Pokemon Heartgold and Soulsilver In-Game Tier List (MkII)

Bayleef030 · Oct 3, 2020

Ryota Mitarai said:
whooping triple post, but I am done with my run

Ariados(36): Specs Sludge Bomb 3HKOs Dragonair, who outspeeds and 3HKOs you with Dragon Pulse. Terrible matchup.

Xatu(36): bad. Specs Shadow Ball 3HKOs Dragonair, which paralyzes you. You are not really doing much. Dragon Pulse is a 2HKO on rolls

Misdreavus(37): OHKOs Gyara with Thunder, but takes heavy damage from Bite. Dragonair is 2HKOed by Specs Shadow Ball, while it 3HKOs with Dragon Pulse. You are taking out one threat at most from her team without healing.

Wigglytuff(37): Specs Thunder OHKOs Gyarados. Specs Blizzard OHKOs Dragonair on rolls and Wigglytuff is 3HKOed by Dragon Pulse.

Ariados(40): Sludge Bomb 3HKOs Sneasel, but it damages you a lot till you beat it. Kadabra is OHKOed by Sucker Punch, but if it sets up Reflec,t you are in trouble. Meganium can be muscled through, as always. Magneton is faster and paralyzes you, but Dig OHKOs.

Xatu(39): Specs Shadow Ball OHKOs Haunter and Kadabra, with the former being outsped. Keep in mind the latter can Disable it. Meganium can be muscled through, but it may take some time.

Misdreavus(40): Specs Shadow Ball 2HKOs Golbat and OHKOs Haunter and Kadabra, with Haunter being outsped. In a 1v1 scenario, Misdreavus and Meganium 3HKO each other.

Wigglytuff(39): It can try Rollout sweeping, which allows it to beat Sneasel and Golbat before Meganium takes it down. Magneton can be taken down if you kept Fire Blast. The rest are wildcards and generally not reliable (Kadabra disables Rollout, Haunter curses)

Ariados(42): terrible. All Psychics are OHKOs on rolls at worst and you are slower than everything bar Slowbro, which OHKOs anyways.

Xatu(42): Specs Shadow Ball OHKOs Xatu #1 and 2HKOs the rest. Jynx and Xatu #2 are faster. The former puts you to sleep and 2HKOs with Ice Punch. The latter 2HKOs with Ominous Wind and can also confuse you.

Misdreavus(42): Specs Shadow Ball OHKOs everything (with Slowbro being rolls). However, Jynx and Xatu #2 are faster and can cause problems with confusion or sleep.

Wigglytuff(42): it can hit hard anything it hits super effectively with Specs, but Wigglytuff, overall, is not really reliable here.

Ariados(42): struggles to take anything out at a reasonable speed. It will often fail to 3HKO things with Dig.

Xatu(42): only beats Ariados by 2HKOing it with Specs Shadow Ball. The rest are 3HKOed at worst and can cripple it or beat it significantly.

Misdreavus(43): Specs Psybeam 2HKOs Ariados and Venomoth, with Crobat and Muk being 3HKOed. Evasion screws this thing over, though.

Wigglytuff(42): it can try Rollout sweeping, which can take out Ariados, Forry, and potentially Muk.

Ariados(42): As always, it fails to even 2HKO stuff, so it will be slow in taking down anything. Not to mention a lot of things hit it super effectively.

Xatu(42): takes a lot of time to take out any of the Fighting-types, which can hit it hard, potentially, and Onix can hit it with Rock Slide while living a Specs Shadow Ball.

Misdreavus(43): Specs Psybeam 2HKOs Hitmons and Onix. Lee poses problems due to Swagger. You may need to heal at least once to do that well.

Wigglytuff(42): bad here. It cannot really hit them hard and they can hit it hard, in return, if they pack a Fighting move. Onix can be OHKOed by Blizzard, I guess?

Ariados(42): doesn't really do much here, given it's slow and hits like a noodle. Even Umbreon isn't threatened by Pin Missile

Xatu(42): hahahahahahahaha

Misdreavus(43): beats Gengar and Vileplume

Wigglytuff(42): can take out Murkrow and Vileplume with super effective moves

nothing on my team did much to him that'd be worth logging

nominations:

Spinarak -> E
Comes early, but it's so weak and has terrible movepool. Its contributions are negligible and mostly limited to non-high priority targets. I feel like we all saw that one coming, but someone had to test it so *shrug*

Natu -> E
Requires a huge detour in order to be obtained. Even after that, it's underwhelming, as it has no good STAB moves and will often either be bad for matchups or take some time to actually beat anything. I feel like Natu is not something that is worth the backtrack whatsoever.

Misdreavus -> D
Misdreavus can clean routes well and also has some useful matchups, such as (somewhat) Chuck, Will, Bruno, and Petrel #2. I don't think it's super useful, but it's got enough niche to not be in bottom tier.

Jigglypuff -> Clefairy tier
Just lump them in the same tier. While Clefairy hits a bit harder and has Encore, Jigglypuff has a better availability and Rollout + DCurl is sick, sometimes.

next run team: Togepi / Dunsparce / Grimer / Ponyta

I actually used Togetic in my most recent run in SoulSilver, about a month ago. This was not a playthrough with the intention of rating it for the in-game tier list, and this is just what I remember by heart. So yeah, I think you should still use Togetic for your next run.

But anyways, my experience and opinion...

First of all, make sure you don't have a nature that lowers special attack!!!

Early-game, Extrasensory is a huge upgrade over Togepi in GSC. Just make sure Togepi won't die, and it should evolve around Goldenrod City. Happiness evolution is a pain though.

When it comes to offense, Togetic is really dependant on TM's. Its physical attack sucks. The only physical attack worth considering would be Fly, and that is purely because of its effects outside of battle. Togetic has a nice special attack stat, but requires TM's to have proper coverage alongside Extrasensory.

Luckily, Togetic can make great use of the TM's you can buy over and over and over in Goldenrod. Fire Blast is a strong move with nice coverage. Then, if you have the money to buy the Hyper Beam TM, you've got a very strong STAB attack that is very overpowered at this point of the game. Recharging sucks, but it's a great finisher against an opponent's final Pokemon. It's your only special STAB move, since its only other special STAB options are Air Cutter and Swift, which are both Battle Frontier move totur moves, and they're not even that strong...

This could be a moveset: Extrasensory, Hyper Beam, Fire Blast, filler (Fly).

Togetic has decent bulk, especially on the special side, so it has that going for it. Extrasensory is great against Team Rocket, and Fire Blast offers nice coverage, which means you don't need to spend the TM's you only get once on it.

Low Speed hurts. And it's outclassed as a special attacker and as a flying type by lots of Pokemon. However, it's definitely useable.

Once you get the Shiny Stone, which you can get in the Pokeathlon Dome or at the Bug-Catching Contest after obtaining the National Dex... Togekiss is not slow anymore and finally gets reliable STAB (Air Slash), making it an amazing Pokemon for the post-game.

Positives:
- Decent physical and very nice special bulk.
- Fine Special Attack stat, good Choice Specs user.
- Born with Extrasensory and only needs replenishable TM's (Fire Blast and Hyper Beam) to get coverage, which means you don't need to spend TM's you only get once.
- Togetic's STAB Hyper Beam will kill a lot of stuff in one hit. Great finisher during boss battles, against their final Pokemon.
- Fly.
- Fast experience gain, making it level up quickly.
- Very strong as a Togekiss.

Negatives:
- No STAB outside of Hyper Beam.
- Slow until it evolves into Togekiss.
- Happiness evolution can be a pain.
- Outclassed as a flying type by Fearow, outclassed as a special attacker by Typhlosion/Lapras/Vaporeon/Espeon.
- Can't evolve into Togekiss until Kanto.

Big battles? Well:
- Team Rocket's Poison types don't like Togetic's Extrasensory.
- Only good against Bugsy if evolved, which it probably won't be.
- Great finisher against Whitney's Miltank if you teach it Hyper Beam and if it's evolved into Togetic.
- Amazing against Morty. Ghost immunity, super effective Extrasensory...
- Can hurt Chuck's Pokemon, but is slower and prone to get hit. Use something else here.
- Against Jasmine, Togetic can damage Steelix with Fire Blast and take a non-STAB Rock Throw without too much trouble. Togetic can also take on Magnemite with Fire Blast if it's not outsped. This depends on your Togetic's nature, IV's and possibly EV's. Togetic does not enjoy Thunderbolt, so this matchup is dependant on Speed.
- Pryce? Don't do it. His Ice Pokemon will hurt too much.
- Clair... Don't use Togetic as your main sweeper, but STAB Hyper Beam is a great way to finish a somewhat damaged Kingdra.
- Will... Not particulary useful, aside from Fire Blast on Exeggutor.
- Koga... Extrasensory is nice, but a non-STAB move won't OHKO stuff. Togetic will be outsped and statused/damaged. Taking on Ariados and Forretress should be fine, and Venomoth or Muk should not be impossible either, but stay away from Crobat if you have better options.
- Bruno... Togetic will get outsped and hurt.
- Karen... Togetic can take out Vileplume (Fire Blast) and Gengar (Extrasensory), and hurt/kill her last Pokemon with Hyper Beam.
- Lance... Stay out of this fight, aside from a Hyper Beam to finish off his last Pokemon if that Pokemon is damaged.

Kanto... Once you've got Togekiss, its usefulness in boss battles will depend on your damaging moves. I would recommend a trip to the move relearner. Make sure you have a Heart Scale and teach it Air Slash. For the three other moves, your options are Aura Sphere (move relearner), Extrasensory (born with it), Fire Blast (TM), Hyper Beam (TM), or even Fly for HM utility. Psychic can be a slight improvement over Extrasensory and Shadow Ball can be nice as well.

Actually, Togetic/Togekiss has many more options if you are willing to spend TM's that you can't get an infinite amount of times, including Water Pulse (Serene Grace abuse) and Grass Knot.

Personally, I would put it in the C tier, mostly judging by its performance as Togetic in Johto. Definitely not useless and can do well in several big battles, but the low Speed and lack of proper STAB options hurts. If it would've gotten Air Slash as a Togetic, it would've been so much better... Anyways, Togetic is very good when it just evolved, and will stay useful in Johto. However, once you get to Blackthorn City and the League, you will notice that Togetic's usefulness slowly starts to fade. However, once you reach Kanto, the Shiny Stone can fixing that.

Togetic is outclassed, but that doesn't mean it's a bad Pokemon. Just because something else is stronger or bulkier doesn't make it weak.

I'd say... High D tier or low C tier as a Togetic in Johto, A-tier as a Togekiss in Kanto.

If you can trade over a Shiny Stone from DPP and are willing to spend it on an in-game Pokemon... Definite A-tier. However, not everyone has access to a second DS and/or another Gen 4 game with a Shiny Stone. Because of that, when writing this, I am assuming it's a Togetic until you get the Shiny Stone through Pokeathlon (post-National Dex) or on Route 14 in Kanto.

My personal verdict? C tier.

Ryota Mitarai · Oct 4, 2020

Thank god someone posted. I had logs for a while but didn't want to quadra post (or whatever the term would be)

Bayleef030 if you are interested, the Togetic logs are below and further below is my nomination, feel free to disagree / criticize / refute / etc.

e: just to make it clear, know that Kanto is not considered for the list. So I think its Kanto performance is irrelevant. And trading isn't considered either, unless it's to evolve Kadabra and friends

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ok so it turns out I read the levels wrong on Ponyta and it's available only post-game in Safari Zone. I have removed it from my post. Ponyta comes just before the VR, so I think that's an automatic E.

Also, I had posted earlier an unfinished version of this. I apologize for that, I hit the tab button and enter at the same time....

did my run with Dunsparce / Togepi / Grimer / Kangaskhan

I caught a 1% Dunsparce to see how it performs against Falkner

Dunsparce(12): spam Rage on Pidgeotto and you are likely winning, given you do not take much from its attacks. Avoid PIdgey due to Sand-Attack. Never needed to heal it.

Dunsparce(15): spam Rage and you will get past him, eventually. Confusion + Smokescreen + poisoning can be annoying, though.

Togepi(14): OHKOs and 2HKOs Zubat and Koffing, respectively, with Extransensory.

did this fight earlier cause I needed some Exp.

Dunsparce(17): DCurl on Gastly and click Rollout, even if it Curses, you take it out and you also outspeed Zubat and KO it. Bayleef will set up Reflect, making Rollout #3 a 3HKO and allowing Dunsparce to succumb to Curse. If it's a Quilava, you will KO it.

Togepi(16): Extrasensory OHKOs Gastly and 2HKOs Zubat. Bayleef takes nothing from it, though you can cripple it with Charm, Sweet Kiss, and Yawn.

Dunsparce(17): Glare Scyther, set up a Defense Curl and click Rollout, no matter what is the current target. Dunsparce will outspeed a paralyzed Scyther and easily crush this fight. Incredible.

Togepi(17): it doesn't do much to Scyther, as any debuffs it causes to it are shrugged off by a successful U-turn.

Dunsparce(19): you can try DCurl + Rollout here, especially if you have a female one. It will take you three Rollouts to take Clefairy out and two for Miltank, which can potentially flinch you (or use Attract if your Dunsparce is male). Alternatively, you can try paralyzing it with Glare (with Lum gone) and try Headbutt + Serene Grace flinching >:)))). But yeah, matchup is not super reliable and you need a female one to do well.

Togepi(19): (note, I didn't teach Return for now and not planning to due to Hustle). Togepi takes some time to take Clefairy out with Extrasensory. Against Miltank, you can cripple it with Charms if you do not get too many Stomp flinches and can also try to remove its Lum Berry with Yawn spam. But it won't be beating it.

Dunsparce(22): it has a hard time Rollout sweeping; Gastly Curses and confuses it, Magnemite paralyzes it and confuses it, and Zubat also confuses it. If you are lucky, you can steamroll, though. You could potentially try Glare + Headbutt on Bayleef, but Poisonpowder may put you on a timer.

Togepi(22): Extrasensory 2HKOs Zubat and Gastly, while Fire Blast OHKOs Magnemite and 3HKOs Bayleef. I am not sure why Togepi has not evolved

Dunsparce(25): it can take Gastly out if it doesn't Curse. The Haunter that comes in will Hypnosis it, ruining a Rollout sweep. Gengar can easily be defeated, as it cannot harm you at all. Level 23 will likely Curse you, but if you are healthy enough, you will make it through anyways.

Togepi(25): I really wonder why this has not evolved yet. Extrasensory takes Gastly out if it doesn't Curse. Level 21 Haunter is a wild card. Gengar is easy to take down, just lock it into Sucker Punch or Mean Look to make it even safer. Haunter #2 Curses, but it gets KOed by Extrasensory. Evolving might help here, but won't likely change the outcome too much.

Dunsparce(27): Headbutt 3HKOs Koffing and 2HKOs the rest. Glare at Raticate to make it easier to take out.

Togetic(27): Specs Extrasensory OHKOs Poison-types and 2HKOs Raticate. Not a terrible matchup

Grimer(27): Payback 2HKOs Zubat. Switch out against Koffing. Specs Sludge 3HKOs Raticate, which 3HKOs you itself, so you are losing, unless you are lucky.

Kangaskhan(28): Strength OHKOs Zubat and 2HKOs the rest. You can avoid Koffing due to Smokescreen.

Dunsparce(30): if lucky, it can land a Glare on his stuff and spam Headbutt. However, if they Focus Punch while you Glare, they will easily KO you. Unreliable matchup

Togetic(30): Specs Extrasensory OHKOs Primeape on rolls and 2HKOs (3HKO with berry) Poliwrath. In general, this matchup is not the most reliable, even with type advantage.

Grimer(30): Specs Sludge Bomb 2HKOs Primeape. However, it spams Double Team and 3HKOs with Rock Slide.

Kangaskhan(30): Strength 2HKOs Primeape and 3HKOs (4HKO with Berry) Poliwrath. Against Poliwrath, it's recommended to just spam Strength and hope for the best. Early Bird can help a lot.

Dunsparce(30): at most, you can Headbutt spamflinch her stuff, but not efficient.

Togetic(30): Specs Fire Blast OHKOs Magnemite and almost OHKOs Steelix. However, it's outsped Magnemite, making this matchup not super reliable, overall.

Grimer(30): Dig OHKOs Magnemite, but it's slower and 2HKOed by Thunderbolt.

Kangaskhan(30): Dig OHKOs Magnemite, but doesn't do much against Steelix, even if you were to Tail Whip it twice.

Dunsparce(31): 3HKOs Seel with Headbutt while outspeeding it. Against Piloswine and Dewgong, your best bet is Glaring and then Headbutting, though the former 2HKOs on rolls with Blizzard.

Togetic(31): terrible matchup. Specs Extrasensory 3HKOs Seel, while Specs Fire Blast fails to OHKO Piloswine.

Grimer(31): Specs Sludge Bomb fails to 2HKO Seel, unless there's Hail to finish it off. Lol

Kangaskhan(31): Strength 2HKOs Seel and manages to outspeed even at -1. Avoid Piloswine, as it requires tons of support to beat. Dewgong is 2HKOed by Strength after two Tail Whips. Feel free to Fake Out, if you need to. No healing required.

Dunsparce(33): Headbutt outspeeds and 3HKOs Koffing. You only can get by with flinches.

Togetic(31): outspeeds and OHKOs Koffing with Specs Extrasensory. Weezing outspeeds and is put in red, but if it never goes for Smokescreen, you are likely winning.

Grimer(33): Specs Sludge Bomb 2HKOs Koffing. However, you will get Smokescreened quite a lot.

Kangaskhan(32): Strength 2HKOs Koffing and 3HKOs Weezing. However, you get Smokescreened a lot.

Dunsparce(33): It can Glare + Headbutt Golbat. Meganium is also doable this way, but it takes lots of time. Haunter screws this heavily and Magnemite has to be muscled through. Sneasel can easily be run through with Rollout.

Togetic(33): Extrasensory OHKOs Haunter and 2HKOs Golbat. Fire Blast OHKOs Magnemite and 2HKOs the rest. You may need to heal if you take too much damge, but you will overall blow holes through his team.

Grimer(33): it can 1v1 Meganium and also OHKO Magnemite with Dig. Nothing else, though.

Kangaskhan(32): beats Golbat and Sneasel. Haunter Curses, so you can kill it with whatever. Magnemite dies only if you have Dig. Meganium takes a lot of time and can deal huge damage with Petal Dance.

Dunsparce(34): Rollout sweep is hard to pull off because of hax + Weezing taking at least two Rollouts. However, Glare + Headbutt can do wonders.

Togetic(35): Specs Extrasensory OHKOs both but they are faster and can hax it

Grimer(34): Payback 2HKOs Golbat, but you are slower and cannot get past Weezing.

Kangaskhan(34): Strength 2HKOs Golbat and 3HKOs Weezing. Unless very unlucky, you should sweep this.

Dunsparce(34): avoid Arbok. Against Murkrow, DCurl and Rollout. If no misses, you crush the rest.

Togetic(35): Specs Extrasensory OHKOs Arbok and puts Vileplume in red. Though it's slower than Arbok.

Grimer(34): Specs Sludge Bomb 2HKOs Murkrow and 3HKOs Vileplume. You may need to heal to beat them.

Kangaskhan(34): Avoid Arbok. Strength + Fake Out deal with Murkrow and Strength 3HKOs Vileplume.

Dunsparce(34): If it tries to Rollout sweep, it will beat Houndour and Koffing and Houndoom will finish it off. It can also 1v1 Houndoom with Glare + Headbutt.

Togetic(35): beats Koffing

Grimer(34): it can beat Houndour by 2HKOing it with Dig or Specs Sludge Bomb, but it cannot get past Houndoom and Koffing is annoying

Kangaskhan(35): Strength + Fake Out take care of Houndour, while Strength 3HKOs Houndoom, which almost 3HKOs. Best way to go here is 1v1 Houndoom with Fake Out and Strength, as Fake Out turns Strength into a 2HKO.

Dunsparce(37): it can 1v1 Gyara with healing and potentially an Intimidate sack. Kingdra always beats it. Dragonairs are a bit harder to take down due to Shed Skin, making it harder to pull off Headbutt spam. However, it can potentially 1v1 Kingdra with Glare and Headbutt flinches.

Togetic(37): it needs to heal just to beat one Dragonair, by 3HKOing it with Specs Extrasensory. Terrible matchup

Muk(38): 1v1s Gyarados with Specs Sludge Bomb and potentially some healing. It also 2HKOs Dragonair with Specs Sludge Bomb. You will likely need to heal once or twice to crush the three of them.

Kangaskhan(37): outspeeds and OHKOs Dragonair with Outrage. In addition, it can Fake Out and Outrage Kingdra once, dealing it heavy damage, though it 2HKOs with Hydro Pump.

Dunsparce(40): It can DCurl and Rollout on Sneasel, allowing it to take Sneasel and Golbat out. Switch out against Meganium. It can easily take care of Kadabra. Magneton will be annoying unless you teach it Earthquake or something. Haunter Curses at one point, since it cannot hurt you otherwise.

Togetic(40): Fire Blast OHKOs Sneasel and Magneton and 2HKOs Meganium. However, all of them are faster than it. Shadow Ball 2HKOs the Ghost-weak mons, with Haunter just Cursing you. Golbat is 2HKOed by Extrasensory. In general, you need to heal like at least twice to pull off a sweep here.

Muk(40): 1v1s Sneasel and Meganium easily. Payback OHKOs Haunter and 2HKOs Golbat, but the former can Curse oyu. Magneton is OHKOed by Dig.

Kangaskhan(40): Strength 2HKOs Sneasel and Golbat and can live their attacks well. Switch out and heal offscreen against Meganium. Crunch OHKOs Kadabra and Haunter if there's no Reflect. Magneton is OHKOed by EQ if there's no Reflect.

Dunsparce(42): it has a hard time here, because it's outsped and hit hard by Xatu and Jynx, making the matchup very bad unless you spam healing items offscreen.

Togetic(43): Specs Shadow Ball 2HKOs everything. However, it is outsped by everything bar Slowbro, which makes this matchup unreliable between sleep and confusion.

Muk(43): Payback OHKOs Jynx and Specs Sludge Bomb crushes Exeggutor. However, it is 2HKOed by virtually every Psychic move.

Kangaskhan(42): Crunch 2HKOs at best threats, like Xatu and Jynx. It 3HKOs Eggy. Slowbro stalemates you with Crunch.

Dunsparce(42): if lucky enough, it can DCurl and Rollout against Ariados. With no poisoning and missing, it will beat Ariados, Forry, and Muk. Hel against Venomoth, Glare it, and try again and, hopefully, you will win.

Togetic(43): Specs Fire Blast OHKOs all Bug-types.

Muk(43): Specs Fire Blast OHKOs Ariados and Forry and puts Venomoth in red. Venomoth 3HKOs with Psychic.

Kangaskhan(43): Return 2HKOs Ariados and Venomoth, while EQ 2HKOs Muk.

Dunsparce(43): Headbutt + Glare is the best way to do anything here. Spamming DCurl against Hitmontop also helps. As a whole, it will take a lot of time to do much against Bruno this way, but it's the most reliable one. Keep in mind Onix will take an awful amount of time.

Togetic(43): bad, despite Extrasensory. It 2HKOs everything with Specs Extrasensory, however, it's outsped by pretty much everything and is hit hard by them too. It can only live one attack at best.

Muk(43): bad matchup. Specs Sludge Bomb is a 3HKO at best and Muk is also rather slow, so it will be taking damage constantly.

Kangaskhan(43): Fake Out + Strength 3HKO Hitmontop, who deals heavy damage with Counter. If healed offscreen, it also beats Onix with Earthquake and Hitmonchan with Fake Out + Strength.

Dunsparce(43): it can make it past Murkrow, Houndoom, and Vileplume with Headbutt + Glare, but that is highly unreliable here.

Togetic(43): it can beat Vileplume and Gengar by 2HKOing them with Specs Extrasensory, though watch out for Destiny Bond.

Muk(43): 1v1s Murkrow with Specs Sludge Bomb and Vileplume with Specs Fire Blast.

Kangaskhan(43): Fake Out + Earthquake OHKO Houndoom. It also 1v1s Murkrow.

against Lance, Dunsparce can hilariously do something to Lance if you use an Intimidate sack, paralyze Gyara, spam DCurl and use two X Speeds. I am not gonna count that in its favor, but it's good to know, at least.

Nominations:

Dunsparce -> C
I think Dunsparce cannot be B or any of the higher tiers. While it can defeat Bugsy (and Falkner if you take it that early), more often than not, you are relying on Headbutt + Serene Grace to really win anything. I felt, as a whole, that Dunsparce was often at a disadvantage if it doesn't outspeed and flinch and even with that, the fight took some time. I am ok with C-tier, personally, because Headbutt + Serene Grace + Glare is actually very powerful, but I am ok with a lower tier, if we consider that too unreliable.

Togepi -> D, but open for arguments to C
Just to note, my Togepi evolved post-Morty, for whatever reasons. I was aiming to complete the game fast, so trying to evolve it earlier is def not something in its favor.

But anyways, to my main point, we all know Togepi has a terrible availability. Not only do you have to hatch it from an egg, but it comes at level 1. I had to train it at the Dark Cave so it doesn't suck out Exp. from Dunsparce and, even after I made it level 6, it did it anyways. As Bayleef030 mentioned, Togepi is really slow and that is not in its favor. It gets constantly haxed and its bulk isn't actually that great either, so Togetic struggles against more offensive threats. This leads to mostly poor matchups, where Togetic, at best, either takes out a specific member or is limited to crippling stuff with Charm, Encore, or Yawn. I personally believe D-tier is more appropriate for Togepi, given its use as a whole is rather niche, but I have left C-tier as a possibility if Togetic miraculously performs well against Whitney, Morty, and Silver at Burned Tower much better than a Togepi (and I feel like a Togetic isn't performing that differently from a Togepi in those instances. You are still slower than Haunter and Miltank, for example).

Note that I did not use Hyper Beam. My moveset was Fire Blast / Extrasensory / Charm / Encore, for most parts, with one of the support moves being dropped in favor of Shadow Ball for Will.

I also think a physical Togetic is a waste of time. My Togetic's Special Attack was consistently almost twice its Attack and Hustle for the whole game is not very pleasant either.

Grimer -> lower tier possible
Grimer is an awful Pokemon. It needs to be taught Dig and Payback to be functional, as Pound and Mud-Slap won't be able to get it to level 20 for Sludge. Even then, Grimer almost never does anything noteworthy. Even though Muk is slightly better, it does not perform well enough to warrant the usage of Grimrer. So, E-tier or F-tier, depending on if you wanna reserve F for gimmicks

Kangaskhan -> D
Hits hard as a whole, has bulk, not slow. Really, the only disadvantage is availability, but it's pretty good, otherwise. Cannot say much that is not in logs already.

As a whole, here are my nominations for every Safari Pokemon (lowest tier = E / F):

Cubone -> lowest tier

Smeargle -> F (I consisder this a gimmick, feel free to argue this)

Clefairy and Jigglypuff -> leaning towards D

Mr. Mime -> D

Murkrow -> lowest tier

Grimer -> lowest tier

Larvitar -> lowest tier

Doduo -> lowest tier

Kangaskhan -> D

Rhyhorn -> lowest tier

As for next run, I will probs take a break from HGSS. I was asked to help with RBY to move it forwards. I am available for discussion, nonethless, it's just the testing that I am gonna put a break on. Once I am back into it, I am planning on testing more of the untested Pokemon (even some of the more terrible stuff) and eventually start testing the post-Radio Tower Pokemon

Bayleef030 · Oct 4, 2020

Ryota Mitarai said:
Thank god someone posted. I had logs for a while but didn't want to quadra post (or whatever the term would be)

Bayleef030 if you are interested, the Togetic logs are below and further below is my nomination, feel free to disagree / criticize / refute / etc.

e: just to make it clear, know that Kanto is not considered for the list. So I think its Kanto performance is irrelevant. And trading isn't considered either, unless it's to evolve Kadabra and friends

======

ok so it turns out I read the levels wrong on Ponyta and it's available only post-game in Safari Zone. I have removed it from my post. Ponyta comes just before the VR, so I think that's an automatic E.

Also, I had posted earlier an unfinished version of this. I apologize for that, I hit the tab button and enter at the same time....

did my run with Dunsparce / Togepi / Grimer / Kangaskhan

I caught a 1% Dunsparce to see how it performs against Falkner

Dunsparce(12): spam Rage on Pidgeotto and you are likely winning, given you do not take much from its attacks. Avoid PIdgey due to Sand-Attack. Never needed to heal it.

Dunsparce(15): spam Rage and you will get past him, eventually. Confusion + Smokescreen + poisoning can be annoying, though.

Togepi(14): OHKOs and 2HKOs Zubat and Koffing, respectively, with Extransensory.

did this fight earlier cause I needed some Exp.

Dunsparce(17): DCurl on Gastly and click Rollout, even if it Curses, you take it out and you also outspeed Zubat and KO it. Bayleef will set up Reflect, making Rollout #3 a 3HKO and allowing Dunsparce to succumb to Curse. If it's a Quilava, you will KO it.

Togepi(16): Extrasensory OHKOs Gastly and 2HKOs Zubat. Bayleef takes nothing from it, though you can cripple it with Charm, Sweet Kiss, and Yawn.

Dunsparce(17): Glare Scyther, set up a Defense Curl and click Rollout, no matter what is the current target. Dunsparce will outspeed a paralyzed Scyther and easily crush this fight. Incredible.

Togepi(17): it doesn't do much to Scyther, as any debuffs it causes to it are shrugged off by a successful U-turn.

Dunsparce(19): you can try DCurl + Rollout here, especially if you have a female one. It will take you three Rollouts to take Clefairy out and two for Miltank, which can potentially flinch you (or use Attract if your Dunsparce is male). Alternatively, you can try paralyzing it with Glare (with Lum gone) and try Headbutt + Serene Grace flinching >:)))). But yeah, matchup is not super reliable and you need a female one to do well.

Togepi(19): (note, I didn't teach Return for now and not planning to due to Hustle). Togepi takes some time to take Clefairy out with Extrasensory. Against Miltank, you can cripple it with Charms if you do not get too many Stomp flinches and can also try to remove its Lum Berry with Yawn spam. But it won't be beating it.

Dunsparce(22): it has a hard time Rollout sweeping; Gastly Curses and confuses it, Magnemite paralyzes it and confuses it, and Zubat also confuses it. If you are lucky, you can steamroll, though. You could potentially try Glare + Headbutt on Bayleef, but Poisonpowder may put you on a timer.

Togepi(22): Extrasensory 2HKOs Zubat and Gastly, while Fire Blast OHKOs Magnemite and 3HKOs Bayleef. I am not sure why Togepi has not evolved

Dunsparce(25): it can take Gastly out if it doesn't Curse. The Haunter that comes in will Hypnosis it, ruining a Rollout sweep. Gengar can easily be defeated, as it cannot harm you at all. Level 23 will likely Curse you, but if you are healthy enough, you will make it through anyways.

Togepi(25): I really wonder why this has not evolved yet. Extrasensory takes Gastly out if it doesn't Curse. Level 21 Haunter is a wild card. Gengar is easy to take down, just lock it into Sucker Punch or Mean Look to make it even safer. Haunter #2 Curses, but it gets KOed by Extrasensory. Evolving might help here, but won't likely change the outcome too much.

Dunsparce(27): Headbutt 3HKOs Koffing and 2HKOs the rest. Glare at Raticate to make it easier to take out.

Togetic(27): Specs Extrasensory OHKOs Poison-types and 2HKOs Raticate. Not a terrible matchup

Grimer(27): Payback 2HKOs Zubat. Switch out against Koffing. Specs Sludge 3HKOs Raticate, which 3HKOs you itself, so you are losing, unless you are lucky.

Kangaskhan(28): Strength OHKOs Zubat and 2HKOs the rest. You can avoid Koffing due to Smokescreen.

Dunsparce(30): if lucky, it can land a Glare on his stuff and spam Headbutt. However, if they Focus Punch while you Glare, they will easily KO you. Unreliable matchup

Togetic(30): Specs Extrasensory OHKOs Primeape on rolls and 2HKOs (3HKO with berry) Poliwrath. In general, this matchup is not the most reliable, even with type advantage.

Grimer(30): Specs Sludge Bomb 2HKOs Primeape. However, it spams Double Team and 3HKOs with Rock Slide.

Kangaskhan(30): Strength 2HKOs Primeape and 3HKOs (4HKO with Berry) Poliwrath. Against Poliwrath, it's recommended to just spam Strength and hope for the best. Early Bird can help a lot.

Dunsparce(30): at most, you can Headbutt spamflinch her stuff, but not efficient.

Togetic(30): Specs Fire Blast OHKOs Magnemite and almost OHKOs Steelix. However, it's outsped Magnemite, making this matchup not super reliable, overall.

Grimer(30): Dig OHKOs Magnemite, but it's slower and 2HKOed by Thunderbolt.

Kangaskhan(30): Dig OHKOs Magnemite, but doesn't do much against Steelix, even if you were to Tail Whip it twice.

Dunsparce(31): 3HKOs Seel with Headbutt while outspeeding it. Against Piloswine and Dewgong, your best bet is Glaring and then Headbutting, though the former 2HKOs on rolls with Blizzard.

Togetic(31): terrible matchup. Specs Extrasensory 3HKOs Seel, while Specs Fire Blast fails to OHKO Piloswine.

Grimer(31): Specs Sludge Bomb fails to 2HKO Seel, unless there's Hail to finish it off. Lol

Kangaskhan(31): Strength 2HKOs Seel and manages to outspeed even at -1. Avoid Piloswine, as it requires tons of support to beat. Dewgong is 2HKOed by Strength after two Tail Whips. Feel free to Fake Out, if you need to. No healing required.

Dunsparce(33): Headbutt outspeeds and 3HKOs Koffing. You only can get by with flinches.

Togetic(31): outspeeds and OHKOs Koffing with Specs Extrasensory. Weezing outspeeds and is put in red, but if it never goes for Smokescreen, you are likely winning.

Grimer(33): Specs Sludge Bomb 2HKOs Koffing. However, you will get Smokescreened quite a lot.

Kangaskhan(32): Strength 2HKOs Koffing and 3HKOs Weezing. However, you get Smokescreened a lot.

Dunsparce(33): It can Glare + Headbutt Golbat. Meganium is also doable this way, but it takes lots of time. Haunter screws this heavily and Magnemite has to be muscled through. Sneasel can easily be run through with Rollout.

Togetic(33): Extrasensory OHKOs Haunter and 2HKOs Golbat. Fire Blast OHKOs Magnemite and 2HKOs the rest. You may need to heal if you take too much damge, but you will overall blow holes through his team.

Grimer(33): it can 1v1 Meganium and also OHKO Magnemite with Dig. Nothing else, though.

Kangaskhan(32): beats Golbat and Sneasel. Haunter Curses, so you can kill it with whatever. Magnemite dies only if you have Dig. Meganium takes a lot of time and can deal huge damage with Petal Dance.

Dunsparce(34): Rollout sweep is hard to pull off because of hax + Weezing taking at least two Rollouts. However, Glare + Headbutt can do wonders.

Togetic(35): Specs Extrasensory OHKOs both but they are faster and can hax it

Grimer(34): Payback 2HKOs Golbat, but you are slower and cannot get past Weezing.

Kangaskhan(34): Strength 2HKOs Golbat and 3HKOs Weezing. Unless very unlucky, you should sweep this.

Dunsparce(34): avoid Arbok. Against Murkrow, DCurl and Rollout. If no misses, you crush the rest.

Togetic(35): Specs Extrasensory OHKOs Arbok and puts Vileplume in red. Though it's slower than Arbok.

Grimer(34): Specs Sludge Bomb 2HKOs Murkrow and 3HKOs Vileplume. You may need to heal to beat them.

Kangaskhan(34): Avoid Arbok. Strength + Fake Out deal with Murkrow and Strength 3HKOs Vileplume.

Dunsparce(34): If it tries to Rollout sweep, it will beat Houndour and Koffing and Houndoom will finish it off. It can also 1v1 Houndoom with Glare + Headbutt.

Togetic(35): beats Koffing

Grimer(34): it can beat Houndour by 2HKOing it with Dig or Specs Sludge Bomb, but it cannot get past Houndoom and Koffing is annoying

Kangaskhan(35): Strength + Fake Out take care of Houndour, while Strength 3HKOs Houndoom, which almost 3HKOs. Best way to go here is 1v1 Houndoom with Fake Out and Strength, as Fake Out turns Strength into a 2HKO.

Dunsparce(37): it can 1v1 Gyara with healing and potentially an Intimidate sack. Kingdra always beats it. Dragonairs are a bit harder to take down due to Shed Skin, making it harder to pull off Headbutt spam. However, it can potentially 1v1 Kingdra with Glare and Headbutt flinches.

Togetic(37): it needs to heal just to beat one Dragonair, by 3HKOing it with Specs Extrasensory. Terrible matchup

Muk(38): 1v1s Gyarados with Specs Sludge Bomb and potentially some healing. It also 2HKOs Dragonair with Specs Sludge Bomb. You will likely need to heal once or twice to crush the three of them.

Kangaskhan(37): outspeeds and OHKOs Dragonair with Outrage. In addition, it can Fake Out and Outrage Kingdra once, dealing it heavy damage, though it 2HKOs with Hydro Pump.

Dunsparce(40): It can DCurl and Rollout on Sneasel, allowing it to take Sneasel and Golbat out. Switch out against Meganium. It can easily take care of Kadabra. Magneton will be annoying unless you teach it Earthquake or something. Haunter Curses at one point, since it cannot hurt you otherwise.

Togetic(40): Fire Blast OHKOs Sneasel and Magneton and 2HKOs Meganium. However, all of them are faster than it. Shadow Ball 2HKOs the Ghost-weak mons, with Haunter just Cursing you. Golbat is 2HKOed by Extrasensory. In general, you need to heal like at least twice to pull off a sweep here.

Muk(40): 1v1s Sneasel and Meganium easily. Payback OHKOs Haunter and 2HKOs Golbat, but the former can Curse oyu. Magneton is OHKOed by Dig.

Kangaskhan(40): Strength 2HKOs Sneasel and Golbat and can live their attacks well. Switch out and heal offscreen against Meganium. Crunch OHKOs Kadabra and Haunter if there's no Reflect. Magneton is OHKOed by EQ if there's no Reflect.

Dunsparce(42): it has a hard time here, because it's outsped and hit hard by Xatu and Jynx, making the matchup very bad unless you spam healing items offscreen.

Togetic(43): Specs Shadow Ball 2HKOs everything. However, it is outsped by everything bar Slowbro, which makes this matchup unreliable between sleep and confusion.

Muk(43): Payback OHKOs Jynx and Specs Sludge Bomb crushes Exeggutor. However, it is 2HKOed by virtually every Psychic move.

Kangaskhan(42): Crunch 2HKOs at best threats, like Xatu and Jynx. It 3HKOs Eggy. Slowbro stalemates you with Crunch.

Dunsparce(42): if lucky enough, it can DCurl and Rollout against Ariados. With no poisoning and missing, it will beat Ariados, Forry, and Muk. Hel against Venomoth, Glare it, and try again and, hopefully, you will win.

Togetic(43): Specs Fire Blast OHKOs all Bug-types.

Muk(43): Specs Fire Blast OHKOs Ariados and Forry and puts Venomoth in red. Venomoth 3HKOs with Psychic.

Kangaskhan(43): Return 2HKOs Ariados and Venomoth, while EQ 2HKOs Muk.

Dunsparce(43): Headbutt + Glare is the best way to do anything here. Spamming DCurl against Hitmontop also helps. As a whole, it will take a lot of time to do much against Bruno this way, but it's the most reliable one. Keep in mind Onix will take an awful amount of time.

Togetic(43): bad, despite Extrasensory. It 2HKOs everything with Specs Extrasensory, however, it's outsped by pretty much everything and is hit hard by them too. It can only live one attack at best.

Muk(43): bad matchup. Specs Sludge Bomb is a 3HKO at best and Muk is also rather slow, so it will be taking damage constantly.

Kangaskhan(43): Fake Out + Strength 3HKO Hitmontop, who deals heavy damage with Counter. If healed offscreen, it also beats Onix with Earthquake and Hitmonchan with Fake Out + Strength.

Dunsparce(43): it can make it past Murkrow, Houndoom, and Vileplume with Headbutt + Glare, but that is highly unreliable here.

Togetic(43): it can beat Vileplume and Gengar by 2HKOing them with Specs Extrasensory, though watch out for Destiny Bond.

Muk(43): 1v1s Murkrow with Specs Sludge Bomb and Vileplume with Specs Fire Blast.

Kangaskhan(43): Fake Out + Earthquake OHKO Houndoom. It also 1v1s Murkrow.

against Lance, Dunsparce can hilariously do something to Lance if you use an Intimidate sack, paralyze Gyara, spam DCurl and use two X Speeds. I am not gonna count that in its favor, but it's good to know, at least.

Nominations:

Dunsparce -> C
I think Dunsparce cannot be B or any of the higher tiers. While it can defeat Bugsy (and Falkner if you take it that early), more often than not, you are relying on Headbutt + Serene Grace to really win anything. I felt, as a whole, that Dunsparce was often at a disadvantage if it doesn't outspeed and flinch and even with that, the fight took some time. I am ok with C-tier, personally, because Headbutt + Serene Grace + Glare is actually very powerful, but I am ok with a lower tier, if we consider that too unreliable.

Togepi -> D, but open for arguments to C
Just to note, my Togepi evolved post-Morty, for whatever reasons. I was aiming to complete the game fast, so trying to evolve it earlier is def not something in its favor.

But anyways, to my main point, we all know Togepi has a terrible availability. Not only do you have to hatch it from an egg, but it comes at level 1. I had to train it at the Dark Cave so it doesn't suck out Exp. from Dunsparce and, even after I made it level 6, it did it anyways. As Bayleef030 mentioned, Togepi is really slow and that is not in its favor. It gets constantly haxed and its bulk isn't actually that great either, so Togetic struggles against more offensive threats. This leads to mostly poor matchups, where Togetic, at best, either takes out a specific member or is limited to crippling stuff with Charm, Encore, or Yawn. I personally believe D-tier is more appropriate for Togepi, given its use as a whole is rather niche, but I have left C-tier as a possibility if Togetic miraculously performs well against Whitney, Morty, and Silver at Burned Tower much better than a Togepi (and I feel like a Togetic isn't performing that differently from a Togepi in those instances. You are still slower than Haunter and Miltank, for example).

Note that I did not use Hyper Beam. My moveset was Fire Blast / Extrasensory / Charm / Encore, for most parts, with one of the support moves being dropped in favor of Shadow Ball for Will.

I also think a physical Togetic is a waste of time. My Togetic's Special Attack was consistently almost twice its Attack and Hustle for the whole game is not very pleasant either.

Grimer -> lower tier possible
Grimer is an awful Pokemon. It needs to be taught Dig and Payback to be functional, as Pound and Mud-Slap won't be able to get it to level 20 for Sludge. Even then, Grimer almost never does anything noteworthy. Even though Muk is slightly better, it does not perform well enough to warrant the usage of Grimrer. So, E-tier or F-tier, depending on if you wanna reserve F for gimmicks

Kangaskhan -> D
Hits hard as a whole, has bulk, not slow. Really, the only disadvantage is availability, but it's pretty good, otherwise. Cannot say much that is not in logs already.

As a whole, here are my nominations for every Safari Pokemon (lowest tier = E / F):

Cubone -> lowest tier

Smeargle -> F (I consisder this a gimmick, feel free to argue this)

Clefairy and Jigglypuff -> leaning towards D

Mr. Mime -> D

Murkrow -> lowest tier

Grimer -> lowest tier

Larvitar -> lowest tier

Doduo -> lowest tier

Kangaskhan -> D

Rhyhorn -> lowest tier

As for next run, I will probs take a break from HGSS. I was asked to help with RBY to move it forwards. I am available for discussion, nonethless, it's just the testing that I am gonna put a break on. Once I am back into it, I am planning on testing more of the untested Pokemon (even some of the more terrible stuff) and eventually start testing the post-Radio Tower Pokemon

Thank you for posting about your experience.

I'm glad you mentioned Hustle. I completely forgot about posting that. In my post, I said "make sure your Togepi does NOT have a special attack lowering nature." I should add to that: "make sure Togepi has Serene Grace, NOT HUSTLE!!!"

And yeah, your Togepi evolving late also didn't really help.

Hyper Beam... Normally, I don't like that move, because of the recharging. However, because Togetic gets STAB and has a nice Special Attack, I felt like it would be a good finisher move to deliver the final blow against Whitney's Miltank, Clair's Kingdra and other annoying, bulky opponents.

What you said about Togetic not playing that differently from Togepi... I disagree. Sure, Togetic is still slow, but it's Special Attack gets way better after evolution, and so does its bulk. And it gains Flying type, changing type matchups. And let's not forget that once it evolved, you don't have to baby it anymore and no longer need to constantly worry to prevent it from dying. With Togepi, you have to play ultra-carefully and prevent every little risk of dying, to get it to evolve as soon as possible.

Basically, Togepi in mid-game is a liability. Togetic in mid-game is a strong team member.

I mean, Togepi does not have the bulk or power to take on Whitney, and beating Morty is a lot easier with a Togetic.

Your matchup experiences... Mostly the same as mine. However, against Whitney's Miltank and Clair's Kingdra. Once they took some damage, still being in the green with their HP (about 60% HP left)... Togetic used Choice Specs-boosted Hyper Beam, winning me the Badge.

I would still say higher D, lower C... I'd still say C tier. But again, my Togepi evolved earlier and mine had Serene Grace instead of Hustle. And mine had a Modest nature, which is pretty much perfect. And good Speed and Special Attack IV's, making it slightly faster, fast enough to outspeed some more Pokemon and powerful enough to get some OHKO's that might've been 2HKO's for non-Modest Togetic without 31 SAtk IV's.

Ryota Mitarai · Oct 4, 2020

This reminds me I have yet to post my IVs, whoops

as for "it doesn't change matchups", I meant moreso the outcome isn't really changed. Morty's Haunter are still faster than you and can Hypnosis you, you beat Gastly and Gengar anwyays, Miltank is still faster and can Stomp flinch you (though I guess you have more opportunity to use Charm, I guess?), and Silver at Burned Tower wasn't particularly difficult for Togepi, which is why I think getting a Togetic earlier isn't necessarily improving much. And even then, the aim of lists is completing the game fast; if I have to spend 10 minutes walking around to get an earlier Togetic, that is not in its favor whatsoever. And I did mention I never used Hyper Beam, but all of its moves are pretty important, in my opinion, so Hyper Beam is definitely competing for a slot against moves that all serve some function (unless you like rotating between Fire Blast and Hyper Beam TMs, I guess?)

But anyways, I feel like C might be a bit too high for a Pokemon that I felt provided support than actual victories. High D (even though we order them alphabetically anyways) makes more sense to me, but again, I have not used or considered Hyper Beam, so if it's really that defining, I think someone should just test with Hyper Beam and share their experience as well. But, the way I used it, Togepi, as a whole, proved very unreliable even in matchups like Chuck where it had the upper hand in terms of type matchup (well, Extrasensory).

Bayleef030 · Oct 4, 2020

Ryota Mitarai said:
This reminds me I have yet to post my IVs, whoops

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as for "it doesn't change matchups", I meant moreso the outcome isn't really changed. Morty's Haunter are still faster than you and can Hypnosis you, you beat Gastly and Gengar anwyays, Miltank is still faster and can Stomp flinch you (though I guess you have more opportunity to use Charm, I guess?), and Silver at Burned Tower wasn't particularly difficult for Togepi, which is why I think getting a Togetic earlier isn't necessarily improving much. And even then, the aim of lists is completing the game fast; if I have to spend 10 minutes walking around to get an earlier Togetic, that is not in its favor whatsoever. And I did mention I never used Hyper Beam, but all of its moves are pretty important, in my opinion, so Hyper Beam is definitely competing for a slot against moves that all serve some function (unless you like rotating between Fire Blast and Hyper Beam TMs, I guess?

But anyways, I feel like C might be a bit too high for a Pokemon that I felt provided support than actual victories. High D (even though we order them alphabetically anyways) makes more sense to me, but again, I have not used or considered Hyper Beam, so if it's really that defining, I think someone should just test with Hyper Beam and share their experience as well. But, the way I used it, Togepi, as a whole, proved very unreliable even in matchups like Chuck where it had the upper hand in terms of type matchup (well, Extrasensory).

Morty matchup, fair enough. True.

Personally, I just didn't use Charm anymore when it evolved and when I got the TM's in Goldenrod. My Togetic was mostly an attacker that happened to have decent physical and nice special bulk.

In my opinion, a good support Pokemon can definitely be high-tier if it's really useful. But yeah, Togetic is definitely not top-tier in this game, but I also wouldn't put it in the lowest tiers.

Hyper Beam... Look, in a Gym Battle, you won't be using it if your opponent will survive, because of the recharge turn. However, as a finisher move, it's great. It has STAB, making it very powerful, especially when you have Choice Specs. When you have no other way to break through Whitney's Miltank or Clair's slightly damaged and still fucking bulky Kingdra, this is the perfect way to kill them. Just make sure they are somewhat damaged, and you should be able to kill them, unless your Togetic has a shitty nature and IV's (as in, very low special attack).

I normally don't like using Hyper Beam, but since it's Togetic's only available special STAB move for a while, I gave it a try... And realized that it would be a great finisher move, and used it against Whitney and Clair.

What I meant with low C, high D... I just meant that it's quite weak for a C tier Pokemon if you put it in there, and one of the stronger D tier Pokemon if you put it in the D tier.

But again, like I said before... My playthrough was just a casual one, not a playthrough with the intention of tiering Togetic for Smogon. I just wrote down my experiences, which I remember quite well... So yeah, you actually used it with the intention of tiering it. Putting it on the stronger end of the D tier is fine.

Magnus0 · Oct 4, 2020

I´m doing a run with Hoppip, Mareep, Scyther(trade) and Golduck

Hoppip(10): it beats Pidgey with tackle. It takes one gust from Pidgeotto, which gives you an opportunity to use tail whip. Below average.

Mareep(12): Ohko's Pidgey and 2HKO's Pidgeotto. Great matchup

Hoppip(17): stun spore, sleep powder and tail whip can all be useful against Scyther. It can beat the Cocoons if you still have tackle (I gave up tackle in favor of dual status). Below average matchup again. Skiploom really isn't much better against Scyther.

Flaafy(18): thundershock 3HKO's Scyther (counting sitrus berry), and it 2HKO's the cocoons. Static/thunder wave is useful against Scyther. Can sweep depending on what Scyther does. Flaafy can take one u-turn, even after a leer defense drop. Good matchup

Skiploom(21): outspeeds both of Whitney's Pokemon. Headbutt 3HKO's Clefairy. Sleep powder/stun spore is useful against Miltank, though it does have a lum berry. tail whip can be used to soften Miltank up a bit, and depending on your sleep powder and headbutt flinch luck, you might even take Miltank out. Skiploom can take two stomps Decent-ish.

Flaafy(21): thundershock is a 3HKO on Clefairy. Clefairy doesn't do much damage back, and it has a high chance to paralyze itself by slapping Flaafy's static wool. Growl + static can really shut Miltank down, but Flaafy can't reliably break through Miltank without resorting to paraflinch strats with headbutt. Flaafy can take three stomps from full HP, but it can take more if it lands its growls. Female Flaafy has a good matchup, male Flaafy has an averge matchup.

Scyther(17): it can take out Clefairy with u-turn after a leer. Scyther outspeeds Miltank. Miltank always uses rollout though, which is potentially very bad, to put it lightly. You can leer and get out with u-turn, which does slightly less than 50%, but again, letting Miltank start a rollout chain can be devestating. Overall, decent-ish matchup.

Skiploom (24): it only has access to normal and grass type attacks, so it's beyond useless offensively. Leech seed is very useful agianst Gengar, and you can potentially stall out the haunters with leech seed as well. Pretty bad overall.

Flaafy (24): 2HKO's Ghastly with magnet thundershock. It comes real close to 2HKO'ing the Haunters as well, but it's not quite powerful enough. It can take one shadow ball and use thunder wave against Gengar. Overall, it's too slow and weak to be of much use here. The Haunters will just put you to sleep.

Scizor(24): OHKO's Ghastly and the Haunters with pursuit. It 2HKO's Gengar through sitrus berry, so if Gengar goes for mean look on turn one and hypnosis on turn two, you can beat it with the help of a chesto berry. Scizor can also just take three shadow balls if it needs to. Haunters outspeed, and so beating them is up to hypnosis RNG (or up to how many awakenings you have). Good matchup overall.

Jumpluff(30): Primeape is completely RNG based since you can't use sleep powder on it. If you hit it through double team, you can wittle it down with leech seed and headbutt or mega drain. Jumpluff can take one rock slide. Jumpluff can easily beat Poliwrath by continuously putting it to sleep and then spamming mega drain. Pretty good overall.

Ampharos(31): specs discharge OHKO's both of Chuck's Pokemon. Poliwrath was outsped, but this might be because of my IV's. Primeape usually uses double team, so you have to just get lucky not to miss. Note that you have to delay Flaafy's evolution by one level.

Scizor(31): OHKO's Primeape with wing attack and outspeeds and 2HKO's Poliwrath through sitrus berry. Primeape doesn't deal much damage with rock slide and you can use a chesto berry against Poliwrath. Great matchup.

Golduck(31): specs surf is a range on Primeape. Specs confusion is a 2HKO on Primeape and a 3HKO on Poliwrath (not counting the sitrus berry). Primeape outspeeds, but it doesn't 2HKO with rock slide. Poliwrath can't really hurt Golduck unless it lands a hypnosis. Decent matchup overall, but a bit unreliable.

Jumpluff(32): it can't effectively break through the Magnemites. It can beat Steelix one on one fairly reliably though. Decent matchup

Ampharos(32: outspeeds and OHKO's all of her Pokemon with focus blast. This isn't very reliable of course, but Ampharos can afford to miss because nothing on Jasmine's team directly threatens it. Good matchpup.

Scizor(32): you can 2HKO the Magnemites with rock smash, but Scizor really doesn't like taking thunderbolts. Steelix can't threathen you, so you can wittle it down with rock smash. Decent-ish matchup, but it's probably not worth using rock smash.

Golduck(31): outspeeds and OHKO's everything with surf. Perfect matchup

Jumpluff (33): it can beat Seel and support with leech seed, but that's about it. Dewgong utterly counters it thanks to sleep talk, and that 4x weakness to ice isn't helping. Bad matchup.

Ampharos(33): outspeeds and OHKO's Seel and Dewgong with discharge and Piloswine with focus blast, all without specs. So, it's a great matchup as long as you don't miss that one focus blast. Also, since Piloswine is very bulky, focus blast might not OHKO if you don't have the best iv and/or nature. Mine has a +sp.atk nature, and I suspect that it might matter here, though I have no way to know for sure. In case you miss focus blast against Piloswine, Ampharos can take two mud bombs.

Scizor (32): outspeeds and 2HKO's Seel and Piloswine and 3HKO's Dewgong with wing attack or metal claw. Nothing can touch Scizor really, so great matchup.

Golduck (32): specs surf comes close to 2HKO'ing Seel, which makes Pryce waste all of his potions on Seel. For some reason, Pryce sends out Piloswine once Seel is defeated, so you can just OHKO it with surf. Dewgong walls you though. Decent matchup.

Damm. It's characteristic is 'alert to sound', which means that it has a perfect speed iv, along with likely perfect attack and special attack. I'll try to keep that in mind when it comes to damage ranges. I just didn't feel like catching a different Hoppip.

my attachments were messed up when I posted, so I had to go find the right iv's in my browser history. That's why it shows invalid stats for Mareep. I remember that its attack IV is 4-19, and its special defense iv was something average to slightly above average.

edit: more detailed logs

Bayleef030 · Oct 4, 2020

Magnus0 said:
I´m doing a run with Hoppip, Mareep, Scyther(trade) and Golduck

Hoppip(10): it beats Pidgey with tackle. It takes one gust from Pidgeotto, which gives you an opportunity to use tail whip. Below average.

Mareep(12): Ohko's Pidgey and 2HKO's Pidgeotto. Great matchup

Hoppip(17): stun spore, sleep powder and tail whip can all be useful against Scyther. It can beat the Cocoons if you still have tackle (I gave up tackle in favor of dual status). Below average matchup again. Skiploom really isn't much better against Scyther.

Flaafy(18): thundershock 3HKO's Scyther (counting sitrus berry), and it 2HKO's the cocoons. Static/thunder wave is useful against Scyther. Can sweep depending on what Scyther does. Good matchup

Skiploom(21): outspeeds both of Whitney's Pokemon. Headbutt 3HKO's Clefairy. Sleep powder/stun spore is useful against Miltank, though it does have a lum berry. tail whip can be used to soften Miltank up a bit, and depending on your sleep powder and headbutt flinch luck, you might even take Miltank out. Decent-ish.

Flaafy(21): thundershock is a 3HKO on Clefairy. Growl + static can really shut Miltank down, but Flaafy can't reliably break through Miltank without resorting to paraflinch strats with headbutt. Female Flaafy has a good matchup, male Flaafy has an averge matchup.

Scyther(17): it can take out Clefairy with u-turn after a leer. Scyther outspeeds Miltank. Miltank always uses rollout though, which is potentially very bad, to put it lightly. You can leer and get out with u-turn, which does slightly less than 50%, but again, letting Miltank start a rollout chain can be devestating. Overall, decent matchup.

Skiploom (24): it only has access to normal and grass type attacks, so it's beyond useless offensively. Leech seed is very useful agianst Gengar, and you can potentially stall out the haunters with leech seed as well. Pretty bad overall.

Flaafy (24): 2HKO's Ghastly with magnet thundershock. It comes real close to 2HKO'ing the Haunters as well, but it's not quite powerful enough. It can take one shadow ball and use thunder wave against Gengar. Overall, it's too slow and weak to be of much use here.

Scizor(24): OHKO's Ghastly and the Haunters with pursuit. It 2HKO's Gengar through sitrus berry, so if Gengar goes for mean look on turn one and hypnosis on turn two, you can beat it with the help of a chesto berry. Scizor can also just take three shadow balls if it needs to. Haunters outspeed, and so beating them is up to hypnosis RNG (or up to how many awakenings you have). Good matchup overall.

Jumpluff(30): Primeape is completely RNG based since you can't use sleep powder on it. If you hit it through double team, you can wittle it down with leech seed and headbutt or mega drain. Jumpluff can easily beat Poliwrath by continuously putting it to sleep and then spamming mega drain. Pretty good overall.

Ampharos(31): specs discharge OHKO's both of Chuck's Pokemon. Note that you have to delay Flaafy's evolution by one level.

Scizor(31): OHKO's Primeape with wing attack and 2HKO's Poliwrath through sitrus berry. Great matchup.

Golduck(31): specs surf is a range on Primeape. Specs confusion is a 2HKO on Primeape and a 3HKO on Poliwrath (not counting the sitrus berry). Poliwrath can't really hurt Golduck unless it lands a hypnosis. Decent matchup overall, but a bit unreliable.

Jumpluff(32): it can't effectively break through the Magnemites. It can beat Steelix one on one reliably though. Decent matchup

Ampharos(32: OHKO's all of her Pokemon with focus blast. This isn't very reliable of course, but Ampharos can afford to miss because nothing on Jasmine's team directly threatens it. Good matchpup.

Scizor(32): you can 2HKO the Magnemites with rock smash, but Scizor really doesn't like taking thunderbolts. Steelix can't threathen you, so you can wittle it down with rock smash. Decent matchup.

Golduck(31): OHKO's everything with surf. Perfect matchup

Jumpluff (33): it can beat Seel and support with leech seed, but that's about it. Dewgong utterly counters it thanks to sleep talk, and that 4x weakness to ice isn't helping. Bad matchup.

Ampharos(33): OHKO's Seel and Dewgong with discharge and Piloswine with focus blast, all without specs. So, it's a great matchup as long as you don't miss that one focus blast. Also, since Piloswine is very bulky, focus blast might not OHKO if you don't have the best iv and/or nature. Mine has a +sp.atk nature, and I suspect that it might matter here, though I have no way to know for sure.

Scizor (32): 2HKO's Seel and Piloswine and 3HKO's Dewgong with wing attack or metal claw. Nothing can touch Scizor, so great matchup.

Golduck (32): specs surf comes close to 2HKO'ing, which makes Pryce waste all of his potions on Seel. For some reason, Pryce sends out Piloswine once Seel is defeated, so you can just OHKO it with surf. Dewgong walls you though. Decent matchup.

View attachment 280085
Damm. It's characteristic is 'alert to sound', which means that it has a perfect speed iv, along with likely perfect attack and special attack. I'll try to keep that in mind when it comes to damage ranges. I just didn't feel like catching a different Hoppip.

View attachment 280087
my attachments were messed up when I posted, so I had to go find the right iv's in my browser history. That's why it shows invalid stats for Mareep. I remember that its attack IV is 4-19, and its special defense iv was something average to slightly above average.

View attachment 280084

View attachment 280082

About Hoppip's perfect Speed IV... In general, Jumpluff is very, very, very fast. Even with a lower Speed IV, it would still outspeed basically any opponent in the game. I don't think this really matters when it comes to judging Jumpluff for in-game tiers.

Special Attack does matter though, since its base SAtk isn't very good. That IV definitely matters.

Very nice run. I like Jumpluff a lot, and have used it in Crystal, Colosseum, XD, Pearl (sent an egg from SoulSilver) and SoulSilver. And competitively, back in the good old NetBattle and ShoddyBattle days.
Golduck is one of those Pokemon I've always found cool, but never really used in any playthrough.

Magnus0 · Oct 6, 2020

Jumpluff (38): it can stall Gyarados out with sleep powder and leech seed, because Gyara's best attack is dragon rage. Jumpluff can 1vs1 Kingdra as well, as it outspeeds and shuts Kingdra down with sleep powder and leech seed. Kingdra starts spamming smokescreen though, which can make sleep powder unreliable. Jumpluff can barely take two dragon pulses if you account for leech seed. The Dragonairs are annoying to stall out since they have thunder wave, and they can sometimes ignore sleep powder thanks to shed skin. The Dragonair without fire blast doesn't really pose much of a threat though, so Jumpluff can still beat it. Honestly, good matchup.

Ampharos (38): Gyarados outspeeds, but it is obviously OHKO'd. Specs discharge comes really close to 2HKO'ing the Dragonairs. Ampharos can barely take two hits from Kingdra if you use charge. Charge, magnet discharge gets Kingdra in red from full HP, so it's a good way to KO Kingdra through sitrus berry if you have something to chip Kingdra with. You can also OHKO with charge thunder, but this is unreliable. Allright matchup.

Scizor (37): Gyarados walls it unless you carry natural gift electric, but it can be hard to find a moveslot for that. U-turn is a 3HKO on Kingdra, not counting the sitrus berry, while Kingdra 2HKO's back. Metal claw is a 2HKO on the Dragonairs, but the one with fire blast can toast you to death. Below average matchup.

Golduck (37): specs blizzard outspeeds and OHKO's the Dragonairs. Kingdra and Gyarados outdamage Golduck, so you won't win a 1vs1 against them. Average matchup.

Jumpluff (41): outspeeds everything. It can beat Xatu and Jynx and Exeggutor one on one with sleep powder and aerial ace. Sleep powder and mega drain takes care of Slowbro. Jumpluff can take two phychics from anything, if you account for leech seed healing. It can also take one ice punch from Jynx. The ace Xatu has early bird and aerial ace, so stay away from it. Decent matchup.

Ampharos (40/42): it OHKO's both of the Xatu's with discharge, while they usually go for me-first and confuse ray respectively. You need a magnet or specs to OHKO Slowbro as well (at lv 40 anyway). Imo, scarf is better though, since it allows Ampharos to take out the Xatu's without taking damage. Signal beam can outspeed and OHKO exeggutor, and 2HKO Jynx. Pretty good matchup

Scizor (40): 2HKO's the Xatu's with metal claw, and OHKO's everything else with u-turn or x-scissor. Xatu's confuse ray and Jynx' lovely kiss are the only things you really have to worry about. You might need a full restore depending on luck, but you can usually just power through with a shell bell. Great matchup.

Golduck (40): specs blizzard OHKO's the Xatu's and Exeggutor, though the Xatu's do outspeed. Slowbro walls you and Jynx uses lovely kiss, though you can 2HKO it with shadow claw. Decent matchup.

Jumpluff (41): It can stall out Forretress and it beats Venomoth with aerial ace, but that's about it. Even Ariados is unreliable because you can't put it to sleep. Leech seed is useful against Muk, but Muk OHKO's with gunk shot. Bad matchup.

Ampharos (41): 2HKO's everything but Muk with magnet discharge. Ariados and Forretress can be beaten without taking damage, since Ampharos outspeeds them and they use spider web and toxic spikes respectively. Crobat and Venomoth don't do much damage, but they can be annoying with double team or super sonic. Muk is 3HKO'd, but actually beating it isn't probable because of minimise, and gunk shot 2HKO's. Good matchup.

Scizor (40): hardwalls Koga's entire team. You can use iron defense to reduce damage from Crobat's wing attack, which is literally the only thing that does damage to Scizor. Technician aerial ace can be used to get around double team/minimise. Forretress takes a while to take down, but you can use it to fish for an attack boost with metal claw to speed up the battle. Alternatively, just use an x-attack. Either way, Scizor can power through for a sweep.

Golduck(44): I used some rare candies to test its performance with zen headbutt. It 2HKO's Ariados and Venomoth, but Muk and Crobat are only 3HKO'd. You can use swagger on Forretress and steal the boost with psych up to turn these 3HKO's into 2HKO's, which allows Golduck to beat Ariados, Forretress (with surf) and Muk back to back. Venomoth outspeeds but doesn't deal much damage. Decent matchup, but a sweep is unlikely.

Jumpluff (41): outspeeds everything. aerial ace 2HKO's the hitmons, and it's a 4HKO on Machamp when accounting for the sitrus berry. If you still have a grass type STAB, you can beat Onix as well. Bruno has super effective coverage on almost all of his Pokemon, but as long as you don't miss sleep powder, Jumpluff will never get hit. A full sweep is possible, though very unreliable.

Ampharos (41): go for charge on turn one in case Hitmontop uses dig. This allows you to OHKO with magnet discharge on the following turn. Top sometimes goes for counter, which allows you to beat it without taking damage. Focus blast OHKO's Onix, who uses sandstorm. Machamp is only 3HKO'd (not counting the sitrus berry), but between discharge and static, you have a good chance to paralyze it before going down (Ampharos can take one revenge). Hitmonchan doesn't do much damage, so you can beat it with discharge (2HKO with specs). Hitmonlee outspeeds and 2HKO's with high jump kick, and it can be annoying with swagger. Overall, decent matchup.

Scizor (41): set up three iron defenses on Hitmontop. After that, you can straight up tank blaze kick and fire punch. Wing attack OHKO's Hitmonlee, and it 2HKO's Hitmontop, Hitmonchan and Machamp. Onix is 2HKO'd by metal claw. Another possble sweep, though you might need a full restore.

Golduck (44): I used swagger on Hitmontop and copied the boost with phych up, as top used counter and hit itself once. +2 zen headbutt is a range on top, but there is a good chance that Hitmontop chips itself by hitting itself in confusion. Out comes Hitmonchan, who is outsped and OHKO'd by zen headbutt. Then comes Hitmonlee, who can do two things. If it goes for high jump kick, Golduck can OHKO lee and outspeed and chunk Machamp before dying to rock slide. If Hitmonlee uses swagger, you can sweep by OHKO'ing Machamp with +4 zen headbutt. Be sure to equip a persim berry. In summary, a sweep is possible, but not reliable. Good matchup regardless.

Jumpluff (42): can beat Umbreon with leech seed and aerial ace, even if it starts using double team. Jumpluff can take one pluck from Murkrow, while aerial ace is a 3HKO, so beating it comes down to sleep powder luck. Vileplume and Gengar can't touch Jumpluff at all, so you can safely take them down with aerial ace. You can't beat Houndoom for obvious reasons, but Jumpluff does outspeed, so you can use sleep powder and then leech seed it to support the team. Pretty good matchup.

Ampharos (41): focus blast 2HKO's Umbreon and Houndoom (even through sitrus berry), but good luck hitting that. Murkrow is OHKO'd by discharge and does very little damage. Gengar is 2HKO'd, though it can take Ampharos out with destiny bond. Vileplume walls Ampharos unless you have fire punch.

Scizor (41): 2HKO's Umbreon with x-scissor, 2HKO's Murkrow and Gengar with metal claw and 2HKO's Vileplume with wing attack. Only Gengar poses a threat because of destiny bond. Houndoom is unbeatable for obvious reasons. Good matchup.

Golduck (41): 2HKO's Houndoom, Murkrow and Gengar with specs surf, and 3HKO's Umbreon. specs blizzard OHKO's Murkrow, and 2HKO's Vileplume. It can take a +2 dark pulse from Houndoom. It's a decent matchup, but you can't beat everything at once.

Jumpluff (42): the Dragonites are too overwhelming with their outrage, and the non-Dragonites all have super effective moves against Jumpluff. You can support with leech seed and status, but it dies to everything. Bad matchup.

Ampharos (42): OHKO's Gyarados and 2HKO's Aerodactyl and Charizard with discharge. Scarf allows it to outspeed Gyarados and Charizard, but not Aerodactyl. The Dragonites are too overwhelming to beat one on one. Decent for a Lance matchup.

Scizor (42): it can take out Gyarados or the Dragonites without fire blast with natural gift. It also beats Aerodactyl. Charizard and the ace Dragonite have fire coverage, so you can't beat them. below average.

Golduck (42): specs surf 2HKO's Aerodactyl and Charizard, though the former outspeeds and 2HKO's with thunder fang. Specs blizzard OHKO's the Dragonites, but the one with thunder and the ace straight up OHKO Golduck. Decent-ish for a lance Matchup.

edit: updated logs

Hoppip -> C tier

Pros: unparalled support capability, outspeeds everything, surprisingly decent matchups, good availability
Cons: bad offensive stats, below average route cleaner, terrible early game, inefficient, very reliant on sleep powder

It's not the most efficient, but it does get things done at the end of the day. It can 1vs1 some very problematic Pokemon, like Chuck's Poliwrath or Clair's Kingdra. Headbutt's great neutral coverage makes up for it's otherwise terrible offensive potential. While it's no world-beater, I think it's pretty good. C tier seems appropriate.

Mareep -> A tier

Pros: good availability, good typing, good stats, decent movepool, great matchup spread, reliable paralysis support, just solid all around
Cons: lackluster speed, mid-game dip before discharge

I think this is too good for B. A three-stager with a good typing and good stats that is around for te entire game? yes please.

Scyther(trade) -> B tier

Pros: insane typing, technician, great power, good bulk, great matchups spread
Cons: beyond terrible availability, lackluster speed

Scizor is a solid A, bordeline S tier in terms of performance. It's like Heracross, but much better at the E4. However the fact that you need to catch a Scyther (5% encounter rate) with technician (effecitvely 2.5% encounter rate) is pretty bad. What's more, you also need to catch a Butterfree for compoundeyes, and then you have to catch a Magnemite with a metal coat (effective 4% encounter rate iirc). It's very good once you have it, but it's such a high maintenance Pokemon that I wouldn't put it higher than B.

Golduck -> high C, low B

Pros: very high starting level (31), immediate power, pretty good matchups, mildly interesting psych up niche
Cons: mediocre stats all around

Very standard, vanilla, boring, average, run of the mill water type. The best thing about it is that it's a very low-effort Pokemon. You can catch a level 31 Golduck with the repel trick, and it comes pre-packaged with specs STAB surf, no babying required. It's decent in almost every matchup, but it's nothing special either.

TCTphantom · Oct 6, 2020

Magnus0 said:
Scyther(trade) -> B tier

Pros: insane typing, technician, great power, good bulk, great matchups spread
Cons: beyond terrible availability, lackluster speed

Scizor is a solid A, bordeline S tier in terms of performance. It's like Heracross, but much better at the E4. However the fact that you need to catch a Scyther (5% encounter rate) with technician (effecitvely 2.5% encounter rate) is pretty bad. What's more, you also need to catch a Butterfree for compoundeyes, and then you have to catch a Magnemite with a metal coat (effective 4% encounter rate iirc). It's very good once you have it, but it's such a high maintenance Pokemon that I wouldn't put it higher than B.

You can snag the Metal Coat in the Pokeathalon on Fridays before you beat the Elite 4, cutting out the magnemite-butterfree part. That being said I do agree with everything else. Scizor is a monster from my experience (will likely use on my next run and do the Pokeathalon strat. I would probably lean A if we take into account the Pokeathalon for Scizor, but even then it is a 2.5% encounter effectively that needs you to play sumo for ~30 minutes.

Magnus0 · Oct 6, 2020

MX42 said:
You can snag the Metal Coat in the Pokeathalon on Fridays before you beat the Elite 4, cutting out the magnemite-butterfree part. That being said I do agree with everything else. Scizor is a monster from my experience (will likely use on my next run and do the Pokeathalon strat. I would probably lean A if we take into account the Pokeathalon for Scizor, but even then it is a 2.5% encounter effectively that needs you to play sumo for ~30 minutes.

I know you can get a metal coat from the Pokeathlon Dome, but that's not exactly fast either. Personally, I play on an emulator, which makes getting points in the Pokeathlon an absolute nightmare, so I didn't have a choice. Even if you play on a card, getting a metal coat is gonna take time no matter what, so that should impact Scizor's tier. It's especially bad on Scyther (compared to Onix) as it's very hard to catch a Scyther in the first place.

Turdterra · Oct 6, 2020

Magnus0 said:
Jumpluff (38): it can stall Gyarados out with sleep powder and leech seed, because Gyara's best attack is dragon rage. Jumpluff can 1vs1 Kingdra as well, as it outspeeds and shuts Kingdra down with sleep powder and leech seed. Kingdra starts spamming smokescreen though, which can make sleep powder unreliable. Jumpluff can barely take two dragon pulses if you account for leech seed. The Dragonairs are annoying to stall out since they have thunder wave, and they can sometimes ignore sleep powder thanks to shed skin. The Dragonair without fire blast doesn't really pose much of a threat though, so Jumpluff can still beat it. Honestly, good matchup.

Ampharos (38): Gyarados outspeeds, but it is obviously OHKO'd. Specs discharge comes really close to 2HKO'ing the Dragonairs. Ampharos can barely take two hits from Kingdra if you use charge. Charge, magnet discharge gets Kingdra in red from full HP, so it's a good way to KO Kingdra through sitrus berry if you have something to chip Kingdra with. You can also OHKO with charge thunder, but this is unreliable. Pretty good matchup.

Scizor (37): Gyarados walls it unless you carry natural gift electric, but it can be hard to find a moveslot for that. U-turn is a 3HKO on Kingdra, not counting the sitrus berry. Metal claw is a 2HKO on the Dragonairs, but the one with fire blast can toast you to death. Below average matchup.

Golduck (37): specs blizzard OHKO's the Dragonairs. Kingdra and Gyarados outdamage Golduck, so you won't win a 1vs1 against them. Average matchup.

Jumpluff (41): It can beat Xatu and Jynx and Exeggutor one on one with sleep powder and aerial ace. Sleep powder and mega drain takes care of Slowbro. The ace Xatu has early bird and aerial ace, so stay away from it. Decent matchup.

Ampharos (40/42): it OHKO's both of the Xatu's with discharge. You need a magnet or specs to OHKO Slowbro as well (at lv 40 anyway). Imo, scarf is better though, since it allows Ampharos to take out the Xatu's without taking damage. Signal beam can OHKO exeggutor, and 2HKO Jynx. Pretty good matchup

Scizor (40): 2HKO's the Xatu's with metal claw, and OHKO's everything else with u-turn or x-scissor. Xatu's confuse ray and Jynx' lovely kiss are the only things you really have to worry about. You might need a full restore depending on luck, but you can usually just power through with a shell bell. Great matchup.

Golduck (40): specs blizzard OHKO's the Xatu's and Exeggutor, though the Xatu's do outspeed. Slowbro walls you and Jynx uses lovely kiss, though you can 2HKO it with shadow claw. Decent matchup.

Jumpluff (41): It can stall out Forretress and it beats Venomoth with aerial ace, but that's about it. Even Ariados is unreliable because you can't put it to sleep. Leech seed is useful against Muk, but Muk OHKO's with gunk shot. Bad matchup.

Ampharos (41): 2HKO's everything but Muk with magnet discharge. Muk is 3HKO'd, but actually beating it isn't probable because of minimise. Good matchup.

Scizor (40): hardwalls Koga's entire team. You can use iron defense to reduce damage from Crobat's wing attack, which is literally the only thing that does damage to Scizor. Technician aerial ace can be used to get around double team/minimise. Forretress takes a while to take down, but you can use it to fish for an attack boost with metal claw to speed up the battle. Alternatively, just use an x-attack. Either way, Scizor can power through for a sweep.

Golduck(44): I used some rare candies to test its performance with zen headbutt. It 2HKO's Ariados and Venomoth, but Muk and Crobat are only 3HKO'd. You can use swagger on Forretress and steal the boost with psych up to turn these 3HKO's into 2HKO's. surf 2HKO's Forretress without specs. Decent matchup, but a sweep is unlikely.

Jumpluff (41): outspeeds everything. aerial ace 2HKO's the hitmons, and it's a 4HKO on Machamp when accounting for the sitrus berry. If you still have a grass type STAB, you can beat Onix as well. Bruno has super effective coverage on almost all of his Pokemon, but as long as you don't miss sleep powder, Jumpluff will never get hit. A full sweep is possible, though unreliable.

Ampharos (41): go for charge on turn one in case Hitmontop uses dig. This allows you to OHKO with magnet discharge on the following turn. Top sometimes goes for counter, which allows you to beat it without taking damage. Focus blast OHKO's Onix. Machamp is only 3HKO'd (not counting the sitrus berry), but between discharge and static, you have a good chance to paralyze it. Hitmonchan doesn't do much damage, so you can beat it with discharge. Hitmonlee outdamages you and it can be annoying with swagger. Overall, decent matchup.

Scizor (41): set up three iron defenses on Hitmontop. After that, you can straight up tank blaze kick and fire punch. Wing attack OHKO's Hitmonlee, and it 2HKO's Hitmontop, Hitmonchan and Machamp. Onix is 2HKO'd by metal claw. Another possble sweep, though you might need a full restore.

Golduck (44): I used swagger on Hitmontop and copied the boost with phych up, as top used counter and hit itself once. +2 zen headbutt is a range on top, but there is a good chance that Hitmontop chips itself by hitting itself in confusion. Out comes Hitmonchan, who is outsped and OHKO'd by zen headbutt. Then comes Hitmonlee, who can do two things. If it goes for high jump kick, Golduck can OHKO lee and chunk Machamp before dying to rock slide. If Hitmonlee uses swagger, you can sweep by OHKO'ing Machamp with +4 zen headbutt. Be sure to equip a persim berry. In summary, a sweep is possible, but not reliable. Good matchup regardless.

Jumpluff (42): can beat Umbreon with leech seed and aerial ace, even if it starts using double team. Jumpluff can take one pluck from Murkrow, while aerial ace is a 3HKO, so beating it comes down to sleep powder luck. Vileplume and Gengar can't touch Jumpluff at all, so you can safely take them down with aerial ace. You can't beat Houndoom for obvious reasons, but Jumpluff does outspeed, so you can use sleep powder and then leech seed it to support the team. Pretty good matchup.

Ampharos (41): focus blast 2HKO's Umbreon and Houndoom (even through sitrus berry), but good luck hitting that. Murkrow is OHKO'd by discharge. Gengar is 2HKO'd, though it can take Ampharos out with . Vileplume walls Ampharos unless you have fire punch.

Scizor (41): 2HKO's Umbreon with x-scissor, 2HKO's Murkrow and Gengar with metal claw and 2HKO's Vileplume with wing attack. Houndoom is unbeatable for obvious reasons. Good matchup.

Golduck (41): 2HKO's Houndoom, Murkrow and Gengar with specs surf, and 3HKO's Umbreon. specs blizzard OHKO's Murkrow, and 2HKO's Vileplume. It's a decent matchup, but you can't beat everything at once.

Jumpluff (42): the Dragonites are too overwhelming with their outrage, and the non-Dragonites all have super effective moves against Jumpluff. You can support with leech seed and status, but that's it. Bad matchup.

Ampharos (42): OHKO's Gyarados and 2HKO's Aerodactyl and Charizard with discharge. Scarf allows it to outspeed Gyarados and Charizard, but not Aerodactyl. The Dragonites are too overwhelming to beat one on one. Decent for a Lance matchup.

Scizor (42): it can take out Gyarados or the Dragonites without fire blast with natural gift. It also beats Aerodactyl. Charizard and the ace Dragonite have fire coverage, so you can't beat them. below average.

Golduck (42): specs surf 2HKO's Aerodactyl and Charizard, though the former outspeeds and 2HKO's with thunder fang. Specs blizzard OHKO's the Dragonites, but the one with thunder and the ace straight up OHKO Golduck. Decent-ish for a lance Matchup.

Hoppip -> C tier

Pros: unparalled support capability, outspeeds everything, surprisingly decent matchups, good availability
Cons: bad offensive stats, below average route cleaner, terrible early game, inefficient, very reliant on sleep powder

It's not the most efficient, but it does get things done at the end of the day. It can 1vs1 some very problematic Pokemon, like Chuck's Poliwrath or Clair's Kingdra. Headbutt's great neutral coverage makes up for it's otherwise terrible offensive potential. While it's no world-beater, I think it's pretty good. C tier seems appropriate.

Mareep -> A tier

Pros: good availability, good typing, good stats, decent movepool, great matchup spread, reliable paralysis support, just solid all around
Cons: lackluster speed, mid-game dip before discharge

I think this is too good for B. A three-stager with a good typing and good stats that is around for te entire game? yes please.

Scyther(trade) -> B tier

Pros: insane typing, technician, great power, good bulk, great matchups spread
Cons: beyond terrible availability, lackluster speed

Scizor is a solid A, bordeline S tier in terms of performance. It's like Heracross, but much better at the E4. However the fact that you need to catch a Scyther (5% encounter rate) with technician (effecitvely 2.5% encounter rate) is pretty bad. What's more, you also need to catch a Butterfree for compoundeyes, and then you have to catch a Magnemite with a metal coat (effective 4% encounter rate iirc). It's very good once you have it, but it's such a high maintenance Pokemon that I wouldn't put it higher than B.

Golduck -> high C, low B

Pros: very high starting level (31), immediate power, pretty good matchups, mildly interesting psych up niche
Cons: mediocre stats all around

Very standard, vanilla, boring, average, run of the mill water type. The best thing about it is that it's a very low-effort Pokemon. You can catch a level 31 Golduck with the repel trick, and it comes pre-packaged with specs STAB surf, no babying required. It's decent in almost every matchup, but it's nothing special either.

The issue I have with Mareep in A is the amount of TMs that is needed for it to function reliably well for such a Tier. Off the top of my head, it guzzles down Charge Beam (which is completely RNG based on the Lottery in the Dept. Store), Focus Blast, and if you wanted the ThunderDance set. That's 2-4 TMs right there (No one should really use Thundershock up to level 30.) I am not saying it doesn't have a case for A, it's just that 4 TMs potentially make me wary.

Another thing is that Jumpluff in C is.....something. While we dont emphasis on route clearing, I do want to ask if Hoppip is capable of even doing that in a reliable way other than Sleep + Leech. Not to mention, most of matchups use an unreliable combo. Just pretty wary on C there.

Magnus0 · Oct 7, 2020

Turdterra said:
The issue I have with Mareep in A is the amount of TMs that is needed for it to function reliably well for such a Tier. Off the top of my head, it guzzles down Charge Beam (which is completely RNG based on the Lottery in the Dept. Store), Focus Blast, and if you wanted the ThunderDance set. That's 2-4 TMs right there (No one should really use Thundershock up to level 30.) I am not saying it doesn't have a case for A, it's just that 4 TMs potentially make me wary.

Another thing is that Jumpluff in C is.....something. While we dont emphasis on route clearing, I do want to ask if Hoppip is capable of even doing that in a reliable way other than Sleep + Leech. Not to mention, most of matchups use an unreliable combo. Just pretty wary on C there.

Did you even read the logs? I didn't use thunder, rain dance or charge beam! Why would you even bother with thunderdance if you can just go specs discharge, or even charge discharge? I only got focus blast, which is used in like three matchups, so it's not even that necessary.

I did use thundershock until level 31. It's not great against bosses, but it´s perfectly fine against all of the massively underlevelled route trainers and Team Rocket grunts. During the time that thundershock has fallen off (from around lv 25-31), you'll be fighting almost exclusively underlevelled opponents. After Morty, you'll fight the trainers on route 42, the trainers at the Lake of Rage, the Team Rocket mooks in Mahogany Town, the trainers on route 38 and 39, and a whole entire water route where even the weak thundershock OHKO's everything. You can even clear the lighthouse, which has trainers mostly using water and flying types. I think thundershock is fine for this whole section of the game, but if you are really worried about all of these underlevelled trainers, you can get the charge beam TM in Olivine City (not from the lottery) right after beating Morty.

So in the worst case scenario, you need one TM from the department store, and one TM that isn't even in high demand. That's not that bad, and remember that I didn't even bother with charge beam either.

As for Jumpluff, you can clear routes with headbutt. 2HKO's almost everything that doesn't have good bulk. Later on you get mega drain, which is useful against the many water types in the game, especially the ones on the water route. It's not a great route cleaner, sure, but you really don't need to stall out random trainers with leech seed either.

Turdterra · Oct 7, 2020

Magnus0 said:
Did you even read the logs? I didn't use thunder, rain dance or charge beam! Why would you even bother with thunderdance if you can just go specs discharge, or even charge discharge? I only got focus blast, which is used in like three matchups, so it's not even that necessary.

I did use thundershock until level 31. It's not great against bosses, but it´s perfectly fine against all of the massively underlevelled route trainers and Team Rocket grunts. During the time that thundershock has fallen off (from around lv 25-31), you'll be fighting almost exclusively underlevelled opponents. After Morty, you'll fight the trainers on route 42, the trainers at the Lake of Rage, the Team Rocket mooks in Mahogany Town, the trainers on route 38 and 39, and a whole entire water route where even the weak thundershock OHKO's everything. You can even clear the lighthouse, which has trainers mostly using water and flying types. I think thundershock is fine for this whole section of the game, but if you are really worried about all of these underlevelled trainers, you can get the charge beam TM in Olivine City (not from the lottery) right after beating Morty.

So in the worst case scenario, you need one TM from the department store, and one TM that isn't even in high demand. That's not that bad, and remember that I didn't even bother with charge beam either.

As for Jumpluff, you can clear routes with headbutt. 2HKO's almost everything that doesn't have good bulk. Later on you get mega drain, which is useful against the many water types in the game, especially the ones on the water route. It's not a great route cleaner, sure, but you really don't need to stall out random trainers with leech seed either.

I did read logs and I have disagreements with them outside of the lack of support given to Mareep. Focus Blast is used in 3 fights yes, but is an absolute necessity for Jasmine otherwise you can’t deal with Steelix and Pryce’s Pilo.

You are missing Rival and Admin Fights which are required tests to have in your logs. If you have these logs, please edit your posts to have them.

TCTphantom · Oct 7, 2020

I’m gonna start up a new run. Gonna do Gastly (Trade) and Scizor so we can get more of a consensus on those two. I also saw there was some debate for Lapras and Mareep so I will do those two as well. Expect some logs later this week.

Magnus0 remind me the trade mechanics for moves, did your scizor have wing attack and metal claw? Was it when you evolved it at 21?

Magnus0 · Oct 7, 2020

Turdterra said:
I did read logs and I have disagreements with them outside of the lack of support given to Mareep. Focus Blast is used in 3 fights yes, but is an absolute necessity for Jasmine otherwise you can’t deal with Steelix and Pryce’s Pilo.

You are missing Rival and Admin Fights which are required tests to have in your logs. If you have these logs, please edit your posts to have them.

what disagreements? And what support? I gave it one TM, that's it. If you defeat every trainer, you should have plenty of money to buy focus blast before Jasmine. There are many other Pokemon that need a TM from the department store, such as Cyndaquil, Magnemite and almost every water type, and the cost of TM's rarely comes up for them. What's different for Mareep?

I don't have time to extensively test my entire team against every rival and admin fight every time. If you really want, I can provide logs since I still have save states.

MX42 said:
I’m gonna start up a new run. Gonna do Gastly (Trade) and Scizor so we can get more of a consensus on those two. I also saw there was some debate for Lapras and Mareep so I will do those two as well. Expect some logs later this week.

Magnus0 remind me the trade mechanics for moves, did your scizor have wing attack and metal claw? Was it when you evolved it at 21?

give your Scyther a metal coat at level 20. When it levels to 21, it learns wing attack. It immediately evolves and learns metal claw as well, so yes, you can have both moves.

Turdterra · Oct 7, 2020

Magnus0 said:
what disagreements? And what support? I gave it one TM, that's it. If you defeat every trainer, you should have plenty of money to buy focus blast before Jasmine. There are many other Pokemon that need a TM from the department store, such as Cyndaquil, Magnemite and almost every water type, and the cost of TM's rarely comes up for them. What's different for Mareep?

I don't have time to extensively test my entire team against every rival and admin fight every time. If you really want, I can provide logs since I still have save states. I will wait untill MX42 concludes his run with Mareep.

give your Scyther a metal coat at level 20. When it levels to 21, it learns wing attack. It immediately evolves and learns metal claw as well, so yes, you can have both moves.

Except you do need to test those fights, it’s in the OP and I expect to see them in every test.

Magnus0 · Oct 7, 2020

Turdterra said:
Except you do need to test those fights, it’s in the OP and I expect to see them in every test.

sure

Flaafy(16): OHKO's Zubat and 2HKO's Koffing

Flaafy (18): OHKO's Zubat, 2HKO's Ghastly and Croconaw. Bayleef would probably wall Flaafy, but I can't test this obviously.

Flaafy (23): still OHKO's Zubat, and 2HKO's Ghastly and Croconaw with thundershock. You can OHKO all of these with thunder if you want, but it's not really necessary. Magnemite doesn't take much damage and it has sonicboom, so stay away from it.

Flaafy (27): specs thundershock OHKO's Zubat, and 2HKO's Koffing and Raticate. Rat outspeeds, but Flaafy is bulky enough to take two hyper fangs (rat usually uses scary face anyway).

Ampharos (34): specs discharge OHKO's everything but Weezing.

Ampharos (34): specs discharge OHKO's Golbat, Haunter and Feraligatr with specs discharge. Sneasel and Magnemite are 2HKO'd by it. You can also use focus blast on Sneasel and Magnemite for a OHKO. Might need a healing item to sweep.

Ampharos (35): specs discharge OHKO's Golbat and 2HKO's Weezing.

Ampharos (36): specs discharge 2HKO's Arbok, 1HKO's Murkrow, and 3HKO's Vileplume on a range. Vileplume doesn't really threathen Ampharos so you can beat it despite the type disadvantage.

Ampharos (36): specs discharge OHKO's both Houndour and Koffing. It is a 2HKO on Houndoom, who fails to 2HKO you back even after fire fang damage from Houndour. As long as you don't flinch anywhere, Ampharos soloes this.

Ampharos (40): same as the last Silver fight, except that Feraligatr actually does a lot of damage now with waterfall. Kadabra is OHKO'd by specs discharge, but it can use disable to shut you down. You likely need healing support for a full sweep.

tldr: Mareep can solo all of these fights except Silver 4 and 5, and even those two fights aren't bad matchups.

I did numerous tests for this thread, all without logs for the admin and rival fights. You never adressed this until you disagreed with one of my nominations. I just think you brought it up now so you can ignore my points and my questions. If you agree with my logs, why not share those disagreements with the thread so there can be an actual discussion? You haven't expanded on the disagreement, or on my question about the "support" that I supposedly gave Mareep.

If you don't have time to expand or wathever, that's fine, but don't try to shut me down by conveniently bringing up that I didn't provide all the logs. It comes off really snarky and ungrateful. I'd like there to be open discussion, but that can't happen if you only say you disagree without actually explaining yourself.

TCTphantom · Oct 7, 2020

Magnus0 said:
give your Scyther a metal coat at level 20. When it levels to 21, it learns wing attack. It immediately evolves and learns metal claw as well, so yes, you can have both moves.

I’m doing my test on cart, so I will have to do a trade evolution. If the trade evo mechanics make Scizor choose between Wing Attack and Metal Claw that might hurt it. I hope that when it trades at level 21 it would learn Metal Claw.

Turdterra · Oct 7, 2020

Magnus0 said:
sure

Flaafy(16): OHKO's Zubat and 2HKO's Koffing

Flaafy (18): OHKO's Zubat, 2HKO's Ghastly and Croconaw. Bayleef would probably wall Flaafy, but I can't test this obviously.

Flaafy (23): still OHKO's Zubat, and 2HKO's Ghastly and Croconaw with thundershock. You can OHKO all of these with thunder if you want, but it's not really necessary. Magnemite doesn't take much damage and it has sonicboom, so stay away from it.

Flaafy (27): specs thundershock OHKO's Zubat, and 2HKO's Koffing and Raticate. Rat outspeeds, but Flaafy is bulky enough to take two hyper fangs (rat usually uses scary face anyway).

Ampharos (34): specs discharge OHKO's everything but Weezing.

Ampharos (34): specs discharge OHKO's Golbat, Haunter and Feraligatr with specs discharge. Sneasel and Magnemite are 2HKO'd by it. You can also use focus blast on Sneasel and Magnemite for a OHKO. Might need a healing item to sweep.

Ampharos (35): specs discharge OHKO's Golbat and 2HKO's Weezing.

Ampharos (36): specs discharge 2HKO's Arbok, 1HKO's Murkrow, and 3HKO's Vileplume on a range. Vileplume doesn't really threathen Ampharos so you can beat it despite the type disadvantage.

Ampharos (36): specs discharge OHKO's both Houndour and Koffing. It is a 2HKO on Houndoom, who fails to 2HKO you back even after fire fang damage from Houndour. As long as you don't flinch anywhere, Ampharos soloes this.

Ampharos (40): same as the last Silver fight, except that Feraligatr actually does a lot of damage now with waterfall. Kadabra is OHKO'd by specs discharge, but it can use disable to shut you down. You likely need healing support for a full sweep.

tldr: Mareep can solo all of these fights except Silver 4 and 5, and even those two fights aren't bad matchups.

I did numerous tests for this thread, all without logs for the admin and rival fights. You never adressed this until you disagreed with one of my nominations. I just think you brought it up now so you can ignore my points and my questions. If you agree with my logs, why not share those disagreements with the thread so there can be an actual discussion? You haven't expanded on the disagreement, or on my question about the "support" that I supposedly gave Mareep.

If you don't have time to expand or wathever, that's fine, but don't try to shut me down by conveniently bringing up that I didn't provide all the logs. It comes off really snarky and ungrateful. I'd like there to be open discussion, but that can't happen if you only say you disagree without actually explaining yourself.

If you did not post the rival and admin fights originally, then it’s my fault for not calling them out when I did, however they should have never been excluded from the beginning. They’ve been in the OP in the beginning under Major Fights. As for ignoring your questions, no. If you want to know my disagreements with Mareep:
You called for an A nom with logs that don’t qualify for the standards of said tier. If you really want it in A, I expect more than “Mareep does this and that” and not seeing anything regarding what the opponent does. Not a good lot to base A on. This goes for the rest of the noms too. They are missing key points throughout and if you give me till the end of the day, I’ll compile a list since you seem to think I have no basis on my disagreement.

TCTphantom · Oct 7, 2020

Also as a side note I am playing on a Japanese version of SS. While this would allow me to actually buy coins, I am not using the GC for this run, unless Turdterra thinks the SD TM is cheap enough it is different than Flamethrower and Ice Beam, idr the verdict on that.

Turdterra · Oct 7, 2020

MX42 said:
Also as a side note I am playing on a Japanese version of SS. While this would allow me to actually buy coins, I am not using the GC for this run, unless Turdterra thinks the SD TM is cheap enough it is different than Flamethrower and Ice Beam, idr the verdict on that.

Unfortunately while you can buy coins, GC TMs still have to be banned because it would create a huge grey area

Magnus0 · Oct 7, 2020

MX42 said:
I’m doing my test on cart, so I will have to do a trade evolution. If the trade evo mechanics make Scizor choose between Wing Attack and Metal Claw that might hurt it. I hope that when it trades at level 21 it would learn Metal Claw.

oh, that's right, I used the randomizer. The way I played, Scyther was lv 21 when it actually evolved, so it should be able to learn metal claw as well if you trade at level 21.

Turdterra said:
If you did not post the rival and admin fights originally, then it’s my fault for not calling them out when I did, however they should have never been excluded from the beginning. They’ve been in the OP in the beginning under Major Fights. As for ignoring your questions, no. If you want to know my disagreements with Mareep:

Now we're getting somewhere.

Yes, that's my point. You should have called me out earlier if you really cared about the rival and admin logs. That's why I figured that they aren't that important anyway. And personally, I do think they aren't very important. Almost all of the admins have terrible teams and incredibly uncompetitive movepools. They're nothing more than glorified route trainers imo, not really worth the time. Silver can be remotely difficult, depending on your team, so I think there is value in keeping logs for him at least.

Turdterra said:
If you want to know my disagreements with Mareep:
You called for an A nom with logs that don’t qualify for the standards of said tier. If you really want it in A, I expect more than “Mareep does this and that” and not seeing anything regarding what the opponent does. Not a good lot to base A on. This goes for the rest of the noms too. They are missing key points throughout and if you give me till the end of the day, I’ll compile a list since you seem to think I have no basis on my disagreement.

If I didn't mention what the opponent does, it's because it didn't really matter, either because the enemy is too weak to do anything meaningful (i.e. Falkner, like all of the admins) or because the opponent just trashed Mareep (i.e. Morty). I should probably mention when this is the case though, so I will update the logs. I will add mentions of speed tiers where they matter as well.

That said, I think your standards on logs are too high. A general feeling or opinion is also worth a lot. Personally, I don't mind extensive testing because I think it's fun, but it shouldn't be a requirement. Demanding detailed logs of every fight is only turning people away from the thread.

ceal · Oct 7, 2020

Magnus0 said:
Now we're getting somewhere.

Yes, that's my point. You should have called me out earlier if you really cared about the rival and admin logs. That's why I figured that they aren't that important anyway. And personally, I do think they aren't very important. Almost all of the admins have terrible teams and incredibly uncompetitive movepools. They're nothing more than glorified route trainers imo, not really worth the time. Silver can be remotely difficult, depending on your team, so I think there is value in keeping logs for him at least.

Even if Turdterra failed to recognize the absence of important logs in your post (hell even I didn't notice it until now and your posts about Ratatta are what inspired my run with it), you were still the one who wasn't posting those logs in the first place. I don't think it's fair to act indignant to someone else over mistakes you made. I appreciate that you don't value the rocket fights all that highly but they're still considered major battles by the rules of the thread and if you're gonna test for this list you're expected to treat them as such. This would apply in just about any other thread, I'd imagine.

Magnus0 said:
That said, I think your standards on logs are too high. A general feeling or opinion is also worth a lot. Personally, I don't mind extensive testing because I think it's fun, but it shouldn't be a requirement. Demanding detailed logs of every fight is only turning people away from the thread.

While I personally think your logs are alright, I don't think it can be argued that having longer, more detailed logs is hurting anyone. Having extra information beyond what moves ohko, 2hko, etc. can be genuinely useful in evaluating a mon's performance when you're reading someone else's logs. For example, Flaffly might 3hko Scyther with Thundershock, but does it stomach a Leer into U-Turn? Will Scyther even select that series of moves at all? Can Flaffly manage to sweep through the Gastlys and Haunters vs Morty with just Thundershock or will their Curses or Sucker Punches kill it in the meantime? These are important things to know about these mus and while what you've provided isn't useless more info is always more useful. I don't think wanting high quality logs from testers is really turning anyone away from this thread and if it is, they probably weren't gonna give that great of logs anyways.

TROP · Oct 7, 2020

Furret being above Meganium or anywhere above D at all seriously makes me doubt the credibility of this tier list. Raticate does every single thing Furret does but better thanks to superior lv up movepool and offensive stats while having pretty much the same availability. Water hms change nothing when there are more than enough things to take those that don't suck as much in actual battle, with one of them being removable and never used ever again immediately after Dragon's Den if not playing Soul Silver.

Other changes that should be done:

Magikarp --> D and could even go as far as E.

There is no logical reason for ever using this in the game that just gives you a guaranteed high level (for the time you get it anyway) shiny Gyarados and when the route suggest getting choice specs that also happen to be in lake of rage anyway. Red Gyarados would also be a higher level than a Magikarp Gyarados like 99% of the time.

Dratini ---> added to E

Because game corner tms are not allowed, assuming this means getting pokemon from there is not allowed too. Because of that, this comes way too late to be useful and not worth the babying for something that is still subpar if it can't get to Dragonite without excessive grinding. And if the game corner is allowed for this thing, there is no reason for game corner tms being banned when it would only take like 10 more minutes to get those thanks to how easy voltorb flip is (be it because you know how it actually works or use the online solver).

Turdterra · Oct 7, 2020

TROP said:
Furret being above Meganium or anywhere above D at all seriously makes me doubt the credibility of this tier list. Raticate does every single thing Furret does but better thanks to superior lv up movepool and offensive stats while having pretty much the same availability. Water hms change nothing when there are more than enough things to take those that don't suck as much in actual battle, with one of them being removable and never used ever again immediately after Dragon's Den if not playing Soul Silver.

Other changes that should be done:

Magikarp --> D and could even go as far as E.

There is no logical reason for ever using this in the game that just gives you a guaranteed high level (for the time you get it anyway) shiny Gyarados and when the route suggest getting choice specs that also happen to be in lake of rage anyway. Red Gyarados would also be a higher level than a Magikarp Gyarados like 99% of the time.

Dratini ---> added to E

Because game corner tms are not allowed, assuming this means getting pokemon from there is not allowed too. Because of that, this comes way too late to be useful and not worth the babying for something that is still subpar if it can't get to Dragonite without excessive grinding. And if the game corner is allowed for this thing, there is no reason for game corner tms being banned when it would only take like 10 more minutes to get those thanks to how easy voltorb flip is (be it because you know how it actually works or use the online solver).

It’s evidently clear you’ve opted to not read the thread at all about Pokémon being placed already, being considered rising or falling, and Dratini. I’ll take this post and dissect it down.

Meganium can go down to D for all I care, but people will have an absolute crap fest of it being down that low because It’s a starter. I support to D as it’s not doing anything really major and other Grass types like Vileplume for example accomplish more.

Raticate is already headed to A. That’s pretty much a consensus at this point. Furret’s placement should not be held accountable for Raticate’s performances. Each Pokémon is tested in their own individual performances. As for Furret itself, it accomplishes things and has HM Utility to boot. Last I checked on in game tier threads, HM utility was highly regarded and testers have stated C is a fine fit for it.

While I am in agreement with Magikarp being low, the only main differences between a Magikarp and Red Gyara is Whitney and Morty being things Red Gyara miss and the Magikarp period. Fundamentally, they are the same Pokémon and Red Gyara’s performance would resemble a regular ones at the point of capture (Red Gyarados).

Dratini has been established as perfectly acceptable at the GC as we already clarified that Dragon’s Den would be E automatically. As a result Wide Lens, Scope Lens, and Dratini are fine. If we to say no GC period, then Abra would most likely take a hit as well as it’s ranked in being obtained from there (most likely not however).

Online solvers have a disclaimer that they are not 100% accurate. Once more GC TMs are blacklisted, it does not take 10 more minutes to get 10k coins so just stop that right now, we’ve got people claiming 35 minutes, 45 minutes, and even hours. Due to that range it’s not allowed.

So tl:dr, Meganium can drop, stop comparing Furret to an A rank mon, Dratini stays, Magikarp is merged with Red Gyara for GPers, and stop talking about GC TMs.

Pokemon Heartgold and Soulsilver In-Game Tier List (MkII)

Bayleef030

Ryota Mitarai

Shrektimus Prime

Bayleef030

Ryota Mitarai

Shrektimus Prime

Bayleef030

Magnus0

Bayleef030

Magnus0

TCTphantom

formerly MX42

Magnus0

Turdterra

Magnus0

Turdterra

TCTphantom

formerly MX42

Magnus0

Turdterra

Magnus0

TCTphantom

formerly MX42

Turdterra

TCTphantom

formerly MX42

Turdterra

Magnus0

ceal

TROP

BAN DRUDDIGON. FIREWALL DRAGON DID NOTHING WRONG

Turdterra

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