Pokémon Firered & Leafgreen In-Game Tier Discussion

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Hey guys, I'm new here and want to help. After reading through the last page I'm thinking of testing Bellsprout, Drowzee, Voltorb, Vulpix and Staryu. Does that sound good, or should I maybe remove one of these? Since I never did this I'm not sure if it would be best to go with 4 or 5 Pokémon.
Yo, welcome to smogon! Yeah that's a fine lineup to test since I don't see any other tests for then in this thread. 4 or 5 pokemon is fine, no big advantage to using a 4 mon team over a 5 mon team other than 4 mons being a little faster. Good luck on the run!
 
Hey guys, I'm new here and want to help. After reading through the last page I'm thinking of testing Bellsprout, Drowzee, Voltorb, Vulpix and Staryu. Does that sound good, or should I maybe remove one of these? Since I never did this I'm not sure if it would be best to go with 4 or 5 Pokémon.
Yeah, go for it! Colteor basically said everything I would
 
Okay, here are my first logs! Let me know if I can improve anything.

Bellsprout, Drowzee, Voltorb, Vulpix, Staryu

Bellsprout: Naughty (+ atk, - sp. def)
Drowzee: Quiet (+ sp. atk, - speed)
Voltorb: Hasty (+ speed, - defense)
Vulpix: Rash (+ sp. atk, - sp. def)

TMs used:

Bellsprout - Bullet Seed, Return, Giga Drain
Drowzee - Brick Break


I tested both Bellsprout and Weepinbell.

Bellsprout (lv. 20): Staryu outspeeds, but it is 2hkoed by Vine Whip (I had to use 3 since Misty used a Super Potion). Water Pulse deals very little damage, seems to be a 4hko (my Bellsprout has a -sp def. nature, not sure if that matters). Starmie is 3hkoed by Vine Whip but also 3hkoes it with Water Pulse and outspeeds it. Shaky matchup, guaranteed win against Staryu but needs to get lucky with Sleep Powder to win against Starmie.

Weepinbell (lv. 21): Staryu outspeeds it but is 1hkoed or 2hkoed by Vine Whip (depends on the roll) and barely deals any damage with Water Pulse. Starmie outspeeds but needs 4 Water Pulses to ko and is koed by 3 Vine Whips. However, you can still lose to confusion hax. Growth makes it way easier: after 1 Growth, Staryu is a guaranteed 1hko with Vine Whip and Starmie is a guaranteed 2hko, but you might still lose because of confusion. Decent matchup, would be great if confusion wasn't a factor.

I tested both Drowzee and Hypno.

Weepinbell (lv. 24, 25 after Pidgeotto): Pidgeotto is 2hkoed by Acid and only 3hkos with Gust. Kadabra outspeeds and 2hkos with Confusion while it is 1hkoed by Acid. If Weepinbell is at full HP or he uses something other than Confusion you win. Charmeleon outspeeds and 2hkos with Ember while you 2hko with Acid. Raticate is 2hkoed by Acid, it outspeeds you but Hyper Fang is only a 3hko. Good matchup against everything except Charmeleon.

Drowzee (lv. 23, 24 after Kadabra): Pidgeotto is 3hkoed by Confusion and barely does any damage. Raticate is dangerous. It 3hkoes with Hyper Fang, but will most likely 2hko due to Pidgeotto weakening you a bit. You need to get lucky with Hypnosis. Confusion is a 3hko. Kadabra is 2hkoed by Headbutt and can't do anything to you. Charmeleon is 4hkoed by Confusion and doesn't deal too much damage. Good matchup against everything except Raticate which needs some luck to beat.

Hypno (lv. 26): Confusion is a 2hko on everything except Kadabra which is 1hkoed by Headbutt. All of them do laughable damage. Great matchup.

Again, I tested Drowzee and Hypno.

Weepinbell (lv. 25): Acid is a 2hko on Voltorb, a 1hko on Pikachu and a 3hko on Raichu, almost a 2hko. Raichu can deal decent damage with Quick Attack, but you will most likely win unless he gets lucky with Double Team and paralysis hax. Good matchup.

Drowzee (lv. 24): Confusion is a 3hko on Voltorb, a 2hko on Pikachu and 4hko on Raichu. Great against Voltorb and Pikachu. Struggles against Raichu but can win with some luck.

Hypno (lv. 26, 27 after Voltorb): Confusion is a 2hko on Voltorb, a 1hko on Pikachu and a 3hko on Raichu. None of them do any decent damage. Great matchup.

Victreebel (lv.29): All of her team is 3hkoed by Return (I don't know what level my Victreebel's happiness is at). They can't touch you at all unless they get lucky with defense drops from Acid. Good matchup.

Hypno (lv. 29, 30 after Victreebel): Confusion is a 2hko on her entire team and they barely do any damage to you (their best move is Giga Drain which deals around 20 damage). Great matchup.

Electrode (lv. 30): Spark is a 5hko on Victreebel and Vileplume and a 3hko on Tangela. Sonic Boom isn't any better. Plus they can actually hurt you with Giga Drain which heals them which means you will need more than 5 Sparks. You can use Self Destruct to 1hko 1 of them but that's the best thing Electrode can do in this battle. Bad matchup.

Ninetales (lv. 29, 30 after Tangela): Flamethrower 1hkos everything lol

Victreebel (lv. 29): Giga Drain is a 1hko on Onix and Rhyhorn. Kangaskhan outspeeds and 3hkos you with Mega Punch while you 4hko with Return, but you can win if it wastes turns using Bite and Tail Whip and you have Sleep Powder which basically guarantees a victory if it hits. Great matchup.

Hypno (lv. 29, 30 after Kangaskhan): Brick Break is a 3hko on Onix and Kangaskhan and a 2hko on Rhyhorn, but Kangaskhan outspeeds and 3hkos with Mega Punch. Onix does pitiful damage to you, so you can use Meditate 4 times and sweep with Brick Break. If you don't want to use the Brick Break TM on Hypno, Onix and Rhyhorn are easy to defeat with Confusion/Psychic, but you might need to use Hypnosis on Kangaskhan. Good matchup.

Electrode (lv. 30): Sonic Boom is a 3hko on Onix and a 4hko on Rhyhorn. Both are really weak so you definitely win. Spark is a 5hko on Kangaskhan. It 3hkos with Mega Punch. A good matchup overall, not excellent since you don't 1/2hko anything and Kangaskhan can be trouble if it goes for Mega Punch. However, it often goes for weaker moves and Spark has a high chance to paralyze, so you most likely win.

Ninetales (lv. 30): Flamethrower is a 2/3hko on Onix depending on the roll while its Rock Throw seems to be only a 5hko and it often goes for other stuff. Flamethrower is a 2hko on Rhyhorn and it does laughable damage. Flamethrower is a 3hko on Kangaskhan and it 3hkos with Mega Punch. Since Ninetales outspeeds you should win. Good matchup.


Bellsprout: It has a rough start, but once it gets Acid and then Return later on it starts dealing good damage. It needs lots of TMs to work because its level up moveset is lacking, but the Grass-type TMs aren't contested. C seems appropriate but maybe it'll surprise me.

Drowzee: I'm thinking it might deserve B. Even as a Drowzee it is pretty strong, and as Hypno it hasn't had any bad matchups yet. It's definitely not A since it often fails to get 1hkos due to not-great Special Attack but I'm thinking C might be too low.

Voltorb: It's lack of power is very evident. As a Voltorb it failed to 1hko a Goldeen that was the same level as it. However, it's not utterly useless, so C seems appropriate.

Vulpix: It has been great so far. Early Flamethrower is really good. Even as a Vulpix it often gets 2hkos with Ember and it has Confuse Ray and Will-o-wisp to deal with foes that would give it trouble otherwise. I think it might be a candidate for C at least.
 
I've used everything in FireRed and LeafGreen and even have logs for most mon.

I even made this (tho you should take it with a grain of salt inside ranks because it's hard to rank within a rank lol)

my-image.png


I'll try to comment quickly on every mon and here is my ranking :

S-tier
- :alakazam: Abra (Trade)
Alakazam is really amazing and wins in most matchup.
- :kadabra: Abra (No trade)
Kadabra I feel is really similar to Alakazam. It has the same matchup as Alakazam except for a worse Lance (you can't really setup with Reflect on Gyarados and Aerodactyl outspeeds) and champion (Extreme Speed from Arcanine does too much)
- :jynx: Jynx
Jynx is bar none the best mon in the game. Even against Blaine you can set up 2 Calm Mind on Growlithe and win.
- :mr. mime: Mr. Mime
Mr. Mime is another broken Psychic. While it doesn't learn Recover, learning Thunderbolt and Magic Leaf is great and having always the Timid nature makes it almost as good as Alakazam.

A-tier
- :bulbasaur: Bulbasaur
Bulbasaur is the best starter. While it has some matchup, it's extremly good at overcoming it and is always consitent
- :charmander: Charmander
It's borderline B-tier so I wouldn't mind it staying there but the fact that it fares better than expected in bad matchup can make it A-tier
- :mankey: Mankey
Mankey and Primeape were great. It's cool to have a mon that beat Brock if you opt for Charmander as a starter and it's pretty good for most major battles except for Koga and champion. The fact that it can beat Agatha reliably with Aerial Ace make it better than Hitmonlee imo
- :nidoran-m: Nidoran-M
Nidoking is pretty good. It's one of the best mon in the early good before falling in late game. It's still worth of A-rank because it always contributes
- :snorlax: Snorlax
Snorlax is great. It's incredibly bulky and can outstall in nearly every major battle. Only bad matchup is Bruno (hich isn't too hard anyway)
- :squirtle: Squirtle
Squirtle is another solid starter, consistent throughout the game and that always contributes, except for Lorelei.
- :staryu: Staryu
Staryu is among the best mon for the end game. It's found late and requires several tms but the fact that's it's easy to train in Cinnabar and that it sweeps easily the league make it A-tier
- :vaporeon: Vaporeon
Vaporeon is really amazing, with great stats, being a better Blastoise available later. Unlike Flareon and Jolteon, it has a great level up movepool and great stats all across. The fact that it's found rather late and struggles vs Eika and Lorelei prevent it from being S-tier.

B-tier

- :articuno: Articuno
Articuno was cool for the end game, destroying Giovanni and Lance while having a good matchup against the rest (except for Blaine and Bruno due to Rock Tomb)
- :clefairy: Clefairy
Clefable is like Nidoking, being amazing in the begening and average in late game due to having average stats. It has an outstanding movepool but its stats just aren't good enough to be A-tier because it's not that good for the elite 4.
- :doduo: Doduo
Doduo was really fun to use, destroying most things. It's frail and has a lackluster matchup vs Lorelei but was overall really nice to use.
- :exeggcute: Exeggcute
Exeggcute is cool. It's annoying to grind to level 37 as Exeggcute but it has stab psychic and Exeguttor make up for it. Just like Venusaur SleepSeed is broken and stab Psychic is amazing.
- :gengar: Gastly (Trade)
Gengar was another fun mon to use. It has great coverage with Thunderbolt Psychic Giga Drain and Shadow Punch. I don't feel it deserves A-tier though because it's found out mid-game, requires ton of tms and isn't the best against Blaine.
- :hitmonlee: Hitmonlee
Hitmonlee was great, setting up Bulk Up and winning most of the time. It comes rather late and can't beat Agatha reliably unlike Primeape but was pretty good.
- :growlithe: Growlithe
Grolithe was cool having great stats all across and Intimidate. It helped most of the time with a great flamethrower.
- :psyduck: Psyduck
Psyduck, just like Slowbro and Starmie is one of the best mon for the late game, winning in most major battles with Calm Mind Surf and Ice Beam. It doesn't warrant A-tier though because it's rather hard to find and training it isn't easy
- :lapras: Lapras
Lapras, despite coming underleveled was pretty consistent, helping a lot for Blaine, Giovanni and Lance. It has great coverage and was a solid water type
- :machamp: Machop (Trade)
Machamp is good, being really strong and bulky. Its speed is a major hinderance compared to other fighting types like Hitmonlee and Primeape against Blaine for instance, making it a bit worse than them.
- :magikarp: Magikarp
Gyarados was really great. While training Magikarp is painful, Gyarados is worth it. It easily beats Misty, Blaine Giovani etc. You can even beat Bruno by setting up Dragon Dance on Onix as it does nothing lol
- :nidoran-f: Nidoran-F
Nidoqueen is a tad worse than Nidoqueen. The extra power is important, for example Nidoking can 2HKO Lorelei's Dewgong while Nidoqueen can't and the speed is cool for mons like Blaine's rapidash. It's still quite good though and a solid B-tier.
- :slowpoke: Slowpoke
Slowpoke was among the best late game mon, being able to take down rather easily the entire elite 4. It's really close to A-rank but the fact that it's not easy to find and awful to train prevent it from it.
- :spearow: Spearow
Spearow was great. It destroyed Misty, surprisingly Surge and Erika. Afterwards, it became less dominant although still good for Giovanni (outside Rhyhorn) and Agatha and it can still put work. If it had a better late game, it would be A-tier
- :tentacool: Tentacool
Tentacool was better than expected. It's a really fast water-types which helps for Sabrina despite the type disadvantage. I found it perfomed better than other water types like Seaking and Seadra against her. Clear Body is great for Bruno and great special defense always helps.
- :zapdos: Zapdos
Zapdos was really great, performing well in every matchup except for GIovanni. It's reliant on Thunderbolt but outright wins most of the time or puts a heavy dent.

C-tier
- :aerodactyl: Aerodactyl
Aerodactyl was really great. While you get it at level 5, it's incredibly great, having only great machup except for a few mons. The fact that it beats easily Blaine, Sabrina, Giovanni (except for Rhyhorn which are easy to take down anyway), Lorelei most of the time, Bruno (outside of Onixes which are taken down easily), Agatha, Lance and helping a lot for champion, make it C-tier.
- :bellsprout: Bellsprout
Bellsprout just like other grass-types was really matchup reliant, either outright winning or doing nothing, so C-rank is perfect for it.
- :caterpie: Caterpie
Buterfree was cool to use. Sleep is broken and Coumpound Eye helps a lot. With Giga Drain, Psychic and Aerial/Ace/SilverWind you do well vs Erika, Koga,Sabrina, Giovanni, Bruno and kinda Agatha and you can always support your team with Sleep.
- :dratini: Dratini
Dratini was better than expected. Dragon Rage is great early game and a dragon type as well as great movepool help for Erika and Blaine. Dragonite is a monster, helping a lot for Lorelei (which never seems to attack lol), easily winning vs Bruno, great vs Agatha and Lance. Really cool mon, wworth training.
- :drowzee: Drowzee
Hypno was fine but Drowzee was really bad and awful to train. Even then, unlike other Psychic Hypno lacks power, not being able to OHKO Lorelei's Lapras at +6 for instance so C-tier is fine for it.
- :electabuzz: Electabuzz
Electabuzz was alright. It's a decently bulky electric type but it's neither strong nor fast enough to be ranked higher than other electric.
- :farfetch Farfetch'd
Farfetch'd is actually decent, learning Swords Dance naturally. Boosted exp and being a hm slave is cool. If you forget Cut you can even beat Agatha wth Swords Dance and Agility.
- :flareon: Flareon
Flareon is cool, doing well vs Erika, Sabrina, Koga and Agatha. It requires lots of tms though so C-tier is fine.
- :haunter: Gastly (No trade)
Haunter is cool, just like Gengar it has great coverage and lots of good matchup. It's a bit worse than its evolution tough because it's a bit weaker and slower, meaning it's worse for Lance, rival's Alakazam and Sabrina.
- :golem: Geodude (No trade)
Golem was alright, easily winning vs Surge and having a good matchup vs Agatha and Koga. It can be a liability in some matchup though so C-tier is fine.
- :goldeen: Goldeen
Seaking is just a generic water type, it beats easily Blaine, Giovanni and is good vs Lance, rival's fire type and Rhydon.
- :hitmonchan: Hitmonchan
Hitmonchan is worse than Hitmonlee because it's weaker and that matters a lot for Erika and Blaine, sometimes you will need 2 bulk up instead of 1. The speed difference is also important.
- :horsea: Horsea
Horsea is another generic water types with the same good matchup.
- :jolteon: Jolteon
Jolteon is just a generic electric type, being fast and quite strong with Thunderbolt as well as having nice special bulk.
- :krabby: Krabby
Krabby is a cool water type in the sense that it does better against Lorelei and Mud Shot can be useful.
- :magnemite: Magnemite
Magneton was except for Zapdos the best electric types, being really strong and having the nice steel type. I don't feel it warrants B-tier though because it struggles vs Blaine, Giovanni and Bruno is found late and isn't bulky enough.
- :meowth: Meowth
Meowth is an unique mon with Pickup (sad that Persian doesn't have it) and Pay Day that can act as a Cut user. The fact that it supports the team (it's nice for example with Nidoking which needs several tms) and is fast and decently strong make it C-tier.
- :oddish: Oddish
Vileplume is just like Victreebel, except relying on Absorb is awful.
- :pikachu: Pikachu
Pikachu and afterwards Raichu were fine. They have a great Thunderbolt learnt naturally but otherwise not much else except for good speed. I feel C-tier is better because except for Lorelei, Lance and sometimes Misty (you need to have a good level because Pikachu is frail), it doesn't help all that much.
- :pinsir: Pinsir
Pinsir was actually rather good with Bulk Up (later Swords Dance), Brick Break, Dig and Strength. Hypercutter is a nice ability and you can take down Growlithe, Ponyta and Rapidash and doing 60% to Arcanine with Dig thanks to it. It also fares well vs Lorelei with Swords Dance, setting up on Cloyster easily
- :poliwag: Poliwag
Poliwag is another water type. The fighting type is harmful for Sabrina and Lance's dragonite but helps a lot for Lorelei.
- :scyther: Scyther
Scyther was actually better than expected. Getting Swords Dance is amazing and it's not too hard to set up. It easily beats Erika can win vs Koga, can setup on Dugtrio and win vs Giovanni, beat Agatha and Lorelei by setting up on Cloyster.
- :seel: Seel
Seel was alright, the ice type and bulk was really great for Lance and Thick Fat is great for Blaine. It's just as good as other water types and better than Cloyster imo.
- :shellder: Shellder
Cloyster I felt was the worse water type due to having terrible special defense which sucks for Lance. The physical bulk and Ice type is nice though, being for instance able to take Lance's Dragonite, so C-tier is fine.
- :tangela: Tangela
Tangela just like Vileplume and Victreebel was really matchup reliant. Having better physical bulk was nice though.
- :venonat: Venonat
Venomoth was really cool to use, being a Buterfree with better stats and either helping a lot, winning or supporting the team with sleep
- :voltorb: Voltorb
Electrode is the worst electric, being weaker than others. I feel c-tier is fine because it outspeeds everything, which is nice for Lance's Aerodactyl and Explosion is helpful to take down something.

D-rank

- :cubone: Cubone
Cubone is bad. It has a good matchup vs Surge if you face it later but otherwise doesn't help much and is quite weak.
- :diglett: Diglett
Dugtrio wasn't good outside of destroying Surge, beating Sabrina and koing Alakazam vs rival. It's just not strong enough, is incredibly frail and doesn't have good matchup
- :ekans: Ekans
Ekans was usable, intimidate and glare are great. It can screech and attack but between unacurracy and lack of power it won't be really reliable
- :graveler: Geodude (No trade)
Aside from Surge, Graveler wasn't good. It can somestimes explode or kill a mon but won't accomplish much.
- :grimer: Grimer
Muk has great bulk and power but lacks Sleep Talk like Snorlax. It can help taking down 1 or 2 mons but won't do much outside of that
- :jigglypuff: Jigglypuff
Wigglytuff was among the worst mon. While it has an outstanding movepool it's just way too weak and frail. The fact that it's helpful in the begening prevents it from being E-rank but it's barely usable
- :kabuto: Kabuto
Kabutops was actually quite good. It easily wins against Blaine and like Omastar can pull a Rain Dance Swift Swim and wins vs Giovanni (even Nidoqueen can't take a rain Surf). Lorelei is a good matchup, Agatha is alright and it helps for Lance.
- :kangaskhan: Kangaskhan
Kangaskhan was worse than expected. It's hard to catch and comes at a low level. It doesn't have many good matchup, it struggles with Koga, Blaine and the elite 4. It can still put work but most of the time it won't be worth using.
- :koffing: Koffing
Weezing was quite bad, not being able to do much while losing to special Attack. It was great vs Bruno but that's about it.
- :machoke: Machop (no trade)
Machop wasn't good. Machamp was way bulkier and stronger. This mattered a lot against Erika, Giovanni and Lorelei.
- :magmar: Magmar
Magmar is found late and even then it's not especially useful, as it doesn't have good matchup. It can help taking down a mon for the elite 4 or two so D-rank is fine
- :moltres: Moltres
Moltres comes way too late and doesn't have fare well most of the time. It helps vs Giovanni except for Rhyhorn, Cloyster and Jynx for Lorelei etc. It's helpful but there are moreuseful mon to use.
- :omanyte: Omanyte
Despite coming at level 5 Omanyte was great, destroying Blaine Giovanni, Agatha while helping vs Lance and champion. Coming at a low level is sad but it's worth using.
- :paras: Paras
Paraz was really bad, it doesn't learn useful moves and it's hard to train (you lose to Zubat/Golbat that are everywhere). Spore is great though and it at least has a good matchup vs Misty.
- :pidgey: Pidgey
Pidgeot was sadly worse than Dodrio and Fearow. It's way weaker, which matters in matchup like Bruno and it relies on Fly which is bad for Agatha. Unlike Fearow it can't beat Misty or Surge easily.
- :ponyta: Ponyta
Galopa was alright with SolarBeam for Lorelei but it just come way too late to be useful.
- :rattata: Rattata
Ratticate was good in the begining but it's just way too frail to be useful after silph co.
- :rhyhorn: Rhyhorn
Rhyhorn is a pain to train and even then Rhydon isn't exactly good, it's just a better Golem, which isn't amazing by itself. Rhydon is good for Agatha Lance Dragonair, Aerodactyl, Charizard, Pidgeot and that's about it.
- :sandshrew: Sandshrew
Sandslash was really bad. Dig is a terrible move and you lose badly to Giovanni due to it. Blaine isn't a good matchup due to double intimidate and bad special bulk. The elite 4 also isn't good.
- :tauros: Tauros
Tauros like Kangaskhan is hard to catch, comes at a rather low level and doesn't have many good matchup.
- :vulpix: Vulpix
Ninetales wasn't good. Vulpix needs to be caught at a low level, otherwise it won't have Ember and will be hard to train. Even then, Ninetales is weak (it can miss the ohko on Koga's Koffing) and incredibly frail on the physical side.
- :weedle: Weedle
Beedril as actually alright. It easily wins vs Misty and Surge and can always contribute to a battle.
- :zubat: Zubat
Zubat was painful to train and Golbat wasn't exactly good. It was alright vs Misty and easily wins against Giovanni, so D-rank is fine.

E-tier

- :chansey: Chansey
Chansey is hard to catch and except for toxic stall vs Lorelei it's not useful.
- :ditto: Ditto
Ditto is the worst mon
- :lickitung: Lickitung
Lickitung is a worse Wigglytuff, that is already barely D-tier
- :onix: Onix
Except for late Surge Onix is way too weak to be useful
- :porygon: Porygon
It's impossible to get. You have Sharpen and Agility but the stats aren't good enough to pull it off


Now, onto my nominations :

Kadabra for S-rank :

Kadabra is pretty similar to Alakazam honestly. Alakazam is obviously better with better stats and learning Calm Mind naturally. However, Kadabra has most of the time same matchup. It easily wins vs Surge, Erika, Koga Blaine and Giovanni. Just like Alakazam, it can't win vs Misty. Sabrina is beatable, according to moves she uses. You win vs Lorelei and Bruno. Agatha is also good except for last Gengar which outspeeds. Lance is worse than Alakazam because you can't set up on Gyarados Hyper Beam like Alakazam and Aerodactyl outspeeds. Even champion is alright, you can try to setup on Pidgeot with Reflect and win. Overall, Kadabra as really good and S-tier looks right for him, even though it's not as good as other S-tier.

Charmander for A-rank :

I don't mind it staying B-rank because it's pretty borderline. But, I feel it's more A-rank because it's incredibly good once it gets Flamethrower and even in bad matchup like Misty and Brock, it fares better than expected.

Mankey for A-rank :

Mankey is the best fighting type. It's great vs Brock, decent vs Misty, good vs Erika with Aerial Ace, alright vs Giovanni.the elite 4 is quite good, except for Slowbro it does well against Lorelei, you can set up and win against Bruno if Onix doesn't use Rock Tomb. You can win against Agatha by setting up Bulk Up and using Aerial Ace. I feel it's A-tier because it's a bit better than other fighting-types with a good Agatha matchup and being available for Brock.

Hitmonlee for B-rank :

I don't mind Hitmonlee staying in A because it's really solid. I just feel the fact that it's found in mid-game, requires several tms and doesn't always perform well (like against Koga and Blaine) make it more B-tier

Magneti for C-rank :

Magneton is more worthy of C-rank imo. It's found late and has a bad matchup against Blaine, Giovanni and Bruno. A problem I had with Magneton is its lack of bulk. Lorelei seems to be a good matchup but between needing Thunder to OHKO (or metal sound + Thunderbolt), taking a hit from Lapras and 2 from Jynx you can get koed in a normally favorable matchup. It's the same for Agatha, between confusion and numerous hits, you're not guaranteed to win. If it had more bulk and was more consistent, it'd be B-rank.

Pikachu for C-rank :

Most B-rank are really good but Raichu isn't tbh. Pikachu phase isn't good because it's frail and not strong and even then aside from natural Thunderbolt Raichu doesn't have much. It's good in some matchup like Lorelei but B-rank is too high because it doesn't help all that much.

Electabuzz for C-rank :

Electabuzz is nowhere near B-rank. It's just a regular electric type with nice bulk , which helps for Lorelei. Otherwise, it's not that useful, it can always contribute but won't outright sweep. I feel except for Zapdos all electric types should be C-rank and even then Electabuzz isn't the best one.

Golem for C-rank :

Golem is quite frankly not that good. It hardly loses to Misty, Erika and Lorelei. It's good for Surge and that's about it. Koga is reliant on rollout accuracy. You lose to Blaine due to double intimidate and Giovanni wins. The elite 4 isn't good except for Agatha and even then Arbok has Intimidate and Iron Tail.

Seel for C-rank :

Dewgong is just as good as others water types. It's not hard to find and Thick fat makes up for the lack of fire resist. The good bulk is especially nice for Lance. Otherwise it has the same matchup as other water types (wins vs Blaine and Giovanni, help a lot vs Lance and the same mon vs champion).

Aerodactyl for C-rank :

Aerodactyl comes at a low level and late but otherwise it woule be a solid A-tier. It just performs way too well, only having good matchups except for like Rhyhorn/Rhydon and training it isn't exactly hard because there are lots of trainers in silph co. Despite coming at level 5, it's really worth using, Blaine, Sabrina, Giovanni, Lorelei, somewhat Bruno, Agatha, Lance and champion are great matchups.

Farfetch'd for C-rank :

Farfetch'd is surprisingly decent. Learning Swords Dance naturally is amazing and boosted exp is great. It's actually potent against Surge as you can win with crits, you win vs Erika, you can win against KOga thanks to Keen Eye and sometimes Sabrina. Afterwards it doesn't fare well due to bad stats (though if you choose to forgo Cut you can Agility and Swords Dance to win against Agatha). The fact that it's quite good in mid-game as well as being an hm slave make me feel it's worth C-tier, especially as it's way better than others tuff in C.

Scyther for C-rank :

Scyther was surprisingly correct. Just like Farfectch'd natural Swords Dance is amazing and it has the same good matchup against Erika, Koga and Sabrina. It's also surprisingly good against Lorelei, if you manage to setup on Cloyster and Giovanni if you set up on Dugtrio. Agatha is a win with Agility+Swords Dance+Aerial Ace. Scyther isn't the best mon ever but C looks fine because it has good matchup.

Cubone, Diglett and Sandshrew for D-rank :

The three are pretty similar. They have an amazing matchup against Surge and that's about it. The three are weak due to Dugtrio average attack and Marowak/Sandslash reliance on Dig most of the game. Giovanni isn't even a good matchup because Dugtrio is too weak and Dig from Sandslash/Marowak doesn't work well with Earthquake... Blaine also isn't good because of double Intimidate. The elite 4 is awful, Lorelei wreck them, Bruno will easily overwhelm (not to mention Counter from Chan), Agatha is hard due to unaccurate moves and Lance destroys them. Champion also isn't good. Honestly, they weren't good outside of Surge and a liability most of the time.

Graveler for D-rank :

Similarly to other grounds Graveler isn't good. It's obviously amazing for Surge but outside of that it doesn't do much.

Machoke for D-rank :

Machoke is quite bad. It's not bulky enough nor strong enough to win. Unlike Machamp, you lose to Erika, Koga, Blaine and Giovanni. Even Lorelei isn't that good due to the bad bulk and lack of power. Bruno can be alright if you setup on Onix but that's about it. Agatha is a no as well as Lance and champion outside of Rhydon. It's just a way worse Machamp without any good matchup except for like rocket hideout Giovanni and sometimes Bruno

Kabuto for D-rank :

Kabuto was surprisingly good, easily beating Blaine. I used Rain Dance and Surf similarly to Omanyte so even Giovanni wasn't a problem. Lorelei was also good due to rock type and ice resist and Lance alright (you can take out Gyarados and Aerodactyl). Against champion, you can take out Pidgeot, Rhydon and the fire type. While it's less good than Omanyte, Kabutops was still pretty good and D-rank looks fine for it.

Thanks for reading !
 
Here's my second batch of logs:

Bellsprout, Drowzee, Voltorb, Vulpix, Staryu

Bellsprout: Naughty (+ atk, - sp. def)
Drowzee: Quiet (+ sp. atk, - speed)
Voltorb: Hasty (+ speed, - defense)
Vulpix: Rash (+ sp. atk, - sp. def)
Staryu: Careful (+ sp. def, - sp. atk)

TMs/tutors used:

Bellsprout - Bullet Seed, Return, Giga Drain
Drowzee - Brick Break, Shadow Ball
Voltorb - Thunder Wave, Thunder
Staryu - Water Pulse, Psychic, Surf


Victreebel (lv. 29, 30 after Exeggcute): Return is a 1hko on Kadabra, a 3hko on Gyarados due to Intimidate and a 2hko on everything else. Charmeleon deals big damage with Ember and Gyarados deals decent damage with Trash. You can beat it with Giga Drain which is also a 3hko and heals. Great against ⅘ and can win against Charmeleon too.

Hypno (lv. 29, 30 after Gyarados): Confusion is a 3hko on everything and 4hko on Gyarados, but they can't do much to you, except Gyarados with Trash. Brick Break is a 2hko on Kadabra. Good matchup since the only one that gives it trouble is Gyarados and it is still beatable. I assume Psychic would make it even better but I'm saving the TM for Staryu.

Electrode (lv. 30, 31 after Kadabra): Spark is a 1hko on Pidgeotto, Gyarados and Kadabra. It is a 3hko on Exeggcute and a 2hko on Charmeleon. Excellent matchup.

Ninetales (lv. 30, 31 after Pidgeotto): Flamethrower is a 1hko on Pidgeotto, Exeggcute and Kadabra, a 3hko on Gyarados and a 2hko on Charmeleon. The only one that can give you trouble is Gyarados with Trash and you can use Will-o-wisp to lower it's attack. Excellent matchup.

Victreebel (lv. 38): Pidgeot outspeeds and 2hkos with Wing Attack while you 3hko with Return. You need to get lucky with Sleep Powder to win. Giga Drain does pitiful damage, it can make you survive one more Wing Attack but it's better to use Return. Return is a 3hko on Gyarados after Intimidate. It can't deal much damage to you. Exeggcute is 2hkoed by Return and 3hkos with Confusion. Alakazam is 1hkoed by Return. It's only damaging move is Future Sight so it's a guaranteed win. Charizard outspeeds and 1hkos with Flamethrower. Good against 3/5 mons.

Hypno (lv. 37, 38 after the first ko): This is by far its worst matchup yet. All of his Pokémon are 3/4hkoed by Psychic and all except Exeggcute outspeed it. Exeggcute and Alakazam are guaranteed wins since they can't touch you but the other 3 are shaky.

Electrode (lv. 37, 38 after Pidgeot): Spark is a 2hko on Pidgeot and a 1hko on Gyarados. It is only a 4hko on Exeggcute but Confusion barely does any damage. Alakazam is 3hkoed by Spark and Charizard is 2hkoed. It 2hkos you with Flamethrower but you outspeed it. Pretty good matchup.

Ninetales (lv. 38): Flamethrower is a 2hko on Pidgeot and Alakazam and a 1hko on Exeggcute. Gyarados and Charizard are bad as they take very little damage and deal good damage to you. You have to cheese them with Confuse Ray/Will-o-wisp or hope the AI is dumb.

Starmie (lv. 37, 38 after Alakazam): Pidgeot is 3hkoed by Surf and 4hkos with Wing Attack. Surf would probably 2hko if my Starmie didn't have a special attack lowering nature. Psychic is a 3hko on Gyarados. Surf is a 3hko on Exeggcute, a 3hko on Alakazam after it uses a Calm Mind (it always went for Calm Mind first turn) and a 2hko on Charizard.

Victreebel (lv. 40): Return is a 2hko on Nidorino and a 3hko on Nidoqueen and Kangaskhan. Giga Drain is a 1hko on Rhyhorn. Nidoqueen deals significant damage with Body Slam but you'll likely win as it often wastes turns using weaker moves. Kangaskhan is luck-dependant as it 2hkos you with Mega Punch.

Hypno (lv. 40): Psychic is a 1hko on Nidorino, a 2hko on Nidoqueen and Rhyhorn, and a 3hko on Kangaskhan. The only thing that deals a lot of damage to you is Kangaskhan's Mega Punch. Everything except for Rhyhorn is faster than you. This can be a problem as Nidoqueen won't ko you but might leave you weak enough for Kangaskhan to do so.

Electrode (lv. 40): Spark is a 3hko on Nidorino and a 4hko on Kangaskhan. It deals big damage with Mega Punch but you can paralyze it with Thunder Wave to make it pretty easy. Against Nidoqueen and Rhyhorn the best thing you could do is Self Destruct, which leaves Nidoqueen under half health but barely damages Rhyhorn.

Ninetales (lv. 40): Flamethrower is a 2hko on Nidorino and Rhyhorn, a 3hko on Kangaskhan and a 4hko on Nidoqueen. Kangaskhan and Nidoqueen can be dangerous, specially if they lower your defense with Tail Whip, but Will-o-Wisp helps deal with that.

Starmie (lv. 40): Psychic is a 1hko on Nidorino. Surf is a 1hko on Rhyhorn, a 2hko on Nidoqueen and a 3hko on Kangaskhan. Nothing else to say here, it's pretty much a guaranteed win.

Victreebel (lv. 41): The Koffing are 2hkoed by Return. They can Self-Destruct which leaves Victreebel under half health. Muk is 3hkoed by Return while it 4hkos with Sludge. It can use Acid Armor to sharply raise it's defense which is annoying. Weezing is 3hkoed by Return while also 3hkoing with Sludge but you outspeed it. Not the best matchup since you don't 1hko anything and you'll probably need to heal because of Self-Destruct but still good. The poison immunity is great.

Hypno (lv. 41): Psychic is a 1hko on the Koffing and Weezing and a 2hko on Muk. Guaranteed win.

Electrode (lv. 41, 42 after the first Koffing): Spark is a 2hko on the Koffing. It is a 4hko on Muk, who can use Toxic and spam Minimize to lower your health really fast. It's a good idea to use Thunder Wave to prevent it from doing that. Spark is a 3hko on Weezing and it 3hkos with Sludge. You'll have to use healing items for this because nothing is 1hkoed and Toxic is a bitch. I assume it would be way easier with Thunderbolt but I didn't have money for it.

Ninetales (lv. 41): Flamethrower is a 1hko on the Koffing, a 3hko on Muk and a 2hko on Weezing. Sludge doesn't deal much damage. Really easy battle.

Starmie (lv. 41): Exactly the same as Hypno.

Victreebel (lv. 41): Kadabra outspeeds and almost 1hkos with Psybeam, you 1hko with Return. Mr. Mime is 1hkoed by Return. Alakazam outspeeds and 1hkos with Psychic. You outspeed Venomoth and 2hko with Return while it 3hkos with Psybeam. Surprisingly good, it can beat everything except Alakazam.

Hypno (lv. 41): Everything is faster than you, but that doesn't matter as they can't touch you and you 1hko everything with Shadow Ball/Psychic.

Electrode (lv. 41, 42 after Kadabra): I made sure to always have Light Screen set up. Kadabra used Calm Mind on the first turn. Thunder almost 1hkoed, I assume it would be a 1hko if it didn't use Calm Mind. Mr. Mime was defeated by Thunder + Spark. It did very little damage with Psybeam. Venomoth went down the same way and it's Psybeam damage was laughable. With Light Screen, Alakazam's Psychic deals around 40 damage. Thunder + Spark isn't enough, so you have to hit 2 Thunders which is a bit unreliable. Once again I assume it would be easier with Thunderbolt but I still didn't have enough money. Overall way easier than I expected it to be, with Light Screen the only thing that poses a threat to you is Alakazam.

Ninetales (lv. 41): Flamethrower can be a 1/2hko on Kadabra depending on the roll. It's a 2hko on Mr. Mime and a 1hko on Venomoth. It's a 3hko on Alakazam after it uses Calm Mind. It will outspeed and 2hko with Psychic after a Calm Mind so you have to hope it wastes turns with other moves.

Starmie (lv. 41, 42 after Venomoth): Surf is a 2hko on all Psychics and Psychic is a 1hko on Venomoth. They can barely damage you since they only have Psychic moves.
 
Mankey for A-rank :

Mankey is the best fighting type. It's great vs Brock, decent vs Misty, good vs Erika with Aerial Ace, alright vs Giovanni.the elite 4 is quite good, except for Slowbro it does well against Lorelei, you can set up and win against Bruno if Onix doesn't use Rock Tomb. You can win against Agatha by setting up Bulk Up and using Aerial Ace. I feel it's A-tier because it's a bit better than other fighting-types with a good Agatha matchup and being available for Brock.
Definitely agree. I've used Mankey in several LeafGreen playthroughs and it's flat out one of the better Pokémon to use for an in game run. Early availability and pretty great stats for a basic stage. Reasonable evolution level of 28. Its coveted TMs/tutors are also very optimally distributed in Kanto. Getting Brick Break before the third Gym (sometimes second if you skip Misty) is huge. It's a pretty good candidate for the Mega Kick and Rock Slide tutors. Cross Chop at level 35 is great; Primeape's Cross Chop actually hits harder than Hitmonlee's Hi Jump Kick.

I'm ok with Hitmonlee in A tier but if it's there, Mankey absolutely should be as well. You get it much earlier and on paper, they're pretty close to even with Primeape trading some raw power for more speed, while being more physically bulky with Hitmonlee having more special bulk. I can't think of a reason why Mankey should be ranked a tier below Hitmonlee.
 
The owner hasn't logged in for quite some time now.

Anyway, I feel that Mankey and Hitmonlee should be in the same tier, heck i even find Mankey better because you get it earlier, meaning you can use it for Brock (which is helpful if your starter is Charmander) and thanks to Aerial Ace, Agatha is a great matchup.

Ground-types (Sandshrew, Cubone, Diglett and Graveler) weren't discussed (except for Texas with Graveler which is well-detailed and explains very well why it's not good) but honestly they are just bad. They obviously are incredible against Surge (although Cubone will only be available if you face it late) but otherwise they won't do much. It would be cool to have inputs about them but from my experience they just lost to every other gym leader. Koga is obviously bad, even Muk due to Minimize and relying on Dig, Sabrina is RNG reliant, Blaine has double intimidate, Giovanni has Earthquake when you use Dig. Lorelei is obviously bad, Bruno will overwhelm them, Agatha will hax and except for Lance Dragonair, they wont't help much. Dugtrio and Graveler are a bit better because the former is fast and the latter has Explosion which both having Magnitude as a somewhat reliable stab but still they will be a liability most of the time.

I don't really mind about some of my previous nominations (Charmander, Magneti, Aerodactyl, Farfetch'd, Scyther, somewhat Pikachu and Kadabra), although it would be great to have input about them especially Kadabra but some mons are clearly in the wrong tier.

Electabuzz is alright to use but is rare, found late, requires several tms and except for Lorelei won't contribute all that much. You can take down three mons against Blaine but you won't outright win, Sabrina is a good matchup and Giovanni is a no. Loreil isn't even a free matchup, it will be really rng dependant, as you can't ohko Lapras nor Dewgong and Jynx requires 2 Thunder and 2hkoes back. You get 2hkoed by fighting-types from Bruno while you only 2hko. Agatha isn't that good due to rng and the fact that Golbat outspeeds and isn't ohkoed by Thunder. Against Lance, you can take down Gyarados and Aerodactyl but will fall to dragons. Champion isn't even a good matchup. It's the same for Raichu, which is a bit worse in the late game but is at least found earlier, learns Thunderbolt naturally and helps vs Misty. Magneton is a bit better than both but it's a bit frail, Lorelei isn't even a guaranteed matchup. Surf from Lapras and 2 Ice Punch from Jynx ko and if Dewgong sets up Hail you'll lose health very quickly. Agatha wasn't good either without a healing item. I noticed that 2 Shadow Punch + Screech + Iron Tail + 2 Shadow Ball koes and between Confuse Ray and evasion, the matchup is far from guaranteed. I don't mind it staying B because it's better than other electric-types but the fact that it's found late, hardly loses to Blaine, Giovanni and Bruno and isn't that good for the elite 4 makes me feel it's more C-tier worthy although i can totaly understant a B-tier, especially after reading Colteore post.

Machoke was honestly pretty bad unlike its evolution because it lacks both power and bulk. It's just too hard to set up and you won't win any matchup reliably. Machamp is great because you can beat Erika, possibly Sabrina according to RNG, contribute against Blaine and Giovanni, helps a lot against Lorelei and Bruno. Machoke will do far less in these matchup because it's way harder to setup Bulk Up. I recommend testing it because on paper it feels alright but is just plain bad in game.

Golem is also way worse than other C-tier. Most B-tier are great mons with issues about availability like Exeguttor or Zapdos. Golem just loses to Misty, Erika and Lorelei without doing anything. It's better than Graveler because it's stronger and faster and hence Koga will be easier but it still has the same problem even though it has more potential than it's pre-evolution it won't help that much and feels closer to someting like Electrode or tangela than Gengar or Gyarados.

Seel in D-rank feels unjust because it's just as good as other water-types. It's the same good matchup against Blaine thanks to Thick Fat, Giovanni and Lance. Bruno is a bad matchup for Water-types in C and it's pretty much the same from Agatha. It's just a generic water types, slighty better than Seadra and Seaking that does well in these matchup. Tbh Dewgong was way better than Cloyster and it can't be a tier below.

Kabuto should be D-rank. While it's not as good as the two other fossils, it's way better than other E-tier and has great utilities. Blaine is a free matchup and against Giovanni you can pull a Rain Dance + Swift Swim set and ohko everything. Rock Slide is great for Lorelei and thanks to alright bulk and typing, Agatha is alright. You do decently against Lance, taking down Gyarados and Aerodactyl.

I'll comment the slate from the previous page.

Jynx should absolutely stay in S-tier, it's bar none the best mon in the game. traded experience makes up for coming in mid-game and it just destroys every opponent, even Blaine.

I agree with Hitmonlee dropping but Nidoking should stay in A. It's just too consistent in early to mid game. Even in late game, you can tailor it and it will always help no matter the matchup (like you can teach it Shadow Ball for Agatha). Nidoqueen is a bit worse because the power matters (Nidoking can 2HKO Lorelei's Dewgong, something Nidoqueen can't do) and speed (which helps for Blaine).

Charmander is really borderline A-tier due to the fact it does better than expected in bad matchup like Borkc or Misty but it's quite tricky to rank.

Clefable is a solid B-tier to me. It's excellent in early to mid-game but starts falling off in late game. You can always tailor it like Nidoking but it's worse against the elite 4 especially Bruno and is a bit too weak.

Growlithe is fine in B-tier, it's way bulkier and stronger than Ninetales. Intimidate is a nice ability that will help a lot.

Lapras is great and has better stats than water-types in C. The superior bulk and power helps vs Sabrina and Agatha and it's overwall more consistent. Likewise Tentacruel is fine in B. Sabrina is better than Seaking or Horsea due to high speed and amazing special bulk. It has the same great matchup against Giovanni and Blaine and Bruno is better due to poison typing, speed and Clear Body.

Bellsprout and Oddish, just like Tangela are fine in C. They are match up based but outright win vs Misty, which can be troublesome, Surge and Giovanni. Sleep is broken and Sunny Beam + Chlorophyll is great for Lorelei and Bruno.

Hypno, I can be wrong but it way quite weak, not even OHKOing Lapras from Lorelei at +6 and the Drowzee phase wasn't good.

Hitmonchan is way weaker than Hitmonlee and it's going to matter against Erika, Koga and Blaine. C-tier looks good for it.

Pinsir is totally fine in C. It has no stabs but it's strong learns Brick Break naturally isn't hard to setup with Bulk Up, has a good movepool with what it needs and Hyper Cutter is amazing. It does well against Erika, silph co rival, Giovanni and Lorelei. Blaine is actually pretty good because you outspeed everything and except or Arcanine which still takes half from Dig, you OHKO the first three mons.

Voltorb is alright in C. It's worse than other electric but between outspeeding everything and Explosion, it has its uses.

Aero and farfetch'd I agree with C, although it's more a matter of philosophy of ranking.

Magmar, Ponyta and Moltres are good enough for D-tier. They come late and sadly matchup aren't good but they are strong and fast to contribute. You can always put a dent against Lorelei, Bruno, Agatha and champion.

Rattatta was alright but it just lacks the bulk and won't be that helpful in mid to late game.

Safari mons are hard to find and at a low but didn't help a lot. Koga wasn't a good matchup as well as Blaine due to double intimidate. They can always put a dent but they won't sweep.

Ninetales was honestly really weak when I used it, for instance missing the OHKO on Koga's Koffing. Fire-type is cool for Erika but except for that it wasn't helpful and Ninetales is just way too frail and weak to be useful.
 

Texas Cloverleaf

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Why don't we adapt the OP list into a running one within the thread here and aim to wrap everything up by page 10? I think between me, Zebes (love all your stuff so far man well done), aegon, and others we have enough manpower and ability to reach quick consensus that we could get the list into a sufficiently completed state to proceed to writeups, if the other names I've mentioned were willing to commit to the effort.
 
Why don't we adapt the OP list into a running one within the thread here and aim to wrap everything up by page 10? I think between me, Zebes (love all your stuff so far man well done), aegon, and others we have enough manpower and ability to reach quick consensus that we could get the list into a sufficiently completed state to proceed to writeups, if the other names I've mentioned were willing to commit to the effort.
Hate to say it, but I don't have FR/LG on me right now lol. I don't think those can be played on a 3DS... :(
 
Great idea Texas, I'll try to put a list. Aegon you can still play them on simulator. In some cases, I'll provide logs.

Alakazam is a solid S-tier, it's so obvious that it won't require any testing
Colteor doubted about Jynx being in S-tier but it's aburdly great and is probably the best mon in game
Mr. Mime is well-settled in S and was tested by both Texas and Kurona


Kadabra is except for Lance, champion and somewhat Sabrina,the same as Alakazam, it just sweeps everything.
Bulbasaur was tested by Texas and it's clearly A-tier and the best starter. S-tier overates it though because it has to rely on unaccurate moves with SleepSeed but it's still really consistent.
Testing Hitmonlee again would help because it felt closer to B-tier than A-tier to me being found late and having its struggle against some gym leaders (Koga, Agatha and Lance most notably) and Primeape was better imo and is currently in B-tier. Colteor seemed a bit unsure about A-tier so another test might help.
Nidoking was tested by Texas who felt it was a competent A-tier
Having more inputs about Snorlax would help but its ability to outstall everything is impressive and except for Bruno and sometimes Giovanni, which shouldn't be a problem anyway you just win all the time.
Squirtle was tested by Texas and is really consistent so A-tier is good
Staryu could see more testings but the fact it just walks over the game after you find it could make it Atier in spite of being found late and being TM hungry
Vaporeon was tested by Colteor and might require more tests but it's a better Blastoise available later with a nice leveling-up movepool


Articuno could see more testing but with great matchup against Sabrina, Giovanni, Agatha and Lance B-tier is good while it can't be A because you only get it in late game and Blaine, Lorelei and even Bruno due to Rock Tomb
Charmander needs more input because it's really borderline A-tier
Clefable was used by Texas and B-tier is fine for it
Doduo could see more testing but I don't see it moving tbh
Electabuzz shouldn't be B-tier. It's only available in late game and even then it hardly loses to Giovanni and isn't even that consistent i good matchup like Lorelei
Exeggcute is fine in B-tier and Texas tested it.
Gengar could see more input but I don't see it moving because it's really good in spite of requiring several tms.
Golem was quite frankly not good but some testing would help.
Arcanine needs more testing
Raichu needs more testing but feels more C-tier
Golduck could see more testing
Lapras needs more testing but honestly B-tier is fine for it
Machamp was recently tested by Korona so it should be fine
Likewise, Gyarados was also tested by Korona and is well-settled in B. Btw Bruno is a free matchup because you can setup Dragon Dance on Rock Tomb from Onix and still outspeed everything.
Magneton could see more testing because I see it in C-tier and Colteor in B-tier. I find quite hard to get Leftovers but with them it would be B-tier without a doubt.
Primeape could see more testing because Texas wasn't sure about A-tier
Nidoqueen was tested by Colteor
Slowbro needs more testing and could potentially be A-tier but it's found late and more input would be cool
Fearow was tested by Colteor and is a solid B-tier
Tentacruel might need more tests but to be fair it's good enough for B-tier
Zapdos could see more test and could potentially be A-tier worthy so more input about it would be nice


Bellsprout and Oddish could see more testing but honestly they are similar to Tangela which is C-rank, with a great Misty and Surge matchup.
I guess Caterpie could be tested more but it's honestly a slighty worse Venomoth found earlier with a better ability
Ground-types (Cubone, Diglett and Sandshrew) need more testing because they are nowhere near as good as other C-tier.
Graveler really has to drop to D-tier and Texas logs clearly show why
Dratini was well-detailed by Colteor and C-tier is absolutely fine
Drowzee is an important mon to test because I felt it wasn't good but more input could help ranking it properly
Flareon could see more testing but it's overall good enough for C-tier
Haunter would be really interesting to test because it's quite tricky to rank. It's far worse than Gengar but still really solid
Goldeen was tested by Texas and C-tier is good enough
Hitmonchan would be great to test
Water-types (Horsea, Krabby, Poliwag) could be tested but shouldn't move in another tier
Machoke needs more testing but will probably drop because it's just bad
Meowth requires more testing but between Pickup (sad that Persian doesn't have it), Pay Day and good speed, C-tier looks fine
Pinsir could see more testing but honestly it will probably not move
Shellder was tested by Colteor and C-tier is fine
Venonat was tested by Texas and it's among the best in C-tier
Voltorb would be nice to test, it's worse than other electric-types but between Explosion and outspeeding everything, C-tier doesn't look out of place


Aerodactyl could see more testing if people feel it's woth C-tier
Ekans was tested and deemed D-tier
Farfetch'd could see more testing because TROP, Trudterra, Rota Mitarai and I felt it could be C-tier whereas Texas found it better ranked in D
Poison-types (Grimer and Koffing) could see more testing but they are most likely staying in D
It would be interesting to test Jigglypuff more because Texas felt it was more E-tier but it's way better than things currently in E (except for Kabutops).
Tauros was tested by Texas and D-tier is fine for it and Kangaskhan is pretty similar to it
Fire-types (Moltres, Magmar and Rapidash) could see more testing but they are helpful enough for D-rank I guess
More input for Omanyte could be nice because it might be D-rank worthy
Paras could have tests but it was horrible and D-rank is fine
Pidgey was tested by Texas and D-rank is fine
Rattata could see more test but D-rank looks good
Rhyhorn wasn't good but I guess it could stay in D, more testing would be great
Scyther would be interesting to test because it's way better than expected and Swords Dance + Agility is amazing
Seel should get tested but there is no doubt it should be C-rank, it's just as good as other water-types tbh and isn't particularly hard to find
Vulpix could see more testing because I had terrible experience with it but I could be wrong
Weedle was tested by Colteor and D-rank is fine for it

Chansey could see more testing but it's probably not required because it's really bad
Ditto is the worst mon so testing it is pointless
Kabuto would be cool to test because as I said before it's potent in late game despite coming at level 5
Lickitung is a worse Wigglytuff which is already barely D-tier
Onix as shown by Colteor is just awful and E-tier is perfect for it
Porygon is incredibly annoying to get and even then despite its movepool its stats are too lackluster to help


Hence I divided in 3 categories things to test :

Important to test :

Kadabra, Hitmonlee, Hitmonchan, Staryu, Charmander, Golem, Magneton, Cubone, Diglett, Sandshrew, Raichu, Drowzee, Machoke, Seel and Kabuto

Somewhat important to test :

Fearow, Zapdos, Articuno, Haunter, Arcanine, Golduck, Lapras, Slowbro, Tentacruel, Bellsprout, Oddish, Haunter, Persian, Voltorb, Aerodactyl, Farfetch'd, Omanyte, Vulpix

Low priority :

Snorlax, Doduo, Gengar, Caterpie, Flareon, Jolteon, Pinsir, Scyther, Kangaskhan, Moltres, Magmar, Rapidash, Paras, Rattata, Rhyhorn, Chansey, Porygon, Ditto


Adding to my previous nominations, testing all these things would mean that the ranking will be ready for writeup.
 
Last edited:

DHR-107

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Why don't we adapt the OP list into a running one within the thread here and aim to wrap everything up by page 10? I think between me, Zebes (love all your stuff so far man well done), aegon, and others we have enough manpower and ability to reach quick consensus that we could get the list into a sufficiently completed state to proceed to writeups, if the other names I've mentioned were willing to commit to the effort.
I understand Kurona hasn't been on for some weeks, but come on dude, let's do this the right way rather than trying a coup on getting the thread done.

I've PM'd Kurona and I'd like to give him a couple of days to respond. After that, you're more than welcome to take over the thread. Keep up the good work guys.
 

Texas Cloverleaf

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Not trying a coup, to be clear. When Kurona comes back the list will be ready with him, in the interim we'll have it organized accordingly, this way it gets updated and people can have a clearer picture of what stands remaining, rather than needing to keep tabs on each new page concurrently.
 
I used some of those Pokemon on a run in LeafGreen two months ago. This post won't be as in-depth as the other posts in recording how the runs went, but I hope it can be useful nonetheless.

My team was Mr Mime, Clefable, Electrode, Marowak, Parasect, and Seaking.

I'm only going to focus on the ones in the above post to not have to type as much. Paras was kind of awful. It absolutely deserves the D-rank it's at now. It's stats are bad, and while the utility is fine (Spore is very cool), I often wishes I was using the Bulbasaur line instead. When it wasn't being used to Spore stuff, it was either killing Water-types (that aren't part Ice) or being used as death fodder. It comes early enough that that is actually a decent amount of usage, but it just doesn't do enough damage to even successfully solo Misty, I found. It's not unusable, but god it sucks.

Voltorb, who also has an awful movepool, isn't that bad. Electric STAB is really good, as is Explosion and it's speed stat. It's kind of bad for a lot of major fights, but any fight where Electric hits super effectively it's actually quite good. Also, BOOM on any hard to beat enemies. Light Screen and Thunder Wave are also great utility. Definitely below Magnemite overall.

Cubone isn't great. Even with Thick Club it's slow, and while STAB Earthquake is great, the rest of its coverage leaves me wanting (I had Rock Slide and normal attack). Great for beating Team Rocket grunts and Koga, and also some Giovanni fights (I got OHKOd by Blaine's faster special attacking Pokemon), but does absolutely abysmally against any non-Agatha Elite 4 member to the point that it joined Parasect as fodder in the endgame. It was significantly easier to get in than Parasect, however, and in my opinion that should keep it from D with all the really bad Pokemon.

Some quick personal thoughts on other Pokemon:
Pidgey feels actually usable, but I haven't used it in ages and that could be nostalgia talking
Kadabra is just as busted as the other Psychic types, having it literally carry a run for me in mid-2020 (including soloing Lance)
Seaking is only usable because Surf is fantastic; personally I hated it
 
Great idea Texas, I'll try to put a list. Aegon you can still play them on simulator. In some cases, I'll provide logs.

Alakazam is a solid S-tier, it's so obvious that it won't require any testing
Colteor doubted about Jynx being in S-tier but it's aburdly great and is probably the best mon in game
Mr. Mime is well-settled in S and was tested by both Texas and Kurona


Kadabra is except for Lance, champion and somewhat Sabrina,the same as Alakazam, it just sweeps everything.
Bulbasaur was tested by Texas and it's clearly A-tier and the best starter. S-tier overates it though because it has to rely on unaccurate moves with SleepSeed but it's still really consistent.
Testing Hitmonlee again would help because it felt closer to B-tier than A-tier to me being found late and having its struggle against some gym leaders (Koga, Agatha and Lance most notably) and Primeape was better imo and is currently in B-tier. Colteor seemed a bit unsure about A-tier so another test might help.
Nidoking was tested by Texas who felt it was a competent A-tier
Having more inputs about Snorlax would help but its ability to outstall everything is impressive and except for Bruno and sometimes Giovanni, which shouldn't be a problem anyway you just win all the time.
Squirtle was tested by Texas and is really consistent so A-tier is good
Staryu could see more testings but the fact it just walks over the game after you find it could make it Atier in spite of being found late and being TM hungry
Vaporeon was tested by Colteor and might require more tests but it's a better Blastoise available later with a nice leveling-up movepool


Articuno could see more testing but with great matchup against Sabrina, Giovanni, Agatha and Lance B-tier is good while it can't be A because you only get it in late game and Blaine, Lorelei and even Bruno due to Rock Tomb
Charmander needs more input because it's really borderline A-tier
Clefable was used by Texas and B-tier is fine for it
Doduo could see more testing but I don't see it moving tbh
Electabuzz shouldn't be B-tier. It's only available in late game and even then it hardly loses to Giovanni and isn't even that consistent i good matchup like Lorelei
Exeggcute is fine in B-tier and Texas tested it.
Gengar could see more input but I don't see it moving because it's really good in spite of requiring several tms.
Golem was quite frankly not good but some testing would help.
Arcanine needs more testing
Raichu needs more testing but feels more C-tier
Golduck could see more testing
Lapras needs more testing but honestly B-tier is fine for it
Machamp was recently tested by Korona so it should be fine
Likewise, Gyarados was also tested by Korona and is well-settled in B. Btw Bruno is a free matchup because you can setup Dragon Dance on Rock Tomb from Onix and still outspeed everything.
Magneton could see more testing because I see it in C-tier and Colteor in B-tier. I find quite hard to get Leftovers but with them it would be B-tier without a doubt.
Primeape could see more testing because Texas wasn't sure about A-tier
Nidoqueen was tested by Colteor
Slowbro needs more testing and could potentially be A-tier but it's found late and more input would be cool
Fearow was tested by Colteor and is a solid B-tier
Tentacruel might need more tests but to be fair it's good enough for B-tier
Zapdos could see more test and could potentially be A-tier worthy so more input about it would be nice


Bellsprout and Oddish could see more testing but honestly they are similar to Tangela which is C-rank, with a great Misty and Surge matchup.
I guess Caterpie could be tested more but it's honestly a slighty worse Venomoth found earlier with a better ability
Ground-types (Cubone, Diglett and Sandshrew) need more testing because they are nowhere near as good as other C-tier.
Graveler really has to drop to D-tier and Texas logs clearly show why
Dratini was well-detailed by Colteor and C-tier is absolutely fine
Drowzee is an important mon to test because I felt it wasn't good but more input could help ranking it properly
Flareon could see more testing but it's overall good enough for C-tier
Haunter would be really interesting to test because it's quite tricky to rank. It's far worse than Gengar but still really solid
Goldeen was tested by Texas and C-tier is good enough
Hitmonchan would be great to test
Water-types (Horsea, Krabby, Poliwag) could be tested but shouldn't move in another tier
Machoke needs more testing but will probably drop because it's just bad
Meowth requires more testing but between Pickup (sad that Persian doesn't have it), Pay Day and good speed, C-tier looks fine
Pinsir could see more testing but honestly it will probably not move
Shellder was tested by Colteor and C-tier is fine
Venonat was tested by Texas and it's among the best in C-tier
Voltorb would be nice to test, it's worse than other electric-types but between Explosion and outspeeding everything, C-tier doesn't look out of place


Aerodactyl could see more testing if people feel it's woth C-tier
Ekans was tested and deemed D-tier
Farfetch'd could see more testing because TROP, Trudterra, Rota Mitarai and I felt it could be C-tier whereas Texas found it better ranked in D
Poison-types (Grimer and Koffing) could see more testing but they are most likely staying in D
It would be interesting to test Jigglypuff more because Texas felt it was more E-tier but it's way better than things currently in E (except for Kabutops).
Tauros was tested by Texas and D-tier is fine for it and Kangaskhan is pretty similar to it
Fire-types (Moltres, Magmar and Rapidash) could see more testing but they are helpful enough for D-rank I guess
More input for Omanyte could be nice because it might be D-rank worthy
Paras could have tests but it was horrible and D-rank is fine
Pidgey was tested by Texas and D-rank is fine
Rattata could see more test but D-rank looks good
Rhyhorn wasn't good but I guess it could stay in D, more testing would be great
Scyther would be interesting to test because it's way better than expected and Swords Dance + Agility is amazing
Seel should get tested but there is no doubt it should be C-rank, it's just as good as other water-types tbh and isn't particularly hard to find
Vulpix could see more testing because I had terrible experience with it but I could be wrong
Weedle was tested by Colteor and D-rank is fine for it

Chansey could see more testing but it's probably not required because it's really bad
Ditto is the worst mon so testing it is pointless
Kabuto would be cool to test because as I said before it's potent in late game despite coming at level 5
Lickitung is a worse Wigglytuff which is already barely D-tier
Onix as shown by Colteor is just awful and E-tier is perfect for it
Porygon is incredibly annoying to get and even then despite its movepool its stats are too lackluster to help


Hence I divided in 3 categories things to test :

Important to test :

Kadabra, Hitmonlee, Hitmonchan, Staryu, Charmander, Golem, Magneton, Cubone, Diglett, Sandshrew, Raichu, Drowzee, Machoke, Seel and Kabuto

Somewhat important to test :

Zapdos, Articuno, Haunter, Arcanine, Golduck, Lapras, Slowbro, Tentacruel, Bellsprout, Oddish, Haunter, Persian, Voltorb, Aerodactyl, Farfetch'd, Omanyte, Vulpix

Low priority :

Snorlax, Doduo, Gengar, Caterpie, Flareon, Jolteon, Pinsir, Scyther, Kangaskhan, Moltres, Magmar, Rapidash, Paras, Rattata, Rhyhorn, Chansey, Porygon, Ditto


Adding to my previous nominations, testing all these things would mean that the ranking will be ready for writeup.
I can dig up some logs I have done in the past for Kang and Sandshrew I did a run with them last year. I likely can replay LG and do Staryu, Charizard, Magneton, Hitmonlee, and Aero I guess.

Going by memory ( I’m on mobile rn), Kang for D seems about right. It is very strong, but I found for it to do it’s best it’s very TM hungry. It wants Return as reliable STAB and Shadow Ball for coverage. In terms of hitting things hard it does quite good, but it can be very one note if it isn’t fed hard to obtain or single use TMs. Mega Punch and Strength can do ok, but you want Return. It’s a strong normal, but with how many other good normals there are and how awful it is to get, D sounds right.

Sandshrew tbh I almost wanted to say D, but C makes way more sense. It flat out blows until it gets Dig, does ok when it has it, and it just doesn’t do enough. It’s not terrible, but honestly you could do so much better than it in terms of grounds. Honestly I would rather just use a Dugtrio since you don’t have the miserable pre dig levels and it feels more useful since it isn’t slow as heck.

For testing Aero, what would you say is the ideal time to get it?
 

Texas Cloverleaf

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For testing Aero, what would you say is the ideal time to get it?
As soon as you get Surf you can take a trip down to Cinnabar via Pallet without encountering any trainers (if needed), then you can pick up Rock Slide in time for Silph Co. where Aero can handle its own from roughly its later teens.
 
I probably should get back to helping with this huh...
for testing Aero, what would you say is the ideal time to get it?
What I did for Omastar (and I think what Texas did for Aero) was after Koga but before Silph Co or Sabrina, so as early as possible in the 'normal' route. I wouldn't skip Erika or anything since it's faster to just give Aero the Silph experience than it is to try and fight Koga underleveled.


Fearow was tested by Colteor and is a solid B-tier
I did reconsider my ranking in a later post, I could see either way but I'd say A tier currently. Could probably be low priority to test.

Also I'll finish my run and post logs of Kadabra/Vaporeon/Haunter/Primeape sometime tonight, I think I'm at Lance so it shouldn't take too long.
 
Gryoine : Echoing your sentiment about Paras, it was really that bad. Training it was horrible due to howw common Zubat was and outsped it. Except for Cut (and Dig) and winning against Misty and Surge, it was among the worst things in the game and fairly close to E-rank.

Voltorb was definitely the worst Electric-types but as you said it's a great typing and between speed, Explosion, Light Screen and Thunder Wave, it has its utilities so C-rank seems good.

I didn't have Thick Club on my Cubone but still except for Rocket Grunts and Giovanni, it wasn't good. Koga wasn't cnsistent due to Smokescreen and Agtha was really painfull with DoubleTeam and confusion. It was better than Paras for sure but tbh several things in D-tier like Rattata, Farfetch'd or Pidgey are usable.

Speaking of which, Pidgey was sadly not that good. Unlike Spearown it doesn't win against Misty or Surge. Erika and Sabrina are good mathchup. Brock and Blaine are too much for it. Giovanni is hard and you can only beat one Nido and Dugtrio. It's potent against Lorelei as you 2HKO Dewgong, beat Cloyster and OHKO Jynx. Pidgeotto only wins against Hitmonlee from Bruno. Agatha is too hard due to relying on Fly. Against Lance you can only take down a Dragonair and only Venusaur against Champion. All in all Pidgey is usable and will fae well against Erika and Sabrina but except for that, aside from koing 1 or 2 mons in major battles it wn't do much.

Same sentiment for Seaking (and some other water-types like Seadra) but Surf is amazing for Blaine and Giovanni and it has Ice Beam for Lance.

MX42 : Same sentiment for Kanga so won't add more and for Sandshrew. It wasn't fun to train without Dig (especially using Scratch on the nidos and getting poisonned) and even then Dig was only helpful for Surge. Dugtrio was way better because it has a better stab and thanks to its speed can destroy Sabrina and ko rivl Alakazam.

Colteor : I'll add Fearow in somewhat important to test. A-tier looks plausible for it (and I had this feeling when using Dodrio). I felt from my testing that it was more B-tier worth than A-tier due to the Brock, Koga, Blaine and Champion matchup but A-tier looks possible for it.
 
I’m gonna probs test Pikachu instead of Magneton. I don’t want to over level Zard too much and since without that the earliest mon I would get would probably be Hitmonlee. Seeing as Raichu is also in need of a test I think that works out better.


EDIT: Posting my logs as of Brock

Rival 22: Charmander was level 8 at the time. Pidgey is a 2hko with Ember, although my Charmander is Rash so I am gonna say it is probably a 3hko. Squirtle is a Scratch fest. Not terrible, but boring and optional.

Brock: Charmander was level 14 when I did this. I did four attempts at this. And I won each of them. For some god forsaken reason, Brock in his soup brain mind did not think that Rock Tomb was a good idea. Metal Claw without an attack raise was a 3hko on Geodude and a 4hko on Onix. After *4 attempts* without a single Rock Tomb, which almost certainly would be a 2hko, I decided to say **** it and just keep going. It appears Brock more or less attacks randomly for me, so you have a 1/4 chance to get hit by Rock Tomb. If he does not use it, good MU surprisingly.

My first two encounters were Pikachu in Viridian Forest. One was Adamant one was Jolly. Needless to say, I wanted to get one with a better nature just to be sure. It took me, and I am not kidding, one whole hour to find another one. My luck was granted rewarded to me on Brock, but still. Pikachu had a Mild nature when I found one.

Rival 22: Thundershock 2hko Pidgey and 3hko Squirtle, although I got a crit on Squirtle. You don't take enough damage from Pidgey or Squirtle to do badly, good MU if you choose Charmander.

Brock: I did not test this, because it seemed pointless. You do not get Quick Attack until Level 11, and you will not be able to beat Geodude before it kills you. Bad MU. I guess theoretically if you leveled all the way to Level 16 to get Double Team it would be feasible, but that is so not optimal it hurts.

Current thoughts:

Brock was much less of a roadblock for Charmander than I expected him to be. Misty though is going to be a headache and a half though for both from my past experiences. I am gonna expect for Charmander having to resort to Smokescreen strats and Pikachu needing to use Double Team strats. Honestly imo Misty is the hardest fight in this game but that's just me.

Charmander getting through Brock somewhat reliably honestly makes the dream of A Tier seem more likely for me. Misty still seems to be a bad MU, and I am not completely confident in Surge being an easy fight either, but if the early game outside of Misty stays managable I think it has a strong case for A Tier.
 
Last edited:
Double posting my logs for the first half of the game.
Charmeleon (Lvl 20): Mega Kick 2hkos Squirtle and Pidgeotto. You sweep everything else. So long as Mega Kick is kind to you and Pidgeotto does not spam Sand Attack, good MU.

Pikachu (Lvl 18): Thunder Shock 2hkos everything. Ironically the biggest hurdle was Ratatta. Quick Attack can be scary due to Guts and Static. That being said, good mu.
Charmeleon (Lvl 21): Mega Kick cleanly 2HKOs Staryu. Starmie is too fast for evasion strats to work on it without insane luck. You live a water pulse, but Mega Kick only does around half and it outspeeds you. Bad MU.

Pikachu (Lvl 18): Double Team Twice on Staryu for insurance as you prepare to Thundershock it to death twice. Staryu for some reason in all my attempts does not like to Water Pulse, it only did once. Starmie is a 3hko, but Water Pulse cleanly 2hkos you, so you need to disrupt it with Double Team and Thunder Wave. Not as great of a matchup as I would have hoped, but still a pretty good mu. Misty can be a real roadblock, and Pikachu does handle her with a little luck..

Use dig. I am not kidding. I did two runs of this place. Charmeloen at 30, Pikachu at 28. Dig OHKOs everything for Pikachu save Raichu, who could in theory hax you with Double team but it did not happen for me. Charmeleon brute forces easy. Dig go burr.
Hitmonlee (serious nature) (Lvl 32-33): For context, I did the fighting dojo asap as soon as I got access to it. I already had Charizard. I let Hitmonlee solo the Rockets and go to Giovanni. HIK swept him. Amazing MU, but Giovanni is a joke.

Raichu (Lvl 34-35): I was slightly worried about this MU, but with Brick Break Raichu can do pretty well. You 2hko the grounds and T Bolt 2hkos Kangaskhan. The issue is what the Grounds do. You should barely live Fake Out + Mega Punch if the Grounds cooperate and dont chip you too much. Decent MU.

Charizard (Lvl 38): Brick Break go burr. Rock throw from Onix is a little scary since you dont OHKO it, but if it doesnt do that the fight is free. Even with it, Kangaskhan dies to flamethrower twice. Solid MU.

Charizard (38): level curve without skipping trainers bad. Click flamethrower and ohko everything but Wartortle.

Raichu (34-35): Thunderbolt 2hkos Exegg, sweeps. Great MU but this fight is a joke.

Hitmonlee (32-33): HJK 2hkos Egg, Wartortle, and Growlithe after intimidate. Everything else dies. Great MU.

This fight is so easy why did they make him so weak.

Charizard (38): hahahahahahahaha the level curve in this game is stupid if you don't skip trainers. Flametrower three times and take badge from plant lady

Raichu (36-37): I thought this MU would be terrible...but it really isn't. T Bolt 2hkos Victreebel even with Giga Drain and OHKOS Tangela. Vileplume is tanky enough that it is a 3hko not factoring in Giga Drain. So not a great MU, but for a resist being able to brute force 2/3 of the team its not as bad as it could be.

Hitmonlee (34-35): I did a detour to Silph, only fought one trainer with Starmie while I was there to get Bulk Up. After 3 Bulk Ups, you sweep. You need 3 to OHKO the poisons. Equip a pecha berry and Victreebel is set up fodder. Great MU.

Starmie (28-29): I caught this thing (neutral nature, Natural Cure) as soon as I could after Pokemon Tower. Trained it on the route trainers I skipped heading to Celadon, the trainers in Pokemon Tower I skipped, and the gym trainers. Psychic OHKOs Victreebel, Ice Beam OHKOs Tangela. Vileplume is a 2hko but you outspeed and it wont OHKO with Giga Drain outside of a crit, great MU.


Current Thoughts

:Charizard: Well, I am very strongly leaning A if things keep going this way. Granted, I am overleveled. But I am just not skipping Trainers. I have since Viridian Forest fought maybe 3 wild pokemon for EXP by accident. And outside of Misty, Zard is doing amazingly. Now, I do want to see if this holds up for Silph Rival and onwards. The Elite 4 also look mixed. If it keeps up its solid record, I will strongly support it being A.

:Raichu: Raichu is weird. Like really weird. On one hand, Misty is not a particularly easy fight. On the other hand, it has overpreformed its bad matchups like Giovanni and Erika. Granted, it is a bit overleveled, but even still. I think there are a few factors really helping Pikachu out. Electrics are just good in FRLG, T Bolt at 26 is insane, it comes super early, and its TM Movepool gives it decent coverage. Dig and Brick Break for the early game at least have been solid. Now, is it going to hold up as time goes on? I cant say for sure. But so far, I do lean A, although not nearly as much as I do Zard.

:Hitmonlee: Hitmonlee comes out of the gate swinging if you get it ASAP. Its a little frail at first, but once it gets going its insane. HJK is super strong and it can brute force its way though a lot of mons. Bulk Up already turned what I thought would be a bad MU into a good one. Its still a little early, but I can say so far I think the argument for A seems to be legit. I also would love to see logs that maximize the amount of time you have Bulk Up for on Primeape. It is slightly bulkier on the Physical side, and slightly faster at the cost of not as good STAB and worse special bulk. If Hitmonlee could be A, I think Mankey could have a strong case too.

:Starmie: Honestly, this is too soon to tell, but sweeping Erika at 28 should be a sign that Starmie is strong. There are a few things that in theory could stop it from being S rank though. First is it is TM hungry. I needed Ice Beam and Psychic to sweep Erika. While most of the really good Psychics learn Psychic by level up, Jynx for instance does not. Ice Beam also is pricey, although I find myself swimming in money in these games anyway. It could be that tiny factor that just stops it from being S tier. But so far, its good. Like, real good.

Current game plan is to take Cycling Road to level up Starmie, and level up the rest over Silence Bridge. Beat Koga, sail to Cinnibar to get Aero. Should get the rest of this log in relatively soon.


Charizard
Ability: Blaze
Level: 38
Rash Nature
- Flamethrower
- Mega Kick
- Wing Attack
- Brick Break

Raichu
Ability: Static
Level: 36
Mild Nature
- Thunderbolt
- Thunder Wave
- Brick Break
- Dig

Starmie
Ability: Natural Cure
Level: 29
Bashful Nature
- Water Pulse
- Ice Beam
- Recover
- Psychic

Hitmonlee
Ability: Limber
Level: 34
- Bulk Up
- High Jump Kick
- Return
- Rock Tomb
 
I have about the same experience (except I didn't use Starmie for Erika). Charmander does better than expected in bad matchup (like Brock and Misty and is pretty strong afterwards). By the way, from what I've read Brock attacks according to HP left, potentially explaining why it didn't go for Rock Tomb. Pikachu isn't that good for Misty but somehow potent in bad matchup.

I had less level but Erika was a bit less good with Hitmonlee and Raichu. Starmie is really that good although as you said requiring several tms and being found in mid-game makes me feel A-rank is better for it.

Anyway, it will be interesting to see your feelings on Zard, Raichu and Hitmonlee going on.

I'm going to comment briefly mons from the list.

Hitmonlee, Charizard, Pikachu, Staryu and Aerodactyl are tested by MX42 who details very well the role of each mon. I feel Hitmonlee is more of a B-tier due to being available in mid-game, struggling a bit against Koga and somewhat Blaine, Agatha and champion. Charizard I'm unsure and MX42'sthoughts will help a lot. Pikachu I'm a bit unsure but it loses to Brock, Misty, Erika isn't that good, Giovanni is a hard lose and other matchup except for Lorelei are kinda average so C-tier feels adequate for it. Starmie should be fine in A-tier because it just walks over the game but comes at a low level (without boosted exp unlike Jynx) in mid game and requires several tms. MX42 is going to help a lot with these mons. Aerodactyl is among the best mon and it's more of a matter of tiering philosophy to rank it.

Colteor will enlighten about Kadabra but from my experience it's just like Alakazam, sweeping through Erika, Koga, Blaine and Giovanni. Sabrina was a bit worse due to not having Calm Mind but regarding the IA, the win is highly possible. Lorelei was pretty much similar (even though it was a range on Slowbro at +6) and Bruno too. Gengar 2 can outspeed but otherwise Agatha is just as good. Lance is significantly worse because it's harder to outstall Gyarados' Hyper Beam and Aerodactyl outspeeds, still it can put work. Champion is a bit less good because Extreme Speed from Arcanine does more.

Hitmonchan was like Hitmonlee except it had worse Erika, Koga, Blaine and Giovanni was less good, just like Champion.

Golem quite frankly is nowhere near as good as B-tier like Gengar or Exeggutor. It loses badly to Misty, Erika and Lorelei. Koga was unreliable due to Rollout accuracy and Smokescreen. Blaine isn't even good due to double Intimidate and not being able to take repeated Fire Blast.

Colteor tested Magneton but the fact that it comes late, loses to Blaine, Giovanni and Bruno easily and isn't reliable enough in supposed good matchup like Lorelei and Agatha makes me think that C-tier is better for it. Lorelei and Agatha aren't 100% win without Leftovers and that sucks for a late-game encounter. Beating Lance's Gyarados and Aerodactyl is nice but Dragonite is going to overwhelm and Dragonair are hard to get past. It's alright for champion, beating 3 mons. It also needs a few TMs.

I already mentionned ground-types enough but they are quite frankly bad.

Drowzee, I might be wrong but it wasn't that good for a Psychic. Drowzee is frail and weak. Hypno is pretty good but lacks the power. For instance, even at +6, it couldn't OHKO Lapras or Dewgong from Lorelei and unlike Kadabra/Alakazam it doesn't have Recover so it wasn't even a win. It still was obviously strong for Erika and Koga but unlike other Psychic-types, it didn't have all that muc winning matchup. Drowzee is too weak for Surge and getting past Raichu is tricky. You can potentially beat Sabrina but it requires lots of time. Rival is pretty good most of the time so that's cool. Giovanni was a mostly free matchup. Even Bruno wasn't that good because it's too weak to OHKO Fight-types and if Onix uses Rock Tomb and it takes repeated hits it's a lose. Against Agatha, it can hope to take down 2 or 3 mons. Lance is incredibly tricky and except for Dragonair, it's not goinf far. It's pretty similar to other Psyhic-types in the sense that it has a good offensive typing and Calm Mind but it's much less reliable and its pre-evo is just plain bad.

Machoke was terrible. It's weaker than Machamp and way less bulky. Machamp had the advantage of barely winning important games like against Erika but that's not working for Machoke. Erika is a lose, Koga is a lose, Blaine is a lose and it can only hope to take down Rhyhorns and Dugtrio against Giovanni. You can set up on Cloyster if Slowbro is ko'ed against Lorelei and koing Dewgong before but it's not consistent nor reliable seeing as how Jynx can put you to sleep. Bruno is unlike its evolution far from guaranteed as it doesn't have the bulk to take too much hits. Agatha is really bad. Against Lance, it can only ko a Dragonair and just the Rhydon against Champion. Really Machoke was that bad and there as very fe reasons to use it unlike its evo.

Seel was just like Seaking. You find it in mid to late game at a decent level and it wrecks Blaine (thanks to Thick Fat) and Giovanni. Lorelei and Bruno are obviously bad. You can hope to take down Gengar 1 and Golbat against Agatha. It's a bit better than other water-types in C against Lance thanks to its Ice typing. It outspeeds and 2HKO Dragonairs from Lance. You can also 2HKO Dragonite while taking a hit so it's taken down 1v1. It's pretty solid for Champion as it OHKOes Rhydon, 2HKO Pidgey, can take down Arcanine at full health and outspeed and 2HKO Venusaur. Pretty cool mon that deserves C-tier.

Kabuto was something else really interesting that deserves D-tier, just like Omanyte. It easily defeats Blaine and Giovanni is free by setting up on Dugtrio and using Rain Dance+Surf that koes everything. Against Lorelei it 2HKOes Dewgong, Lapras and Cloyster and OHKO Jynx so that's pretty good even though it can be hard between Hail, Protect and only 2HKOing, still that's pretty solid. You can only OHKO Onixes against Bruno. Against Agatha Rock Slide 2HKOes Gengar and Golbat and OHKO Haunter. It's pretty hard for the Agatha lottery but it does something. Against Lance you can either beat Aero or Gyara. Champion is alright as it takes down Pidgey, Rhydon and potentially Arcanine if healthy enough.

Fearow is extremly good but I feel it's better placed in B-tier rather than A-tier, even though I wouldn't mind it going up. It's really strong in early to mid-game but less good afterwards. Blaine is a bit annoying due to Intimidate, Lorelei isn't that good, Lance is bad and champion isn't that good, not to mention that Brock is bad.

Zapdos was really good and the best mon currently in B imo. It has a strong performance against Blaine. Giovanni isn't too bad outside of Rhyhorns as you easily beat Nidos and Dugtrio. Lorelei is obviously good. Bruno is great outside of Onixes. Agatha is good because Zapdos is bulky and strong. Lance is great because it defeats Gyarados and Aerodactyl and can paralyse something. Champion is quite good. All i all Zapdos is incredible consistent and might be worth A-tier even though between coming late, hard to catch and not having automatic win, B-tier feels better for it.

Articuno is pretty good too, sweeping with ease Giovanni and having a really strong Lance fight. Agatha is pretty good. Lorelei and Blaine are impossible to get through and Bruno is annoying due to Rock Tomb. Champion outside of Arcanine is solid. B-tier seems good for it.

Haunter is pretty weird because it was really good but still less than Gengar. It might be B-tier worth but not sure because it requires several tms, comes late and has a few bad matchup like Blaine. Gengar is better in the sense that it outspeeds and OHKOes Alakazam with Shadow Punch and the power makes the difference for Lorelei and Lance's Gyarados (that was a range for Haunter iirc). More testing would help.

Arcanine was pretty nice, even though it ned to have Flamethrower from Game Corner. Arcanine has great stats and Intimidate is always great. Erika is an easy win, Koga is a nice matchup, Blaine is quite good thanks to Dig and it's potent against Bruno thanks to Intimidate. Agatha is an alright matchup thanks to its bulk. Lance and champion are kinda hard tho. It will require more testing but B-tier seems good because it's solid and can always put work.

Golduck seems fine in B. It has a really strong performance, taking down Koga, Blaine and Giovanni with ease while having a solid Sabrina fight. Against the elite 4, Agatha is pretty free after 3 Calm Mind and Lance is good with healing. Champion can get beaten at +4 with a Full Restore. Texas nominated for A-rank and I totally get why but between coming late, at a rather low level and losing to Lorelei and Bruno without doing much, I think A-tier would be better.

Likewise, Slowbro was really good. It was like a slow Starmie in the sense it just runs through the game, sweeping with ease every gym leader or elite 4 with support. I still think B-tier is better because it's found late, is hard to train and requires healing in some cases. It may need a Full Restore for Lorelei between Hail, Yawn and attacks. Bruno is free withtout a crit and no mon from Agatha can take a Psychic. Lance requires a Potion as Slowbro can't take too many hits. Champion is sweepable but will probably require a Full Restore because it can't afford taking too many hits. Slowbro is one of the best mon but sadly to me its late availability and requiring sometimes a Potion make it B-tier.

Lapras is another really solid Water-type. It just wins easily against Blaine and Giovanni. Sabrina isn't too hard (unlike water-types in C) due to its bulk. While it has to avoid Lorelei and Bruno, Agatha is pretty solid thanks to hitting rather hard and taking hits well and Lance is really great. Champion is also great as long as you avoid taking a SolarBeam from Venusaur. What separates it from Water-types in C is a good matchup against Sabrina and a better performance against Lance and rival.

Tentacruel is even better than Lapras. It has the same good matchup as Lapras (even Sabrina isn't hard because it outspeeds Alakazam and has impressive special bulk, taking less damages than Kingler for instance). While the Poison-type isnt a problem for Sabrina, it actually helps for Bruno (Clear Body is pretty clutch to avoid Rock Tomb speed drop) and it can take down the 2 Onixes and 1 to 2 Hitmon. Lance is also pretty good thanks to its special bulk and speed and beating Dragonite and Dragonair is possible. Champion is alright as it takes down Rhydon and one of Pidgeot/Arcanine or Venusaur.

Bellsprout and Oddish are quite similar in the fact that they are really situationnal mon. They are either incredibly good (Misty, Surge, Lorelei, Bruno) or just bad (Blaine, Agatha or Lance). C feels appropriate because they are good about half the time and kinda hard to train (especially Oddish).

Persian is pretty bad but Pickup from Meowth is amazing and Pay Day is a nice move if you're using something like Nidoking or Starmie that requires several tms. It's fairly weak but it can still take out 2 mons from Erika, is potent with Dig against Surge, outright wins against Sabrina and puts work against Blaine and Giovanni. While not reliable, Screech+attack always help and thanks to its Speed and Shadow Ball, Agatha is a good matchup. I feel that due to Pickup, Pay Day, (possibly Cut user), winning matchup against Sabrina and ability to do something with Screech + Attack, C-tier is fine.

Voltorb is possibly the worst Electric-type. Still, electric is a good typing and it really outspeeds everything. Explosion is also great and taking out something like a Grass-type from Erika or a Dragonair from Lance is pretty good. Rival matches are pretty good outside of the grass-type (that still can get explode on). It can somewhat put work against Sabrina, outspeeding everything, even though Calm Mind makes thing hard, hitting relatively hard with Thunderbolt or exploding. Against Blaine, it can take down 3 mons thanks to Explosion. It's pretty good against Lorelei, 2HKOing water-types (except Cloyster which is OHKOed) and explose on Jynx. It can always kill a Hitmon against Bruno. Agatha is pretty good as it outspeeds and 2HKO everything except for Arbok and Gengar 2. Against Lance, it can take down Gyarados, Aerodactyl and explose. Champion is alright and between koing Pidgey and Gyarados and explosing it does something. It's obviously not good but between good matchup against Lorelei and Agatha and being always helpful thanks to speed and explosion, C-tier looks good for it.

Texas already talked a lot about Aerodactyl so not going to be long but it's really solid. Blaine and Giovanni (outside Rhyhorn) are easy wins and the Elite 4 is fantastic. Training it isn't hard in Silph Co because once it gets to level 15-20, it can ko things by itself. I guess it's more a matter of philosophy but C-tier would look good for it, seeing its performance.

Farfetch'd I feel was more C-rank worthy. It's a nice HM Slave that happens to learn Swords Dance. I deleted Cut before learning Agility and it was great. It can potentially win vs Surge according to what it does and it sweeps Erika and Koga. Rival was also pretty good thanks to Swords Dance. Afterwards, it was harder, only taking down Blaine's 2 worst mon. Giovanni was alright as it can take down non-Rhyhorn mons. Lorelei was pretty bad(I should have tried Double Dancing on Cloyster). Agility and Swords Dance + Aerial Ace is a win against Agatha. Champion wasn't good but at least it won against Venusaur. Farfetch'd wasn't good but between its role of HM Slave and winning against Erika, Koga, potentially Surge and Agatha as well as having boosted exp, I think it deserves C-rank.

Omanyte was tested recently and it solidly wins against Blaine and Giovanni ad is solid against Agatha, Lance and champion (taking down 3/4 mons is amazing). I think D-tier is better than C-tier because unlike Aerodactyl it has some bad matchup (it only kills the useless Cloyster and Jynx against Lorelei and Bruno is extremly bad).

I had bad experiences with Vulpix. You need to catch it at a low level because otherwise it won't have Ember, learning Flamethrower early was dope tho. Erika is alright even though Vulpix is weak af. it doesn't win vs Koga, taking down only at most 3 mons. Sabrina is really luck reliant as usual. Blaine and Giovanni are hard loses. It can only hope to ko Cloyster and Jynx against Lorelei. It somewhat puts work vs Bruno thanks to WIll-o-Wisp but still that's not much. Agatha is alright but Ninetales doesn't hit hard and the Agatha lottery is going to be annoying. It's useless against Lance outside of bruning something. Against Champion, it can kill the grass-type or Pidgey. Really Ninetales was bad, especially compared to Arcanine, that is way better against Blaine and Koga and at least does something against Giovanni. D-tier feels alright for it.

Snorlax was really good. It comes in mid-game but just wins every battle except for Bruno. Its ability to outstall and win with RestStalk against nearly everything else is impressive. It just needs Shadow Ball for Agatha. Only Champion is a bit tricky because Rhydon does a lot with Earthquake but otuside of that, Snorlax just slowly beats everything. A-tier ssems fine for it.

Dodrio looks fine in B. It's a better Fearow found a bit later. It has roughly the same matchup and is in the same rank due to coming later.

Gengar is really good despite requiring several tms. It had perfect matchup against Erika, Koga, Sabrina, killed the 2 baby mons against Blaine and had a clean sweep against Giovanni. Against lorelei it beats everything but Jynx. Bruno was solid as except for Hitmonchan (hat otuspeeds after a Rok Tomb), it could defeat everything. Agatha is good except for Arbok (due to Intimidate preventing the OHKO on Gengar 2). Lance wasn't that good, despite OHKOing Gyarados and killing Aerodactyl as it doesn't do enough to Dragonair and Dragonite. Champion is great because it 2HKOes Pidgeot, 2HKO Rhydon (while still outspeeding after Rock Tomb), OHKOing Gyarados and beating Venusaur. Overall, Gengar was extremly strong but between requiring several tms (Psyhic is highly required and it ned both Thunderbolt and Giga Drain), coming in mid-game and average performance against Blaine and Lance, B-tier is better for it.

Caterpie was surprisingly good. It could defeat Geodude from Brock. I guess if it was of a higher level, Sleep Powder could have made it better for Onix. Coumpound Eyes is an amazing ability and I had the feeling Sleep Powder barely missed. It couldn't do anything to Misty but Surge was alright with Sleep. Erika was a free matchup thanks to Psychic. Sabrina was good with Aerial Ace. Blaine couldn't get beaten outide of the 2 baby mons but Giovanni was particularly good. Lorelei was alright between Sleep and Giga Drain (it took down Dewgong and Cloyster). Bruno was amazing thanks to sleep and the right moves. Agatha was the lottery but Coumpound Eyes help in that regard. Lance was impossible to get through and it could hope to take down Alakazam, the Grass type and Rhydon against Champion. Overall, Caterpie fits well in C-tier, it had its struggling like Brock, Misty, Blaine and Lance and required several tms but was pretty good outside of that.

Flareon is quite good. It wins against Erika and Sabrina and is strong against Koga. The Elite 4 is alright as it can take down a Hitmon and does particularly well against Agatha. Champion is also pretty good as it can defeat Pidgey, the Grass-type and Alakazam. C-tier is totally fine for it.

Jolteon is just a regular fast Electric. It needs the Thunderbolt TM and is fast and just spams Thunderbolt it's really nothing special and C-tier wit other Electric-types is perfect for it.

Pinsir was actually good. It koed 2 mons against Erika, sweep Rival with Bulk Up, sweep Sabrina and wins against Giovanni. Blaine was surprisingly good thanks to Hypper Cutter and it took down 3 mons wile doing half to Arcanine with Dig lol. Lorelei was good as it could set up 2 Swords Dance, ko Dewgong, then set up a last Swords Dance and ko everything until Jynx comes and ko with Ice Punch. It can hope to take down Onix and Hitmonchan (or Lee) but then Machamp koes it. Lance isn't good but it can still beat Gyarados. Champion wasn't particularly good but at least it could take down Pidgeot or something else other than Fire-type or Rhydon. It's a quite situationnal mon that isn't easy to get but still it did some work and C-tier is fine for it.

Scyther was actually quite good too. Getting one is annoying but despite its barren movepool it does something. It can defeat Erika with Aerial Ace, Koga thanks to Swords Dance and wins against Sabrina with ease. Blaine wasn't that bad considering it could take down the 2 baby mons and put Rapidash to red. Against Giovanni, it can set up on Dugtrio to +6 and sweep wih Aerial Ace+ Steel Wing. It's quite good against Lorelei because it can win buy setting up on Cloyster and then OHKOing everything except for Slowbro (that uses Amnesia) and Lapras that can't OHKO it. It can only defear Hitmonlee against Bruno. Thanks to Agility + Swords Dance + Aerial Ace, Agatha is a free win. It cna et past Dragonair against Lance. Except for somewhat Exeggutor it can't really setup against champion. Scyther is rather strange because it sometimes needs to setup after the first mon but is still pretty consistent, winning against Erika, Koga, Sabrina and Agatha and setting up on the second mon against Giovanni and Lorelei and it would fit C-rank perfectly despite being hard to get. Another test woud be great.

Kangaskhan is a safari mon that is hard to get and requires several tms. Even then, it's not even good. Koga is hard due to Smokescreen and Muk using Acid Armor or Minimize as well as the bulky Weezing. Sabrina is a great match but then that's about it. It always contributes to the match but doesn't outright win and most of the time you'e better off using somethin available earlier. It's just like Tauros and Texas' posts about it describe it really well too.

Moltres, Magmar and Rapidash are good in D-rank. Moltres is better due to better stats and better performance against Giovanni and Agatha. Still, despite coming late, they can help. Against Lorelei, they can at least defeat Cloyster, Jynx and possibly Lapras if using Sunny Day. Rapidash can use a SunBeam set so that's alright. Against Bruno, you can just beat Hitmonlee. Agatha is pretty nice because you can take down up to 4 mons as they get 2HKOed by Flamethrower. Lance is impossible. Against champion, you can still hope to defeat Pidgey, possibly Alakazam and the grass-type. Obviously, these 3 mons are far from good, still they at least do something against the elite 4, especially Agatha and they fit more in D-tier.

Paras was really terrible, horrible to train with its speed and all the poison-type. Still, it can defeat Misty and Surge, has Spore and it learns Cut s that's at least something.

Rattata is fine in D I think. Unless it has a hgih level, Brock is a lose. Misty is just too hard to get past. It wins against Surge and Sabrina but that's it. Erika is hard due to paralysis, Koga has too many bulky mons, Blaine is impossible with Intimidate and Ratticate can only take down 2 mons against Giovanni (Dugtrio + a Nido). The Elite 4 outside of Agatha is terrible as it struggles to do something against Lorelei, Bruno and Lance is way too much. Its speed an dlearning Shadow Ball is cool for Agatha but even then it only beats Gengar, Haunter and Golbat if lucky enough. Champion is just way too much for Ratticate. Ratticate was fairly decent, having decent power but as just too frail and had so many losing matchup to justify a raise.

Rhyhorn was extremly bad. It was incredibly hard to train and evolves at a high level. Rhydon was alright but won't hae much uses. Still I don't think it deserves E-tier because at least Rhydon is strong against Agatha, can beat Lance's Aerodactyl and can do something against the champion (taking down Pidgey, opposing Rhydon, the fire type etc.)

Chansey was actually not as bad as I thought. It was able to toxic stall and win against Lorelei. Still it was obviously bad and between being extremly hard to get and no use outside of that, E-rank is perfect for it.

Porygon is probably the best E-tier (outside of Kabuto which needs to move ASAP). It has a great movepool and SHarpen + Agility + Recover is good. Despite this, it's just too hard to justify because it's hard to get and it barely wins any important match.

Ditto was the worst mon and there is really no reason to use it. E-tier is perfect for it.
 
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