Pokemon Heartgold and Soulsilver In-Game Tier List (MkII)

I wanna chime in and say that this contradicts my experience. I've played VFlip on actual cartridge and it has taken me hours (no, really, it did take hours) to obtain just ONE TM. Afaik, the online solver isn't really good either (first time I used it, it told me to flip a card that turned out to be a Voltorb...). Emulator players can easily get them because of states (and hacking in coins) but any cartridge player is gonna suffer.

Also, Voltorb Flip is definitely not sudoku, sudoku doesn't put you into 50/50s scenarios 4 times per level (this actually happens in higher levles, you get pitted in a lot of 50/50s, sometimes even worse). If you get a bad grid on later level where it's pretty much impossible to predict which row or column is safe to risk on, you can easily lose and go back to level 1 (if you have flipped less cards than the current level, you drop to the level that equals the amount of cards you flipped before losing).
This particular experience I'm referring to was...yesterday. Smart usage of sudoku techniques carry you quite far, when the solvers are needed you sometimes fail on poor luck (I hit a 3% voltorb on my first tile yesterday) but the majority of the time they carry you to where if you're at risk of hitting a Voltorb you've had your 6 or 7 tiles already hit to prevent you from dropping. As long as you don't fuck up you should be able to win every 2nd or 3rd board at level 6 or 7 and it only takes fifteen or so wins to get your 10k
 
I am in support for Game Corner TMs being blacklisted. They are a total timesink and if we allow Raikou with Thunderbolt, this means a slippery slope happens.

If Raikou is A with Thunderbolt, why can't Magnemite be A? Why can't Mareep? It would change the dimensions of tiering completely and overcentralize the list unnecessarily.
 

Ryota Mitarai

Shrektimus Prime
is a Smogon Media Contributor
when the solvers are needed you sometimes fail on poor luck (I hit a 3% voltorb on my first tile yesterday) but the majority of the time they carry you to where if you're at risk of hitting a Voltorb you've had your 6 or 7 tiles already hit to prevent you from dropping.
Assuming you are using a Voltorb Flip solver (as I am reading it this way), would you mind linking it? I am curious to know if we both used the same one.

As long as you don't fuck up you should be able to win every 2nd or 3rd board at level 6 or 7 and it only takes fifteen or so wins to get your 10k
that's pretty hard to accomplish in later levels. At least from experience, either the initial grid is terrible and you flip a Voltorb immediately or you get forced into a 50/50 pretty quickly, before you can flip enough cards so that you don't drop levels before losing.

This also raises the question as to how much we assume the average reader knows how to play sudoku, because, honestly, we could debate this all day (I, for example, haven't really done sudokus professionally or daily, though I have done ones in the past) and a lot of people I know have never done sudokus at all in their life. This is similar to the discussion for Pokewalker we had earlier, where the question of how much we assume the player is athletic and how their lifestyle (how they get to school / work and etc..) was raised (as if you do not have either of those, the Pokewalker is pretty much useless to you).
 
Assuming you are using a Voltorb Flip solver (as I am reading it this way), would you mind linking it? I am curious to know if we both used the same one.


that's pretty hard to accomplish in later levels. At least from experience, either the initial grid is terrible and you flip a Voltorb immediately or you get forced into a 50/50 pretty quickly, before you can flip enough cards so that you don't drop levels before losing.

This also raises the question as to how much we assume the average reader knows how to play sudoku, because, honestly, we could debate this all day (I, for example, haven't really done sudokus professionally or daily, though I have done ones in the past) and a lot of people I know have never done sudokus at all in their life. This is similar to the discussion for Pokewalker we had earlier, where the question of how much we assume the player is athletic and how their lifestyle (how they get to school / work and etc..) was raised (as if you do not have either of those, the Pokewalker is pretty much useless to you).
Sure http://www.voltorbflip.com/


If you look at the grid you can usually pick out highly safe spots by recognizing which combos can't be 2s or 3s in specific spots. You don't always get givens but you usually 4 or 5 highly likely free spots.


I just don't think it's reasonable to ban the 95/100 TMs. Denying core movepool options severely warps the lens in which these Pokemon are viewed. Note it as a caveat that getting these TMs takes time investment and acknowledge where there are distinct differences in gameplay but view the Pokemon honestly.

As a Raikou aside, I've used Rain Dance+Thunder Raikou in the past, it would be similarly effective to the Thunderbolt variant, if slower
 
One thing I'd like to raise about the TMs is that in the original Japanese versions, coins can be bought for Poké Dollars. This essentially puts them on the same tier as the FRLG and RSE game corner TMs; prohibitively expensive TMs that either are an extreme resource drain early-game or are something that are more than feasible late-game, especially before the Elite Four. If someone is playing JP HGSS, then it is an extremely simple affair to pick up the Thunderbolt TM from the Game Corner after Master Balling Raikou, for instance.
 

Yung Dramps

awesome gaming
is a Pre-Contributor
One thing I'd like to raise about the TMs is that in the original Japanese versions, coins can be bought for Poké Dollars. This essentially puts them on the same tier as the FRLG and RSE game corner TMs; prohibitively expensive TMs that either are an extreme resource drain early-game or are something that are more than feasible late-game, especially before the Elite Four. If someone is playing JP HGSS, then it is an extremely simple affair to pick up the Thunderbolt TM from the Game Corner after Master Balling Raikou, for instance.
I'm a little confused here. Are you arguing in favor of or against considering the Game Corner TMs?
 

Ryota Mitarai

Shrektimus Prime
is a Smogon Media Contributor
used this one for the issue I raised earlier, though it was years ago so I cannot remember exactly

If you look at the grid you can usually pick out highly safe spots by recognizing which combos can't be 2s or 3s in specific spots. You don't always get givens but you usually 4 or 5 highly likely free spots.
this is how I generally go too. I generally just don't flip at all cards that do not give 2x or 3x (like 4 / 1 or 2 /3 and 3 / 2 (and the obvious 0 / 5). Even if I tried in the past to eliminate the useless cards, I still got pitted in 50/50s

I guess this is just a matter of experience (and sudoku experience, I guess? But again, I mentioned I don't really play sudoku so).

(just as a side note, I tried the solver and at level 7 it killed me turn one. Level 6 killed me on second turn. Not sure if I am using it wrong or I am jinxed or whatever)
 
Here are my fights up to Clair.
Crobat: Will get walled and outdamaged by his Weezing. It can cope against the Koffing.
Ampharos: Mine had Discharge and Choice Specs by then. Meaning it was able to OHKO everything.
Umbreon: Can't even OHKO the Koffing. Unlike Crobat, it's easily respectable to Poison in this fight.
Quilava: If Weezing gets a Sludge Poison, then the sweep is over for it. Fire Blast can take care of the Koffing, but it will need a PP Up boost if a sweep is wanted.
Crobat: Like the Burnt Tower matchup, it can't get past Magnemite. Even the Golbat can be troublesome with Confuse Ray.
Ampharos: If Golbat gets a Confuse Ray in, then the sweep becomes less consistent. Otherwise it can take care of everything with Choice Specs boosted Discharge. Meganium can be an issue if Totodile was picked though.
Umbreon: Bulky enough to take confusion damage, but Silver's starter will eventually outmuscle it.
Quilava: It will never be able to get a sweep in against the Feraligatr.
Crobat: Smokescreen from Weezing and Confuse Ray from Golbat will gradually wear it down. Unlike Umbreon, it isn't as bulky to take as many bad turns.
Ampharos: If you gave it Choice Specs, then this really shouldn't be an issue.
Umbreon: Can beat his team if it can get past any confusion issues. While it's bulky enough to withstand confusion damage, too many bad rolls could lead to a defeat from Weezing.
Quilava: It can beat Golbat, but it will be too frail to sweep the Weezing. If it has Lava Plume or Fire Blast, then it may be able to get a sweep in if it has Choice Specs.
Crobat: It won't OHKO Arbok, and it will get a Paralyze from Glare. After that, Murkrow can make short work of it.
Ampharos: Even with the Electric resistance from Vileplume, this really shouldn't be an issue if it's given Choice Specs.
Umbreon: Murkow's Night Shade can wear it down, and Vileplume will easily finish it off afterwards.
Quilava: It can easily sweep her if given Choice Specs.
Crobat: It can beat everything other than the Houndoom which will outdamage it with its STAB moves.
Ampharos: It can potentially get a sweep in, but it may depend on Static luck to get past Houndoom.
Umbreon: Like Crobat, Houndoom will easily outdamage it even if the player taught it Dig.
Typhlosion: Houndoom's STAB Faint Attack will be able to beat it unless the player taught it Rock Tomb. If so, then this will be a safer fight for it.
Crobat: Her Dragonair can easily get a Thunder Wave in and pick off its health with Dragon Pulse.
Ampharos: As the Dragonair can stomach its Electric moves even with Choice Specs, they can use Dragon Pulse to put it in a health range which will allow the Kingdra to finish it off.
Umbreon: It has the bulk to take on most of her team, but the Kingdra's Hydro Pump can easily 2HKO it.
Typhlosion: Her Gyarados can easily wall its attacks and outdamage it with Dragon Rage and Dragon Pulse.
 
Raticate (23): bite outspeeds and OHKO's Ghastly and both haunters. It fails to 2HKO Gengar because of sitrus berry, but I'm sure that crunch (lv24) would have 2HKO'd. Gengar can't touch Raticate anyway, so great matchup.

Gloom (23): it's pretty bad because it doesn't have even a neutral move to use. The most useful thing that Gloom can manage is to stun spore Gengar, because it does reliable tank shadow ball. Bad matchup.

Drowzee (23): it can beat anything but Gengar thanks to STAB confusion and insomnia. Gengar's shadow ball OHKO's though. all-right matchup.

Magnemite (21): thunder straight up OHKO's Ghastly and the Haunters. It 2HKO's Gengar too, and Magnemite can reliably tank a shadow ball. Thunder wave is great against Gengar. Overall, fairly good matchup, though you need some healing and or luck to sweep.

Raticate (30): you outspeed and 2HKO Primeapre with return, so as long as you don't miss the second return, you should be good. Return is a 3HKO on Poliwrath, but sitrus berry makes it into a 4HKO. Raticate can take two hits, so you have to heal if Chuck is sensible and never uses focus punch. Geting paralyzed by body slam can actually help because of guts. Overall, not bad actually, especially for a normal type.

Gloom (29): specs sludge bomb 2HKO's both of Chuck's pokemon. Gloom also resists almost all of Chuck's attacks, so you're never really in danger. Good matchup.

Hypno (29): specs psybeam 2HKO's Primeape and it 3HKO's Poliwrath. Poliwrath can actually outdamage you with body slam though, so you might need to heal. Overall, it's still a good matchup though.

Magneton (30): specs thunder OHKO's both of Chuck's Pokemon, so you win as long as you don't miss thunder. Not very consistant, but still a good matchup.

Raticate (30): dig OHKO's both Magnemites, unsurprisingly. Dig is a 6HKO on Steelix though, not even accounting for the sitrus berry, so Raticate just can't break through. You can let yourself get paralyzed on purpose to increase your damage, but it's not enough to beat Steelix.

Gloom (29): you can use natural gift ground to quickly get rid of one of the Magnemites. You can get a persim berry from the onix trade in Violet City. From there, spamming mega drain and continually putting Steelix to sleep should be enough to win. It's a bit of a grindy matchup, but not too bad overall.

Hypno (29): specs focus miss OHKO's the Magnemites. It's a 2HKO on Steelix. Focus blast is very inconsistant of course, so it's very possible that you run out of pp. decent matchup still.

I also tried meditate + drain punch, but it didn't really work well. Steelix is just too bulky to break through, and setting up agianst a mon with thunder wave and super sonic isn't fun.

Magneton (30): this is kind of an awkward matchup because neither of you can really thouch each other. Specs thunder can still do some damage to the opposing Magnemites, but not OHKO'ing them means that you'll get parafused, which isn't fun. You can use sonicboom on Steelix. Overall, really mediocre matchup.

My overall thoughts so far

Raticate: great. It didn't struggle at any point in the game. It learns powerful moves early on, and its stats are also pretty good still. I think that it might fall off a bit soon, but Raticate can get sword dance from the relearner, so who knows. Maybe it surprises with a good end game too.


Gloom: also great. It has well rounded stats and nice utility in stun spore and sleep powder. STAB specs sludge bomb is an absolute nuke, and very reliable as well. Coverage is bad though.

I looked into the pokegear mechanics a bit, and it seems like you can get calls for a rematch after the seventh gym. Some trainers only rematch when you call them on certain days. I want to test if you can reliably get the evolutionary stones as a gift from trainers. Seems like it might be better than wasting time on the Pokeathlon dome for certain Pokemon.


Hypno: this thing really lacks power. even it's STAB isn't very strong against most enemies. It does have good bulk though, and insomnia really helps in certain matchups. I hope that it gets some more good matchups, because I'm not too impressed by it so far.


Magneton: it's extraordinarily strong with specs. Electric/steel is an amazing typing as well. The only problem is that is has a really bland movepool with no coverage at all. This leaves it completely walled by any ground types. Still, it's just very strong.
 
I have a list of all Pokemon available in HGSS.

  • New Bark Town: Chikorita (G), Cyndaquil (G), Totodile (G)
    [*]Route 29: Rattata, Pidgey, Hoothoot, Sentret
    [*]Route 46: Spearow, Geodude
    [*]Route 30: Caterpie (HG), Metapod (HG), Weedle (SS), Kakuna (SS), Ledyba (SS), Spinarak (HG)
    [*]Dark Cave: Zubat, Dunsparce (Swarm)
    [*]Route 31: Bellsprout
    [*]Primo generator: Mareep (G), Wooper (G) or Slugma* (G)
    [*]Violet City: Onix (T)
    [*]Sprout Tower: Gastly
    [*]Route 32: Ekans (SS), Mareep, Wooper, Hoppip
    [*]Ruins of Alph Inside: Unown
    [*]Violet City (Gym 1): Togepi (G)
    [*]Old Rod
    [*]Anywhere: Magikarp
    [*]Violet City or Ruins of Alph: Poliwag
    [*]Route 32: Tentacool
    [*]Union Cave: Sandshrew (HG), Goldeen, Onix
    [*]Slowpoke Well: Slowpoke
    [*]Ilex Forest: Paras, Oddish, Heracross
    [*]Headbutt: Pineco, Exeggcute, Aipom
    [*]Route 34: Abra, Drowzee, Ditto, Krabby
    [*]Goldenrod City: Machop (T), Spearow (G)
    [*]Route 32 (Swarm): Qwilfish
    [*]Route 35: Nidoran F, Nidoran M, Yanma (Swarm)
    [*]National Park: Sunkern
    [*]Bug catching Contest: Caterpie, Metapod, Butterfree, Weedle, Kakuna, Beedrill, Venonat, Scyther, Pinsir
    [*]Route 36: Vulpix (SS), Growlthe (HG), Stantler
    [*]Route 36 (Gym 3): Sudowoodo (I)
    [*]Route 37: Pidgeotto
    [*]Goldenrod City (Ecruteak): Eevee (G)
    [*]Burned Tower: Raticate, Koffing, Magmar
    [*]Route 38: Magnemite, Snubbull, Meowth (SS), Tauros, Miltank, Farfetch’d
    [*]Olivine City: Voltorb (T), Staryu, Corsola
    [*]Mt. Mortar: Machop
    [*]Route 42: Flaaffy, Mankey (HG)
    [*]Route 43: Noctowl, Venonat, Girafarig
    [*]Lake Of Rage: Gyarados
    [*]Surf
    [*]Route 35: Psyduck, Golduck
    [*]Ecruteak City: Poliwhirl
    [*]Olivine City/Route 40: Tentacruel
    [*]Route 42: Seaking
    [*]Mt Mortar 1F: Marill (Swarm)
    [*]Slowpoke Well B1F: Slowbro
    [*]Union Cave: Golbat, Quagsire, lapras
    [*]Ruins of Alph Outside: Smeargle, Natu
    [*]Dark Cave II: Wobbuffet
    [*]Route 41: Shellder, Chinchou, Mantine
    [*]Cianwood City: Shuckle
    [*]Lake Of Rage: Red Gyarados (I)
    [*]Team Rocket HQ: Voltorb, Electrode
    [*]The Cliff Cave: Graveler, Machoke, Kingler, Misdreavus
    [*]Route 47: Seel
    [*]Route 48: Fearow, Diglett
    [*]Safari Zone: Clefairy, Jigglypuff, Arbok, Sandslash, Haunter, Skiploom, Gloom, Hypno, Nidorina, Nidorino, Magneton, Weezing, Grimer, Mr. Mime (CR 45), Lickitung (CR 45), Cubone, Marowak, Kangaskhan, Doduo, Rhyhorn, Murkrow, Dratini (CR 45), Larvitar (CR 45)
    [*]Whirl Islands: Horsea, Seadra
    [*]Route 44: Weepinbell, Remoraid (Swarm), Tangela
    [*]Ice Path: Jynx, Delibird, Swinub
    [*]Route 45: Gligar, Teddiursa (SS), Phanpy (HG), Skarmory
    [*]Bell Tower / Whirl Islands: Ho-Oh (HG) / Lugia (SS)
    [*]Mt. Mortar: Tyrogue (G)
    [*]Roaming Johto: Raikou, Entei
    [*]Route 27: Ponyta, Dodrio
    [*]Victory Road: Ursaring (SS), Donphan (HG)
    [*]Route 7: Houndour
    [*]Route 25: Suicune
    [*]Route 10: Electabuzz
    [*]Route 13/14/15: Chansey
    [*]Route 11: Snorlax
I believe that the Kanto Region should be included in the tier list. Although it doesn't have a lot of new Pokemon (the only important Pokemon thata re obtained in Kanto are Suicune and Snorlax and everyone else could go to E/F Tier without discussion) but for the following reasons:
  • Kanto includes a new set of 8 Gym Leaders Specially in HGSS, many of those Gym Leaders are more an actual threat than in GSC, having higher levels than Lance (Lt Surge 53, Sabrina 55, Erika 56, Misty 54, Janine 50, Brock 54, Blaine 59, Blue 60).
  • There's a lot of TMs that can only be found in the Kanto region. Specifically the TMs of Giga Drain, Psychic, Explosion, Stealth Rock (this one is buyable), Rock Slide, Poison Jab and Grass Knot are only available in Kanto. Also the TM of Flash Cannon not dependable of day of the week is found on Kanto. Also, in the Celadon City Dept. Store you can buy multiple copies of Taunt, Frustration, Return (not having to wait/set the time to Sunday), Dig, Avalanche and Dark Pulse. For example, Espeon has to rely on Psybeam until Level 64, which isn't likely to happen before Blue. However, with the TM on Saffron City, Espeon could use this TMs to sweep the Erika and Janine Gyms more easily.
  • A lot of Pokemon learn level-up moves until the 50s and even the 60s, some of them being upgrades to their movepools.
  • HG/SS is a game that includes Johto and Kanto. This is a key difference that is unique to HG/SS and GSC. In other games, we have the 8 Gym Leaders, the Elite 4 and the Champion. In these games, aprt from that, we have another set of 8 Gym Leaders and a Master Trainer Battle (Red). After defeating Red, you'll get into the credits like after defeating Lance. The game is designed to start in New Bark Town and end in Red.
  • There is a predecent of a agem having the National Pokedex before the main story has ended. In OR/AS you'll get the National Pokedex after wining the 8th Gym Leader (Wallace), and you fight pokemon not present in the Hoenn Pokedex at Victory Road. But int he ORAS Tier List they put a condition; only Pokemon with the Hoenn Pokedex will be tiered. in HG/SS, it means that Gen 3 and Gen 4 Pokemona re excluded from the game even if they were marginally viable to use through the Kanto segment of the game. In HG/SS it also means no Sinnoh evolutions, with the exceptions of Lickilicky, Tangrowth, Ambipom, Yanmega and Lickilicky; who are in the Johto Dex. In other words, no Rhyperior, Togekiss or gliscor (you can use it, but they don't count).
  • Battle Frontier Tms should be blacklisted because they are even more inneficient than Voltorb Flip.
 
I have a list of all Pokemon available in HGSS.

I believe that the Kanto Region should be included in the tier list. Although it doesn't have a lot of new Pokemon (the only important Pokemon thata re obtained in Kanto are Suicune and Snorlax and everyone else could go to E/F Tier without discussion) but for the following reasons:
  • Kanto includes a new set of 8 Gym Leaders Specially in HGSS, many of those Gym Leaders are more an actual threat than in GSC, having higher levels than Lance (Lt Surge 53, Sabrina 55, Erika 56, Misty 54, Janine 50, Brock 54, Blaine 59, Blue 60).
  • There's a lot of TMs that can only be found in the Kanto region. Specifically the TMs of Giga Drain, Psychic, Explosion, Stealth Rock (this one is buyable), Rock Slide, Poison Jab and Grass Knot are only available in Kanto. Also the TM of Flash Cannon not dependable of day of the week is found on Kanto. Also, in the Celadon City Dept. Store you can buy multiple copies of Taunt, Frustration, Return (not having to wait/set the time to Sunday), Dig, Avalanche and Dark Pulse. For example, Espeon has to rely on Psybeam until Level 64, which isn't likely to happen before Blue. However, with the TM on Saffron City, Espeon could use this TMs to sweep the Erika and Janine Gyms more easily.
  • A lot of Pokemon learn level-up moves until the 50s and even the 60s, some of them being upgrades to their movepools.
  • HG/SS is a game that includes Johto and Kanto. This is a key difference that is unique to HG/SS and GSC. In other games, we have the 8 Gym Leaders, the Elite 4 and the Champion. In these games, aprt from that, we have another set of 8 Gym Leaders and a Master Trainer Battle (Red). After defeating Red, you'll get into the credits like after defeating Lance. The game is designed to start in New Bark Town and end in Red.
  • There is a predecent of a agem having the National Pokedex before the main story has ended. In OR/AS you'll get the National Pokedex after wining the 8th Gym Leader (Wallace), and you fight pokemon not present in the Hoenn Pokedex at Victory Road. But int he ORAS Tier List they put a condition; only Pokemon with the Hoenn Pokedex will be tiered. in HG/SS, it means that Gen 3 and Gen 4 Pokemona re excluded from the game even if they were marginally viable to use through the Kanto segment of the game. In HG/SS it also means no Sinnoh evolutions, with the exceptions of Lickilicky, Tangrowth, Ambipom, Yanmega and Lickilicky; who are in the Johto Dex. In other words, no Rhyperior, Togekiss or gliscor (you can use it, but they don't count).
  • Battle Frontier Tms should be blacklisted because they are even more inneficient than Voltorb Flip.
It’s been established in the list that there is no Kanto. DHR made his ruling here on the matter after much debate.
 
Raticate (31): Return almost gets Seel in red, which makes Pryce waste his potion. Iron tail comes really close to 2HKO'ing Piloswine, but this is unreliable and the sitrus berry turns it into a 3HKO anyway. Return is more reliable, probably. Return also comes really close to 2HKO'ing Dewgong. Overall, decent matchup, but it lacks just a little bit of power to reliably get 2HKO's.

Gloom (31): specs mega drain 2HKO's Seel and it 3HKO's Dewgong and Piloswine. Gloom takes very high damage from all of Pryce's Pokemon of course, but it heals back a lot with mega drain as well. It beats Seel and Dewgong fairly reliably, but Piloswine's blizzard is too strong for Gloom to handle. I'm sure that Vileplume would be really good here, because Gloom is already quite decent.

Hypno (30): Seel is absolutely not threatning at all, so you can freely set up six meditates. From there you DON'T OHKO Seel with drain punch, which I find kind of pathetic at +6. It does OHKO Piloswine and Dewgong though, so it's all good. Great matchup overall.

Magneton (30): it absolutely destroys Seel and Dewgong with thunder, but it loses hard to Piloswine. All-right matchup overall.

Raticate (37): you can set up two swords dances on Gyarados. From there, you simply outspeed and OHKO all of Clair's Pokemon. You don't even need a fodder for intimidate. Very impressive

Vileplume (37): specs sludge bomb 2HKO's everything, but everything outspeeds it too. You can use sunny day to outspeed her mons, but then you lack power because you can't run specs anymore. You would need really good luck with sleep powder to do well in this matchup. Mediocre and inconsistant matchup overall.

Hypno (36): specs psybeam doesn't even 2HKO the Dragonairs. You can still dual them fairly well because of Hypno's massive special bulk. Gyarados is a no go and Kingdra doesn't take much damage from Hypno's attacks. Mediocre matchup.

Magneton (36): thunder OHKO's Gyarados, unsurprisingly. The Dragonair with fire blast and Kingdra ouspeed and OHKO Magneton. The other Dragonair can be beaten with some luck on thunder. Pretty bad overall.

I have an update about the evolution stone thing that I wanted to test. It's true that you can get rematches at will after saving the radio tower. However, if you call one of the trainers that can give you evolution stones, they will rematch you instead of giving you the stone you want. So needless to say, I had to rely on the Pokeathlon Dome for the leaf stone anyway. Kind of dissapointing.

Also, Raticate is steadily heading towards an A nomination, which I realise might be a bit of a hot take for such a seemingly average mon. A reliable sweep against Clair is extremely impressive. I can see it sweeping Will and Bruno as well, so I'm eager to find out if it can live up to that expectation.
 

Ryota Mitarai

Shrektimus Prime
is a Smogon Media Contributor
Team: Hypno(36), Tauros(36), Granbull(37), Kingler(37)

Hypno: can at most beat one Dragonair by spamming Specs Psybeam, but it's gonna take some time due to heal spam and it being a 3HKO.
Tauros: 2HKOs Dragonair with Return. Due to para, you need to heal to take out both Dragonair
Granbull: read above
Kingler: can only take out one Dragonair, as Dragon Pulse is a 2HKO.


everything is level 40

Hypno: Specs Psybeam OHKOs Golbat and Haunter
Tauros: incredibly good. Outspeeds everything and OHKOs Kadabra and Sneasel with Return, Magneton with EQ, and almost OHKOs Haunter with Payback. Golbat is 2HKOed and barely deals damage. Only Gatr proves problematic, though for Typhlosion, you can potentially beat Typhlosion by 2HKOing it with EQ.
Granbull: Return OHKOs Sneasel and Kadabra, 2HKOs Golbat, Bite OHKOs Haunter, Dig OHKOs Magneton and Return 3HKOs Feraligatr. You will need to heal at least once to take down majority of them one after another.
Kingler: Return 2HKOs Sneasel and Golbat (though for Golbat, you need to be at full health) and Dig OHKOs Magneton. It will also OHKO Kadabra, but you need to be at full to not die to Psybeam


Everything is level 43

Hypno: Specs Shadow Ball 2HKOs everything. Avoid first Xatu due to Me First. Slowbro has Amnesia, so pray for SpD drops
Tauros: Return 2HKOs everything bar Slowbro, with Jynx being OHKOed. Fire Blast also 2HKOs Exeggutor if it sets up Reflect. You are likely taking out Xatu 1 and Jynx without healing offscreen.
Granbull: the only notable thing it does here is OHKO Jynx with Return, but it's outsped and 2HKOed by most things, with Slowbro being... Slowbro
Kingler: bad, everything 2HKOs it and Kingler cannot beat anything.


Everything is level 43

Hypno: Specs Psybeam OHKOs Ariados and 2HKOs the other Poison-types. If lucky, you won't have to heal at all.
Tauros: Good matchup. Return 2HKOs Venomoth and Ariados, EQ 2HKOs Muk, and Fire Blast OHKOs Forretress. Return 3HKOs Crobat, but it's not worth doing.
Granbull: Not a bad matchup. Return 2HKOs Venomoth, Muk, and Ariados, though the former two are somewhat luck based. Crobat can be Charmed and thus rented useless. Forry can be OHKOed by Fire Blast if you have it (in place of Bite or Dig, I don't really use any of those here).
Kingler: Not a good matchup, even Ariados 2HKOs it with Giga Drain and it doesn't take out anything


Hypno is level 44, rest is 43

Hypno: Specs Psybeam 2HKOs everything (bar Machamp, which is 3HKOed due to berry), though you will have to heal in order to take down everything
Tauros: Very good matchup. Return 2HKOs Hitmonchan and Hitmontop. For Hitmontop, spam Fire Blast or Tail Whip and use EQ when it uses Dig (this is to avoid Counter). Lee is OHKOed by Return and Onix is 2HKOed by EQ. It outspeeds all of those. Machamp isn't a winnable matchup, needless to say.
Granbull: beats Hitmontop and Chan by 2HKOing them with Return. Onix is also 2HKOed by EQ.
Kingler: beats only Onix by OHKOing with Surf. Rest is either Hitmontop that likes to Counter or they outspeed and 2HKO it.


Tauros is level 44, rest is same level

Hypno: Specs Psybeam deals with Gengar and Vileplume
Tauros: crushes Murkrow and Vileplume, also dents Houndoom hard by dealing a lot of damage with EQ. Umbreon is 3HKOed by Return, but Double Team. Gengar OHKOs with Focus Blast.
Granbull: EQ OHKOs Houndoom (it sets up NP) and Return OHKOs Murkrow
Kingler: beats only Murkrow...


levels are the same

Hypno: does nothing really
Tauros: Unfortunately, it doesn't beat anything
Granbull: the most reliable thing on my team for him. Charm + Intimidate will force all DNites to use their inaccurate coverage, which can be exploited by Granbull by 2HKOing the DNites with Ice Fang (not minding the Sitrus Berry) or it can be exploited by teammates. However, keep in mind Granbull is 2HKOed by their special coverage. Still, Granbull actually does something against Lance, so I am giving it bonus points here
Kingler: :(


Nominations:

Drowzee -> C
A worse Girafarig / Kadabra, tbh. It takes some time to beat stuff and the lack of Psychic does affect its E4 performance, as it fails to OHKO Koga and Bruno's stuff. I think C-tier is appropriate

Tauros -> B
Fast, hits hard with Return, and has Intimidate. 4% encounter hurts if you wanna use it as early as possible, but it's mitigated by having one of the strongest performances against Morty without being a Psychic-type. Not to mention it can even run special coverage, if you want to. EQ def improves its matchups at the end-game, too.

Snubbull -> B
Yeah, yeah, 1% encounter blah blah blah, but Charm makes this a good utility and it hits harder than Tauros (in addition to being caught in a Friend Ball much easier). It's also worth mentioning Snubbull levels up fast, which is a good bonus it has over Tauros. Its E4 matchup is slightly worse than Tauros, but having amazing utility against Lance just solidified its placement in B-tier. Also takes out Karen's Houndoom, which is notable.

Krabby -> D
Yeah, not a C-tier material. At least Drowzee didn't have that many issues. Krabby not only has a hard time using its STAB moves due to terrible SpA, but it's also really frail on the special side, which most of the game composes of. So yeah, please go into D-tier, thank you

Turdterra what else needs some testing?
 
Raticate (40): Xatu always goes for confuse ray on turn 1, so you have to hold a persim berry to set up swords dance safely. Xatu usually just uses psychic on turn 2, so you can set up another swords dance. You outspeed and OHKO everything with crunch after the setup. Great matchup.

Vileplume (40): sludge bomb OHKO's Exeggutor. You can win against Slowbro if you hit sleep powder. The Xatu's and Jynx outspeed and 2HKO with psychic, so Vileplume just can't deal with them. Mediocre matchup.

Hypno (40): specs shadow ball 2HKO's everything and Hypno tanks hits very well. You might need a potion, but it's a good matchup nonetheless.

Magneton (40): It OHKO's the Xatu's with discharge. You need either thunder or specs to OHKO Slowbro as well. Jynx is annoying because of lovely kiss, but you can 2HKO her with magnet bomb. Exeggutor outdamages you because he resists discharge. Overall, good matchup, mostly thanks to a psychic resistance, though you do need a potion or two.

Raticate (41): I thought this matchup would be mediocre at first, because Forretress resists return and Crobat outspeeds. It wasn't mediocre however, because Forretress actually helps you set up by using protect and t-spikes.

Set up swords dance on Ariados and KO it with return on the following turn. Set up another swords dance on Forretress and use a potion to prevent Crobat from taking you out. At +4 even Forretress is 2HKO by return. From there you can sweep.

Vileplume (40): absolutely terrible. It can't hit anything for even neutral damage, and Venomoth and Crobat have super effective damage. Just useless.

Hypno (40):
specs psybeam 2HKO's everything but Forretress. Then again, Forretress can't do anything back either. Good matchup, though you migtht need a potion.

Magneton (40): it utterly walls Koga's entire team, so you're free to spam specs discharge. Very good matchup.

Raticate (41): You can easily set up 3 swords dances on Hitmontop because it wastes turns on counter and dig. You outspeed and OHKO everything, HOWEVER, Onix cucks you with earthquake if you try to use dig. So you just have to use crunch and tank the earthquake instead. Either way, great matchup.

Vileplume (40): Kind of a risky matchup. Solarbeam 2HKO everything (it's a OHKO on Onix), but you have to rely on sleep powder a lot to actually get your solarbeams out. That is because Vileplume doesn't like taking sun boosted blaze kicks and fire punches. So overall, it's actually quite mediocre for a fighting resist, but it's not completely terrible either.

Hypno (40): specs psybeam 2HKO's everything, but everything also outspeeds Hypno. That means that you have to use a lot of potions to get through this fight. It's allright overall, but Hypno's low speed really lets it down here.

Magneton (41): everything outspeeds and has super effective coverage against you. You can get just one discharge off with a chople or shuca berry. Just terrible.

Raticate (41/44): return OHKO's Umbreon after two swords dances. This is a bit inconsistant because of double team and confuse ray, but impressive nonetheless. Gengar outspeeds and OHKO's with focus blast, so you have to use a chople berry to survive and KO with crunch. On my first test, Houndoom also outsped me and he ended the sweep. The second time around, I used some rare candies to increase Raticate's speed. This allowed it to outspeed and OHKO Houndoom with dig and clean up with return. Great matchup, but not entirely consistant.

Vileplume (40): once again, everything resists its STABS. Specs sludge bomb 3HKO's Umbreon, and you can take on Gengar because it has terrible coverage. You can duel with the opposing Vileplume fairly well, but Karen's one carries moonlight. Mediocre matchup.

Hypno (41): it can deal with Gengar and Vileplume with specs psybeam, but it's absolutely useless anywhere else. Mediocre matchup.

Magneton (41): specs discharge is a 3HKO on Umbreon, but it's likely that you end up parfusing yourself through synchonise, which makes this duel against Umbreon very luck based. Magneton easily beats Murkrow, and it can somewhat duel with Vileplume as well. Houndoom and Gengar outspeed and OHKO Magneton. Decent-ish matchup.

Raticate (44): I really tried to make the sweep work, but Raticates stats are just not good enough here. It can't take more than one waterfall from Gyarados, so you can only set up one swords dance, which isn't enough to sweep. Even with two swords dances, you just barely fail to OHKO the ace Dragonite, so you would need three boosts. That's just not achievable without some major support.

Raticate can also run a really dumb specs boltbeam strat with blizzard and thunder, which 2HKO's all of Lance's Pokemon, so that's fun. Overall, Raticate is not even that bad in this matchup, but it's unfortunate that it can't sweep reliably.

Vileplume (41):
oh gee, everything resists solarbeam again. useless.

Hypno (41):
much too weak to do anything here.

Magneton (42):
It can OHKO both Gyarados and Aerodactyl with specs discharge. It can also take a hit from the Dragonite that doesn't have fire blast, and support with thunder wave or discharge. Not too bad for a Lance matchup.

And that concludes my little team Rocket theme team. Here are my noms.


Rattata -> A tier

Pros:
comes early, great movepool, great speed tier, no bad matchups, plenty of really good matchups (it sweeps the ENTIRE E4), swords dance is just amazing
Cons: frail

Oh boy, I didn't expect this from Raticate of all things, but it's borderline S-tier material. It's consistantly very strong and fast. Guts is nice to have for route clearing, and you can cheese some important fights with it if you want. Its late game performance is shockingly good thanks to swords dance. Seriously, this thing is very impressive and it has only one flaw in its frailty, which doesn't really matter for the most part.


Oddish (Vileplume) -> C tier

Pros:
well-rounded stats, STAB sludge bomb, sleep powder
Cons: requires leaf stone to evolve, terrible coverage, many weaknesses, bad late game

I hoped it would be a bit better, but it just completely fell apart at the E4. STAB sludge bomb is extremely powerful in the mid game, and it also has sleep powder to suppress dangerous Pokemon. Its low speed and bad coverage hold it back though. By the time you get access to sunnybeam, that strat isn't viable because almost the entire E4 + Lance resist grass. I still think it's a good mid-tier though.


Drowzee -> C tier

Pros:
great typing, amazing special bulk, insomnia is quite useful
Cons: lack of power (especially in its STAB), mediocre movepool, mostly meh matchups

I wasn't very impressed by this thing, but when you actually look back at its matchups, it's not terrible. Hypno gets hard carried by its typing and the accessibility of specs. It's utterly mediocre without a type or level advantage though, but the prevelance of poison types keep it relevant. Its E4 matchups are also quite decent.


Magnemite -> B tier

Pros:
amazing typing, very strong, surprisingly good bulk (mostly thanks to its typing)
Cons: extremely limited movepool, no strong, spammable STAB until lv 40, endlessly walled by ground types

Specs thunder from a Magneton is one of the most powerful moves in the game. Its steel typing is incredibly good for countering all the annoying poison types in the game. The main problem is that it has a terribly bland movepool that makes it a very one dimensional Pokemon. I think its power and typing are enough to secure a B tier spot though.
 
Final writeups and thoughts on each of my party members:
Typhlosion: It won't be able to get past the Feraligatr. Otherwise, this is a decent matchup.
Ampharos: Even with a Choice Specs, the low speed will have gradually get worn down by faster members like Sneasel, Kadabra and Haunter. Therefore preventing it from getting a sweep.
Umbreon: A similar affair to Ampharos; the low speed will prevent it from sweeping Silver's team. However, the low attack power, even with Dark Pulse, won't allow it to get as far as Ampharos in the fight.
Crobat: As before, it will not be able to beat the Magneton. It can beat Haunter, Kadabra, and if you picked Totodile, Meganium well enough though.
Typhlosion: There's no chance for it to get past the Slowbro. It can get past the Exeggutor, Jynx and the first Xatu easily though.
Ampharos: It won't be able to stop Exeggutor or Jynx. The latter in particular can just use Lovely Kiss, then take it down with its STAB moves.
Umbreon: Decent matchup, but it may not be able to beat both Xatu in the roster.
Crobat: Even the first Xatu will be able to OHKO it.
Typhlosion: Mostly a good matchup, but the Muk will wall it even if the Earthquake TM was taught to it.
Ampharos: Has the bulk to perform a sweep against him.
Umbreon: Forretess will easily wall it, and the other team members can all get a chance to Poison it.
Crobat: As with Umbreon, it won't be able to get past most of the bulkier team members.
Typhlosion: It can almost sweep the team, even the Onix with two Fire Blasts, but it won't be able to beat his Machamp.
Ampharos: Not a good matchup as both the Hitmontop and the Onix know Ground-type moves. Meanwhile, Machamp is bulky enough to survive one STAB move and can use Cross Chop to make short work of it.
Umbreon: Hitmontop, Hitmonlee and Machamp all know strong Fighting-type moves to take care of it.
Crobat: The only team member which it can beat is Hitmonlee. Even the Hitmontop can stop it cold with Counter.
Typhlosion: While this should be a stellar matchup, Umbreon is too weak, Vileplume is weak to Fire, and Murkrow is frail, the Gengar can outspeed and 2HKO it with Focus Blast.
Ampharos: Houndoom can outspeed and OHKO it after setting up a Nasty Plot. Vileplume can also will it easily. While it can beat Murkow, Night Shade can be used to bring it down for something else to finish off.
Umbreon: Without items, Karen's own Umbreon will win the mirror match. Gengar and Houndoom can also take care of it with their strong offensive moves.
Crobat: Her Umbreon will be able to wall it, and it can serve as setup fodder for the Houndoom.
Typhlosion: Charizard is the main team member which it can hope to defeat. It's easily walled and defeated by everything else.
Ampharos: It has a good matchup on paper, but the three Dragonite can outspeed and beat it with their STAB Dragon-type moves.
Umbreon: Although it has the bulk to stomach a couple of the STAB from the Dragonite trio, it can't do much to defeat anyone in return. Meaning that it will eventually get defeated by the tougher members which it's supposed to wall.
Crobat: It lacks strong moves which it can use to beat the team. Outrage and Dragon Rush from the Dragonite trio will do more to Crobat than it can with Cross Poison and Fly.
Thoughts on the team overall.

Typhlosion: It leaves more of an impression in the earlier stages. Being able to solo the forced Sprout Tower visit means that it will be overleveled for the first gym. Being to beat the second gym on its own makes up for a rather slow Union Cave trip; especially considering how the Scyther can be troublesome for some players. Fire Blast being available at the Department Store means that it can take on Whitney without trouble as well. While it's able to take care of most wild Pokemon and route trainers with both Flame Wheel, which will eventually get replaced with Lava Plume and Fire Blast, the low defences gradually catch up with on the later gyms. The shallow movepool outside of Fire-type attacks can cause to become unfavourable in some matchups. Rock Tomb may seem like an interesting move which other Pokemon aren't necessarily competing for, it just isn't strong enough to stop the likes of Archer's Houndoom. Earthquake seems interesting in the late game, but not only is it a move with high demand, but Typhlosion doesn't have the Attack stat to make use of it, and other Pokemon may want it instead. That being said though, the safety net which it offers in the early game is enough to justify its S placement.

Ampharos: Being able to be caught before Falkner does it several favours, even if it does learn Thundershock later than what would've been nice. Thankfully, Static can be a useful ability to fall back on when some bosses favour contact moves; meaning that it can be useful even during the times when everyone is spamming Tackle. The low speed can be a problem at times, especially in the latter stages of the game. Thankfully it has the bulk to take on opponents which other Special Attacks would struggle with. Said bulk can also allow the Mareep line to risk Thunder and Focus Blast misses when the Department Store rolls along. While the slowness and the dependence on Electric-type attacks can cause its matchups to be inconsistent in the earlier parts, it can easily steamroll most of the mid-game when Water- and Flying-types are favoured by the mobs. It was 'Top Tier' in the original tier list, which translates to A in this one. I wouldn't hesitate to say that Ampharos is worthy of being placed in the A tier.

Umbreon: Coming at Level 5 rather than 20 in the original stings: it's much farther away from Bite this time around. Meaning that it's helpless against its first couple of major battles. In general, Umbreon's placement is unfortunate. It's unlikely to be an Umbreon before Morty, and it will become when the next three important fights are against a Fighting-type user, a Steel-type user, and someone who's strategy depends on Blizzard spam. The low attacking stats mean that it will eventually get outdamaged by most major opponents; even those where it should have a more neutral matchup. Synchronise can't even be used to stop most opponents as the main forms of status which will be used are either by Poison-types, or those who are immune to the Sleep status, like Chuck's Poliwrath. The low attacking stats also don't mesh well with the weak stab which it will be depending on until Victory Road. I'm convinced that this is a more viable choice in Kanto: where there are more Psychic-type Pokemon, and there's more room to use stronger STAB moves. Even then though, Kanto doesn't count for this tier list. I wouldn't hesitate to put Umbreon in D.

Crobat: I wouldn't say that this is the B-tier Pokemon which the old tier list suggested. I'd say that it's a low C at best. While it comes early, and the speed means that it can stop some major opponents from setting up their more troublesome strategies, it doesn't learn that many good attacks until Cross Poison; which even then has an opportunity cost as there is only one set Heart Scale in Johto. While Fly has a base power of 95, it comes with the issue of moves like Wing Attack outdamaging it in the two turns. Even when it gets Cross Poison though, it will be at a point where opponents like Clair, Lance and Will will be banking on stronger attacks, and the likes of Koga and Karen can easily wall it. I'd strongly suggest catching Zubat later in the game as Leech Life and Astonish will not be helpful during the earlier stages. As it will be taking up experience, I'd dare say that it hinders teams before it gets Bite and Wing Attack. If you did get it as early as possible though, it can net you a better matchup on Morty; as you'd probably have a Golbat by then, and it would've gathered some Happiness to become a Crobat sooner.
 
I'm starting another run because I have nothing better to do. I plan on using Totodile, Togepi, Aipom and Cubone.

Totodile (15): bite almost OHKO's Pidgey. It's about a 3HKO on Pidgeotto (my Toto was a bit overlevelled though). You can use scary face to outspeed Pidgeotto and break through roost spam with a bite flinch. Good matchup.

Croconaw (18): it can tank Scyther's attacks quite well. Bite is a 5HKO when you count in sitrus berry, so you do need some support to beat it. Scary face is useful if Scyther is the only Pokemon left. Croc also beats the cocoons without trouble, but that's not too much of an accomplishment. Overall, decent matchup

Togepi (18):
not bad at all, actually. Charm is incredibly useful for Scyther, and coupled with Togepi's good bulk, you can easily survive even multiple u-turns. Yawn can further disrupt Scyther and buy you some time to gamble on metronome. Extrasensory OHKO's Kakuna, and it 2HKO's metapod. Overall, decent matchup.

Croconaw (21): it 3HKO's Clefairy. It's totally ineffective against Miltank though, because it just can't deal enough damage. Scary face is nice support though, and if you have a teammate that can lower Miltanks defence (like leer Kenya), you can try to get through milk drink spam with bite flinches. Overall, it's all-right.

Togepi (21): the fight against Clefairy is kind of slow and ineffecient, but winnable. Togepi completely shuts Miltank down with charm, which is great. It can't break through on its own though, not without some great metronome luck anyway. Overall, it's very useful here, but not effecient.

Aipom (15): It can beat Clefairy fairly reliably with tickle and scratch. Tickle is very useful against Miltank as well, but it's not enough to beat Miltank solo. Overall, decent matchup.

Croconaw is doing fine. It's not all that powerful in terms of damage though, mostly because it doesn't have a good STAB yet.

Togepi surprised me with how not terrible it is. In fact, extrasensory is very strong so early on, and charm is incredibly useful in important fights. Metronome is really fun to use, although very unreliable of course. I even managed to fling away my shell bell. oops... But yeah, it's stats aren't as bad as I expected.

I haven't used Aipom all that much, so I can't say too much about it either. Tickle seems nice though, and it was useful against Whitney.
 
At this point, I think this needs to be called. I am blacklisting the GC TMs. Every nom that has been questionable/inflated has had a mon with a GC TM. We are under the assumption that the player is playing on the cartridge. These take hours to get and you can just go and get the more powerful yet inaccurate versions of them. I have updated the OP to show this change.
I feel like getting the Zoom or Wide Lens through the Game Corner makes for a far less daunting task(1000 instead of 10000) and may offer enough of a boon to Blizzard/Thunder/Fire Blast to be worth it. I usually do this in my casual runs, dunno if it would be feasible in a more optimal setting.
 

Ryota Mitarai

Shrektimus Prime
is a Smogon Media Contributor
I am gonna start a run with Rattata / Chinchou / Miltank / Sudowoodo soon. The nom to A for Rattata surprised me and I want to see for myself how it performs.

I want to make some comments on some things posted:

That being said though, the safety net which it offers in the early game is enough to justify its S placement.
I don't think a Pokemon should be S-tier for performing perfectly in just one part of the game. S-tiers are generally consistent throughout the game and you highlighted facts that prove it's not consistent enough for S-tier. Now, if it were to do well against Lance, I'd see S-tier, because the battle is absurd and pmuch gives an automatic rise in a tier. So I think A-tier is more appropriate (A is still really good, it shouldn't be seen as a bad thing. S is just for Pokemon that are incredibly consistent, for most parts (read the part I said about Lance for an exception)).

I feel like getting the Zoom or Wide Lens through the Game Corner makes for a far less daunting task(1000 instead of 10000) and may offer enough of a boon to Blizzard/Thunder/Fire Blast to be worth it. I usually do this in my casual runs, dunno if it would be feasible in a more optimal setting.
Wide Lens's accuracy boost is rather negligible (only 1.1). Thunder, a 70% accuracy, becomes only 77%, which is not a huge improvement by far. Same thing for Blizzard. Fire Blast sees more improvement, as it becomes 93%. However, most Fire-types prefer using Charcoal in order to boost its damage even more. Regardless, Pokemon like Quilava still face the problem of being punished hard if they miss (Morty and Chuck's Primeape come to mind) so the root problem is still here.

Zoom Lens isn't gonna be effective for most Pokemon, as it only works if you move after the target. Unless your mon is incredibly slow, it's not very likely it's going to get the accuracy boost.
 
Croconaw (25): it OHKO's Gastly with bite. Both of the haunters outspeed it though, and I the lv 23 one survives a bite. And I have a lv 25 perfect speed iv Croconaw too. Gengar outspeeds and 2HKO's with shadow ball, and it's only 3HKO'd with bite if you factor in the sitrus berry. Overall, it's decent-ish, but not great, like most of Croconaw's matchups.

Togepi (25): it OHKO's ghastly with extrasensory. It usally beats at least one of the Haunters because they like to go for curse. The dream eater one can be a problem if you don't use an awakening though. Togepi completely walls Gengar by being immune to shadow ball. Great matchup.

Aipom (25): it outspeeds and OHKO's the Ghastly and both Haunters with shadow claw. It also walls and 3HKO's Gengar. Great matchup.

Feraligatr (31): surf 2HKO's Primeape. Poliwrath totally walls you though. I have a moveset of crunch, ice fang, surf and agility, and I feel like it's not worth giving up any of these moves for a better matchup against Chuck. Even if you have room for return, it's only a 4HKO against Poliwrath at best. Mediocre matchup.

Togetic (31): specs extrasensory OHKO's Primeape. It almost 2HKO's Poliwrath, but almost is not enough of course. Togetic can take three surfs though, so as long as Poliwrath doesn't land a hypnosis, you're fine. Charm and yawn can make Poliwrath easier, but then you can't run specs to OHKO Primeape. Bit inconsistant, but good matchup.

Aipom (30): return 2HKO's Primeape. It's a 4HKO on Poliwrath, not counting the sitrus berry. It likes to spam focus punch though, so with some luck you can actually avoid getting hit at all. One of those inconsistant, but winnable matchup.

Cubone (23): underlevelled, I know, but I had very few trainers to train it on. Even so, it managed to easily 2HKO Primeape with bonemerang. Poliwrath OHKO's it with surf though. Mediocre matchup.

Feraligatr (31): specs surf OHKO's all of her mons. First major sweep in a while, finally.

Togetic (31): specs fire blast OHKO's all of her mons, but the second Magnemite outspeeds you. Togetic should live one thunderbolt though. It's a good matchup, but a little inconsistant because of fire blast accuracy.

Aipom (30): it beats the Magnemites with dig, but Steelix is too bulky to break through. Decent-ish matchup.

I didn't really feel like doing the team rocket hideout before tackling Jasmine, so I grinded up Cubone on some of the nearby Tentacruel until it evolved. I don't recommend this in general though, because the rocket hideout is the perfect opportunity to train Cubone.

Marowak (28): absolutely trashes both of the Magnemites with bonemerang, of course. It barely fails to get a 2HKO on Steelix, and iron tail + iron tail and screech + iron tail OHKO Marowak. This still gives you quite a good chance, because iron tail is inaccurate. I'm sure Marowak would reliably solo this gym if I acually took the time to properly level it.

I just want to mention that getting Cubone is very frustrating. Not only do you need to catch a Butterfree for compoundeyes (to increase the chance of getting a Cubone with a thick club), you also need to complete the two challenges Baoba gives you. For the first one, you just have to catch a Geodude, which isn't too bad. However, to unlock the second challenge (a.k.a. the zone switcher), you have to wait three in-game hours. This is three ours of playtime too, so you can't use time manipulation tricks. It also is very underlevelled at catch, but so is everything in Johto tbh. I think this is definitely going to impact my nomination.
 
From past experience, as I'm not really playing HGSS anymore.

Typhlosion - Borderline A/S: It has Fire Blast accuracy issues until E4, but it only really needs to use it in major fights. Also has Clair/Lance issues but hardly anything doesn't.

Feraligatr - S: Surf doesn't really fall off until after the Waterfall HM is available and it gets good enough coverage for everything pre-Kanto.

Graveler (No Trade) - Borderline B/A: Its earlygame is amazing but it falls off hard at Morty and you start noticing its Speed against normal trainers which is not great. Still does something against later fights, but probably optimal to just drop it after Whitney.

Dunsparce - C: It's not really feasible to catch one until after you can Rock Smash, at which point it's an 80% encounter. Its movepool sucks until the Headbutt tutor, but at Goldenrod it picks up Return and Fire Blast and tears through a lot of the midgame. Still decent lategame.

Onix (No Trade) - B?: It's basically just a Geodude (albeit with traded EXP, which doesn't really matter that much in my experience) until Morty when it becomes somehow even more useless. It's probably the single best mon for the first three gyms though, so I feel like that's worth something.

Victreebel - C: Though the Leaf Stone is a bit of a detour, Bellsprout starts destroying everything the moment it evolves. Unfortunately its moves are a bit weak for endgame and Grass is not the best typing in Johto, especially early-game.

Heracross - S: Basically what everyone said before.

Lapras - B: Relatively late and is a detour, but is solid all-around and has good matchups. Could be A if the detour isn't considered too bad.

Dragonair - B: Comes at a pretty good level and starts destroying everything right away with Dragon Rage. 2100 coins in the Game Corner is honestly nothing and if you're good at Voltorb Flip and not too unlucky should take like 5 minutes at most (even less if you know how to manipulate secondary RNG, but that's a different topic) making it essentially a gift Pokemon. It evolves not long after Dragon Rage falls off and Dragonair's movepool carries it until Blackthorn, where you can trade it for a Dodrio for the endgame (if it's female).

Scyther (No Trade) - B/C?: A pain to catch, especially for Technician, but it gets Wing Attack shortly after and that's the only move it'll really ever click. Its only real bad matchup is Jasmine (Pryce is easy if you went to the Game Corner for Swords Dance) unless you have really bad attack in which case you might die to Chuck? (never happened to me) It would easily be S if it was easy to catch so I don't know how much we're penalizing that.

Granbull - whereever Entei is: It's a huge pain to get, to where I've had easier times catching the legendary dogs than getting a Snubbull, hence the ranking. It is quite good when you do get it, between Headbutt, Return, Fire Blast, eventually Earthquake, and Intimidate does help, though finding one with Intimidate is even harder.

Dugtrio - D: It's fairly late, is a 4% encounter, and is really frail. It's got one of the most powerful Earthquakes in Johto though, shame about its matchups.

Azumarill/Marowak - D: For the Safari Zone encounters, I'm assuming you're going west first. In that case these two get a chance to level up against Team Rocket and their Pryce/Jasmine matchups are actually pretty good, respectively. (I am not considering Mt. Mortar Marill because that is too rare and does not gain any major battles compared to Safari Zone Marill)

Kangaskhan/Pupitar/Misdreavus/Murkrow - E: They're like Azu/Wak without the good matchups. The latter three can't evolve until Kanto. I suspect most of the rest of the Safari Zone fits here, but I don't have experience with those mons.
 
I don't think a Pokemon should be S-tier for performing perfectly in just one part of the game. S-tiers are generally consistent throughout the game and you highlighted facts that prove it's not consistent enough for S-tier. Now, if it were to do well against Lance, I'd see S-tier, because the battle is absurd and pmuch gives an automatic rise in a tier. So I think A-tier is more appropriate (A is still really good, it shouldn't be seen as a bad thing. S is just for Pokemon that are incredibly consistent, for most parts (read the part I said about Lance for an exception)).
Going back over my look on the Cyndaquil line, yeah it sounds more like I'm discussing something for A-tier. I'd dare even say that Ampharos contributed more to the run than it did after Goldenrod. A it is. If I wasn't fatigued from doing the last efficiency run, I'd give Totodile a look too to see if this list warrants an S-tier.
 
Just finished the E4 with the following team; Ampharos, Magmar, Meganium, Pidgeot, Politoed and Girafarig. Opinions of them as follow;

Ampharos A
At no point during my run-through did I feel that Ampharos was dead weight or underlevelled, although towards the end of his stage as Flaaffy I definitely felt the low power of Thundershock holding him back. I delayed evolution by a level to ensure he started life as an Ampharos with Discharge which turned him back into a nuke especially with a Magnet held. Levels up quickly and evolves quickly. Perhaps the only thing I disliked about Amphy was his lack of coverage, he relied on Headbutt and Discharge for the majority of the game until he got Signal Beam (late!) but even then Bug isn't a brilliant coverage move. I tend to found Pokémon that I would use Signal Beam on were weak defensively and I used Headbutt instead which comes off of a respectable attack stat. Bit slow as well but the things you'd use him against tend to be slow anyway.

Magmar B
I'm perhaps being harsh here. He took forever to show up and has to make do with Ember for a significant amount of time until he gets Fire Punch. You can teach him Fire Blast to help with the more durable foes, I opted not to do that admittedly which may distort my opinion of him. He's fast and hits hard but doesn't have many tools to do so; I had Ember, Headbutt, Faint Attack and Confuse Ray for a long time and replaced Confuse Ray with Fire Punch when I got it for a bigger hit. I think the biggest issue for him is the lack of coverage, in Gold/Silver he had Fire Punch, Thunderpunch and Headbutt straight away which held true right through the game, whereas in HGSS he's not got that luxury. Perhaps I'm comparing him too much to his Gen 2 self.

Meganium low B / high C
"Never really excels, but never lets you down" is probably the way I'd describe Meganium. She has limitations but if you accept that she won't do you much wrong. I went through the game with Headbutt, Magical Leaf, Synthesis and Reflect/Petal Dance and I thought that whilst she had match-ups which you just have to avoid, there weren't many of them. Avoid using her against Faulkner, Bugsy and Morty, as well as a chunk of the Team Rocket arc, but the rest of the time she was relied on. Helped massively against Whitney with Reflect, Poisonpowder and Synthesis (and being female). I'd be more leaning towards C because the latter stages of Bayleaf felt like it took forever, although with Petal Dance she became spamable against neutral Pokémon, as well as the lack of effectiveness against the Rocket leaders.

Pidgeot D
Sorely wants stronger attacks. He started out brilliantly, leveled quickly via Sprout Tower and took Faulker on, destroyed Bugsy and played his part against Whitney with Sand Attack and then.. lost all effectiveness. It took until Chuck to get a decent flying move and was fortunate that I started over a weekend to allow me to get Return for it, otherwise it'd have been relying on Gust and Quick Attack until Level 38 as a Pidgeot when it gets Wing Attack (or until you get Fly). The thing it has going for him is that he'll carry you through the first part of the game up to Morty and will likely be overleveled as a result, but then falls off of a cliff. I had an Adamant one too, and past Goldenrod never really OHKO'd anything with super effective attacks.

Politoed (Poliwag w/trade) high C / low B
Another Pokémon that has limitations but if you play to his strengths won't let you down. I found that just as he started to hold you back he picked up a new tool to help; Water Gun, Headbutt, Body Slam, Bubblebeam, Surf etc. Water/Normal I believe gives you perfect coverage, albeit uninspiring. He doesn't hit very hard and it starts to get noticeable as he enters Level 20, but still proves effective with enough super effective fodder to prey on. Doesn't have the best encounter rate and does involve backtracking once you've got the Old Rod to Violet City/Ruins of Alph to catch, but comes at Level 10 and is only a level away from Water Gun. As a Poliwhirl he was horrible, has the same Special Attack as Pidgeotto (yes) and doesn't have a gain in speed to match it. I actually evolved him into Politoed at Level 27 although I wish I'd held on until Level 32 when it gets Mud Shot to give him coverage. As a Politoed he changes dynamic and becomes a bulky water Pokémon with respectable speed and durability although lacking in super effective options. Never really let me down but never really excelled, almost like Meganium to be fair.

Girafarig low A / high B
Pleasantly surprised by her. I never knew you could get her before Morty so I was eager to try this out. Caught her prior to entering the gym and solely used her to catch up levels to the rest of my team. Didn't fare as well against Morty himself as I'd hoped, but came out of the fourth gym having caught up to the rest of my team. Gets STAB on Strength which is ace, the dynamic of the team meant that the three main HMs were usable. Has to rely on Psybeam for a rather long time but luckily has a lot of poison types to take advantage of during the game. Wasn't as helpful against Chuck as I'd thought she'd be, Only reason why I'm not automatically saying she should be in A is because I had to take a long, un-obvious detour to grab her before Morty; had I grabbed her after him I might have had a longer time grinding her back up to the rest of my team.


I'm tempted to replay this soon with Totodile as I want to check out early Heracross and early Aipom.
 
Last edited:
I'm kind of overlevelled. That fast exp group of Togetic and Ambipom is really coming through, it seems.

Feraligatr (33): it 2HKO's Seel with crunch and it 2HKO's Piloswine with surf, taking minimal amounts of damage in return. It can't break through Dewgong without defense drops from crunch though. It's very likely that you run out of crunch pp before Dewgong goes down. You can use focus punch to speed this up, but I don't think it's worth it. Good matchup.

Togetic (33): at full HP, it can take one blizzard from Piloswine and OHKO it with specs fire blast. It can beat Seel as well, but this would leave you with not enough HP to beat either Degong or Piloswine. If you can manage to get two ancientpower boosts, you can cheese your way through as well, but this is unreliable. Mediocre matchup.

Ambipom (33): double hit was a range on Seel. It 3HKO's Piloswine, factoring in the sitrus berry. It even 2HKO'd Dewgong, which is pretty impressive. So yeah, you can just power through with double hit. Might need a potion, but good matchup overall.

Marowak (33): it easily takes out Seel with bonemerang. Dewgong outspeeds and 2HKO's with aurora beam, but bonemerang gets it in red. This forces Pryce to use a potion, so you're free to use focus punch to OHKO it. Piloswine also outspeeds, so you have to switch and heal before taking it on. Bonemerang is a 2HKO, and Focus punch a 1HKO, but you have to get lucky to actually land those moves. Overall, decent-ish matchup.


Feraligatr (38): It can't break through Gyarados at all, and it takes a lot of damage from dragon rage. It 2HKO's both of the dragonairs with ice fang, but this does leave them a chance to use thunder wave or thunder. Gatr can't touch Kingdra at all. Pretty bad matchup.

Togetic (38): Yeah, it's just too weak here. Yawn can be useful as Togetic can tank a hydro pump from Kingdra. Ancientpower has the potential to beat Gyarados if you get a boost, but this is unreliable. Mediocre matchup.

Ambipom (39): I tried sweeping with nasty plot and technichian swift, but Ambipom is too weak to OHKO Kingdra even at +6, so you can't sweep. You might as well use physical Ambipom, because it can 2HKO the Gyarados (if you have intimidate fodder) and it 2HKO's the Dragonairs as well. Kingdra is 3HKO'd, but it 2HKO's you in return, so you need some team support to beat it.

Ambipom can also use baton pass here. passing an agility boost to something slow but powerful like Lapras, Marowak or Victreebel can be very useful. Overall, it's a decent matchup, but it's a shame that it can't sweep with nasty plot.

Marowak (38): it 2HKO's Gyarados with rock tomb (if you have intimidate fodder), but Gyarados still outspeeds after the speed drop, so you have to tank two dragon rages. Marowak has a good matchup against the Dragonairs because it's immune to thunder wave and it OHKO's them with bonemerang. Kingdra outspeeds and OHKO's it with hydro pump, but bonemerang does massive damage to it. Enough to 2HKO even considering the sitrus berry. This means that with some team support (screech and or sleep, for instance) Marowak can take Kingdra down anyway. Decent matchup.


From past experience, as I'm not really playing HGSS anymore.

Typhlosion - Borderline A/S: It has Fire Blast accuracy issues until E4, but it only really needs to use it in major fights. Also has Clair/Lance issues but hardly anything doesn't.

Feraligatr - S: Surf doesn't really fall off until after the Waterfall HM is available and it gets good enough coverage for everything pre-Kanto.

Graveler (No Trade) - Borderline B/A: Its earlygame is amazing but it falls off hard at Morty and you start noticing its Speed against normal trainers which is not great. Still does something against later fights, but probably optimal to just drop it after Whitney.

Dunsparce - C: It's not really feasible to catch one until after you can Rock Smash, at which point it's an 80% encounter. Its movepool sucks until the Headbutt tutor, but at Goldenrod it picks up Return and Fire Blast and tears through a lot of the midgame. Still decent lategame.

Onix (No Trade) - B?: It's basically just a Geodude (albeit with traded EXP, which doesn't really matter that much in my experience) until Morty when it becomes somehow even more useless. It's probably the single best mon for the first three gyms though, so I feel like that's worth something.

Victreebel - C: Though the Leaf Stone is a bit of a detour, Bellsprout starts destroying everything the moment it evolves. Unfortunately its moves are a bit weak for endgame and Grass is not the best typing in Johto, especially early-game.

Heracross - S: Basically what everyone said before.

Lapras - B: Relatively late and is a detour, but is solid all-around and has good matchups. Could be A if the detour isn't considered too bad.

Dragonair - B: Comes at a pretty good level and starts destroying everything right away with Dragon Rage. 2100 coins in the Game Corner is honestly nothing and if you're good at Voltorb Flip and not too unlucky should take like 5 minutes at most (even less if you know how to manipulate secondary RNG, but that's a different topic) making it essentially a gift Pokemon. It evolves not long after Dragon Rage falls off and Dragonair's movepool carries it until Blackthorn, where you can trade it for a Dodrio for the endgame (if it's female).

Scyther (No Trade) - B/C?: A pain to catch, especially for Technician, but it gets Wing Attack shortly after and that's the only move it'll really ever click. Its only real bad matchup is Jasmine (Pryce is easy if you went to the Game Corner for Swords Dance) unless you have really bad attack in which case you might die to Chuck? (never happened to me) It would easily be S if it was easy to catch so I don't know how much we're penalizing that.

Granbull - whereever Entei is: It's a huge pain to get, to where I've had easier times catching the legendary dogs than getting a Snubbull, hence the ranking. It is quite good when you do get it, between Headbutt, Return, Fire Blast, eventually Earthquake, and Intimidate does help, though finding one with Intimidate is even harder.

Dugtrio - D: It's fairly late, is a 4% encounter, and is really frail. It's got one of the most powerful Earthquakes in Johto though, shame about its matchups.

Azumarill/Marowak - D: For the Safari Zone encounters, I'm assuming you're going west first. In that case these two get a chance to level up against Team Rocket and their Pryce/Jasmine matchups are actually pretty good, respectively. (I am not considering Mt. Mortar Marill because that is too rare and does not gain any major battles compared to Safari Zone Marill)

Kangaskhan/Pupitar/Misdreavus/Murkrow - E: They're like Azu/Wak without the good matchups. The latter three can't evolve until Kanto. I suspect most of the rest of the Safari Zone fits here, but I don't have experience with those mons.
I'm going to agree with Ryota and MasterLemon on Cyndaquil. I think that a Pokemon with as horrible coverage and pp issues as Cyndaquil can't be S. You're bound to get walled by things if you don't have coverage, and that is exactly what happens with Cyndaquil. It just has too many issues to put it in S, imo.


I think Feraligatr also doesn't deserve S. Gatr does have coverage, but it lacks the power to really make use of it. It's never bad or useless, but it's also never very dominant, with mostly "decent-ish" matchups throughout the midgame. That's just not good enough for S. It's still a solid A though.


I think you're overrating Onix' amazing early game a bit too much. It's basically an S up until Morty, but it's utter trash after that. I think a high tier mon should be good for the entire game, or at least a big part of it. Three good matchups isn't gonna cut it in my opinion. I think D or C is a bit more appropriate.


I strongly disagree with Dragonair in B. I used it a while back, and i just didn't feel strong enough to be a high tier. Even disregarding the fact that you have to get it from the gamecorner, and that you have to buy it TM's, it's just not great. The main problem is that its stats are extremely mediocre, and dragon rage isn't helping that in the late game.

I find the argument that you can trade it for Dodrio not particularly compelling either. Not only does this argument have nothing to do with Dragonairs own performance, I don't think Dodrio is a very good reward either. What is it going to do at the e4 with like no movepool? If you have to trade away a Pokemon because it's not as good as the mon that you get back, it probably isn't a very good Pokemon. So if anything, I think this argument actually undermines Dragonair's performance.


I agree with pretty much everything else though, especially Dunsparce. If Marowak keeps up at the E4, I can see it in C maybe. It's probably better than Dugtrio at least.
 

Ryota Mitarai

Shrektimus Prime
is a Smogon Media Contributor
started my Rattata / Sudowoodo / Miltank / Chinchou run.

Rattata is level 12

Rattata: beats Pidgey with no problems. You need to heal spam in order to win against Pidgeotto (I threw around 4) with 2 Tail Whips making Quick Attack a 3HKO. You cannot reasonanly beat Pidgeotto, but I got a crit that allowed me to kill it.


Rattata is level 18

Rattata: Hyper Fang spam gets it an effortless win


Rattata is level 19

Rattata: outsped and hit hard by Scyther's U-turn, being a 2HKO. Hyper Fang is a 3HKO, even with berry. If you have a Raticate, Hyper Fang outspeeds and 3HKOs (sometimes 2HKOs), even with berry.


Rattata was level 19 here, I did it before Bugsy to evolve it

Rattata: Bite OHKOs Gastly, while Hyper Fang 3HKOs Croconaw and OHKOs Zubat. You outspeed all mons unless you get a Scary Face.


Raticate is level 21

Raticate: Hyper Fang is a 3HKO on Miltank and a 2HKO if you use Tail Whip. You are faster and only issue here is Attract. Return is weaker at this stage so just use Hyper Fang in spite of accuracy issues, as even -1 Miltank is 3HKOed by Return.


Raticate and Sudowoodo are level 23, rest is 21

Raticate: Return OHKOs Zubat and 3HKOs Croconaw. Bite OHKOs Gastly and Dig OHKOs Magnemite.
Sudowoodo: Rock Throw kills ZUbat and Gastly and Low Kick 3HKOs Magnemite, though it has Sonic Boom and Supersonic (though you can teach it Dig to OHKO Magnemite).
Miltank: (caught in Friend Ball) Return OHKOs Gastly and ZUbat if you have Scrappy and 3HKOs the rest. It has enough bulk to take multiple hits.
Chinchou: Surf kills Gastly, which Curses. Thunder OHKOs Zubat and Croocnaw, while Surf almost OHKOs Magnemite. If a bit higher level, it sweeps even if Gastly curses it.


Miltank is level 23, rest is 24

Raticate: easy sweep, Crunch outspeeds and OHKOs everything bar Gengar, which is OHKOed if you Tail Whip it twice. It also has no means of damaging you, other than Sucker Punching, which deals laughable damage.
Sudowoodo: Rock Throw OHKOs Gastly on rolls and 2HKOs Haunters. Though one is easy as it curses, the Hypnosis one may be problematic. Faint Attack at level 25 could help improve the matchup.
Miltank: Return outspeeds and OHKOs Gastly and Hypnosis Haunter. Gengar is 3HKOed and the other Haunter is 2HKOed by Return, but they have no ways of damaging you, other than with Sucker Punch, which you PP stall with Defense Curl if you wish to. Great matchup, overall.
Chinchou: Surf OHKOs Gastly and 2HKOs the Haunter. The Hypnosis one is RNG fest, the other one is easy as it likes to Curse you. Gengar is 2HKOed by Thunder, with mine not even triggering Sitrus Berry, but Chinchou is 2HKOed by Shadow Ball. I wouldn't call this a bad matchup, nonetheless.


Miltank is level 26, rest is 27

Raticate: Return OHKOs Zubat and 2HKOs the rest. Be careful of accuracy drops.
Sudowoodo: Rock Throw kills Zubat and Faint Attack (due to Koffing's Smokescren) spam will finish off the rest
Miltank: read Raticate's.
Lanturn: spam Specs Surf and you win


everything is level 30

Raticate: not the worst. Return 2HKOs Primeape and 3HKOs (4HKO with Sitrus). I even used Tail Whip on Poliwrath and it made Return a 3HKO regardless of Berry. Of course, Double Team is problematic, and so is Hypnosis, but Raticate can do something here.
Sudowoodo: why did I even bother. Though you can try stalling out Primeape's Focus Punches with Faint Attack, but it can also just Rock Slide you to death.
Miltank: ...actually not bad. It outspeeds both of his mons and 2HKOs Primeape and 3HKOs (4HKOs if you include the Sitrus Berry) with Zen Headbutt. Of course, there's the fact it is heavily punished for missing at any point, but if you are lucky, Miltank can actually do something here.
Lanturn: really good matchup. If you set up Rain Dance, Thunder will always strike, even through Double Team, 2HKOing both of his mons. Only mind that Primeape can potentially go for Focus Punch immediately, damaging you hard for setting up Rain Dance. In my test, Primeape started Focus Punching as soon as it got a Double Team, while Poliwrath just went for Focus Punch immediately (and twice in a row).


Everything is level 30

Raticate: Dig OHKOs Magnemites, glhf with Steelix.
Sudowoodo: Dig OHKOs Magnemites, glhf with Steelix.
Miltank: well, there is a way to do well here, but.... it's Choice Specs Focus Blast... But yeah, that OHKOs Magnemites and 3HKOs Steelix (due to Sitrus Berry). I know it's a meme, but hey, at least there is a way for Miltank to do well. It also learns Surf, so if you want to, you can use that for Steelix.
Lanturn: Specs Surf OHKOs everything. Nothing more to say.


Sudowoodo is level 30, rest is 31

Raticate: 2HKOs Seel with Return and 3HKOs Dewgong with Return. Dewgong generally finishes you off with Ice Shard after 2 Returns, but if you heal, you beat it. Piloswine, do not bother with it.
Sudowoodo: it sucks here... Rock Throw 3HKOs Seel and Dewgong, but Dewgong also 3HKOs with Aurora Beam and they are all faster, thus putting you in a stalemate. So just don't bother here.
Miltank: DCurl Rollout can sweep here. 3 Rollouts are needed to secure an OHKO on Seel. Piloswine then gets OHKOed by the next Rollout and so is Dewgong. You need to be somewhat lucky to sweep, and lucky on first place to be healthy enough to take Piloswine's Blizzard if you are not Thick Fat.
Lanturn: Best way to go here is just OHKO Seel with Thunder or 2HKO with Charge Beam, fishing for SpA boosts. Then Piloswine is 2HKOed by MysticWater Surf (OHKOed if you have +1 SpA or somehowly have rain, but those things have Hail and always prioritize setting it up) and Dewgong is overpowered with Charge Beam spam (and OHKOed by +1 Thunder). Good matchup


Everything is level 32

Raticate: Return 2HKOs Koffing. If you get lucky, you are taking out 3 or 4, they generally spam Sludge.
Sudowoodo: literally struggles to take down just one Koffing, given Rock Throw isn't even a 2HKO. Terrible matchup, since they can debuff accuracy and poison with Sludge.
Miltank: 2HKOs Koffing with Return. 5HKOed by Sludge. How many you take is luck-based, as they love to debuff its accuracy.
Lanturn: Specs Surf OHKOs Koffing and 2HKOs Weezing. If Weezing goes for Sludge turn one, win is guaranteed.


Lanturn is level 33, rest is 32

Raticate: Return 2HKOs Golbat and Sneasel and 3HKOs Feraligatr. Dig kills Magnemite and Crunch kills Haunter. If you heal once, you are sweeping. Great matchup
Sudowoodo: Rock Throw 2HKOs Golbat and Sneasel, while Dig OHKOs Magnemite and Faint Attack kills Haunter after Curse. You won't beat Sneasel if you have Curse, though.
Miltank: DCurl Rollout, if it doesn't get interrupted, kills everything up to Haunter, which is his last mon, which instead can be OHKOed with Return. Though, if you do not go the Rollout route, you can still sweep, but you will need to heal against Sneasel. Return 2HKOs Golbat, 3HKOs Feraligatr, 2HKOs Sneasel and then you heal after one Return and you 3HKO Magnemite. Good matchup, whichever route you go.
Lanturn: can sweep. Get some SpA boosts off Charge Beam against Golbat, with +2 Charge Beam putting Gatr in red (mine speedtied it). Then MW Surf OHKOs the rest. If you need to, use a Hyper Potion and the sweep is guaranteed. Great matchup


Raticate is level 35, rest is 33

Raticate: Return 2HKOs Golbat and 3HKOs Weezing. Sweeps if not unlucky
Sudowoodo: Rock Slide OHKOs Golbat and 4HKOs Weezing
Miltank: DCurl Rollout 2HKOs both mons, if you start from Golbat. Fastest way to beat this matchup.
Lanturn: Specs Charge Beam spam wins. Unboosted Specs Beam OHKOs Golbat and 2HKOs Weezing (and +1 is also 2HKO on Weezing).


Same levels, but Miltank is level 34

Raticate: -1 Return 3HKOs Arbok. Unboosted Return 2HKOs the rest. Just skip Arbok
Sudowoodo: -1 Rock Slide 3HKOs Arbok (with Dig being 2HKO) and unboosted OHKOs Murkrow (though
Miltank: 3HKOs Arbok with -1 Return and 4HKOs Vileplume with -1 Return (though it will likely beat you due to paralysis from Glare). If you just skip Arbok, Miltank will beat the rest with no problems. If you want to, you can also try DCurl Rollout, but requires too much luck to pull it off to end.
Lanturn: Specs Surf 2HKOs Arbok and OHKOs Murkrow. Avoid Vileplume


same levels, but Lanturn is level 34

Raticate: OHKOs Houndour with Dig and 2HKOs Houndoom, but dies to it. Koffing is 3HKOed by Return.
Sudowoodo: Rock Slide OHKOs Houndour and 2HKOs Houndoom. The only time I actually felt good for using Sudowoodo.
Miltank: Return 2HKOs Houndour and Houndoom (and outspeeds them!) and 3HKOs Koffing. You generally sweep, especially if you have Thick Fat.
Lanturn: Incredible. Specs Surf OHKOs everything. You only lose if Houndoom flinches with Bite, otherwise, it's a gg for you.


current thoughts on member so far:

Rattata
This is definitely B-tier at worst. It's all around useful and is never a deadweight in any matchup, even Chuck. Whenever it is A will be decided by next matchups, especially with SD. If it can destroy the E4, I am gonna nom it for A. Note that I am not using Guts one, as I want to see how it performs without status. If you do use one with Guts, def try to get the Facade TM (if it is one of the Goldenrod lottery TMs). Guts boosted +2 Facade sounds something even Lance cannot take lol.

Sudowoodoo
Yeah, this is D at best. It is useful in some instances, most notably Archer, Silver in general, Jasmine if you have Dig, Petrel 1, and Morty, but it's useless outside of that.

Miltank
Looks like a B-tier to me. I'd say use Tauros, though Miltank has been really good. I think both Scrappy and Thick Fat are fine abilities, though I managed to win in matchups that Thick Fat would help with anyways, but Thick Fat will solidify the good matchups. So you don't have to hunt for a specific ability, which is a huge edge it has over Tauros. Regardless, I think it will end up in B.

Chinchou
I am incredibly impressed with this. It has no bad matchups so far. It requires a small detour, but you can use that detour to obtain three things for it: Chinchou itself, MysticWater, and Rain Dance TM, so three birds, one stone. I'd say, unless it flops seriously hard end-game, Chinchou will end up in A-tier. It's really that good.

Also I wanna say that I agree with Magnus0 on Totodile; I remember when I used mine, it didn't have a great early-game; it needed 3 Leers to beat Pidgeotto and I am not sure how it's gonna do anything against Scyther and Miltank, both of which you need some team support to beat. Magnus's logs for those three fights convey very well how slow it is in taking down the early-game. Again, A-tier is not bad ranking, but it's not that consistent to really warrant S or, as I call it, the "best Pokemon tier".

e: I forgot IVs... yet again:

chinchou.jpg
rattata.jpg
miltank.jpg
sudowoodo.jpg
 
Last edited:

Users Who Are Viewing This Thread (Users: 2, Guests: 0)

Top