The Mind Electric
Calming if you look at it right.
I was adding on to your point, or at least I was trying to.
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Pokemon Brilliant Diamond and Shining Pearl - Release 19th Nov 2021
- Thread starter DHR-107
- Start date
You know, funnily enough, this is the first generation since the original Gen 4 games since we had Base Versions, then a third version, and finally a remake, with of course the expansion pass replacing the third version.
I was wondering this myself, though I definitely don't want to get my hopes up, y'know? I could see them ditching it, and I've made my peace with that.
My mistake then. Sorry about that.
Makes you wonder... what are the odds of an expansion pass for this game?
I'm still really curious about what they're going to do with where the Pal Park was located. It's not like it can function as it used to, Home already handles past games' transfers and you can't just slap a Safari Zone there. The Great Marsh already exists.
Honestly, they could slap anything they wanted there, though I don't really expect the Frontier to be relocated. If it's in the game, it gotta be in the Battle Zone.
Could it be that we're getting an entirely new feature?
This is actually the second generation we've had that particular structure in that order, the first one being 4 itself (DP->Platinum->HGSS, and in Gen 8 we have SwSh->IoA+CT->BDSP), so Gen 8 effectively parallels Gen 4 in that sense.
Gen 3 actually did Base Versions, then a remake next, then the third version last. Gen 6 almost did this, with XY then ORAS following soon after, and it was seeming that Z would've come last but that never happened.
It's a tendency for generations with a remake in them to try to parallel the original generation said remake originated from, with Gen 8's release structure following Gen 4's. The other notable parallel between Gen 8 and Gen 4 was the creation and implementation of Steel Beam in Gen 8 being parallel to Gen 4's Draco Meteor: both having polls in CoroCoro prior to the release of SwSh and DP respectively, about "the Strongest Steel-type move" and "the Strongest Dragon-type move", and winning their Japanese names via fan poll. Their Japanese names are both puns, with Steel Beam's Tettei Kousen being "Do-or-Die" but also incorporating "Steel" (Kotetsu) and "Beam" (Kousen) into the name, while Draco Meteor's is literally Meteor Shower, but sounds like "Ryuseigun", with "Ryu" also being "Dragon". And in-game both moves are tutor-exclusive moves that every single Steel-type and Dragon-type respectively being capable of learning them, both being super powerful attacks with 5 PP and a major drawback.
There's also a parallel with the version mascots of the main paired games sharing typings: this was already the case with Gen 4 and Gen 2, with Dialga and Palkia sharing a Dragon-type, while Ho-Oh and Lugia share a Flying-type. Gen 8 follows this, with Zacian and Zamazenta sharing a Steel-type. All three of Gens 2, 4, and 8 introduced new evolutions to older Pokemon as well, the former two even brought in pre-evolutions that were baby Pokemon.
It's like how Gen 3 and Gen 6 already had a number of parallels with their main mascot trio being red, blue, and green and all three having different typings, while the blue and red legendaries represent opposing forces, and the green one the "mediator" who neutralizes the other two and is also the guardian of their respective region. The other notable parallel I saw was the fact that both the Hoenn and Kalos games had the player character you didn't choose serve as your rival throughout the game, just like how Brendan/May was one of your rivals in RSE, Calem/Serena was one of your rivals in XY.
Maybe I'm looking a little too much into it (my neurodivergent brain is a sucker for catching patterns like this), but it's a noticeable trend. If there was anything hinting towards the Sinnoh remakes happening this gen, aside from the notable exclusion of several Gen 4 Pokemon from Gen 8, it was this tendency and the parallels that these generations tend to invoke to the original generation the remakes are based on.
"Using smartphones and other devices they can access a great number of games, so the time they dedicate to a single game is less than in the past."
^Masuda on lack of battle frontier in ORAS. A lack of postgame facilities might just be some weird design philosophy by the same company that brought you the removal of player choice in an always on EXP share and whatever the gen 8 battle tower was.
The Mind Electric
Calming if you look at it right.
Oh, Masuda. If only you knew about the people trying to break Jumpman16's Platinum Battle Tower record a decade later.
The basic rental teams and the idea of a defeat not making you lose your increasing amount of rewards was a good thing in the Sword and Shield Battle Tower... but the rest of the structure should have remained as-is. As in, keep the streak system for bragging rights, but don't drop me back to 1 or 5 BP after a single defeat.
(And also, the increasing rewards should not have such a low cap)
(And also, the increasing rewards should not have such a low cap)
I'm sure he (& others at gamefreak) are aware (hell I think I saw him retweet someone's super high record in one of the gen 4 facilities within the past month) but they're almost certainly in the extreme minority.
The Mind Electric
Calming if you look at it right.
This is why I've been defending the Frontier as the main piece in a DLC expansion for a while now.
It makes perfect sense to do so. It has a steep cost in terms of effort to be implemented, historically has only been in 3rd games as a big selling point, and those have been replaced by DLC now, is highly replayable and worthy content and it does shut down this whole argument about "vocal minority" despite the fact that there literally is no data on the subject.
Put a price tag on it and let's see how many people put their money where their mouth is.
I feel like plenty of ppl are going to buy Pokemon DLC™ whether or not they're "vocal minority" dedicated to the the frontier. Like, I've heard people getting SWSH for $60 and then not playing it much, so surely for the smaller DLC price people will be willing even if they're not part of this dedicated group.
Also, for many people, how likely they are to get any BDSP DLC (frontier or not) depends on how much they like the regular base game, which is another wrench in using DLC sales to gauge the fanbase on that specific DLC content.
For questions of "do enough people want the Frontier", remember that GF cares less about the absolute number that prioritize the Frontier. They care more about how many people will change from not buying content to buying content, so if you love the Frontier but will buy all Pokemon content regardless of whether it's there, GF is gauging you less.
I feel like the Gen 3-8 sales record tells us that a substantial postgame does not turn enough people from "no" to "yes" to merit its effort from a pure business perspective.
Sure wasn't too hard to find
The Mind Electric
Calming if you look at it right.
Yung Dramps
awesome gaming
Ok so I've seen this talking point used a couple of times now so I kinda just want to address it now
Whenever someone like me says "calm down Porygon-Z is in the trailer they're gonna use the Platinum dex" you'll get people going "Well it was available postgame in the Trophy Garden in DP so that doesn't mean anything, it could still be DP dex"
Listen, I understand that there is still a ton of lingering apprehension and cynicism in the hardcore fanbase about BDSP both due to SWSH's perceived mediocrity and the fear partially spurred by ORAS that many of the Platinum additions won't make the cut. With that said, come the fuck on. Why in God's name would ILCA pull such a bait and switch in place of just, y'know, actually including the Platinum dex and the evos it put into the main game unless they're trying to be weasels? Outside of some of the ORAS megas and Hoopa portal legends I cannot think of an instance where the very early marketing for a game showed off explicitly postgame-only Pokemon in such an intentionally or unintentionally misleading way. Besides, you can pull that rationalization for many of the omitted cross-gen evos from DP: If they had shown Rhyperior instead you'd have a bunch of people going "Well akshually Rhyhorn/Rhydon were at Stark Mountain so it could still be DP dex".
Now, I don't got the best track record with bets as you can see by my profile picture so I wouldn't do so here. But lemme put it this way: Ever since June 2019 I've seen myself as a level-headed voice in this very turbulent community who doesn't resort to hyperbole nor call any new game or hand behind them shit on sight over stupid bullcrap. But if it turned out by some unholy act of Satan that BDSP really are using the DP dex and the Porygon-Z thing really was false advertising, I'll jump right on the hatetrain with absolutely 0 reservations. I'll lambast Masuda as an incompetent hack, I'll immediately write off the game as a total ripoff with not even a smidgen of value or reason to play it compared to Platinum marketed partially by deception, deliberate or not. I massively doubt that nightmare scenario will happen but I also didn't think we'd even get DP remakes let alone the crazy shakeup Legends is so who the hell knows.
Whenever someone like me says "calm down Porygon-Z is in the trailer they're gonna use the Platinum dex" you'll get people going "Well it was available postgame in the Trophy Garden in DP so that doesn't mean anything, it could still be DP dex"
Listen, I understand that there is still a ton of lingering apprehension and cynicism in the hardcore fanbase about BDSP both due to SWSH's perceived mediocrity and the fear partially spurred by ORAS that many of the Platinum additions won't make the cut. With that said, come the fuck on. Why in God's name would ILCA pull such a bait and switch in place of just, y'know, actually including the Platinum dex and the evos it put into the main game unless they're trying to be weasels? Outside of some of the ORAS megas and Hoopa portal legends I cannot think of an instance where the very early marketing for a game showed off explicitly postgame-only Pokemon in such an intentionally or unintentionally misleading way. Besides, you can pull that rationalization for many of the omitted cross-gen evos from DP: If they had shown Rhyperior instead you'd have a bunch of people going "Well akshually Rhyhorn/Rhydon were at Stark Mountain so it could still be DP dex".
Now, I don't got the best track record with bets as you can see by my profile picture so I wouldn't do so here. But lemme put it this way: Ever since June 2019 I've seen myself as a level-headed voice in this very turbulent community who doesn't resort to hyperbole nor call any new game or hand behind them shit on sight over stupid bullcrap. But if it turned out by some unholy act of Satan that BDSP really are using the DP dex and the Porygon-Z thing really was false advertising, I'll jump right on the hatetrain with absolutely 0 reservations. I'll lambast Masuda as an incompetent hack, I'll immediately write off the game as a total ripoff with not even a smidgen of value or reason to play it compared to Platinum marketed partially by deception, deliberate or not. I massively doubt that nightmare scenario will happen but I also didn't think we'd even get DP remakes let alone the crazy shakeup Legends is so who the hell knows.
The Mind Electric
Calming if you look at it right.
I am completely convinced that they'll use Platinum Dex at this point because if they didn't that would mean giving Flint his meme team, plus a bunch of other wonky shit that they wouldn't be caught dead doing in modern games.
I have to agree for many reasons. One major one is fan service. Why would they do Diamond or Pearl dex when they know it would disappoint/ anger thousands of people? It would make no sense to do those versions of the dex.
When it comes to GameFreaks, "they know" is often a term to not throw around lightly.
They lied about removing over half of the pokedex despite knowing it'd have angered the shit out of the fanbase, and stuck to it to the very end for the sake of their theory that they want to "surprise" people with unexpected scenarios.
They may very well not know or not care that "not using Platinum dex" would upset people.
Remember that their idea of "fanservice" is "let's throw Kanto pokemon and Charizard expecially everywhere, and while at it, let's make a couple sexually attractive charachters so we can also grab the degenerates for ourselves"
But think about all of the backlash that they received from that, and they obviously don't want to make the same mistake, so I do believe that they will do Platinum dex to calm those who want natdex, because a LOT of Sinnoh pokemon aren't existent in SWSH, so they could satisfy them with that.
Yung Dramps
awesome gaming
Despite both involving Pokemon selection, Dexit and the DP dex are largely two separate issues. In the end despite that whole shitstorm SWSH was able to accomplish the basic task of having a well-made regional dex open to player experimentation while showing off most of its new mons and having just about all of them available for use. In short, Dexit had almost no impact on the millions of casual players who buy the newest Pokemon game, play until the League and stop there.
The reason DP's dex is so infamous is because it failed to do the bog-standard task every game before or since managed of adequately showcasing EVERY brand new Pokemon, with the game design suffering for it. Even in GSC, for as shit as its Pokemon availability was for players, at the very least they allowed bosses to use the new Pokemon. It was sporadic (MORTYYYY) and still lame for players, but DP couldn't even clear THAT low bar.
We may never know the true reason why the DP dex was in the atrocious, game-wrecking state it was in, and frankly the reason does not matter. Whatever reasons existed for it to be excused back in 2006/2007 no longer exist in 2021, and even for the most casual buyers I'm not sure how they would feel about going from a game with an effectively 600+ Pokemon regional dex if you count DLCs to one where they can't even catch all of the Pokemon that debuted in the region the game is set in. I'm not saying the game will bomb without the DP dex, but it absolutely wouldn't be a good look, especially if that Porygon-Z teaser really does turn out to be misleading.
The reason DP's dex is so infamous is because it failed to do the bog-standard task every game before or since managed of adequately showcasing EVERY brand new Pokemon, with the game design suffering for it. Even in GSC, for as shit as its Pokemon availability was for players, at the very least they allowed bosses to use the new Pokemon. It was sporadic (MORTYYYY) and still lame for players, but DP couldn't even clear THAT low bar.
We may never know the true reason why the DP dex was in the atrocious, game-wrecking state it was in, and frankly the reason does not matter. Whatever reasons existed for it to be excused back in 2006/2007 no longer exist in 2021, and even for the most casual buyers I'm not sure how they would feel about going from a game with an effectively 600+ Pokemon regional dex if you count DLCs to one where they can't even catch all of the Pokemon that debuted in the region the game is set in. I'm not saying the game will bomb without the DP dex, but it absolutely wouldn't be a good look, especially if that Porygon-Z teaser really does turn out to be misleading.
I honestly believe that DP's dex was as bad as it was specifically because they wanted people to use Pal Park to connect their Gen 3 games using the DS's double-slot (one for the DS game, the other for GBA), to transfer their Pokemon to DP and specifically make people rely on the GBA games to fill the Pokedex. It was a very bad way to do it, but I think that DP's lack of dex diversity is specifically tied to them wanting to attach DP to the Gen 3 games and encourage interactivity between DP and RSE/FRLG. Especially after reading an interview about how Masuda said he was planning on DP being the Gen 4 games all the way since 2002, and how he had already planned the games to be RS->FRLG->DP and to have people transfer from RS and FRLG to Diamond and Pearl, that is the only explanation I can come up with and I am convinced that it was an ill thought out way of encouraging people to use DP's Gen 3->Gen 4 transfer system and dongle method.
Of course, that line of reasoning is no longer valid with Gen 8, so it would be incredibly moronic to use DP's original dex when there is no longer a Pal Park or a dual-connectivity where you can connect BDSP with another game in the same console at the same time, and the landscape of Pokemon Transfer has changed drastically since the original DP days.
Of course, that line of reasoning is no longer valid with Gen 8, so it would be incredibly moronic to use DP's original dex when there is no longer a Pal Park or a dual-connectivity where you can connect BDSP with another game in the same console at the same time, and the landscape of Pokemon Transfer has changed drastically since the original DP days.
You say that like literally 99% of media franchises don’t also do this.
I really doubt the DP dex was 150 purely to push Pal Park.
Pal Park was post game only and by post game you actually have a load of Pokemon to catch. You can get something like 390 pokemon without transfer or dongle.
After thinking for a few days, I'm still a little surprised about the scope of these remakes. Remakes pretty much always make sense from a business / development premise, you can spend less time on design or development because there's something to work off of (For a recent example, Let's Go P/E apparently reused a lot of the dialogue straight from FireRed/LeafGreen). I was thinking before the Presents "yeah, a Sinnoh remake makes sense, why not." However, I'm amazed at how they're going about remaking D/P.
I was not expecting this at all though, making a more one-to-one remake of the DS games, style and all. My first reaction was "?? lmao the DS is back baby." It came out of left field, a pokemon remake (or remaster) that did not change the visual style at all. Personally, I've always seen the Sinnoh games and games after those as being less viable games to remake, the main gameplay benefit that Gens 1-3 were missing were the physical/special split and the Fairy typing. However, the physical / special split stands out to me as the biggest gameplay change, so I felt like a Sinnoh remake would have little to improve upon gameplay wise. I figured that they would update the graphics to be in line with Sw/Sh and go from there. Needless to say, I was thoroughly shocked (not in a bad way) that the overworld looked like it did on the DS
To be honest, I like the feel of the overworld, It takes the DS's style and brings it (in my opinion) nicely to a HD console. The visual issues that Ironmage and Codraroll discussed earlier with respect to the models stand out to me, but I think the tilt-shift shown in the linked video indicates that they are aware that the models don't always work from an overhead perspective.
(~0:55-0:57 if the link does not automatically jump there)
The battles look rough though, Sirya hit the comparisons I had on the head earlier, the Switch has good looking games that have been developed for the console, with far more going on than pokemon does, so why does the static pokemon battle look so rough.
With all of that said, I still think these will be fine releases, I may be disappointed with some visuals, but Pokemon is consistent in terms of gameplay (and I like the gameplay) so I'll probably pick up the game at some point. I'll mention this more when I place some thoughts on Pokemon Legends: Arceus in the other thread, but I really got the feeling seeing both announcements that at some point Game Freak split the Sinnoh development into two games, one a safer remake and another more experimental release. BDSP feels designed not to rock the boat too much in any aspect
. I find it extremely funny how safe it looks (I had to double check that they did not copy the overworld models from the DS games), but i find it to be nice in a way, BDSP feels more like a remaster than a remake. This is the first time that a remade pokemon game is not taking the visual style of the generation it was developed alongside, and I wonder how it will turn out. I remember being disappointed with ORAS's artstyle, I feel like the overworld there lost a lot of style and compared to the vibrant Hoenn that the GBA games had. The BDSP trailer and the overworld it showed look like it is polishing up on the style of the Sinnoh region, improving what the DS games built. I still want to see more of the games overworld to come to a solid conclusion, but I think BDSP has a solid direction in terms of the overworld and capturing Sinnoh's visual style.
I was not expecting this at all though, making a more one-to-one remake of the DS games, style and all. My first reaction was "?? lmao the DS is back baby." It came out of left field, a pokemon remake (or remaster) that did not change the visual style at all. Personally, I've always seen the Sinnoh games and games after those as being less viable games to remake, the main gameplay benefit that Gens 1-3 were missing were the physical/special split and the Fairy typing. However, the physical / special split stands out to me as the biggest gameplay change, so I felt like a Sinnoh remake would have little to improve upon gameplay wise. I figured that they would update the graphics to be in line with Sw/Sh and go from there. Needless to say, I was thoroughly shocked (not in a bad way) that the overworld looked like it did on the DS
To be honest, I like the feel of the overworld, It takes the DS's style and brings it (in my opinion) nicely to a HD console. The visual issues that Ironmage and Codraroll discussed earlier with respect to the models stand out to me, but I think the tilt-shift shown in the linked video indicates that they are aware that the models don't always work from an overhead perspective.
The battles look rough though, Sirya hit the comparisons I had on the head earlier, the Switch has good looking games that have been developed for the console, with far more going on than pokemon does, so why does the static pokemon battle look so rough.
There's like three to four 3D models standing in a static field in an average battle, there should be some room to make the background look good (or at least better than this). I'd like to see these games to flesh out an interesting or dynamic battle scene, so while there may still be three to four models standing in a static field, the background can have some actual visual style or flair. The overworld works well as a stylized version and I think it compares favorably to Link's Awakening, (although BDSP could use some more polish), but the battles are showing us the detailed version of what's happening on the ground, and it looks boring and uninspired. I'd say they should have given the background something more than generic 3d space or polish the generic 3d space to a shine.
With all of that said, I still think these will be fine releases, I may be disappointed with some visuals, but Pokemon is consistent in terms of gameplay (and I like the gameplay) so I'll probably pick up the game at some point. I'll mention this more when I place some thoughts on Pokemon Legends: Arceus in the other thread, but I really got the feeling seeing both announcements that at some point Game Freak split the Sinnoh development into two games, one a safer remake and another more experimental release. BDSP feels designed not to rock the boat too much in any aspect
. I find it extremely funny how safe it looks (I had to double check that they did not copy the overworld models from the DS games), but i find it to be nice in a way, BDSP feels more like a remaster than a remake. This is the first time that a remade pokemon game is not taking the visual style of the generation it was developed alongside, and I wonder how it will turn out. I remember being disappointed with ORAS's artstyle, I feel like the overworld there lost a lot of style and compared to the vibrant Hoenn that the GBA games had. The BDSP trailer and the overworld it showed look like it is polishing up on the style of the Sinnoh region, improving what the DS games built. I still want to see more of the games overworld to come to a solid conclusion, but I think BDSP has a solid direction in terms of the overworld and capturing Sinnoh's visual style.