Pokemon Scarlet & Violet - 18th Nov 2022! **OFFICIAL INFO ONLY**

It's as odd as the existance of Nidoran m/f, aka remnants of previous gens where a given concept wasn't present.

Possibly when they made regional forms they didn't really think of the concept of convergent evolutions yet. That's really about it.
I mean they had convergent evolutions for a long time. They just don’t call them convergent evolutions (or community didn’t). In fact you can argue it was there back in Gen 1 with Kabutops and Scyther. 2 different species of Pokemon and things they are based on but are extremely similar and look pretty similar in some regards.
There are also things like Furret and Linoone, Sentret and Emolga, and a huge chunk of Unova being new Kanto.
 

Pikachu315111

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Say, would some version exclusives maybe count as convergent evolution?

GEN I: Couldn't really find strong contenders in Gen I. Like there's semi-pairs such as Vulpix & Growlithe (2-stage Fire-types which are normal canine quadruped mammals which use a Fire Stone to evolve into a mythical creature), Oddish & Bellsprout (3-stage Grass/Poison-types which are walking plants that evolve into into their final forms with a Grass Stone into a plant based on one that doesn't use photosynthesis), and finally Electabuzz & Magmar (mono-stage and mono-type Pokemon based on mythical creatures which have taken a humanoid form).

GEN II: To me the most notable on would be Mantine & Skarmory. Both fly despite one being a fish, had the same BST (until Gen VII gave Mantine an extra 20 points in HP), and are fairly bulky (though Mantine focuses on Special, Skarmory on Physical).

GEN III: This is the gen where they really began with having a majority of the version exclusives having parallels so you know who-is-who's counterpart. In terms of convergent evolution I'd say that Lotad & Seedot (3-stage partial Grass-types whose final stage requires an Evo Stone to evolve into a well known yokai-based Pokemon) and Sableye & Mawile (mono Pokemon both based on fairly obscure mythical creatures who live in a mineral rich cave which they have adapted into their eating behavior; Sableye eats gems and Mawile's horn hardened to steel jaws it uses to catch prey).

GEN IV: None that I can see.

GEN V: None here either. "But what about Gothita & Solosis or Rufflet & Vullaby"? Eh, in my book there needs to be some extra dimension to them aside sharing the same Type and placement. Gothita is a star fortune teller, Solosis is a dividing cell, Rufflet is an eagle, Vullaby is a vulture/buzzard; there's really no other connecting point beyond the Type and in under the large casting umbrella order.

GEN VI: Moving on.

GEN VII: There might be an example of convergent evolution between Turtonator and Drampa. Both are mono-stage dragons who live atop one of the mountains in Alola and adapted to it. Also, despite being from different dimensions, Buzzwole & Pheromosa are physically strong humanoid bugs which homeworld are harsh environments that molded their species.

GEN VIII: And nothing which stands out to me here.

But, hey, we got some hits. Also, while looking through them, some other groups crossed my mind:

Pikaclones: Oh, yeah, the group the SERIES MASCOT BELONGS TO can be considered convergent evolution. Pikachu is a mouse, Plusle & Minun are... part of the group, Pachirisu is a squirrel, Emolga is a flying squirrel, Dedenne is a gerbil, Togedemaru is a porcupine/hedgehog, Morpeko is a hamster, and now we have Pawmi which seems to be a marmot. However they all share at least the most iconic trait: the cheek pouches which stores electricity.

Pseudo Legendaries: On of the bigger stretches, but you can't deny at least some of them have points of comparison.

Grass-types & Plants: So there are plenty of Grass-type Pokemon who exist alongside the plant they're based off of, especially those based on food. Exeggutor & palm trees, Tangela and vines, Sunkern and sunflowers, Lotad and lily pads, Shroomish/Foongus/Morelull and mushrooms, Roselia and roses, Cacnea/Maractus and cacti, Tropius and fruit trees, Cherubi and cherries, Snover and evergreens, Cottonee/Gossifleur and cotton, Pumpkaboo and pumpkins, Bounsweet and mangosteens (or at least other fruit), and now Smoliv and olives.

Also, we've seen coral are there own thing thus it and Corsola would be convergent evolution.
 
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I think Wiglett by itself is fine, but I'd prefer if "convergent evolutions" in the sense that "it looks like a regional form but isn't" don't become a regular thing. Some monster collecting games pass off recolors as completely new species and I'd rather if Pokémon didn't start doing that. (But now that I said it, we'll probably get a purple Alakazam that uses forks instead of spoons.)

I imagine Wiglett's evolution will probably be completely different from Dugtrio, which will make me more accepting of the idea if it doesn't evolve into "Dugtrio but looooooong".
 
Sometimes I wonder if they regret not just having forms be their own Pokemon like they always treat them for in wording.

The galarian birds in particular have some really peculiar language used with them that makes it sound like the only reason they aren't separate pokemon is because they didn't think they could get away with it.
 

Pikachu315111

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Sometimes I wonder if they regret not just having forms be their own Pokemon like they always treat them for in wording.

The galarian birds in particular have some really peculiar language used with them that makes it sound like the only reason they aren't separate pokemon is because they didn't think they could get away with it.
Well we'll have to wait until the game is released to see what they do with Wiglett. Regional Formes thing is that, since they're subspecies, they can essentially use the same stats and movepool but only need to slightly change & adjust things according to the changes they did to the forms Type, Ability and/or design. They can set a precedent between Regional Forms and these convergent evolutions by having Wiglett's stats not be identical to Diglett's (and I mean the individual stat numbers, BST it can share as many Pokemon share BST) and it's Movepool is built from the ground up (MAYBE it can have the same level pacing and general Attack & Status pattern, but that would feel like pushing things so, if this is meant to be a completely new species, should have its movepool built from the ground up (or at least using a template that isn't Diglett's)).

As for the Galar Legendary Birds, I think the peculiar language is because they're Legendary Pokemon and they like to leave some mystery around them. There's also two layers of things going on here: In-World Lore and Meta Mechanics. Mechanically they are Regional Variants, they just took the Bird Trio's stats and moved them around and swapped out Moves in their Level-up matching their new Typing. It's a quick short term to help the player understand how they would essentially play. Now, for in-world lore, that's where they focus on trying to make things more ambiguous. Them being Regional Variants would be considered just a hypothesis, Legendary Pokemon aren't that easy to get a hold of (and those who do are usually more interested in battling than research) so solid evidence isn't ever likely. But, for the player, mechanics always trumps lore when you get down to the nitty-gritty.

They can say the Galar Legendary Birds may be a different species all they want, but mechanically they are just a different form. For Wiglett, we'll see. If it's stats and movepool looks nothing like Diglett, then it looking like Diglett is just them having fun with design & a biological concept. If it does however, it'll more look like that they were making a Regional Form but realized logically it doesn't make sense so are now trying to push a new narrative to cover-up their mistake. It would be still be considered its own species, but in title only, otherwise it'll be treated as any other alt form just with a giant asterisks next to it. It could give Mimikyu company at least.
 

AquaticPanic

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Alright I see some people are still a bit confused on what convergent evolution would mean so here's some geeking out by some guy who likes biology

(Note: For the purposes of this post, "Evolution" will be refering to the real life term rather than the game mechanic)


So before we go into Convergence, I wanna go over the opposite - Divergent Evolution. I'm doing this because two species being a case of divergent evolution would automatically disqualify both of them from being a case of convergent evolution with one another.

Divergent Evolution refers to when two species share an ancestor, but at some point in time, the ancestor adapted into different ecosystems or ecological niches and eventually evolved into different species. think stuff like Chimps and Gorillas, or the different subspecies of foxes, or how pelicans, macaws and woodpeckers have different beak shapes to aid with their diet. In Pokémon, the most obvious cases of these would be through some regional variants - At some time in the past some :meowth: Meowth adapted either to :meowth-alola: Alola's or :meowth-galar: Galar's circumstances and became new subspecies (The later of which resulting in a new species altogether with :perrserker: Perserker)


However, this isn't limited to Regional Variants. The Pokédex confirms quite a few relationship between a few mons. For an example, PLA states that :pachirisu: Pachirisu and :pikachu: Pikachu are biologically related, meaning they must have an ancestor in common. Similarly, Sword and Shield dex entries also imply that :toxicroak: Toxicroak and :seismitoad: Seismitoad are related. Likewise, we can assume that most canine Pokémon are related, such as say, :yamper: Yamper and :lillipup: Lillipup or :growlithe: Growlithe, :fennekin: Fennekin and :vulpix: Vulpix, meaning that they're a very likely case of Divergent Evolution since they share biological roots. :archeops: Archeops is also an acestor to most Bird Pokémon. I'd say this is also where a lot of counterparts, such as :simisage: :simisear: :simipour: The Simi Triplets or :milotic: Milotic and :gyarados: Gyarados, would fall under.



So next up, how does Convergent Evolution work in the first place, for us to be able to determine what in Pokémon could be considered that? Convergent Evolution, as a term, can refer to varying levels of similarity - As pointed out in a few posts ago, wings are considered a case of convergent evolution when they were developped by bugs, mammals and birds separetely; but there's also way more extreme cases of convergent evolution like Sugar Gliders and Flying Squirrels being bizzarely identical.

So I'd say Wiglett is not the first case of Convergent Evolution in the franchise - See :amoonguss: Amoonguss and :stunfisk-galar: Galarian Stunfisk both evolving to have Pokéball-Looking body parts as means to lure in prey, or :donphan: Donphan and :whirlipede: whirlipede both evolving to have bodies that facilitate moving by rolling around like a wheel all the time, all while definitely not sharing any ancestry. These are, in my opinion, definitive cases of convergent evolution (And, if we are to take the wings example from earlier, you could argue that stuff like :charizard: Charizard, :mothim: Mothim, :swellow: Swellow and :noivern: Noivern technically are a case of convergence as well)

What I do think Wiglett falls under, though, is the comparison between Sugar Gliders and Flying Squirrels - A convergent evolution that falls to the more extreme end, and in that case I do think its the first one we get (At least that I can think of). Both Diglett and Wiglett are Pokémon that spend most of their times underground, only ever poke their heads out, have poor eyesight and a good sense of smell, so their bodies evolve similar features. Wiglett is also most likely the first time they intentionally do this rather than making two Pokémon with body functions that happen to overlap. (There is one very weird case though - :articuno-galar::zapdos-galar::moltres-galar: the Galarian Birds. Peony and some dex entries vaguely imply that they're not related to the other birds, but the dex still classifies them as the same species they have the same name and the same cry, unlike Wiglett. I can't quite come to a conclusion on them - Part of this feels done to avoid any controversy on straight up making regional variants for legendaries, but part of it also just feels like contextualizing why they still have the names "Freezer, Thunder and Fire" if they're not elemental anymore. Very weird mons overall imo, I kinda get the feeling that TPC themselves were unsure on how they should work. then again that's just galar lore for you)



So where does the confusion come from and what would this mean for the franchise going forward? I feel like what's making people confused is that visually it does look like a Regional Variant but it has worldbuilding reasons as to why its not. I can't really blame the general Pokémon audience for not being too invested in lore, though, so I can see why trying to explain why Convergent Evolutions are a different thing than Regionals to someone who isn't that preocupied with lore and worldbuilding could be confusing.

I think the bottom line should mostly be "Does it make sense, even for this fantasy setting, for this change to occur with the given Pokémon?". In this case, where we already know through game descriptions that Diglett has limbs, doesn't live near water and is a Mammal, it wouldn't really make sense for it to become this eel we see right now so they had to make it a different Pokémon. Similarly, in a point I made a few posts ago, Palossand going from being made out of sand to being made out of candy wouldn't really make sense for a regional variant, even if the idea of a sentient candy castle isn't too out there. Another common idea I've seen floating around thefandom before Wiglett's reveal was regional variants for Porygon that turned it into origami - which, once again, while a fun visual concept, wouldn't really work as a variant since Porygon is a digital mon made out of computer code and wouldn't really make sense for it to become paper. The thing that quite a few people miss about Regional Variants is that they're more than just type swaps, they need an explaination (that makes at least some sense) on how they went from A to B. (I realise this is a franchise where "A to B" can sometimes mean "Fish to Octopus", but I still think that overall most Pokémon that are connected to one another make enough sense.) With the introduction of Wiglett, you can have your Porigamis and your Candygasts all you want since they wouldn't be too messy lorewise!

As for what it means for the franchise, I think we aren't going to see too many of them. The way I see it, Convergents are an extension of Regional Variants in a way - You could either recontextualise a Pokémon's look and lore to a new region, such as a Wooper that spends too much time on the surface becoming permanently poisonous, or you could reimagine a Pokémon under more out there approaches, picturing how the similarities between the two of them occur. I believe that as we go forward, we're gonna still see more Regional Variants in comparison, but maybe one or two convergent species here and there with wilder concepts like a hummingbird that looks like a pre-existing Bug or a land urchin that sorta resembles Pincurchin or something - stuff that can't logically be a variant, but still be mostly designed like a variant would be.



So, TLDR, idt these mons are gonna be trying to "fix" or replace variants, moreso they're a way for GameFreak to do variant-like designs with more liberty since they can turn the idea into a new mon altogether if needed, not having to be too preocupied on how the other mon would relate to this one.


I am very curious to see how Wiglett relates to Diglett mechanically though - I'd expect it to have some sort of tie back to Diglett but I think they'd also try to differentiate it from Regional Variants, so i'm not too sure how far they'd change Wiglett's mechanics. They would need to find a balance between "not close enough where the changes are functionally a regional variant but not too different where there's nothing that calls back to diglett"
 
I mean they had convergent evolutions for a long time. They just don’t call them convergent evolutions (or community didn’t). In fact you can argue it was there back in Gen 1 with Kabutops and Scyther. 2 different species of Pokemon and things they are based on but are extremely similar and look pretty similar in some regards.
There are also things like Furret and Linoone, Sentret and Emolga, and a huge chunk of Unova being new Kanto.
I actually thought of Luvdisc/Alomomola and Tauros/Bouffalant
 
Alright I see some people are still a bit confused on what convergent evolution would mean so here's some geeking out by some guy who likes biology

(Note: For the purposes of this post, "Evolution" will be refering to the real life term rather than the game mechanic)


So before we go into Convergence, I wanna go over the opposite - Divergent Evolution. I'm doing this because two species being a case of divergent evolution would automatically disqualify both of them from being a case of convergent evolution with one another.

Divergent Evolution refers to when two species share an ancestor, but at some point in time, the ancestor adapted into different ecosystems or ecological niches and eventually evolved into different species. think stuff like Chimps and Gorillas, or the different subspecies of foxes, or how pelicans, macaws and woodpeckers have different beak shapes to aid with their diet. In Pokémon, the most obvious cases of these would be through some regional variants - At some time in the past some :meowth: Meowth adapted either to :meowth-alola: Alola's or :meowth-galar: Galar's circumstances and became new subspecies (The later of which resulting in a new species altogether with :perrserker: Perserker)


However, this isn't limited to Regional Variants. The Pokédex confirms quite a few relationship between a few mons. For an example, PLA states that :pachirisu: Pachirisu and :pikachu: Pikachu are biologically related, meaning they must have an ancestor in common. Similarly, Sword and Shield dex entries also imply that :toxicroak: Toxicroak and :seismitoad: Seismitoad are related. Likewise, we can assume that most canine Pokémon are related, such as say, :yamper: Yamper and :lillipup: Lillipup or :growlithe: Growlithe, :fennekin: Fennekin and :vulpix: Vulpix, meaning that they're a very likely case of Divergent Evolution since they share biological roots. :archeops: Archeops is also an acestor to most Bird Pokémon. I'd say this is also where a lot of counterparts, such as :simisage: :simisear: :simipour: The Simi Triplets or :milotic: Milotic and :gyarados: Gyarados, would fall under.



So next up, how does Convergent Evolution work in the first place, for us to be able to determine what in Pokémon could be considered that? Convergent Evolution, as a term, can refer to varying levels of similarity - As pointed out in a few posts ago, wings are considered a case of convergent evolution when they were developped by bugs, mammals and birds separetely; but there's also way more extreme cases of convergent evolution like Sugar Gliders and Flying Squirrels being bizzarely identical.

So I'd say Wiglett is not the first case of Convergent Evolution in the franchise - See :amoonguss: Amoonguss and :stunfisk-galar: Galarian Stunfisk both evolving to have Pokéball-Looking body parts as means to lure in prey, or :donphan: Donphan and :whirlipede: whirlipede both evolving to have bodies that facilitate moving by rolling around like a wheel all the time, all while definitely not sharing any ancestry. These are, in my opinion, definitive cases of convergent evolution (And, if we are to take the wings example from earlier, you could argue that stuff like :charizard: Charizard, :mothim: Mothim, :swellow: Swellow and :noivern: Noivern technically are a case of convergence as well)

What I do think Wiglett falls under, though, is the comparison between Sugar Gliders and Flying Squirrels - A convergent evolution that falls to the more extreme end, and in that case I do think its the first one we get (At least that I can think of). Both Diglett and Wiglett are Pokémon that spend most of their times underground, only ever poke their heads out, have poor eyesight and a good sense of smell, so their bodies evolve similar features. Wiglett is also most likely the first time they intentionally do this rather than making two Pokémon with body functions that happen to overlap. (There is one very weird case though - :articuno-galar::zapdos-galar::moltres-galar: the Galarian Birds. Peony and some dex entries vaguely imply that they're not related to the other birds, but the dex still classifies them as the same species they have the same name and the same cry, unlike Wiglett. I can't quite come to a conclusion on them - Part of this feels done to avoid any controversy on straight up making regional variants for legendaries, but part of it also just feels like contextualizing why they still have the names "Freezer, Thunder and Fire" if they're not elemental anymore. Very weird mons overall imo, I kinda get the feeling that TPC themselves were unsure on how they should work. then again that's just galar lore for you)



So where does the confusion come from and what would this mean for the franchise going forward? I feel like what's making people confused is that visually it does look like a Regional Variant but it has worldbuilding reasons as to why its not. I can't really blame the general Pokémon audience for not being too invested in lore, though, so I can see why trying to explain why Convergent Evolutions are a different thing than Regionals to someone who isn't that preocupied with lore and worldbuilding could be confusing.

I think the bottom line should mostly be "Does it make sense, even for this fantasy setting, for this change to occur with the given Pokémon?". In this case, where we already know through game descriptions that Diglett has limbs, doesn't live near water and is a Mammal, it wouldn't really make sense for it to become this eel we see right now so they had to make it a different Pokémon. Similarly, in a point I made a few posts ago, Palossand going from being made out of sand to being made out of candy wouldn't really make sense for a regional variant, even if the idea of a sentient candy castle isn't too out there. Another common idea I've seen floating around thefandom before Wiglett's reveal was regional variants for Porygon that turned it into origami - which, once again, while a fun visual concept, wouldn't really work as a variant since Porygon is a digital mon made out of computer code and wouldn't really make sense for it to become paper. The thing that quite a few people miss about Regional Variants is that they're more than just type swaps, they need an explaination (that makes at least some sense) on how they went from A to B. (I realise this is a franchise where "A to B" can sometimes mean "Fish to Octopus", but I still think that overall most Pokémon that are connected to one another make enough sense.) With the introduction of Wiglett, you can have your Porigamis and your Candygasts all you want since they wouldn't be too messy lorewise!

As for what it means for the franchise, I think we aren't going to see too many of them. The way I see it, Convergents are an extension of Regional Variants in a way - You could either recontextualise a Pokémon's look and lore to a new region, such as a Wooper that spends too much time on the surface becoming permanently poisonous, or you could reimagine a Pokémon under more out there approaches, picturing how the similarities between the two of them occur. I believe that as we go forward, we're gonna still see more Regional Variants in comparison, but maybe one or two convergent species here and there with wilder concepts like a hummingbird that looks like a pre-existing Bug or a land urchin that sorta resembles Pincurchin or something - stuff that can't logically be a variant, but still be mostly designed like a variant would be.



So, TLDR, idt these mons are gonna be trying to "fix" or replace variants, moreso they're a way for GameFreak to do variant-like designs with more liberty since they can turn the idea into a new mon altogether if needed, not having to be too preocupied on how the other mon would relate to this one.


I am very curious to see how Wiglett relates to Diglett mechanically though - I'd expect it to have some sort of tie back to Diglett but I think they'd also try to differentiate it from Regional Variants, so i'm not too sure how far they'd change Wiglett's mechanics. They would need to find a balance between "not close enough where the changes are functionally a regional variant but not too different where there's nothing that calls back to diglett"
Very well said and descriptive! It definitely is weird with how they vaguely imply that stuff with the Galarian birds, although I think that and the matter of naming is still reasonably justified with things like Zapdos' thunder-crackle feather ruffling and Articuno's icy lasers. That reminds me of what I was thinking about originally when Hisuian Voltorb was revealed, and how it kind of HAD to be electric type because it'd make no sense if the "original" wasn't electrical at all yet was somehow named Voltorb lol

Also I think that we should all be focusing more critique on Alolan Raichu's """justification""", it's EASILY the worst offender. They clearly just wanted "a surfing Pikachu" in any capacity without any actual explanation, as opposed to, you know, literally every other regional form. "It ate too many pancakes" is NOT a good enough explanation, LAME Freak >:(
 
Also I think that we should all be focusing more critique on Alolan Raichu's """justification""", it's EASILY the worst offender. They clearly just wanted "a surfing Pikachu" in any capacity without any actual explanation, as opposed to, you know, literally every other regional form. "It ate too many pancakes" is NOT a good enough explanation, LAME Freak >:(
Pancakes are sweet
And sugar boosts the brain
Brain = Psychic
Therefore, pancakes = Psychic
It's not hard to understand darn it.
 
Well we'll have to wait until the game is released to see what they do with Wiglett. Regional Formes thing is that, since they're subspecies, they can essentially use the same stats and movepool but only need to slightly change & adjust things according to the changes they did to the forms Type, Ability and/or design. They can set a precedent between Regional Forms and these convergent evolutions by having Wiglett's stats not be identical to Diglett's (and I mean the individual stat numbers, BST it can share as many Pokemon share BST) and it's Movepool is built from the ground up (MAYBE it can have the same level pacing and general Attack & Status pattern, but that would feel like pushing things so, if this is meant to be a completely new species, should have its movepool built from the ground up (or at least using a template that isn't Diglett's)).
Another thing they can do to easily set them apart is change the egg group, from Field (mammal) to Water 2 (fish). As Pikachu315111 mentioned, when they design regional forms they are somewhat constrained to what they can change (e.g., both forms have to have same BST, same egg group, same egg # steps, same experience leveling rate, same catch rate, etc.). This time around, they can (& I hope they do) play with these design elements.
 
Another thing they can do to easily set them apart is change the egg group, from Field (mammal) to Water 2 (fish). As Pikachu315111 mentioned, when they design regional forms they are somewhat constrained to what they can change (e.g., both forms have to have same BST, same egg group, same egg # steps, same experience leveling rate, same catch rate, etc.). This time around, they can (& I hope they do) play with these design elements.
And to be fair this may actually be why they have decided to try this new route instead of sticking with just Regional forms: it also gives them more freedom to produce new absurdly broken and optimized Pokemon with much less restrictions on the design.
 

Pikachu315111

Ranting & Raving!
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Also I think that we should all be focusing more critique on Alolan Raichu's """justification""", it's EASILY the worst offender. They clearly just wanted "a surfing Pikachu" in any capacity without any actual explanation, as opposed to, you know, literally every other regional form. "It ate too many pancakes" is NOT a good enough explanation, LAME Freak >:(
But did you ever ask yourself what were in those pancakes? No, seriously. No one thinks its ridiculous Oricorio changes form because of the nectar they eat. Also, being ALL Pikachu evolve into Alolan Raichu in Alola, I doubt all of them have eaten pancakes. It's obviously something about the general diet which Pikachu adapt to in Alola which causes the change in evolution. Maybe KalosianPorygon isn't too far off with their theory: We've seen that simply getting more sun makes Alolan Exeggutor grow really tall, maybe the extra sun also caused Berries to develop extra sugars and possibly other chemicals which radically causes a change in Pikachu's biology when exposed to energy of a Thunder Stone.

So where did the pancake thing come from? If I had to guess, Pikachu weren't originally native to Alola so the first batch brought over likely evolved into normal Raichu. However, a few were given high sugary Alolan food by their trainers, notably pancakes, and when evolved they gotten enough Alolan food in their diet they evolved into Alolan Raichu. And thus the rumor was born, though after several generations of natural hatched Alolan Pikachu its clear this isn't the case but no one seems particularly curious what exactly is the trigger; plus it gives the excuse for trainers to make pancakes. "No, I'm not slacking on my training and diet, I'm trying to evolve my Pikachu".
 
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