Pokemon Black & White, aka Gen 5. Coming to Japan in Fall 2010.

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The thing is, if Stealth Rocks was put at a set amount, then there would be no difference with it from Spikes other than the fact that it hits airborne pokemon and doesn't stack. I guess that's better than Yanmega and crew getting half their health taken down on the switch in, though.

Of course there would be a difference. You can lay multiple Spikes.

Or for an even more snide answer;

SO WHAT?

Lots of different moves and abilities have almost the exact same function.

EDIT: Hell, even moves like Seismic Toss and Dragon Rage can't be supereffective.
 
If you would have been paying attention then you'd have seen that I already addressed the difference. Just because there's a lot of other moves that have similar uses, doesn't mean that we can just throw that excuse willy-nilly. If that was the case, there'd be almost no diversity in pokemon other than typing and stats.

On a more realistic note, Stealth Rock probably isn't going to change, so we might as well not wine about it anyways. The best way to problems like these is to simply work around them, like the majority of people have been doing already.
 
If you would have been paying attention then you'd have seen that I already addressed the difference. Just because there's a lot of other moves that have similar uses, doesn't mean that we can just throw that excuse willy-nilly. If that was the case, there'd be almost no diversity in pokemon other than typing and stats.

One stacks, one hits airborne opponents and levitaters. You already spelled out the obvious difference between Stealth Rock and Spikes. Maybe you should be paying more attention to your own words.

There's nothing willy nilly about balancing Stealth Rock. It's unbalanced and inconsistent with other sources of indirect damage and fixed damage.
 
I think a simple solution to SR being completely over-centralising is first to nerf it, as other have said, to a max of 25% damage, and then bring in SR variants of other types, like Ice, Fire, etc. However, you should only be able to set up one "Stealth" entry hazard, so no SR+Stealth Ice to rape Mence and Nite.

Because the thing about SR is, rock isn't a particularly common attacking type. Under usual circumstances, having a 4x rock weakness might be a bit of a downside, but my no means a massive liability. But with SR, this changes. However, with multiple SRs of different types, there wouldn't be as much centralisation around one specific "Stealth" entry hazard, with most teams instead choosing the one that aids their team the most, allowing the awesome Yanmega to see some more use, and Charizard to get out of NU, and all the other 'mon that've been nerfed by SR get another chance to shine.
 
I think a simple solution to SR being completely over-centralising is first to nerf it, as other have said, to a max of 25% damage, and then bring in SR variants of other types, like Ice, Fire, etc. However, you should only be able to set up one "Stealth" entry hazard, so no SR+Stealth Ice to rape Mence and Nite.

Because the thing about SR is, rock isn't a particularly common attacking type. Under usual circumstances, having a 4x rock weakness might be a bit of a downside, but my no means a massive liability. But with SR, this changes. However, with multiple SRs of different types, there wouldn't be as much centralisation around one specific "Stealth" entry hazard, with most teams instead choosing the one that aids their team the most, allowing the awesome Yanmega to see some more use, and Charizard to get out of NU, and all the other 'mon that've been nerfed by SR get another chance to shine.

SR is the only thing that keeps mence in check, without it it would be insanely uber. gamefreak were im sure well aware of the implications and in fact made it to be this way for this reason
 
SR is the only thing that keeps mence in check, without it it would be insanely uber. gamefreak were im sure well aware of the implications and in fact made it to be this way for this reason

Bullshit, they didn't invent SR to counter one Pokémon at the cost of completely ruining a bunch of others. I'd love to have Salamence in ubers if it meant I got to use Charizard again without forming a whole team around it just so I can switch it in.

Also I was thinking today about how Synchronize needs to start passing on Sleep, Confusion and Frozen statuses. My Umbreon is completely crippled by anything that outspeeds it (everything, I'm using Curse so I can't even Taunt), puts it to sleep and then sets up on it. I never got why those other statuses weren't passed on.
 
Stealth Rock existed well before Salamence got Outrage, which is a lot of the reason people talk about it maybe going ubers anyway, isn't it?
 
i'd like to restate my opinion about Stealth Rock found in this post:
http://www.smogon.com/forums/showpost.php?p=2449329&postcount=492

basically it endorses Stealth Hazards of any type BUT with any or all of the following nerfs:
  • they deal % damage of remaining HP (like how super fang works)
  • they only last for 5 switches (not turns)
  • and of course, only one king of stealth hazard can exist on one side of the field at any given time

the last two nerfs can be applied to Stealth Rock..
 
SR is the only thing that keeps mence in check, without it it would be insanely uber. gamefreak were im sure well aware of the implications and in fact made it to be this way for this reason

Did you even read my post? Why use SR when you could use Stealth Ice and nerf all the dragons (bar Kingdra)? Because let's face it, if you have a Salamence weakness, you probably have a bit of a Flygon weakness too.
I didn't mention anything about getting rid of stealth rock. In fact, nothing I suggested would have any effect on Salamence at all, so I don't understand your point.
 
Bullshit, they didn't invent SR to counter one Pokémon at the cost of completely ruining a bunch of others. I'd love to have Salamence in ubers if it meant I got to use Charizard again without forming a whole team around it just so I can switch it in.

You really have to be careful with Charizard anyway, he's not something you can just slap on your team and call it a day in the first place.

Personally, I'd prefer to see how Yanmega, Ninjask, and Moltres benifit from it. Those three are the only three that I think could make OU consistantly (2 of them were OU for a while, and Moltres is pretty powerful) that are nerfed 50% by the rocks.
 
SR is the only thing that keeps mence in check, without it it would be insanely uber. gamefreak were im sure well aware of the implications and in fact made it to be this way for this reason

. . . And then they made Garchomp (and the 4x resistant Lucario). Righhttt . . . somehow that's not so convincing.
 
I reckon SR should do 12.5% to most pokemon and ex axtra 12.5% to the flyers and levitators who avoid spikes.
Stealth Rock should deal 12.5% as the maximum. 6.25 as the average, 3 against NVE and not hurt 4x resists. As it is now, the attack completely controls this game. When one attack controls an entire game, you know something's wrong. Hell, there are several Pokemon like Aerodactyl who are top tier JUST because they can use that attack. Stealth Rock needs to be severely nerfed if the state of the game is going to be fixed.
 
This. Seriously, Gamefreak gives every Dragon one of the most broken moves in the game and you guys want to make it unresisted? Dragons have plenty of ways to take out Steels (basically all of them get Earthquake and Fire Blast) and once they're out of the way, it's easy enough to sweep.

Here are my thoughts on ways to nerf currently broken things.

Dragons:
-Make better Ice types, prefferably ones with decently powerful Ice Shards and no weakness to SR.
-A Dragon Volt Absorb. A pure Dragon with this ability would be a great counter to Dragons and it would make a nice counter for things like Infernape as well, provided it can take a +2 HP Ice. Making it so it doesn't have Outrage or Dragon Dance would keep it from just being another sweeper.

Steels:
-Another Pokemon with Magnet Pull, preferably one that doesn't have a 4x Ground weaknes or a weakness to Fighting. Magnezone is pretty good, but Probopass completely sucks.

Stealth Rock:
-Rock Volt Absorb. It works just like Volt/Water Absorb but for Rock attacks. It would also absorb SR upon switching in and heal it 25%. This would be better than more Rapid Spinners, IMO, because it actually discourages the use of SR, as it would give this Pokemon free recovery.

You know, Rock Body or something like that would be really cool for absorbing Stealth Rocks. In fact, it's a shame Regirock already has Clear Body, because using rocks to repair itself is sort of its thing.

One good way to balance out stealth rocks would be to have an entry hazard absorbing ability, you know? If you had a few good Pokémon what got it, shit, give it to Probopass and Donphan, the gods know Sturdy's not doing anything for them, then you could switch something in without:

1) having to have a dedicated Rapid Spinner on your team
2) not having to have Rapid Spin at all. How nice would that be?
 
You know, Rock Body or something like that would be really cool for absorbing Stealth Rocks. In fact, it's a shame Regirock already has Clear Body, because using rocks to repair itself is sort of its thing.

One good way to balance out stealth rocks would be to have an entry hazard absorbing ability, you know? If you had a few good Pokémon what got it, shit, give it to Probopass and Donphan, the gods know Sturdy's not doing anything for them, then you could switch something in without:

1) having to have a dedicated Rapid Spinner on your team
2) not having to have Rapid Spin at all. How nice would that be?
that would basically ruin stall or any other team that relies on entry hazards, SR is useful, leads kill each other to use it etc. but it is just a move, it can´t win the game for you so yeah.... it oculd use nerfing but i don´t think people should whine about it
 
The thing is, if Stealth Rocks was put at a set amount, then there would be no difference with it from Spikes other than the fact that it hits airborne pokemon and doesn't stack.

Yes, but being able to hit flyers and levitators is a huge advantage. That's like saying Flare Blitz is similar to Wood Hammer, and the only difference between the two is their type. It's true, but you're trivializing an important factor that could potentially make or break a game.

@vonFiedler: I think you should avoid calling Stealth Rock an "inconsistency". If GameFreak never experimented with new ideas, Pokemon would be a lot less interesting. Stealth Rock is a failed idea and needs to be changed, but it's not like the game designers haven't faced a situation like this before. Remember RBY, when the critical hit ratio was based on speed? :pirate:

I also saw one post claiming that Aerodactyl is only OU because he's so good at getting down Stealth Rock. Have some faith, dude! Aero was OU in third gen without Stealth Rock. Hell, he was even BL in second gen, when he didn't have Taunt and his move pool was crap. Even if Stealth Rock does get nerfed, he'll still be a decent Pokemon.

Edit: Actually, never mind that last thing about Aero. Cyrus wasn't saying he was OU because of SR, only that he was "top tier"...which I have to admit is probably true.
 
Stealth Rock could have been a lot fairer if it were more exclusive... a lot more exclusive.

But yes, making is neutral is the best idea, and no, it won't be like spikes, and no, Gamefreak isn't definitely not gonna do it. They do realize when their stuff is broken, so it would not surprise me at all if they address this one way or another.
 
that would basically ruin stall or any other team that relies on entry hazards, SR is useful, leads kill each other to use it etc. but it is just a move, it can´t win the game for you so yeah.... it oculd use nerfing but i don´t think people should whine about it

Stall survived in Gen3 despite Spikes being all there was.

Stall THRIVED in Gen2 despite the reasons directly above.

Your point is moot.
 
I also saw one post claiming that Aerodactyl is only OU because he's so good at getting down Stealth Rock. Have some faith, dude! Aero was OU in third gen without Stealth Rock. Hell, he was even BL in second gen, when he didn't have Taunt and his move pool was crap. Even if Stealth Rock does get nerfed, he'll still be a decent Pokemon.

Edit: Actually, never mind that last thing about Aero. Cyrus wasn't saying he was OU because of SR, only that he was "top tier"...which I have to admit is probably true.
Aerodactyl would not be OU in Gen 4 if it didn't have Stealth Rock and Taunt. This is further supported by the fact that it became OU once the metagame stabilized after Platinum's release, and the game became more stall-oriented and leads became designed to lay down Stealth Rocks as consistently as possible. Now we see Azelfs and Swamperts instead of Weaviles and Bronzongs.

Stall survived in Gen3 despite Spikes being all there was.

Stall THRIVED in Gen2 despite the reasons directly above.

Your point is moot.
Stall thrived in those generations because wall breakers didn't quite exist in GSC and in both generations, SkarmBliss was near invincible because of the physical/special split, which called for a sharp increase in the amount of mixed sweepers being used, which lowered the overall offensive power of the game. I didn't play in RSE, but that much is obvious.

It's true that Stealth Rocks is good for keeping flying threats in check, but it's not worth it when the move is wrecking the game in their place.
 
Stall survived in Gen3 despite Spikes being all there was.

Stall THRIVED in Gen2 despite the reasons directly above.

Your point is moot.
lol yeah when i posted i saw that i didn´t expliain that, the reason stall kicked butt in GSC is a combination of things, basically the ability to max out everything causing everything to be more bulky, combined with the fact that there were less attacking moves and items (no choice items no ev´s no iv´s no overpowered moves for every pokemon plus the fact that with a team of six you could effectively counter the entire metagame, not sure if it is exaggeration since i wasn´t around, this is stuff i read about) in RSE still stall could counter a lot of stuff effectively, at least more than now, only choice band was a choice item, there was less priority and rotom wasn´t aorund spin blocking shit so you had to pick either dusclops or sableye (lol) and they don´t even compare. right now we have a stable metagame, you can play bulky offense heavy offense hyper offense, stall or basically anything you can think of and still kick ass at it, stall excells at ladder becouse you never know what you will find ergo it is better to counter more stuff than have more raw power on your pokes but still, blissey isn´t what it used to be, choice scarfs and specs are now on pokes + trick, priority is running all over the place and rotom is there to spinblock crap but there is a lot of shit that stall cant cope with anymore, stall can only counter threats up to a point now and still pokemon like mixmence and some other stuff ca kill a vital team member of yours if you don´t "guess" its set before you see the DM or DD. Stealth Rocks keeps threats at check while providing your team with a reliable source of damage that always hits opposing pokemon no matter if they are fliers or levitators and only needs one turn of setup, i am not against nerfing it, i just say it helps stall live, not to mention it helps a lot of offensive pokemon net vital OHKOS and 2HKOS.
 
With SR, I see 3 safe, favorable outcomes:
1. Nothing changes. When there is controversy, this is the safest option. People might be disappointed, but no one's going to cry, "You ruined everything!"
2. SR damage caps at 25%. SR is basically just as powerful in OU while letting doubly weak Pokemon be more playable.
3. You can get two layers of SR: one layer does 1/2 damage it currently does and two layers does its current damage. This is basically a compromise between those who want SR nerfed beyond oblivion and those who think SR contributed favorably to the game (although I think even those people agree that it's overcentralizing).
 
I think it would be kind of cool to see more stealths, and only be able to have one up at a time, since that would have a lot of strategy depending on the sweeper. For example, lets say you use ddmence and ddtar. Do you go with stealth feathers to hurt fighters that switch into t-tar? Stealth fire for steels, especielly scizor? Or mayby stealth ice, to stop scarfflygon from revenge killing all the time after you set up?
 
Sure.

My team is Lucario weak, Stealth-fire checks him pretty well.
My other team has this huge problem taking on Machamp, Stealth feathers knocks his bulk down.

THe issue is there is only one so the mons that get screwed by it are useless. Nerf max damage to 25% and add 4or 5 other non-stackable spikes(not Ice though) We're good to go.
 
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