Pokemon Heartgold and Soulsilver In-Game Tier List (MkII)

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The comeback

Everyone level 29

Victreebel: Sludge Bomb 2hkos Primeape, however it outspeeds you and Double Team + Rock Slide flinches can get annoying. Dodge a Hypnosis to sleep Poliwrath and ohko it with Hypnosis. Good matchup, but requires a bit of luck.

Miltank: Twisted Spoon Zen Headbutt into Body Slam kos Primeape, but it can outspeed and cheese you. ZH 3hkos Poliwrath, giving it chances to put you to sleep. Decent matchup, you can do it but it’s not very easy.

Magmar: Charcoal-boosted Fire Punch 2hkos Primeape but again, it outspeeds and can Double Team and Rock Slide all over you, which is especially bad as you take super effective damage from it. Interestingly, on my first attempt Chuck switched out Primeape for Poliwrath after a Fire Punch. This didn’t happen again on my second try but it’s worth noting. Poliwrath obviously beats you. Calling this a poor matchup, Primeape has as much chance of beating you as you do of it.

Slowking: Specs Confusion ohkos Ape and 3hkos Poli through Sitrus. Both can annoy you with evasion / sleep, but they can’t really touch you either outside of repeated crits (which of course happened to me). Great matchup.

Victreebel (30): Solarbeam 2hkos Magnemite and Steelix through berry. Mags aren’t worth it cuz of confusion and paralysis but you can eat an Iron Tail from Steelix and deal with it. Decent matchup, beats the ace but struggles against the minions.

Miltank (30): Can’t even learn dig lel. Bad matchup.

Magmar (29): Fire Punch ohkos Mags and Fire Blast ohkos Lix. Even if Lix dodges a Blast Rock Throw doesn’t even ohko so just don’t miss twice lol. Fantastic matchup.

Slowking (29): Mags outspeed and 2hko with Tbolt, you ohko them back with Specs Surf. Steelix also outspeeds but can’t really touch you and you ohko with Surf as well. Good matchup, will require a potion or two but otherwise a sweep is feasible due to raw power.

Victreebel (31): Sludge Bomb 2hkos Seel. Solarbeam ohkos Piloswine. Dewgong outspeeds and 2hkos with Aurora Beam, and if you put it to sleep it can still kill you anyways thanks to Sleep Talk. I imagine Solarbeam ohkos this as well but I couldn’t get it to hit cuz I would either miss Sleep Powder or get Sleep Talked. You absolutely MUST sleep everything so as to not anything set up Hail as this will kill your Solarbeam. Decent matchup, you can kill everything hypothetically but it takes a lot of luck to pull off and I almost feel like I’m being too generous to this thing by calling it decent.

Miltank (30): Body Slam 2hkos Seel. Pilo is 5hkod through Sitrus but he doesn’t do very much damage either since you can heal with Milk Drink, It’s a giant slugfest that you could win but is super inconvenient to get into. With Rollout you crush Dewgong. Good matchup, beats 2 out of 3 and beating Dewgong easily is crazy good.

Magmar (30): Seel is 4hkod by any move. Fire Blast ohkos Piloswine. GL HF with Dewgong. Decent matchup, you at least kill the ace.

Slowking (31): Specs Confusion is a roll to 2hko Seel, will probably die from Hail. Specs Surf ohkos Piloswine. Specs Confusion 3hkos Dewgong who can’t touch you at all. Good matchup, requires a bit of switching around though.

Slowking is 31, rest 32

Victreebel: Sleep Powder, get two Growths up and ohko the Koffings with Sludge Bomb. SleepBeam barely misses the ohko on Weezing so you might wanna get three Growths instead of two but you’re playing with a lot of sleep turns and Weezing is inclined to Sludge anyways.

Miltank: Zen Headbutt 2hko Koffing, 3hkos Weezing. Ample time to get poisoned and accuracy dropped. Decent matchup.

Magmar: Fire Punch 2hkos Koffing and Fire Blast ohkos Weezing. Overall good matchup, ohkoing Weezing is a good contribution but you can’t hard sweep due to the inevitable poisons and Smokescreens.

Slowking: Specs Confusion ohkos the Koffings and barely misses the ohko on Weezing. However you’re slower than everything so you are prone to hax. Good matchup, watch for Weezing boom.

Everyone is level 32

Victreebel: Sneasel is arguably your best set up target since it only 3hkos with Faint Attack. Get up two growths, ko with Sludge Bomb. Ko Mag and Haunter with Solarbeam. You can’t set up on Gatr due to Ice Fang but you beat it without setup, and Golbat you can’t setup up on or beat. Good matchup provided you get the setup.

Miltank: 2hko Golbat and Sneasel, 3hko Gatr and Mag, ohko Haunter. Hax from Confuse ray and Thunder Wave is your worst enemy, but you can overcome it with items and you can heal off damage yourself with Milk Drink. Good matchup.

Magmar: Ohko Sneasel, Mag, Haunter with Fire Punch. Golbat barely escapes the ohko from Fire Blast, but Fire Punch is a clean 2hko so you don't have to risk it. GLHF with Gatr. Great matchup, would be near perfect if I was facing any other starter.

Slowking: TwistedSpoon Confusion 2hkos Golbat (Specs doesn’t ohko), ohkos Haunter, 3-4hkos Gatr. Surf ohkos Mag and 2hkos Sneasel. Every mon bar Mag I think has super effective coverage on you, and while none of them ohko you, Sneasel and Gatr will beat you. So you can 1v1 the other three, but a sweep is impossible. Decent matchup.

Slowking is 34, rest 33.

Victreebel: Golbat beats you straight up, you can beat Weezing but it takes a lot of luck considering it likes to spam Smokescreen. Bad matchup.

Miltank: 2hko Golbat, 3hko Weezing. Golbat can’t effectively hurt you back but accuracy drops and poisons from Weezing really hurt. Decent matchup.

Magmar: Specs Fire Blast ohkos both. Great matchup.

Slowking: Specs Confusion ohkos both. Great matchup, only bother is hax but Golbat does pitiful damage with Bite and Weezing prioritizes Sludge.

Levels are the same

Victreebel: You can suffer to get up to +2 and 2hko Arbok with Sludge Bomb, and then get outsped and kod by Murkrow. Victreebel can sleep and Sludge Bomb Vileplume down, but eh. Still wanna call this a poor matchup, at the very least inefficient and frustrating with how unlucky you can get vs Arbok.

Miltank: At -1, TS Zen barely 2hkos Arbok, 3hkos Vileplume. Murkrow is 2hkod by Return. Great matchup, Intimidate fodder isn’t necessary but useful vs Vileplume.

Magmar: Fire Blast ohkos everything. Even at -1 Fire Punch will 2hko Murkrow and Vileplume. Great matchup.

Slowking: 2hko Arbok with TS Confusion (Tip: Disable Crunch lol). Vileplume is 2hkod and do shit for damage with Mega Drain (don’t Disable this move, as it will then resort to spamming Sleep Powder, and it outspeeds you, so). Murkrow is ohkod by Surf and doesn’t do shit back with Pursuit. Will likely require some item support, but surprisingly good matchup.

Victreebel and Magmar are 33, rest 34.

Victreebel: do I even need to tell you lol

Miltank: Clean sweep with Rollout. Great matchup.

Magmar: Houndour and Houndoom kinda wall you. You can 3hko Houndour before it 3hkos you with Fire Punch, and still beat Koffing, but have no reservations vs Doom. Decent matchup.

Slowking: Specs Surf ohkos everything. Unfortunately Houndour into Doom will ko you, so you need to sack to heal up.

Thoughts

:Victreebel: I feel like I was too harsh to Venonat in retrospect. This pokemon takes a ton of setup to get going, which is extremely unreliable given sleep turns and lack of bulk and meaningful resistances. Even if you can get it going you could always get outsped due to average speed and revenge'd due to low bulk. It's just not an optimal choice by any means, especially for the Rocket-heavy stages of the game.

:Miltank: Very well-rounded. Kinda wish I preserved Dcurl for the Rollout combo but even without it it's performed well. Kinda sux that it doesn't learn Dig tho. Not a lot to say, just a bulky fast, and fairly strong mon.

:Magmar: An important thing I completely forgot in my previous post was that Magmar gets Fire Punch at level 28. This is actually huge, in my eyes. Not having to rely on Ember until the mid 30s makes Magmar's performance at this stage in the game way better than Qwilava's, maybe any fire type in the game actually, and it'll upgrade to Lava Plume around the time Qwilava would as well. Having a strong AND reliable fire STAB at every stage of the game is pretty cool, especially for a fire type with as good of stats as Magmar. I still expect it to drop off at the lategame, but right now I'm very happy with this mon.

:Slowking: Slow + Psychic typing is a really bad combo, I've come to find out. My Slowking has really awful speed ivs anyways but regardless you're gonna get outsped and flinched / confused / poisoned / haxxed in general. Not to mention your low speed leaves you wide open for the plethora of dark moves Team Rocket carries. So not as good against Rocket as you may want for a Psychic, but otherwise typing + bulk carries it a lot.

Also wanted to mention that my previous test of Golem was not a really good indicator of how good it is. By not using Dcurl + Rollout I was using it very suboptimally (if you didn't know, like I didn't at the time, using Defense Curl increases the power of Rollout, which makes it a very deadly sweeping move), and so I don't feel like my experiences should be weighed when considering what rank Geodude, trade or otherwise, should be. I plan on using Graveler sometime down the line to test the combo myself and see how well it does, but until then I support Ryota and DrumStick's views on Geodude.
 
Apologies with my absence. Have a lot on my plate these days but I assure you that I plan to see this list to completion. Let's review. This is gonna be a big one.

Sentret -> C
So, performance-wise, I think Sentret deserves C-tier. The reason is that it's not only obtainable early, but Furret also helps against Bugsy (it is capable of taking down Scyther if you land 9 Fury Swipes without him healing) and is really handy against most fights. It takes down Jasmine's Magnemites, 2/3 of Pryce's team, can actually beat Chuck if AI derps (which I am not gonna count) and is one of the strongest things to use against Morty, as you muscle through with Shadow Claw. While it lacks power, Dig and Shadow Claw become obsolete on it after Archer and thus you can run two additional HMs, alongside Surf. This makes Furret overall an HM slave that can actually contribute to fights, so I think C-tier is overall a better tier for it than D, because, in short, Sentret does well against some major fights and can do so even with HMs occupying some slots.

Exeggcute -> D
Exeggcute period is really bad. You don't have many positive matchups with it (although it does take down Silver's Croconaw if you picked Cyndaquil) before evolving. Even though Exeggutor's Solar Beam, especially when combined with Specs, hits really hard, Eggy is still super reliant on Sleep Powder RNG because of bad typing. However, I am gonna nom it to D, as it performs well enough to warrant some use, no matter how small it is.

Marill -> D, though personally fine with E
Marill is either somewhat late or is 1% encounter. For most parts, Azumarill is really only doing anything impactful with Rollout and Defense Curl, but that is incredibly hard for it, as it's too slow to take advantage of that (unlike Golem, for example, which has Rock Polish). Overall, it can do great if it gets lucky with Rollout, but the slowness + unreliability make me hesitant to even nom it to D. This may need an additional test, because E is a very possible tier for Marill.

Diglett -> E
Yeah, don't bother with Diglett. First of all, it's rather late into the game and is only 4% encounter, meaning it's gonna be a pain to find. I had some issues grinding it up too, I had to restart against a Camper around 4 times before defeating him. Even after that, Dugtrio has very few good matchups: Jasmine's Magnemite (the only notable thing about this is that it beats them without consuming the Dig TM), Archer, and half of Koga's team. But it's a deadweight in pmuch every other fight, so I think justifying D for this is really hard and you gotta be generous to do so.
Not really surprised to see Sentret in C. I had thoughts of D for it but will make my own opinion when I resume my run (Need to finish some tests for other lists first).

I can't make an opinion on Eggs personally as I've used it sparingly. Last time I used it though I do remember struggling to find a way to use it safely/consistently if that makes sense.

I agree with a placement of D/E for Marill. That encounter rate is atrocious and while it has access to Huge Power, you have to suffer a 1% for it. This is pretty much my major gripe about the mon. I haven't personally tested it as you can see why. 1%s tend to break me.

I see E for Diglett. Anything that is around the Safari Zone is already a D at best. I know that Diglett is right outside but I remember grinding in that area and ran into very few. Compounded with some icky matchups, this is a feasible Tier to place it in.

Raticate
I'm going with B here. It has an excellent run in the early and midgame, to the point where I was considering an A. By the Radio Tower though, it is too frail to withstand anything that isn't a trainer battle. Even then, by Route 26/27, its low stats were beginning to show even against maps. I never taught it Swords Dance, but I highly doubt it would have the defences to set it up against the likes of Clair and the Elite Four. I'm welcome to C arguments here, but its performance before the Radio Tower convinces me otherwise.

Scizor
I'm giving it a generous C. This guy is extremely hard to obtain; with a combination of the Bug Catching Contest, its catch rate, getting the right ability and grinding at the Pokeathlon Dome to get a Metal Coat. Even with all of these factors, it doesn't quite pay for itself like Abra did in RBY. It learns Bullet Punch too late, and even then you need a Heart Scale. Until then, its speed is problematic. Metal Claw is nice to have as Steel STAB, but its only option for Bug STAB is U-Turn until the incredibly late Level 41 when it gets X-Scissor. Despite my issues with it though, it is still a powerhouse and the Steel type worked wonders against the likes of Koga who could cripple you with Toxic. These aren't enough to hide its faults though and I'm surprised that people used to believe that it was S back in the old tier list. I'm welcome to arguments for a D placement, but I feel that it is just about strong enough for a C.

Arcanine
I'm not sure how much testing it has received if the player uses a Fire Stone right away, but if you're holding out for Flamethrower like I did, I'd definitely put in D. Even with the Johto trainer rosters, Growlithe will begin to struggle by Routes 40 and 41, and it never really recovers until you learn Flamethrower. Fire Blast is too inaccurate and the damage just doesn't cut it on bosses not named Jasmine even with Charcoal equipped. Its non-STAB options are pretty lame as well, with Strength not really doing a whole lot on Fire-resistant foes. Things pick up a bit when you get Arcanine, but you probably won't have it until Routes 26 and 27. Around this point, an influx of Fire-resistant Pokemon show up. On top of that, just like with Scyther, its evolutionary item (Fire Stone) is too annoying to obtain. Either you have to hope Schoolboy Alan will give you one, or you need to waste more time at the Pokeathlon Dome. Not a great pick, especially if you took the route that I used. I'm wondering how much better it would be if you tried to evolve it ASAP as you would need to rely on the inaccurate Fire Blast for STAB. Either way, this Pokemon has many problems with it here.

Lapras
I'm sticking with the B consensus here. The Union Cave detour sucks, with it boasting trainers that are much stronger than your current set-up at that point. It also doesn't help how you have to make sure that you catch it on a Friday. The speed also doesn't do it any favours, leaving it susceptible to status like the ever-annoying confusion. If you can look over these faults, Lapras is a mean boss killer. Chuck and Bruno aside, it has enough in its toolbox to potentially OHKO quite a few of the team members used by the gym leaders. Pryce is a good example of this, with Surf and Thunder doing the job perfectly fine. Lapras doesn't even need that many TMs, only the buyable Thunder. I ran Choice Specs on it, which was probably what gave it the firepower to deal with most of the boss fights. One strat that was recommended was to try Rain Dance on it, which helps out Surf and Thunder some. Either way, Lapras is a solid choice for a Water or Ice pick once you get past the detour.
Raticate is seeming to bounce around B/A as of recent so I'd say this one will need about 2-3 more tests. Why it may be a bit much, I've heard good things about it and want to accurately place it as best we can.

As I stated, Scizor may very well be C for it's investment, but I would like to have more tests done on it. I personally feel that D is too low for it though but who knows.

We've been testing Growlithe in regards to evolve ASAP or stay off Evo. At this point, I'm not sure we can merge it into one tier at this point? It seems it performs so vastly different depending on what you want from it.

Lapras also seems to be bouncing around B/A as well. Though A is shaky. We should get some more tests with ThunderDance however. Seems a lot of it is Choice Specs.

I think it's a bit too early to do write-ups. I think we should focus on those after most things have been tested (and preferably, I'd be happy if there was a separate thread instead for organization purposes). But maybe Turdterra has a different opinion?
I personally feel that it is way too soon still. We've tested a good portion and I am still compiling the List in the OP to see what needs the more immediate tests.

Rattata to A. Lived up to the hype. Consistently performed at a good level throughout the game, failing against most ace pokemon but doing extraordinarily well against everything else. What sold me on A though was Swords Dance. Being able to sweep every Elite 4 battle (with support required in some matches) is an incredible feat for a lowly route 1 rat. I also managed to sweep Clair by outspeeding her Kingdra, which seems to be IV dependent (Unfortunately I wasn't able to calculate my Rat's speed IVs) but given that Magnus's also accomplished the same I think it's fair to include it as a positive, if inconsistent, matchup. Still, it had an incredibly solid endgame to compliment its solid early to midgame. A rank for me.

Geodude (Trade) to A. This, however, did not live up to the hype. Safely not S in my eyes, and I genuinely debated whether it was worth B, but I think A is a good place for it. Geodude possesses perhaps the greatest earlygame of any pokemon in Johto, readily handling the first three gyms (provided your Geodude is female, fuck Whitney), but it noticeably becomes inconsistent after this point. I won't comment on Morty, as Ryota claimed Geodude to have a path to victory against him that I didn't use, but it performs poorly against Chuck, great vs Jasmine, poorly vs Pryce, and then stays generally positive vs the Rockets, with a very strong matchup vs Archer. Then it eats shit vs Clair and bounces up and down with the E4. Golem can contribute in just about any matchup given its typing and the sheer utility of boom, but it never outright dominated/swept many matches, which to me is a sign that it isn't an S tier. Maybe it could've swept better with Rollout > Rock Blast, but honestly both are pretty shit moves to be forced to use anyways. However, given its excellent early-game provided with the fact that it manages to stay a strong member of your team afterwards makes it A to me. Given that, I'd also nominate Geodude (No trade) to B. Graveler does basically the same thing as Golem but the lower stats (attack, especially) makes me believe it's a rank below Golem.

Venonat to D. Venonat is a lot of work to get to a mon that does pretty well for one portion of the game and then just falls flat on its face by the end. Venomoth is incredible once you get it but by Clair its good but not great stats really start to show, as it lacks the power to effectively cut through mons and can often get fucked with via status or just really strong hits. By the E4 you're making singular contributions and aren't sweeping any fights whatsoever, even against fucking Bruno. It's a big value sink into Venomoth, having to give it a ton of xp as well as the Choice Specs and Sludge Bomb tm, and it only does particularly well in one portion of the game. Venomoth is like a B or a C but combined with the Venonat period puts it down to a D for me.

Chinchou to A. Fantastic pokemon. It never suffers a particularly negative matchup and can make progress in just about every one. Water and Electric are both fantastic STABs to have, and with Rain Dance it becomes surprisingly deadly. Contributes as Chinchou but once Lanturn enters the fray it rips shit up and hardly slows down. In terms of downsides, it suffers from an insane detour to get both it and all the tools you want for it, as well as being generally slow. I also came to believe its stats were beginning to wane in the face of the E4 but its typing carried it through with barely an issue. Easy A.
Read above for Raticate. It seems however if you get SD, it makes a case for A. According to Ryota, that's IV dependent. So with that information, I am personally leaning it towards a B but more tests, as stated, will help.

Geodude in A is fine, but we have had people state it's S material as well, a nomination I do not take lightly. S is the pinnacle and will require several tests, if not many, and using the Pokemon to the best of its capabilities to ensure that it is indeed S quality. Now this particular test, you did state you did not use the DCurl + Rollout combo. That will directly affect Geodude for sure. It sounds like I am not going to value your test/not use it, which is not true (if it came off that way). This test showed us for Geodude to actually have a chance to be in S it must use the combo and the information is valuable. For right now though, I will be putting Geodude (Merge) down for A. We have had cases for S as already stated and with 2 weeks to get your arguments in, let's get this rock of doom in a placement once and for all.

Venonat I have next to no experience in using with a testing mindset. But even casually, I hated how the Venonat phase was. I will refrain from giving my opinion on it till I test it. Can't be worse than Spinarak.

Chinchou. Another A nom. Is it truly that great in HGSS? If anyone is willing to test it further, please do so. I'm very surprised its performing on an A level. Granted when I used it casually, I enjoyed what it offered.

Steelix -> A-tier
Steelix has a great typing that makes a lot of matchups positive. It has a great early-game and boosted Exp. I do not know if I see it as S-tier, given it's rather slow into taking down enemies and also has to rely a lot on Iron Tail sometimes, but I do not see it as any tier below A.

Machop (No Trade) -> C
Boosted Exp. + fine performance before the E4, but absolute garbage at the E4. Please keep it at C, thank you

Farfetch'd -> D
I was thinking E, but circumstantial sweeps at the E4 convinced me otherwise. It has lots of issues, like setting up Agility and SD with that bulk, but if it does it, it works. Nothing higher than D, please

Mantine -> C, with a possible case for B
Mantine did a lot better than I imagined. It has Rain Dance + Swift Swim, is bulky and hits hard with Surf. Specs Surf held me for most parts, with Rain Dance being needed only occassionally. However, it has a bad Exp. and catch rate, which is why I am doubting B, but I don't think it's impossible.
Steelix in A is an absolute surprise to me. At first it looked like a B and now it managed to get itself an A nom. If anyone is willing to test this guy further, please do.

Machop (No Trade) I can see in C easily. Usually Machoke always under performs and requires being a Machamp.

Farfetch'd I would see in E more likely. I'm not keen on a D placement if that sweeps are circumstantial. If we get more tests and those sweeps turn out to be true, we can put it in D.

Mantine is interesting as only HG players can use it (which has no bearing on its tiering). I am more interesting that is pretty high in tiering as its generally overlooked for better options such as Tentacruel, Gyarados, and Gatr.

I will stop here now for the review. It's a lot of info I need to compress and view myself, so I will get the continuation of this review out tomorrow. Thank you all for your continued tests and discussions!

Edit: Abra (Trade) added to S. Starters and Gyarados have been officially placed.
 
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Ryota Mitarai

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Quagsire is level 34, rest is 33

Quagsire: Specs Surf OHKOs Koffing and 2HKOs Weezing, which can Smokescreen you.
Kadabra: easy sweep, not gonna bother here
Qwilfish: read Quagsire


same levels, but Qwilfish is level 34

Quagsire: Specs Surf 2HKOs Golbat and Sneasel and OHKOs Magnemite and Quilava. Haunter is dangerous, as it hits hard with Shadow Ball, so avoid it. You also need to heal after beating Sneasel.
Kadabra: Specs Psybeam OHKOs Poison-types and 2HKOs the rest bar Sneasel.
Alakazam: Psybeam 2HKOs Golbat and OHKOs Haunter. Focus Blast OHKOs the Psychic resists and Psybeam 2HKOs Quilava.
Qwilfish: Specs Surf deals with Golbat, Magnemite, Quilava, and Sneasel. Only Haunter proves a problem, as it outspeeds, survives a Surf, and 2HKOs with Shadow Ball. Golbat also survives a Specs Surf and can confuse, but it's outsped.


Everything is level 35

Quagsire: Specs Surf 2HKOs his mons, watch out for their hax strategies.
Kadabra: easy win, not gonna elaborate
Qwilfish: Specs Surf 2HKOs his mons, watch out for their hax strategies.


everything is level 35

Quagsire: Specs Surf deals with Arbok and Murkrow, but struggles with Vileplume
Kadabra: Psybeam OHKOs Arbok. Charge Beam puts Murkrow in red and Kadabra lives a Pursuit. If you get a SpA boost, Psybeam will OHKO Vileplume, if no, then it is close to an OHKO but you die then. Alakazam OHKOs Murkrow with Charge Beam, making the fight more reliant.
Qwilfish: Specs Surf deals with Arbok and Murkrow, but struggles with Vileplume. You can resort to Specs Bomb, if needed.


same levels

Quagsire: Specs Surf 2HKOs Houndoom and OHKOs the rest (Koffing being rolls). Houndoom is faster, but fails to 2HKO. Houndour is also faster, but does nothing, though it can flinch you with Bite.
Kadabra: beats Koffing, but is terrible for the rest
Alakazam: Specs Focus Blast OHKOs Houndoom (without Specs, it fails to). Normal Blast OHKOs Houndour.
Qwilfish: Specs Surf 2HKOs Houndoom and OHKOs the rest (Koffing being rolls). Houndoom is faster, but fails to 2HKO.


everything is level 37

Quagsire: It can set up Amnesias to tank Kingdra's hits and 4HKO it with Earthquake (minding berry). However, Smokescreen makes this matchup more likely to end up with Quagsire trying to PP stall instead of winning. Dragonairs are 2HKOed by Earthquake and you can set up Amnesias and heal to tank Dragon Pulses. Bonus points if they waste turns Aqua Tailing you.
Kadabra: can at most beat one Dragonair by 2HKOing with Psybeam and taking a paralysis and eating an Aqua Tail
Alakazam: You can put yourself in a CM war with Kingdra and set up 4 CMs while healing when necessary. +4 Psybeam 2HKOs Kingdra and OHKOs anything left on her team. Not the most efficient thing, but having something beat Clair's Kingdra is rare, so I am gonna take anything.
Qwilfish: If you use an Intimidate fodder, you can use Rollout and beat everything bar Kingdra if you never miss. Dragon Rage 3HKOs you and Rollout handily 3HKOs while outspeeding Gyara and Dragonair


Qwilfish is level 39, rest is 40

Quagsire: Earthquake OHKOs Sneasel, Magneton, and Kadabra with no Reflect up. Surf 3HKOs and 2HKOs Golbat and Haunter, the latter of which cannot do much to you other than Curse if you have an Amnesia. Typhlosion is not hard to deal with.
Kadabra: Psychic OHKOs Haunter and Golbat and Shadow Ball OHKOs Kadabra. Magneton and Sneasel eat all of your attacks, while Typhlosion hits hard
Alakazam: Focus Blast OHKOs Magneton and Sneasel. Typhlosion 2HKOs with Lava Plume, followed by Flame Wheel.
Qwilfish: has to set up a Minimize against Sneasel, but can Rollout sweep his whole team if Magneton and Haunter miss enough for you to overpower them.


everything is level 42

Quagsire: not very reliable. Exeggutor and Slowbro are not worth your time. Xatu can confuse you and you rely a lot on Amnesia to tank their hits, while 3HKOing at worst with Waterfall. Jynx is 2HKOed by Earthquake, but Lovely Kiss can dent it hardly.
Kadabra: Specs Shadow Ball OHKOs Xatu #1, 2HKOs Xatu #2 and Jynx and OHKOs Eggy on rolls. Slowbro is not an issue. You will generally lose to Jynx if you go for a sweep, as confusion + Ice Punch can beat Kadabra.
Alakazam: Specs Shadow Ball OHKOs Xatu and Eggy. Jynx and Slowbro are 2HKOed, but the former only threatens with Lovely Kiss, which you can heal off anyways.
Qwilfish: has to rely on Minimize, as it does to every Psychic. It can potentially muscle through his team with Rollout if lucky, though.


Alakazam is level 43

Quagsire: not reliable. Ariados has Giga Drain and 2HKOs. Muk is faster and Minimizes, though EQ 2HKOs it. You can beat Venomoth if it doesn't hax you to death. Crobat spams Double Team.
Kadabra: Specs Psychic OHKOs all Poison-types. Watch out for Crobat hax, though
Qwilfish: again, relies on Minimize, but can steamroll his team with Rollout spam. Ariados makes it easy to set up Minimize to the max.


Psychic duo is level 43

Quagsire: deals with Onix and Hitmonchan easily (though Onix is 2HKOed by Waterfall...). Hitmontop has to be played around with Counter and Dig. Hitmonlee can cause problems with Swagger. Machamp hits Quagsire hard, so no point bothering here.
Kadabra: outspeeds and OHKOs everything with Specs Psychic
Qwilfish: Minimize spam and get past Hitmons and Onix. Machamp has No Guard, so no point in trying here.


same levels, but Zam is level 44

Quagsire: OHKOs Houndoom with Earthquake. However, its faster and 2HKOs with Dark Pulse, so make sure not to get flinched.
Kadabra: kills Gengar and Vileplume
Alakazam: set up a CM on Gengar and OHKO it and Vileplume with Psychic. Murkrow and Houndoom are OHKOed by Focus Blast, if it hits them.
Qwilfish: if you spam Minimize on Vileplume and avoid its attacks, you can run through whatever is left of her team with Rollout. If you have


same levels

Quagsire; beats Aerodactyl. Zard 2HKOs with Air Slash and lives a Waterfall
Kadabra: it and Zam are terrible. Zam cannot pull out a sweep without spamming Reflect and CM on Gyara and using an X Speed to outspeed Aerodactyl.
Qwilfish: Rollout sweeping is next-to-impossible, as it gets two shot at worst by almost every move, so unless you get super lucky with Minimize, do not even try.


nominations:

Wooper -> C
Honestly, I think this is very overrated. It's very slow, so it's vulnerable to all the hax the game throws at you. Furthermore, it's somewhat slower in taking down threats than its fellow Water-types. Finally, it has garbage E4 performance, with it OHKOing Houndoom being the only notable thing, which is also prone to hax. I think C-tier is more appropriate for Wooper, given its flaws.

Qwilfish -> C
I think Qwilfish is not terribly bad as a Water-type, but it has to rely a lot on Minimize to sweep, which is very unreliable. I think C-tier is fine for it, given it can perform extremely well with luck.

Alakazam - > S
I've talked about this, but Alakazam levels up fast, comes early, at level 15, can nuke Whitney's Miltank relatively reliably, nukes Chuck, Morty, and most of Team Rocket, and Focus Blast allows it to do well against Jasmine, Pryce, and Karen (and Archer). Although Focus Blast can miss, Jasmine is an easy matchup, so it's not hard to just have something else for her anyways. It has an amazing E4 matchup, so I think it should be S.

Kadabra -> unsure B
Kadabra can crush many opponents with Psychic STAB. Lack of Focus Blast and good matchup against Clair and Whitney hurt it incredibly. I think it might have a chance for A, but I am very unsure. I'd like if someone else gave this a run and shared their opinion as to which tier they are leaning to

also:

We've been testing Growlithe in regards to evolve ASAP or stay off Evo. At this point, I'm not sure we can merge it into one tier at this point? It seems it performs so vastly different depending on what you want from it.
I think Major Fights could just be "If Growlithe is evolved as soon as you obtain a Fire Stone, it will perform well against all Gym Leaders bar Clair, while evolving it after getting Flamethrower makes its performance against the Elite Four more reliable." I doubt there is a need to go as far as splitting entries in this case


As for next run, I am starting to run out of ideas in regards to what mons that are pre-Rocket need testing. I may start running some Safari Mons. I may make a small list with my preliminary tiers about each Safari Mon, as there are stuff like Larvitar that I do not see above E in any circumstances and thus see no point in testing it. May test Mr. Mime next run, as there was a nom to B for it. I will also test both Nidos. I will also test Horsea. I think it should not be tiered highly, because you have to beat Pryce as soon as possible, which means you will likely be very underleveled for him if you try to do so. Also, I will test it as both No Trade and Trade, though the only relevant (to my theorymonning) place where you'd want to evolve before Waterfall (Mt .Mortar has a Dragonscale but is locked behind Waterfall) is Clair so you can Draco Meteor her Kingdra.

If you have requests for future runs, feel free to hmu
 
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Okay, thanks to some help from Ryota (thanks very much to him), he was able to get me a save file with a level 25 Golem starting from Morty. This Golem was Serious nature, with 19/20/15/12/22/15 for IVs. I spent the last day testing it and generally level matching opponents, as outlined throughout the thread. I tested the bosses up to Pryce generally a ton and have lots of attempts with loads of different strategies. This is going to be a mammoth of a post, and unlike my other joke post, I have legitimate logs to back up my claims this time.

I didn't test Faulkner, Bugsy, or Whitney as we all know by this point Geodude is by far one of the absolute best options for them outside of Quilava.
Rocket / general mook thoughts: Only Golbat outspeed and trouble Golem thanks to Supersonic. Rollout misses and Magnitude RNG can be annoying, but Golem takes like no damage otherwise. Rollout generally carries you through most mooks, and Earthquake really helps when you get it later. Only things Golem really shouldn't fight are Grass types and Water types, but it can take pretty much everything else easy, helped along the fact you should be out-leveling most mooks anyway.

First attempt: Gastly used Lick, then Cursed turn 2 as I setup. Golem took out all but one Haunter as I died to Curse.

Second attempt: Gastly used Spite, then Lick. Rollout sweep.

Third attempt: Gastly used Curse, then Spite. Curlout turn two didn’t OHKO Gengar this time, so it seems to be a damage range. I died because of repeated Curse damage + Shadow Ball.

Fourth attempt: Gastly used Curse, then Mean Look. I again left Gengar alive in red and died.

Back at Morty with Hard Stone.
Fifth attempt: Gastly used I believe Spite, then Mean Look. I get the range on Gengar this time thanks to Hard Stone. Should be a sweep (missed this in my notes initially).

Sixth attempt: Gastly used I believe Lick, then Mean Look. Sweep once again.

Seventh attempt: Gastly used Curse, then Mean Look. Surprisingly, I lived the Curse damage after Gengar fainted and killed the first Haunter - so Lick damage from Gastly MAY make the difference, if it goes for it.
In tests gauging Lick, it seems to do between 1 to 3 damage.

Eighth attempt: Gastly used Mean Look, then Spite. I swept until the last Haunter, then I missed Rollout twice in a row. It did Curse and then some other move - regardless one Rollout finished it off.

Ninth attempt: Gastly used Curse, then Mean Look. Died after taking out three members again.

Tenth attempt: Gastly used Mean Look, then Spite. Rollout sweep.

Eleventh attempt: Gastly used Lick twice, paralyzing me on the second one. It used Spite next turn. Gengar went for Sucker Punch, doing 7 damage as I was paralyzed. Round one Curlout knocks it yellow and thus Sitrus Berry range - it looks like another Rollout would KO it even after Sitrus heals it. Shadow Ball seems to 2HKO. Gengar went for Sucker Punch THREE TIMES before it went Shadow Ball though, so you’d still have a chance of beating it. I lost due to hax though.

Twelfth attempt: Gastly used Spite, then Mean Look. Rollout sweep.

In total:
Golem died to Gengar (3/10)
Golem took three mons (4/10)
Golem swept (5/10)
So, on average, Golem should beat Morty or at least severely cripple him 2/3s of the time with just a little luck. In terms of stuff the latter bosses do to it, I see Morty as an outright sweep, and this is a key factor in helping mitigate its next few matchups.

First attempt: Rollout crit Zubat out. Even with Hard Stone, it seems Koffing looks like to range to OHKO if you don’t Curl first. Even then, Raticate is taken out by a second Rollout easily, and their attacks do nothing to you. Even with Smokescreen hax, this isn’t bad.

Second attempt: Tested without Hard Stone here. It seems Curling leaves you vulnerable to Zubat’s Confuse Ray. I snapped out of confusion turn two after hitting myself…and promptly missed Rollout, and then missed AGAIN as Zubat went for another Bite. Once I finally stop whiffing everything dies.

Only attempt: Even with the Intimidate debuff, Magnitude 8 OHKOs Drowzee and knocks Arbok to red. Dragonite took out Grimer while Arbok seems to want to Glare Dragonite. I whiffed Rollout on Murkrow as Dragonite used Thunder to kill. Gloom is the only threat here - Rollout without Curl does nothing and Mega Drain seems to finish you off (though I had like 20 damage of chip before this fight).

First attempt: From what I could ascertain on speedup toggle, Magnitude 6, then 9 seemed to 2HKO Primeape. Double Team is dumb here, but I was lucky enough to hit. Believe it or not, Magnitude 6, then Magnitude 10 knocked Poliwrath to red and thus Berry range, healing to about 1/3 HP. It spammed Focus Punch the first two turns, but then Hypnosis + Focus Punch OHKOed me.

Second attempt: Leer turn one this time, then Rock Slide - I THINK it was 6, then 9 that picked up the KO now. I think Magnitude 6, 8, then 10 beat Poliwrath and I believed Poliwrath used Focus Punch every turn.

Third attempt: Double Team into miss. I believe 8 this time knocked Primeape to low yellow, then another 8 killed it after it missed Slide. Poliwrath went for Body Slam while Magnitude 6 scratched it (no paralysis). Next turn 8 knocked it to Berry range and I got paralyzed. It FINALLY killed me with Surf after that.

**Dig attempts (to mitigate potential faulty eye misreads on Magnitude when testing, and for consistent damage)**

Fourth attempt: Rock Slide, then Focus Punch as I was underground. Dig solidly knocks Primeape to middle yellow, similar to Magnitude 8. This CAN cause Double Teams to stack up, but I hit both times. Surf from Wrath turn 1 killed (it outspeeds by the way).

Fifth attempt: Double Team first four turns. I missed Dig, then hit. I missed too much and died. Do note - it seems you live Primeape’s Focus Punch without Leer Defense drops. Looks like Magnitude is better here for consistent damage overall.

**Earthquake attempts (in case you kept a Geodude unevolved, note Golem is still 31, I TMed it on for convenience as I wanted Golem for Morty)**

Sixth attempt: Earthquake knocks Primeape to roughly red. After a couple EQs, I Polished on Focus Punch and died; must have missed a Leer while battling, oops lol

Seventh attempt: This time I Polish turn 1 on Leer. Sadly, Chuck gets one DT off, and after a Potion or so I miss on FP, cue death.

Eighth attempt: FP turn 1, cue heal after my EQ. I THEN Polish as he heals. He thankfully goes FP as I knock him to red, then kill.

I then find out Poliwrath is almost certainly a loss for Golem unless RNG really likes you - Earthquake is only a 3HKO as it misses Hypnosis (Chesto Berries could prevent this, though I’m not using them as I have no item).

I did win but I got good RNG. Poliwrath is knocked to yellow by Berry as it uses Body Slam (no paralysis) and a third EQ kills it. Judging by Earthquake’s damage, I think Dig might fall short of the 3HKO here, though I never got the latter off on Poliwrath).

Overall, you can beat Primeape but you are exceptionally unlikely to beat Poliwrath unless A) RNG really likes you or B) You have Earthquake (most people will not). Decent performance.

First attempt: Magnitude 6 OHKOs Magnemite, then Steelix comes out. Magnitude 6 on Steelix barely scratches it (does like 1/8th of its HP?) as it goes for Sandstorm. I get 6 again as Iron Tail hits - it does way too much damage to Golem here, doing 2/3s of your HP easily. I roll 6 a third time, procing Berry as Steelix misses. I FINALLY roll 9 and knock Steelix to red, but then he kills me as Iron Tail connects.

Second attempt: Magnitude 7 Magnemite OHKO. Magnitude 9 on Steelix (stronger than EQ at 110 power mind you) does 1/3 to Steelix as Iron Tail misses. 7 knocks it to Berry range as it heals to low green. 6 knocks it to low yellow as I die to Iron Tail.

Meme attempts with Fire Blast (no Choice Specs, mind you, and I overwrote Magnitude sometimes):
Third attempt: Fire Blast OHKOs Magnemite. Hilariously, I crit Steelix and it STILL lived Fire Blast at like one HP. Another Fire Blast kills. I whiff one Blast on Mite and kill next turn.

Fourth attempt: I X Accuracy on Magnemite: Supersonic has 55 accuracy so honestly this is pretty free. Fire Blast kill. Fire Blast knocks Steelix to yellow as it uses Sandstorm, but Sitrus heals it up to about the “35” in “Lv 35.” Fire Blast knocks it to red and I burn it as it goes for Screech. It heals as FB knocks it to low yellow, and I kill. Out of FB PP. Three Rollouts (without Curl) kill Magnemite, though I crit the last one.

Attempts with Specs Blast:
Fifth attempt: X Accuracy on Magnemite miss. FB kill. Specs Blast now knocks Steelix to low yellow, upon which it heals up to high yellow with Berry (think it missed Iron Tail or Screech). Thus, Fire Blast is a 2HKO (I crit the second one but I doubt it mattered).

Sixth attempt: X Accuracy on SonicBoom. This time Steelix uses Sandstorm and gets to low green from Berry. Another FB (no crit this time) kills, so the 2HKO seems assured even with slightly lower rolls than last time. I then finished the attempt off by switching to fodder and using Magnitude 8 on the second Magnemite, killing it.

Attempts with level 31 Earthquake TM:

Seventh attempt: OHKO on Magnemite. Does a third on Steelix as it uses Screech and I die next turn. Upon a Max Revive (testing purposes only for convenience) Earthquake does NOT score the 3HKO and she heals (think there was an Iron Tail miss too). She sets Sandstorm and I 3HKO now that Sitrus Berry is gone. Earthquake kills Magnemite.

Eighth attempt: Ended up the same way as last time, Screech into Iron Tail. I reset as it was obvious the results were likely to be similar to last time.

Dig probably wouldn’t mean much here. Overall Golem is pretty good for Jasmine, similar to Chuck. It can't really fight Steelix without Fire Blast (and this is the only time it's useful in the whole game for Golem, just note) but it absolutely stomps the Magnemite. Honestly, any decent team should have a good Water type for Steelix, so I don't consider Golem losing to it a huge issue.

First attempt: Guard Spec on Seel turn one to prevent Icy Wind Speed drops. Polish then Defense Curl, after three Icy Winds you should be at about 1/3s HP. First hit of Rollout knocks Seel to yellow as Icy Wind knocks me to 14 HP. Second Curlout kills next turn, and Dewgong…kills with Ice Shard. Was so close too.

Second attempt: I Guard Spec as Seel goes for Hail turn 1. I Defense Curl as Seel goes for Icy Wind, with Hail residual knocking me to 64 / 98 HP. Eventually Dewgong kills me again.

Third attempt: I go for the throat here, Defense Curl, then using Rollout, no Guard Spec., while it goes for Hail, then Rest / an Item (believe the former). Anyway, Rollout 2 OHKOs Seel from full, while I am at 62 / 98 HP. Dewgong comes in and Aurora Beam knocks me to 8 HP (thus a 2HKO) while third Curlout finishes it off, with Hail leaving me at 2 HP. Piloswine comes in and I die.

Fourth attempt: This time I try something different. I Rock Polish on Icy Wind, then use Rollout without setting up Defense Curl. It seems two no Curl Rollouts knock Seel to red, with the third OHKOing it (I am now at 34 HP and Dewgong kills).

Fifth attempt: No Polish, no Curl. Just Rollout. Seel uses Icy Wind, then Hail. I get a slightly higher roll putting it in range of Hail. Now at 70 HP from Hail chip, Dewgong comes in and Aurora Beam knocks me to 10 HP, while the third Rollout OHKOS it. Piloswine comes in and I die.

Sixth attempt: Guard Spec turn 1 on Icy Wind. Polish on a Wind miss. Defense Curl on Hail. Rollout knocks Seel to half. I miss and want to break my computer in two as he Hyper Potions I think. Die to Ice Shard.

Seventh attempt: Curlout no items. Die to Piloswine again.

Eighth attempt: Guard Spec., Rock Polish, Defense Curl. I then Hyper Potion. Rollout crits Seel out…and then, I miss.

Ninth attempt: Guard Spec on Icy Wind miss. I Polish as he crits. Glad to know the game really hates my guts. I Curl, now at 30 HP.

I think what happened next was I used X Accuracy, then healed. Seel crit Icy Wind as Guard Spec wore off (now at half HP) but I seemed to outspeed everything and kill at +1 Speed? Was the first sweep.

Tenth attempt: GS on Icy Wind, polish, then Curl, Now at 32 HP. X Accuracy, heal, then go for Rollout sweep, now at +1 Speed.

Eleventh attempt: Tried Polish, GS, then no Curl Rollout, died to Ice Shard.

At this point, I was like “well this matchup is honestly pretty garbage. Sure you kill the sea lions fairly easily, but it’s just so, so clunky. Then I remembered: Sitrus Berry. Sitrus Berry is fairly easy to get with minimal backtracking and pretty much every team is guaranteed to have both Togepi and Flash.

You simply Surf across the water in the south portion of the Ruins of Alph, go right through the open door, then up, use Flash on the back wall where it says “light”, boom, Sitrus Berry, no Rock Smash RNG involved (you can also get them by Rock Smashing for a Yellow Shard to trade to the guy in Violet City, but this is inefficient). This is also the only time in the game Golem really wants Sitrus Berry, to boot.

NEW ATTEMPTS WITH SITRUS BERRY:
First attempt: Guard Spec. on Icy Wind. I Rock Polish, now at 54 / 98 HP. Defense Curl on Icy Wind - I am taken to 56 HP, roughly the same before Icy Wind. Rollout time as Icy Wind takes me to 34 HP (no X Accuracy). Kill Seel. Kill Dewgong (no Ice Shard!) with a crit no less. Kill Piloswine and we have done it ladies and gentlemen.

Second attempt: GS on IW, RP on IW miss. Defense Curl, now at 56 HP. Icy Wind CRIT me to like 8 HP, with Sitrus healing me up to 32 HP. Mist wears off, Dewgong dies, Piloswine dies, we did it.

Third attempt: GS on IW, RP on IW hit, now at 56 HP, Defense Curl, am healed up to 60 HP. Rollout miss. Rollout hit next turn as he used Hail (!) leaving me at 26 HP as Dewgong came in. I hit Rollout (no Ice Shard) to kill Dewgong with Hail knocking me to 20 HP and kill Piloswine.

Fourth attempt: Same as usual until the turn I set up Curl, where Seel sets up Hail (I’m now at 50 HP, no Berry activated). Rollout kills and I’m now at 42 HP. Kill, then kill once more, ending the fight at 39 HP.

Fifth attempt: Curl is up, now at 58 HP from Berry. Seel sets up Hail as I Rollout to kill, having 46 HP as Dewgong comes in, then 40 as Piloswine comes in. I miss Rollout and die to Piloswine.

As a general note, my matchups start getting a bit more concise and less organized from here on, but it's still valuable data.

Hard Stone again. Lol Rollout miss, then SmokeScreen. I think we crit each other with Rollout and Sludge respectively (with him Poisoning me). I then miss Rollout and die. Next attempt I die to Koffing.

Yeah, Guard Spec is needed again here sadly (because of Smokescreen). It uses Sludge on Spec, I Defense Curl as it uses Smokescreen to no effect. I then miss Rollout with no Poison from Sludge. More Rollout misses later, Spec wears off and Koffing is at half HP. I kill with turn 1 Rollout. Weezing comes out and I miss Rollout AGAIN. I get Rollout going on Weezing but not even Hard Stone Curlout hit two kills Weezing after the first hit. Koffing comes out and I miss Rollout AGAIN (it’s a miracle I haven’t been poisoned, what is even going on?). I land Rollout, and then miss the second hit (is 90 accuracy secretly 60?) kill Koffing, kill the next Koffing, kill the fifth Koffing, and then kill the final Koffing. I ended with like…six Rollout PP depleted from this fight.

In another attempt, I swept four of his team even with two uses of Smokescreen. I somehow only missed Rollout once the entire matchup.

Conclusion: RNG / 10 (though like with Jasmine's Steelix, any Specs Surf user should wash away his team)

Even with some hax (read: me hitting myself literally every turn in confusion) you should be able to get up Defense Curl and Polish without healing. Outspeed and OHKO Golbat, Sneasel, Haunter (crit but doubt it mattered) and even Magnemite with Rollout. Even with a flinch, a Rollout miss, AND some crits from Golbat and loads of confusion hax on attempt 2, still did it without healing. Pretty easy.

First attempt: Hard Stone Rollout (no Curl) knocks Golbat to red, then kills it: hope you don’t get Bite flinches or Confuse Ray. Weezing goes Smokescreen and outspeeds, but Rollout 3 knocks it to mid-yellow. I got Smokescreened on, but still hit every Rollout.

Second attempt: I used Curl on Confuse Ray. Surprisingly, I snapped out of confusion in one turn and did not get Bite flinch, with Curlout 1 OHKOing Golbat. Curlout 2 does the same to Weezing as regular Rollout 3, so you don’t need Curl here. Much, much better than Petrel.

First attempt: Unfortunately, Golem does not outspeed Arbok, leading to potential Glare. Despite this, you still OHKO Arbok at -1 with EQ. Vileplume cleanly beats you: it 2HKOs with Mega Drain and -1 EQ does only 1/3.

Second attempt: I had no Glare and a crit EQ to OHKO Vileplume (!) so I got my first shot at Murkrow. Sadly I missed Rollout once so Murkrow's Night Shade took me out with it remaining at half HP.

Third attempt: I come into Murkrow paralyzed, no Attack debuff. Hard Stone Rollout leaves it in red. With a Cheri Berry you could beat Arbok and Murkrow fine but paralysis and Rollout missing could screw you over. Didn’t test this too much either, like with Proton, as it seemed clear cut (no use trying Rollout with paralysis when Plume outspeeds you).

First attempt: Rock Polish, Rollout (no Curl). You either knock Houndour to red or OHKO it with Rollout (I believe I OHKOed it this attempt.. Rollout 2 knocks Koffing to yellow, then Rollout 3 kills. Rollout 4 OHKOs Houndoom.

Second attempt: I knocked Houndour to red this time. Rollout 3 knocked Koffing to red, funnily. Rollout 5 obviously OHKOed Doom. Also, Earthquake OHKOs both Houndour and Houndoom, with not even Houndoom doing much to you. This matchup seems mostly free.

Using Togepi as Intimidate fodder in all attempts. I Rock Polish on Gyarados’s Dragon Rage - note this is a 3HKO as I have 115 HP. Healing up, I then go for Hard Stone Rollout, which knocks Clair to Hyper Potion range, second Curlout kills. Third Curlout kills Kingdra, fourth kills Dragonair, I then miss and faint.

Across other failed attempts, I learned confirming you absolutely need Curlout 3 for Kingdra, I crit Gyarados and Curlout 2 does not do it. Also, Kingdra lives Curlout 3 without Hard Stone.

Best play is Polish, Curl, Hyper Potion, Rollout, Rollout again to kill Gyarados, OHKO Kingdra, OHKO the others.

And also, Explosion does indeed OHKO Kingdra if you are level 38 (tested this twice). You just need it to either waste Hydro Pump’s 5 PP or get a lucky miss. 1v1ing either of the two Dragonair is borderline impossible since the one with Aqua Tail generally comes out first, outspeeds and 2HKOs you, and it is almost impossible to tell which one has Aqua Tail unless you send in something weak to Fire, as both are female and level 38. You 2HKO Dragonair with EQ. I didn't have the patience to test with Soft Sand here, but it looks like theory-wise they'd live an SS EQ only barely.

Generally, an all or nothing matchup, but a lot of things suck against Clair anyway, so even having a slight chance to sweep is better than nothing.

Curl, Polish, Rollout. Magneton is kinda annoying for a Rollout sweep. I missed it after I crit it down to red HP - though it missed Supersonic anyway. Finished it off with a fresh Rollout, then OHKOed Haunter. Kadabra and Typhlosion die easily, I miss the final Rollout on Golbat but a fresh one KOed it anyway.

Worth noting that even when things go wrong you still win. Until Rollout misses 900,000 times and I die in the second attempt (though I did have one misclick). Curlout 2 and 3 2HKOS Magneton, and also a fresh Curlout leaves Typhlosion alive. Still fairly easy.

At this point I was annoyed enough at all the misses, so I went and got Wide Lens from the Game Corner for 1,000 Coins. This only took me 15 minutes to get me 2,200 Coins (I continued for fun and got an extra 1,000 or so through pure good luck). I didn't abuse save states at all. Items and Dratini are allowed, just not the Game Corner TMs. There are matchups where Hard Stone does matter though, like with Clair. Overall, it should be a small detour, and with the bonus of Rollout being 99% accurate this way, it's basically trading fairly common misses for what is likely, at worst, a 30 minute investment.

Anyway, here are Golem's stats and moves before the Elite Four. I did TM Explosion on once (impossible before postgame, but I was curious how it does against Karen's Umbreon) but you should be running Rock Polish, Earthquake, Defense Curl, or Rollout unless your team has other answers to the Elite Four + Champion.

Golem Stats Pre-League, Level 43.png


Onto the final fights!

A sweep will ALWAYS be off the table here, given Xatu’s tendency to U-Turn to Slowbro which eats literally anything you do and OHKOs with Water Pulse. Even if you get lucky and Xatu does Me First Rollout, you are only 2HKOing it and then Slowbro comes in to screw you over. Jynx is a range to 2HKO with Psychic, you can't do anything because of Lovely Kiss it seems. Even if you do get Polish and Curl up on Jynx, Exeggutor comes in and lives Curlout 2 at half.

Really, your best bet here is 2HKOing the Level 42 Xatu with Rollout (the Level 41 one is ALSO 2HKOed by Rollout but you almost never get the chance unless it uses Me First). or OHKOing Jynx with Soft Sand EQ (it looks like it’s a range otherwise).

Will is by far Golem's weakest matchup in the entire game. Almost everywhere else it can kill at least one thing with ease, here is the only outright loss.

Koga (43): Ariados is annoying with Giga Drain, but you can 2HKO it with Hard Stone Rollout (no Curl). Forretress is 2HKOed by Rollout and you can even live Venomoth’s Psychic and Muk’s Gunk Shot if you are lucky, OHKOing the former with final Rollout and the latter with EQ (both outspeed). Crobat picks you off though.

Really, the better play is to lure in Forretress (any Fire type should do it). Rock Polish once, then Defense Curl as Forretress does nothing. If everything goes right, then you 3HKO Forretress, OHKO Venomoth, and OHKO Muk with Rollout. Crobat can be 2HKOed but you have to be lucky enough to land 2 Rollouts in a row, and Double Team can be annoying with that.

Absolutely the most optimal play is two Rock Polishes on Forretress, one Defense Curl, and then Earthquake for 1/3 on Forretress. You kill Forretress with two Rollouts, then the rest of the team, including Crobat, is outsped and OHKOed.

Good matchup, as most things have trouble killing Koga quickly.

Rock Polish as Hitmontop uses Dig, then OHKO it when it is underground. Hitmonlee looks like a roll to OHKO with Earthquake. If you get Swaggered, heal it off on Hitmonchan; Ice Punch is a 3HKO. +2 Attack Earthquake OHKOs Hitmonchan and even Machamp (!) as well as Onix. I did heal once IIRC, but that was because of a crit.

Trying with Soft Sand. OHKO Top underground, OHKO Lee, knock Chan to red. Unboosted Earthquake, while coming nowhere near enough to OHKO Machamp, is still pretty solid - doing 2/3’s to Machamp. it activates Sitrus Berry and lets Machamp only restore to 2/3’s HP. It’s a range to where a moderately strong teammate could finish the job. Note you seem to outspeed Machamp even without a Rock Polish!

Most optimal if you get Swaggered here (you can get a Persim Berry easily by trading a Bellsprout for Rocky the Onix in Violet City), but still an acceptable performance otherwise.

If you have it, Explosion OHKOs Umbreon (!!!), though it unfortunately can outspeed and set up Double Team / Confuse Ray first (I never saw it use Confuse Ray though). Soft Sand EQ seems to 3HKO it. Don’t try it though - Karen will switch in Gengar and Focus Blast for the OHKO. Earthquake OHKOs Houndoom (seems to Nasty Plot) but Vileplume sadly outspeeds and OHKOs with Petal Dance. On the other hand, 1v1s Murkrow easily, 2HKOing it with Rollout.

Overall, only a decent matchup, but potentially killing Umbreon is HUGE. Also, it should easily take Houndoom and Murkrow. Vileplume and Gengar are generally kinda weaksauce outside of killing Golem and can be beaten by teammates.

Golem is never fighting Gyarados because it has Waterfall. Lure in Aerodactyl with something weak to Rock. For some reason, Aerodactyl seems content with spamming Crunch, which is almost never threatening you - he crit me AND got a Defense drop on the second Crunch, and even then I STILL lived another one.

Set up a Defense Curl and then a Polish, then Rollout twice through Aerodactyl and then the three Dragonite, most of whom you should hopefully outspeed (Aerodactyl is debatable though, but you can easily tank another Crunch). Finish Lance off by a fresh Rollout on Charizard. Pretty guaranteed sweep, and what cements Golem as an S.

So, what are my serious thoughts overall on Golem compared to the other S tiers?

While I haven't tested Red Gyarados almost ever so I can't speak for it, I definitely remember Alakazam (I didn't use Focus Blast when I used mine) being pretty powerful. Even using it casually with Charge Beam from the lottery, I do remember Zam putting in a lot of work, being generally a hard hitter and slight failings being compensated for the fact it easily sweeps two Elite Four members and can do some decent damage to Lance. I might use both down the line even.

As for Golem itself, it has an unprecedented run throughout the first half of the game, sweeping the first four Gym Leaders (something no other mon can do) pretty easily. Midgame it definitely takes a hit; it can't quite sweep whole teams anymore outright (Chuck/Jasmine) or requires literally everything going perfect for it / a heal and some items (Pryce / Clair). I don't consider Chuck and Jasmine too notable to have some slight struggles with, as everyone has problems with Chuck's RNG regardless of team, and Jasmine is by far the easiest boss overall. Rollout misses and Magnitude RNG can be annoying midgame, but that would've been mitigated if I got Wide Lens first thing.

Pryce and Clair is also generally where a lot of top tier teams struggle too outside some things that a casual probably wouldn't consider (Thunderdance strategies for Lanturn / Gyarados or Machamp / Heracross, the latter of which is a Headbutt only mon). Clair is really only handled by like...Slowking and maybe Lanturn, to my knowledge? Everything pretty much has to go perfect for Golem there and generally you kind of have to think outside the box for both for Golem to have a shot at sweeping in both matchups.

As for the League, even at worst, I think Golem turns in an acceptable performance, taking generally two mons a team save Will, and more or less taking out half of Koga's team, if not sweeping everything but Ariados.

Sweeping Lance generally makes up for Golem's slight failings elsewhere. While Golem isn't the S in the sense of USUM Hawlucha or BW1 / BW2 Darmanitan where you basically have to try to lose with them, the sheer amount of matchups it trivializes makes it an essential part of any HGSS run, and given the other top tiers, especially the A ranks, fail in generally most of the same areas Golem does, I think Golem is overall a notch above them. Examples:

-Alakaam, similar to Rollout misses, has to rely on Focus Blast in at least three matchups to my memory from Ryota's matchups.
-Both Feraligatr and Typhlosion kinda suck against Pryce, Clair, and Lance and aren't sweeping them.
-Heracross has fantastic gyms but falls off at the Elite Four.

Of all of these, only Cyndaquil matches Geodude's early availability and has a comparable performance Gym-wise, and while it does sweep in most of the same places Geodude does gym wise, Typhlosion is absolutely useless against Clair and Lance, whereas Geodude can at least both sweep with support / positioning. Even then, Geodude arguably beats Faulkner and Morty better than the Cyndaquil line.

TLDR:
-Golem is a mon that crushes the first half of the game.
-Only needs Wide Lens, which is minimal investment as getting 1,000 Coins isn't too bad.
-While less stellar during the second half, the only time Golem is completely useless is against Will. Pryce and Clair give it some trouble, but otherwise Golem easily takes 2 / 3 team members of most rosters.
-Rock/Ground is a good typing earlygame, shrugging off Normal moves.
-Slowness leaves it vulnerable to status, but Golem has the bulk to take loads of hits in return, and Rock Polish can mitigate Speed.
-Sweeps Lance (generally unheard of) very easily if you lure in Aerodactyl.

Geodude (trade) deserves S tier.

also Mareep and Rocky run is coming...eventually, just need the motivation.
 
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Ryota Mitarai

Shrektimus Prime
is a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis a Top Smogon Media Contributor
did a run with Nidos / Mr. Mime / Horsea

Nidos are level 19

Nidorino: the only way to win here is spam healing items (Stomp is a 3HKO) and use Focus Energy and hope you land crits.
Nidorina: it can just spam Leer and heal, as it's immune to Attract, though it's 3HKOed by Stomp. If you last long enough, you can also poison with Poison Point.


Nidoking is level 22, Queen is 23 to learn Bite.

Nidoking: Dig OHKOs Magnemite and Quilava, though the latter is faster and can Smokescreen you. Zubat is put in red by Shadow Claw, while Gastly is OHKOed.
Nidoqueen: Dig OHKOs Magnemite and Quilava, though the latter is faster and Smokescreens you. Zubat is put in red by Body Slam and Gastly is OHKOed by Bite.


Nidos are level 25

Nidoking: outspeeds Gastly and Haunter and OHKOs them with Shadow Claw. It and Gengar 2HKO each other, with Gengar only being a win if it derps.
Nidoqueen: faster than Gastly but slower than the rest. However, Gengar is unable to 2HKO it, while your Shadow Claw 2HKOs (Bite doesn't), so Nidoqueen can reliably beat Gengar, unless it uses Hypnosis, which it almost never used against me.


Nidoqueen is level 27, rest is 28

Nidoking: Shadow Claw puts Zubat in red, Fire Blast OHKOs Koffing, and Dig puts Raticate in red while outspeeding all of them. Good matchup
Nidoqueen: Body Slam 2HKOs and 3HKOs Zubat and Koffing, but that's cause I haven't bothered to teach it elemental TMs yet, but they can help here. Raticate is 2HKOed by Dig and is an easy win if you do not have Smokescreen debuffs.
Mr. Mime: Specs Psybeam 2HKOs Raticate and OHKOs the rest.


for the purposes of obtaining Horsea, I had to fight Pryce underleveled. I later did him with some more normal levels (31), but the results were not too different from when I did underleveled, but that's likely cause 29 vs 31 isn't a huge gap.

Nidoqueen is level 30, rest is 29

Nidoking: only beats Seel, and even then, it depends on if you land Thunder. Thunder puts it in red. Dewgong is put in yellow and 2HKOs with Aurora Beam. Piloswine is a no-no. The only way to realistically win here is Specs Thunder to OHKO Seel and then land two Thunders in a row.
Nidoqueen: faces the same issues as Nidoking
Mr. Mime: It can easily deal with Seel as it can Substitute and ignore Icy Winds, which do not break Substitute immediately. Piloswine is easy to deal with if it uses Hail, as you can lock it in Hail with Encore and then weaken it gradually with Psybeam till you can KO it with Focus Blast. Dewgong is going to take some time if you do not have Charge Beam like I did (since I wanted to use Focus Blast, but I guess you can try capitalizing on SpA boosts) but if you can lock it into Ice Shard, you are gonna be able to take it down with a healing or two.


Mr. Mime is level 30, rest is 31

Nidoking: Dig 2HKOs Primeape, but that gives it a lot of time to set up Double Teams. Poliwrath is almost 2HKOed (berry factored in) by Thunder, but it also hits hard with Surf.
Nidoqueen: faces the same issues as Nidoking, though it can 3HKO Primeape with Body Slam, if needed.
Mr. Mime: Psybeam without Specs OHKOs Primeape on rolls. Poliwrath is 3HKOed. Against Poliwrath, set up a Substitute. If it goes for Hypnosis, Encore it and you have basically won.
Horsea: If you take Rain Dance and MysticWater, you can OHKO Primeape with MW Surf in rain, if you hit. Poliwrath is a big no. I haven't bothered to test a Kingdra here (I can level up to evolve), since Twister would be its strongest STAB and you'd be facing Hypnosis hax anyways.


everything is level 31

Nidos: both OHKO Magnemite with Dig and 2HKO Steelix with Fire Blast, fearing an Iron Tail after a Screech. The only difference is that King can OHKO Steelix with Specs Fire Blast, wheres Queen can't. Specs Surf 2HKOs everything instead, but you need to watch out for Supersonic hax.
Mr. Mime: Specs Focus Blast OHKOs everything. Potentially, you can just not run Specs, set up Sub, Encore Magnemite into TWave and weaken it with Psybeam to preserve Focus Blast PP, but Steelix is not OHKOed by it and you need to Focus Blast the second Magnemite as well.
Horsea: outspeeds and OHKOs everything with Specs Surf.


everything is level 32

Nidos: Specs Surf OHKOs Koffing and 2HKOs the rest.
Mr. Mime: OHKOs everything with Specs Psybeam. Easy
Seadra: Specs Surf OHKOs Koffing and puts Weezing in red. If Weezing doesn't go for Smokescreen, your win is guaranteed.


Mr. Mime is level 32, rest is 33

Nidos: Thunder 2HKOs Golbat, Fire Blast 2HKOs Sneasel, and Dig OHKOs Magnemite and Quilava. Haunter is a trouble if you don't have Shadow Claw. The only difference is that Nidoking is faster than Quilava and thus does not get a Smokescreen in the face.
Mr. Mime: set up a Substitute against Golbat and lock it into Confuse Ray and then take it out. Haunter is faster, but doesn't damage you, since it attacks the Substitute, and you OHKO it with Psybeam. Against Sneasel, you can survive a Faint Attack and OHKO with Focus Blast. Against Magnemite, you can just OHKO it with Focus Blast. Against Quilava, if you are healthy, just Substitute and lock it into Smokescreen and deal with it.
Seadra: set up against Golbat and OHKO it with MW Surf (Specs Surf only gets it on rolls) and kill Magnemite. Due to the fact you have no Swift Swim as Seadra, Haunter outspeeds and kills you with Shadow Ball. Switch out and OHKO it. Quilava is outsped and OHKOed by MW Surf, while Sneasel is 2HKOed, but requires healing. If you are Kingdra, you can probably kill Haunter without needing to switch out


everything is level 34

Nidos: Specs Surf 2HKOs everything
Mr. Mime: Specs Psybeam kills everything
Seadra: Specs Surf OHKOs everything


same levels but Mr. Mime is level 35

Nidos: Dig 2HKOs Arbok due to Intimidate. Murkrow is OHKOed by Thunder and Vileplume is 2HKOed by Fire Blast.
Mr. Mime: Psybeam OHKOs Arbok and outspeeds it. Murkrow is OHKOed by Focus Blast on rolls. Vileplume is put in red by Psybeam, it's a good idea to set up a Substitute.
Seadra: Specs Surf kills Arbok and Murkrow.


same levels

Nidos: Specs Surf OHKOs Houndour and 2HKOs the rest. Dig also 2HKOs Houndoom. Houndoom 3HKOs Nidos
Mr. Mime: Specs Focus Blast OHKOs Houndour line, but Houndoom is faster and can flinch you (though I had Filter so I lived a hit)
Seadra: Specs Surf OHKOs everything, though Houndoom is faster and can flinch you (though it's a 3HKO)


everything is level 36

Nidos: Specs Blizzard OHKOs Dragonair. Thunder fails to OHKO Gyara unless it's Specs.
Mr. Mime: beats the Dragonairs. Outspeed and Substitute against one of them and lock them into TWave, as you 4HKO them with Psybeam. The other one will still spam Twave and thus cna be taken out with no worries.
Seadra: Specs Blizzard outspeeds and OHKOs Dragonair. However, DPulse is a 2HKO, so hope you don't miss.
Kingdra: if you survive a Dragon Pulse (or you have a teammate set up Rain for you to outspeed), you will OHKO it with Draco Meteor. Furthermore, without rain, you outspeed the next Dragonair and OHKO it too.


everything is level 39

Nidos: Earthquake 2HKOs Sneasel and Typhlosion, but the latter 2HKOs with Lava Plume if it lands a burn the first time. Haunter and Kadabra are problematic, as both are faster. Kadabra also can KO you with Psybeam if weakened. Golbat is 2HKOed by Thunder but can be annoying with Confuse Ray. Magneton is easy.
Mr. Mime: Sneasel dies to Focus Blast, but you take some damage. Typhlosion generally beats you due to Lava Plume. Haunter is faster and can KO you with Shadow Ball if you are not behind a Substitute. Haunter and Magneton can be used as Substitute and Encore baits and be defeated. Kadabra
Seadra/Kingdra: MW Surf in rain OHKOs Sneasel, Magneton, Kadabra, and Golbat (Golbat is rolls). Haunter is generally faster and KOs you with Shadow Ball if you faced Sneasel. Typhlosion will KO you with Swift if you took damage from Kadabra's Psybeam. Kingdra never has to switch out, as it can abuse Swift Swim and Rain Dance, while living a Shadow Ball from Haunter if it has to reset up.


everything is level 42

Nidos: bad for this matchup. They can beat Slowbro by 2HKOing it with Specs Shadow Ball and 1v1 Eggy if they have taken no damage, but Queen herself barely survives any Psychic from them. Not to mention they are outsped by Xatu and Jynx.
Mr. Mime: set up a Substitute against Xatu #1. Most of his team members spam hax moves like idiots, so you can slowly take them down. Jynx is faster and can potentially go for Ice Punch, breaking your Sub. Against Slowbro, Encore it into Curse and it's done. It is worth mentioning that you need to reteach Focus Blast if you are gonna use it.
Seadra: Specs Blizzard OHKOs the two Xatu and Eggy. Jynx is faster and can put you to sleep. Do not bother with Slowbro.. Note that you are getting 2HKOed at worst by special attacks, so missing is very fatal
Kingdra: MW Hydro Pump in rain OHKOs Xatu and Jynx (outspeeding the latter), with Eggy being KOed after a Dragon Pulse. Slowbro seems to be a 2HKO on rolls. Great matchup if you are lucky.


Mr. Mime is level 43

Nidos: Earthquake 2HKOs Ariados, Muk, and Venomoth, with Muk being put in red. Forry can be handled easily if you kept your Fire Blast. Crobat is 2HKOed by Thunder, but gl hitting it with those evasions.
Mr. Mime: Specs Psychic OHKOs the Poison-types, with Crobat being the only one that outspeeds. Forry is 3HKOed, but eats your Psychic PPs.
Seadra/Kingdra: MW Surf in rain is an OHKO on Ariados. MW Hydro Pump in rain OHKOs Forry. Muk survives a Hydro Pump and can become annoying with Gunk Shot or Minimize. Venomoth is OHKOed by MW Hydro Pump in rain. Crobat is put in red by the same combo, but Kingdra has the edge here, due to outspeeding and thus dealing with less evasion.


Same levels

Nidos: spam Surf on Top till it goes for Dig and KO with Earthquake. Onix is outsped and OHKOed by Surf. Lee and Chan are 2HKOed by Earthquake. The former is put in red and can Swagger you, while the latter is slower, but 2HKOs with Ice Punch. If you are at full, you can potentially 1v1 Machamp, by 3HKOing with Earthquake (not minding berry) and healing, as Machamp also 3HKOs.
Mr. Mime: Specs Psychic OHKOs everything bar Machamp, which 2HKOs with Rock Slide. Lee is faster and can KO you with HJK if you took a Rock Slide.
Seadra/Kingdra: MW Surf on Hitmontop till it goes for Dig and set up rain to KO it. Onix dies to Surf easily and is outsped. The rest are 2HKOed even by MW Hydro Pump in rain, with Hitmonchan (Seadra only) and Lee hitting it hard. Machamp's No Guard makes Pump never miss against it. Machamp will likely KO you, as you will be weakened by a previous foe.


Mr. Mime is level 44

Nidos: Blizzard OHKOs Murkrow and 2HKOs Vileplume, though they do take quite some damage from Petal Dance. EQ from King OHKOs Doom, while Queen puts it in red. Gengar is 3HKOed by Shadow Ball.
Mr. Mime: Specs Psychic OHKOs Vileplume and Gengar. Focus Blast can hit hard the rest, but you need to buy another TM if you used Shadow Ball over it.
Seadra/Kingdra: MW Surf in rain OHKOs Murkrow and Houndoom, though, for Seadra, the latter puts it at like 10 HP from full, so you gotta be careful. Gengar is 2HKOed by MW Surf and OHKOed by Hydro Pump if there's rain. Umbreon is 2HKOed by MW Hydro Pump in rain, but *evasion*. Note that Seadra does not outspeed Gengar and Murkrow. Kingdra can, with Swift Swim.


same levels

Nidos: Specs Blizzard OHKOs Dnite that it hits, but level 50 one OHKOs with Outrage, while Dragon Rush puts them in red
Mr. Mime: can potentially lock a DNite into Safeguard if it predicts it. Doesn't do much, though
Seadra: dies to Outrage or Thunder, but if it manages to hit, Specs Blizzard kills a DNite that it hits. Also OHKOs Zard and Aerodactyl, if it manages to live an attack of theirs.
Kingdra: outsped and killed by Dragon moves, but if it has rain or Rush misses, it can OHKO one DNite with Specs Draco Meteor. Specs Surf also OHKOs Aerodactyl, along with Zard in rain, though it needs rain to outspeed both.


nominations:

Mr. Mime -> C
The issue with Mr. Mime is that obtaining it is not an easy task. With Safari Ball's boosted catch modifier, there's only around 17% chance to catch a Mr. Mme with no modifiers that can make it more likely to flee. Also, while it can cheese out many fights with Encore and Substitute, it still takes some time to actually win them. I think C is more fit for it

e: I just did some research and turns out that you only get 6 zones at random before you can customize (I was always under the impression they were fixed). There are 10 default layouts and forest appears in 5 of them. I may change my nom after thinking it for a bit. This is probably why most things will end up in D-tier at best and I think Mr. Mime may not be an exception at all.

Nidos -> C (though open for arguments to B)
I honestly found both Nidos to be super underwhelming. In spite of the vast amount of TMs that I taught them, I always felt they were very unreliable. And both suffer greatly from a 4MSS. I think the fact that when you require so many TMs to take out as many foes as possible and still prove mediocre and/or unreliable greatly affects my opinion on what tier they should be. I did not use Sludge Bomb, because I didn't think it'd have changed a lot. Regardless, I may be underselling them more than they deserve, so I am open for arguments to B, but I do not think they deserve A-tier at all. I want to mention that their performance is very similar and I think should be bundled in the same tier. Only notable differences are that Queen takes care of Morty's Gengar, while King takes care of Karen's Houndoom.


Horsea (merge) -> leaning towards D

As stated, in order to obtain Horsea as early as possible, you need to beat Pryce first, which, depending on your team, may be very detrimental. Although Kingdra has a good matchup against Clair, you need to hunt for a Dragonscale, you barely live a Dragon Pulse, and Meteor can miss anyways. In the end-game, they are very reliant on Hydro Pump to claim OHKOs and, on top of that, they need rain. While Kingdra kills a bit more than Seadra, you need to backtrack all the way to Mt. Mortar to get a Dragonscale in the normal way. Thus, I think they belong to D-tier, though they don't really underperform in terms of sheer power than other Water-types.


Next run, I am gonna give a try to Sandshrew and Billy the Voltorb. I may grab some Safari mons and will make my own small tier list with preliminary tiers, based on experience, knowledge of game, and research.
 
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Ryota Mitarai

Shrektimus Prime
is a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis a Top Smogon Media Contributor
ok so my next team is going to be Sandshrew / Billy the Voltorb / Murkrow / Clefairy with Chikorita as starter. As I mentioned earlier, I wanted to compile a preliminary list for Safari mons that can be used as a useful reference. So here's how it goes:

How Safari availability hurts a Pokemon
HGSS's Safari Zone has, in total, 12 areas with their own selection of Pokemon. However, when the player first reaches Safari Zone, they get one of the ten possible default layouts, each having 6 areas. All areas bar Rocky Beach and Desert are guaranteed to appear in at least one of the ten layouts. All default layouts have Peak area as the starting area, but that area has nothing notable that can be caught exclusively there. Bulbapedia has a list of the ten layouts that the player can receive.

There's one thing that makes a Pokemon's availability bad here; you have no means of selecting what area you get initially. The only way to customize the layout with whatever areas you want is to complete Baoba's first test and then wait three game-play hours so you can get the option. Given that all areas bar Peak are not guaranteed to appear the first time (with Rocky Beach and Desert being impossible), some Pokemon whose most optimal (or only) availabillity is through the Safari Zone, may either be available immediately or available after three hours of playing.

I wanted to check at what point the default layout is determined. After using walk through wall cheat codes and arrived at the route before Safari Zone, I restarted few times and always ended up with the same layout. Unless I got something wrong, it looks like the default layout is determined the moment you start your game, meaning you are unable to reasonably manipulate the default layout. I also tried another save file and, under the same circumstances, the layout there was different, which further suggests that the layout is determined at the start of the game.

Pokemon "of interest"
As stated, some Pokemon either have Safari Zone as their most optimal availability (thus they otherwise come too late) or is the only way to obtain them before the post-game. Peak and Wetland areas have nothing interesting in there that'd warrant catching something from there when you can catch it elsewhere.

below are Pokemon by areas and my preliminary tier for them, which may change if I find a reason to test them

Desert
Cubone - E-tier (Desert is only available after three hours of playing, so I think this is an easy E-tier, unless we can throw non-gimmick things in F-tier)

Plains
Smeargle - given Smeargle can reasonably be considered a gimmick, I think dropping this down to F would be very reasonable

Meadow
Clefairy - D-tier. Moon Stone can be obtained after obtaining Surf, so it's not really punished here (Nidos can also use that, but lose out on Morty matchup) and TM learnset can allow it to hit some opponents hard. To be tested
Jigglypuff - D-tier (doesn't seem all different from Clefairy, though I may have to try DCurl + Rollout, but it might end up like Marill)

Forest
Mr. Mime - going to retract my previous nomination and nominate Mr. Mime to D, after gaining better understanding of how Safari Zone works.

Swamp
Jigglypuff - this makes Jigglypuff the most likely Safari mon you will be able to obtain, as you need one out of two areas.
Murkrow - to be tested, leaning towards E.

Marshland
Grimer - E-tier (its slowness and late evo will very likely cause problems, though Fire Blast + Sludge Bomb could help)

Mountain
Larvitar - E-tier (In the standard write-up format, Larvitar literally checks "negative" on all points)
Lickitung - null (added later when I caught the mistake)

Rocky Beach
Doduo - E-tier (there's a trade Dodrio in Blackthorn, but that one requires you raising a female Dratini to level 30. And Dratini levels up slowly, so....). Rocky Beach also needs three hours, so auto E!

Wasteland
Kangaskhan - D-tier (I have used Kangaskhan, so this isn't so much a preliminary tier as much as an official nomination. Feel free to test it, if you want to)

Savannah
Rhyhorn - E-tier (I wonder if Larvitar or Rhyhorn is the worse one....)


REMINDER: Most tiers are preliminary. Bar Smeargle, Cubone, Larvitar, Rhyhorn, Doduo, and Kangaskhan, I am planning on testing them to confirm the tiers.


fyi I forgot to upload IVs for my Pokemon of last run. I will upload them at the end of the post, if I do not forget.

Sandshrew(14-15): Rock Tomb OHKOs Zubat. If you are at level 15, you can just spam Swift and ignore Koffing's Smokescreens.


Sandshrew(17): Rock Tomb 2HKOs Scyther, although its U-turn is a 3HKO and becomes a 2HKO after a Leer or with a crit. It can also beat the cacoons, if it wants to, but they are not notable.


Sandshrew(18): Rock Tomb OHKOs Zubat and 2HKOs the rest. Gastly can cripple it with Curse and Quilava has Smokescreen. Not a reliable matchup


I tried three different levels: 19, 21, and 22. 19 is Miltank's level, 21 is when it learns Rollout, 22 is when it evolves.

at level 19: sucks really hard. Headbutt alone is a 3HKO on Clefairy. And Miltank is Miltank

at level 21: if it's female, it can DCurl and Rollout. If everything goes okay, Miltank will get OHKOed by the first Rollout that hits it. The way to do so is set up DCurl, use a Headbutt on Clefairy, and then click Rollout. It will take 3 Rollouts due to her healing Clefairy to take it out. Then Miltank dies should you not miss or it doesn't flinch you.

at level 22: matchup is actually worse. As DCurl Rollout no longer fails to 2HKO due to healing, you need to hit Miltank twice with Rollout to knock it out, increasing the chances of a flinch putting a stop to your sweep.

all in all, Sandshrew performs best at level 21, aka unevolved and with Rollout.


Sandslash(23): Dig OHKOs Magnemite and Quilava, while Shadow Claw OHKOs Gastly and 2HKOs Zubat. You are outsped by everything, though, so you are reliant on haxless move choices.

Voltorb(22): Thunder OHKOs Gastly and Zubat and 2HKOs the rest. Spark on its own fails to OHKO Zubat and Gastly. Not a great matchup, imo.


Sandslash(25): Shadow Claw OHKOs everything bar Gengar, though you only outspeed Gastly. If you want to, you could try DCurl + Rollout here, as Rollout #3 OHKOs Gengar. However, Gengar's Shadow Ball is an OHKO after a Curse and the Haunter can also status you and make your life worse.

Voltorb(25): Thunder OHKOs Gastly and 2HKOs Haunter. Gengar always kills it. I know it learns Charge Beam at level 26, but there's still status to worry about. Not a reliable matchup


Sandslash(27): set up DCurl and click Rollout. gg

Voltorb(27): spam Specs Charge Beam and you win

Murkrow(27): not super reliable here. Wing Attack 2HKOs Rattata, while Night Shade 2HKOs Koffing. Raticate and Murkrow 3HKO each other and Smokescreen debuffs from Koffing can prove fatal here. Avoid Koffing, if needed

Clefable(27): Strength 2HKOs Rattata and 3HKOs Raticate, while Fire Blast OHKOs Koffing. You have the bulk to survive many hits, should you have to.


Sandslash(30): terrible. Dig allows Primeape to spam Double Team and Poliwrath is an obvious matchup.

Electrode(30): Specs Thunder OHKOs both of his Pokemon. Specs Charge Beam can also be used, but it only 2HKOs Primeape if the first hit gets a boost. Poliwrath also manages to live a +2 Specs Charge Beam and if it Hypnosises you, it can OHKO you on rolls with Focus Punch.

Murkrow(30): Wing Attack 2HKOs Primeape. However, Primeape is faster and 2HKOs with Rock Slide. Poliwrath takes a while to be taken down and can also Hypnosis you, though you are faster and can Taunt it. However, Surf is still a 2HKO, making the Chuck matchup unreliable.

Clefable(30): Thunder 2HKOs Primeape and, depending on if you are holding Specs, 2HKOs or 3HKOs Poliwrath. I did not try Rain Dance here, as that'd dig Clefable further in rankings for having to side/backtrack so much in order to make it usable for more matchups.


Sandslash(30): outspeeds everything on her team. Dig OHKOs Magnemite with no problems. While Steelix is annoying, it sets u Sandstorm, triggering Sand Veil, increasing the chances of Iron Tail missing. Dig is a 4HKO without the berry on Steelix.

Electrode(30): Specs Thunder 2HKOs Magnemite, but they can be annoying with Thunder Wave. If you kept Screech, you can use it on Steelix to assist a teammate.

Murkrow(30): at most, it can spread damage with Night Shade, but other than that, *insert J. Jonah Jamison laugh*

Clefable(30): Specs Fire Blast OHKOs Magnemite and almost OHKOs Steelix.


Sandslash(31): not great. Icy Wind and Aurora Beam already cripple it to hell and there's no chance you even get past Piloswine

Electrode(31): it can beat Seel and Dewgong with Charge Beam spam, even if it's not holding Specs. Piloswine is not beatable, but can be Screeched for a teammate.

Murkrow(31): Murkrow cannot even get past Seel. Talk about uselessness.

Clefable(31): Thunder OHKOs Seel and 2HKOs Dewgong with Specs. If not holding Specs, Seel is not OHKOed. Piloswine is 2HKOed or 3HKOed by Fire Blast, depending on if it's holding Specs. If not holding Specs, you can cripple something with Encore and have a teammate assist, if necessary.


Current thoughts so far:

Sandslash
Sandshrew starts out rough. Its only way to beat route trainers is with Scratch and Rock Tomb, which is not good. However, once it gets Headbutt and Dig, it gets better in that aspect. Sandshrew, funnily, is not bad for Bugsy and Whitney, though both are reliant on not missing (Bugsy, particularly, cause no Wide Lens available, though I did not use the item at any point). Sandslash also can be good for Morty, but its Speed wil cause it problems. Bar Jasmine's Magnemites, its mid-game from Morty onwards is not impressive. It can beat Steelix if super lucky, but eh. I am leaning towards D or C, I don't think it deserves B at all.

Electrode
Leaning towards C-tier. Voltorb phase, while short due to boosted Exp., is very unreliable, as it needs to rely on Thunder and Spark, for most parts. Electrode is impressive for Pryce, if you do not mind covering Piloswine with something else, and Screech can help with aces that it cannot beat, but Chuck matchup being somewhat unreliable does knock it in viability. Though B-tier isn't impossible, but I want to see a better performance. Getting Charge Beam naturally is great, though.

Murkrow
E-tier. It's got no reliable matchups whatsoever. If F-tier wasn't gimmick tier, I'd suggest throwing it there too.

Clefable
Leaning towards E-tier. Clefable has been super unimpressive and being reliant on inaccurate moves hurts it greatly.

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(Psypoke was a bitch at the time I made this one)

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(Nidos have the same IV spread)


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(NOTE: Clefable has a higher SpA from Gen 6 onwards, so assume the IV is a bit higher. Voltorb IVs are not posted, as the Billy ones are fixed)
 
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Are we not taking the Pokewalker into account for this list? I can see why you wouldn’t, but it could potentially boost the fortunes of some Pokémon.

Also, I highly doubt this will be the case, but do we take the fact some Pokémon can evolve if the proper evolution item is traded over (such as Murkrow or Togekiss)?
 

Ryota Mitarai

Shrektimus Prime
is a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis a Top Smogon Media Contributor
Are we not taking the Pokewalker into account for this list? I can see why you wouldn’t, but it could potentially boost the fortunes of some Pokémon.
I don't think we ever reached a consensus on this regard, but personally, I think sumwun brought a good point against it in that its usefulness varies on your schedule and lifestyle (and if we were to take into consideration the COVID-19 outbreak, its usefulness varies even more). I can see why some would want to include it, but I think the only way for Pokewalker to be properly tiered is to arbitrarily (at least in my opinion, it'd be arbitrary) decide how to treat it as availability (do we assume that the reader can just use Pokewalker while going to school / work, etc. and assume that there's no COVID-19 outbreak or we take Pokewalker availability as a sort of negative thing, like Safari Zone, so we'd sanction a tier for that).

Also, I highly doubt this will be the case, but do we take the fact some Pokémon can evolve if the proper evolution item is traded over (such as Murkrow or Togekiss)?
Trading is generally considered only to evolve Kadabra and friends and not for outside help. It does mean that we have to deal with Murkrow and Togetic as the main basis of their ranks, but I don't think it's the end of the world. So I doubt that would be considered

Note that the Pokewalker thing is only my personal stance and does not represent any official decision / consensus / etc.
 
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I feel like doing another run. I'm using Chikorita, Tentacool (earliest available version), Pineco and Stantler.

Chikorita (15): It 2HKO's Pidgey reliably. On its own, it can't get through roost spam without a crit. However, if you have screech support from Rocky, you can OHKO Pidgeotto on a turn where it uses roost. You need to land two screeches to do this, and Rocky can take three gusts before going down. Using a second switch fodder gives Rocky at least three chances to land two schreeches, which makes it pretty reliable. With the support from Rocky, I'd say the matchup is pretty good actually.

Now, I feel like this does need some further discussion. I realise that it is a bit unfair to say Chikorita has a good matchup against Falkner even though it doesn't actually do all that well without the support. I only bring Rocky up because it has a purpose beyond playing support. I always get Rocky as my rock smash slave, regardless of the type of run, because it comes with a free persim berry. Can we factor in support from a Pokemon that we assume is part of almost everyone's team anyway?

An even better example is Kenya. Kenya is a powerful Pokemon that you get with literally no opportunity cost at all, and it serves an important role as a fly slave. There is no reason not to take Kenya with you. Now, can we use Fearow against Whitney and Morty as a support Pokemon (leer bot)? Needing support isn't really a good look for a Pokemon, but if the Pokemon that it needs support from is going to be on your team anyway, it effectively doesn't matter for effeciency. I can already tell you that Bayleef can reliably beat Whitney with leer support from Fearow. Can we therfore say that Bayleef has a good matchup against Whitney? I think this is an interesting question and I'm curious to see what others think of it.

I have already seen another example of this principle used somewhere else in the thread. ceal mentioned how Raticate can potentially sweep Lance if you have an intimidate user on your team. He gave the argument that we get a Gyarados handed on a silver platter, which is the exact same situation as with Kenya. I think that even if we don't factor these support Pokemon into the ranking of the Pokemon that needs the support directly, it's still at least worth mentioning when a Pokemon can do something extraordinary if they do recieve the support they need to do that.

Bayleef (19): it can tank TWO u-turns with a reflect up, which is pretty impressive. It can't actually deal any damage back to Scyther though. It beats the cocoons reliably, and they are easy to set reflect up on. Overall, not too good, but reflect is useful support.

Tentacool (16): Scyther 2HKO's with quick attack, and it usually doesn't waste time on leer or focus energy. Acid doesn't deal much damage, so your best bet is actually gambling on super sonic. It does beat the cocoons, but that's not very notable. So in short, pretty bad...

Bayleef (21): outspeeds and 2HKO's Clefairy with razor leaf. Bayleef can shut Miltank down hard with reflect and especially growl. It can't break through milk drink spam without leer or screech support though. Still, it's a good matchup.

Tentacool (19): it can get rid of Miltanks lum berry with toxic spikes, which makes it easier for a teammate to cripple it. Bubblebeam 3HKO's Clefairy. Tentacool is helpless against Miltank. Pretty bad again.

Pineco (17): bug bite 3HKO's Clefairy. It can take two stomps, but with a better IV and/or a sitrus berry, it can take three or even four stomps before going down. selfdestruct does about 75%, which is one way to deal with Miltank, I guess. Pineco can also stop rollout with protect and it can get rid of Miltanks lum berry with bug bite. So overall, pretty good actually.

Stantler (17): it outspeeds 2HKO's Clefairy with headbutt. It can deal with Miltank if you continually switch it in and then use leer, but this takes a while and it requires healing. Pretty good matchup.

Bayleef (22): 3HKO's Ghastly with razor leaf or magical leaf. Gengar almost always uses mean look before knocking you into overgrow range with shadow ball, which allows Bayleef to deplete about 50% of Gengars HP with a STAB move. It can do some chip damage to the haunters as well, but it has to rely on luck to actually beat anything but Ghastly. Not great.

Tentacool (21): surf OHKO's Ghastly and it barely 2HKO's the haunters. You can beat all of these without healing with a chesto berry equipped. Surf is a 5HKO on Gengar, counting the sitrus berry, while shadow ball and sucker punch 2HKO. Pretty good matchup overall.

Pineo (21): Payback OHKO's Ghastly and the first Haunter. It's a range on the lv 23 haunter. With some luck and a chesto berry, it can beat all of these consecutively. Gengar OHKO's with shadow ball. Pretty good matchup as well.

Stantler (21): 2HKO´s Ghastly and the first first Haunter. Astonish is a 3HKO on the second Haunter and a 5HKO on Gengar, counting the sitrus berry. Gengar can´t touch Stantler at all, so you can safely take it out (use leer to make this faster). The Haunter with dream eater is the only realy threat, though you can beat is with a chesto berry. Might need some healing, but it's a good matchup overall.

Some thoughts:

Bayleef: it's doing fine. Major matchups haven't been great, but it still manages to be useful in some kind of way most of the time. It also has some good moments early on, like the sprout tower and Union cave.

Tentacool: don't get the route 32 version. It's early game is terrible, so you don't really miss out on any good matchups by just getting a post Morty Tentacruel.

Pineco: surprisingly decent so far. It has a decent STAB and decent coverage options. It also has two decent matchups against Whitney and Morty. Just decent!

Stantler: intimidate is useful as ever. It's pretty powerful so early on, but its movepool is a little lacking compared to most normal types. I will be using the calm mind varient with shadow ball and thunder/charge beam. Seems pretty fun.

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Since there's been a bit more discussion on it I wanna throw my hat in the ring and say that I believe Pokewalker shouldn't be considered for this list. Pokewalker is a huge time sink and unlike others present in the game like Pokeathalon, it requires many irl hours, which is a huge commitment to make. Since it's dependent on the player's life schedule, it may be either extremely inconvenient or straight up impossible for some people to do. If GC tms are banned due to being too inconvenient to get I don't think Pokewalker should be considered at all, it's that but way way worse.
 
You guys have made fair points against the Pokewalker, and I accept the decision to not factor it into tiering. I also want to make another point about it, speaking from personal experience - it can be surprisingly hard to get some Pokémon, since even without factoring in how long you need to walk for some of them (want an Elekid or early Murkrow? Hope you’ve got an hour to spare and then some), RNG can screw you over with the limited amount of attempts you can make (I for one never thought Magnemite would lead to to so much frustration).
 
Bayleef (29/30/32): I tested lv 29 and 30 Bayleef and lv 32 Meganium. At 29, specs magical leaf doesn't 2HKO Primeape. At lv 30 it becomes a range. Poliwrath is a 3HKO for both, though the lv 30 version outspeeds so it's a lot more consistant. Meganium OHKO's Poliwrath with specs petal dance so you don't have to deal with hypnosis at all. In short, Bayleef can definitely sweep, though it's not fully consistant. Evolving into Meganium makes the fight consistant.

Tentacool(29/30): 2HKO's Primeape with specs sludge bomb, though Tentacruel outspeeds while Tentacool doesn't. Tentacruel also comes so close to a OHKO that it triggers a potion (which is a good thing). Tentacool 4HKO's Poliwrath, counting the sitrus berry, but it gets 2HKO'd by body slam. Poliwrath rarely uses that move though, even prioritizing surf against Tentacool sometimes. Honestly, I think the AI just straight up rolls the dice on which move to use, strategy be damned. Tentacruel 3HKO's, which makes it more conistant. So same story as with Bayleef/qMeganium.

Pineco(29): if Primeape uses both leer/double team and rock slide once, you can take it out with bide (which bypasses accuracy btw). Same thing with Poliwrath. If it uses both body slam/hypnosis and surf, you can take it out as well. Obviously you need to switch and heal, and you also need a chesto berry to prevent sleep, as well as luck. Still, the matchup is much better than expected from Pinecone of all things.

Stantler(29): return is a 2HKO on Primeape, so you can beat it with some luck (or rather without really bad luck, it's pretty consistant really). Poliwrath is 4HKO'd by return, counting sitrus berry. If Poliwrath selects focus punch every time (one surf or body slam is fine as well), you can just run through Chuck's entire team by spamming return. You can also use specs thunder to 2HKO Poliwrath even through sitrus berry, but this is very risky for what I hope are obvious reasons. Bit inconsistant, but not bad all things considered.

Meganium (32): specs petal dance 2HKO's everything. You might need some luck and/or healing items for the Magnemite parafuse spam. Good matchup.

Tentacruel (30): OHKO's everything with specs surf

Pineco(30/31): it can OHKO the Magnemites with dig, but it only barely takes a thunderbolt, so you have to switch and heal to beat both. Pineco can take two iron tails with the help of a sitrus berry, so you can take it out with bide in a 1vs1. Forretress outspeeds the first Magnemite (but not the second for some reason), so you an take both out without healing. Bide is actually worse as Forretress because it doesn't take enough damage to OHKO Steelix. Overall, decent matchup.

Stantler (30): it can support with hypnosis and intimidate, but it doesn't deal much damage. You need three calm minds just to 2HKO the Magnemites with shadow ball. Return 3HKO's them. Pretty bad matchup.

Meganium (32): specs petal dance OHKO's everything. Great matchup.

Tentacruel (31): specs sludge bomb 2HKO's seel and Dewgong and specs surf OHKO's Piloswine. You can sweep but you do need two switch fodders to switch moves. Good matchup.

Forretress (31): bug bite 2HKO's Seel. You can OHKO Piloswine with bide if it uses mud bomb twice, but you have to take notice of the amount of hail turns left since Piloswine always uses hail if hail isn't up already. Forretress can't really break through Dewgong. Pretty good matchup.

Stantler (30): you can easily set up six calm minds on Seel. Shadow ball OHKO's Seel and 2HKO's Dewgong and Piloswine. However, there is rather a lot that can go wrong, making a sweep inconsistent. Firstly, all of Pryce's Pokemon will be faster than Stantler after a couple of icy winds. This allows Piloswine to outspeed and 2HKO if it decides to use ice fang rather than blizzard (you can prevent this with a sitrus berry though). There are also lots of small chances of you getting screwed, such as missing thanks to snow cloak, flinching from ice fang or just getting crit. You also need a healing item. If all this seems like too much effort to you, you can also just spam return or use specs thunder for decent success. So yeah, while a sweep is definitely possible, it's not very consistent.

Meganium (36): specs petal dance 3HKO's everything, so that's not amazing but not terrible either. light screen might be useful if you have a teammate that can make good use of it. Mediocre matchup.

Tentacruel (36): specs sludge bomb is a 3HKO on Gyarados, but it can turn into a 2HKO the first sludge bomb triggers poison. specs blizzard OHKO's both Dragonairs but missing one is quite bad. Spec sludge bomb 3HKO's Kingdra, considering the sitrus berry. Good matchup.

Forretress (35): it can't thouch Gyarados and the Dragonair with fire blast. The other Dragonair can be somewhat safely taken down by three bug bites. Forretress can take excactly one hydro pump, so you can OHKO Kingdra with bide if it misses one or if it uses smokescreen once. You can use a brightpowder to make this more "consistent". Mediocre matchup.

Stantler (35): it can OHKO Gyarados with thunder (though this is a range without specs). It can also outspeed and 2HKO the Dragonairs with return, which allows it to potentially take all three targets out with just a cheri berry equipped. It's not very useful against Kingdra. Surprisingly good matchup overall.

thoughts on tiering so far:

Meganium: I'm leaning towards B for now. Johto is absolutely brutal to grass types (seriously, literally all of grass' good matchups are in Kanto), so reallly I'm surprised with how well it holds up. It's midgame is actually great, with three back to back sweeps against Chuck, Jasmine and Pryce. If it's beyond terrible at the E4, it's probably going to end up in C though.

Tentacruel: much better ever since it evolved. It's power is a little lacking without specs, but this is mostly nullified by its amazing STAB options. It is also notably fast, which makes it a good specs sweeper. If it's good at the E4, I think A isn't out of the question, though I can also see it in B because it does have some issues.

Forretress: much better than I expected. It has decent power and some good coverage moves, as well as a great typing. Bide can come in clutch in major matchup, but it's not a very reliable strategy. Forretress does suffer from the fact that its STAB options are really lacking. No gyro ball will really impact its end game I think. Will probably end up in C.

Stantler: it's acutally the third strongest normal type return stick, right after Tauros and Ambipom. So I don't know what's wrong with Ryota's Stantler, but mine consistently gets 2HKO's even on targets that have some bulk to them. It doesn't have many opportunities to abuse its calm mind niche, so spamming return is almost always your best bet. Intimidate is invaluable. Looks like a solid C tier right now.
 
I want to throw my hat into the ring regarding Pineco. Disclaimer: It's been a while since I've used it but I do not have good memories. Maybe I could retest it down the line, I don't know.

Pineco starts out okay. Gets Selfdestruct Bug Bite, and Take Down as early as level 12 which is decent.

And...that's where the positives ended for me for a long time. 65 Attack is okay as Pineco, but with how often Bug moves find themselves resisted (Morty, Chuck, and Jasmine all resist them, plus Poison is pretty common on mooks) it's not as good as it seems. I also remember it felt like it took an eternity to get to level 31 for Forretress despite it not sounding that bad on paper.

Reading through Magnus's matchups above, they doesn't exactly impress me either aside from Morty. Dig OHKOing Magnemites I don't think is all that notable in my opinion, virtually any physical mon who gets the move can do that. Also, if a Pokemon has to consistently Bide to win in major battles I think it shouldn't be ranked anywhere near good, even C (I personally feel like Pineco is kinda a D rank mon from memory).

I'm especially skeptical about the E4. I just...don't remember Forretress doing anything there. It might be alright for Will with Payback but he has Confuse Ray and Forretress doesn't like hax with how slow it is to kill things already. Koga looks okay on paper but you really, REALLY don't want him setting up evasion stuff even if he can't touch you - same with Karen's Umbreon (even if you can hit the latter super-effectively). Bruno you could maybe Iron Defense if you're level 45? I..don't see how you're killing him quickly there either though, but I guess you could wall Karen's Murkrow and Vileplume, if that's your thing?

I also don't see Forretress doing anything to Lance like ever. Even if you got to +6 with Iron Defense, Lance would simply send out his Level 50 Dragonite and Fire Blast you even if you managed to kill Charizard. Also, Forretress once again lacks good moves to use its good Attack stat with to kill things here, especially without STAB.

Level 38 Explosion is nice for Forretress and I could definitely see you potentially killing Clair's Kingdra with it, but other than that I just...don't see a reason you should use Pineco, even with the limited amount of good Bug types in HGSS. As far as Steel types go, I think Magnemite and Steelix beat it on their worst days too.

So yeah, I don't think Pineco is all that good, but that's just me.

--

I'm also gonna firmly disagree with Chikorita being decent simply because the best mons available can help it. If I can use an Onix for Screech or a Fearow for Leer, that speaks to the latter two's capabilities more than Chikorita. That being said, I will say I thought maybe Specs Petal Dance could save Meganium midgame, and you confirmed my thoughts; sweeping those three midgame leaders is definitely alright for it. I still think B might be a stretch with that earlygame, but it could maybe see B thanks to the midgame admittedly. I can definitely see arguments for C though as Grass types just...suck in this game.
 

Ryota Mitarai

Shrektimus Prime
is a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis a Top Smogon Media Contributor
continuing with my run. Before that, to share my opinion in regards to what Magnus0 asked:

Now, I feel like this does need some further discussion. I realise that it is a bit unfair to say Chikorita has a good matchup against Falkner even though it doesn't actually do all that well without the support. I only bring Rocky up because it has a purpose beyond playing support. I always get Rocky as my rock smash slave, regardless of the type of run, because it comes with a free persim berry. Can we factor in support from a Pokemon that we assume is part of almost everyone's team anyway?
(I am quoting that part, but assume response also applies to the rest)

I think if Leers from Kenya and similar support allow some Pokemon to beat an otherwise unbeatable matchup, I think that should weight moreso in favor of the support Pokemon (in this example, Kenya) than the recipients. I am pretty sure Bayleef wouldn't be the only Pokemon that would benefit from Kenya's Leers against Whitney. As for Lance, I was under the impression most of us are fine with some support against him, as that's Lance we are talking about (how much support is beyond my idea, but I report strategies that I've found successful anyways).

And as for your Falkner matchup, I think just beating him with Onix would be much faster than Screeching it for any teammate that doesn't already deal with him, so I think the Falkner scenario is out of question for this case.

anyways, here is my run:

Sandslash(33): unreliable, as it can only crush things with DCurl + Rollout and there's Smokescreen everywhere.

Electrode(33): Specs Charge Beam almost OHKOs Koffing, which becomes a guaranteed OHKO with one boost. However, Weezing is almost OHKOed by +2 Specs Charge Beam so it can potentially weaken you. If you do not get any poisoning or Smokescreens, you are set, for most parts.

Murkrow(32): Night Shade 3HKOs Koffing. This matchup, as you can imagine, is not very good.

Clefable(32): Specs Fire Blast OHKOs all Koffing, should it hit, of course.


Sandslash(33): Dig OHKOs Magnemite and Quilava, while Shadow Claw OHKOs Haunter, though it's 2HKOed by Shadow Ball. Golbat has hax and Sneasel has Icy Wind, making them not worth it.

Electrode(33): Charge Beam 2HKOs Golbat and, if you get boosts, can spam Thunder to nuke his Pokemon. Of course, it's reliant on having boosts on first place and Thunder's accuracy, but that's pmuch the only way to fastly get through this fight.

Murkrow(32): terrible matchup. Haunter doesn't even to Assurance after taking a Shadow Ball. And the other mons are not very good matchups either. All in all, Murkrow sucks. It can beat Quilava potentially, though, as it outspeeds and 2HKOs it with Fly, though watch out for Smokescreens.

Clefable(33): Thunder puts Golbat in red. Fire Blast OHKOs Magnemite and 2HKOs Sneasel. Quilava is 3HKOed by Strength, but it Smokescreens you.


Sandslash(35): if lucky, DCurl + Rollout 2HKOs both of his Pokemon. Watch out for confusion hax, though.

Electrode(34): OHKOs Golbat with Specs Charge Beam and 2HKOs Weezing, no matter if it has boosts or no.

Murkrow(34): Fly 2HKOs Golbat, but hax can kick in, potentially, but unlikely.

Clefable(34): Specs Thunder OHKOs Golbat and 2HKOs Weezing


I am too tired to post anything anymore, including thoughts, so will do so when I am done with the whole run.
 
Meganium (39): OHKO´s Slowbro with specs petal dance. You can also 2HKO Jynx if it doesn't use lovely kiss, because Meganium can take two ice punches before going down. If you're in overgrow range, specs petal dance is a 2HKO range on Exeggutor. Light screen is useful support. Not great, not terrible.

Tentacruel (39): OHKO's the Xatu's and Exeggutor with specs blizzards, and Will sends these out after the other so you don't have to switch. Sludge bomb 2HKO's Jynx and possibly Slowbro (if poison triggers). Good matchup, but a full sweep isn't consistently possible.

Forretress (38): the first Xatu almost always uses me first, so you can 2HKO it with payback without taking too much damage. You can 2HKO Jynx and the second Xatu with Payback as well, and Exeggutor is 2HKO'd by bug bite. You need a healing item or two to beat all of them. Slowbro is generally too bulky to break through thanks to curse. Decent matchup.

Stantler (38): Xatu is dumb and spams me first all the time, allowing you to set up a couple of calm minds. At +4, you can sweep with shadow ball. Use a chesto berry as extra protection against Jynx. Great matchup.

Meganium (39): uhh, let's see. What can Meganium do here.... So, earthquake is a 3HKO on Muk and Venomoth. Uhh... reflect can maybe be useful support for a setup mon that can take advantage of Ariados being kinda bad. Natural gift fire can do some damage to Forretress... That's it really, bad matchup.

Tentacruel (39): it can easily beat Ariados, Forretress and Venomoth with specs surf. Muk takes three hits to take down rather than two, and coupled with minimize this can cause some trouble. You can gamble on blizzard for Crobat, but good luck hitting that after a double team. Overall, pretty good matchup.

Forretress (38): It utterly walls everything but Crobat, but the opposing Forretress walls you back. This is a problem because Ariados can lock you into a stallbattle with the opposing Forretress with spider web. You can beat Muk, Ariados and Venomoth with earthquake or rock tomb. You can use rock tomb against Crobat as well, but this is unreliable thanks to double team. However, bide bypasses accuracy checks, so it's a really nice safety net in case Crobat ever gets out of hand. Pretty good overall.

Stantler (38): zen headbutt is a 2HKO against Ariados and Venomoth. It´s a 3HKO on Muk and Crobat, not counting sitrus berry. You can completely wall Forretress and set up calm minds. At max sp. attack, you can break through Forretress with shadow ball and 2HKO Crobat. It's actually possible to pull of a full sweep, but this requires a healing item and some luck

Meganium(39/43): specs petal dance is a range 2HKO on Hitmontop, a OHKO on Onix (duh) and a 3HKO on everything else (it comes very close to a 2HKO though). Dumping some rare candies on Meganium turns everything into a 2HKO. Petal dance's confusion can really screw you up, but it's still a pretty good matchup overall.

Tentacruel (40/44): specs surf OHKO's Onix (duh). It's a 2HKO on Hitmontop and a 3HKO on everything else. Dumping some rare candies on Tentacruel turns these 3HKO's into 2HKO's as well. Even then, sweeping isn't consistent, but not impossible either. Pretty good matchup.

Forretress (39): can deal with Hitmontop with earthquake. Mirror shot can 2HKO Onix, and Onix actually helps you by setting up sandstorm. You can beat Machamp with bide (you need a sitrus berry though). Hitmontop and Hitmonlee have fire coverage so you can't touch them. Overall, mediocre matchup.

Stantler (39): Hitmontop is complete setup fodder, but even at max sp.attack, you can't OHKO anything but Onix with shadow ball. Zen headbutt 2HKO's Hitmonlee and Hitmonchan, but the former can OHKO you with high jump kick. Stantlers best use in this matchup is as an intimidate bot. Mediocre overall.

Meganium (39): really bad. The only contribution is screens.

Tentacruel (40): 3HKO's Umbreon with specs surf. Murkrow and and Vileplume are OHKO'd by blizzard (surf is a range OHKO on Murkrow as well). Houndoom actually survives a surf, but Tentacruel outspeeds somehow, so it's not really a problem. Gengar is 2HKO'd by surf and it can't touch Tentacruel at all. Great matchup, though you do have to switch to switch up moves.

Forretress (39): 3HKO's both Umbreon and Murkrow with bug bite, and neither can do much damage to Forretess. You can take Gengar out with payback. You also completely wall Vileplume, but Forretess doesn't have a quick way to take it out, so this really becomes a stall battle. Houndoom is a no-go for obvious reasons. Overall, decent matchup.

Stantler (39): 2HKO's murkrow while not taking much damage back thanks to intimidate. zen headbutt is a 2HKO range on Vileplume. You can take one unboosted attack from Houndoom and do about 50% with return (or even more with earthquake). Umbreon doesn't do much damage and you can 4HKO it with return, but it's not very consistent because of confuse ray. Pretty mediocre overall.

Meganium (39): rip

Tentacruel (41): can OHKO and outspeed all the Dragonites with specs blizzard, which is very impressive. Aerodactyl outspeeds and 2HKO's with thunder fang, and surf doesn't OHKO it, so it's a losing matchup. Charizard can take one surf, but it doesn't do all that much damage back. Gyarados can be 3HKO'd with specs sludge bomb. Really good for a Lance matchup.

Forretress (39): can wall Aerodactyl and beat it with mirror shot. Other than that, it can support with some chip damage and rock tomb speed drops. Pretty bad overall.

Stantler (39): specs thunder OHKO's Gyarados and 2HKO's Aerodactyl and Charizard. intimidate is very useful in general. Overall, it's not that bad for a lance matchup.


Meganium to B/C
Pros: perfect availability, great bulk, good speed for a tank, easy access to screen support, good midgame
Cons: Johto is incredibly biased against grass types, lacks power, terrible coverage, below average E4 performance

Tentacruel to A

Pros: great speed tier, amazing STAB options, really good matchup spread
Cons: terrible early game (don't get the earliest version), bad physical bulk, extremely reliant on specs

Forretress to C

Pros: amazing physical bulk, great typing, good coverage, suprisingly decent matchups, can get rid of problematic enemies with bide or explosion
Cons: slow, vulnerable to hax, lacklustre STAB options, lacks power in the late game, often too reliant on bide to leave an impact

Stantler to C

Pros: intimidate, decent offenses, very powerful the moment you get it, special coverage and the sp. attack to back it up
Cons: mediocre stats for the late game, hard to catch, calm mind niche is only useful in a handful of fights
 

Ryota Mitarai

Shrektimus Prime
is a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis a Top Smogon Media Contributor
fwiw I think you had a better time with Stantler, as I noticed your Attack IV is higher than mine (my maximum one was lower than your minimum) and I distinctly remember it failing to 2HKO some of the fat mons. If that's the case, then we have another IV-dependent Pokemon :Smogjynx:

but at least we know the IVs now, so I guess Turdterra can weigh in something on that matter.

as for Chikorita, I have used it and I am leaning towards C-tier, based on that. As you said, Johto has a huge dislike for Grass-types as a whole and the E4 performance, in my opinion, is unacceptably bad. And I'd say the early-game isn't good either, as you yourself relied on support for it to work or not get stalemated. If there's a demand, I can use it again in a next run, but I'd also like to see other opinions before doing that.
 
I have my eyebrow raised on Tentacruel to A. While I have no qualms about it, the recent nom uses Tentacool. We all know that Tentacool is horrid and we should just skip to Tentacruel. Ryota has said B at worst and that is what I am honestly leaning towards. I've used Tentacool....it's so bad that is actually causes Tentacruel to be B. Additionally if you skip to Cruel, it's post Surf which already hurts it's availability, so regardless, Cruel may be a B for good.

The bagworm isn't gonna be C probably. I'm not trying to shoot down your nom at all Magnus, but I read over it all and it is incredibly reliant on Bide and you sunk 3 TMs into it. I cannot see that in C at all.

Another thing, fairly sure Chikorita has been placed in C. The starters were all on a consensus last month or so and their time limit expired awhile ago. When no one did a run on it, it got slammed into C and will not be budging unless an incredibly compelling argument is made for it to rise or fall.
 
I have my eyebrow raised on Tentacruel to A. While I have no qualms about it, the recent nom uses Tentacool. We all know that Tentacool is horrid and we should just skip to Tentacruel. Ryota has said B at worst and that is what I am honestly leaning towards. I've used Tentacool....it's so bad that is actually causes Tentacruel to be B. Additionally if you skip to Cruel, it's post Surf which already hurts it's availability, so regardless, Cruel may be a B for good.

The bagworm isn't gonna be C probably. I'm not trying to shoot down your nom at all Magnus, but I read over it all and it is incredibly reliant on Bide and you sunk 3 TMs into it. I cannot see that in C at all.

Another thing, fairly sure Chikorita has been placed in C. The starters were all on a consensus last month or so and their time limit expired awhile ago. When no one did a run on it, it got slammed into C and will not be budging unless an incredibly compelling argument is made for it to rise or fall.
I'm going to set my foot down for Tentacool. If other post surf waters can be considered for A, like Chincou and Lapras, surely Tentacool should be as well. It has similar power to the aforementioned, but it's significantly faster and doesn't require a detour. It's one of the few Pokemon in the game that doesn't come underlevelled as well. I think it's actually better than both Lapras and Chincou. Another thing I forgot to mention is that it has access to clear body, which is a very useful ability.

As for Pineco, I think that the good attack IV on mine might have influenced my experience with it. Looking back, I did rely on bide quite a bit, which is useful against trainers that don't have many Pokemon, like Whitney or Chuck, but it's just not enough in the late game where most trainers have bigger teams. I will say that payback and rock tomb aren't exactly on high demand. Pineco just needs at least one more run to decide its tier. All I can really say is that I had a pretty good time with it.
 

Ryota Mitarai

Shrektimus Prime
is a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis a Top Smogon Media Contributor
small correction, Chinchou isn't post-Surf, though it does require Good Rod and some backtracking. I distinctly remember Lanturn being more powerful and reliable in its E4 matchups due to ThunderDance, so I wouldn't say Cruel is strictly better than Lanturn. And I believe some people did nom Lapras to B and I didn't nom it confidently to A either, as I felt my busted SpA IV made it a lot better than it may be.

That's not to say I disagree with A-tier on Cruel, given I gave the suggestion when I used it, I just wanted to clarify something I believe is not 100% correct.

anyways, continuing with my run after I aborted it due to deprival of sleep:

Sandslash(35): -1 Dig puts Arbok in red HP, though Glare can be annoying. Vileplume comes in, which you should avoid. Two unboosted Rollouts are needed to take Murkrow out.

Electrode(34): Charge Beam OHKOs Murkrow, while Thunder 2HKOs Arbok (you can use Rain Dance for that). Vileplume is put in red by Self-destruct.

Murkrow(34): Night Shade 3HKOs Arbok, who can Glare you and make the fight harder. Her Murkrow is 2HKOed by unboosted Fly. I managed to 3HKO her Vileplume with -1 Pluck, so I'd assume with no modifiers, it can be a 2HKO.

Clefable(35): Specs Fire Blast OHKOs Murkrow and Vileplume and 2HKOs Arbok. Arbok never goes for Glare and Clefable managed to win with -2 in Defense as well.


Sandslash(35): Dig OHKOs Houndour line. The only way to quickly take Koffing out is through Rollout sweep, which can be prone to hax.

Electrode(34): set up rain and OHKO Houndour and Koffing and 2HKO Houndoom with Thunder.

Murkrow(35): beats only Houndour by 2HKOing it with Fly. Koffing is 3HKOed by Night Shade, but it manages to finish you off with two Sludges. Houndoom is not a good matchup, obviously

Clefable(35): Specs Thunder OHKOs Koffing and Houndour. It loses to Houndoom, though Specs Thunder is a 3HKO.


Sandslash(36): terrible matchup. Dragonair 2HKOs it with Dragon Pulse and also outspeeds it. Kingdra and Gyarados are obvious

Electrode(37): Thunder OHKOs Gyarados, with Charge Beam 2HKOing. If you were to somehowly have +2 against Kingdra (e.g. muscling through Dragonair and healing as appropriate), you can 2HKO it with Thunder (and if you have more boosts, even OHKO it), though that requires a lot of effort to be done. You also 2HKO Dragonair with +2 Thunder. The matchup, as a whole, can be incredibly good if you are lucky. Self-destruct, by the way, doesn't even 2HKO Kingdra, so don't plan on using this, unless you fire off two Screeches.

Murkrow(36): Murkrow is terrible here. Gyarados and Kingdra are out of question. Dragonair is 3HKOed by non-crit Pluck and Murkrow is 2HKOed by Dragon Pulse, though it outspeeds when not paralyzed.

Clefable(37): Specs Thunder OHKOs Gyarados. If you taught Blizzard over Fire Blast, you can OHKO Dragonairs, which don't hit you hard. Good matchup if you hit often enough.


Sandslash(39): Earthquake OHKOs Magneton and Sneasel and OHKOs Typhlosion on rolls. Golbat requires you to heal, but can be beaten with Curl and Rollout. Kadabra sets up Reflect, making the matchup against the rest hard, but is 2HKOed by Earthquake. Haunter often will KO it with Shadow Ball, as it's faster

Electrode(39): Thunder OHKOs Golbat and 2HKOs Sneasel, Haunter, and Kadabra (Kadabra is an OHKO on rolls, though). Sneasel, however, can Icy Wind you and make you slower than Haunter, which can cripple you a lot. If you have rain, you can muscle through Typhlosion if it doesn't burn you.

Murkrow(39): Pluck 3HKOs Sneasel, which doesn't do a lot to you in return. Faint Attack OHKOs Kadabra and Haunter, with the latter outspeeding you and being able to Curse or confuse you. Golbat mostly haxes you, so it's a 50/50. Magneton and Typhlosion are out of question

Clefable(39): Strength 2HKOs Sneasel and 3HKOs Kadabra with Reflect. Thunder 2HKOs Golbat. If you kept Fire Blast, you can use it to nail Magneton (and Meganium ig?). Haunter will Curse you most of the time, so not really worth fighting it.


Sandslash(42): gets 2HKOed by special moves and is relatively slow, so it cannot do much. Xatu #1 can be muscled through if it spams Me First, though.

Electrode(42): with ThunderDance, it can take care of Xatus and Slowbro quite easily, though it takes heavy damage from Psychic, so you may need to heal somehowly. Eggy takes a while due to Hynosis and stuff, Jynx also has sleep hax and lives a Thunder.

Murkrow(42): ....sucks here. Faint Attack, at best, 2HKOs the thing it hits. Jynx is faster and KOs you easily with Ice Punch. Eggy has Reflect, making your life miserable. Xatu #2 is not even 2HKOed due to Berry. Slowbro, likewise, is 3HKOed, but it has Curse. Xatu #1 is perhaps the only thing that you are taking out. Why am I still using this again?

Clefable(42): Specs Shadow Ball 2HKOs everything. If you need to, you can resort to inaccurate moves, which will often have a chance of OHKOing if super effective. Clefable is slow, however, so it may require a healing and is also vulnerable to sleep hax.


Sandslash(42): Earthquake 2HKOs Ariados, Venomoth, and Muk, with Muk being put in red. You like 3-4HKO Forry with EQ too. As a whole, if Ariados derps turn one, you can beat it easily and Venomoth alone doesn't threaten it a lot, but Toxic and Supersonic can be nasty.

Electrode(42): Thunder 2HKOs everything bar Muk. Use Rain Dance to hit consistently. As a whole, you probably want to concentrate Electrode in taking Crobat out, as you take heavy damage from STAB moves.

Murkrow(42): beats Venomoth and Ariados by 2HKOing them with Pluck, though it takes heavy damage from Poison Jab. You are unable to do much to the rest

Clefable(42): Specs Fire Blast OHKOs the Bug-types. You are not doing much to the rest, though you could potentially Encore them into a bad move.


Sandslash(42): Earthquake 2HKOs everything bar Machamp, which is 3HKOed. You want to spam Defense Curl so you don't get hit too hard, though Top is faster, so you need to play around Counter and Dig strats (EQ still 2HKOs even when underground)

Electrode(42): Thunder fails to 2HKO anything on his team. Though it not missing against Machamp is neat, I guess? But anyways, Electrode is not really something I'd say you should use against Bruno.

Murkrow(42): Pluck 3HKOs Hitmontop. You want to spam Night Shade on it to avoid Counter. Hitmonchan is put in red by Fly, but it KOs with Ice Punch. Machamp and Onix are beating you with no problems. Lee is faster and can either HJK or Swagger you, though ig if you hit it, you can kill it. Murkrow sucks.

Clefable(42): sucks as a whole. Hitmontop takes a lot of time to be taken down safely. Lee and Machamp are straight out of question. I guess you can kill Onix with Specs Blizzard. Chan is also a bad matchup, as Strength 4HKOs, while it can comfortably wear you down, especially when Chan is healed.


Sandslash(43): OHKOs Houndoom with Earthquake. If healthy, it can also take Murkrow out with Rollout.

Electrode(43): mediocre here. It can beat Murkrow, but is 2HKOed by Sucker Punch. It can Self-destruct on Houndoom, but doesn't kill it. Gengar is 2HKOed by Thunder, but its Focus Blast also 2HKOs. Don't even bother with the rest, as Umbreon can tank Thunders as much as it wants to.

Murkrow(43): beats only Vileplume by using Fly then Pluck. Her Murkrow is faster and 2HKOs. Gengar lives a Faint Attack and strikes back with Focus Blast, putting it at red.

Clefable(42): Fire Blast 2HKOs Vileplume and Blizzard OHKOs Murkrow. It's worth mentioning that Clefable can potentially lock Houndoom in Nasty Plot with Encore if you predict correctly.


Gonna keep it short due to obvious reasons

Sandslash beats Aerodactyl with DCurl + Rollout (no healing) but is useless against the rest

Electrode beats Gyarados, but you cannot set up rain cause Waterfall then kills you. Aero is, notoriously, faster than you. Also beats Charizard, can set up rain easily

Murkrow....

Clefable OHKOs every Dragonite with Specs Blizzard, though it barely lives an Outrage.


nominations:

Sandshrew -> C
While it starts off rough due to Rock Tomb and Scratch being its only attacking options, it eventually gets fine. It can potentially contribute majorly against Bugsy and Whitney, which is what pushes me to nom it to C. Sandslash also has a generally good performance against Team Rocket, so I think C fits more than D. It can also occasssionally assist with some kills, should that be necessary, such as Karen's Houndoom.

Voltorb -> C
Voltorb line, compared to the other Electric-types, is severely lacking in power. This is very evident at the E4, where I often fail to get some 2HKOs and I rarely OHKO anything. It gets traded Exp., sure, but I feel like it's not really that strong for B-tier.

Murkrow -> Hell
Now, seriously, I am nomming this to go as low as it can (F if we allow non-gimmick stuff, otherwise E). This thing has no reliably good matchup whatsoever, incluing Bruno, Chuck, and Will. This is by far the worst thing I've ever used in my life and I heavily regret ever testing it. Honestly, go use BW1 Larvesta, that's more usable than this thing.

Clefairy -> leaning towards D
While Clefairy is reliant on inaccurate moves, whenever it hits suepr effectively, it will often nab OHKOs. Encore can also be useful, albeit Clefable being slow means it won't be exploiting it to its full potential. Open to arguments for E.

Pokemon I am running next time: Spinarak (this is very likely gonna suck, but might as well be the unlucky one to use it) / Natu (has no Psychic STABs, so likely gonna suck too) / Misdreavus / Jigglypuff (could try Curl and Rollout).
 
My run took way longer than I thought because work kept getting in the way :pikuh:

Geodude (24)
  • Gave it a Quick Claw as an item (I didn’t get it until after I beat Whitney)
  • So I had to attempt this 4 times before I decided Geodude cannot beat Croc. It’s too fast even after a Rock Polish and Water Gun nearly always brings it down to 4 HP or so.
  • Gastly is frail, but it can confuse and/or paralyze you. This can make it impossible for Geo to beat the rest of his team, even Magnemite which will 3HKO w/ Sonic Boom or confuse you w/ Supersonic.
  • Beats Magnemite and Zubat, so long as you avoid confusion from Magnemite.
  • Overall, I found it hard to set up Rock Polish in this fight w/o getting status’d or KO’d. Geodude is definitely at a disadvantage here b/c of its speed.
  • If I evolved Geodude at 25, things might have been different. Graveler might have done better, based upon what Ryota said in his post about its performance. However, I was a little over-leveled for this fight as is.
Kenya (23)
  • Gave it a Soothe Bell as an item.
  • Beats Gastly easily with Pursuit.
  • Magnemite is a little tricky, but I managed to avoid getting haxed by parafusion. 3HKO with Aerial Ace.
  • Croc depends upon if you’re statused or not. Ice Fang is a 3HKO, so getting rid of paralysis is crucial to beating it.
  • Zubat is beaten with Aerial Ace (x2)
  • A good match-up for Kenya
Quilava (25)
  • Quil KO’d Gastly turn 1 w/ Ember
  • Clicked Fire Blast on Croc; got a crit and OHKO’d it. I soft reset to test the damage output for Quil’s Fire Blast. Even without a crit, this is an easy 2HKO since Croc just spams Scary Face before using Water Gun.
  • Got confused by Zubat, but it dies to Ember regardless (I crit it the first time I fought it).
  • Magnemite – gets roasted by Ember every time. Quil got paralyzed, but it snapped out of confusion and dodged Magnemite’s Supersonic.
  • Quil mostly stomps Silver’s team solo, most likely because of the difference in levels between Quil and his ace Mon.

Quilava (27)
  • Ember can OHKO his Gastly, but it’s dependent on how high of a roll you get. Getting paralyzed by Lick or Cursed can screw over any chance Quil has of winning without switching out or healing.
  • Unfortunately, Shadow Ball from his Gengar (Male, 25) is a guaranteed 2HKO. It’s also faster unless you give Quil the Quick Claw or use an X-Speed. Fire Blast gets it down to the red, but it’s not enough to OHKO without a crit, a lucky burn, or an X Special. It also holds a Sitrus Berry.
  • If you’re lucky, he might use Mean Look on the first turn instead of going for the KO w/ Shadow Ball. If this does occur, you can 2HKO with Fire Blast. I found that Ember was not enough to knock Gengar out, even at less than ¼ HP. Flame Wheel might have, but I wanted a special STAB besides Fire Blast on Quil. If only, it got Flame Burst or something instead…
  • If his Haunter (Male, 22) puts you to sleep, there’s really not much Quil can do back without using an item to wake it up. I bought a few Awakenings just in case. Fire Blast will OHKO it.
  • His 2nd Haunter (Male, 23) also gets KO’d by Fire Blast. Thankfully, this one only has Sucker Punch and Night Shade as attacking options.
  • Not the best fight for Quil. Morty’s Gengar is a big hurdle that can be difficult to overcome for it.
Golem (29)
  • I waited till Lv. 29 to evolve Geodude to get Earthquake early then traded it via Platinum.
  • After a Rock Polish, Golem out-speeds Gastly. He used Mean Look then Spite after the first Rollout failed to KO his Gastly. Second Rollout took it out.
  • Gengar comes out next. Rollout (3) OHKOs it.
  • Haunter (21) comes out and gets squashed by Golem’s Rollout.
  • Haunter (23) – dies to the 5th Rollout.
  • In short, Golem steamrolls Morty’s whole team with one Rock Polish (so long as Rollout doesn’t miss, that is). I didn’t even need to double Rollout’s power using D-Curl.
Kenya (25)
  • Kenya clicked Pursuit and KO’d Gastly.
  • Haunter (21) comes out. Surprisingly, Pursuit does not OHKO it. Kenya gets put to sleep by Haunter’s Hypnosis. I used an Awakening and went for Aerial Ace in case of a heal. No heal, so Haunter dies to Ace.
  • Gengar comes out. Kenya out-speeds it and does about 25% damage with Ace to Gengar. Dodged a Hypnosis and started using Leer (x2). Gengar uses Mean Look and Hypnosis (Miss). Sucker Punch does nothing and Gengar gets KO’d by Ace.
  • Haunter (23) comes out. Kenya uses Aerial Ace; fails to KO, but Haunter uses Curse and KO’s itself (love it when that happens).
  • All-around solid matchup for Kenya. Curse could take you down, but Kenya out-speeds his entire team.

Golem (Lv. 31)
  • I used Rock Polish on the first turn. Golem outspeeds Zubat with or without the Quick Claw boost. I then clicked Defense Curl and KO’d Zubat with D-Curl.
  • The second Rollout OHKO’d his Koffing easily.
  • Fourth Rollout OHKO’s his Raticate. Golem out-speeds it without the Quick Claw.
  • Solid match-up overall.
Kenya (Lv. 30)
  • Kenya was taught Return after I reset the clock on my DS a few times. Also, I gave it a Silk Scarf that I received through Mother’s Savings.
  • Out-speeds Zubat and KO’s it on the first turn with Aerial Ace.
  • 2HKO’s Koffing with Ace.
  • Out-speeds and OHKO’s Raticate with one Return.
  • Mid-game has just started, so Kenya still hasn’t fallen off yet in terms of performance.
Typhlosion (Lv. 36)
  • Quilava evolved thanks to the many route trainers I came across while making detours to Olivine (Good Rod), the Lake of Rage (Choice Specs), and various areas that previously were inaccessible to me without Surf. Thus, it is rather over-leveled compared to the rest of the team.
  • I also taught Typhlosion SolarBeam via TM.
  • OHKO’s and out-speeds Petrel’s entire team. Not even a challenge for him, thanks to the level difference and stat buff from evolving.
Starmie (Lv. 30)
  • I caught a Staryu after beating Morty in Olivine City. Serebii says that Staryu is Lv. 25 near the harbor, but the ones I found on the pier were all Lv. 20. It took several tries, but I snagged one with a Modest nature with Natural Cure as its ability.
  • Pokeathlon wasn’t too bad for me. Took about 30 to 45 minutes to get 2800+ points with Golem, Quil, and Furrett (HM Slave). I did buff Quil and Furrett a little with Aprijuice.
  • Starmie is holding Choice Specs which I picked up on my detour to the Lake of Rage.
  • Everything on Petrel’s team dies to Specs-boosted Surf from Starmie
  • Great matchup for Starmie, but my team was a little over-leveled in general for this fight. I’ll withhold my judgment on it for now.

Note: I did the Gyms out of order, so I’ll be covering Chuck/Jasmine after Pryce.
Kenya (30)
  • Needs at least one Leer to knock out Seel with Return. Icy Wind does a lot of damage to Kenya even though I was a few levels higher than it.
  • Kenya will never beat Dewgong without jacking up its Attack with multiple X-items at the start of the fight. Leer is not an option because Dewgong can use Aurora Beam/Ice Shard to 2HKO it easily. It’s also too bulky for you to beat with Return; possibly a 3HKO, but I never managed to keep Kenya alive long enough for it to beat Dew that way.
  • Worst performance that I’ve seen out of Kenya so far. Does not bode well for future matchups.
Starmie (30)
  • Surf 2HKO’s Seel with ease.
  • Piloswine gets OHKO’d by Surf the next turn even after Mud Bomb/Snow Cloak lowers Star’s accuracy.
  • Starmie 3HKO’s Gong with Surf. It will attempt to use Rest/Sleep Talk after taking two Surfs, but can’t do any real damage to Star with its STAB moves alone.
  • Pryce is a good matchup overall for Starmie. Just watch out for evasion hax after he sets Hail.
Golem (35)
  • Same old routine with Golem. Rock Polish/D-Curl on the first two turns then try to sweep. Unfortunately, Seel’s Icy Wind never seems to miss and will take away your Speed buffs. As a result, Golem will get revenge killed by Gong 100% of the time. At least mine was.
  • This is definitely one of the first truly bad matchups for Golem. As a Geodude, its Speed and weakness to Special/SE attacks was an issue against Silver. But, Golem suffers from the same issues, it seems.
Typhlosion (36)
  • Seel gets 2HKO’d by using Swift then SolarBeam. However, if Hail is up, S-Beam fails to OHKO Seel, and it will heal.
  • Piloswine is destroyed by Lava Plume, easy OHKO.
  • Even with Thick Fat, Gong is 2HKO’d by Fire Blast.
  • The Fire starter does what it does best in this Gym, but Seel’s Thick Fat + pure Water typing was too much for Typhlosion to break through without Sunny Day or an X-item. However, I do not consider this a bad match-up for Typhlosion because Fire Blast is still immolating everything in sight.

Typhlosion (36)
Lava Plume OHKOs Primeape.
Typhlosion tanks a Focus Punch/Surf from Poliwrath and OHKOs with SolarBeam. Fire Blast is at best a 3HKO, if it doesn’t miss.

Golem (35)
Golem OHKOs Primeape with EQ, but it will never beat Poliwrath. Even after a Rock Polish, I was still slower than it. Poliwrath will either turn Golem into deadweight using Hypnosis or Body Slam, or just KO you with Focus Punch or Surf.
Another bad matchup for Golem it seems.

Kenya (32)
Kenya needs at least 1 Leer to knock out Primeape with Ace.
Poliwrath gets beaten after I used Leer twice then KO’d with Ace. I did get lucky, and managed to avoid paralysis from Body Slam/Hypnosis.
Getting statused will neuter Kenya, but it still performs well here.

Starmie (32)
OHKO’s both Primeape and Poliwrath with Specs-boosted Thunder. Not even remotely challenging for it.
Even if Thunder missed, I think Star still does well in this fight, but I would need to switch out to use Specs-boosted Thunder on Poliwrath.

Typhlosion (36)
Lava Plume OHKOs every member of her team with ease.

Golem (35)
OHKOs both Magnemites.
Steelix is a 2 to 3HKO depending upon how high of a roll you get with Earthquake. Iron Tail hits hard, esp. after a Screech, but you should be able to tank it and KO Steelix.

Starmie (32)
OHKOs both Magnemites with Specs-boosted Surf
Steelix is OHKO’d with Surf too.

Kenya (32)
Don’t use Kenya here, it will never beat any of Jasmine’s Pokemon.

Kenya (35)
Without using an X-item or keeping Leer, Kenya is too weak to beat Petrel’s team. With it, I was able to 2HKO most of his team using Return.
I got very lucky since none of his team used Selfdestruct once. Otherwise, Kenya would be a roasted turkey.
Not a bad match-up for Kenya because of its Speed and Return doing decent damage. But, it’s just too frail to take many hits in this fight.

Golem (35)
After 1 Defense Curl, Golem can actually tank multiple Self-Destructs and even an Explosion from Petrel’s Weezing, provided that you heal it
I missed Rollout several times because of Smokescreen shenanigans. Had to use an X-Accuracy to sweep the other half of his team with Rollout.
I think applying the 2-turn setup would’ve been more optimal since Weezing out-speeds and can mess up your sweep with accuracy debuffs.
Overall, solid match-up for Golem.

Starmie (35)
OHKOs his entire team with Specs-boosted Surf.

Typhlosion (37)
OHKOs his entire team with Charcoal-boosted Lava Plume, even after he tried to hax me with Smokescreen.

Typhlosion (38)
2HKO’d Golbat with Lava Plume
Gatr (which still has Water Gun, lol) gets 2HKO’d by Fire Blast
Magnemite, Haunter, and Sneasel dies to Lava Plume

Kenya (35)
2HKO’d Golbat, nearly an OHKO with boosted Return
Used Fly/Return to 2HKO Magnemite – got paralyzed by T-wave
Sneasel gets KO’d by Return
Gatr’s Ice Fang did not do nearly as much damage as I thought it would – Kenya tanked it and 2HKO’d easily with Return. Thrash hurts tho.
Ace failed to KO Haunter, but it ended up offing itself with Curse.
If Kenya were around the same level as Gatr, I doubt things would have gone so smoothly. I had to heal it a lot even with the level advantage.

Golem (35)
Golem used 2-turn setup strat (Curl+Polish) and then smashed Silver’s entire team with Rollout alone.
Golem did get out-sped by his Golbat, and most likely Sneasel too. However, I doubt that either of them could scratch it even if the levels were more equal. Golbat did negligible damage with Bite/Air Cutter, and Sneasel has piss-poor Special Attack.

Starmie (35)
OHKO’d most of his team with Specs-Surf
Gatr might be a 2HKO with Specs-Surf, but you’d need a really high damage roll – my Starmie consistently failed to 2HKO Feraligatr and it always survived with a tiny bit of health.
Even with the difference in level, Gatr can easily 2HKO Star with Crunch unless it gets a low roll on it.
Your best bet of beating Gatr is to switch out if using Specs and sack something in Star’s place. Then just pray that Thunder doesn’t miss.

Typhlosion (40)
OHKO’s both of his Mons with Lava Plume. Honestly, Typhlosion is just way too high-leveled at this point.
I’m beginning to think that battling all of those route trainers and fighting Pryce/the Rocket Hideout before beating Chuck was a mistake for testing purposes. I’ll have to be more careful roaming/exploring in my next run of this game.

Golem (35)
Needed to use 2-turn strat to out-speed and 2HKO his Weezing. Also, his Golbat can out-speed you and status you with Confuse Ray
Weezing can mess up your sweep with Smokescreen and poison status, but it’s otherwise 2HKO’d by Rollout.
I would like to note that Golem’s Quick Claw activated nearly every turn that I clicked a move. It’s situational, but it definitely relies upon it when I’m in a tight spot.

Starmie (35)
OHKO’s both Mons with Surf.

Kenya (38)
OHKO’s Golbat with boosted Return
2HKO’s Weezing with Return as well

Typhlosion (40)
OHKOs her whole team with Lava Plume

Golem (35)
Even though EQ will OHKO Arbok, you’re better off setting up a Rollout sweep since Vileplume can KO you with Mega Drain
2HKO’d Arbok with Rollout, OHKO’d Vileplume and Murkrow two turns later

Starmie (35)
OHKOs Arbok with Specs-Surf, Vileplume is 2HKO’d, Murkrow is OHKO’d

Kenya (39)
2HKO’d Arbok after Intimidate, Murkrow is also 2HKO’d, Vileplume is 2HKO’d by Ace

Typhlosion (40)
2HKO’s Houndour with Swift
Lava Plume barely scratches Houndoom, but Fire Blast will 2HKO
Koffing is OHKO’d by Lava Plume

Kenya (40)
OHKO’s Houndour with Return
2HKO’s Koffing with Return, barely missing the OHKO
Another 2HKO on Houndoom with Return

Golem (35)
OHKO’s Houndour with boosted Rollout – out-speeds at +2
2HKO’s Koffing with Rollout, but I ended up having to restart my Rollout sweep since I missed a few times
Houndoom was OHKO’d by Rollout (2)

Starmie (35)
OHKO’s his whole team with Specs-Surf.

Note: Typhlosion now has Sunny Day.
Typhlosion (40)
  • 2HKO’s Gyarados with Fire Blast in sun. Once I set up Sunny Day, Gyarados spammed Dragon Rage. On a side note, Typhlosion needs to be in Blaze range for it to 2HKO Gyarados. This is usually inevitable since you have to set up Sunny Day and take some damage. I did have to heal to get the 2HKO on Fire Blast tho
  • Typhlosion will never beat Kingdra. Pump is a 2HKO in the sun, and an OHKO outside of it. D-Pulse finishes Typhlosion off if it took too much damage from Gyarados. Additionally, Kingdra is faster than Typhlosion, so I couldn’t even test the power of Fire Blast on it.
  • With an X-Speed, Typhlosion will out-speed Kingdra. Boosted Fire Blast barely even scratches it tho.
  • Blaze-boosted Fire Blast in the sun will OHKO both Dragonairs. T-wave can mess up your ability to sweep tho since Typhlosion really needs its Speed intact for this fight.
  • Bad matchup because of status and reliance on Sun + Blaze boost for most of the 2HKO’s.
Kenya (40)
Note: I failed to log the damage of Dragonairs’ attacks on Kenya.
  • Return will 2HKO Gyarados if you sacrifice something else as fodder. Otherwise, it’s a 3HKO
  • Return 2HKO’s both Dragonairs, and you out-speed them. However, T-Wave can potentially screw Kenya over.
  • Kenya can 2HKO Kingdra with Return, but Pump can OHKO it. Dragon Pulse is a 2HKO. I was able to out-speed it and Pump missed Kenya.
  • If Kenya was not Lv. 40, it would have been a lot harder to win. I can see Return being more of a 3HKO on Kingdra if Kenya was still in the late 30s (which it should have been)
Golem (35)
  • After Intimidate, Gyarados is 2HKO’d by boosted Rollout
  • Golem needs at least 2 Polishes to out-speed Kingdra, but even Rollout at +3 fails to OHKO it. Kingdra either finishes Golem off with Pulse, or OHKO’s it with Pump
  • Golem can 2HKO the non-Aqua Tail Dragonair with a boosted Rollout (2) – however, Aqua Tail will 2HKO it, and Dragonair can out-speed without a Rock Polish up
  • Meh matchup for Golem
Starmie (39)
  • Thunder OHKO’s Gyarados, so long as it doesn’t miss. If it does miss, Gyarados can 2HKO with Bite.
  • Had to switch out because of Specs. Blizzard/Thunder will not OHKO Kingdra, but it can 2HKO so long as it doesn’t miss too often
  • Both Dragonairs are OHKO’d by Specs Blizzard, but they will paralyze you with T-wave. Thunder can also do the same if Blizzard starts running low on PP (!)
  • Star had the best match-up out of the whole team.

Notes: Typhlosion has Hidden Power Rock and Flamethrower. Also, Starmie’s Blizzard has 7 PP instead of 5.
Kenya (41)
  • OHKOs Sneasel with Return
  • Magneton is 3HKO’d by Return. However, Spark is a 2HKO
  • Return 3HKO’s Gatr. Ice Fang is a 2HKO, so I needed to heal to beat Gatr
  • Return 2HKO’s Golbat, surprisingly.
  • Kadabra gets OHKO’d by Return. Thankfully, it does not out-speed me, but I’m assuming it would if my levels were more balanced
  • Assurance fails to OHKO Haunter. Haunter KO’s itself with Curse. At this point, Kenya had leveled up to 43 which is six levels higher than Silver’s Haunter.
  • Kenya’s Speed and boosted Return are really the only things it has going for it now.
Golem (40)
  • Golem uses 2-turn setup strat; Sneasel goes for Faint Attack instead of Icy Wind. Rollout OHKO’s Sneasel
  • Magneton is 2HKO’d by Rollout (2). Magnet Bomb barely even scratches Golem.
  • Feraligatr is out-sped and OHKO’d by Rollout (3)
  • Haunter gets wrecked by Rollout (4)
  • I ended up missing Rollout (5), but Kadabra is still OHKO’d by Rollout
  • Golbat gets OHKO’d by Rollout (2)
  • Phenomenal performance from Golem, possibly its best matchup yet.
Starmie (41)
  • Sneasel, Haunter, Magneton, and Kadabra all OHKO’d by Specs Surf
  • Golbat barely survives a Surf, but gets taken out by the next one. Star can tank a Bite and retaliate next turn.
  • Gatr is 3HKO’d by Surf. Crunch takes a huge chunk of your HP, but Star was able to survive it.
  • Good matchup for Starmie, but I don’t recall it ever struggling against most of Silver’s team in general.
Typhlosion (42)
  • Sneasel and Haunter are both OHKO’d by sun-boosted Flamethrower
  • SolarBeam just barely misses out on the OHKO on Gatr, but Flamethrower is a 2HKO. Waterfall doesn’t hit nearly as hard in the sun too.
  • Even without the sun, Kadabra and Golbat are both OHKO’d by Flamethrower.
  • I’m a little disappointed that SolarBeam does not OHKO Gatr, even with the level advantage. I tested this again a few more times, just to be sure.

Notes: Typhlosion now has Fire Blast instead of Flamethrower. I decided the extra power of Fire Blast was more useful than Flamethrower’s higher accuracy.
Kenya (42)
  • Xatu (40) is 2HKO’d by Return. Kenya is virtually guaranteed to be 2HKO’d by Psychic.
  • Jynx can be OHKO’d by Return; however, I found it usually survived it. Ice Punch will also knock Kenya down by 75-80% of its full HP.
  • Exeguttor is 2HKO’d by Fly. Kenya ends up getting KO’d by Eggy
  • Slowbro is 3HKO’d at best by Return. If it starts using Curse, Kenya will never break through it. Psychic is an easy 2HKO for Bro.
  • Bad matchup for Kenya
Starmie (41)
  • Surf may OHKO Xatu (40), but it usually survives with a sliver of health. U-Turn is a 2HKO. Blizzard will OHKO Xatu.
  • Xatu (42) is 2HKO’d by Surf, and OHKO’d by Blizzard. Star can get 2HKO’d by Ominous Wind.
  • Eggy is 3HKO’d by Surf, and OHKO’d by Blizzard.
  • Jynx is 2HKO’d by Specs Surf. It always took about 75% of its HP, but without a crit, it never did more than that.
  • Specs Thunder OHKO’s Slowbro; Surf barely dents it.
  • I had to switch a lot in order to deal with Will’s team, but Star can still pull off a win here fairly easily. You can’t spam Specs-Surf here, so ThunderDance + Mystic Water might work better.
Golem (40)
  • Golem sets up D-Curl on Xatu (40). Xatu uses U-turn and switches out to Slowbro. I decided to go for EQ which is a 3HKO at best. Even with Soft Sand, EQ is still a 3HKO.
  • Slowbro is too bulky for Golem to beat.
  • Xatu (40) comes back and I switch back in my revived Golem. Psychic is nearly always a 2HKO unless it’s a low roll. I attempt to set up D-curl/Polish, but Xatu uses U-Turn again and Jynx comes in.
  • Jynx puts Golem to sleep with Lovely Kiss, so I’m unable to Polish. I go for an Awakening then heal with a Lemonade. Jynx 2HKO’s Golem (90% HP) with Psychic.
  • Xatu (42) comes out. I sack Star and my water HM slave to Xatu. Unfortunately, Xatu gets the Omni-boost from Ominous Wind on Star. Golem comes back in full HP and goes for Rollout. Barely even scratches Xatu who puts Golem in the red with its +1 Psychic.
  • Golem can’t even scratch Eggy unless you have Explosion or somehow manage to get Rollout up past turn 2 with a D-curl/Polish. Out of curiosity, I tested Golem against Eggy and switched Soft Sand for Quick Claw.
  • Eggy scores an easy 2HKO on Golem, and will out-speed without a Polish up.
  • This is likely the worst major battle for Golem in the game.
Typhlosion (43)
  • Turn 1, set up Sunny Day. Xatu (40) uses Psychic which is a 3HKO at best. Blast OHKO’s Xatu and Typhlosion is now Lv. 44
  • Slowbro comes out. Blast does over 75% to it in the sun + it gets burned too. Bro uses Amnesia. Typhlosion finishes Bro off with a SolarBeam to the face.
  • Blast OHKO’s Jynx as I assumed it would and Typho out-speeds it.
  • OHKO’s Eggy with Fire Blast. Sun has faded, so Eggy didn’t get the Chlorophyll boost.
  • I reset Sunny-D as Xatu (42) switches in. Psychic knocks Typho down to ~1/3 of its HP, so I decided to heal. Xatu uses Psychic again; it’s a 3HKO at full HP.
  • At this point, I’m down to only one Blast. Typho comes through and doesn’t miss, scoring yet another OHKO. It also leveled up to 45.
  • A good match-up, but Fire Blast’s low PP/accuracy is definitely an issue. I decided to use a PP Up on it.

Kenya (41)
  • Ace fails to OHKO Ariados, but it can 2HKO pretty easily. Ariados goes for Spider Web and I finish it off with Fly, in case of a heal. On a side note, Fly failed to OHKO as well when I used it, knocking away over 90% of Ariados’ HP at full. Koga healed it and Kenya was left poisoned by Jab.
  • Return is a 3HKO and Muk OHKO’s Kenya with Gunk Shot (if it hits). You could PP stall Gunk Shot with Fly, but this is very risky if he uses it twice in a row. At Lv. 42, Kenya’s Return is still a 3HKO because of Black Sludge.
  • Fort eats up Return and will nearly always use Protect if you go for Fly. It never Exploded on me, but I wonder if the AI recognized that it wouldn’t work because I had Fly on Kenya. I finally hit it with Ace, but Fort shrugs it off. Thus, Kenya needs either multiple X-Atk.’s (possibly 4 or more) or Leer to beat Fort.
  • Even at +2 Attack, Ace fails to KO Fort at 1/3 HP. That might be a low roll, but I doubt it. Koga does not heal Fort, thankfully and it dies to another Ace
  • Venomoth is OHKO’d by Fly from Kenya, but I’m sure that almost any Flying-type in this game could do the same. Doesn’t count for much, at least to me.
  • Crobat outruns and revenge kills Kenya with Wing Attack. I revive Kenya and Crobat starts to spam Double Team. Return can 3HKO – or even 2HKO with a high roll – the Bat, so long as it does not miss.
  • Wing Attack is virtually guaranteed to 2HKO Kenya, but Bat usually tries to DT spam instead of going for the KO on the first few turns. Once it is set up, Bat will go for the kill.
  • In spite of a decent mid-game, Kenya is really falling off in the late-game. It took a little longer than I thought, but Kenya is ultimately just a Fearow with boosted EXP.
Starmie (41)
  • Ariados somehow survived Star’s Specs-Surf with less than 5 HP at full. It poisons Star with Jab, so I go for Full Restore as does Koga. The same thing happens, but this time Jab does not poison and Koga does not heal it.
  • Muk is 2HKO’d by Specs Surf. It attempted to start using Minimize, but Star took it down with another Surf. Note that Gunk Shot will do a lotta damage if it hits.
  • Something to note is that Star can PP stall Gunk Shot. If it hits, Gunk Shot reduces Star to less than 1/3 of its HP at full health.
  • Forretress can lose 75-90% of its HP from one Surf. An easy 2HKO for Star, but watch out for Explosion. Fort went for T-Spikes on my second test with Star.
  • Crobat uses Double Team on the first turn. Surf is a 2HKO and will activate its Berry. Wing Attack is a 3HKO at best on Star.
  • To my surprise, I found that Venomoth will usually be 2HKO’d by Specs-Surf. Psychic is a 3HKO since Venomoth doesn’t have Tinted Lens.
  • Star does well against Koga too in an impressive performance. Only Explosion could potentially take Star out.
Typhlosion (45)
  • Turn 1, I set up Sunny-D and Ariados goes for Jab (possible 4HKO). Fire Blast OHKO’s it.
  • Forretress switches in and I use an X-Speed on Typho. Fort sets T-Spikes then Protects on my Fire Blast. Fort is OHKO’d by Fire Blast – Sunny-D ends.
  • I reset Sunny-D on Muk. Gunk Shot knocks me down into the red and poisons Typho. I revive then switch Typho back in after sacking fodder to Gunk Shot.
  • Typho gets poisoned on switch-in. It OHKO’s Muk with Fire Blast in the sun (I tested this twice to be sure, and it worked both times).
  • Bat comes out, I use another X-Speed and it Double Teams. I outrun it and go for Fire Blast. If it hits, Blast will OHKO Bat in the sun. Leveled up to 46 and Sunny-D ends.
  • Venomoth is OHKO’d by Fire Blast without the sun up.
  • Typhlosion does well here, but HP Rock is too weak to rely on for coverage. Fire Blast’s PP and reliability continues to be an issue. I swapped HP Rock for Flamethrower (Had to hack it in for testing purposes)
Golem (40)
Attempt 1 (Rindo Berry):

  • I swapped Golem’s Quick Claw for a Rindo Berry.
  • Ariados out-speeds Golem and goes for Giga Drain. Drain becomes a 4HKO with a Rindo Berry. Golem goes for Rollout (no Curl) and Ariados uses Spider Web. Rollout (2) KOs it.
  • Forretress out-speeds and sets up T-Spikes. Rollout takes it out after 2 more turns
  • Venomoth outruns Golem and hits it with Toxic. Rollout (5) OHKOs it
  • I Polish on Muk while it goes for Minimize. Golem then uses EQ and OHKOs Muk. Gunk Shot does nothing to Golem, even without a D-Curl. Levels up to 41.
  • Bat switches in and I use a Full Restore on Golem. Bat goes for Double Team (4) and I set up D-Curl then Polish twice. First rollout misses, so I have to use an X-Accuracy (x2). Bat is now at +6, but I know that nothing it has can hurt Golem in the long run. Rollout finally hits once – 2HKO, but it triggers Bat’s berry and misses the next one.
  • Bat’s Wing Attack barely dents Golem, but I needed to use my last X-Accuracy. Rollout (1) triggers a heal from Koga, but Rollout (2) OHKO’s it.

Attempt 2: Soft Sand
  • Ariados goes for Giga Drain which is a 2HKO. Even with Soft Sand, EQ fails to OHKO. I can only assume the difference in levels and lack of a Hard Stone on Rollout are the reason why my Golem cannot beat Ariados.
  • Golem is revived and healed to full. I set up Polish (x2) and go for a D-Curl. Outside of Explosion, Forretress cannot do any significant damage to Golem. Rollout (3) will take down Fort.
  • Venomoth is OHKO’d by Rollout (4) and Muk was OHKO’d by Rollout (5) with a crit. I doubt the crit mattered.
  • Rollout will 2HKO Crobat, so long as evasion hax doesn’t screw you over. Leveled up to 41.
  • A decent match-up, but it is reliant on luck and Golem needs help with breaking certain Mons.

Typhlosion (45)
  • Hitmontop uses Dig after I set up sun. Flamethrower OHKO’s Top in the sun.
  • SolarBeam OHKOs Onix, unsurprisingly
  • Sun-boosted Flamethrower puts Machamp in the red, triggers Sitrus Berry. Cross Chop OHKO’s Typho. Flamethrower KO’s Champ after I revived Typho
  • Hitmonlee hits Typho with Swagger after I set Sunny-D. Hi Jump Kick is a 2HKO – Flamethrower OHKOs Lee with a crit. I doubt it matters since Top couldn’t take it either at full HP. Leveled up to 46
  • Hitmonchan is OHKO’d by Flamethrower in the sun.
  • Bruno’s team is an easy win for Typho

Kenya (41)
  • Fly and Return are both a 2HKO on Hitmontop. However, Counter will OHKO you back.
  • Kenya can 2HKO Chan with Return, but it will get OHKO’d by Ice Punch. I had to use another Max Revive and sack fodder to revenge kill it with Ace.
  • Don’t even bother with Onix. It eats up anything Kenya can throw at it and sets Sandstorm to buff its Special Defense. Leveled up to 42.
  • TIL No Guard negates the invulnerability turn of 2-turn moves like Fly. Kenya gets OHKO’d by Champ’s Slide. Return is at best a 2HKO, but Cross Chop OHKOs regardless.
  • Lee gets OHKO’d by Fly, but it’s not exactly difficult considering its poor physical Defense
  • Bruno is a no go for Kenya.
Starmie (41)
  • Surf is a 2HKO on Hitmontop. Top goes for Dig (3HKO?), but it only chips a little HP off Star
  • Hitmonchan comes out and is 2HKO’d by Surf. ThunderPunch is an easy 2HKO tho, and it has Bullet Punch to finish Star off.
  • Onix is OHKO’d by Surf
  • Machamp is 2HKO’d by Surf. I don't recall how much damage Champ did on Star, but it wasn't enough to KO it.
  • Hitmonlee is 2HKO’d by Surf. Goes for Hi Jump Kick (Miss), and is healed by Bruno
  • Good matchup for Star overall
Golem (41)
Attempt 1:

  • Golem is back to holding a Quick Claw
  • Golem uses Polish while Hitmontop goes for Dig. Top is OHKO’d by EQ.
  • Lee out-speeds Golem and goes for Swagger. With a little bit of chip damage from confusion, Golem is KO’d by Hi Jump Kick from Lee.
  • I revive and heal Golem. Try to Polish, but Golem gets hurt by confusion and is KO’d again by HJK
Attempt 2:
  • Top is KO’d by EQ
  • Lee still outruns Golem, but this time it goes for HJK instead of Swagger. At full HP, Golem was barely able to survive it and managed to get off a second Polish
  • Quick Claw activates, so I’m not sure if 2 Polishes is enough to out-speed Lee. Unfortunately, it manages to survive EQ and KO’s Golem with Blaze Kick
Attempt 3:
  • Hitmontop: Same results, Golem gets a Polish up
  • Lee goes for Swagger this time, and I decide to risk another Polish. Avoided chip damage and decided to heal Golem of confusion. This time, Lee OHKO’s Golem with HJK, so I assume that I got lucky last time.
  • Hitmonchan goes for Ice Punch, possible 3HKO. Golem sets up a Polish. Chan is 2HKO’d by EQ
  • Golem’s EQ puts Machamp into Sitrus Berry range. Unfortunately, Cross Chop is an easy KO for Champ, even at full HP. On a side note, my Golem was unable to out-speed Champ without a Polish up. Leveled up to 42
  • Onix is 2HKO’d by EQ from Golem; its own EQ will 3HKO

Attempt 4: Soft Sand
  • One more attempt with Soft Sand this time to test how it does on Champ and Lee.
  • Top gets KO’d by EQ, Polish (x1)
  • Lee’s Reckless-boosted HJK KO’s Golem again. I don’t think Golem can win here unless I leveled it up more
  • Champ takes a little more damage from EQ this time, but it still beats Golem one-on-one
  • Another disappointing performance from Golem. I am beginning to wonder if it’s really worthy of S-tier.

Typhlosion (45)
  • Set up Sunny-D on Turn 1. Umbreon goes for Faint Attack then Double Teams when my first Fire Blast misses. In the sun, with a crit, Fire Blast OHKOs Umbreon. Without a crit, Fire Blast is a 2HKO in the sun. Something to note is that Flamethrower is also a 2HKO in the sun, and can do about the same amount of damage.
  • Gengar out-speeds Typho and hits it with a crit Focus Blast (OHKO). On my second attempt, it uses Spite on Flamethrower and is OHKO’d by Fire Blast (even without the sun).
  • Since Houndoom has Flash Fire, I only have SolarBeam to hit it with. Doom out-speeds Typho and starts spamming Nasty Plot. I reset Sunny-D, but Beam is useless against Doom. Doom OHKOs at +4 SpA with sun-boosted Flamethrower. A +2 Dark Pulse will do about 90-100% of Typho’s health at full.
  • Something to note, HP Rock barely dented Houndoom, presumably because of its low-base power.
  • Murkrow is OHKO’d by Flamethrower, outside of the sun. Pluck is a 4HKO at best.
  • Flamethrower OHKOs Vileplume.
  • Typhlosion needs Focus Blast, a SE Hidden Power, or Swift/Hyper Beam (Specs) in this match-up to take on Karen’s whole team. Choice Scarf/Specs might actually allow it to win here, but it’s not easy since Doom can sweep my whole team

Kenya (42)
  • Return on Umbreon is a 3HKO. Even after 2 Double Teams, I was able to take it down
  • Gengar goes for Spite, but it fails. Kenya’s Fly is a 3HKO, but Karen will heal if Gengar gets too low. Gengar only has two moves to watch out for: Focus Blast and Destiny Bond. Blast is a 2HKO on Kenya.
  • Its Return 2HKO’s Doom, accounting for its Berry, but it can be a 3HKO if you get a low roll. +2 Dark Pulse will OHKO Kenya.
  • Fly is a 2HKO on Vileplume.
  • Surprisingly, Kenya’s best match in the late-game.
Starmie (42)
  • Star’s Surf is a 3HKO on Umbreon. Payback is a 2HKO, but you should be able to out-speed and beat it.
  • Gengar’s Focus Blast is a 3HKO while Surf is a 2HKO, just watch out for Destiny Bond.
  • Star out-speeds Doom and OHKOs it with Surf.
  • Vileplume’s Petal Dance will OHKO Starmie, but Blizzard will OHKO Plume, if it hits.
  • Murkrow’s Pluck is a 3HKO at best while Surf will OHKO it.
  • Another good matchup for Star. This Mon takes on the whole Elite 4 and can pull off a win against them all with minimal item assistance.
Golem (42)
  • Golem sets up Polish/Curl while Umbreon gets up +2 with Double Team
  • Rollout (3) will KO Umbreon, but evasion hax can prevent Golem from beating Umbreon 1-on-1 with it
  • I was able to beat Umbreon using EQ after hitting it with a Rollout (1). EQ is likely at least a 4HKO on Umbreon. I missed the second Rollout and Gengar was never switched in; instead, Umbreon just kept spamming Payback/Faint Attack.
  • Gengar can OHKO Golem with Focus Blast if it hits, or use Destiny Bond. Paralysis from Lick could halt a sweep too. It’s risky to set up here, but you can KO Gengar with Rollout (2).
  • None of Golem’s attacks are strong enough to beat Plume, and it can OHKO Golem virtually every time with Dance.
  • Murkrow has Whirlwind, but I decided to risk going for Polish since it just kept using Faint Attack. Sadly, I missed the 2nd Rollout (2HKO) and tried to go for a Curl, but ofc it decided to Whirlwind right after I did. After a Curl, Rollout (1) can OHKO Krow
  • Doom goes for Nasty Plot while I set up a Polish, but it out-speeds me and OHKO’s with +2 Pulse. Golem needs at least 2 Polishes to beat Doom. Rollout (2) will KO Doom, but you would need to set up on Krow
  • As with Koga, Golem relies on luck to beat Karen, and cannot sweep her whole team on its own.

Note: I used a few Rare Candies on Golem, and Typhlosion has Lava Plume now.
Typhlosion (45)
  • Out-speeds Gyarados and sets up Sunny-D. Waterfall is a 2HKO for Gyarados; Fire Blast is a 3HKO.
  • Aerodactyl out-speeds Typho and OHKOs easily with Rock Slide
  • Dragonite (Thunder, 49) uses T-Wave on Typho and out-speeds it. Dragon Rush is a 2HKO, dealing over 90% to Typho at full, if it hits. In the sun, Fire Blast is a 3HKO. Hyper Beam is a 2HKO
  • Dragonite (49) and Dragonite (50), same result
  • Typho is faster than Lance’s Zard, surprisingly enough. Unfortunately, Fire Blast is only a 3HKO, even in the sun. Zard’s Air Slash is a 2HKO.
  • Typhlosion is useless against Lance

Kenya (42)
  • Gyarados’s Ice Fang will 2HKO Kenya, dealing over 90% to it. Intimidate makes Return hit like a wet noodle. Without Intimidate, it’s a 3HKO at best.
  • Aero out-speeds Kenya and OHKOs it with Thunder Fang.
  • Kenya out-speeds Zard and can 3HKO it with Return, but it gets 2HKO’d by Air Slash
  • Both Dragonites (49) are out-sped by Kenya, but Return is at best a 4HKO. Thunder or Blizzard will OHKO Kenya, as will Dragon Rush.
  • Dragonite (50) can OHKO Kenya with Outrage. Return is a 4HKO again
Golem (44)
  • Don’t bother fighting Gyarados; Waterfall will easily OHKO you before Golem can even start setting up
  • None of Aero’s moves do enough damage to KO Golem, without a crit. However, you need two Polishes to out-speed Aero and D-Nite (50). Rollout (1) will bring Aero into the red.
  • D-Nite (49) comes out, is OHKO’d by Rollout (3)
  • D-Nite (50) is OHKO’d by Rollout (4)
  • Missed Rollout (5) on the last D-Nite, but it should have OHKO’d it as well. Dragon Rush is a 2HKO. You need at least Rollout (2) to beat Lance’s D-Nites and Zard.
  • Golem’s best match in the League was against Lance.
Starmie (42)
Attempt 1: Choice Specs

  • Star out-speeds Gyarados, and will OHKO it with Thunder. Something to note, is that none of Gyarados’ moves do significant damage to Star. Dragon Pulse is a 4HKO.
  • Dragonite (49, Thunder) can OHKO Star. Blizzard should OHKO it, and Star will out-speed. The other Dragonite (49, Blizzard) is also OHKO’d and out-sped. Dragon Rush can OHKO Star, if it hits. However, it was usually a 2HKO for me.
  • Aero’s Crunch will usually OHKO Star; however, Surf will OHKO it back if Star manages to survive it. My Starmie was able to pull this feat on two occasions. Leveled up to 43.
  • Zard can OHKO Star with a crit Shadow Claw/Air Slash at full health. Non-crit A-Slash is a 2HKO on Star too.
  • Dragonite (50) will OHKO Star with Outrage, although Star did manage to out-speed it. Blizzard will OHKO, if it hits.
Attempt 2: ThunderDance (Magnet)
  • After 1 X-Accuracy, Star was able to OHKO Gyarados with Thunder. Leveled up to 43
  • Both D-Nites (49) are taken out with Blizzard. It is risky to set up Rain Dance here since you don’t know which D-Nite has Thunder until he uses it. I personally don’t like giving D-Nite 100% accurate Thunder for 5 turns
  • Aero’s Thunder Fang KOs Star unfortunately with a bit of chip damage from Gyarados. Additionally, without Specs or Rain Dance up, Star fails to OHKO Aero with Surf, even if it lives a Crunch.
  • D-Nite (50) is OHKO’d by Blizzard, but Star cannot switch into it because of Outrage.
  • Star cannot make it through the full fight without Specs, which allows it to achieve crucial KOs. But, it still displays an admirable performance against Lance, one of the strongest foes in the game.

Summary
Geodude (Trade) – A
  • I noticed that Golem still struggles with faster Mons that can status it without getting up at least 1 Rock Polish, especially during the mid-game.
  • Confusion and poison are especially big issues for it. Mine seemed to lose a lot of HP very quickly once it got poisoned. Confusion is never good, esp. since Golem sometimes needs a doubled Rollout for certain matchups.
  • Additionally, bulkier Mons able to tank a boosted Rollout or lower its Attack stat are another issue, esp. if they have SE coverage
  • In spite of a rather middling performance during the mid-game, I hoped that Golem’s end-game might be better. However, I found its performance too inconsistent for me to consider this an S-tier Mon against the Elite 4.
  • Wide Lens/Hard Stone could improve some of Golem’s match-ups, as Drumstick found.
  • A reliable A-tier Mon, but not S-tier in my eyes.
Staryu – A/B
  • I initially agreed with Staryu in B-tier, but I think a case could be made for A-tier.
  • Starmie is really good with Choice Specs, but its damage output is dependent upon inaccurate or low-base power coverage moves. However, I never found this to be a huge issue since Star rarely failed to do well in any of its fights.
  • Although it has a low encounter rate in the wild, I did not have much of an issue finding one. Natural Cure was nice, but it’s not nearly as important as Technician on Scyther. You do have to make a detour to get Choice Specs, but it’s worth the time to do so.
  • Its impressive performance in the late-game and ability to beat Lance’s team with a bit of switching leads me to consider Staryu A-tier.
Kenya – C/D
  • It performs well against most of the Gym Leaders, but it falls flat against the majority of the League.
  • Looking over its performance, I would consider Kenya to be a C-tier Mon. Outside of a few occasions, it never failed to do well in any of its fights. But, the level advantage it holds in the mid-game because of my mistake with Pryce leads me to question its placement in C-tier.
  • Thus, I give it a tentative nom for C, but I do not think that D is out of the question.
Cyndaquil – A
  • Quil’s performance matches what others have found. I don’t think anything more needs to be said about it in that regard. It’s just an inferior Charizard, even when it’s over-leveled.
  • Mother’s Savings are nice, but I’d rather have all of my money on hand since the Amulet Coin comes way too late in this game.
  • Getting a Silk Scarf and a free Moon Stone was nice, but both of these items can be acquired through other methods that aren’t dependent upon some unknown factor (Voltorb Flip, Pokeathlon).
  • I did get a Choice Scarf through Mother’s Savings, but nothing on my team could use it. Maybe Typhlosion, but its Speed was never an issue for me. Golem could have used it, but I’d need to collect several Heart Scales to get an ideal move-set, and it needs Rollout/D-Curl.
  • I’m also not certain what the monetary benchmarks are for getting certain items through Mother’s Savings. For this run, I did not get a Choice Scarf until Blackthorn City even after taking on almost every NPC trainer and major battle before Clair.
  • As a result of my inexperience with HGSS and work obligations, it took much longer than I thought to get through this game. I’ll try to make my future runs more efficient. Right now, I just need a break from the game then I'll go back to it at some point in the future.
 
Last edited:

Ryota Mitarai

Shrektimus Prime
is a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis a Top Smogon Media Contributor
OK so it turns out Misdreavus is available at Cliff Cave, with a 5% encounter rate at night. I have removed it from my Safari Post and thus Misdreavus may get a slightly higher tier, as it's no longer conditionally available. Jigglypuff, likewise, will be sanctioned less for its availability, as it appears in both Meadow and Swamp and only one default layout has neither, thus there's a 90% you will have access to Jigglypuff

Team is Spinarak / Natu / Misdreavus / Jigglypuff

Spinarak(13): 3HKOs Pidgey with Poison Sting. Pidgeotto is not beatable, obviously.


Spinarak(18): Night Shade spam wins this


Spinarak(20): Night Shade, due to Sitrus Berry, is a 4HKO on Scyther, which can overpower you with Quick Attack (especially if crits), with him heaing it not helping Spinarak in any ways.


Spinarak(21): Night Shade 2HKOs Zubat (though lower levels will likely fail to 2HKO) and can spam it on Bayleef till it's out of Synthesis PP. Shadow Sneak OHKOs Gastly.


Ariados(22): it can muscle through Clefairy with Fury Swipes. However, there's no way for it to beat Miltank, as it eats attacks like nothing. If you kept Scary Face (I didn't), you could debuff it and let a teammate handle it.


Ariados(23): Shadow Sneak OHKOs Gastly and 3HKOs Zubat (though you can 2HKO with Night Shade). Bayleef does the same as in last battle, so spam Night Shade till you win. Magnemite is OHKOed by Dig. Also 2HKOed by Night Shade


Ariados(25): Sneak OHKOs Gastly and 2HKOs Haunter, though the first one will Curse you. If you heal offscreen, you beat the other one easily. I wouldn't say this is impressive, given many other Pokemon handle this fight a lot better.


Ariados(27): Night Shade 2HKOs Zubat and Koffing, with Dig 2HKOing Raticate. However, you will likely have to heal to beat Raticate and Smokescreen can be nasty. If you are at level 28, you can use Sucker Punch to outspeed Raticate, avoiding a flinch.

Xatu(28): Use Specs here, as Solar Beam 2HKOs Raticate and it pretty much beats you. Specs Shadow Ball OHKOs the Poisons.

Misdreavus(27): Specs Charge Beam OHKOs Zubat and +1 OHKOs Koffing. Raticate is 2HKOed by +2 Specs Charge Beam and 3HKOs with Sucker Punch.

Wigglytuff(27): it can just Rollout sweep the team. It can afford some misses with inaccurate moves, if you go that route, as it's bulky.


Ariados(30): Specs Sludge Bomb 2HKOs Primeape, but it's faster and 2HKOs on rolls with Rock Slide, possibly flinching you anyways.

Xatu(30): bad matchup. Even with Miracle Eye to ignore Double Team, Shadow Ball is only a 3HKO, while Primeape, which is outsped, 2HKOs with Rock Slide. You can nail Poliwrath hard with Specs Solar Beam, putting it in red, though you need to worry about Hypnosis and Surf 3HKOs it anyways.

Misdreavus(30): Specs Psybeam 2HKOs and 3HKOs Primeape and Poliwrath. Poliwrath can be 1v1ed if at full and it never hits Hypnosis. Primeape outspeeds and sets up Double Team and can be annoying with Rock Slide flinches. It also 2HKOs Poliwrath with Specs Thunder. All in all, luckfest

Wigglytuff(30): Specs Thunder 2HKOs his mons. This is a luck-based matchup.


Ariados(30): Dig OHKOs Magnemite. Even if outsped, TBolt only 3HKOs.

Xatu(30): doesn't even 2HKO Magnemite with Specs Shadow Ball. Don't bother here.

Misdreavus(30): Specs Shadow Ball 2HKOs Magnemite and they 3HKO with Thunderbolt. Steelix is no. I'd say this matchup is not very impressive, given that it's very easy to OHKO her stuff with something else.

Wigglytuff(30): Specs Fire Blast OHKOs Magnemite and almost OHKOs Steelix. Outspeeds all


Ariados(31): Specs Sludge Bomb 2HKOs Seel. It 3HKOs Dewgong, who is faster and 4HKOs with Aurora Beam. It never goes for Rest, for whatever reason.

Xatu(31): Specs Solar Beam OHKOs Piloswine on rolls, as it goes for Ice Fang instead of Hail and you live one. Dewgong Aurora Beams and then KOs you with Ice Shard. You can also beat Seel, if you want to. It becomes harder with Hail, though.

Misdreavus(31): Specs Charge Beam 2HKOs Seel. Switch out against Piloswine. Against Dewgong, spam Shadow Ball, as it's a 3HKO and it doesn't deal much with Aurora Beam.

Wigglytuff(31): Specs Thunder OHKOs Seel and 2HKOs Dewgong. Rollout sweep doesn't work here, unfortunately. Dewgong enters potion spam, though


thoughts so far:

Ariados
Absolute garbage. The only good thing about it is that it levels up fast so it can deal more damage with Night Shade, but really, it is barely useful in major fights and its stats are terrible. My Shadow Sneak failed to 2HKO level 15 Venonat when it was like level 23. I have a feeling this will end up in E-tier

Xatu
Also not very good. It has no good Psychic or Flying STABs (no, Fly doesn't count), so it has to rely on Shadow Ball and occassionally Solar Beam. Not super reliable for most relevant matchups. Given it also requires a huge backtrack, this could easily be an E-tier.

Misdreavus
This has not been too bad. While it's not the most reliable thing, it's certainly rather useful in some scenarios. Leaning towards D for now.

Wigglytuff
Not too different from Clefable, imo, so lump them together for now.

e:

spinarak.jpg
misdreavus.jpg
natu.jpg
wigglytuff.jpg

(Wigglytuff has a higher SpA in gen 7, so assume SpA IVs are higher)
 

Ryota Mitarai

Shrektimus Prime
is a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis a Top Smogon Media Contributor
Ariados(33): terrible. Specs Sludge Bomb 2HKOs Koffing and struggles to break past Weezing. You will get lots of Smokescreens, making this matchup tedious

Xatu(32): Specs Shadow Ball OHKOs Koffing and 2HKOs Weezing. Get by with no Smokescreens and you win automatically.

Misdreavus(33): Specs Psybeam OHKOs Koffing and puts Weezing in red. If no Smokescreen, you win for sure.

Wigglytuff(33): Specs Fire Blast OHKOs Koffing and 2HKOs Weezing. Obv, you may miss, but that's the only way to beat Petrel quickly.


Ariados(33): Dig OHKOs Magnemite, Sucker Punch OHKOs Haunter if it goes for Shadow Ball directly, and it can beat Meganium with no problems.

Xatu(34): outspeeds and OHKOs Haunter with Shadow Ball. Meganium can be muscled through with spamming the same move till it goes for Petal Dance or you land SpD drops. Golbat is almost 2HKOed, but can spread hax.

Misdreavus(33): 2HKOs Golbat and Magnemite with Specs Shadow Ball, watch out for the latter's Thunder Wave. Haunter outspeeds and kills you with Shadow Ball. Meganium can be muscled through with Specs Shadow Spam

Wigglytuff(33): Thunder puts Golbat in red, though watch out for hax. Fire Blast OHKOs Magnemite and 2HKOs the other Fire-weak Pokemon.


Ariados(34): nope. Don't bother here. You can only spam Night Shade, which is slow as hell. You can beat Golbat by Night Shading two times then Sucker Punching. However, Weezing will beat you.

Xatu(35): Specs Shadow Ball 2HKOs everything.

Misdreavus(34): Specs Psybeam 2HKOs everything.

Wigglytuff(34): Thunder OHKOs Golbat and 2HKOs Weezing. Luckfest here.


Ariados(34): Specs Sludge Bomb 2HKOs Murkrow (OHKO if it poisons) and 3HKOs Vileplume. Murkrow 3HKOs you with Wing Attack and outspeeds you.

Xatu(35): bad. Specs Shadow Ball 2HKOs Arbok but gets paralyzed. Vileplume is 3HKOed. Gl with Murkrow.

Misdreavus(35): Specs Psybeam 2HKOs the Poison-types.

Wigglytuff(34): can Rollout sweep the entire team, if lucky.


Ariados(34): OHKOs Houndour with Dig, should it not get burned or flinched, as Fire Fang is a 2HKO.

Xatu(35): beats Koffing, I guess?

Misdreavus(35): beats Koffing, I guess?

Wigglytuff(35): just click Rollout and hope you are lucky. It's important NOT to DCurl, cause it will force Houndoom in earlier and that makes a difference.


thoughts are not too different from last time. I think Spinarak and Natu are pretty bad and so far deserve E-tier. Wigglytuff still feels like a Clefable to me. Misdreavus, I am leaning more towards D at this point, its Rocket performance was not super impressive and I feel like this should play some role into its ranking.
 

Ryota Mitarai

Shrektimus Prime
is a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis a Top Smogon Media Contributor
whooping triple post, but I am done with my run

Ariados(36): Specs Sludge Bomb 3HKOs Dragonair, who outspeeds and 3HKOs you with Dragon Pulse. Terrible matchup.

Xatu(36): bad. Specs Shadow Ball 3HKOs Dragonair, which paralyzes you. You are not really doing much. Dragon Pulse is a 2HKO on rolls

Misdreavus(37): OHKOs Gyara with Thunder, but takes heavy damage from Bite. Dragonair is 2HKOed by Specs Shadow Ball, while it 3HKOs with Dragon Pulse. You are taking out one threat at most from her team without healing.

Wigglytuff(37): Specs Thunder OHKOs Gyarados. Specs Blizzard OHKOs Dragonair on rolls and Wigglytuff is 3HKOed by Dragon Pulse.


Ariados(40): Sludge Bomb 3HKOs Sneasel, but it damages you a lot till you beat it. Kadabra is OHKOed by Sucker Punch, but if it sets up Reflec,t you are in trouble. Meganium can be muscled through, as always. Magneton is faster and paralyzes you, but Dig OHKOs.

Xatu(39): Specs Shadow Ball OHKOs Haunter and Kadabra, with the former being outsped. Keep in mind the latter can Disable it. Meganium can be muscled through, but it may take some time.

Misdreavus(40): Specs Shadow Ball 2HKOs Golbat and OHKOs Haunter and Kadabra, with Haunter being outsped. In a 1v1 scenario, Misdreavus and Meganium 3HKO each other.

Wigglytuff(39): It can try Rollout sweeping, which allows it to beat Sneasel and Golbat before Meganium takes it down. Magneton can be taken down if you kept Fire Blast. The rest are wildcards and generally not reliable (Kadabra disables Rollout, Haunter curses)


Ariados(42): terrible. All Psychics are OHKOs on rolls at worst and you are slower than everything bar Slowbro, which OHKOs anyways.

Xatu(42): Specs Shadow Ball OHKOs Xatu #1 and 2HKOs the rest. Jynx and Xatu #2 are faster. The former puts you to sleep and 2HKOs with Ice Punch. The latter 2HKOs with Ominous Wind and can also confuse you.

Misdreavus(42): Specs Shadow Ball OHKOs everything (with Slowbro being rolls). However, Jynx and Xatu #2 are faster and can cause problems with confusion or sleep.

Wigglytuff(42): it can hit hard anything it hits super effectively with Specs, but Wigglytuff, overall, is not really reliable here.


Ariados(42): struggles to take anything out at a reasonable speed. It will often fail to 3HKO things with Dig.

Xatu(42): only beats Ariados by 2HKOing it with Specs Shadow Ball. The rest are 3HKOed at worst and can cripple it or beat it significantly.

Misdreavus(43): Specs Psybeam 2HKOs Ariados and Venomoth, with Crobat and Muk being 3HKOed. Evasion screws this thing over, though.

Wigglytuff(42): it can try Rollout sweeping, which can take out Ariados, Forry, and potentially Muk.


Ariados(42): As always, it fails to even 2HKO stuff, so it will be slow in taking down anything. Not to mention a lot of things hit it super effectively.

Xatu(42): takes a lot of time to take out any of the Fighting-types, which can hit it hard, potentially, and Onix can hit it with Rock Slide while living a Specs Shadow Ball.

Misdreavus(43): Specs Psybeam 2HKOs Hitmons and Onix. Lee poses problems due to Swagger. You may need to heal at least once to do that well.

Wigglytuff(42): bad here. It cannot really hit them hard and they can hit it hard, in return, if they pack a Fighting move. Onix can be OHKOed by Blizzard, I guess?


Ariados(42): doesn't really do much here, given it's slow and hits like a noodle. Even Umbreon isn't threatened by Pin Missile

Xatu(42): hahahahahahahaha

Misdreavus(43): beats Gengar and Vileplume

Wigglytuff(42): can take out Murkrow and Vileplume with super effective moves


nothing on my team did much to him that'd be worth logging


nominations:

Spinarak -> E
Comes early, but it's so weak and has terrible movepool. Its contributions are negligible and mostly limited to non-high priority targets. I feel like we all saw that one coming, but someone had to test it so *shrug*

Natu -> E
Requires a huge detour in order to be obtained. Even after that, it's underwhelming, as it has no good STAB moves and will often either be bad for matchups or take some time to actually beat anything. I feel like Natu is not something that is worth the backtrack whatsoever.

Misdreavus -> D
Misdreavus can clean routes well and also has some useful matchups, such as (somewhat) Chuck, Will, Bruno, and Petrel #2. I don't think it's super useful, but it's got enough niche to not be in bottom tier.

Jigglypuff -> Clefairy tier
Just lump them in the same tier. While Clefairy hits a bit harder and has Encore, Jigglypuff has a better availability and Rollout + DCurl is sick, sometimes.

next run team: Togepi / Dunsparce / Grimer / Ponyta
 
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