Pokemon Scarlet & Violet - 18th Nov 2022! **OFFICIAL INFO ONLY**

[mertyville]

I criticized the games only by the release date prior. I think its now a good time to talk about designs.

Obviously its a no brainer with each generation the starters looking like "fakemon" to some. The designs get more and more questionable for my taste with the heads of the Pokemon getting bigger and bigger and more cartoony as times come. But usually the final forms of at least 1 starter redeems that.

What I am afraid of is the typical Game Freak humanizing (literal sense) the starters like making a cat turn into a wrestler, an owl into an archer, a frog into a ninja, monkey with sticks becoming a drummer. Like the old starters were great since you could put your personality on them. Now all Scorbunny become soccer players. All Fennekin become witches. And as I allured too, its worst for the Fire Starter which already still have the Fire/Fighting meme surrounding them. So with each new generation, there is that fear it will be a fire boxer etc.

Then there are the player characters themselves. And to me they look the most bland of all main character designs we got so far. Not only the outfit mind you, which custimization could fix. As much as I dislike SwSh, at least Gloria had a stellar design.

Btw, why do they still bother making completely new starters anyways? After Legends Arceus, I think it would be better introducing less new Pokemon and maybe reuse old Pokemon as starters for a new region. Perhaps giving them a new evolution.
Looking back at it, XY really didn't need new starters. Since the Kanto Starters got Megas, they could have been just used instead. Well, whatever.

 

[ZettaiRyouiki]

Btw, why do they still bother making completely new starters anyways? After Legends Arceus, I think it would be better introducing less new Pokemon and maybe reuse old Pokemon as starters for a new region. Perhaps giving them a new evolution.
Looking back at it, XY really didn't need new starters. Since the Kanto Starters got Megas, they could have been just used instead. Well, whatever.

1. That sounds insanely boring and hype-killing.
2. Less money for them, as starters sell.
3. People would rightfully complain about Kanto pandering if we got the Kanto starters in Kalos.

 

[Worldie]

What I am afraid of is the typical Game Freak humanizing (literal sense) the starters like making a cat turn into a wrestler, an owl into an archer, a frog into a ninja, monkey with sticks becoming a drummer. Like the old starters were great since you could put your personality on them. Now all Scorbunny become soccer players. All Fennekin become witches. And as I allured too, its worst for the Fire Starter which already still have the Fire/Fighting meme surrounding them. So with each new generation, there is that fear it will be a fire boxer etc.

Btw, why do they still bother making completely new starters anyways? After Legends Arceus, I think it would be better introducing less new Pokemon and maybe reuse old Pokemon as starters for a new region. Perhaps giving them a new evolution.
Looking back at it, XY really didn't need new starters. Since the Kanto Starters got Megas, they could have been just used instead. Well, whatever.

These 2 statements make me fear you haven't quite understood what the point of the starters is.

The starters are one of if not the most important part of what sells the new game to kids.
They are purposely designed as cute and revealed first because they need to create that "mooom I can't wait to have my pet grass cat" moment to get them to buy it.
They're also usually designed as evolving into humanized forms because they want them to be "familiar" and relatable. It's easier to develop a pseudo-affection toward something that resembles a human, than toward an arbitrary piece of animated scenery.

Arceus is the only new game (aka, not a remake) that has featured reused starters (and also notably the only time they officially revealed the final forms before the release iirc, but feel free to correct me), but Arceus could get away with it because its main appeal wasn't the Pokemon per se but rather the new type of gameplay and setting and it was clearly mainly targetted at a different audience than the main series (both evident from higher difficulty, mostly lack of "social interaction with pokemon" aka camp feature, and darker plotline/dialogues).

However, they have definitely "calmed down" with the amount of new pokemon introduced per generation, possibly because they have realized the problem of constantly introducing new pokemon. After all, Dexit happened for a reason.
They have been rather doubling on regional forms, because they create pseudo new pokemon, but while still keeping most of the assets of their original forms thus greatly reducing both the design and actual coding work required.

But absolutely no way they'd ever stop making new starters. It'd be like shooting themselves in the stomach.

 

[Sirya]

Crocodile in Spanish is "cocodrilo", because collective dyslexia I guess. So, that is an overreach. Horses, not zebras.

There are several cases of words that got changed becaues of misspelling. "Murciélago" was originally "murciégalo", a combination of the latin mus-muris (ratón/mouse) and caecus (ciego/blind). People started to say murciélago instead of murciégalo, and no one says murciégalo anymore.

 

[RocketSurgery]

Arceus is the only new game (aka, not a remake) that has featured reused starters (and also notably the only time they officially revealed the final forms before the release iirc, but feel free to correct me)

They didn't really reveal the PLA final forms before release, just the silhouettes and a bit of the evolution screen that didn't show much detail. Sun and Moon at least did officially reveal the starters before release---before any stats or types had been datamined, even, as I remember the trailer that revealed that Decidueye was grass/ghost, which upended my original plans for my team. (The images might have been datamined from the demo at that point, but the rest had all been scrubbed).

 

[ScraftyIsTheBest]

Arceus is the only new game (aka, not a remake) that has featured reused starters (and also notably the only time they officially revealed the final forms before the release iirc, but feel free to correct me), but Arceus could get away with it because its main appeal wasn't the Pokemon per se but rather the new type of gameplay and setting and it was clearly mainly targetted at a different audience than the main series (both evident from higher difficulty, mostly lack of "social interaction with pokemon" aka camp feature, and darker plotline/dialogues).

Not just that, but the other reason PLA was able to get away with reusing old starters as its trio and just giving them regional forms is because Hisui...isn't exactly a new region per se. Like new starters are associated with new regions and a new roster of mons, so games that debut an all new region like Sinnoh, Unova, Kalos, Alola, Galar, etc. bring a new trio with them to market a brand new region with a brand new group of Pokemon to bring on the hype for people to explore an all new region to meet all new Pokemon. If Kalos, Alola, or Galar didn't introduce new starters in their debut games then there's not just less incentive for the kids to get those cute new starters, it would create even less incentive for players already invested in the series to buy the new games. If XY for example just used the Kanto starters as its trio, most older players would scratch their heads and be like "Why bother?" when they're going to have as their partner a Pokemon who they've already used previously. Chespin, Fennekin, and Froakie bring the appeal as a trio of new mons whom players can pick as their partner, and the experience of using and befriending Chesnaught, Delphox, or Greninja would be very, very different from say, befriending and using Venusaur, Charizard, or Blastoise, hence why a new region would bring with it a new trio of starters (that's also putting aside the fact that I'm personally of the opinion that Chesnaught, Delphox, and Greninja are way more fun and interesting to use than the Kanto starters in the first place). Alola or Galar wouldn't be as enticing to get into likewise if we didn't get to meet new starter mons to become peoples' main friend and partner in their journeys through these new regions they haven't experienced.

Hisui while somewhat treated distinctly from modern Sinnoh is still more or less Sinnoh and aside from what you said, PLA's schtick aside from the new gameplay was that it was a Sinnoh "pre-make", and thus mostly just used Sinnoh mons as its roster, while everything "new" that was added to it was either a regional form, a new evolution to an older Pokemon, or a new member to an old legendary group (aka Enamorus). It was not a new generation of mons at all, and thus a new trio of starters didn't really need to be introduced. It was clearly also designed for Sinnoh nostalgics to have a new experience in a region that they experience in their younger years, so it was pulling on those strings as well. Legends: Arceus is closer in niche to FRLG, HGSS, and ORAS in that regard in that it's a revisit of a previously existing region, and thus not one that is supposed to be a new region for new people to experience. There was no need to build hype on a new set of Pokemon since it's closer to past remakes than it is to an all new game.

-----------------

Anyway, on to another topic regarding starters, one thing that strikes as curious is if the final forms will have a universal theme around their designs. Ever since Gen 4, the final forms of the starter trios have had a sort of "theme" going for them in terms of designs:

Sinnoh: Mythological figures (World Turtle, Sun Wukong, Poseidon)
Unova: Historical Warriors from different Nations (France, China, Japan as respective nations)
Kalos: RPG Classes (Warrior, Mage, Rogue)
Alola: Entertainment/Stage Performers (archer, heel wrestler, songstress)
Galar: UK Cultural Icons (British rock music, football, James Bond/espionage movies)
Hisui: Feudal Japan Warriors/Themes (Ronin, Hyakki Yagyo (Parade of 100 Demons), Samurai)

It makes me wonder in terms of the Gen 9 trio if their final forms will have a little schtick or theming behind their designs when you look at all three of them together. It's been a prevailing theme for a long time with every starter trio since Sinnoh itself, so I wonder if a design theme will be prevalent with this trio when their final forms are shown off. It'll be interesting to see.

 

[Suspicious Derivative]

To me, what kinda sucks about Scarlet and Violet's announcement isn't the fact that it's being released this year, but the fact that it got announced so soon after PLA came out.

I completely agree with this and everything else you wrote. The early announcement is almost as bad as the early release date, if not just as bad. I touched upon this a little in my first post in this thread, but the fact that they decided to do their best to overshadow L:A just a month after it was released feels like a really bad move. It would have made a lot more sense if they had revealed these games at a later point. Other than that I don’t know what else to say, you summed up all of my thoughts pretty well.

... Oda, if you're having problems drawing female characters that don't look like Nami and Robin, you could probably just commission another Shonen Jump artist to draw a unique female character for you...

But anyway, that is interesting that Oda also saw a connection between Spain and the colors of Scarlet and Violet. Maybe he too did research and saw the older flag?

Don’t know how much you have read/seen of One Piece, but Oda has recently been creating a lot of female characters with very unique designs. The most notable are most of the women introduced in the Whole Cake Island arc.

And yeah, maybe he did some research and saw the connection too. One Piece is full of references to almost everything so it wouldn’t surprise me at all.

While we're at it, I want to post my prediction for the release date: November 18th. If I’m wrong, I will change my avatar to Autumn Blaze and keep it for 33 days. Or I might do that even if I’m right.

I thought about one thing regarding mythical Pokémon. Zarude is the only one for Gen 8 so far. With Gen 9 coming soon, will it also be the last one for Gen 8? It sure looks so. It would be strange if they first announced new games and then announced a new mythical for the older games.

I wonder if we will be able to use the new Pokémon and forms introduced in L:A in S/V? I really hope so. I know there was a pic of a Hisuian Zoroark shown somewhere in the games, I hope the other ones will be useable as well. I would love to use all of these new Pokémon forms in a game which has the regular battle system instead of a different one which is ruined by idiotic new mechanics.

Don’t think I’ll post any more in this thread for the time being, so here’s to repeating myself one final time with a short summary of my thoughts so far:
- Looking forward to the games, but I am very unhappy about the release date and the announcement date
- I will likely pick Sprigatito as my starter. My rank is: Green Unikitty > Ducklett’s cousin > Baby Crocomire (all are good though)
- Leaning more towards getting Scarlet at the moment, but I’ll wait and see if the cover legends will change my mind

 

[DrPumpkinz]

Btw, why do they still bother making completely new starters anyways? After Legends Arceus, I think it would be better introducing less new Pokemon and maybe reuse old Pokemon as starters for a new region. Perhaps giving them a new evolution.

I tried doing that in a fan game I've been planning. Turns out it's way harder than you'd think, at least if you want to stick with Grass/Fire/Water. There are almost no good choices for Fire.

Don't take this as an opportunity to derail conversation with a list of every potential choice, PikachuNumbers. Just take my word for it, or do it but don't share it.

 

[earl]

I don't even feel like the starters heads are getting bigger this time around, Sprigatito and Quaxly seem on par with the modern starter big-headedness while Fuecoco doesn't even have a clarified head. He's just body, eyes, and mouth

 

[DreamPrince]

them to buy it.
They're also usually designed as evolving into humanized forms because they want them to be "familiar" and relatable. It's easier to develop a pseudo-affection toward something that resembles a human, than

Are you sure about the humanoid thing equal popular? There are a lot of humanoid Pokémon that don’t get lot of like, Mr. Mime and Jynx. I remember showing Jynx to my family, and they all called it hideous, which is unfortunate because I think Jynx looks very pretty, or at least more than Gardevoir.

 

[Worldie]

Are you sure about the humanoid thing equal popular? There are a lot of humanoid Pokémon that don’t get lot of like, Mr. Mime and Jynx. I remember showing Jynx to my family, and they all called it hideous, which is unfortunate because I think Jynx looks very pretty, or at least more than Gardevoir.

It's not really a matter of "popularity" but rather a factor of attachment. It's just easier to develop attachment to a humanoid figure than to a rock or a koala, expecially when it grows from "just a cute animal" to a humanized version of that cute animal.

That doesn't mean that it's not possible to make a non-human popular starter (hello Charizard) but if you have to put a lot of effort on a design that is meant to attract people, you'll go with what's the easier to get results with, rather than take a bet.

 

[DrPumpkinz]

It's not really a matter of "popularity" but rather a factor of attachment. It's just easier to develop attachment to a humanoid figure than to a rock or a koala, expecially when it grows from "just a cute animal" to a humanized version of that cute animal.

That doesn't mean that it's not possible to make a non-human popular starter (hello Charizard) but if you have to put a lot of effort on a design that is meant to attract people, you'll go with what's the easier to get results with, rather than take a bet.

Repulsion is almost literally the opposite of attachment (more accurately attraction). One brings you closer to something, and the other pushes you away from something.

If people are repulsed by mons like Mr. Mime or Cinderace, then they're not attached to them. Popularity has nothing to do with it.

 

[Cobalt Empoleon]

Starter Pokemon occupy a weird space in terms of 'attachment', because there are different styles of attachment depending on the design philosophy for a given species.

Starter Pokemon used to be treated mainly as pets that you pitted against other people's pets, which had some obvious (and oft-memed) unfortunate implications, but created a nice symbiotic relationship, where you took care of your Pokemon by instructing them in battle and healing them when they got hurt and they in turn took care of you by protecting you from wild Pokemon. When your Pokemon got stronger and evolved, that was a sign that you'd both succeeded in your roles as caretaker.

Newer releases treat starter Pokemon more as partners on an adventure, or even guardian-like figures. The vibe that a Pokemon like Decidueye gives off is more like 'this is my super strong buddy who loves fighting' rather than 'this is my large pet owl'. As time has gone on, the games have also assigned more intelligence, agency, and emotion to Pokemon, which serves to undercut the idea that they're enslaved creatures who develop a begrudging appreciation for the amenities you can offer them as a human.

The 'Pokemon as pets' style of attachment has universal appeal regardless of age, but I think the players who get the most out of having a starter Pokemon that's their big strong pal tend to skew younger. Inteleon in Shield felt more like my friendly coworker once it evolved, like we were on good terms and we worked well together as a team, but I wasn't super attached to it haha.

I do believe that having more humanoid final evos in a game like PLA works in its favour and serves its themes well, though. When people are unsure if they can even trust Pokemon to begin with, a wild final evo like Alakazam or Roserade seems terrifying precisely because of its humanoid appearance (what is it thinking? what is it capable of?) but evolving your own Pokemon after bonding with it as a little puppy or pink blob or whatever makes its more human final form feel like a culmination of your relationship and an expression of your familiarity with each other.

 

[Scorpio]

Anyway, on to another topic regarding starters, one thing that strikes as curious is if the final forms will have a universal theme around their designs. Ever since Gen 4, the final forms of the starter trios have had a sort of "theme" going for them in terms of designs:

Sinnoh: Mythological figures (World Turtle, Sun Wukong, Poseidon)
Unova: Historical Warriors from different Nations (France, China, Japan as respective nations)
Kalos: RPG Classes (Warrior, Mage, Rogue)
Alola: Entertainment/Stage Performers (archer, heel wrestler, songstress)
Galar: UK Cultural Icons (British rock music, football, James Bond/espionage movies)
Hisui: Feudal Japan Warriors/Themes (Ronin, Hyakki Yagyo (Parade of 100 Demons), Samurai)

It makes me wonder in terms of the Gen 9 trio if their final forms will have a little schtick or theming behind their designs when you look at all three of them together. It's been a prevailing theme for a long time with every starter trio since Sinnoh itself, so I wonder if a design theme will be prevalent with this trio when their final forms are shown off. It'll be interesting to see.

Just as a note, the Gen 1 starters also had a sort of theme to them, the base forms being based on common pets (frogs, lizards, and turtles).

Also, there is a 5000% chance Hawlucha is going to be in SV.

 

[Yung Dramps]

Also, there is a 5000% chance Hawlucha is going to be in SV

"Lucha libre's roots in Mexico date back to the middle of the 19th century"

You have fallen for one of the classic blunders

 

[Indignantpuppy]

Long shot bet is that all three starters end up as their starter type and dragon. The alligator becomes more dragony, a duck can also be called a drake, and having dragons be catlike in fiction is reasonably popular.

It is weird to have so many releases so close to each other relatively speaking I feel like there was definitely longer gaps between Pokemon games previously.

 

[Worldie]

Also, there is a 5000% chance Hawlucha is going to be in SV.

Remember when Solrock and Lunatone were available in Sun/Moon?
(I know you could get them by bank, but ... )

It is weird to have so many releases so close to each other relatively speaking I feel like there was definitely longer gaps between Pokemon games previously.

It's not that there was a longer gap, rather until the Switch launch, the spinoffs were few and far between, and the few that there have been during the 3ds era were mainly mobile games iirc.

 

[flyinfilipino]

One thing that somewhat bothers me is that Sprigatito's name is a portmanteau of an English word and a Spanish word, but Fuecoco's is a combination of two Spanish words (and Quaxly is something else). Does this mildly bother anyone else?

 

[ScraftyIsTheBest]

One thing that somewhat bothers me is that Sprigatito's name is a portmanteau of an English word and a Spanish word, but Fuecoco's is a combination of two Spanish words (and Quaxly is something else). Does this mildly bother anyone else?

To me the big dissonance is that Quaxly doesn't have even a shred of discernible Spanish in its name while the other two do. Like Sprigatito clearly has "gatito" in it, which is little cat, and Fuecoco is fuego (fire) and cocodrilo (crocodile) combined but there is no discernible Spanish word whatsoever in Quaxly's name at all.

It kinda bothers me a little that for the Spanish region the localization team went all in on incorporating Spanish into two of the starters' names but then there's that one where they didn't even bother to incorporate any Spanish into the name at all despite doing so for the other two, which creates a big dissonance in Quaxly's name compared to Sprigatito and Fuecoco.

 

[Worldie]

One thing that somewhat bothers me is that Sprigatito's name is a portmanteau of an English word and a Spanish word, but Fuecoco's is a combination of two Spanish words (and Quaxly is something else). Does this mildly bother anyone else?

To me the big dissonance is that Quaxly doesn't have even a shred of discernible Spanish in its name while the other two do. Like Sprigatito clearly has "gatito" in it, which is little cat, and Fuecoco is fuego (fire) and cocodrilo (crocodile) combined but there is no discernible Spanish word whatsoever in Quaxly's name at all.

It kinda bothers me a little that for the Spanish region the localization team went all in on incorporating Spanish into two of the starters' names but then there's that one where they didn't even bother to incorporate any Spanish into the name at all despite doing so for the other two, which creates a big dissonance in Quaxly's name compared to Sprigatito and Fuecoco.

Actually it's a Galaxybrain thinking.

There's a total of 3 words amongst 3 starters, but at same time, one has 2, one has 1, one has 0, making them at same time an average of 1 word each, and all of them having a different amount.

99Head thinking obviously

 

[Cobalt Empoleon]

All the names sound cute and fitting.
Maybe Quaxly's evos incorporate Spanish into their names.
Maybe they don't.
I really don't think it matters.

The last thing I want is for Pokemon names to start feeling like they're all following a paint-by-numbers formula. Some are obvious portmanteaux; some are neat and complex puns; some just sound cutesy or onomatopoeic; some are just vibes. All options are good. Tbh I think Quaxly sounds the best as a name on its own, even though I'm definitely not picking it as my starter.

Also literally zero of the base form starter Pokemon in Kalos have French in their names unless you really stretch to make non-obvious connections.

 

[Pikachu315111]

Don’t know how much you have read/seen of One Piece, but Oda has recently been creating a lot of female characters with very unique designs. The most notable are most of the women introduced in the Whole Cake Island arc.

I listen to a manga podcast so I know what's generally happening in the popular series/Shonen Jump, but I haven't really seen much. From what I recall it was a popular joke that Oda kept on reusing Nami's and Robin's designs with slight modifications, though aside from Boa Hancock these are two other instances of Nami & Robin look-alikes. Though I do know Oda can draw other girls, like there's Vivi.

I wonder if we will be able to use the new Pokémon and forms introduced in L:A in S/V? I really hope so. I know there was a pic of a Hisuian Zoroark shown somewhere in the games, I hope the other ones will be useable as well. I would love to use all of these new Pokémon forms in a game which has the regular battle system instead of a different one which is ruined by idiotic new mechanics.

Being this is the second core game with the Limited Dex, I think they'd probably not only want to allow the Hisuian forms to be transferred up but also include the Pokemon who were never added to SwSh (and maybe a healthy portion of Galar Pokemon & Galarian forms). That way we have all Pokemon having been in a game with a Limited Dex and starting Gen X, assuming they don't suddenly switch back to having the National Dex, they can start having some Pokemon be absent for at most two generations so the Dex team aren't forced to pick certain group of Pokemon.

I tried doing that in a fan game I've been planning. Turns out it's way harder than you'd think, at least if you want to stick with Grass/Fire/Water. There are almost no good choices for Fire.

Don't take this as an opportunity to derail conversation with a list of every potential choice, PikachuNumbers. Just take my word for it, or do it but don't share it.

Do you mean just the Fire Starters or picking any Fire-type to be a Starter? Cause eitherway I don't need to list them, you're just not trying hard enough.

It's not really a matter of "popularity" but rather a factor of attachment. It's just easier to develop attachment to a humanoid figure than to a rock or a koala, expecially when it grows from "just a cute animal" to a humanized version of that cute animal.

That doesn't mean that it's not possible to make a non-human popular starter (hello Charizard) but if you have to put a lot of effort on a design that is meant to attract people, you'll go with what's the easier to get results with, rather than take a bet.

I'm not sure how much of that is true, and I don't think it's the reason why recent batch of Starters' final evos have been humanoid.

Don't have any proof of this myself, but I feel like they've been more humanoid is more for the artist's sake. The Starters are no longer just animals/mythical creatures, going from a cute child to an adult form. Now the final Starters have an added theme of representing something. Kalos were the classic RPG trio of warrior, mage & rouge; Alola was entertainers such as an archer/sharpshooter, wrestler, and singer; Galar was UK pop culture icons of a rock drummer (think The Beatle's Ringo Starr), soccer player, and gadget spy (James Bond). All of these things are human occupations, meaning there's already an idea how this would work on a bipedal form, especially one that is close to a human. And so to have the Starters' final evos be these representations it's just easier to make them humanoid then try to figure out how a big animal would fit into the job.

To me the big dissonance is that Quaxly doesn't have even a shred of discernible Spanish in its name while the other two do.

Quaxly > Quax ly > Qua x ly > Aqua Quack Duckling > "Agua" is the Spanish word for water.

 

[Cobalt Empoleon]

Quaxly > Quax ly > Qua x ly > Aqua Quack Duckling > "Agua" is the Spanish word for water.

Again, I think we're overthinking and overstretching this for the sake of forcing a pattern, like it's not called Guackling lmao.

Honestly I'm not sure it's any more complicated than 'quacks + generic cutesy diminuitive suffix' with the 'cks' replaced with an 'x' for readability/fluency (Quaxly >>> Quacksly)

 

[JES]

Is it just me, or have the past 3 years gone by really quickly? I still haven't picked up a copy of any of the Gen 8 games (or more importantly, a Switch for that matter. Guess I just don't have as much time for games as I used to, hah! I barely have enough time for a few battles on Showdown every couple of days during work breaks!), and now they are already releasing a new generation!

But it turns out that three years between generations is the average, with Gen 4 lasting for 4 years. Here's to hoping that Gen 8 has better quality content-wise than the last generation (even if it does mean lasting as long as Gen 4)!

 

[Count Bleck]

Is it just me, or have the past 3 years gone by really quickly? I still haven't picked up a copy of any of the Gen 8 games (or more importantly, a Switch for that matter. Guess I just don't have as much time for games as I used to, hah! I barely have enough time for a few battles on Showdown every couple of days during work breaks!), and now they are already releasing a new generation!

But it turns out that three years between generations is the average, with Gen 4 lasting for 4 years. Here's to hoping that Gen 8 has better quality content-wise than the last generation (even if it does mean lasting as long as Gen 4)!

Covid-19 has really done a number on everyones perception of time