Pokemon Ruby, Sapphire, and Emerald In-Game Tier List Discussion

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Texas Cloverleaf

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Unfortunately the samples I had to work with were kinda small, your log on Brawly was only one sentence long and you didn't include logs for the May battle before Wattson. The fact that you have about five battles max before Gardevoir is certainly something to consider when deciding how negatively the Ralts/Kirlia period weighs into to Ralts's overall ranking, it's only missing the earlygame, give or take.

I absolutely share your passion for Gardevoir, it's one of my favorite pokemon and I almost always use it when I have a chance (I'm even using it in a Platinum test rn). I'm a little preoccupied with other things at the moment but if I eventually did my own Emerald run I'd definitely take Reflect though, idk if it was obvious from my other posts but I really don't like having to rely on shaky rng like Double Team to win fights.
Regarding Brawly, it didn't deserve more than the sentence it took to describe Confusion sweeping, as I imagine you'll find out when you run. Regarding Reflect, I strongly recommend Double Team. It only comes up in two fights, three if you stretch it, and Double Team specifically enables the sweep of Drake as Shelgon gives you plenty of free turns. Double Team is only shaky RNG if the opponent consistently attacks you, something that neither Shelgon nor Roxanne's Geodude do (Defense Curl etc). Regarding May, I don't generally give her any consideration in my runs, and she's more or less optional to include, only the Cycling Road fight is anything close to non-trivial.
 
Everything aside, I highly disagree on Electrike having superior availability. It is essentially dead weight until it gets Spark outside of a thunder wave here or there and as argued many times before, getting Manectric later is just far superior to getting Electrike early. Electrike being available earlier should not be considered a pro imo; if it weren’t for Manectric being available later Electrike’s performance would seriously make me consider C for it.
 
For the record, my agreement of Ralts to S was purely because of how amazing Gardevoir was, having all of CM, Psychic and Tbolt basically for free and utterly destroying Winona, Wallace, and Drake in my Ruby run (the second one in particular is where the bulk matters over Zam, since it can also sweep comfortably but it absolutely needs to avoid getting Rock Tombed on while Garde doesn't mind as much). I actually hadn't tried to beat Wattson or Flannery because I found them annoying but was planning to on my Emerald run. I do think in Kirlia's favor it has a better shot than Kadabra because of CM, but Torkoal's Body Slam should still be a bitch.

My only hesitation is due to its Slow experience group (and I guess the 4% encounter? I never really had much trouble but it's harder to get a good nature), since it means you're unlikely to have Gardevoir in time for Norman without grinding—which is annoying to do because Kirlia isn't very good in routes, from experience. Not sure how much of a penalty it should be but when I did my Zangoose run I realized how much freer I was lategame to level up all of my teammates whereas with Garde it tended to suck it up. Outside of that detail it's one of the best three mons in the game for sure.

Oh, and yea it's significantly better to get Electrike post Surf. In my Ruby run I caught a shiny one with Naive nature early so I couldn't pass it up, but it was super painful to level it up (I actually had to switch train it inside Wattson's gym, good thing I was using Geodude lol). Even after getting Shock Wave/Spark it's not that great, so the less amount of time you spend before Manectric the better. That thing is great tho, fast, strong, with T-Wave as an emergency button. B tier is fine alongside Magneton—which I've yet to use.

Sorry if my post doesn't help much, if I ever finish up my Emerald run I'll contribute more.
 

Punchshroom

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Man what happened while I was away? Anyway, here is my stance on Ralts if anyone here wants to see my nomination on it.


So I saw Roselia in D tier and that got me thinking: what does Roselia do that warrants it the same rank as fellow Grass-types such as Bellossom and Ludicolo, which can weather sweep, while being better than other Grasses like Cacnea, Lileep, and Seedot? The answer? FUKING NOTHING. This mon has been one of the worst mons I've had the displeasure of using; it's slow, paper thin frail, has bad coverage, and it has absolutely no way of augmenting its offensive presence, unlike the weather abusing Grass-types.

Here is what is so especially damning about Roselia's performance: it has no truly favorable matchups against anyone. The best matchup Roselia has is being able to Stun Spore + Leech Seed stall vs Wattson's team, and this is where Roselia peaks. Yeah, not even 20 minutes after you obtain Roselia and beat its first gym with it, it is all downhill from there. Outside of Wallace's Whiscash, pretty much every important mon Roselia faces is either an uncomfortable matchup (ex: Water-types with Ice moves or Grass-weak mons that just hit it really damn hard) or an unquestionable defeat. Like holy shit, even Cacturne's Dark-typing can give it an edge vs Tate&Liza, Phoebe, and some of Sidney's team. Roselia can barely 1v1 most things safely in my experience due to how awful its stats and weaknesses are, and the movepool isn't any better when it's chock full of disruptive moves that Roselia is far too frail to make use of; it doesn't even have the decency to learn Sleep Powder and only has the shitty Grasswhistle instead. Oh yeah, and Roselia is not available in Emerald, so you can't even fight Champion Wallace with Roselia and instead try your hand vs Steven. Yeah, good luck.

Roselia to F. Jesus christ.
 
On the topic of Grass-types: I ask that anybody else who can play Ruby try Chlorophyll Seedot, it's really out of place at E. Nuzleaf performs better than Treecko against Roxanne and route stuff due to Growth for the former and Fake Out + Strength from passable Attack for the latter. After it becomes Shiftry it does great against Tate&Liza, Wallace (watch out for confusion and Attract, obviously), and Phoebe (avoid the Ice Beam mummy) by virtue of typing alone—which makes it work better than Vileplume there. It can also get some kills against Sidney, Glacia, and even Steven as per my log. Growth + SunnyBeam can be considered too much setup but it allows you to OHKO Milotic and Walrein before they finish you and also you get free setup against Claydol unless it procs AP boosts. Its biggest problem is having low BP moves outside of SolarBeam, really.

Definitely D at the least, I argued for C because I realized too late Plume was in B but Shiftry being at E is a heresy tbh.
 
1. I know this is a minor thing but why is Lileep a tier above Anorith? Both have poor movepools, but Anorith's Metal Claw is superior to Lileep's Acid, and it gets its first STAB(Ancientpower) a whole 11 levels before Cradily. It also gets better coverage from TMs like Iron Tail, Earthquake/Dig, Brick Break, and Aerial Ace, opposed to Cradily's Giga Drain, Solarbeam(Cradily also learns no grass moves by level-up), Earthquake, and Sludge Bomb.
(It is also inferior to Oddish's evolutions if it wants to utilize SunnyBeam, since it doesn't get Chlorophyll.) Cradily has better matchups in Juan and/or Wallace, but is outclassed by every other Grass-type in Hoenn, namely Sceptile, Vileplume, and Bellossom. Armaldo at least has a niche in Fury Cutter sweeping, even if it requires a bit of setup and possibly a healing item. I'm not saying Armaldo is good, I'm wondering why it's below Cradily.
2. Why is Treecko a tier below Oddish? I know Sunnybeam is a thing but doesn't Leaf Blade come earlier and is less dependent on setup? Oddish is also a pain to train, having to rely on the unreliable Bullet Seed until you get the Giga Drain TM(Just after the 6th gym, by the way.)That means you need to use 3 TMs on it, while Sceptile can simply do without.
 

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(It is also inferior to Oddish's evolutions if it wants to utilize SunnyBeam, since it doesn't get Chlorophyll.) Cradily has better matchups in Juan and/or Wallace, but is outclassed by every other Grass-type in Hoenn, namely Sceptile, Vileplume, and Bellossom.
Reminder that this is explicitly not a valid reason to rank something lower.

Lileep is pretty noticably more useful than Anorith, even if it's still not particularly good. Access to Sludge Bomb gives it a strong enough neutral move (it's functionally about the same power as STAB ancientpower) and doesn't have awful PP. The huge bulk increase compared to Anorith also means that even an underleveled Lileep can at least slightly contribute, even if only by toxic stalling down something. Lileep manages the push to just bad rather than actively painful like Anorith forces most of the time.
 

Texas Cloverleaf

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2. Why is Treecko a tier below Oddish? I know Sunnybeam is a thing but doesn't Leaf Blade come earlier and is less dependent on setup? Oddish is also a pain to train, having to rely on the unreliable Bullet Seed until you get the Giga Drain TM(Just after the 6th gym, by the way.)That means you need to use
I would personally rate Treecko higher but essentially people strongly dislike its very poor early and mid-game. Once it hits Sceptile it takes off but you're stuck with a relatively weak and frail pokemon for the expected payoff of a starter.

When I used Oddish I found it to be terrific up until around level 27-28 and again after I evolved it to Vileplume. Oddish levels up extremely fast, so by prioritizing its training in the Emerald double battles between Slateport and Mauville I was actually able to reach level 21 and evolve mine into Gloom by the time I reached Mauville. Once it becomes Gloom it suffers few problems until the aforementioned level point, Sleep Powder is broken and more than enough to make up for its weak BP moves. And Vileplume is just great, super solid all around. Good power either with Sunnybeaming or just a tank set up with Sludge Bomb/Giga Drain/Sleep Powder as I used. Contributes to the late and end games to a somewhat comparable level as Sceptile with its added bulk and Sleep Powder letting it handle the same types of threats as Sceptile can.
 

Punchshroom

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Alternatively, if you don't want to sit through the Oddish phase, you can just grab a Gloom at the Safari Zone and all the tools you need/want (Sunny Day TM, Solarbeam TM, Leaf Stone, Giga Drain TM if you want) are pretty much right around the corner, so you have a Vileplume ready to use immediately.

I would personally rate Treecko higher but essentially people strongly dislike its very poor early and mid-game. Once it hits Sceptile it takes off but you're stuck with a relatively weak and frail pokemon for the expected payoff of a starter.
Honestly this is the same problem I have with Seedot for the most part; it wholly underperforms from Gyms 2-6, and unlike Oddish it doesn't have Powders to at least contribute vs the pre-Surf bosses. Like Nature Power is cute for hitting route stuff with different interesting attacks, but that's about all I can say about its mid-game route clearing capability.

That said, Chlorophyll SunnyBeam is quite potent for the lategame, and Shiftry boasts a better defensive typing than Vileplume for the battles that matter. I settled with a final moveset of Sunny Day/Solarbeam/Faint Attack/Giga Drain while letting X Sp.Atks replace Growth, and I have to say that Shiftry put in good work for all the same fights that Ernesto's own Shiftry did well in. It's just unfortunate that the Nuzleaf phase is kind of a dud, but I would also definitely rank it in D at least, though tbh I think Shiftry is better than Bellossom and performs about on par with Sceptile so I think C Rank is fair for Seedot as well.
 
Re: Ralts, not to open up cans of worms, but I did a couple runs here and here some months ago and was unimpressed by Ralts. I wasn't able to get the early-game performance out of it that Texas seems to have; it felt very weak. Meanwhile, after evolving it's supposed to be amazing but for me it was just.... good? I ran multiple Pokémon whose Elite Fours were as good as Ralts's when adjusting for exp. rate: Marill, Lotad, traded Sapphire Skitty (with a pretty heavy TM investment, to be fair), and other Psychic-types Spoink and Lunatone.

In fact, it felt like the sole trade-off between Ralts and Spoink was: do I want to endure Ralts/Kirlia like a millstone around my earlygame neck in exchange for free Calm Mind later on? And now that I'm asking myself that question, I kinda would take Spoink over Ralts!

Of course, it's possible I was running Ralts badly or wasn't reaching the level benchmarks I should have been for this thread.


EDIT: I was thinking about Kadabra vs. Alakazam and started running some calculations which led to a more general comparison of Psychic-types which might be interesting.
Assuming equal-ish experience, 15 IVs, 40 EVs, and an enemy Glalie that's level 50 and knows Ice Beam and Hyper Beam (but ignores type advantage/disadvantage):

Alakazam 50
Psychic: 50.9-60%
-getting hit by Ice Beam: 41.7-49.6%
-getting hit by Hyper Beam: 71.6-85%
Speed: 137

Kadabra 50
Psychic: 45.8-54.1%
-getting hit by Ice Beam: 56.2-66.9%
-getting hit by Hyper Beam: 107.1-126.7%
Speed: 122

Gardevoir 46
Psychic: 40-47%
-getting hit by Ice Beam: 34.6-41.5%
-getting hit by Hyper Beam: 56.9-67.6%
Speed: 90

Grumpig 53
Psychic: 39.3-46.4%
-getting hit by Ice Beam (ignoring Thick Fat): 25.4-30.4%
-getting hit by Hyper Beam: 40.3-47.8%
Speed: 103

Lunatone 53
Psychic: 40.6-48.3%
-getting hit by Ice Beam: 35-40%
-getting hit by Hyper Beam: (ignoring type resistance) 43.3-51.3%
Speed: 92

Compared to Alakazam, Kadabra hits about 10% weaker, has about 33% worse special bulk, and has about 50% worse physical bulk.

Put another way, a special attack that 4HKOs Alakazam will 3HKO Kadabra; a physical attack that 3HKOs Alakazam will 2HKO Kadabra.

Put yet another way, compared to a level 50 Alakazam, Kadabra would need to be at level 53 to match its special power, at about level 57 to match its speed, at about level 58 to match its special bulk, and at about level 62 to match its physical bulk.

---

As for the three other pokes, all are significantly bulkier on both sides than Kadabra/Alakazam, but also significantly weaker and slower.

The power difference between Gardevoir/Grumpic/Lunatone is very slight, within the 5 base points of sp. atk. difference between Grumpig and Lunatone.
The bulk difference is a little bigger. Grumpig's sturdy enough on both sides that attacks that 4HKO it will 3HKO Gardevoir. Lunatone is somewhat in the middle, with similar special bulk as Gardevoir, but similar physical bulk as Grumpig (slightly worse).
Grumpig is also faster than the two others.

---

What difference does this make? That would require more testing against important boss battles to determine significant benchmarks (for instance, what can Grumpig likely outspeed that Lunatone or Gardevoir can't? What outspeeds Grumpig that Kadabra or Alakazam can outspeed? Does the extra bulk of Grumpig allow survival in a key situation, or is it irrelevant?).

It also doesn't take into account differences between the Pokémon beyond stats—most significantly, in my opinion, availability differences (Kadabra/Alakazam/Gardevoir join at the beginning, Lunatone/Grumpig about a third or half of the way through the game) and learnset differences (most importantly Alakazam and Gardevoir's access to Calm Mind by level-up, both letting them use it earlier and without using up a TM; also Lunatone's access to Hypnosis for boss battles), but also stuff like type and abilities (Grumpig's Thick Fat can be helpful against Glacia, for instance, and Lunatone's Rock-typing and Levitate make it a significantly different case defensively). So I don't mean this as a definitive comparison, just an interesting thing I calculated.
 
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Finished a game with Swablu, Jigglypuff, and Staryu (E).

Swablu was surprisingly self sufficient in the early-mid game. Not good, probably not even solid, just not "do nothing" bad. STAB Secret Power with a Silk Scarf on was enough to carry it throughout all the routes. Gym 4-5 performance was of course unremarkable, and that Erratic XP growth was a pain in the ass. Still, it's not too backbreaking to get Altaria by Gym 6, which with Ice Beam + Dragon Breath can sweep Winona and sweep routes with ease. The Double Ice weakness vs Juan and a good chunk of the Elite Four is not great, but otherwise it can sponge hits well while having good move coverage. It's also Earthquake immune and can deal good damage vs Tate&Liza with Ice Beam. It's an E-Tier mon that evolves into a B-Tier in the Mid-game, so I'm inclined to push this up to C.

Jigglypuff's bad, but not F-Tier bad. Being able to evolve immediately after catching, leveling up super fast, and learning a ton of moves can give it immediate use for Gym 6 and eventually Gym 7. It was about the same thing as Kekleon, except with a little more start-up time.

Holy crap. Starmie is an S-Tier mon with a bad case of Late Game Syndrome. I feel that Staryu is stronger than its late game Slow EXP Water Brethren Chinchou by a notable margin. I've used Chinchou before, and while it was solid, it wasn't exceptionally so. Earthquake weakness is obnoxious, and its low speed stops it from sweeping well in the late game. Either Staryu deserves to go up or Chinchou needs to go down, though I'm of the opinion that Chinchou deserves the C-tier tag.

Also, what do you all think about Victory Road Golbat? With Soothe Bell and all the Friendship berries you get in Emerald, evolving it immediately into Crobat is trivial, so you get a free 6th member for the Elite Four that comes in at Lv 43-45. It won't have any EVs, but it will still outspeed every single Elite Four members and allow you to set up an Instant Confuse Ray>Toxic to help out your team. This may sound like hyperbole, but I believe late game Crobat is the strongest (non-Rayquazza) 6th team member in Emerald. Where oftentimes I would just have an HM Monkey as switch-in fodder for my 6th slot, nowadays I always go for Suicide Lead Crobat that actually has sway against the Elite Four.
 
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Lord help me... I used Duskull and it felt like the worst mon I've ever played with in Emerald. And I've played with all of the the bottom of the barrel at least once before. Sure, mons like Roselia, Plusl, Volbeat, and the like are trash, but at the very least you get little moments of awesomeness with them. Plusl can learn Thunder Wave and Spark really early to smack down annoying fliers. Roselia gets powerful status moves and Magical Leaf fairly early. And Volbeat can set up sweeps with Tail Glow + Shock Wave or just hurt really hard with STAB Signal Beam, with Confuse Ray for a little extra bonus. Duskull on the other hand comes in late, is sluggish, gets KO'd easily, and has the power of a wet napkin. Its move pool looks deep on the surface, but Ice Beam, Shadow Ball, and Psychic simply don't line up well in the late game, save for Gym 7. It also learns Confuse Ray, Curse, and Will-o-Wisp for status, but what good is status affliction when you're so goddang slow? It sucks vs Team Aqua, Gym 8, the Elite Four, and Wallace. The best use I had for it was as a suicide lead Curse user, but that's a resource drain and ultimately not very effective since the leads aren't exactly must-answer threats. Perhaps I didn't optimize Duskull correctly? I noticed that it could learn Calm Mind, so maybe I could have used it as a Calm Mind sweeper. However, I just can't see how I could have made that happen when even as Dusclops I found it to be too slow and fragile. Final verdict: Never again. Even Wigglytuff felt like a powerhouse compared to that anemic pile of ghostly garbage.
 
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Perhaps I didn't optimize Duskull correctly?
I used it on my run 3 years ago. Its moveset consisted of Confuse Ray, Will-o-Wisp and Shadow Ball before E4. The idea was to cripple harder enemies and sweep easier ones with Shadow Ball. The plan that Dusclops performed quite nicely. It is neither fast nor strong but it is reliable in tanking hits. It is also very useful in Mossdeep gym. Using Dusclops as a curse user is probably the worst thing you could have thought of, to be honest.
 
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I used it on my run 3 years ago. Its moveset consisted of Confuse Ray, Will-o-Wisp and Shadow Ball before E4. The idea was to cripple harder enemies and sweep easier ones with Shadow Ball. The plan that Dusclops performed quite nicely. It is neither fast nor strong but it is reliable in tanking hits. It is also very useful in Mossdeep gym. Using Dusclops as a curse user is probably the worst thing you could have think of, to be honest.
The problem is I didn't really find Dusclops all that bulky. It was often within 4-shot range even against Route Trainers. On top of that, it was a magnet for status effects and flinches because of its pathetic speed stat, so I had to sink potions and status healers into it just to clear routes.
 
Maybe you were underleveled or got particularly unlucky with stats. Mine was not giving a shit about hits unless it was something like Thunder from Manectric (which still only removed 1/3 of health since my Dusclops was on a higher level). Additionally, W-o-W crippled anything physical to the point that enemy attacks were tickling (I've checked my old footage and Skarmory dealt 12 HP with Steel Wing on Victory Road).

Having to frequently use potions on Pokemon is obviously a flaw but it's a common flaw for everything slow. On a plus side, Dusclops is relatively cheap to maintain since his base HP is very low and drinks from vending machine recover over half of its health in late game.
 
OK I did a replay again with Dusclops to see if my opinion would change.

Lv 46 Quiet Nature, caught at Lv 27 in Mt. Pyre

HP 102 (11 IV)
Atk 84 (23 IV)
Def 134 (18 IV)
SpA 79 (20 IV)
SpD 133 (13 IV)
Spe 40 (30 IV, lol)

This time I caught it before fighting Winona to give it more playtime. I reserved a Secret Power and Ice Beam TM just for it.

Mt. Pyre to Gym 6 (Lv 34, Ice Beam, Confuse Ray, Secret Power, Feint Attack): Off the bat, Duskull was a dumpster fire. Super underleveled and very frail to what the trainers use in Mt Pyre. In particular, there are quite a few trainer that use Night Shade, which is a hilarious counter to Duskull's godawful HP stat. After the grueling trek for the Shadow Ball TM, Duskull ended up at Lv 29.

Gym 6 : With the Ice Beam TM, Duskull could only manage 2HKOs with Ice Beam vs the trainers in the 6th gym and takes 4-6 hits before going down. Vs Winota at Lv 34, it barely misses a 2-shot Ice Beam vs Tropius and can 3 shot on Altaria. However, Tropius can 3-shot with Razor Leaf, and Altaria can Dragon Dance + two Earthquakes before Duskull can get a KO at full health, and even less if Duskull took any chip damage before. Very meh.

En Route to Gym 7 and Volcano Path(Lv 34, Psychic, Confuse Ray, Ice Beam, Secret Power) : I switched to Psychic because there are quite a few Fighting trainers. At this point Duskull can hold its own against unevolved mons, but it still takes hefty damage from evolved mons like Swellow and Manetric. Shadow Ball is also not very reliable since lots of Route trainers use Normal mons even at this point of the game, and Team Magma/Aqua have lots of Dark mons. Zubats are also extremely obnoxious with Confuse Ray + Super Effective Bite flinches, as are Mightyena with Swagger.

Gym 7 (Lv 38): Finally, Dusclops can One-shot some trainers. The Kadabras, Ralts, and Natu lines all go down without a hitch. The Girafarig line is annoying, though. Vs Tate & Liza, Shadow Ball can 2-hit the Xatu, although the Xatu+Claydol are more likely to get the KO first on Turn 2, so it's pivotal to have another mon that can double team the Xatu on the first turn (I had Slaking). Dusclops can also 2-shot Lunatone and 3-shot Solrock. Dusclops can only tank four Earthquakes from Claydol, however, and all mons move before Dusclops, so it's very likely that it gets KO'd before it can get in two attacks. A Xatu start with Confuse Ray or Hypnosis could also be a death sentence. Decent, but mixed results.

En Route to Gym 8, Maxie Final, and Archie Final (Lv 39): Dusclops is not great vs Maxie. The Golbat and Crobat eat it alive with Confuse Ray + Bite, and while the Mightyenas can't deal any damage, they are very annoying with Swagger. The Camerupts can be dangerous if they ever decide to use Rock Slide or Earthquake, although Maxie enjoys using Amnesia for whatever bizarre reason, so there's that. Vs Archie Crobat is a threat, although the rest of his team can only Confuse harass Dusclops. Outside of rain, the Route trainers aren't much but with rain they can threaten to 3-5 hit Dusclops, so it takes quite a few potions to get through after the Archie match.

Gym 8 (Lv 41, Psychic, Shadow Ball, Confuse Ray, Will-o-Wisp): Dusclops is not a fan of Lovedisc's speedy confusion, and thank goodness my Dusclops was female because I'm sure the Attract would have made this match unwinnable. Otherwise, Dusclops can 2-hit with Shadow Ball. It can take down Sealeo fairly easily as well with 3 hits, although if it took any chip damage Sealeo could get the KO first. Kingdra is a big no since it can Double Team + Rest right in Dusclop's face without much worry, and Whiscash in Rain can KO Dusclops faster than Dusclops can do the same. Overall poor

En Route to the Elite Four (Lv 43): Gardevoir goes down with 2 Shadow Balls. However, Gardevoir can 3-hit with Psychic, and if it gets the Double Team ball rolling, it can take down Dusclops first. Roselia also goes down in two hits, but Toxic+Leech Seed can hose it. Delcatty is annoying, and Magneton is a losing matchup. I didn't have Ice Beam for Altaria, but I imagine Dusclops could have 2-hit Altaria as Altaria could only deal a quarter damage with Dragon Breath. Overall, Victory Road is a mixed bag, though generally favorable for Dusclops. I didn't have Psychic in my last playthrough, and I think Psychic+Ghost coverage is better for this place than Ghost+Ice. I can't say that Will-o-Wisp has done much of anything, however. I used it to decent effect vs a Slaking in the end, but that's it. Otherwise, it wasn't much help.

Vs. Sydney (Lv 46): No.

Vs. Phoebe: Phoebe has higher levels and potion spamming in her favor. The best Dusclops managed to do was KO the first one after a Curse, but that's really it. Everything else tore Dusclops apart.

Vs. Glacia: The first Sealeo goes down without effort. However, the two Glalies hurt hard with Crunch and Shadow Ball, as does the Walrein with Ice Beam and Surf.

Vs. Drake (Lv 48, Ice Beam, Shadow Ball, Confuse Ray, Will-o-Wisp): Bulk is irrelevant here. Drake's mons easily 2-3 shot Dusclops, and Dusclops can only get 3-shots even to mons double weak to Ice.

Vs. Champion: At this point, Dusclops is relegated to Switch-in fodder. Dusclops just can barely tickle anything, and it goes down in 2-3 hits against everything else. A high Def and SpD stat mean very little when you're fighting mons ten levels over what you have.

Overall: OK, maybe Duskull isn't the worst mon I've used, but it's still freakin awful. Its bulk is supposed to be its strong suit, and vs Route Trainers you do notice it. However, vs Major battles, all that amounts to is getting KO'd in three turns rather than in two. And what can Duskull do in that extra turn where it's alive? Not very much at all. Confuse Ray is good, but inconsistent. Sometimes it saves your whole match, and sometimes it ends in 2 turns without having done anything. Then there's Will-o-Wisp. Not only does it come very late, it also doesn't have very much impact at all. Special attacks are more common than Physical ones later on, and most mons have a good split of physical and special moves where they're not entirely out of a match for getting their Attack stat hosed. On top of all this, Duskull is a TM Hog, is really weak at base form, and is super vulnerable to status effects. The two highlights are its passable (though not great) match-up vs. Tate & Liza and being a competent Psychic+Shadow Ball user, but that's the extent of it. Is Duskull the worst mon available in Gen 3? No. Do I still think Duskull deserves to be F-Tier? Yeah.
 
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Texas Cloverleaf

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That experience tracks well to my historical recollection of Dusclops. That said, shinquickman can you give Sidney another run, his movesets are pretty trash and you should be able to contribute with clops more than it would appear.
 
Aye, the whole report seems to pretty nicely summarize Dusclops - it can take a selected group of stronger Pokemon but struggles with a lot as well. It honestly seems to fit perfectly in E tier from what I have read in your nicely written post. Whenever I think of the bottom tier, Pokemon like Luvdisc or Volbeat come to mind - the ones that can't even take half enemies Dusclops can and the ones who "outright lose a lot of 1v1 matchups at like levels unless they are assisted with significant item support".

Also, this is my Dusclops in Hall of Fame (49lv, Quiet):
HP 116 (22 IV)
Atk 89 (18 IV)
Def 145 (16 IV)
SpA 72 (7 IV)
SpD 167 (30 IV)
Spe 42 (21 IV)
The difference in bulk between yours and mine is pretty big so it probably explains our different experience with the Pokemon.
 
I've been doing a playthrough with Torchic, Shroomish, and Carvahna. I wanted to do a quick and dirty testing with them and I'm just past Winona.

Shroomish definitely feels the closest of the the three to amazing, though it does have some slight issues in the Shroomish phase, though the good moves patch it up some. As a Breloom, it OHKOs darn near everything with Headbutt and is never completely useless in any gym. Nothing really threatens Breloom either: Bulk Up use kinda stomps the Flying gym and it can do a small bit of damage for Flannery. We'll see how endgame goes.

Carvahna feels like a B. Getting one is annoying but the Water routes you can level on fine, and both STABS do their job with a good performance on Winona, not much to say here, though the bulk leaves something to be desired.

Onto the reason I made this post, Torchic. I'm not quite convinced this is an A tier much at all. While never truly bad, I also don't feel like it's a standout mon. Wattson and Norman are I feel the only matchups where it does anything truly all that notable and even then sweeps are unlikely. It's just been a festival of meh and I don't expect it to get much better at endgame. It sweeps fine on routes but in bosses it's only been okay.
 
Onto the reason I made this post, Torchic. I'm not quite convinced this is an A tier much at all. While never truly bad, I also don't feel like it's a standout mon. Wattson and Norman are I feel the only matchups where it does anything truly all that notable and even then sweeps are unlikely. It's just been a festival of meh and I don't expect it to get much better at endgame. It sweeps fine on routes but in bosses it's only been okay.
Combusken should be able to solo Flannery with bulk up, double kick, and optionally dig, especially because it resists overheat and is immune to burns. What happened when you tried to use Combusken against Flannery?
 
Combusken should be able to solo Flannery with bulk up, double kick, and optionally dig, especially because it resists overheat and is immune to burns. What happened when you tried to use Combusken against Flannery?
This:
Combusken (31): +1 Double Kick OHKOs fodder and 2HKOs Camerupt. Combusken will never get past Torkoal due to the latter’s titanic Defense. Watch out for Magnitude.

Not using Dig, sorry.
 
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