Pokemon Heartgold and Soulsilver In-Game Tier List (MkII)

HeartGold and SoulSilver In-Game Tier List

Old Tier List: https://www.smogon.com/ingame/guides/hgss_ingame_tier
Old discussion: https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/heartgold-and-soulsilver-ingame-tiers.3477203/
Approval Status: Approved by DHR-107

(I would like to thank Drumsticks for allowing me to use his layout)

Greetings everyone. If you've been browsing the Orange Islands and taking in the sights, you'll notice that there are In-Game Tier lists. Some are ongoing from several years ago and some have restarted. HGSS ended two years ago with no definitive outcome and the old tier list is rather old. My aim is to revive it, modernize it, and fix it by doing a complete Tier List. Some of you may have some apprehension about a new user having a massive undertaking like this, but I assure you I am not new leading threads. Moving onto our pool of Pokemon. HGSS has a fairly large pool, and this pool has its issues. Most of the Pokemon can't REALLY be used. In fact, some can be easily placed in tiers. My aim is to see where the Pokemon of HGSS should truly call home. Without further ado, let's get this show on the road.
Pokeathlon FOREVER!


HGSS Tiering pic.png


What is an In-Game Tier List?
In-game tier lists rank Pokemon based on their viability and usefulness throughout an entire playthrough of either game. Regarding HGSS, this means from New Bark Town to the moment you beat Lance at the League. The tester can continue into Kanto and fight Red, however this will not affect the placement as the test officially ends once the League has been beaten. I apologize for those that wished to fight Red for their testing. HGSS is a different game from GSC.

What are Tiers?

In this tier list we originally had 10 tiers. I am dropping this down to 6 including an Untiered. The list as follows:

S-Tier (Uber Tier)
A-Tier (Top Tier)
B-Tier (High Tier)
C-Tier (Upper and Mid Tier)
D-Tier (Lower Mid and Low Tier)
E-Tier (Bottom Tier and Basement)
Untiered


The tier list is alphabetized for convenience. The higher tier a Pokemon is in the more it contributes within an efficient playthrough. You will likely note that this differs from the old tier list in that Top/High/Upper Mid/Mid/Low Mid/Low don't exist (this is because we have gradually shifted from the S-E set of tiers over time, which is one of the reasons why I wanted to update it). In addition, we're tiering Pokemon based on their performance in teams of 3 to 5 Pokemon because those teams are most common among casual players. However, for HGSS, 4 is optimal. This is entirely up to the tester though. A discussion slate will be ongoing for the Pokemon being tested which will be listed at the end of my posts. This is to keep us on track. However, it is not mandatory for the tester to post his progress unless said tester wants to.

Why is a Pokémon in a certain tier?

Pokemon are ranked under the following 5 factors:

Availability: This is how early a Pokemon arrives in the game and how hard it is to find (read: encounter rate). Does it require backtracking, HM moves, or otherwise have a low encounter rate?

Typing - A Pokemon's typing can be of great importance for an efficiency playthrough. How does the typing match-up work against the entire game? If a Pokemon has better typing it is often considered a higher rank..

Stats - A Pokemon's stat distribution is crucial for a Pokemon's success. Does the Pokemon have a stat distribution that supplements the Pokemon's movepool and typing? If a Pokemon has a stat distribution that favors its both typing and movepool it will often be higher on the tier list. In general, a Pokemon that is often slower than it is faster will often be ranked lower on a tier list.

Movepool - A Pokemon's movepool (both level-up and TM/HM) are crucial for a Pokemon. What moves does the Pokemon naturally get and can possibly obtain? Unfortunately this is the Gen before infinite TMs, thus opportunity cost comes into effect. With that being said, if a Pokemon requires a TM found in a detour off the main path this will knock it down in viability potentially.

Major Battles - Major battles consist of Gym Leaders, Team Rocket Admin and Executive encounters, Rival encounters, the Elite 4 and Lance. How does the Pokemon contribute to major battles? A Pokemon that contributes to many major battles will often be seen higher than those that do not.

Path Divergence - In GSC and HGSS, the games featured sequence breaking after defeating Morty. You could either go to Lake of Rage or go the way the game is intended which is to Olivine City. For the purpose of testing, Testers can go either way they want, however it is recommended testers head East first to pick up Choice Specs to help with their testing. Testers will NOT have to tell about their Ariana experience nor will this be used for Tiering Placement. In that specific battle you have a level 40 Dragonite helping you out. This would be unfair testing for the Pokemon you have selected.

Which Pokemon are available for the player to use in Pokemon Heartgold and Soulsilver?

The available Pokemon for the Player are the entire Johto Dex within reason. Pokemon that are Post Game are still available but come in too late to test efficiently.

What tools are allowed for the player to use?

The player is allowed to use any legitimate means within the cartridge for completing the game efficiently. The player is only allowed to trade to evolve Pokemon and not to receive outside help otherwise. The player is allowed to use items such as X Items, Potions, TMs, and Berries. Keep in mind that items have opportunity costs associated with them and can still contribute to a Pokemon negatively if it requires a multitude of items.

Tier List Key
This signifies what game a Pokemon can be caught in, and whether they need a trade to evolve.
HGSS: Both versions
HG: HeartGold Version only
SS: SoulSilver Version only
(Trade) - Pokemon is ranked based off of trading for its evolution.
(No Trade) - Pokemon is ranked based off of no trade accessible to the player (this does not include in-game trades).

These following Pokemon unless otherwise noted are version exclusive:

HeartGold (HG):
  • Mankey (Routes 9 and 42)
  • Primeape (Route 9 and Cerulean Cave)
  • Growlithe (Route 7, Route 8, Route 37, Route 36, Route 37, Route 48)
  • Spinarak (Route 2, Route 30, Route 31, Route 37, Routes 1, 2, 12, 13, 14, 15, 18, 21, 22, 26, 27, 29, 30, 31, 34, 35, 36, 37, 38, 39, 47 & 48, New Bark Town, Cherrygrove City National Park, Ecruteak City, Safari Zone Gate, Pallet Town, Viridian City, Viridian Forest, Fuchsia City (Headbutt)
  • Ariados (Route 2, Viridian Forest (Headbutt))
  • Gligar (Route 45)
  • Mantine (Route 41)
  • Phanpy (Route 45, Mt. Silver)
  • Sableye (Route 9)
  • Baltoy (Route 3)
  • Kyogre (Untiered)
SoulSilver (SS):
  • Vulpix (Route 7, Route 8, Route 37, Route 36, Route 37, Route 48),
  • Meowth (Route 5, Route 6, Route 7, Route 8, Route 38, Route 39),
  • Ledyba (Route 2, Route 30, Route 31, Route 37, Route 37, Routes 1, 2, 12, 13, 14, 15, 18, 21, 22, 26, 27, 29, 30, 31, 34, 35, 36, 37, 38, 39, 47 & 48, New Bark Town, Cherrygrove City National Park, Ecruteak City, Safari Zone Gate, Pallet Town, Viridian City, Viridian Forest, Fuchsia City (Headbutt),
  • Teddiursa (Route 45, Mt. Silver),
  • Delibird (Ice Path),
  • Skarmory (Route 45),
  • Mawile (Route 9),
  • Gulpin (Route 3),
  • Groudon (Untiered)
Current Tier List Rankings (based on the old thread)
Here is my opinion on what should be on the tiers so far (with descriptions taken from Its_A_Random's https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/pokémon-x-y-in-game-tier-list-discussion-mkii.3517128/ thread):

S tier: Reserved for Pokémon who possess the highest levels of efficiency of the available options in the Pokémon HeartGold and SoulSilver versions. Pokémon in this tier are able to OHKO or 2HKO an overwhelming majority of opponents, limiting the amount of attacks used against them, and possess minimal reliance on items to help assist them defeat opponents at like levels. These Pokémon typically show up before the late-game and any flaws they have are absolutely made up by their advantages.

Abra (Trade)
Red Gyarados

A-Tier: Reserved for Pokémon whose efficiency in terms of completing the game is considered to be very high. Pokémon in this tier are able to OHKO or 2HKO a lot of opponents and are not very reliant on items to succeed, but either have some visible flaws that hurt their efficiency or have their usefulness counterbalanced by a late arrival.

Cyndaquil
Geodude (Merge) (Consensus - 2 Weeks to decide)
Heracross
Ho-Oh
Lugia
Magikarp/Gyarados
Nidoran-F
Nidoran-M
Scyther (No Trade)
Totodile

B-Tier: Reserved for Pokémon whose efficiency in terms of completing the game is considered to be high. Pokémon in this tier are able to OHKO or 2HKO a fair chunk of opponents and may have a bit of item reliance to assist in sweeping opponents. These Pokémon are still very useful but either have several visible flaws holding them back or come fairly late.

Growlithe (Needs testing in regards of immediately evolving or staying off evo)
Magnemite
Pinsir
Rattata (Bumping to 2 tests now. Having some tier bouncing between B and A)
Sentret
Slowpoke
Staryu (Needs test)
Tauros

C-Tier: Reserved for Pokémon whose efficiency in terms of completing the game is considered to be moderately high. Pokémon in this tier are able to OHKO or 2HKO a reasonable portion of opponents but are matchup-based enough to need some item reliance to assist in sweeping some opponents. These Pokémon are useful but either have several visible flaws holding them back or barely make up for their late arrivals.

Caterpie
Chikorita
Hoothoot

D-Tier: Reserved for Pokémon whose efficiency in terms of completing the game is considered to be average. Pokémon in this tier are able to OHKO or 2HKO a small amount of opponents and tend to be matchup-based enough to need item reliance to assist in sweeping a few opponents. The usefulness of these Pokémon are typically counterbalanced by many visible flaws or are useful Pokémon that come very late.

Onix (No Trade)

E-Tier: Reserved for Pokémon whose efficiency in terms of completing the game is considered to be low. Pokémon in this tier are generally only able to OHKO or 2HKO specific opponents and suffer from being matchup-based, generally relying on items to assist in sweeping several opponents. These Pokémon either have flaws that outshine its strengths or are otherwise decent Pokémon that come too late to be of any major use.

Shuckle
Skarmory

F-Tier: Reserved for those that cannot surmont to much either by late arrival, gimmick, or inability to feasibly KO (if at all).

Ditto
Unown
Wobbuffet

Untiered: The following Pokemon are in the Kanto/Johto Pokedex but are not obtainable prior to beating the Pokemon League

Aerodactyl
Articuno
Bulbasaur
Celebi
Charmander
Chansey
Electabuzz
Houndour
Kabuto
Mew
Mewtwo
Moltres
Omanyte
Pikachu
Porygon
Snorlax
Suicune
Zapdos

As you can see, very incomplete. I did see a bunch of Noms tho and have taken those into consideration. However, they will not be placed as those were nommed around 2013-2017.

Discussion Slate:
This is where Pokemon being tested currently will be listed. You are free to suggest and talk about other noms not in the slate, but the ones in the slate will have a slight priority in consideration.

GC TMs are blacklisted. Please do not use them in your testing.

With all that said, let's get this underway!
 
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I'd quite like to participate in this to be honest, I've been itching to restart a Pokémon game for a while and needed a reason to run through one.

I'm also assuming that the reason Scyther isn't S-Tier is because he's a bugger to catch and then you're wanting a Technician one? Whenever I've used him on HG/SS the minute he gets Wing Attack (assuming Technician) he hits like an absolute truck on anything that doesn't resist.
 
I'd quite like to participate in this to be honest, I've been itching to restart a Pokémon game for a while and needed a reason to run through one.

I'm also assuming that the reason Scyther isn't S-Tier is because he's a bugger to catch and then you're wanting a Technician one? Whenever I've used him on HG/SS the minute he gets Wing Attack (assuming Technician) he hits like an absolute truck on anything that doesn't resist.
Correct. I feel S may be too high due to the fact he is A.) Only on Tuesday, Thursday, and Saturday with a fairly low encounter rate, B.) can actually beat you fairly fast, C.) a major pain to catch, and D.) you also have a 50% chance of getting Swarm.
 
I'll be participating in this at some point (lord knows I'll need a break from Burmy ). I didn't notice Mareep in the initial tier listing and I'm going to think A or B sounds good. Getting before Falkner lets you wreck him with Thundershock but you're waiting a looooooong time for an upgrade unless you pick up Thunder in Goldenrod.
 
I noticed Abra was missing from the list and I think there's a fair case for it being B.

It's cheap to buy from the Game Corner and while it's not the game-breaker it was in GSC once it evolves it can put in a huge amount of work with Confusion (Kadabra, of course, gets Psybeam at level 24) and is very effective against Morty and Chuck, as well as the numerous Poison-types used by Team Rocket. It struggles a little against Jasmine and is pretty unremarkable against Pryce and Clair but cleans up the first three members of the Elite Four.

Both abilities have their merits but IMO Synchronize is usually much better for an in-game run as Abra is fast enough that few things can flinch it outside of Fake Out, which is uncommon.

It doesn't have a great amount of options with TMs but Shadow Ball comes not long after you get it which pairs well with Psychic moves - with those it can cover most of the game. Otherwise it's left with Hidden Power (unreliable) and Charge Beam (tedious to obtain).

The main drawback is that it needs a lot of babying to make it as good as it can be and if you want full coverage you'll be forced to soft reset to get a decent Hidden Power type, or spend ages playing the Dept Store lottery on a specific day. And of course, it needs to be traded to fully evolve, but this isn't as crucial as it is for some other Pokemon as Kadabra is one of the more decent unevolved Pokemon.
 

Its_A_Random

A distant memory
is a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnus
You say that GSC is different to HGSS as your main justification for finishing with Lance instead of Red. What is the reasoning for not counting Kanto performance although you are still unlocking things? The main idea of an ingame tier list is to beat things efficiently enough to get to the things you need, though in that case Blue is an ideal stopping point since everything else is unlocked after him. I suppose you could argue that it creates a bunch of unnecessary work to accommodate for Kanto (and most things do pretty well in Kanto anyway) and we haven't been doing postgame arcs in other games (on top of Kanto being non-linear), but Kanto could still be seen as a second half of the game. I'd like to see a compelling reason for only doing Johto for this tier list.

Also forcing people to do Rocket Hideout after the fourth gym is very arbitrary and defeats the purpose of the non-linear mid-game. If you need Sludge Bomb, you'll head that way. If some see the benefit to beating Chuck and the lighthouse before doing the hideout (Fly, Strength), then let them. I get that homogeneity between test routes can be helpful for comparisons, but the reality is that the route one takes through the midgame will ultimately depend on your team makeup and what you will benefit from doing the most. Why needlessly lock some Pokémon out of one thing and some get another for the sake of homogeneity? Furthermore, this means creating very unnecessary detours that frankly are not needed (For example, having to go all the way to Cianwood to pick up the free Shuckle and then having to go all the way back to Lake of Rage for the sake of homogeneity when it's much easier and more efficient to just... do west-side Johto first).
 
You say that GSC is different to HGSS as your main justification for finishing with Lance instead of Red. What is the reasoning for not counting Kanto performance although you are still unlocking things? The main idea of an ingame tier list is to beat things efficiently enough to get to the things you need, though in that case Blue is an ideal stopping point since everything else is unlocked after him. I suppose you could argue that it creates a bunch of unnecessary work to accommodate for Kanto (and most things do pretty well in Kanto anyway) and we haven't been doing postgame arcs in other games (on top of Kanto being non-linear), but Kanto could still be seen as a second half of the game. I'd like to see a compelling reason for only doing Johto for this tier list.

Also forcing people to do Rocket Hideout after the fourth gym is very arbitrary and defeats the purpose of the non-linear mid-game. If you need Sludge Bomb, you'll head that way. If some see the benefit to beating Chuck and the lighthouse before doing the hideout (Fly, Strength), then let them. I get that homogeneity between test routes can be helpful for comparisons, but the reality is that the route one takes through the midgame will ultimately depend on your team makeup and what you will benefit from doing the most. Why needlessly lock some Pokémon out of one thing and some get another for the sake of homogeneity? Furthermore, this means creating very unnecessary detours that frankly are not needed (For example, having to go all the way to Cianwood to pick up the free Shuckle and then having to go all the way back to Lake of Rage for the sake of homogeneity when it's much easier and more efficient to just... do west-side Johto first).
Allow me to correct the GSC vs HGSS here. That is not my justification. I may have worded it wrong, but this is to mainly increase the speed we finish these tests.

Because Kanto is absolutely horrid to even test as you stated. You wanna go an fight stuff 10+ levels over you, you can. But the test still officially ends at Lance. I had thought about stopping at Blue but then I realized there was no point. Most of the Kanto mons you would want to test are either gonna be so low leveled to the point that it would be a near impossibility to test them (as XP is the most valuable resource in HGSS) or you you spend hours getting them to the same level as your team (which it going to be around mid 40s). Yes, the Safari Zone exists. I scoured that list and it fixes some of the issues that GSC had. Example being Houndour or Murkrow, but they still come fairly late and they also require you to pass both Zone tests (which the timing eludes me on when the second test happens). The only thing that would benefit from doing Kanto is Snorlax. If there is enough want to do Kanto, I will edit the OP to have testers go to Blue. There's just really nothing there though.

As for your Shuckle example, it and Krabby are the only ones that get significantly knocked down by it, and Shuckle is gimmick at best so it's not likely gonna make a difference. Pokemon obtained by Good Rood, obtainable at Olivine City, shouldn't be too much affected, because you have Bicycle at that time and the trainers up to Olivine are all skippable without much difficulty, if you want to use things like Staryu at the Hideout.

There is no benefit to beating Chuck. Sure, you can make the argument on Fly, but it's really not needed in terms of using it to get from place to place. Not to mention it's locked past Chuck so it's usefulness in the Major Fight it would be great against is null. Strength is not in Olivine. It is on the way to Mahogany. HGSS moved it as in GSC it was located in the Cafe by a Sailor making it missable and you were forced to go on a manhunt for it.

The Rocket Hidout has mostly levels around the 17-24 range. At this time, you are BARELY matching Morty's levels and your next fight is Chuck at 30. From various tests, you aren't gonna reach 30 with just the route trainers alone, maybe one member. But the EXP obtained from Rocket Hideout is more valuable as its obtained at the earliest convenience. I've updated the clause in the OP to reflect this.
 

Ryota Mitarai

Shrektimus Prime
is a Smogon Media Contributor
I noticed Abra was missing from the list and I think there's a fair case for it being B.

It's cheap to buy from the Game Corner and while it's not the game-breaker it was in GSC once it evolves it can put in a huge amount of work with Confusion (Kadabra, of course, gets Psybeam at level 24) and is very effective against Morty and Chuck, as well as the numerous Poison-types used by Team Rocket. It struggles a little against Jasmine and is pretty unremarkable against Pryce and Clair but cleans up the first three members of the Elite Four.

Both abilities have their merits but IMO Synchronize is usually much better for an in-game run as Abra is fast enough that few things can flinch it outside of Fake Out, which is uncommon.

It doesn't have a great amount of options with TMs but Shadow Ball comes not long after you get it which pairs well with Psychic moves - with those it can cover most of the game. Otherwise it's left with Hidden Power (unreliable) and Charge Beam (tedious to obtain).

The main drawback is that it needs a lot of babying to make it as good as it can be and if you want full coverage you'll be forced to soft reset to get a decent Hidden Power type, or spend ages playing the Dept Store lottery on a specific day. And of course, it needs to be traded to fully evolve, but this isn't as crucial as it is for some other Pokemon as Kadabra is one of the more decent unevolved Pokemon.
I disagree with Abra to B. There are some things I want to comment on from your post, so I will go one by one:

It's cheap to buy from the Game Corner and while it's not the game-breaker it was in GSC once it evolves it can put in a huge amount of work with Confusion (Kadabra, of course, gets Psybeam at level 24) and is very effective against Morty and Chuck, as well as the numerous Poison-types used by Team Rocket. It struggles a little against Jasmine and is pretty unremarkable against Pryce and Clair but cleans up the first three members of the Elite Four.
So, first of all, Zam also gets Focus Blast through Goldenrod TMs, that's an important thing, given it allows Zam to muscle through whatever can check it, most notably Jasmine. I also want to allude to the fact it learns CM by level up and that allows it to do well against some of the later major fights. As I stated above, Jasmine can be covered by Focus Blast, which should nuke anything it hits in her team. For Pryce, you can easily equip it with Choice Specs from Lake of Rage (all you have to do is Surf up and you get it on the small mainland area. Not even a hidden item) and muscle through the Seel line with Specs Psybeam. Alternatively, Specs Blast should one shot Dewgong and Piloswine. Against Clair, it only struggles against Gyarados; it can set up CM on Dragonairs and pretty much OHKO or 2HKO everything just with TwistedSpoon Psybeam (obtained by Tuscana of Tuesday at the first route). If you are at level 40, you can also nuke them with Psychic. The only thing is that you have to heal off the paralysis they cause with Thunder Wave, but Clair is notoriously hard, so I think this is pretty acceptable (when I used it, +2 Psybeam could OHKO Dragonair and 2HKO Kingdra. You likely can just go with one CM if you have Psychic).

I want to mention that Focus Blast also nukes Whitney's Miltank, assuming it hits.

It doesn't have a great amount of options with TMs but Shadow Ball comes not long after you get it which pairs well with Psychic moves - with those it can cover most of the game. Otherwise it's left with Hidden Power (unreliable) and Charge Beam (tedious to obtain).
Putting the Focus Blast thesis I put above aside, Hidden Power and Charge Beam are very unnecessary moves for Zam. Charge Beam could help, but when I used it, I never felt like I needed boosts before I got Calm Mind. So I think there's no issue with its movepool.

The main drawback is that it needs a lot of babying to make it as good as it can be and if you want full coverage you'll be forced to soft reset to get a decent Hidden Power type, or spend ages playing the Dept Store lottery on a specific day. And of course, it needs to be traded to fully evolve, but this isn't as crucial as it is for some other Pokemon as Kadabra is one of the more decent unevolved Pokemon.
1) It does not need babying at all. The GC Abra is obtained at level 15. You can either just grind it one level, which is not a problem, because Abra levels up very fast, or just use the Rare Candy from Ruins of Alph. In both cases, you aren't wasting a lot of time on "babying" Abra.

2) Read above for CBeam and HP

3) Trading really shouldn't be a reason to drop Zam to a lower tier, let alone this low. Most tier lists (including this one, seeing as Onix (No Trade) is tiered) will have an entry for if you trade the Pokemon and one for if you don't trade it if you can't. So if the reader does not have access to trade, they can just read the entry about Abra (No Trade). But yeah, this list is very likely gonna tier Abra with a trade version and with a no trade version, so it really should not be used against it.

In my opinion, Abra (Trade) should be S-tier. If you didn't get how good it was from the above, I will put it below, as a write-up, to make it easier to consume:

Availability: Early-game (Goldenrod Game Corner, bought for 200 coins, level 15)
Typing: Bar Will, Jasmine, and Karen's Dark-types, Psychic hits every major fight for at least neutral damage, with Morty, Chuck, Bruno, and Koga being hit super effectively.
Stats: Alakazam has a high Special Attack and Speed. Although it fears physical attacks, Alakazam is very likely to outspeed and OHKO most physical attackers before they can damage it.
Movepool: Gets Confusion as Kadabra at level 16, which upgrades to Psybeam at level 24 and later Psychic at level 40. Calm Mind at level 36 helps its sweeping capabilities and ability to take on special attacks. Focus Blast through TMs is essential to get past Jasmine and Shadow Ball helps against Will, but is otherwise unneeded.
Major Battles: Alakazam does well against Morty, Chuck, Koga, Bruno, and Karen's Poison-types, thanks to its super effective Psychic STAB. Jasmine, Pryce's Ice-types, Will, and Karen's Dark-types can be hit by its coverage moves. Thanks to Calm Mind, Alakazam can beat Clair's Dragonair and Kingdra with some healing support and easens up the Elite Four matchups Lance is the only matchup, where Alakazam is truly bad.
Additional Comments: Alakazam is one of the best Pokemon to use, as it levels up very fast and its combination of typing, movepool, and stats allow it to do well against majority of the major fights. Choice Specs from Lake of Rage can help against some matchups, most notably Pryce.
 
I disagree with Abra to B. There are some things I want to comment on from your post, so I will go one by one:



So, first of all, Zam also gets Focus Blast through Goldenrod TMs, that's an important thing, given it allows Zam to muscle through whatever can check it, most notably Jasmine. I also want to allude to the fact it learns CM by level up and that allows it to do well against some of the later major fights. As I stated above, Jasmine can be covered by Focus Blast, which should nuke anything it hits in her team. For Pryce, you can easily equip it with Choice Specs from Lake of Rage (all you have to do is Surf up and you get it on the small mainland area. Not even a hidden item) and muscle through the Seel line with Specs Psybeam. Alternatively, Specs Blast should one shot Dewgong and Piloswine. Against Clair, it only struggles against Gyarados; it can set up CM on Dragonairs and pretty much OHKO or 2HKO everything just with TwistedSpoon Psybeam (obtained by Tuscana of Tuesday at the first route). If you are at level 40, you can also nuke them with Psychic. The only thing is that you have to heal off the paralysis they cause with Thunder Wave, but Clair is notoriously hard, so I think this is pretty acceptable (when I used it, +2 Psybeam could OHKO Dragonair and 2HKO Kingdra. You likely can just go with one CM if you have Psychic).

I want to mention that Focus Blast also nukes Whitney's Miltank, assuming it hits.
This is fair. I was mostly looking at Kadabra's moveset (it gets Role Play instead of Calm Mind) as I was writing my post with the presumption of it not being evolved, so completely overlooked Focus Blast (and forgot that it's buyable in this game).
 
I also hard disagree on stopping the test before blue. Sure, the mons in kanto r very inefficient but just send the things to the bottom tiers then. Maybe things that stomp kanto hard can go to e, some that can't to F. Technically, the game ends after red yes? Then, basically only things after red is truly post game. Everything before it must be tiered. Yes, you are correct, they come in too late to test efficiently but it doesn't give them any excuse to not get tiered. If they're not efficient, like i said before, simply doom it to the bottom tiers like the gsc tier list.

I also disagree on forcing testers to go to the rocket hideout first, it just doesn't make sense. If i'm trying to use chikorita as a starter, i'll definitely go to the sea route first and get it at a high level so that i can comfortably tackle the poison infeseted rocket headout. Bayleef wouldn't totally suck in the hideout but why wouldn't i just pick the easier route here?

And for fly, yo its fast travel, its of course valuable. Fly can easily let you pick up things like lapras and mystic water. Feel free to go to the rocket hideout first, but fly's convenience easily wins over the experience boost for me when the mooks rn't that troublesome anyway.
 
I'll likely be going through Goldenrod today because I'm trying to get Charge Beam for Mareep. So far I've got Cyndaquil, Spearow and Mareep. Falkner testing, each at level 11:</p><p></p><p>Mareep: Hot knife, butter, etc. Tried at level 10 and didn't have the oomph to get through Pidgeotto, but level 11 does. Bonus points: Mild nature, so higher Special Attack. Plus, getting it up to snuff is easy since you can take repeated Vine Whips and Bellsprouts give good experience in Sprout Tower.

Cyndaquil: I'm unlucky enough to have Jolly, meaning I actually have a higher Attack than Special Attack, but it's fine so far. Can beat Pidgey and dent Pidgeotto through it would take some overleveling to be able to take out both. Plus Ember's proven alright so far. Mareep cleaned up on my test with Cyndaquil. We'll see how Bugsy goes.

Spearow: Somewhat disappointing so far. Took three hits to KO Pidgey and did only a tiny bit of damage before Pidgeotto knocked it out. Hoping for better results against Bugsy.

Team Rocket in Slowpoke Well I just had Spearow rip through them to get to level 15. Honestly both Flaaffy and Quilava (both evolved at this point) could beat the Admin relatively easily because all he has is Zubat and Koffing.

Even for three Pokes with advantages against some aspect of his team, Bugsy stinks. Flaaffy at least paralyzed and did some damage while Quilava did some damage as well, but none of my team could beat him solo at level 16. Spearow does the worst because Peck doesn't do a ton of damage and Scyther destroys her; I'm guessing Aerial Ace would at least hurt more but not defeat. Pretty much everyone needs support because Scyther can rip through a team no matter what. I'll do a last update after I fight the rival, then that'll be it for today.

LAST ONE! Quilava can beat Croconaw if he takes advantage of Smokescreen to make it miss and then Leer to power up Quick Attack. Flaaffy can beat Gastly and dent Croconaw but lost out due to Curse and Scary Face. Spearow can beat Zubat and Gastly but loses to Croconaw.
 
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Ryota Mitarai

Shrektimus Prime
is a Smogon Media Contributor
My stance on the two matters:

A) I believe it's more optimal to just stop at Lance than going all the way to just test Kanto.

B) I believe going east after beating Morty is more optimal

Why I believe both:

A) As for stopping at Lance, Kanto is a literal mess when it comes to tiering. You can fight every Gym Leader, bar Blue, in whatever order you want and it wouldn't be a new thing for someone to skew their tests in such way to benefit their favorite Pokemon or whatever they are aiming to achieve. Sure, the OP could weed out bad tests, but why waste everyone's time with faulty tests? You could theoritically enforce an order for Gym Leaders, but so far, the only people that have said "tier Kanto" also said "no order", so this causes new problems in itself.

Also, tiering Kanto just so we can have the Kanto exclusive Pokemon tiered isn't a good idea. Snorlax is the only Kanto exclusive Pokemon that wouldn't be tiered above F / E rank and, even then, you have to hold on fighting some nearby Gym Leaders if you wanna get it as soon as possible and use it for as many Gym Leaders as possible.

Technically, the game ends after red yes?
Technically, you get the credits rolling as soon as you beat Lance. And credits are pretty much a sign that you have beaten the game. So yeah, the game ends after beating Lance. And, traditionally, tier lists don't really count post-game either. I don't think Kanto is a good enough enviroment that would warrant to be tested, considering what I said above.

Tiering Red is also not a good idea. Red is like at the 80s wheres you will be at the 60s at best when you reach him and absolutely nothing is claiming more than one or two kills against it.

B) As for why I do not mind going east, it's because of few things:

1) Other than Sludge Bomb, going east also means you get Choice Specs much earlier and this helps significally any special attacker. And before you say "bruh, Specs is not really accessible" or something like this, all you have to do is, in the Lake of Rage, Surf north till you land on a small mainland area, where it's not even a hidden item. Specs on its own gives much more utility than Fly would, leading me to my second point

2) Fly's utility is overblown in this case. You will have Bicycle and repels at this point, so it shouldn't really be hard to navigate Johto as a whole. The trainers up to Olivine can also be skipped, as Turdterra mentioned, so if you want to use something something that is obtained through Good Rod, nothing stops you, it won't take you too much. Not facing Chuck with level 27 Pokemon and having Choice Specs is simply much more valuable than Fly, which not only you don't need to efficiently navigate Johto at this point, but also loses its battle value, as you get it after Chuck, where it would be useful. Also:

And for fly, yo its fast travel, its of course valuable. Fly can easily let you pick up things like lapras and mystic water. Feel free to go to the rocket hideout first, but fly's convenience easily wins over the experience boost for me when the mooks rn't that troublesome anyway.
This example makes no sense. If I wanted to obtain Lapras, I'd just go to Union Cave directly. It's faster to just go directly than going all the way to Cianwood, beating Chuck with underleveled Pokemon then... Flying to Azalea? Yeah, just going through Violet City is much faster. Also, why would I use MysticWater, when most Surf users are special and thus they benefit more from the Choice Specs I mentioned above? And since it's more useful, then I'd just go east, as I mentioned above. So I fail to get exactly what this example is trying to achieve.

3) Already mentioned, but Exp. is super valuable resource here, so having more of it is always nice. As I said, you will be having stuff under level 30 against Chuck if you go west directly. Sure, if you go east, you reduce Krabby and Shuckle's viability, but the latter is terrible anyways and I'd rather Krabby "suffers" for the rest than everything "suffer" for Krabby, because the former has less collateral damage.

E: Major thing I realized, Krabby is actually obtainable at Olivine. So only mon that gets hampered before Safari Zone is Shuckle
 
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A) As for stopping at Lance, Kanto is a literal mess when it comes to tiering. You can fight every Gym Leader, bar Blue, in whatever order you want and it wouldn't be a new thing for someone to skew their tests in such way to benefit their favorite Pokemon or whatever they are aiming to achieve. Sure, the OP could weed out bad tests, but why waste everyone's time with faulty tests? You could theoritically enforce an order for Gym Leaders, but so far, the only people that have said "tier Kanto" also said "no order", so this causes new problems in itself.

Also, tiering Kanto just so we can have the Kanto exclusive Pokemon tiered isn't a good idea. Snorlax is the only Kanto exclusive Pokemon that wouldn't be tiered above F / E rank and, even then, you have to hold on fighting some nearby Gym Leaders if you wanna get it as soon as possible and use it for as many Gym Leaders as possible.
I guess where the post game ends is highly subjective so i'm not going to comment on this matter a lot but if red / blue is considered post game, then everything has to be ranked. I don't see why this tier list has to be an exception when every tier list does this including the old gsc tier list. Its technically late game pokemon in this case, of course they'll be in efficient to test. It'll be wasting tester's times sure, thats unfortunate but it becomes a fact that these pokemon aren't post game. Considering you guys are good to sacrifice shuckle, it seems fine to me to just send the kanto mons to e / f tier without testing.

This example makes no sense. If I wanted to obtain Lapras, I'd just go to Union Cave directly. It's faster to just go directly than going all the way to Cianwood, beating Chuck with underleveled Pokemon then... Flying to Azalea? Yeah, just going through Violet City is much faster. Also, why would I use MysticWater, when most Surf users are special and thus they benefit more from the Choice Specs
I agree. I simply dislike trekking back to routes when there's but i guess thats the more efficient option here? Although mystic water is useful for your totodile lol. Exceptions r always going to exist and thats yr starter of all things

Sure, if you go east, you reduce Krabby and Shuckle's viability, but the latter is terrible anyways and I'd rather Krabby "suffers" for the rest than everything "suffer" for Krabby, because the former has less collateral damage
Umm, nobody needs to suffer, go to the route you want first.

So basically from what i can tell, this tier list is trying to follow a linear order for all testers to get similar reflections? Well, i won't comment much in this case but do note that hgss's supposed to be non linear unlike any game. According to your team, you can pick the route you want. Also going to olivine means cianwood is right there, its def not inefficient for someone to not go all the way back to the rocket hideout and come back. Better exp tackling chuck is better sure but chuck is not so hard that all teams find a need to be forced to go to the rocket hideout.
Now if you're going to say repels n bicycle make this obsolete, ok i guess but in that case, you must state that backtracking must not be accounted for any pokemon in the tier list.


Also i didn't give a kanto order because its supposed to be non linear. Just do the way thats done in the gsc tier list: you pick the gyms most favorable for the kanto mon and do them first, the most efficient option for using this mon.

E:I rly like the effort to make a hgss ingame tier list guys, its just that the list is so devoted to efficiency n testing, even more so than the other tier lists that its kinda jarring for casual folk like to me to give an opinion
 
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Ryota Mitarai

Shrektimus Prime
is a Smogon Media Contributor
I guess where the post game ends is highly subjective
Agreed, I don't think there's a "correct" option, rather, there's a "more optimal" option, and limiting the testing to Johto, where the testing conditions are more or less stable, is more optimal.

So basically from what i can tell, this tier list is trying to follow a linear order for all testers to get similar reflections? Well, i won't comment much in this case but do note that hgss's supposed to be non linear unlike any game. According to your team, you can pick the route you want. Also going to olivine means cianwood is right there, its def not inefficient for someone to not go all the way back to the rocket hideout and come back. Better exp tackling chuck is better sure but chuck is not so hard that all teams find a need to be forced to go to the rocket hideout.
I think the policy is more of "beat west and east before fighting Chuck". I don't mind someone doing west first, then east, but before Chuck, in all honesty, if that means they are getting the extra Exp. which is useful for Chuck. I have found going east first slightly more optimal, but going west then east before fighting Chuck isn't impossible, if you want to grind up a Grass-type (an Electric-type shouldn't have many problems at Rocket HQ).

E:

Now if you're going to say repels n bicycle make this obsolete, ok i guess but in that case, you must state that backtracking must not be accounted for any pokemon in the tier list.
I also do not mind this. I think a slight backtrack is generally not an issue anywhere, only super big ones.
 
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I'll likely be going through Goldenrod today because I'm trying to get Charge Beam for Mareep. So far I've got Cyndaquil, Spearow and Mareep. Falkner testing, each at level 11:</p><p></p><p>Mareep: Hot knife, butter, etc. Tried at level 10 and didn't have the oomph to get through Pidgeotto, but level 11 does. Bonus points: Mild nature, so higher Special Attack. Plus, getting it up to snuff is easy since you can take repeated Vine Whips and Bellsprouts give good experience in Sprout Tower.

Cyndaquil: I'm unlucky enough to have Jolly, meaning I actually have a higher Attack than Special Attack, but it's fine so far. Can beat Pidgey and dent Pidgeotto through it would take some overleveling to be able to take out both. Plus Ember's proven alright so far. Mareep cleaned up on my test with Cyndaquil. We'll see how Bugsy goes.

Spearow: Somewhat disappointing so far. Took three hits to KO Pidgey and did only a tiny bit of damage before Pidgeotto knocked it out. Hoping for better results against Bugsy.

Team Rocket in Slowpoke Well I just had Spearow rip through them to get to level 15. Honestly both Flaaffy and Quilava (both evolved at this point) could beat the Admin relatively easily because all he has is Zubat and Koffing.

Even for three Pokes with advantages against some aspect of his team, Bugsy stinks. Flaaffy at least paralyzed and did some damage while Quilava did some damage as well, but none of my team could beat him solo at level 16. Spearow does the worst because Peck doesn't do a ton of damage and Scyther destroys her; I'm guessing Aerial Ace would at least hurt more but not defeat. Pretty much everyone needs support because Scyther can rip through a team no matter what. I'll do a last update after I fight the rival, then that'll be it for today.

LAST ONE! Quilava can beat Croconaw if he takes advantage of Smokescreen to make it miss and then Leer to power up Quick Attack. Flaaffy can beat Gastly and dent Croconaw but lost out due to Curse and Scary Face. Spearow can beat Zubat and Gastly but loses to Croconaw.
Lookin Good! (Stealth Gen 2 pun there).

Using Spearow early on is interesting as Kenya exists. Kenya gets trade XP and comes in at level 20, basically skipping any training you would need, thus most skip early Spearow and go get that.

If we do some quick math here: Peck is 40 Base. Stab is 40/2 = 20. 40 + 20 is 60. Aerial Ace is already at 60 without STAB applied. So yea, use Aerial Ace over Peck any day. It still would not defeat Scyther but would dent more, you are correct on that.

For sure, Bugsy is very difficult if your name is not Geodude or Onix and even then, U-Turn is gonna chuck their HP.

Looking forward to more!

Discussion Slate: Mareep
 

Its_A_Random

A distant memory
is a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnus
Here's an idea. If going east after Morty is far more optimal than going west, then why even force homogeneity between tests in routing?

This is what makes no sense to me. I do not have a problem with going east after Morty or going west for a couple of things before the Hideout. What I do take issue with is telling us that there is only one "optimal" route and anything else is not. Never mind that the experience from the Lighthouse and Chuck could turn a lot of two-shots or damage ranges on the hideout grunts into one shots and potentially being more efficient in the long run (depending on the team), or the increased power from Fly over Wing Attack et al on some of the birds helping them one shot some stuff that would otherwise get two shot with a weaker move.

You cannot assume in a non-linear section of the game that one size will fit all, because there will be circumstances where doing something as "inefficient" as fighting Chuck underlevelled might end up working out better in the long run. By telling testers what their route should be, you are making an already arbitrary and specific tier list more arbitrary and specific than it needs to be. Even if clearing out the hideout is far more "optimal", then what is even the point of imposing such a restriction? So you won't be overlevelled for random Rocket Grunts that you would have no issues with anyway? To tell people who can solo Chuck or Jasmine with Pokémon X underlevelled that their experiences don't count because they did not take the right route?
 
Here's an idea. If going east after Morty is far more optimal than going west, then why even force homogeneity between tests in routing?

This is what makes no sense to me. I do not have a problem with going east after Morty or going west for a couple of things before the Hideout. What I do take issue with is telling us that there is only one "optimal" route and anything else is not. Never mind that the experience from the Lighthouse and Chuck could turn a lot of two-shots or damage ranges on the hideout grunts into one shots and potentially being more efficient in the long run (depending on the team), or the increased power from Fly over Wing Attack et al on some of the birds helping them one shot some stuff that would otherwise get two shot with a weaker move.

You cannot assume in a non-linear section of the game that one size will fit all, because there will be circumstances where doing something as "inefficient" as fighting Chuck underlevelled might end up working out better in the long run. By telling testers what their route should be, you are making an already arbitrary and specific tier list more arbitrary and specific than it needs to be. Even if clearing out the hideout is far more "optimal", then what is even the point of imposing such a restriction? So you won't be overlevelled for random Rocket Grunts that you would have no issues with anyway? To tell people who can solo Chuck or Jasmine with Pokémon X underlevelled that their experiences don't count because they did not take the right route?
Gonna take these one at a time here.

Here's an idea. If going east after Morty is far more optimal than going west, then why even force homogeneity between tests in routing?
Because most people may not even head that way when it provides roughly 6 boons for you? Getting Specs that early helps a lot of special attackers and getting it after 6 badges if they do West first hurts these Pokemon a bit as they could have done more if you had gone East first.

This is what makes no sense to me. I do not have a problem with going east after Morty or going west for a couple of things before the Hideout. What I do take issue with is telling us that there is only one "optimal" route and anything else is not. Never mind that the experience from the Lighthouse and Chuck could turn a lot of two-shots or damage ranges on the hideout grunts into one shots and potentially being more efficient in the long run (depending on the team), or the increased power from Fly over Wing Attack et al on some of the birds helping them one shot some stuff that would otherwise get two shot with a weaker move.
You seem to have an issue going East though? You do keep bringing it up. Grunts are 17-19, Scientists are 22, and Petrel is 22-24, which you are past that for Morty, or SHOULD be past that level except for maybe Petrel. I fail to see how you are not 2HKOing Zubats. Fly has more power than Wing Attack, that is true. However, Wing Attack accomplishes the same as Fly. Both take two turns to KO something.

Saving yourself 10 seconds so you can one shot a Zubat or any of the other Grunt Pokemon that are not threatening you anyways doesn't mean that's the more optimal route, when going east first has more optimal benefits."

You cannot assume in a non-linear section of the game that one size will fit all, because there will be circumstances where doing something as "inefficient" as fighting Chuck underlevelled might end up working out better in the long run. By telling testers what their route should be, you are making an already arbitrary and specific tier list more arbitrary and specific than it needs to be. Even if clearing out the hideout is far more "optimal", then what is even the point of imposing such a restriction? So you won't be overlevelled for random Rocket Grunts that you would have no issues with anyway? To tell people who can solo Chuck or Jasmine with Pokémon X underlevelled that their experiences don't count because they did not take the right route?
What? Fighting Chuck underleveled is better than doing it with mons closing the 5 level gap from Morty is more efficient? When said guy who has a Primeape who can outspeed you, who has a Poliwrath that can put you to sleep for free damage? Levels also give Speed and Defenses. You seem to be focused on the damage perspective here.

Arbitrary, or at least the definition of it, means " based on chance rather than being planned or based on reason:" (per Cambridge Dictionary)" So the list is random and isn't based on any grounds of reason? Ryota was an initial tester for this list and he agreed with me on this Path Clause, as did others.

I have already established that Grunts are not an issue, it's the XP that just sits there which has more use on a lower leveled mon who has yet to take on level 30s. Also you even stated in this very post, "Doing Never mind that the experience from the Lighthouse and Chuck could turn a lot of two-shots or damage ranges on the hideout grunts into one shots and potentially being more efficient in the long run (depending on the team)." Why even mention the above part now? You already stated that mons will have issues with levels 17 to 24.

Where on earth in this post did I say I would null their experiences if they did Chuck or Jasmine underlevelled? Please go find that exact line. No vagueness, no reaching. I want exact words. I'm asking because this is misinformation.
 
Gonna take these one at a time here.



Because most people may not even head that way when it provides roughly 6 boons for you? Getting Specs that early helps a lot of special attackers and getting it after 6 badges if they do West first hurts these Pokemon a bit as they could have done more if you had gone East first.



You seem to have an issue going East though? You do keep bringing it up. Grunts are 17-19, Scientists are 22, and Petrel is 22-24, which you are past that for Morty, or SHOULD be past that level except for maybe Petrel. I fail to see how you are not 2HKOing Zubats. Fly has more power than Wing Attack, that is true. However, Wing Attack accomplishes the same as Fly. Both take two turns to KO something.

Saving yourself 10 seconds so you can one shot a Zubat or any of the other Grunt Pokemon that are not threatening you anyways doesn't mean that's the more optimal route, when going east first has more optimal benefits."



What? Fighting Chuck underleveled is better than doing it with mons closing the 5 level gap from Morty is more efficient? When said guy who has a Primeape who can outspeed you, who has a Poliwrath that can put you to sleep for free damage? Levels also give Speed and Defenses. You seem to be focused on the damage perspective here.

Arbitrary, or at least the definition of it, means " based on chance rather than being planned or based on reason:" (per Cambridge Dictionary)" So the list is random and isn't based on any grounds of reason? Ryota was an initial tester for this list and he agreed with me on this Path Clause, as did others.

I have already established that Grunts are not an issue, it's the XP that just sits there which has more use on a lower leveled mon who has yet to take on level 30s. Also you even stated in this very post, "Doing Never mind that the experience from the Lighthouse and Chuck could turn a lot of two-shots or damage ranges on the hideout grunts into one shots and potentially being more efficient in the long run (depending on the team)." Why even mention the above part now? You already stated that mons will have issues with levels 17 to 24.

Where on earth in this post did I say I would null their experiences if they did Chuck or Jasmine underlevelled? Please go find that exact line. No vagueness, no reaching. I want exact words. I'm asking because this is misinformation.
Hey man, thanks for taking on the task of managing this tier list.

I don't think arguing is a great way to start this project. Speaking from personal experience, I've never taken the route you suggest when playing through this game (which I've done loads of times) which means that I'm unable to contribute to this project by your metrics, as I haven't played in the route that this tier list exclusively represents. Based on conversations with others over the years, going west straight out of Ecruteak is the more common route that people take because that's the order of the badges. You're perhaps right that it's sub-optimal, but if a standard or common playthrough is also sub-optimal then that's what this tier list should aim to represent. These resources are intended for casual players as opposed to speedrunners, and optimality is pretty unimportant to that userbase.

Restricting the route that can be taken has the following effects:
  • Reduces the number of people who can contribute to this list without playing through the game again with the advised route, slowing progress.
  • Reduces the number of people who can make use of the tier list reliably, as they may not take the required route.
  • Makes the tier list overall less informative. An underrated use of these tier lists is to give players a quick run-down on the best ways to use particular Pokémon, expressed in the write-ups. There are cases where going west first is better for certain Pokémon, and it's integral to be able to explain this in the write-ups even if it wouldn't affect the placement of said Pokémon on the tier list since it's a small part of the game.
My preference is also to include Kanto and Red for the same reasons. It basically makes the tier list half as useful as it could be, since it's only in reference to half of the game. Precluding the possibility of the tier list being used to build a team strong enough to take out Red at a low level is a shame to me, as Red is one of the iconic highlights of HGSS and is a primary motivation for people to go back and play those games. Excluding Kanto is less egregious than forcing Johto to be linear as it would require more work to implement into the tier list, though, so it's valid to exclude it if that's your preference.

Tiering in general is a descriptive task, not a prescriptive one. Making this tier list prescriptive limits its use to readers, and I think also limits the motivation to contribute to the project, since you're asking people to change their own playthroughs to your standards as opposed to recounting their own experiences and starting necessary discussion.

You're the project leader so it's ultimately up to you, but I count myself in the group who would be unmotivated for the project if you force people to switch up how their own brain works in order to mindmeld with how yours does. And the anomalously low activity in this thread for a new in-game tier list speaks to the fact that I'm not alone, probably.

Good luck with the project!
 

DHR-107

Robot from the Future
is a Community Leaderis a Community Contributoris a Live Chat Contributoris a Pokemon Researcheris a Smogon Media Contributor
Orange Islands
There is an easy compromise here that I can see:

A) We're not doing Kanto. Red isn't iconic. It's a stupid fight that no one ever has time for. I'm pretty sure on my completed HG run which has all 16 badges I never bothered with Red cause sod grinding for 10-15 (hell 20) levels to be even remotely on par with him. Kanto is kind of a mess in HGSS and GSC. You can fight it in almost any order and like others have said Snorlax is really the only Pokemon that's even usable. We can simply add all the Kanto mons to a box that says "good luck" or something. We have a tonne of options for the article.

B)

I don't think arguing is a great way to start this project. Speaking from personal experience, I've never taken the route you suggest when playing through this game (which I've done loads of times) which means that I'm unable to contribute to this project by your metrics, as I haven't played in the route that this tier list exclusively represents. Based on conversations with others over the years, going west straight out of Ecruteak is the more common route that people take because that's the order of the badges. You're perhaps right that it's sub-optimal, but if a standard or common playthrough is also sub-optimal then that's what this tier list should aim to represent. These resources are intended for casual players as opposed to speedrunners, and optimality is pretty unimportant to that userbase.
However, I do strongly agree with the above point. I think the best compromise here is that we heavily highlight the fact that Choice Specs and Sludge Bomb are available immediately after facing Morty. Either way, we are going to end up with discrepancies between runners and discussions over a few Pokemon might be a touch more fractious. I can't imagine there being a huge difference overall going either direction first (Fly is actually worse than Wing Attack over 2 turns in terms of damage, but I will admit invulnerability for a turn is useful), but I do agree there maybe a benefit to at least grabbing those two items earlier.

Morty -> Lake of Rage -> Hideout -> Lighthouse -> Chuck -> Jasmine -> Pryce

Doesn't seem that different to

Morty -> Lighthouse -> Chuck -> Jasmine -> Lake of Rage -> Hideout -> Pryce

Overall we're talking the span of 8-10 levels for your team. This isn't a hugely long section of the game in any direction if people have a few repels/bicycle etc. I am assuming we go Pryce last here too because hes going to be really tough on the first visit to Mahogany town (both Dewgong and especially Piloswine can throw out some damage). Lighthouse has 9 trainers between Lv 15-22 and Hideout (Rocket HQ) has minimum 15 trainers [including the double battle with Lance as backup and excluding repeated fights from the Alarm Guards] between 16 and 24.

Either way, you're starting this section at about 20-22 and ending it hopefully near (or over) 30. I can absolutely understand that people will want to run different directions at this point in the game after Morty. I don't agree with forcing people to take a particular route as the list is for informational purposes/more casual players (who might go either way). Highlighting specific Pokemon who get the most (as in ones that get bumped up a tier for using them for example) out of those two Items (Specs/Bomb) is probably the best way to go here.

None of us mind a debate in these lists, that's half the reason they exist. Between the however many of us run these games, we should be able to come up with something and I think the above is the best way of putting it for now.
 

Its_A_Random

A distant memory
is a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnus
Because most people may not even head that way when it provides roughly 6 boons for you? Getting Specs that early helps a lot of special attackers and getting it after 6 badges if they do West first hurts these Pokemon a bit as they could have done more if you had gone East first.
You did not answer the question I presented in what you quote. What I asked is:

"If going east after Morty is far more optimal than going west, then why even force homogeneity between tests in routing?"

Yes, the Choice Specs exists, but that and other things you mention do not justify why you are insistent on stopping people from going down one route first because you perceive it to be inefficient, especially since nothing is stopping me from grabbing Specs and whatnot and then heading west.

You seem to have an issue going East though? You do keep bringing it up. Grunts are 17-19, Scientists are 22, and Petrel is 22-24, which you are past that for Morty, or SHOULD be past that level except for maybe Petrel. I fail to see how you are not 2HKOing Zubats. Fly has more power than Wing Attack, that is true. However, Wing Attack accomplishes the same as Fly. Both take two turns to KO something.

Saving yourself 10 seconds so you can one shot a Zubat or any of the other Grunt Pokemon that are not threatening you anyways doesn't mean that's the more optimal route, when going east first has more optimal benefits."
You did not read the part you quoted properly.

"This is what makes no sense to me. I do not have a problem with going east after Morty or going west for a couple of things before the Hideout. What I do take issue with is telling us that there is only one "optimal" route and anything else is not."

And this is what your rule and your justification implies. In fact, I have indeed in the past done Rocket Hideout early. It is a perfectly acceptable way to go. However by the same margin, heading west first, which I have also done, is just as valid a route to take. At the same time, picking up Sludge Bomb and the Choice Specs and then going west is also a perfectly valid route to take. It all depends on what you have.

The difference between Fly and Wing Attack is if I can one shot with Fly or two shot with Wing Attack, I would rather use Fly because it means I don't give the opponent the opportunity to get a free hit on me with varying consequences.

What? Fighting Chuck underleveled is better than doing it with mons closing the 5 level gap from Morty is more efficient? When said guy who has a Primeape who can outspeed you, who has a Poliwrath that can put you to sleep for free damage? Levels also give Speed and Defenses. You seem to be focused on the damage perspective here.
Or I have the Pokémon on my team that can comfortably take on Chuck in a west before hideout route, or am using little enough Pokémon that I can get by with just Lighthouse exp and a couple of optionals.

Arbitrary, or at least the definition of it, means " based on chance rather than being planned or based on reason:" (per Cambridge Dictionary)" So the list is random and isn't based on any grounds of reason? Ryota was an initial tester for this list and he agreed with me on this Path Clause, as did others.
Arbitrary.png

A personal whim is indeed, arbitrary. Even your very source if you scroll down the page to the US definition says "based on a desire or idea or chance rather than reason". Which also fits in line with the Google definition.

I don't consider "valuable source of experience" to be a non-arbitrary reason as "valuable" is a very subjective term. Optional trainers can also be a "valuable source of experience", but we avoid most of them because we don't need to fight them. We fight the Rocket Hideout because we need to do so to progress the plot unless you are glitch abusing but let's not go there. It just so happens that there is a fair amount of experience available due to trainer count. What makes this "valuable" enough that you want to make people do one thing before the other?

Furthermore, I don't care if others agree with this rule. It is a pointless, arbitrary rule that creates inflexibility in tiering which goes contrary to the non-linear midgame. If I want to go and take down Chuck and/or Jasmine before I decide to deal with the hideout, I should be able to, and so should anyone else who wants to help out be able to.

I have already established that Grunts are not an issue, it's the XP that just sits there which has more use on a lower leveled mon who has yet to take on level 30s. Also you even stated in this very post, "Doing Never mind that the experience from the Lighthouse and Chuck could turn a lot of two-shots or damage ranges on the hideout grunts into one shots and potentially being more efficient in the long run (depending on the team)." Why even mention the above part now? You already stated that mons will have issues with levels 17 to 24.
Because taking things out in one hit instead of two means you use less PP which means less opportunities for enemies to damage you which means less using items to heal or backtracking to Pokémon Centres or auto-heal spots. Being able to clear random trainers is indeed important for efficiency, not just from a time perspective.

Where on earth in this post did I say I would null their experiences if they did Chuck or Jasmine underlevelled? Please go find that exact line. No vagueness, no reaching. I want exact words. I'm asking because this is misinformation.
Here are your exact words:
OP said:
For the purpose of testing, Testers will need to clear out the Rocket Hideout prior to beating Chuck.
The very rule which I am contesting implicitly states (as per "will need") that you require testers (or contributors) to do one thing before the other. It is not unreasonable to infer other things from it, like what you perceiving to be "misinformation". If this was not your intent, then perhaps something like "should", or "It is recommended that" would have been a much better word to use. But even then, I have a problem with restricting what path one should take.

Now do you see why I take issue with this rule?
 
Long story short: who cares? Emphasize that one route offers significant specific advantages, take it into consideration when evaluating the runs of people who may take deviating paths, but let people run what they want in the way that they want.

Forcing homogeneity only serves to remove some of the fun from some of the testers in what is, at its core, supposed to be a bit of fun.
 

Jerry the great

Banned deucer.
Delibird for F tier

There is a good, no, multiple good reasons this thing has been on F tier for pretty much every tier list. And I say it's no different of a case here for HGSS!

Movepool: Uhh... By level up, it gets only present. Sure it gets moves like ice beam by TM, but the rest of it's moves aren't that notable. But even with ice beam, that gets utterly nuked by the next thing:

Stats: My god! These are the stats that you can compare to starter Pokemon that haven't evolved! It has a BST of 330! Oh? And those stats are? 45 HP, 55 attack, 45 defense and special defense, 65 Special attack and 75 speed! Are we sure it's a fully evolved Pokemon?!

Avilability: And guess what? Unlike the starter Pokemon, not only does it not evolve into something much stronger, you also get it very late in the game at ice path! You know when you can get such a location? I dunno, after the SEVENTH GYM. You're much, much better off using the other pokemon in ice cave than this!

Typing: Ice/Flying. Combined with horrible bulk and power... Yeah. Likely one of the last dual typings you'd want. Several weaknesses in electric, fire, steel, a 4X weakness to rock, and knowing how bad this dual type is I just might be forgetting a weakness!

Major Battles: You're kidding right? You think that knowing it's horrible stats, very late game availability, terrible typing, and bad moves to choose from besides like ice beam but even then the stats are godawful, that it'll do any good against the major battles? No. It won't. Don't even think about using it for those. Heck, don't even think about using it for regular trainers even!

Overall, I can say I consider this thing to have the viability of wobuffet, or possibly even ditto. This thing is the literal incarnation of weak. I think everyone can agree on this. Now, maybe you just forgot how bad it is. And that's fine. As a tier list maker, you have so many Pokemon to work with. But I can safely say, to F is where it belongs! Just like on every other tier list!
 
You did not answer the question I presented in what you quote. What I asked is:

"If going east after Morty is far more optimal than going west, then why even force homogeneity between tests in routing?"

Yes, the Choice Specs exists, but that and other things you mention do not justify why you are insistent on stopping people from going down one route first because you perceive it to be inefficient, especially since nothing is stopping me from grabbing Specs and whatnot and then heading west.


You did not read the part you quoted properly.

"This is what makes no sense to me. I do not have a problem with going east after Morty or going west for a couple of things before the Hideout. What I do take issue with is telling us that there is only one "optimal" route and anything else is not."

And this is what your rule and your justification implies. In fact, I have indeed in the past done Rocket Hideout early. It is a perfectly acceptable way to go. However by the same margin, heading west first, which I have also done, is just as valid a route to take. At the same time, picking up Sludge Bomb and the Choice Specs and then going west is also a perfectly valid route to take. It all depends on what you have.

The difference between Fly and Wing Attack is if I can one shot with Fly or two shot with Wing Attack, I would rather use Fly because it means I don't give the opponent the opportunity to get a free hit on me with varying consequences.


Or I have the Pokémon on my team that can comfortably take on Chuck in a west before hideout route, or am using little enough Pokémon that I can get by with just Lighthouse exp and a couple of optionals.


View attachment 252144
A personal whim is indeed, arbitrary. Even your very source if you scroll down the page to the US definition says "based on a desire or idea or chance rather than reason". Which also fits in line with the Google definition.

I don't consider "valuable source of experience" to be a non-arbitrary reason as "valuable" is a very subjective term. Optional trainers can also be a "valuable source of experience", but we avoid most of them because we don't need to fight them. We fight the Rocket Hideout because we need to do so to progress the plot unless you are glitch abusing but let's not go there. It just so happens that there is a fair amount of experience available due to trainer count. What makes this "valuable" enough that you want to make people do one thing before the other?

Furthermore, I don't care if others agree with this rule. It is a pointless, arbitrary rule that creates inflexibility in tiering which goes contrary to the non-linear midgame. If I want to go and take down Chuck and/or Jasmine before I decide to deal with the hideout, I should be able to, and so should anyone else who wants to help out be able to.


Because taking things out in one hit instead of two means you use less PP which means less opportunities for enemies to damage you which means less using items to heal or backtracking to Pokémon Centres or auto-heal spots. Being able to clear random trainers is indeed important for efficiency, not just from a time perspective.


Here are your exact words:

The very rule which I am contesting implicitly states (as per "will need") that you require testers (or contributors) to do one thing before the other. It is not unreasonable to infer other things from it, like what you perceiving to be "misinformation". If this was not your intent, then perhaps something like "should", or "It is recommended that" would have been a much better word to use. But even then, I have a problem with restricting what path one should take.

Now do you see why I take issue with this rule?
Was not my intent to null their experience what so ever.

Regardless, I’ve updated the Clause accordingly. I’m moving on from the East vs West Argument now. It’s run it’s course and we need to move on.

Delibird for F tier

There is a good, no, multiple good reasons this thing has been on F tier for pretty much every tier list. And I say it's no different of a case here for HGSS!

Movepool: Uhh... By level up, it gets only present. Sure it gets moves like ice beam by TM, but the rest of it's moves aren't that notable. But even with ice beam, that gets utterly nuked by the next thing:

Stats: My god! These are the stats that you can compare to starter Pokemon that haven't evolved! It has a BST of 330! Oh? And those stats are? 45 HP, 55 attack, 45 defense and special defense, 65 Special attack and 75 speed! Are we sure it's a fully evolved Pokemon?!

Avilability: And guess what? Unlike the starter Pokemon, not only does it not evolve into something much stronger, you also get it very late in the game at ice path! You know when you can get such a location? I dunno, after the SEVENTH GYM. You're much, much better off using the other pokemon in ice cave than this!

Typing: Ice/Flying. Combined with horrible bulk and power... Yeah. Likely one of the last dual typings you'd want. Several weaknesses in electric, fire, steel, a 4X weakness to rock, and knowing how bad this dual type is I just might be forgetting a weakness!

Major Battles: You're kidding right? You think that knowing it's horrible stats, very late game availability, terrible typing, and bad moves to choose from besides like ice beam but even then the stats are godawful, that it'll do any good against the major battles? No. It won't. Don't even think about using it for those. Heck, don't even think about using it for regular trainers even!

Overall, I can say I consider this thing to have the viability of wobuffet, or possibly even ditto. This thing is the literal incarnation of weak. I think everyone can agree on this. Now, maybe you just forgot how bad it is. And that's fine. As a tier list maker, you have so many Pokemon to work with. But I can safely say, to F is where it belongs! Just like on every other tier list!
Hahaha, I enjoyed reading that. Yeah, I think no one will bat an eye with Delibird in F. The list is so barebones because I pulled everything over from the old list and wanted others here to voice their opinions. Dile and Quil are in S right now, but I have no issue dropping them to A.

Discussion Slate: Mareep
 
Last edited:

Ryota Mitarai

Shrektimus Prime
is a Smogon Media Contributor
re: starters, drop them to A. Totodile and Cyndaquil aren't really that broken to be S tiers.

Totodile consistently struggles with each Gym Leader's ace before Jasmine, thus it fails to sweep most major fights. I know that you don't have to sweep to be necessarily good, but when you are unable to sweep majority of the Gym Leaders, that's a pretty good indicator you are not an S-tier. Its E4 matchup isn't the most spectacular either, being meh against Bruno if my memory isn't lying to me (I even have saved very short logs of my matchups against the major trainers, so what I am saying should be more or less accurate memory-wise). It beats Karen's Houndoom, at least, which is a notably dangerous Pokemon, but I don't remember it doing much else at the Elite Four.

Cyndaquil, in terms of raw power, is much better than Totodile, but its hindered by its overreliance on the inaccurate Fire Blast. However, Charcoal Fire Blast hits stupid hard, even being able to OHKO Whitney's Miltank. Choice Specs also significally amplifies its power. The problem is that Fire Blast is what you want to use till level 35, as your strongest special move is otherwise Ember. Flame Wheel won't really get you far, as you want to abuse the higher Special Attack. So, because it relies on Fire Blast a lot, I think A rank is more appropriate for Cyndaquil. It's worth mentioning that Fire Blast is also low on PP, so missing here is a little bit more fatal than it would be.
 

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