Pokemon Brilliant Diamond and Shining Pearl - Release 19th Nov 2021

I think the map difference is because Diamond and Pearl sold far more than Platinum, so people would recognize how Sinnoh looked in the original two games more. People would probably question why the map looks different than they remember if they only played DP. The snowier aesthetic and other map changes would seem out of place since it is not how the game actually looked. For BDSP, people would probably notice something is off if they are calling it a remake of one set of game, but have the region otherwise look like a different game.

Its kinda how Kanto in Gen 2 looks a little off when compared how Kanto in Red and Blue looks, because they did not use Kanto from Red and Blue! They used Kanto from Red and Green instead, with the tilesets being changes slightly for Red and Blue, so to people who only have seen Red and Blue, Kanto in Gen 2 looks different than the Kanto you have always seen. Is it a big deal, no, but it took me over a decade to realize why i always thought Gen 2 Kanto looked off.

BDSP is in a weird situation if they were to take Platinum's map instead, because there are enough visual differences between the two making it more obvious that there is something different going on.
I get your point but sales and familiarity don't always equate to a better game. The original pair will obviously sell more and thereby foster more familiarity within most older players. But an objective analysis would arrive at the conclusion that Platinum is just a superior game to DP in every significant way, map included. Platinum has a far richer and more exotic landscape compared to DP. I find it hard to believe people would be turned off by Platinum's map just because they are more familiar with DP's more simplistic one.

And the Gen 2 argument doesn't hold too much water only because Gen 2's Kanto isn't exactly a strong selling point. It's infamously barren. GF would've probably been better served to use the RB Kanto instead of RG if they were willing to invest the development resources.

I genuinely think most people who didn't know about the Platinum changes would just chock it up to visually updating the game alongside everything else.
Assuing they even remembered "hmmmst wait the DP hearthome was a lighter shade, what on earth is going on here, hope someone got fired for that blunder" - like 10 people probably

Likely it's just a similar reason to ORAS: they for whatever reason what to triple underline bold THESE ARE SPECIFICALLY REMAKES OF THESE, NOT THAT, ergo they take everything from the original pair and almost nothing from the enhanced version, even though they'd be perfectly fine grabbing a few things without incident.
Almost like they're trying to gaslight us into believing the third versions never existed. It's a bit bizarre actually. It doesn't make much logical sense to not use the objectively superior third versions as the template for remakes and add bits and pieces from the pair versions as needed. Seems they're doing the opposite for whatever reason.
 
The reason of not using the third version as a base is pretty simple to me: the original pair already has all the relevant version differences.

HGSS didn't have this problem because the only relevant differences between Gold and Silver were Pokémon distribution, so they could just pick Crystal for the Suicune subplot, but Ruby and Sapphire, and to a lesser extent Diamond and Pearl have version differences in the plot (although in DP it's basically just the legendary and whether they keep parroting about space or time).

It's less work for them.
 

Yung Dramps

awesome gaming
The reason of not using the third version as a base is pretty simple to me: the original pair already has all the relevant version differences.

HGSS didn't have this problem because the only relevant differences between Gold and Silver were Pokémon distribution, so they could just pick Crystal for the Suicune subplot, but Ruby and Sapphire, and to a lesser extent Diamond and Pearl have version differences in the plot (although in DP it's basically just the legendary and whether they keep parroting about space or time).

It's less work for them.
I mean to be fair this isn't really relevant to map design and such. If they wanted to I don't see why they couldn't rip the Platinum maps and then just go "alrighty Dialga/Palkia climax here"
 
I mean to be fair this isn't really relevant to map design and such. If they wanted to I don't see why they couldn't rip the Platinum maps and then just go "alrighty Dialga/Palkia climax here"
Which is why I said "add bits and pieces from the pair versions as needed". The climax seems to me to be the only necessary change.
 
Why people are hating the chibi style?
I think it's cute. It's a game for 12 yo children... We can't expect Infernape to start bleeding if attacked.
 
Why people are hating the chibi style?
I think it's cute. It's a game for 12 yo children... We can't expect Infernape to start bleeding if attacked.
I think that having an issue with the chibi style does not mean people want Ultra Realistic

Presumably they just want it more, like, well, what it was in the Alola games, SWSH, and now Legends Arceus. Or the in-battle stylings.
 
Why people are hating the chibi style?
I think it's cute. It's a game for 12 yo children... We can't expect Infernape to start bleeding if attacked.
To be fair, it's more a case of hating the *original* chibi style that was shown at the initial teaser.

The one they shown looked horribly unpolished, had some weird proportion issues, the textures were awful too.
The one shown in the latest trailer actually received much more positive feedback.

(Obviously, there's also some people who just dont like chibi in first place, personally I like it, I just find the contrast between the chibi overworld and in-battle realistic scenes a bit *too* impactful, I would have preferred a halfway option like XY did)
 

Pikachu315111

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Also that's not just a different cover the two books are literally Pokemon-ing this: each book will have "slightly different" art in it
... Why GF. Why complicate what should be a simple artbook. Like, for little figurines it was fine as you were basing them on the mascot Legendary. But in what way are you splitting up the artbook that there's "version exclusive" content. Surely there's not enough Dialga and Palkia art that you're splitting them up that way. Look, people who purchase the game won't care if you get the same pre-order item for both versions. Heck, the cover art alone you could justify being enough of a difference.
 
What lovely cover artwork.
From the explainer on the website (translated thanks to DeepL) it will have concept art for BDSP as well as the original DP. That'll be fun.
I wonder how BDSP concept art will differ from DP. "Screenshot mockups" and "Grand Underground" are the only things I can think of.
 
I wonder how BDSP concept art will differ from DP. "Screenshot mockups" and "Grand Underground" are the only things I can think of.
They'll likely show stuff like the process behind designign the chibi stylings in 3D, artwork for the outfits and likely anything needed to bring the trainers to life in 3D, as well as any concept art the designers might have made so they them selves have a sense of how to replicate the original.
Battle backgrounds too, probably.

To be fair, it's more a case of hating the *original* chibi style that was shown at the initial teaser.

The one they shown looked horribly unpolished, had some weird proportion issues, the textures were awful too.
The one shown in the latest trailer actually received much more positive feedback.

(Obviously, there's also some people who just dont like chibi in first place, personally I like it, I just find the contrast between the chibi overworld and in-battle realistic scenes a bit *too* impactful, I would have preferred a halfway option like XY did)
Honestly....lowkey....I kind of wonder how much reception to the initial trailer had them very specifically try to "fix" things they otherwise wouldn't have.

Like this is pure conspiracy, I realize, but i just keep looking at the BDSP renders. They are so flat and sterile....a lot like the initial reveal trailer. It's really stark comparing Roark's render with Roark's actual in-game appearence, where more natural lighting and little tweaks here & there make him have more more "pop" despite ostensibly being the same model. Or more to the point, the player characters.
 
Honestly....lowkey....I kind of wonder how much reception to the initial trailer had them very specifically try to "fix" things they otherwise wouldn't have.
I don't doubt the critiques they got for the initial teaser gave a "direction" to what needed to be fixed first.

Ultimately that's also something you use early trailers for, see the reactions of the potential buyers.
 

Yung Dramps

awesome gaming
I wonder how BDSP concept art will differ from DP. "Screenshot mockups" and "Grand Underground" are the only things I can think of.
This is a good time to remind people that there's no way we've seen the end of BDSP's new content. Even DPPt carryovers like the Poketch have yet to receive elaboration, and we can already sus out altered places like Pal Park and Amity Square just from the map alone. That's to say nothing of how with their modern marketing approaching there's sure to be things kept hidden until release. In short, this trailer is just the beginning
 
I need to make an amendment to my Brilliant Diamond team. I'm not picking Turtwig, but actually Chimchar, because Infernape is my favorite Pokemon (for real this time)

Right now I have: Infernape, Garchomp, Floatzel/Manaphy, and maybe Staraptor

I want to use Floatzel because of an inside joke between me and my friend and I like it's design but I also might want to use Manaphy cause it's cute and Tail Glow is fun probably. Staraptor is a Pokemon whose design I'm not sure if I like or not but I think I might use it. Infernape and Garchomp are a given and not going anywhere. I kinda want to trade a Turtwig into my file so I can use both lol

Edit: Just realized I could maybe do some sort of crappy, pseudo rain team if I give Floatzel or Manaphy Rain Dance since both of their abilities compliment it...it's not perfect but just maybe...
 
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I also might want to use Manaphy cause it's cute and Tail Glow is fun probably.
I recently used Manaphy on my Regenade Planitum locke because it outclasses every other bulky water. Tail Glow + base 100 pure water type is broken. Tail Glow in itself is broken and the only mons that get it are Manaphy, Volbeat (who lack the stats) and Xurkitree (lacks the speed and overall bulkyness). I've banned Manaphy from my future BDSP team but mon is so fun ye.

PS: Also IA has no way of countering encore. Encore (with Togekiss for example which u get as a Togepi egg) into Manaphy + 2/3 tail glows and everything falls.
 
I think that having an issue with the chibi style does not mean people want Ultra Realistic

Presumably they just want it more, like, well, what it was in the Alola games, SWSH, and now Legends Arceus. Or the in-battle stylings.
To be fair, it's more a case of hating the *original* chibi style that was shown at the initial teaser.

The one they shown looked horribly unpolished, had some weird proportion issues, the textures were awful too.
The one shown in the latest trailer actually received much more positive feedback.

(Obviously, there's also some people who just dont like chibi in first place, personally I like it, I just find the contrast between the chibi overworld and in-battle realistic scenes a bit *too* impactful, I would have preferred a halfway option like XY did)
I understand the concerns and I expressed myself poorly.
What I actually wanted to say: People judged the initial trailer like it was the final version. It's like that tree on the initial trailer from Sw/Sh.

In the end, Pokemon will always be the same game we've been playing since the late 90s. Unless Legends changes it, which I hope so.

Those titles are the least probable to have innovations of any kind. They are remakes of beloved classics, made by other developers. If they screw up anything, they will be marked for eternity. This is why the games will be so loyal to the originals one.
 
What I actually wanted to say: People judged the initial trailer like it was the final version.
Problem is, this is very very bad from TPCI in first place, to accept that a early alpha iteration of the game was shown.

One thing is a incomplete but well on the way game, another one is a game with literal alpha footage presented as the teaser.
On a game that, notably, has NO content to develop as 99% of it is a 1:1 of DP.

And much worse, if you notice, there's even discordance between parts of the trailer, with the UI itself, with for example the intro cutscene of wild battles being different between some of the sequences.

So even this trailer wasnt even the actual game, but a bunch of multiple versions stuck toghether.

This is actually a really big problem, because it shows that TPCI is likely forcing the release dates again, and just demanded a trailer ready for the 25th anniversary no matter if the game wasnt ready.

And remember what happened with SwSh? That Dexit had to happen due to release date being too soon and not being able to actually get the pokemon animations done in time?

With both Arceus Legends and BDSP showing the same sign of "game is incomplete yet we already accept preorders", this is actually a very bothersome scenario for what concerns the future releases of the game.

As much as I enjoy Pokemon and usually defend GameFreaks, being forced on a "release incomplete game, patch rest later, people are sheeps they'll buy it anyway" by TPCI (or whoever decides the release schedule) is *very* bothersome and how certain other companies have ruined themselves.
It's true, buyers are mostly kids that may not care, but there is a limit even for these.
 
While release date woes are absolutely going to cause issues for this series until they literally can't handle it any more and also I would not be surprised if that was at play here...

I am not going to call the initial reveal anything akin to an "alpha". That's just blatant exaggeration. The biggest differences visually are some texture touch ups and lighting: the rest of the game looks fairly similar and no one had any real (that is to say, other than the general style of the game) issues with the environments or battles as shown. The game was likely pretty far along.

In most games this is probably pretty normal. Various Mario games have had a notable amount of visual flair touch ups and such between reveal & release, as an example. Smash Bros ultimate's big reveal trailer literally had models breaking & the demo for the game had incomplete assets and that game was due in 6 months.

It was shocking for Pokemon because generally they don't do that (Let's Go I swear got a bit of a downgrade....and ya'll those wild area trees still look real bad). But this time, they did for both BDSP AND Legends Arceus.

e: This iis all a lot of words to say "saying the game was basically incomplete at reveal because the lighting & textures improved" is a bit much
 
There is one thing I'm wondering: Do you think Gamefreak knows about people wanting Megas back? Do you think they think the amount of people that want them back are enough to warrant bringing them back in, say Gen 9?

I never really thought that Megas would return in BDSP, but I do wonder if it's something they considered at one point.
 
I am not going to call the initial reveal anything akin to an "alpha". That's just blatant exaggeration. The biggest differences visually are some texture touch ups and lighting: the rest of the game looks fairly similar and no one had any real (that is to say, other than the general style of the game) issues with the environments or battles as shown. The game was likely pretty far along.

..

e: This iis all a lot of words to say "saying the game was basically incomplete at reveal because the lighting & textures improved" is a bit much
You see, I used to think about the same, but I've watched a bit of video analysis of the trailers, and there's more of graphic changes than just lightning and textures, way more. Some areas had NPCs moved or changed, the camera got redesigned, the UI got actually changed between parts *of the same trailer*.

Now, while I am personally still fine that they are at least improving both games, the "we will show incomplete footage yet accept preorder" is a practice that has been well known in certain other companies that have gradually degraded... and it's not something I am happy to see from TPCI.

While they have shown early footage in previous cases, it wasnt *this* bad of a difference from the final product. Even SwSh early footage wasnt very far from the final product (and yes, the tree is still there).
It's even bigger of a offender for BDSP, because this game is basically only a graphic update: there's no story to design, no NPCs to program, no mechanics to implement, there's already a solid core to just copy with a couple refreshed features and that's it.

late edit: I want to clarify better, I am not criticizing the games (which I think are looking well and I'm 99% going to get), or the trailers, I am criticizing the practice of using footage that's not actually representative of the game as base for preorders. It's a dangerous shenenigan and we've seen where it led stuff like Blizzard and Bethesda when they realized they can abuse it.
 
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You see, I used to think about the same, but I've watched a bit of video analysis of the trailers, and there's more of graphic changes than just lightning and textures, way more. Some areas had NPCs moved or changed, the camera got redesigned, the UI got actually changed between parts *of the same trailer*.

Now, while I am personally still fine that they are at least improving both games, the "we will show incomplete footage yet accept preorder" is a practice that has been well known in certain other companies that have gradually degraded... and it's not something I am happy to see from TPCI.

While they have shown early footage in previous cases, it wasnt *this* bad of a difference from the final product. Even SwSh early footage wasnt very far from the final product (and yes, the tree is still there).
It's even bigger of a offender for BDSP, because this game is basically only a graphic update: there's no story to design, no NPCs to program, no mechanics to implement, there's already a solid core to just copy with a couple refreshed features and that's it.

late edit: I want to clarify better, I am not criticizing the games (which I think are looking well and I'm 99% going to get), or the trailers, I am criticizing the practice of using footage that's not actually representative of the game as base for preorders. It's a dangerous shenenigan and we've seen where it led stuff like Blizzard and Bethesda when they realized they can abuse it.
I skimmed the video (mostly for comparisons) and honestly I'm still not seeing anything major enough to have this kind of reaction (though the camera positioning is pretty interesting to see side by side). The bulk of the game is still unified enough to make a major decision like preorder, as shown by, I think, the fact that no one's really brought up any inter-trailer inconsistencies.

I dont know I think at this point we're just going to have to agree to disagree. Consider me more of a development optimist in this situation
 
I dont know I think at this point we're just going to have to agree to disagree. Consider me more of a development optimist in this situation
It's not much a case of disagreement tbh, I think we're just looking at 2 separate things.

I'm optimistic about the development of the *games* (as I said, I think they're looking great in fact) but I'm skeptical about the direction the mother company has been taking as far as advertising and design philosophy is going.
 
Game Freak has been hindered by technology.

Back when Pokémon main series was for portable systems, Pokémon could seriously contend with any jRPG you can think of, mainly because during the 1990-2000s era, apart from Golden Sun (which did not came until GBA), jRPGs were seen (and still are, just look at Dragon Quest, SMT or Persona) and a few others, most heavy RPGs were designed for non-portable systems (SoA [DC], FF [SNES, then PSX], Dragon Quest [jumped from NES to SNES, same as FF], and so on, so on, so on, in the 2000+ eras they kept developing these kind of games mainly for PS2/GC, and not only jRPGs, but any kind of RPG (Tales of Symphonia was initially exclusive of GC, same happened to other aRPGs), and handheld systems were mostly suited for sRPGs (tactics, advance war, Fire Emblem, this one being a curious case because FE jumped from NES/NES to GBA and then, apart from 2 tittles that were developed for GC and Wii, became a handheld franchise).

What I mean is, during those times, (from GB to even NDS), when development time needed was much shorter and also the investment of money was noticeably inferior, you could literally compare in terms of quality any past Pokémon game to the greatest jRPG you can think of because if you exclude the ones like Chrono Trigger or other classic jRPGs focused on long stories and good narrative, there wasn't anything like Pokémon. Not even the franchises it is based on, like the DQ Monsters subsaga. In terms of technical quality, all the handheld games are pretty similar. For sure, there are a few that look better than others, but let's say there's no real difference between a Wario Land 3 or a Pokémon Ruby, both look just fine. And that was the thing back then: games looked "just fine". But then they felt obligated to change everything.

Videogames, specially after the 3D open world paradigm began, are about comparisons. What was Pokémon Gold? Pokémon Gold. What is Pokémon Sword and Shield? Worse Breath of the Wild. Worse Xenoblade. Worse... Here's the thing. After games, even handheld games, started to improve graphically, Game Freak couldn't afford to keep doing Pokémon in NDS style. Now, Nintendo Switch is an hybrid system, this is the first time in Nintendo history that big companies can not develop classic portable games to Switch, because Switch is like Nintendo Wii, or Game Cube, or Wii U, or SNES. It is where the BIG games, and not the handheld games, belong to. Game Freak is a handheld company forced to suddenly develop games for a big system, and thats why they are having so much problems regarding technical issues and overall quality of graphics (in this sense, Sword and Shield are rushed, very rushed, in fact, til this day I do sincerely believe that Dexit wasn't their intention, and that they somehow messed up and, because it was impossible to delay the games due to TPC pressure, they just improvised on the fly (therefor the -now proved- lies of "we are doing this to improve the animations") and used that error to sell 2 DLCs, but that's another theme.

As a fan of Pokémon, and knowing that Game Freak has not the best team when it comes to programming, I'm not asking for BotW, XenoSaga, MH graphics, nor story or narrative or character development. No. I'd be happy with SwSh graphics on Switch (polishing a lot of aspects, like c'mon, those Pokémon dissapearing because potato, the infamous popping, framerate in wild areas online, the ladders thing, walking animations, character expresiveness, etc, etc), but they need to relax themselves in what matters the most and focus on content. Pokémon is about content. There's no single jRPG in the history of videogames with a formula that equals Pokémon formula. There just isn't. With minor effort on the technical side, you can offer games with lot of things to do. It isn't even difficult. How many hours can you put into a standard jRPG? 50, 60, 100 hours? They are substantially longer than Pokémon. Ok. Then you finish it, what now? And that's where Pokémon formula has always shined. You have the possibility of trading AND fighting others for dozens of hours, you have the possibility of learn to (if you still don't) breed, then use those Pokémon to confront Battle Facilities, because Pokémon has an actual metagame, it has an actual competitive, strategized side of gameplay that most games of its genre lacks.

Just to put one real example, a Pokémon game with a story worth of 20-30 hours of gameplay, with a Wild Area, some "sidequests", 500 to 600 wild Pokémon + the possibility of obtaining others via transfer, co-op and online battles, underground, contests, PokéWood, a noticeable post-game the likes of BW2 after the main story where you get to obtain some more legendaries and met some characters and fight some high leveled trainers, with a battle frontier, new or recycled, with 4 or 5 facilities, something akin to secret bases and a Join Avenue, rematches, 10 or 12 legendaries with in-game locations/events, alternate post-game challenges similar to the white treehollow/black skyscrapper, radar or some new tech with shiny hunting, more customizable options in online battles and... and that's it.

And you've done NOTHING new really. You've just implemented things from past games (not even all of them), and just with that, you've a game worthy of 200-300 hours of gameplay BEFORE you even have time to start burning hours doing your preferred shit (breeding or whatever). And no jRPG, no one to this day, has this much potential in terms of replayability.
 

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