Pokemon Scarlet & Violet - 18th Nov 2022! **OFFICIAL INFO ONLY**

Pikachu315111

Ranting & Raving!
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ArchaeusXolotl:
Hello, welcome to Smogon. Glad to see new faces (or rather Avatars) and that you're ready to jump in and join in on the conversation. However, please, as a curtesy so we don't unnecessarily expand the post (& thus page) count, if you made a post but then have some more to say please edit your previous post instead of making another one, especially if what you have to add is only a few sentences. Thank you. :blobthumbsup:

Kinda missed my point there, I'm not necessarily saying that using the auto battle itself will be an evo method nor that the PLA methods will be here. Just saying that there may be a new evo method that in one way or another would require constantly battling (The example i used was exactly that graveler dropped a new item to evolve scyther and that battling graveler automatically en masse would not be an evo method but would speed up the process) that auto battles would simply make easier
Ah, I see. Well, one thing concerning that is if Pokemon can drop items in SV. As up till now only Legends: Arcues did it because of its crafting system, the Core Series required you having a Pokemon use a stealing move to grab an item if the Pokemon even if it had one. Thing is in LA you were making things like more Poke Ball and Potions as you were constantly catching and battling in addition to handy stunning items like flash bangs and smoke bombs. But that's not the case in the core series so we probably won't be doing that. Then again, SV is an open world and crafting is a general part of those games, SwSh sort of had it via food ingrediants to make Curry with, so they could do a similar thing involving Arven. Also I guess they don't need to make item drops common as they did in L:A, they could just make them a 10%, 5%, 1% bonus occurrence. Finally, if your goal is to try passively grind for a certain item, I don't se why they wouldn't let you teach a thieving move to your Pokemon and sending it out in the wild. "Okay Sneasel, this is where Magby spawn and there's no Magmars around, use Thief on as many as you have to until you get the Magmarizer".
 
I think something people who believe in the Chinese Zodiac theory need to realize is that the Chinese Zodiac also happens to have Popular Animals (crazy I know).
Like Cinderace is based on a Rabbit, which is a pretty popular animal. If the Zodiac animals were extremely obscure animals, Cyndaquil being the “Fire Mouse Pokemon” (and ignoring how Typhlosion is the Volcano Pokemon and how Charmander is a Salamander not a Dragon), or Fennekin being based on the same Family as Dogs, these wouldn’t be as big of a problem for the theory.
That is until Gen 9 where Feucoco is undeniably not part of the Zodiac and likely means all the Fire starters are based on popular animals (or Brazilian Football teams).
Even if Fuecoco ends up losing its legs, which imo is actually fair game because it looks like a Pepper, it just makes the theory inconsistent.
Like you already have Gen 3/4/5/7/8 that fit fine and for each member, Gen 1 only fitting in the final stage, Gen 2 only fitting because of Pokemon Category+only for first stage and Asian Languages, Gen 6 only fitting because it’s “close enough”, and now Gen 9 where only the last Pokemon fits but only if you think Peppers are Snakes.

There are also issues like Marketing, Gen 2 Beta, entire lines being designed by different people, or how GameFreak didn’t know about the Mew/Ditto theory which was more plausable.

Anyways, going back to Feucoco, a thing I heard that was interesting is that Brazilian Witch Folklore (yes there is more Brazil).
In Brazilian Folklore, there is an Blonde Alligator Witch named Cuca who kidnaps children. Feucoco actually has blonde hair despite being a reptile. I think that Feucoco will be part Ghost Pepper and part Cuca.
If I could draw, I would draw out what I think Feucoco3 would look like, but instead try to imagine a Pepper with Gator snout, blonde hair that forms a witch hat, and standing in a cauldron. Said cauldron also has Stubby legs like Feucoco has currently.
If the reason for the Chinese Zodiac pattern was that the Chinese Zodiac contains popular animals, then water starters and grass starters would fit exactly as much. The fact that they don't proves that logic is hogwash. There are a LOT of popular animals and a LOT of pokemon, but only a small number of fire starters and Chinese Zodiac animals.

The issues that people complain about for the theory are demonstrated by pointing out how, IF the theory was correct, how ridiculous the idea would be of Game Freak telling their artists to scrap their designs because of the issues mentioned would be.

It's like saying:

1. Charizard disproves the theory because the Chinese Zodiac animal is a Lung (Chinese dragon), not a Western dragon.

2. Blaziken disproves the theory because chickens have wings, so Blaziken isn't a chicken.

3. Cinderace disproves the theory, because Cinderace can't prove that it's not a hare instead of a rabbit.

4. If a fire starter was a pony, it would disprove the theory because it's not a horse.

5. If a fire starter was a sheep/goat, it would disprove the theory because you are one of the people who believe the Chinese zodiac animal is a goat/sheep instead and those who interpret the Zodiac the other way are wrong.

6. Blaziken disproves the theory, because the Zodiac animal is a rooster and some Blaziken are female, so they are hens instead of roosters.

Who is really the group doing the reaching?

When accepting or rejecting patterns, one has to consider probabilities based upon set sizes. The set of 12 Zodiac animals and 8 released Fire starters is much smaller than the set of 900 released pokemon and much smaller still than the set of animals.

A better way to look at it is this. Of all the pokemon families, how many are chickens? 1. EXACTLY ONE. The fire starter. Of all the pokemon families, how many are tigers? 1. EXACTLY ONE. The fire starter. Those are BOTH true. The odds are less extreme for the others, but consider that this kept happening.
 
A better way to look at it is this. Of all the pokemon families, how many are chickens? 1. EXACTLY ONE. The fire starter. Of all the pokemon families, how many are tigers? 1. EXACTLY ONE. The fire starter. Those are BOTH true. The odds are less extreme for the others, but consider that this kept happening.
In USUM, if you show the director at the GF Headquarters a Piloswine caught in Gen II, he states that he designed it because he wanted to complete the Chinese Zodiac among the Pokemon at the time. Which means there IS a Chinese Zodiac among Pokemon, but it is not among the Fire Starters but among the collective of Gen II(or combination of Gen I and Gen II) Pokemon.

Also the arguments you made are pretty strawman-ish since you avoided bringing up two of the three Fire starters people have ACTUAL contention with for the Zodiac theory (Typhlosion and Delphox)
 

KaenSoul

Poder Compartido y Re-Evolución
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A better way to look at it is this. Of all the pokemon families, how many are chickens? 1. EXACTLY ONE. The fire starter. Of all the pokemon families, how many are tigers? 1. EXACTLY ONE. The fire starter. Those are BOTH true. The odds are less extreme for the others, but consider that this kept happening.
Now how many of them are rats? or rabbits, or snakes, or dogs, or horses, or goats, or pigs, or monkeys, or dragons?
All are animals we have plenty of, we even have a fire horse that isn't a starter. Like seriously, there is a big difference between a long and an European dragon, Charizard doesn't fit with the corresponding animal as you noted, and should be enough to say the theory has no basis.
Is just a fun theory, we know how the design process for Torchic was and has nothing to do with the zodiac, but who knows, maybe in recent times they decided to use an animal from the Chinese zodiac after hearing the fan theory and thought it would be fun or something.
This is the kind of stuff Game Freak has no idea about until someone asks them in an interview and are surprised by the idea, fans take this stuff way too seriously.
Fuecoco just stays as a crocodile anyway
 
what I expect to happen in The Discourse is for Fuecoco to be counted as a "dragon" (its a big lizard, you see) and then just write off Charizard as the first two gens not counting even though people spent 20 years counting it as a dragon. If nothing else it lets them cast off the albatross around their neck that is the "POKEDEX CALLS CYNDAQUIL A MOUSE" logic while everything else about the design being a...........hedgehog....echidna....porcupine...? That turns into a weaselbadger? & the first run of starters had a bear instead while cyndaquil was a separate non-fire design....
I don't think anyone on either side of the argument is thrilled to be dealing with Cyndaquil, honestly.
 
In USUM, if you show the director at the GF Headquarters a Piloswine caught in Gen II, he states that he designed it because he wanted to complete the Chinese Zodiac among the Pokemon at the time. Which means there IS a Chinese Zodiac among Pokemon, but it is not among the Fire Starters but among the collective of Gen II(or combination of Gen I and Gen II) Pokemon.

Also the arguments you made are pretty strawman-ish since you avoided bringing up two of the three Fire starters people have ACTUAL contention with for the Zodiac theory (Typhlosion and Delphox)
You want to show me the chicken and tiger in gen I and II? Because it looks like you're claiming Game Freak reaches even more than we do.

Also, yes. The point is the issues people hav with Delphox and Typhlosion are as stupid as people claiming Blaziken isn't a chicken as it doesn't have wings. That was my point.

Now how many of them are rats? or rabbits, or snakes, or dogs, or horses, or goats, or pigs, or monkeys, or dragons?
All are animals we have plenty of, we even have a fire horse that isn't a starter. Like seriously, there is a big difference between a long and an European dragon, Charizard doesn't fit with the corresponding animal as you noted, and should be enough to say the theory has no basis.
Is just a fun theory, we know how the design process for Torchic was and has nothing to do with the zodiac, but who knows, maybe in recent times they decided to use an animal from the Chinese zodiac after hearing the fan theory and thought it would be fun or something.
This is the kind of stuff Game Freak has no idea about until someone asks them in an interview and are surprised by the idea, fans take this stuff way too seriously.
Fuecoco just stays as a crocodile anyway

And here we have someone proving my point about this ridiculousness by jumping on my charizard example, becoming a parody of themselves.

But sure, I was busy checking anyway. Let's be generous and say that there are 70 dragons, 30 rats, 50 monkeys, 10 pigs, 30 dogs and 20 rabbits in 360 families.

If we say that, then in the first 8 fire starters, you would expect 1.6 dragons and/or 1.1 monkeys, yes. You would also only expect 0.6 recurring rats, 0.02 recurring chickens, 0.2 recurring pigs, 0.6 recurring dogs, 0.02 recurring tigers and/0r 0.4 recurring rabbits. And that's ONLY if you count them SEPPERATLY. If you COMBINE the odds, they get MUCH smaller.
 
It's weird the pokedex calls Cyndaquil a mouse, but BDSP and Legends Arceus reminded me that Bidoof is referred to as the Plump Mouse pokemon, which is probably the most baffling dex categorization they've done

It's a shame Bidoof wasn't a fire starter, then we could get arguments about whether beavers fit the zodiac theory
 
You want to show me the chicken and tiger in gen I and II? Because it looks like you're claiming Game Freak reaches even more than we do.
I'm not "claiming" anything, this is legitimately a line in USUM if you show the Game Freak director a Piloswine caught in the Virtual Console versions of Gold, Silver, and Crystal.

" You know Piloswine? I designed that Pokémon. I felt like I had to get all 12 animals in the Chinese zodiac together, you know? "

And while I can't point down which one is the Rooster, the Tiger is probably Raikou. There has been Japanese media that has depicted the Rooster of the Zodiac as a non-chicken bird(like the Anime Fruits Basket, which used a Sparrow), so it could be any bird Pokemon.
 
And while I can't point down which one is the Rooster, the Tiger is probably Raikou. There has been Japanese media that has depicted the Rooster of the Zodiac as a non-chicken bird(like the Anime Fruits Basket, which used a Sparrow), so it could be any bird Pokemon.
What about Elekid and Magby, or their respective evolutions? Or does THIS pattern only exist in Gen 2?
 

DHR-107

Robot from the Future
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Orange Islands
WAITWAITWAIT- There's a new Trailer!? And my boy Diglett is here!?
God I sometimes suck at following the news, thanks God for notifications.
Well not quite, they're doing something on a pokemon special site, just it's in Japanese and I can't for my own good figure how to open the stuff in it..
https://wpes.pokemon.co.jp/ja/

GDI, it's year 2022 and they STILL haven't understood how to make shit intelligible for non-japanese people :|
 
According to the site, it's not a Diglett, but a brand new Pokemon that looks like Diglett. Something like convergent evolution. Also...
I was noticing a lot of disappointment around for it not being a regional form.

My guess is that the only reasoning for it being "its own thing" would be if it has significant enough typing / mechanic differences and possibly a significantly different evolution (or doesn't evolve?) to justify that.

The caption text seemed to imply it's a ground type, and tecnically we have precedent for a ground type that lives on the beach (Palossand), and if it's ground type it'd be a somewhat passable first reasoning to justify not being a regional form (as it'd be identical to Diglett).
 
Unrelated to the above, apparently some of the new imagery also shown that pokemon in the overworld seem to have some sort of interaction.

Considering that one of the complaints about SwSh was the fact that overworld pokemon just kinda "stood there" and disregarded each other (even when they should be competitors or even sworn enemies), I would think this is a step in the right direction to make the overworld feel more "alive", expecially if SV will be a "pure openworld" as they claim it will.
 
I was noticing a lot of disappointment around for it not being a regional form.

My guess is that the only reasoning for it being "its own thing" would be if it has significant enough typing / mechanic differences and possibly a significantly different evolution (or doesn't evolve?) to justify that.

The caption text seemed to imply it's a ground type, and tecnically we have precedent for a ground type that lives on the beach (Palossand), and if it's ground type it'd be a somewhat passable first reasoning to justify not being a regional form (as it'd be identical to Diglett).
A plus to being a completely new Pokemon is a permanent place in a region's Pokedex. Alolan Ninetales and Exeggutor will never move their dex placement to be near Alola while the regional evolutions will always be away from the rest of their line, but this Pokemon will be considered a Paldean Pokemon. Of course, this only matters regarding the national dex that no longer exists within the games, since regional dexes have their own placements.
 

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