Pokemon Ruby, Sapphire, and Emerald In-Game Tier List Discussion

Merritt

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OP adapted from sin(pi)'s DPP In-Game Tiers thread

Pokémon Ruby, Sapphire, and Emerald Version In-Game Tier List Discussion

What is an in-game tier list?
In-game tier lists rank Pokémon according to their usefulness during the main portion of the game — that is, until the credits roll for the first time. In-game tier lists provide players with the information needed to complete the game as quickly and as effortlessly as possible. For competitively-minded players, this approach to playing the game gives them more immediate access to useful items, TMs, and HMs.

What are the tiers?
In this in-game tier list there will be seven tiers (Or possibly more). Pokémon that are the most useful belong in the S-Tier, while Pokémon that are the least useful belong in the F-Tier. The tiers are as follows:

- S-Tier
- A-Tier
- B-Tier
- C-Tier
- D-Tier
- E-Tier
- F-Tier

Pokémon are tiered based on several factors:
- Availability: When the Pokémon can be first found, and how rare. Earlier Pokémon tend to rank higher.
- Typing: What is the Pokémon's typing and how useful it is in the game. More useful typings tend to rank higher.
- Stats: What their base stats are like and how they contribute to a team. Pokémon with better stats for in-game runs tend to rank higher.
- Movepool: What the Pokémon's movepool is like and how it contributes to a team. Pokémon with wider and more useful movepools tend to rank higher.
- Major Battles: How the Pokémon fares against key match-ups in the game. Pokémon who perform better against more major battles tend to rank higher.
- Other: Other aesthetics like abilities, levels, can minorly contribute to a Pokémon's tiering as well. Note that a Pokémon's physical appearance has no impact on its tiering!

Basically, Pokémon who are ranked higher in the tier list tend to be found earlier in the game (or at a higher level), can win more match-ups from the game's various trainers (including the Gym Leaders, the Elite Four, and Team Magma/Aqua), and have stronger movepools (usually being able to learn more TMs, HMs, and Level-up moves). They may have other useful qualities, such as more useful abilities, faster growth, or self-healing moves.

Which Pokémon are available and when in Pokémon Ruby Version, Pokémon Sapphire Version, and Pokémon Emerald Version?
Certain Pokemon are only obtainable in one version of Ruby, Sapphire, or Emerald. The following list details each Pokemon in the Hoenn Pokedex and the earliest time they are possible to catch, along with version exclusivity.

Pichu -> Pikachu -> Raichu - Pikachu in Safari Zone
Sandshrew -> Sandslash - Sandshrew in Route 111 (Emerald), Sandshrew in Route 113 (Ruby/Sapphire)
Vulpix -> Ninetales - Vulpix in the grass around Mt. Pyre
Igglybuff -> Jigglypuff -> Wigglytuff - Jigglypuff in Route 115 North
Zubat -> Golbat -> Crobat - Zubat in Granite Cave
Oddish -> Gloom -> Vileplume / Bellossom - Oddish in Route 110
Psyduck -> Golduck - Safari Zone
Abra -> Kadabra (-> Alakazam) - Route 116
Machop -> Machoke (-> Machamp) - Machop in Fiery Path
Tentacool -> Tentacruel - Dewford with an Old Rod
Geodude -> Graveler (-> Golem) - Geodude in Granite Cave
Magnemite -> Magneton - New Mauville
Doduo -> Dodrio - Doduo in Safari Zone
Grimer -> Muk - Grimer in Fiery Path
Voltorb -> Electrode - Voltorb in New Mauville
Koffing -> Weezing - Koffing in Fiery Path
Rhyhorn -> Rhydon - Rhyhorn in Safari Zone
Horsea -> Seadra (-> Kingdra) - Horsea in Route 132
Goldeen -> Seaking - Goldeen can be fished in Route 102 and Petalburg with an Old Rod
Staryu -> Starmie - Staryu can be fished in Lilycove with a Super Rod
Pinsir - Safari Zone
Magikarp -> Gyarados - Anywhere with an Old Rod
Chinchou -> Lanturn - Underwater
Natu -> Xatu - Natu in Safari Zone
Azurill -> Marill -> Azumarill - Marill in Route 104 (Emerald), Marill in Route 117 (Ruby/Sapphire)
Wynaut -> Wobbuffet - Wynaut egg received in Lavaridge
Girafarig - Safari Zone
Heracross - Safari Zone
Slugma -> Magcargo - Fiery Path
Corsola - Super Rod on Route 128
Skarmory - Route 113
Phanphy -> Donphan - Phanphy in Safari Zone
Treecko -> Grovyle -> Sceptile - Starter Pokemon
Torchic -> Combusken -> Blaziken - Starter Pokemon
Mudkip -> Marshtomp -> Swampert - Starter Pokemon
Poochyena -> Mightyena - Poochyena in Route 101
Zigzagoon -> Linoone - Zigzagoon in Route 101
Wurmple -> Silcoon -> Beautifly
-> Cascoon -> Dustox - Wurmple in Route 101
Lotad -> Lombre -> Ludicolo - Lotad in Route 102 (Sapphire/Emerald)
Seedot -> Nuzleaf -> Shiftry - Seedot in Route 102 (Ruby/Emerald)
Taillow -> Swellow - Taillow in Route 104
Wingull -> Pelipper - Wingull in Route 103
Ralts -> Kirlia -> Gardevoir - Ralts in Route 102
Surskit -> Masquerain - Surskit in Route 102 (Ruby/Sapphire)
Shroomish -> Breloom - Shroomish in Petalburg Woods
Slakoth -> Vigoroth -> Slaking - Slakoth in Petalburg Woods
Nincada -> Ninjask + Shedinja - Nincada in Route 116
Whismur -> Loudred -> Exploud - Whismur in Route 116
Makuhita -> Hariyama - Makuhita in Granite Cave
Nosepass - Granite Cave (requires Rock Smash)
Skitty -> Delcatty - Skitty in Route 116
Sableye - Granite Cave (Sapphire/Emerald)
Mawile - Granite Cave (Ruby), Victory Road (Emerald)
Aron -> Lairon -> Aggron - Aron in Granite Cave
Meditite -> Medicham - Meditite in Mt Pyre Grass (Ruby/Sapphire)
Electrike -> Manectric - Electrike in Route 110
Plusle / Minun - Route 110
Volbeat / Illumise - Route 117
Roselia - Route 117 (Ruby/Sapphire)
Gulpin -> Swalot - Gulpin in Route 110
Carvanha -> Sharpedo - Route 118 with Good Rod.
Wailmer -> Wailord - Route 110 with Good Rod.
Numel -> Camerupt - Numel on Route 112
Torkoal - Fiery Path
Spoink -> Grumpig - Spoink in Jagged Pass
Spinda - in Route 113
Trapinch -> Vibrava -> Flygon - Trapinch in Route 111
Cacnea -> Cacturne - Cacnea in Route 111
Swablu -> Altaria - Swablu in Route 114
Zangoose - Route 114 (Ruby)
Seviper - Route 114 (Sapphire/Emerald)
Lunatone - Meteor Falls (Sapphire)
Solrock - Meteor Falls (Ruby/Emerald)
Barboach -> Whiscash - Fished in Route 111 with Good Rod.
Corphish -> Crawdawnt - Good Rod in Petalburg
Baltoy -> Claydol - Baltoy in Route 111
Lileep -> Cradily - Revive fossils.
Anorith -> Armaldo - Revive fossils
Feebas -> Milotic - Route 119 (Feebas Fishing)
Castform - Gift at Weather Institute
Kecleon - Route 120
Shuppet -> Banette - Route 121 (Sapphire/Emerald), Mt Pyre Interior (Ruby)
Duskull -> Dusclops - Route 121 (Ruby), Mt Pyre Interior (Sapphire/Emerald)
Tropius - Route 119
Chimecho - Mt Pyre summit
Absol - Route 120
Spheal -> Sealeo -> Walrein - Shoal Cave
Clamperl (-> Huntail / Gorebyss) - Underwater
Relicanth - Underwater
Luvdisc - Good/Super Rod on Route 128
Bagon -> Shelgon -> Salamence - Meteor Falls back room. Requires Waterfall.
Regirock - Route 111. Requires Dive.
Regice - Route 105. Requires Dive.
Registeel - Route 120. Requires Dive.
Kyogre - Cave of Origin. (Sapphire)
Groudon - Cave of Origin. (Ruby)
Rayquaza - Sky Pillar 2nd visit (Emerald)

the Beldum family, Deoxys, Jirachi, and the Lati twins are unavailable pre-E4.

(Adapted from Zystral's with minor adjustements)

What is, and what is not being tiered?
A Pokémon that is not being tiered is not being so if:
-They come from an event
-They cannot be captured/obtained until the postgame
-They cannot be caught in-game

Trade Evolution
Pokémon with trade evolutions will be tiered separately, one entry for "with trading" and one for "without". If both with and without are classed in the same tier after most things are tiered, they may be merged.

Current Rankings
These can be found in the next post. Note that there is only one tier list, so keep in mind version exclusives.

Formatting
Use the following format if you want to submit a write-up for a Pokémon:


Name
Availability:
When does this Pokémon become available? Is it easy or hard to encounter and catch?
Stats: Describe how a Pokémon's stats make it excel. Is it a deadly sweeper or a strong wall? Discuss why you would use this Pokemon thank to its stats.
Typing: Discuss this Pokémon's typing in a sentence or two. Is its STAB efficient or not, does it have any great resistances or glaring weaknesses?
Movepool: Describe this Pokémon's movepool in a few sentences. Does it have many effective movepool options through level up? Is it overreliant on TMs to function? Does it have access to useful HM's to help you traverse the region?
Major Battles: Describe how the Pokémon handles the major opponents throughout the game. Notable opponents and battles include the Gym Leaders, battles against various (named) members of Team Magma/Aqua, the various rival battles, the Elite Four themselves, and the Champion. Try to avoid spoilers if possible!
Additional Comments: Discuss any miscellaneous information not covered in other sections here. Factors such as experience growth, abilities, and other lesser characteristics can be discussed here, as well as (opportunity) cost - does it require constant healing, highly sought-after TMs (eg Earthquake), or expensive Game Corner items, for example? The entry can be wrapped up here as well.

Please write professionally.

Some guidelines to follow:
- No glitches allowed.
- No trading in Pokémon from other games. For back-and-forth trading to evolve Haunter, Kadabra, etc., read above.
- We do not decide the tiering of one Pokémon based on its performance relative to another Pokémon. It does not matter if Pokémon X does the same thing better than Pokémon Y; if both are good enough for the same tier, they will be placed as such. (e.g. Corphish should be E-Tier, because Carvanha does its job way better)
- Note that while an efficient run has many similarities to a speedrun, they are not identical. Look at this post for some elaboration.
- Have fun!

Feel free to dispute and discuss other users submissions, but please, no flaming. Normal forum rules apply here. Finally, this is not the place to talk about the games in general.

This will be done in a few phases. First, initial tiering and placing, then writing up the entries, then finally reviewing placings and write-ups. Then we will attempt to get it on-site.

Resources
http://www.smogon.com/ingame/misc/adv_rse_ingametiers

(Note this is pretty old)
 
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Merritt

literally the textbook definition of a tsundere
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Current Rankings

S-Tier
: Reserved for Pokémon who possess the highest levels of efficiency of the available options in the Pokémon Ruby, Sapphire, and Emerald versions. Pokémon in this tier are able to OHKO or 2HKO an overwhelming majority of opponents, limiting the amount of attacks used against them, and possess minimal reliance on items to help assist them defeat opponents at like levels. These Pokémon usually show up before the late-game and any flaws they have are absolutely made up by their advantages.

Abra (Trade)
Mudkip
Torchic



A-Tier: Reserved for Pokémon whose efficiency in terms of completing the game is considered to be very high. Pokémon in this tier are able to OHKO or 2HKO a lot of opponents and are not very reliant on items to succeed, but either have some visible flaws that hurt their efficiency or have their usefulness counterbalanced by a late arrival.

Abra (No Trade)
Groudon
Kyogre
Ralts
Rayquaza
Shroomish
Treecko
Zangoose




B-Tier: Reserved for Pokémon whose efficiency in terms of completing the game is considered to be high. Pokémon in this tier are able to OHKO or 2HKO a fair chunk of opponents and may have a bit of item reliance to assist in sweeping opponents. These Pokémon are still very useful but either have several visible flaws holding them back or come fairly late.

Absol
Barboach
Carvanha
Chinchou
Electrike
Heracross
Machop (Trade)
Magikarp
Magnemite
Makuhita
Marill
Oddish (Vileplume)
Staryu
Taillow
Tentacool
Wingull
Zigzagoon (RS)


C-Tier: Reserved for Pokémon whose efficiency in terms of completing the game is considered to be moderately high. Pokémon in this tier are able to OHKO or 2HKO a reasonable portion of opponents but are matchup-based enough to need some item reliance to assist in sweeping some opponents. These Pokémon are useful but either have several visible flaws holding them back or barely make up for their late arrivals.

Doduo
Geodude (Trade)
Machop (No Trade)
Meditite
Numel
Oddish (Bellossom)
Pikachu
Psyduck
Skarmory
Spoink
Trapinch
Tropius
Voltorb
Zigzagoon (E)
Zubat



D-Tier: Reserved for Pokémon whose efficiency in terms of completing the game is considered to be average. Pokémon in this tier are able to OHKO or 2HKO a reasonable portion of opponents but are matchup-based enough to need some item reliance to assist in sweeping some opponents. These Pokémon are useful but either have several visible flaws holding them back or barely make up for their late arrivals.

Aron
Baltoy
Corphish
Geodude (No Trade)
Girafarig
Grimer
Gulpin
Kecleon
Koffing
Lotad
Lunatone
Poochyena
Pinsir
Roselia
Shuppet
Slakoth
Solrock
Spheal
Swablu
Torkoal
Wailmer


E-Tier: Reserved for Pokémon whose efficiency in terms of completing the game is considered to be low. Pokémon in this tier are able to OHKO or 2HKO a small amount of opponents and tend to be matchup-based enough to need item reliance to assist in sweeping a few opponents. The usefulness of these Pokémon are typically counterbalanced by many visible flaws or are useful Pokémon that come very late.

Cacnea
Castform
Duskull
Lileep
Mawile (R)
Minun
Natu
Nincada (Ninjask)
Nincada (Shedinja)
Phanpy
Plusle
Regice
Sableye
Sandshrew
Seedot
Seviper
Snorunt
Vulpix
Whismur
Wurmple (Beautifly)
Wurmple (Dustox)


F-Tier: Reserved for Pokémon who possess the worst efficiency of those available in Pokémon Ruby, Sapphire, and Emerald irrespective of their availability. These Pokémon outright lose a lot of 1v1 matchups at like levels unless they are assisted with significant item support, or are otherwise ridiculously inefficient to capture. The flaws of these Pokémon completely mask whatever advantage they could possibly have and hence, should never be considered seriously for an efficient run-through.

Anorith
Bagon
Chimecho
Clamperl (No Trade)
Clamperl (Gorebyss)
Clamperl (Huntail)
Corsola
Feebas
Goldeen
Horsea (Trade)
Horsea (No Trade)
Illumise
Jigglypuff
Luvdisc
Mawile (E)
Nosepass
Regirock
Registeel
Relicanth
Rhyhorn
Skitty
Slugma
Spinda
Surskit
Volbeat
Wynaut
 
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Merritt

literally the textbook definition of a tsundere
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reserved

Please post all discussion about preliminary rankings!
 

Karxrida

Fated
is a Community Contributor
Regice is listed as both D and E. Also, please please please alphabetize your subtier lists.

Rayquaza (Emerald) should be S. As mentioned in the previous thread, it literally solos the endgame thanks to its level and stats, and it only needs its natural movepool to do so. While it comes late and necessitates a bit of a detour, the sheer dominance it exerts over the last fights more than makes up for these small flaws and justifies an S placement.
 
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Shuppet is listed twice, Feebas is listed as both D and E, and Oddish's and Clamperl's final evolutions aren't listed separately. Horsea (yes trade), Phanpy, Girafarig, Baltoy, Horsea (no trade), and Corsola are completely missing. I think Pichu should be listed as Pikachu because it's impossible to obtain a Pichu unless the player already has a Pikachu. Also, why is Marill so much better in Emerald than in the other two games?
 
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Merritt

literally the textbook definition of a tsundere
is a member of the Site Staffis a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Contributor to Smogon
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Regice is listed as both D and E. Also, please please please alphabetize your subtier lists.

Rayquaza (Emerald) should be S. As mentioned in the previous thread, it literally solos the endgame thanks to its level and stats, and it only needs its natural movepool to do so. While it comes late and necessitates a bit of a detour, the sheer dominance it exerts over the last fights more than makes up for these small flaws and justifies an S placement.
Regice fixed and now listed at D, and alphabetized version of list updated.

The issue with Rayquaza is purely how late it is. That is its only flaw, but it's a significant one. No other pokemon in any game comes close to its dominance in the end of the game, but at that point you're left with 6 major fights (7 if you include Wally) if you choose to go get Rayquaza before Juan. I and a couple other people who I talked about the preliminary rankings with agreed it was A purely due to availability, but it's definitely the best of A and very close to S. If there's a consensus for S then I'd be happy to move it up.

Shuppet is listed twice, Feebas is listed as both D and E, and Oddish's and Clamperl's final evolutions aren't listed separately. I think Pichu should be listed as Pikachu because Pikachu is the one that's found wild. Also, why is Marill so much better in Emerald than in the other two? Why is Goldeen E tier when it's available early and its stats aren't too much below average?
Fixed, Bellossom added to D, Gorebyss and Huntail both in E. Pichu updated to Pikachu to be consistent with Jigglypuff.

Marill is so much better in Emerald due to availability differences, as shown in the hide availability in the initial post. Basically, Marill in Emerald comes before Roxanne, Marill in Ruby and Sapphire comes right before Wattson. Similarly this is why Mawile is listed separately, since in Ruby it comes at Granite Cave and in Emerald it comes at Victory Road.

Goldeen is in E due in part to a really bad movepool, where the only notable moves it gets early are peck (its only attack until), horn attack at level 15, and horn drill (debatably useful) at 43 (49 as Seaking). It also gets very few TMs, absolutely none of them early. Its stats are also actually not particularly good, its only notable one being moderately good attack, which does fall off due to its limited physical movepool and fairly late evolution at 33. Its special attack is horrible, even as Seaking. In short, Goldeen's role at best can be summed up earlygame as a physical attacker with Peck and Horn Attack after level 15 off decent Attack who gets almost no other particularly good or useful moves, and whose stats fall off fairly quickly due to an extremely limited movepool. All of this offsets its mildly early appearance and puts it down in E in my opinion.
 

Merritt

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Horsea (Trade) and Phanpy added to D, Horsea (No Trade) and Corsola added to E due to lack of redeeming qualities and absolutely obscene lateness. Please feel free to make nominations for where you think Girafarig and Baltoy would fit best, I'm inclined to think D for both due to lateness on Girafarig's part but a decent movepool as a psychic type for its stats, while Baltoy has a good movepool and doesn't come too late but has horrible stats until a relatively far off evolution at level 36.
 
Please feel free to make nominations for where you think Girafarig and Baltoy would fit best, I'm inclined to think D for both due to lateness on Girafarig's part but a decent movepool as a psychic type for its stats, while Baltoy has a good movepool and doesn't come too late but has horrible stats until a relatively far off evolution at level 36.
Girafarig and Baltoy both look like E tier evolution families to me.
 
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On second thought, they both look more like E tier. Baltoy evolves late, Girafarig is available late, and neither have good offensive stats. Girafarig's offensive typing and level up movepool are especially bad.
Also, are you sure that putting almost 60 evolution families in D tier is a good idea? There's a lot of diversity within the current D tier, so I think either some D tier Pokemon should get moved out or the D tier should split.
 
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I think the speed stat is important to in-game tiering for three main reasons.
First, there are many cases in which two Pokemon face off, and both can 2HKO each other, and the fastest Pokemon would obviously win all of these battles.
As an extension of the first reason, those two Pokemon would usually still 2HKO each other if one was a bit underleveled, so good speed buys the opportunity to be underleveled.
Third, a fast Pokemon would be able to weaken an opponent before it uses something like confuse ray or double team, so players that use fast Pokemon spend less time dealing with stuff like evasion boosts and confusion.
Now for the part that people actually care about.

I think these evolution families should move up for being fast.
Nincada (Ninjask)
Voltorb
Treecko
Zubat
Plusle
Minun
Volbeat

I think these evolution families should move down for being slow.
Tropius
Numel
Oddish (Vileplume)
Slugma (honestly, how is this thing useful for anything other than EV training?)
Relicanth
Cacnea
Duskull
Corphish
Kecleon
Lileep
Mawile (R)
Torkoal
Sableye
Koffing
 
I think the speed stat is important to in-game tiering for three main reasons.
First, there are many cases in which two Pokemon face off, and both can 2HKO each other, and the fastest Pokemon would obviously win all of these battles.
As an extension of the first reason, those two Pokemon would usually still 2HKO each other if one was a bit underleveled, so good speed buys the opportunity to be underleveled.
Third, a fast Pokemon would be able to weaken an opponent before it uses something like confuse ray or double team, so players that use fast Pokemon spend less time dealing with stuff like evasion boosts and confusion.
Now for the part that people actually care about.

I think these evolution families should move up for being fast.
Nincada (Ninjask)
Voltorb
Treecko
Zubat
Plusle
Minun
Volbeat

I think these evolution families should move down for being slow.
Tropius
Numel
Oddish (Vileplume)
Slugma (honestly, how is this thing useful for anything other than EV training?)
Relicanth
Cacnea
Duskull
Corphish
Kecleon
Lileep
Mawile (R)
Torkoal
Sableye
Koffing
The problem is that there is more to a stat distribution than speed alone. Yes, in a matchup of two, theoretically even pokes, speed is a determining factor into who wins, but most of the time it won't be that even due to discrepancies in each poke's bulk. And movepool is a huge factor as well. Take, for example, your nom of volbeat moving up. Volbeat has a pretty sorry attack stat (73) and only gets Signal Beam for a level-up attack that isn't a normal type. Otherwise you have to spend valuable TMs like Shadow Ball and Brick Break on a bad poke. The same applies to Voltorb (basically it doesn't help if you're fast when you can't hit hard or have bad defenses).

I could maybe argue for Plusle (hadn't used it but it has an ok SpA stat considering it's currently E rank), Minun (used it a long time ago, but seem to remember it functioning decently enough) and Treecko moving up. Also, against Vileplume, Tropius, and Numel dropping (Tropius is a good HM Slave and Numel is a good mixed attacker with pretty good defenses)
 

Merritt

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I think the speed stat is important to in-game tiering for three main reasons.
First, there are many cases in which two Pokemon face off, and both can 2HKO each other, and the fastest Pokemon would obviously win all of these battles.
As an extension of the first reason, those two Pokemon would usually still 2HKO each other if one was a bit underleveled, so good speed buys the opportunity to be underleveled.
Third, a fast Pokemon would be able to weaken an opponent before it uses something like confuse ray or double team, so players that use fast Pokemon spend less time dealing with stuff like evasion boosts and confusion.
Now for the part that people actually care about.

I think these evolution families should move up for being fast.
Nincada (Ninjask)
Voltorb
Treecko
Zubat
Plusle
Minun
Volbeat
Your points about speed are correct, sure, but at the same time you do have to consider movepool and offensive stats for these pokemon as well since even if you hit first it doesn't mean that you're going to actually get a 2HKO or OHKO. These are the main issues with each of these pokemon.

Ninjask comes early and has respectable attack which is obviously counterbalanced by flat out bad defenses. Its movepool, however, is absolutely terrible. Your offensive options on evolution are: scratch, fury cutter, fury swipes, and leech life (20 BP). And cut. These are obviously Not Very Good options. Your TM movepool is also shallow, your best options until Winona being Secret Power (comes after fiery path) and dig (non-STAB, 60 BP, low PP, two turn move). You get slash at level 31 which is alright but is basically just Secret Power but arguably worse, and finally get Aerial Ace and Shadow Ball after Winona and just before Lilycove. These leave Ninjask in a position of having good attack but nearly no way to leverage it, which is why it's in D.

Voltorb: Electric type attacks. And thief (40 BP). Maybe hidden power if you're lucky. It also has middling offensive stats, and comes moderately late for what it offers (after gym 5). At this point it's almost a liability - I could see it moving up to D if only because it's alright against Winona and Gym 8 doesn't like it, but there's just so many better options too.

Treecko: It's got Leaf Blade and that's absolutely amazing, but that's actually well into midgame. By that point Absorb and Quick Attack have definitely lost their luster, and after Leaf Blade it's downhill until after Tate and Liza at which point you gain access to a bunch of great physical TMs for Sceptile. It's definitely a movepool issue here, it's fine and gets the job done which is why it's at B, but it's also pretty disappointing as well for dominating the game.

Zubat: Its early game is absolutely hellish until you finally get to Wing Attack at level 21. Steel Wing is alright but not great, especially considering that Zubat itself has pretty lackluster stats - including speed - and finally getting the absolutely great Sludge Bomb isn't until after Norman which is a huge letdown.

Plusle/Minun: Their movepool is worse than Voltorb's is. Their movepool is Spark. And Quick Attack off 50/40 attack. They do not get anything of note for the entire game, and Plusle's special attack is only alright. Plusle could maybe move up to D because its special attack is better than Minun's, but they're both absolute garbage.

Volbeat: It's not even particularly fast honestly, its attack is alright but not very good, and your only physical attacking move that's worth any time whatsoever (until after Winona, again) is Signal Beam at level 25. Its special attack is so horrible that its acceptable special movepool with TMs isn't worth considering. It never really ends up being worth using, I guess maybe it's slightly helpful against the Aqua/Magma Poochyena and Mightyena? It's also alright vs Sidney if you take the absolutely absurd time to grind up a terrible pokemon vs the easiest E4 member.

The stuff for moving down I'd be happy to explain their current rankings, but I thought I'd shed some light on why these pokemon are where they are right now.
 

atsync

Where the "intelligence" of TRAINERS is put to the test!
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I think ranking Voltorb alongside the likes of Luvdisc and Wynaut is a bit harsh considering that it has two good gym match-ups, select targets against the Elite 4, and can make mince meat of all of those Water-type trainers that dominate late-game.
 
you do have to consider movepool
Its movepool, however, is absolutely terrible.
Electric type attacks. And thief (40 BP). Maybe hidden power if you're lucky.
By that point Absorb and Quick Attack have definitely lost their luster, and after Leaf Blade it's downhill
absolutely hellish until you finally get to Wing Attack at level 21.
Their movepool is Spark. And Quick Attack off 50/40 attack.
your only physical attacking move that's worth any time whatsoever (until after Winona, again) is Signal Beam at level 25.
At least stuff like Voltorb, Zubat, Plusle, Minun, and Volbeat can learn one good STAB, even if it requires a TM. (and shadow ball can be obtained before battling Winona; doing so only requires a bit of backtracking after the TM) There are plenty of Pokemon with worse movepools. If a bad movepool lowers the evolution family's tier, and this is to be consistent (which I think it should), then shouldn't the following evolution families get moved down?
Tropius: no good grass STAB, flying STAB and all good coverage moves use its weak physical attack
Relicanth: best STAB is rock tomb unless it's hatched from an egg and level ground all the way to level 40, only good coverage move is earthquake
Cacnea: best STABs are feint attack and needle arm, only coverage is focus punch, which is unreliable and requires a hard-to-replace TM
Duskull: best level up attack is shadow punch
Corphish: no good dark STAB, water STAB uses its weak special attack stat, requires hard-to-replace TMs for coverage moves like brick break and sludge bomb
Absol: best STAB is bite, which uses weak base power and weak special attack stat, all good attacks require non-renewable TMs
Kecleon: no good STAB due to ability, best level up attack is ancient power
Lileep: best STAB is ancient power unless it's hatched from an egg and level ground all the way to level 30, requires hard-to-replace TMs for coverage moves like sludge bomb and earthquake
Mawile (R): no STAB at all, best level up attack is crunch, which uses the weak special attack stat, requires non-renewable TMs for coverage moves like sludge bomb and brick break
Koffing: best level up attack is sludge
Wurmple (Beautifly): all STABs use its weak physical attack, best STAB is silver wind, only good special attack is psychic
Pinsir: no STAB at all
Poochyena: all STABs use its weak special attack, requires non-renewable TMs for good attacks like iron tail and shadow ball
Swablu: best level up attack is dragon breath
Trapinch: best level up attack is dig, dragon STAB uses its weak special attack, requires hard-to-replace TMs for good attacks like earthquake and iron tail
Carvanha: all STABs use its weak special attack, only good physical attack is earthquake, which requires a hard-to-replace TM
 
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At least stuff like Voltorb, Zubat, Plusle, Minun, and Volbeat can learn one good STAB, even if it requires a TM. There are plenty of Pokemon with worse movepools. If a bad movepool lowers the evolution family's tier, and this is to be consistent (which I think it should), then shouldn't the following evolution families get moved down?

Trapinch: best level up attack is dig, dragon STAB uses its weak special attack, requires hard-to-replace TMs for good attacks like earthquake and iron tail
Carvanha: all STABs use its weak special attack, only good physical attack is earthquake, which requires a hard-to-replace TM
I'm not going to comment on most of these, but Trapinch and Carvanha should 100% NOT move down due to a "bad movepool." Again, there is more to a poke than movepool; you have to look at a large variety of factors. Trapinch has 80 special attack as a Flygon (when it actually has STAB) which I wouldn't consider "weak" and Flygon is a good user of TMs, so it's not really a waste (someone has to use them). Also, Sharpedo has 95 special attack (so yes, Sharpedo would prefer to use physical attacks, but 2 special STABs off of 95 SpA is definitely not weak).

Voltorb, Minun, and Volbeat all have only 1 STAB type to utilize and they are all off of attacking stats of 80 or worse, which is frankly really bad (plus Volbeat's STAB Signal Beam isn't even strong vs neutral targets; it's like 65 BP) Even though someone like Flygon only has 80 SpA, they also have 100 attack for the Ground STAB, so it is a moot point.
 
I'm not going to comment on most of these, but Trapinch and Carvanha should 100% NOT move down due to a "bad movepool." Again, there is more to a poke than movepool; you have to look at a large variety of factors.
I do agree with this. However, I didn't suggest lowering every single evolution family with a bad movepool; I did consider other factors when suggesting to lower these Pokemon. As for Carvanha and Trapinch specifically, I thought they should go down also because both suffer a bit from late availability, and Trapinch suffers especially bad from late evolution.
 

Merritt

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At least stuff like Voltorb, Zubat, Plusle, Minun, and Volbeat can learn one good STAB, even if it requires a TM. There are plenty of Pokemon with worse movepools. If a bad movepool lowers the evolution family's tier, and this is to be consistent (which I think it should), then shouldn't the following evolution families get moved down?
Tropius: no good grass STAB, flying STAB and all good coverage moves use its weak physical attack
Relicanth: best STAB is rock tomb unless it's hatched from an egg and level ground all the way to level 40, only good coverage move is earthquake
Cacnea: best STABs are feint attack and needle arm, only coverage is focus punch, which is unreliable and requires a hard-to-replace TM
Duskull: best level up attack is shadow punch
Corphish: no good dark STAB, water STAB uses its weak special attack stat, requires hard-to-replace TMs for coverage moves like brick break and sludge bomb
Absol: best STAB is bite, which uses weak base power and weak special attack stat, all good attacks require non-renewable TMs
Kecleon: no good STAB due to ability, best level up attack is ancient power
Lileep: best STAB is ancient power unless it's hatched from an egg and level ground all the way to level 30, requires hard-to-replace TMs for coverage moves like sludge bomb and earthquake
Mawile (R): no STAB at all, best level up attack is crunch, which uses the weak special attack stat, requires non-renewable TMs for coverage moves like sludge bomb and brick break
Koffing: best level up attack is sludge
Wurmple (Beautifly): best level up attack is silver wind, only good special attacks are giga drain and psychic
Pinsir: no STAB at all
Poochyena: all STABs use its weak special attack, requires non-renewable TMs for good attacks like iron tail and shadow ball
Swablu: best level up attack is dragon breath
Trapinch: best level up attack is dig, dragon STAB uses its weak special attack, requires hard-to-replace TMs for good attacks like earthquake and iron tail
Carvanha: all STABs use its weak special attack, only good physical attack is earthquake, which requires a hard-to-replace TM
So for a lot of these you say they have weak attacking stats and they really just don't. I do go into detail on these below.

Tropius: Comes with Razor Leaf and is very few levels away from Magical Leaf, which has one of the highest base powers of any grass type attack this gen at 60 (outdone only by Solarbeam, Petal Dance, and Leaf Blade and tied by Needle Arm and Giga Drain). It also comes extremely close to Fly, which (while a 2 turn) is the strongest flying type attack in the game except Sky Attack (note that Drill Peck is unavailable in RSE without trading). Tropius is also one of the absolute best HM slaves, and its attack and special attack are about equal and acceptable for that point in the game.

Relicanth: Honestly I agree with this one, it has utility as an HM slave and has a couple decent physical attacking options but it's definitely not good and comes late.

Cacnea: Like noted earlier, Needle Arm is a pretty strong grass type attack in the context of the generation, and Faint Attack is the same way, only beaten by Crunch. It can also utilize its strong mixed attacking stats to use coverage like Strength which isn't amazing but gets the job done. It's a D rank for a reason.

Duskull: Comes right at Shadow Ball and has an extremely good TM movepool. Similar to Cacnea, this is why it's D rank.

Corphish: It's entirely reasonable to catch this with a Good Rod only a couple levels from evolution (30), at which point it's Crawdaunt with a somewhere between acceptable and good Special Attack at 90. It's also got surf out of the can. Honestly it's only really ranked this low due to coming moderately late - I could see an argument for C although I wouldn't heavily support it.

Absol: Has decent at best Special Attack and a good special movepool with TMs, but also has ludicrously high physical attack allowing it to make use of Strength, Aerial Ace, and Shadow Ball if you want which all come very close to Absol's arrival. This is also why it is D.

Kecleon: I could move this down to E, but considering that you literally cannot miss this Pokemon and it has an alright physical movepool with TMs it seems a little bit silly. I'd be happy to do so if there's some support for it though.

Lileep: Alright, if other people support it this will go down to E. It's not terrible but it's reliant on difficult TMs and doesn't have a particularly useful typing overall.

Mawile (R): Keep in mind that Mawile is coming pretty early, allowing it to leverage its high (for that point of the game) attack and defense despite a poor movepool. It's a D rank mon which is there purely on the basis of stats and availability. It's not a really a long term thing though.

Koffing: Usable offensive stats backed up by a good TM movepool. Sludge is there pretty much right away and is a fine STAB for a little while until you do have access to Sludge Bomb if you choose to use it on Koffing, and can also play as a Pokemon Remover with Selfdestruct and much later Explosion to take out single annoying pokemon of major battles. Again, D rank for a reason.

Wurmple (Beautifly): This is not a long term pokemon. It has very good special attack for that moment in the game since you get it ludicrously early and just like Dustox it invalidates Brawly in every way. It falls off hard afterwards and usually is one of the first thing you can easily replace, but for a little while in earlygame it's quite useful. Which is why it is D.

Pinsir: Doesn't have STAB but does have one of the best fighting type movepools by level up in the game along with amazingly high attack to make full use of it. You can also give it Earthquake much later if you want to allow it to continue onwards. Its stats overall are just amazingly good and its movepool, while STABless, is pretty effective. This along with coming fairly late is why it's D.

Poochyena: This is an early game utility attacker. It drops off extremely fast but its availability is only beaten by your starter. That is why it is D.

Swablu: Main reason for use is due to an extremely good type on evolution, but it does also have a good level up movepool. I could see it moving down because it's not very good considering C, but it's definitely not particularly bad.

Trapinch: Honestly this thing's only issue is getting up to Flygon, at which point it's capable of finishing off the rest of the game fairly well with too much TM investment. Its special attack as Flygon along with typing let it dominate fairly well the lategame. While its availability isn't great, it comes at an absolutely solid midgame (no literally, this is actually midgame since it's immediately following the fourth gym).

Carvanha: This comes basically immediately with Surf, Crunch, and 95 base special attack since Sharpedo is level 30. Note that 95 special attack is actually really good. It also has good options with TMs, including Strength which is pretty strong neutrally due to high base attack and the late Earthquake although Sharpedo doesn't need it. The only thing you can possibly criticize offensively is the fact that it comes solidly midgame (directly after gym 5). This is definitely a B rank mon, the only things keeping it from A are that it comes moderately late midgame and its very poor defenses.


Tl;dr Relicanth, Lileep, and Swablu I'm fine with moving down as long as there's other support, Kecleon's borderline but I'm happy to be convinced, the rest I heavily disagree with. Note that most of the things you mentioned are D rank, so they do have a specific niche that they're filling which works fairly well for them.

Another note: Voltorb and Plusle I'm fine for moving up unless anybody else disagrees, they've got acceptable special attack and work as pure electric attack users. They're one trick ponies but they're alright one trick ponies, meaning that they'd be fine for D rank overall. Zubat is definitely a C rank mon because of how painful it actually is to get up to Wing Attack although things become much better after that. You're still working basically only off Wing Attack however until Sludge Bomb after gym 5. Minun is Plusle but worse in basically every way and considering that Plusle is barely hanging on to D Minun won't be going up without a lot of support. Volbeat is weak, has poor defenses longterm, and doesn't have a particularly useful STAB for a long time after you get it and by the time a bug STAB becomes more useful Volbeat's stats just aren't good enough.
 
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I just wanted to make sure you knew that fly is weaker than drill peck (which is learned by Doduo), sky attack, aeroblast, and bounce, making it the fifth strongest flying attack.
 
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atsync

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Minun is Plusle but worse in basically every way and considering that Plusle is barely hanging on to D Minun won't be going up without a lot of support.
I don't mean to harp on about these guys, but does Minun's 10 lower Attack and Special Attack really make a practical difference in-game? Minun is certainly slightly worse than Plusle in terms of stat distribution, but unless that slight drop in attacking power actually causes Minun to miss lots of OHKOs and 2HKOs that Plusle is able to get, I don't really see a justification for arbitrarily placing Minun below Plusle. They seem to function virtually identically. To me it's a bit like the difference between Nidoking and Nidoqueen in other games: there is a general consensus that Nidoking is superior but the differences have such a small effect on their practical performance in the games they appear in that they generally end up in the same tier (although I'll concede that the on-site FRLG list is an exception to this).

Also want to point out that Minun is more common in Ruby and Emerald (15%) than Plusle (2%), so in those games at least I wouldn't say Plusle is "better in every way" than Minun. I think I'd rather use Minun in those games if I decided to use one of them.
 

Treecko, Grovyle, Sceptile
Availability:
As most people know, Treecko is one of the starters, so it's available before the first ever battle (which I'm pretty sure counts as early). This also means the player can receive a Treecko for free instead of taking the time to find and catch it. This early availability allows the player to use Treecko in every battle, so it gets plenty of opportunities to be useful.
Evolution: I think this affects a Pokemon's effectiveness in playthroughs just as much as stuff like typing and movepools, so I'll discuss this in my nominations and analyses and hope you do as well. As for Treecko specifically, its only requirement for evolution is being higher than a certain level, which means that raising one involves exp. share training and no other complications. Treecko doesn't learn many good moves after its evolution levels, so it's best to evolve Treecko as soon as it starts trying to evolve.
Stats: One of the two things that sets Treecko apart from the other starters is its speed. Treecko will outspeed everything it faces except Ninjask (which are easy to beat with other Pokemon) stuff from the Taillow and Zubat families (which it shouldn't face anyway) and stuff from the Voltorb family (which it beats anyway). In addition to letting Treecko defeat slightly more powerful and slightly overleveled opponents, the ability to move first reduces the time spent dealing with stuff like evasion boosts and confusion. Treecko is blessed with good special attack, also the highest of the starters, which lets it win most battles (when not hindered by typing) after it learns leaf blade. Its decent physical attack lets it put moves like strength to good use when leaf blade is not very effective.
Typing: Treecko doesn't benefit much defensively from its grass typing, as it's very vulnerable to common flying type attacks. On the other hand, grass makes for a good STAB type, allowing Treecko to easily break through the water Pokemon used by late-game trainers, especially Wallace, Juan, and Glacia. There are still some Pokemon that resist grass, so Treecko will often rely on other attacks, like strength, to win battles.
Movepool: Unfortunately, the other thing that sets Treecko apart from the other starters is that its first good move is strength, which doesn't come until after the third gym. However, once it does learn both strength and leaf blade, it starts winning battles and continues doing so almost all the way through the Elite Four. The HMs it can learn are cut, flash, rock smash, and strength. Because leaf blade is the only non-HM move it really needs, Treecko makes a good HM slave.
Major Battles: These are all the notable opponents that Treecko can 1v1 without overleveling, using TMs, or using items in-battle.
Brendan/May (Route 103): Torchic
Roxanne: both Geodudes
Brendan/May (Rustboro City): Lotad
Brawly: Meditite
Brendan/May (Route 110): Shroomish, Wailmer, Lombre
Wattson: Voltorb, Electrike
Tabitha (Mt. Chimney): both Numels, Poochyena
Matt (Mt. Chimney): both Carvanhas, Poochyena
Courtney (Route 119): Numel, Mightyena
Shelly (Route 119): Carvanha, Mightyena
Brendan/May (Route 119): Lombre, Shroomish, Wailmer
Brendan/May (Lilycove City): Shroomish, Wailmer
Tabitha (E): Numel
Maxie (Magma Hideout): Mightyena, Camerupt
Tabitha (R): Numel, Mightyena
Matt (Aqua Hideout): Carvanha, Mightyena, Sharpedo
Tate&Liza: Claydol, Lunatone, Solrock
Maxie and Tabitha: both Mightyenas, both Camerupts
Courtney (Seafloor Cavern): Mightyena, Camerupt
Maxie (Seafloor Cavern): Mightyena, Camerupt
Shelly (Seafloor Cavern): Mightyena, Sharpedo
Archie (Seafloor Cavern): Mightyena, Sharpedo
Wallace (Sootopolis City): Luvdisc, Sealeo, Whiscash, Seaking
Juan: Luvdisc, Whiscash, Sealeo, Crawdaunt
Wally: Delcatty, Roselia, Magneton
Sidney: Mightyena, Cacturne, Shiftry, Sharpedo, Crawdaunt
Phoebe: the Dusclops without ice beam, Sableye
Glacia: both Sealeos, Walrein
Drake: Shelgon, Kingdra
Steven: Claydol, Aggron
Wallace (Ever Grande City): Ludicolo, Whiscash, Gyarados
As you can see from here, its early availability makes it good against Roxanne, and its STAB leaf blade makes it good against most of the trainers from after Winona all the way through Glacia.
Additional Comments: While Treecko does suffer from bad defensive typing and shallow level up movepool, its early availability and the large amount of grass-weak Pokemon in the latter half of the game give Treecko plenty of opportunities to overcome these limitations. Due also to its great special attack and speed, I nominate Treecko for A tier.
 
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Treecko's one of the best mons hands down. Sure, it loses to the other two starters and isn't as impressive as some of the best options in the other games, but this is RSE where very few things are actually stupidly good. Remember how we valued availability very highly on these lists? Treecko puts his to really good use.
 
Treecko puts his to really good use.
Did you just assume its gender? Treeckos are 1/8 female, you know.
By the way, almost all the threads elsewhere on this forum that are "Mark (some number)" link to their previous thread. Since this thread is a successor to another one, you think we should also link to the previous RSE in-game tiers thread in the OP? I also think the banner at the top should be centered.
 
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Carvanha, Sharpedo
Availability:
Carvanha can be fished on Route 118. This requires either a good rod, which is at the east side of Route 118, or a super rod, which is at Mossdeep City. Both of these locations require surf to access, so Carvanha can't be caught until Norman is defeated. As more than half the game would be completed before Carvanha becomes available, availability is Carvanha's limiting factor.
Evolution: Carvanha starts evolving at level 30. As Carvanha can be level 30 when caught, this evolution should be pretty easy to achieve. Carvanha doesn't learn any important moves after level 30, so it's best evolved as soon as it reaches level 30.
Stats: Sharpedo's base 95 speed allows it to outspeed many opponents, and its STABs are powered by a decent base 95 special attack. Its base physical attack is 120, so it can use moves like strength to beat opponents with higher special defense. Both of its base defenses are 40, so it will eat up quite a few potions and revives, and it will lose the battle if it can't quickly defeat the opponent.
Typing: Due to low defensive stats, Sharpedo often gets 2HKO'd or 3HKO'd regardless of defensive typing. Offensively, water dark typing is pretty good, granting super effective STABs against several late-game opponents.
Movepool: Carvanha can quickly get a good STAB for both types, coming already knowing crunch and learning surf from the HM. While neither STAB type is physical, strength is a decent move for taking advantage of the base 120 physical attack. This moveset already contains two useful HM moves. Sharpedo learns swagger at level 43 for those of you who like swagger. If you don't, then you can teach it a third HM move, which can be rock smash, dive, or waterfall.
Major Battles: These are the notable opponents that Carvanha can 1v1 without overleveling, using TMs, or using bag items in battle.
Courtney (Route 119): Numel, Mightyena
Shelly (Route 119): Carvanha, Mightyena
Brendan/May (Route 119): Numel, Wailmer, Lombre, Slugma, Combusken, Marshtomp
Winona: Swablu, Pelipper, Swellow, Skarmory
Brendan/May (Lilycove City): Swellow, Shroomish, Numel, Wailmer, Slugma, Pelipper, Grovyle, Combusken, Marshtomp
Tabitha (E): Numel, Mightyena, Zubat, Camerupt
Maxie (Magma Hideout): Mightyena, Camerupt
Tabitha (R): Numel, Mightyena, Camerupt
Matt (Aqua Hideout): Carvanha, Mightyena, Sharpedo, Golbat
Tate&Liza: Claydol, Xatu, Lunatone, Solrock
Tabitha and Maxie: both Mightyenas, Golbat, both Camerupts
Courtney (Seafloor Cavern): Camerupt, Mightyena
Maxie (Seafloor Cavern): Mightyena, Camerupt
Shelly (Seafloor Cavern): Mightyena, Sharpedo
Archie (Seafloor Cavern): Mightyena, Sharpedo
Wallace (Sootopolis City): Luvdisc, Sealeo, Seaking
Juan: Luvdisc, Sealeo, Kingdra
Wally: Delcatty, Gardevoir
Sidney: Mightyena, Shiftry, Sharpedo, Absol
Phoebe: both Dusclopses, both Banettes, Sableye
Glacia: both Glalies, both Sealeos
Drake: Shelgon
Steven: Skarmory, Claydol, Armaldo, Aggron
Because of Carvanha's late availability, this list is quite short. Even though Carvanha can defeat many late-game opponents, it's still limited to late-game opponents.
Additional Comments: I won't deny that Carvanha is easy to evolve and has good stats, offensive typing, and movepool, because it does. However, these advantages are completely irrelevant for more than half of the game, because of Carvanha's availability. Due to the fact that it comes so late, I nominate Carvanha for C tier.
 

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