Sticky Pokemon Direct - 6th June Discussion - Pokemon Ultra Sun and Ultra Moon

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Hopefully this time around the make the elite four less tedious too battle. Everytime I wqnt to raise a competetive pokemon it takes forever even with after being fed 3 rainbow beans and holding a lucky egg. And why even in the rematches they are only lv.63 at the most and even then most of the Champion Defense matches are only lv.61. Not too mention how Festival Plaza is basically a neutered Join Avenue. i remember in the days of Black/White 2 I could get a Pokemon up to Level 60-ish(Except Zweilous) by fighting a proper post-game elite four that was lv.77-83 In Challenge mode. Then having the gyms in Join Avenue maxed out I could get that Pokemon past Lv.80 even though it would cost me alot. But considering how they put in Hyper Training and no easy way to get your Pokemon to a high level is just ridiculous. And the elite four should only be types that can be taken out with Grass/Fire and Water. There levels should be at least 75. And there should be enough post-game battle wise to ensure your team that is lv.53 ish will be able to face them competently. And stop giving all the ghost type members Frosslass. And quit giving there pokemon sturdy. I shouldnt have to waste a turn setting up stealth rock so my Lv.95 Machamp(Was hatched and raised in BW2) Can take out a Golem with Close Combat. And can't there be some postgame area ala Black Tower/White Treehollow that could be scaled based on your team's levels that exists only so your Pokemon can gain experience. Im not so sure this belongs here but Just hopefully UltraSUMO(I love saying that) Irons out most of the kinks so I don't have to pay $40 and spend another 30ish hours to play through Moon so I can have Pokemon that are a competent level.
 

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i haven't played oras or sm... do you guys think it's finally time to dust off my ds and pop them in to play before these new games?
 
Well, yes Z-Moves accomplish what Game Freak set out to with them (other than trying to develop another cash-cow mechanic), which was to give less used Pokemon a possible use. However, the unintended side effects of going with the Z system are pretty severe.

The biggest difference between Z-Moves and Megas (other than one is a temporary evolution, and one is a single use move), is the complexity. Megas are not very hard to use, you slap on the matching crystal, hit evolve button, and out pops an epic-er looking Pokemon. Z-Moves, on the other hand, take a lot more skill to master unless you're just using them as nukes (as I'm sure 99% of casual players use them), because there's a whole list of effects that can take place depending on which move you use with the Z-Crystal.

Here in lies the problem. Casual players don't know/want to know the in-depth effects of what they use to battle, they're playing the game for the catharsis of completing the game/post-game, not the meta battling. So while it takes a long time to learn what each and every Z-Move does (something I'm pretty sure most people don't even know completely), megas just require you to know cool Pokemon -> Mega cool Pokemon with more stats/different ability. Megas have a much clearer effect for the average player than Z-Moves.

Moreover, Megas are just not as boring as Z-Moves. You can go into your Mega fast, and while its the same process every time, you aren't stuck watching a long cutscene. Z-Moves however, have a fairly lengthy cutscene, that looks cool, but after getting watching it for the 30th time, it feels more like a chore than a fun battle mechanic.

As a result, we've been seeing a large decrease in active players within the Pokemon community. Of course, this is compounded with all the problems of the Alola region (most notably the change from the PSS to the Festival Plaza, gtfo the moron who thought that was a good idea), but it's still a significant problem beacuse it's such a hyped mechanic. Casual players simply do not want to play through Sun and Moon or continue playing it, because while it's fun initially, it gets boring fast. I have a handful of friends, of whom all have played from Gen 3 and up, and literally I am the only one playing at this point only beacuse I'm in the competitive scene. Most of them didn't even get off the first island before they stopped playing.

Z-Moves aren't bad, but they're geared towards competitive play, not casual play. As a result, they only hurt the franchise by turning off new and casual players. Pokemon isn't defined by the meta, and how 'different' and 'variable' the meta is, it's ultimately defined by all the people who play it. If most of the people who play it aren't returning/continuing to play your game, you've done something wrong.

Of course, Game Freak has made some bad choices with the Megas that hurt the meta. Mega Metagross is pretty hard to counter in the meta, and Mega Garchomp is completely redundant. But, Megas have had some success stories to. Beedrill went from being a pretty mediocre Pokemon, to an OU Behemoth. Banette turned into a decent mon with a massive Attack and access to Prankster, one of the best abilities in the game. Glaile took the spotlight with Refrigerate, and became one of the most fun grenades I used in ORAS, even when I lost. As long as Game Freak chooses the right Pokemon to Mega, then they'll work fine. They don't need to redefine the Meta, they just need to be fun to use.
Good points, and given all the fan megas and requests for megas, yes Megas are definitely a fan favorite. Hence why they didn't abandon them completely. (They did ban them from VGC this year, despite all the mega stones for Pokemon in the Alola Pokedex being obtainable in-game.) Given that Nintendo has apparently been making an attempt to keep VGC balanced, however, Megas do pose a bit of a pickle: On the one hand you have a widely popular mechanic that people are clamoring for more of, on the other hand... CHALK, and MegaKhan in general, did dampen people's enthusaism for joining VGC, and is arguably the root of the "VGC is stale, boring, and has no variety" complaints.

And hey, I will admit that my own personal feelings towards mega evolution is tinting my judgement of them. I am not a fan of how centralizing they are to the whole team building process, since it is "pick a mega then build the team around it" in most cases. Perhaps more choice will help alleviate that issue though, since it would be easier to pick a Mega to go with your team if there are multiple viable choices.

And yeah, Mega had essentially become mandatory (but then again the meta game had always been a bit centralized around certain Pokemon (Sun & Moon being no exception, hi Celesteela). Mega just gives some Pokemon a chance to be added to this centralization), but I do feel the same can be said for Z-Moves. Sure, you could probably make a team without Z-Move and do perfectly fine, but then again having a potential 1HKO nuke move is very tempting and can easily change a tide of a battle.
Metagames in general always centralize around certain points, which is their whole deal. And I reckon I should mention that i tend to play more VGC than other formats, where you do have the option to not bring your mega... but given how important it is to the team, since generally it is the focal point, that tends to happen in situations where you face an opponent who really hates your chosen mega.

Z-moves, at least to me, do not seem as centralizing to the team building process because you both have more freedom of choice and don't feel as obligated to just simply use it. Yes, you will generally want to put a Z-crystal on one of your Pokemon because either the one-time nuke is extremely attractive or the effect on the status move is a huge help to your team in general. But unlike Megas, a Pokemon with a Z-crystal isn't usually the central "build around this" Pokemon on a team. You dont base your team composition based on supporting your Z-Crystal choice, rather you base your Z-Crystal choice based on your team composition. You could pick it to rip a huge hole in a wall on a wallbreaker, ambush a would be problem with a lure, or just deal tons of damage in general. And then there's other things like guaranteeing a Belly Drum, Z-Conversion shenanigans, enhancing stat boosting moves, and Z-Parting Shot as an enhanced form of Wish Passing.

Honestly thinking about it all though, I think there needs to be a few more Megas in the games for a lot of the issues I have with it to be solved. Given how popular they are, it would be silly to assume we won't get anymore anyways.
 
i haven't played oras or sm... do you guys think it's finally time to dust off my ds and pop them in to play before these new games?
ORAS is pretty fun with a large post-game and plenty of the past Legendaries for your to capture. If you played RSE, it might be a bit too familiar, but with fantastic use of the game engine for the cutscenes, it really brings a lot of the epic moments to life. Furthermore, the PSS helps to bring a sense of community to the game, which makes it a lot more enjoyable to play through. The use of the Latio/as method to fly also helps display the size and grandiose scale of Hoenn better than any other game in the series, and DexNav makes it a lot easier to find your favorite Pokemon for use/breeding, and for chaining shines.

SM is mediocre. While the in-game story line is better than past games, and the graphics are visually stunning for the 3DS (unless you only have a Day-1 copy 3DS, in which case all non-single battles lag like crazy), a lot of the new mechanics and changes feel campy at best, and tiresome at worse. The Festival Plaza hurts the longevity of the online community, and Z-Move cutscenes while interesting, get annoying after seeing them countless times. S.O.S battles, designed to replace Hordes beacuse of system limitations, can get annoying for players who simply wish to finish the game. Furthermore, the Postgame is severely lacking (not to XY levels, but pretty bad), and other than a few choice interactions you'll get after completing the main series, your only option is the Battle Tree. Changes to breeding mechanics along with the addition of the Poke Pelago (or at least most of it) are great for people who play the meta, however they are not for casual players.

Of course, that's a pretty simplistic summary, there are a lot of minute details that effect each game, and ultimately it's up to personal preference, though of course you need SM to play in the current meta, while ORAS is past-gen now. I personally would recommend ORAS over SM if it's either/or for you, and then wait to see how USUM are before diving in to Alola.
 
But they didn't ditch it, the Mega that exist still are still here. If anything, if they felt Mega are a problem then abandoning it is the worst thing they can do as that means whatever problems the existing Mega Pokemon caused to make them feel this way now won't be fixed. Pokemon traits aren't set in stone, if they feel they made certain Mega Pokemon too powerful they could edit their stats, typing, and Ability to iron out the problem they have with it.

Also they didn't want to do any more Mega Pokemon yet perfectly happy to add in Battle Bond Greninja.
Yeah, I meant "ditch" as in gave up on working on the concept, the phrasing was bad.

I too wish they would have fixed them beyond some small nerfs, but that was probably time they probably didn't have or didn't want to spend.
 
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Okay, I'm going to go out on a limb and guess that Celebi will get an exclusive Z-Move like Mew did. Transfer your GS Pokemon to USUM and then you get it. Maybe it sets like Grassy Terrain or something.
 
But they didn't ditch it, the Mega that exist still are still here. If anything, if they felt Mega are a problem then abandoning it is the worst thing they can do as that means whatever problems the existing Mega Pokemon caused to make them feel this way now won't be fixed. Pokemon traits aren't set in stone, if they feel they made certain Mega Pokemon too powerful they could edit their stats, typing, and Ability to iron out the problem they have with it.
For all we know perhaps Megas could be banned forever in VGC outside of weird formats like VGC16.

They can stop supporting a mechanic yet let those who want to use it keep using it. Outside of official-sanctioned tournaments, that is.

(Although this always keeps raising Gems into the question and why they both nerfed them and made them unavailable to use outside of Normal Gems)

Okay, I'm going to go out on a limb and guess that Celebi will get an exclusive Z-Move like Mew did. Transfer your GS Pokemon to USUM and then you get it. Maybe it sets like Grassy Terrain or something.
It wouldn't be strange if they did do something like this.

(On the matter on GS on VC, the website does not state anything about when they will be compatible with Pokebank, so chances are this will happen similarly to RBY. As in, compatibility being added a little late)
 

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I'm just glad there's a place in the Pokemon community safe from "WTF NO SINNOH REMAKES/SWITCH GAME SCREW YOU GF". I mean, sure I was looking forward to that, but sequels (and GS VC) will do nicely. Besides, they'll complain complain complain and buy the games anyway.
There will always be complaining, one just has to get used to that. There was quite some ruckus when XY were announced for the 3DS; lots of upset DS owners who didn't want to buy a new console to play XY when the DS worked just fine.
 
It's natural that they want to get as much from the 3DS as possible, and obviously they weren't done with Alola yet, so it makes sense to put it on that platform. Hopefully the next entry in the franchise will be on the Switch.
 
Well, yes Z-Moves accomplish what Game Freak set out to with them (other than trying to develop another cash-cow mechanic), which was to give less used Pokemon a possible use. However, the unintended side effects of going with the Z system are pretty severe.

The biggest difference between Z-Moves and Megas (other than one is a temporary evolution, and one is a single use move), is the complexity. Megas are not very hard to use, you slap on the matching crystal, hit evolve button, and out pops an epic-er looking Pokemon. Z-Moves, on the other hand, take a lot more skill to master unless you're just using them as nukes (as I'm sure 99% of casual players use them), because there's a whole list of effects that can take place depending on which move you use with the Z-Crystal.

Here in lies the problem. Casual players don't know/want to know the in-depth effects of what they use to battle, they're playing the game for the catharsis of completing the game/post-game, not the meta battling. So while it takes a long time to learn what each and every Z-Move does (something I'm pretty sure most people don't even know completely), megas just require you to know cool Pokemon -> Mega cool Pokemon with more stats/different ability. Megas have a much clearer effect for the average player than Z-Moves.

Moreover, Megas are just not as boring as Z-Moves. You can go into your Mega fast, and while its the same process every time, you aren't stuck watching a long cutscene. Z-Moves however, have a fairly lengthy cutscene, that looks cool, but after getting watching it for the 30th time, it feels more like a chore than a fun battle mechanic.

As a result, we've been seeing a large decrease in active players within the Pokemon community. Of course, this is compounded with all the problems of the Alola region (most notably the change from the PSS to the Festival Plaza, gtfo the moron who thought that was a good idea), but it's still a significant problem beacuse it's such a hyped mechanic. Casual players simply do not want to play through Sun and Moon or continue playing it, because while it's fun initially, it gets boring fast. I have a handful of friends, of whom all have played from Gen 3 and up, and literally I am the only one playing at this point only beacuse I'm in the competitive scene. Most of them didn't even get off the first island before they stopped playing.

Z-Moves aren't bad, but they're geared towards competitive play, not casual play. As a result, they only hurt the franchise by turning off new and casual players. Pokemon isn't defined by the meta, and how 'different' and 'variable' the meta is, it's ultimately defined by all the people who play it. If most of the people who play it aren't returning/continuing to play your game, you've done something wrong.

Of course, Game Freak has made some bad choices with the Megas that hurt the meta. Mega Metagross is pretty hard to counter in the meta, and Mega Garchomp is completely redundant. But, Megas have had some success stories to. Beedrill went from being a pretty mediocre Pokemon, to an OU Behemoth. Banette turned into a decent mon with a massive Attack and access to Prankster, one of the best abilities in the game. Glaile took the spotlight with Refrigerate, and became one of the most fun grenades I used in ORAS, even when I lost. As long as Game Freak chooses the right Pokemon to Mega, then they'll work fine. They don't need to redefine the Meta, they just need to be fun to use.
I think you're wrong about why people stopped playing Sun and Moon
every person I've ever seen talking about how they dropped them always say the same; they got tired of all the hand holding, it killed the exploration for them (a large part of why casual players like pokemon), it killed replayability, in short it killed the games for them

but if you know the history of Diamond & Pearl you know why Gamefreak will continue to hold our hands tightly (very tightly)
 
i haven't played oras or sm... do you guys think it's finally time to dust off my ds and pop them in to play before these new games?
Both games are actually good and have their own positive and negative sides, but I would suggest you to play SM first, especially if you are planning to play the USUM games as well later. While we have no idea how the incoming games will be, I bet they will have many continuity nods, especially if they will be like B2W2.

ORAS are more standalone games, so you can play them at a later time without issues.
 
I think you're wrong about why people stopped playing Sun and Moon
every person I've ever seen talking about how they dropped them always say the same; they got tired of all the hand holding, it killed the exploration for them (a large part of why casual players like pokemon), it killed replayability, in short it killed the games for them

but if you know the history of Diamond & Pearl you know why Gamefreak will continue to hold our hands tightly (very tightly)
Well, like every issue, a large amount of variables go into compounding a problem. For example, you could argue that the entire issue in regards to the U.S. prison epidemic is a result of the under funding of police. While you aren't wrong, there are plenty of other issues that compound the problem, such as mandatory sentencing, racial discrimination, socio-economic differences, for-profit prisons, etc.

As I said in my OP, there are a lot of problems that result in the dwindling of the active player base of Alola, including, but not limited to, Z-Moves, the Festival Plaza, etc. The lack of a challenging atmosphere is certainly one among many. Going in depth on why each severely hurt the Alola region was not the intention of my OP, rather to highlight why Z-Moves were worse for the longevity of the games in comparison with Megas.

If you want me to go in-depth on every single issue Alola suffers from, and how each affected the longevity of the games, I could, but I'd rather save that for this thread, where I've talked about some of this before.
 
I'm just glad that I can attempt to hunt for a shiny Multiscale Lugia and shiny Regenerator Ho-Oh in the VC games assuming they keep the feature of VC mons transferring with their hidden abilities.

Also, if Crystal ever gets released, we can have a (shiny) Multiscale Flamethrower Lugia lmao

Edit: nvm, Serebii is wrong...it has it listed that Lugia could learn flamethrower as a tutor move and apparently it can't.
 
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The GS VC release means you can now play every single main-series region on a single device. Don't know if that means anything, but I think it's pretty cool, and a testament to the strength of the 3DS as a console.
We could already as you can play HGSS on the 3DS.

Now, if we got Ruby and Sapphire on Virtual Console then we could play every generation on the 3DS. Not seeing that happening, though. Maybe on the Switch...
 
We could already as you can play HGSS on the 3DS.

Now, if we got Ruby and Sapphire on Virtual Console then we could play every generation on the 3DS. Not seeing that happening, though. Maybe on the Switch...
I can see next year's pre E3 Pokemon Direct now. "Introducing Pokemon 'Ultra Super Sun Third Strike DX Tournament Edition & Knuckles' version and Pokemon 'Ultra Super Moon Third Strike DX Tournament Edition & Knuckles' version! Also Gen 3 remakes with Bank Support."
 
I think you're wrong about why people stopped playing Sun and Moon
every person I've ever seen talking about how they dropped them always say the same; they got tired of all the hand holding, it killed the exploration for them (a large part of why casual players like pokemon), it killed replayability, in short it killed the games for them

but if you know the history of Diamond & Pearl you know why Gamefreak will continue to hold our hands tightly (very tightly)
I don't disagree with either of you on this. Sun and Moon had a lot of initial appeal leading up to its release and playing through the story was enjoyable in many ways. But, for maybe the second generation (5th gen), I really wasn't engaged at all to play beyond the Elite 4. If USUM is comparable to BW2 however (I did not play any 5th gen much but playing through BW2 much later after its release, I slightly regretted not experiencing it more), then it might be a more worth while game. No disappointment on my end about the announcement though not much excitement either - I think it's good that they're finishing what they started (unlike poor XY, the only generational anomaly to not have any sequel/third game).

Pokemon has existed for over 20 years and with the release of GS on the VC, every single game ever released will be connected (er, then again, Crystal...?). USUM really feels like it could be an excellent way to introduce some closure to one large chapter of Pokemon and possibly start anew thereafter. Maybe I'm wrong and Pokemon can continue to flourish with the same formula for another 20 years, but with the release of the Switch and its potential for the series, USUM could be the swan song for one big era of Pokemon. I won't go too off topic here though speculating what's to come after, just speculating a bit on what kind of a game USUM could be in relation to what the next generation might entail.

Here's to hoping for some exciting new games and that GS hasn't aged too much!
 
Hopefully this time around the make the elite four less tedious too battle. Everytime I wqnt to raise a competetive pokemon it takes forever even with after being fed 3 rainbow beans and holding a lucky egg. And why even in the rematches they are only lv.63 at the most and even then most of the Champion Defense matches are only lv.61. Not too mention how Festival Plaza is basically a neutered Join Avenue. i remember in the days of Black/White 2 I could get a Pokemon up to Level 60-ish(Except Zweilous) by fighting a proper post-game elite four that was lv.77-83 In Challenge mode. Then having the gyms in Join Avenue maxed out I could get that Pokemon past Lv.80 even though it would cost me alot. But considering how they put in Hyper Training and no easy way to get your Pokemon to a high level is just ridiculous. And the elite four should only be types that can be taken out with Grass/Fire and Water. There levels should be at least 75. And there should be enough post-game battle wise to ensure your team that is lv.53 ish will be able to face them competently. And stop giving all the ghost type members Frosslass. And quit giving there pokemon sturdy. I shouldnt have to waste a turn setting up stealth rock so my Lv.95 Machamp(Was hatched and raised in BW2) Can take out a Golem with Close Combat. And can't there be some postgame area ala Black Tower/White Treehollow that could be scaled based on your team's levels that exists only so your Pokemon can gain experience. Im not so sure this belongs here but Just hopefully UltraSUMO(I love saying that) Irons out most of the kinks so I don't have to pay $40 and spend another 30ish hours to play through Moon so I can have Pokemon that are a competent level.
To be quite honest, you're doing it wrong. Poni Gauntlet is faster than E4 to level up because you don't have the cutscenes. And when your Pokémon hits level 66, you only need two Rare Kitchen 5* and 2 Rare Candies to take it to level 100. It takes me around half an hour, without the need to grind for FCs, since I have over 8000 with all the events.
 
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