it's significantly harder to train).

By the way, Happiny can only be obtained in Platinum by breeding, so I think the Chansey family should be listed as "Chansey" and not "Chansey/Happiny". Eevee (Umbreon) is listed between Tropius and Uxie, and last time I checked, that isn't alphabetical order.

Thanks for catching those, edited.

However, whoever put Electabuzz in D tier definitely did not use any of my posts as a base.

I lumped Electabuzz and Magmar together because I assumed 'buzz was available near the Windworks once you got Surf, for some reason. Since it's so late, I've dropped it down to reflect that.

 

[Kurona]

Why are Mesprit, Shieldon, Remoraid, Finneon, Goldeen and Mantyke at F? Mesprit I understand the whole hassle in roaming Pokémon; but if you really wanted to get it it would take seconds to bike between Floaroma and Fuego with the Marking Map then chuck a Master Ball at it. The rest are pretty bad Pokémon, but at least some of them - especially Goldeen - seem like they'd be E rather than F especially when there's nothing crippling about obtaining or evolving/training them. Bit of a minor niggle, I know, but still.

 

[Karxrida]

Mespirit is a huge waste of the Master Ball imo (I'd rather use it on whatever title legendary you have), but I agree that F is a little harsh. It's a pain to catch but it has good enough stats to use if you do get it, so E is fine.

 

[Kurona]

Every fully evolved Pokemon has some way to deal damage and can defeat a few opponents, so if all the slightly good Pokemon were E tier, then the only Pokemon left in F tier would be Munchlax and Feebas.
I found another typo. The description of Platinum's F tier mentions Diamond and Pearl.

The F-tier, as far as I can see; is reserved for Pokémon that are not just mediocre, but you either have to go extremely out of your way to get (honey trees, feebas) or are so impossibly weak they're an absolute joke (Unown, no-trade Onix). Goldeen at the very least does not seem to fit into either.


One other thing I'm confused about is why Spiritomb is E when it fits into the former 'go extremely out of your way to get' category. And why is '(trade)' put beside it? As far as I know there's no in-game trade for Spiritomb.

 

[Codraroll]

Mespirit is a huge waste of the Master Ball imo (I'd rather use it on whatever title legendary you have)

The title legendaries have a catch rate of 30, so they're not really worth throwing the Master Ball on. If we're taking the Master Ball into account (and assuming it's not being saved for post-game Giratina, Heatran or the odd Shiny), the roaming legendaries might actually be the best possible use for it.

 

[Kurona]

I have a question of my own. When tiering Pokemon that require an item and a trade to evolve, such as Onix, should I assume that the Onix user must obtain a metal coat in his/her/its own game before evolving the Onix, or can the trading partner provide the metal coat?

The Metal Coat must be acquired in the user's game. Otherwise there's no real difference between trading it to another game and getting a few Rare Candies or TMs used on it.
That said, Steelix is in the rather unique case where it can be caught at Iron Island without the user needing to trawl an unevolved Onix all the way through 3/4 of the game. I think that highly influences the viability.

 

[Kurona]

Isn't that the case for all evolved Pokemon that can be found wild? Like how Roselia users have the option to catch a wild Roselia instead of evolving a Budew?

Yeah, probably. Though to vastly different extents.

 

[OrangeGuru]

Spiritomb doesn't require going extremely out of the way. It only requires going underground and back up 32 times, which I think is easier than getting Pokemon like Cranidos or Azelf. Spiritomb does require interacting with another player, so I think it's basically the same as a Pokemon that requires trading.

I would consider Spiritomb the definition of going out of the way. You have to pause your pokemon adventure and take time going to the Underground multiple times rather than progressing through the game training and capturing your team. For me, I rarely adventured down into the Underground until the post-game; I have no experience using Spiritomb, so its stats may make it worth it, but I doubt that

 

[Kurona]

I would consider Spiritomb the definition of going out of the way. You have to pause your pokemon adventure and take time going to the Underground multiple times rather than progressing through the game training and capturing your team. For me, I rarely adventured down into the Underground until the post-game; I have no experience using Spiritomb, so its stats may make it worth it, but I doubt that

It's a defensive Pokémon with average attacking stats, redundant STABs with a practically barren movepool besides said redundant STABs, Psychic, Return and Nasty Plot. If it was encountered normally in the wild it'd probably rank somewhere in C or D.

 

[sin(pi)]

Why are Mesprit, Shieldon, Remoraid, Finneon, Goldeen and Mantyke at F? Mesprit I understand the whole hassle in roaming Pokémon; but if you really wanted to get it it would take seconds to bike between Floaroma and Fuego with the Marking Map then chuck a Master Ball at it. The rest are pretty bad Pokémon, but at least some of them - especially Goldeen - seem like they'd be E rather than F especially when there's nothing crippling about obtaining or evolving/training them. Bit of a minor niggle, I know, but still.

Mesprit necessitates the use of a Master Ball to be efficient for ingame (I don't think anyone disagrees with this). I am personally not a fan of using the Master Ball ingame, but if you do want to use it, I guess Mesprit isn't bad. Where would you place it?
Shieldon is awkward to obtain (Underground is far from ideal, though it's not awful; I know Cranidos is A but it's just so good that the minor hassle to get it is ). Even when you do, you have a mon with 42/42 attacking stats which is frankly pathetic, and a moveset which is pretty pathetic (sure, you can teach it Rock Tomb ASAP, but it's not exactly strong enough to make good use of the move). Even once it's evolved, Bastiodon is still pathetic. Its typing is fairly good but leaves a lot to be desired (two 4x weaknesses amongst other things), and though it has rather good bulk, it hits like a wet paper bag. It can't even salvage itself with utility moves; loads of other mons in the region learn Strength and Rock Smash, and SR isn't that useful in-game bar, like, Bugsy.
Remoraid was lifted from the on-site rankings, to be honest. It looks much better than that though - it's available as soon as you get the Good Rod, and Octillery learns a ton of moves (Ice Beam, Signal Beam, Gunk Shot by level up/relearner, Psychic/Flamethrower by TM) and can use them pretty well. It's really slow but that's one of the few points against it from what I can see - I'm moving it up to D but I'd support a rise to at least C if someone can vouch for it.
Lumineon can probably rise, though. You're stuck with sub-70 attacking stats which is awful, and your bulk is pretty low too - but the typing is nice, and it gets Surf, Defog, Waterfall, and a couple of cute levelup moves (late game U-turn!). I'll move it to E.
I'm admittedly unsure about Goldeen. It's kinda pathetic but Seaking has a decent attack stat and some cute moves. I'll move it to E.
Mantyke comes really late (technically before the 8th gym but it's not gonna do anything there lol), is a bit awkward to evolve, and isn't even good once you do - you will already have HM slaves so it doesn't have a niche there, and its offenses are nothing to write home about. I guess I could see a rise to E but considering how late it comes I'm against it, personally - all it does at that point is beat rocks.

The F-tier, as far as I can see; is reserved for Pokémon that are not just mediocre, but you either have to go extremely out of your way to get (honey trees, feebas) or are so impossibly weak they're an absolute joke (Unown, no-trade Onix). Goldeen at the very least does not seem to fit into either.


One other thing I'm confused about is why Spiritomb is E when it fits into the former 'go extremely out of your way to get' category. And why is '(trade)' put beside it? As far as I know there's no in-game trade for Spiritomb.

Trade is there because you need to connect to another game to get Spiritomb, which is essentially the same as trading for one in terms of requirements.
I can see Spiritomb as a bit higher than it currently is, actually. 92 offenses aren't bad by any means, and Sucker Punch/Shadow Sneak are nice to alleviate the speed problem to an extent. Put forward an argument for a rank and it might get moved up - I've not used it myself because of the technical restrictions :/

 

[Roseguardin]

Going underground enough times to encounter Spiritomb only takes about ten minutes, so I don't think it's that hard. If going underground really is a waste of time, then shouldn't Cranidos drop a few tiers?

Because Cranidos doesn't necessitate you to connect with other people and you can get it without needing to go up and down repeatedly. Not to mention that unlike in some other games Fossils are really easy to revive and not the rarest of items in the Underground.

Also, re: Steelix discussion above, I would like to point out that although Steelix is not the only evolved form that can be caught in the wild, it is to my knowledge the only trade evolution that can be obtained in the wild. You can't catch Scizor, Machamp, Gengar, etc. in the wild but you can catch this, so I think that's a fair argument to ranking it separately.

 

[HotFuzzBall]

Because Cranidos doesn't necessitate you to connect with other people and you can get it without needing to go up and down repeatedly. Not to mention that unlike in some other games Fossils are really easy to revive and not the rarest of items in the Underground.

Also, re: Steelix discussion above, I would like to point out that although Steelix is not the only evolved form that can be caught in the wild, it is to my knowledge the only trade evolution that can be obtained in the wild. You can't catch Scizor, Machamp, Gengar, etc. in the wild but you can catch this, so I think that's a fair argument to ranking it separately.

you can catch Gengar at the Old Chateau only if you have a GBA insertion (I believe it needed to be Emerald to work)