Data Pokemon Sun/Moon Battle Mechanics Research

Torment prevents your opponent from using the same move twice in a row after you use the move itself, and its effect continues even after the user faints.

Hypothetical situation: Let's say I'm in with a Hydreigon vs a Clefable which has moonblast as its only attacking move. I click Torment and die to the moonblast, and now I'm allowed to bring in a setup sweeper of my choice and set up while the Clefable is forced to use any other of its 3 non-attacking moves or switch out.
Oh, so the move that was used before Torment never mattered. Good to know.

On another matter, I can confirm that if you Z-Mirror Move a status move, you don't get its additional effects.

I had my Staraptor use Z-Mirror Move on a Dragonite's Toxic. Staraptor used Z-Toxic, but did not get +1 Defense. Just Z-Mirror Move's own +2 Attack.

Other Z-status moves should work the same way...
 
If the target is carried into the sky via Sky Drop, they can be struck by Thousand Arrows without striking the Pokemon that carried it up there. However, this doesn't free them from Sky Drop.

Proof! A4PW-WWWW-WWW3-YWT9

They also do not lose their immunity to ground attacks if they're flying-type or levitating, if they're struck with Thousand Arrows in that way.

5HSW-WWWW-WWW3-YWPF It's not shown directly in this replay, but I tested the above fact with my Mega Aerodactyl and Zygarde against their Minior in a mock battle.

Also, random fun fact: if you enter a mock battle against an opponent with lower-levelled Pokemon, your OWN Pokemon's levels get scaled down to match or get closer to theirs! I was not expecting to enter battle with a level 15 Tapu Bulu, heh.
 
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Also not sure if it already worked that way, but I noticed one small curious trait of how Knock Off and Sticky Hold interact.

As usual, if you use Knock Off on a Pokemon with Sticky Hold, the ability triggers and a message pops up, explaining the item could not be taken away.

However... if you KO the Sticky Hold Pokemon with Knock Off, the item is removed. That's how I realized a Gastrodon had Damp Rock when it didn't use Rain Dance.

Could be of interest for item scouting for a future battle, assuming it's a change.
 
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Since this whole confusion chance thing seems to still be under debate, I've decided to start collecting my own data. These preliminary results unfortunately don't include data on the duration of confusion, but I'll start counting that from now on. I tested in the wild in an SOS chain of Oricorios while spamming Teeter Dance with a Tangled Feet Spinda, and in 212 attempts at making moves by confused Pokémon (including attempts to copy Teeter Dance by the Oricorio), 135 of the moves succeeded, while 77 resulted in a self-hit. This comes out to about a 36.32% chance to hit one's self in confusion, disregarding the turn a Pokémon snaps out. It's not a terribly large sample size, and again, I neglected to count the number of times a Pokémon snapped out of confusion, but as I was testing, the ratio seemed to stay around 40-60 of self-hits to successful moves through Confusion.

Also, I noticed some interesting mechanics with Dancer while collecting this data, though these may already be known.
  • Attempting to use a move through Dancer while confused has to pass through the roll, same as any other move, and this also counts towards Confusion's duration counter.
  • Dancer didn't copy Teeter Dance unless it successfully confused at least one Pokémon.
  • For some reason, when there are two Pokémon on the field with Dancer, and a third Pokémon uses a dance move, the slower Pokémon with Dancer will copy the move first. At first, I thought it might've just been speed ties, but this was consistently the case, and I never noticed any two Oricorio actually tying. On a somewhat related note, Teeter Dance applied confusion in the same exact order every time, regardless of speed: ally first, then (the user's) right to left on the opponent's side.
Ok, 398 more samples, with 140 self-hits and 258 successful moves, which comes to approximately a 35.18% chance to hit one's self in confusion. Combining this data with that of my earlier test, we get 217 self-hits and 393 successful moves out of 610 tries, which comes out to an approximate 35.57% chance. That looks a lot closer to 1/3 than 1/2, but I'm no statistician. If 610 is still too small of a sample size, let me know and I'll make it 1000.

Other things:
  • The the average duration of the confusion was approximately 2.67 rolls, although the real number is probably more like 2.57 due to Oricorio ending the confusion early by KOing themselves. This seems to imply that a Pokémon is still equally likely to be confused for 1, 2, 3, or 4 moves.
  • It turns out that Teeter Dance actually applies confusion counter-clockwise starting from the user, but only most of the time. About 1/3 of the time, it went the other way for reasons I was unable to discern. That needs more testing in a full 2v2 battle. Dancer was still consistent when it came to the slower Oricorio copying Teeter Dance first.
 
I had a weird interaction in the battle tree where my Goliospod got hit by a Fake Out from Hariyama and it didn't flinch when I had used First Impression. I'm not sure if this might have been caused by the Hariyama potentially having Sheer Force but this is the only time I recall not being flinch haxed by a Hariyama in the Battle Tree so I was thinking maybe First Impression can't be stopped by a flinch. If someone could test this to be certain that would be cool.
 
I had a weird interaction in the battle tree where my Goliospod got hit by a Fake Out from Hariyama and it didn't flinch when I had used First Impression. I'm not sure if this might have been caused by the Hariyama potentially having Sheer Force but this is the only time I recall not being flinch haxed by a Hariyama in the Battle Tree so I was thinking maybe First Impression can't be stopped by a flinch. If someone could test this to be certain that would be cool.
But.... why would it not be simply Sheer Force? Why would you jump to the conclusion that First Impression cannot be stopped by Fake Out when you know that Hariyama can have Sheer Force? This is a baffling leap of logic.
 
Ok, 398 more samples, with 140 self-hits and 258 successful moves, which comes to approximately a 35.18% chance to hit one's self in confusion. Combining this data with that of my earlier test, we get 217 self-hits and 393 successful moves out of 610 tries, which comes out to an approximate 35.57% chance. That looks a lot closer to 1/3 than 1/2, but I'm no statistician. If 610 is still too small of a sample size, let me know and I'll make it 1000.

Other things:
  • The the average duration of the confusion was approximately 2.67 rolls, although the real number is probably more like 2.57 due to Oricorio ending the confusion early by KOing themselves. This seems to imply that a Pokémon is still equally likely to be confused for 1, 2, 3, or 4 moves.
  • It turns out that Teeter Dance actually applies confusion counter-clockwise starting from the user, but only most of the time. About 1/3 of the time, it went the other way for reasons I was unable to discern. That needs more testing in a full 2v2 battle. Dancer was still consistent when it came to the slower Oricorio copying Teeter Dance first.
I feel that it is more likely that Teeter Dance applies confusion in order of descending speed, like a lot of other Pokémon mechanics.
 
I feel that it is more likely that Teeter Dance applies confusion in order of descending speed, like a lot of other Pokémon mechanics.
Yeah, that's what I had thought too, but I'm pretty sure it applied confusion in different orders for the same Pokémon. Just to be sure I'm not being dumb, though, I'll triple check.

Edit: Confrimed that it's not based on speed, but I think it might prioritize Pokémon that are already confused over Pokémon that aren't.
 
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If Oranguru's partner holds the Metronome item, uses its attacking move, and gets Instructed to use its move a 2nd time, does Metronome apply the damage increase multiplier on the attack's 2nd use? Or does Metronome (again, the item) not kick in until the next turn?
I recently obtained the tools to test this with someone else from Showdown! on cart (thanks, Bootp!). Here's the result in the form of the replay they saved:

UG6G-WWWW-WWW3-UKC6

I waited until they built up their Buzzwole's defense with Bulk Up, that way I can many Icicle Spears without them fainting.

On turn 2, Cloyster, equipped with Metronome, used Icicle Spear against Buzzwole, and each dealt 9 damage (except the 5th, critical hit). After Instruct, Cloyster's Icicle Spear dealt 11 damage per tick!

I wanted to get a larger sample size, but Bootp doesn't have the best internet connection; this battle was actually our 2nd during testing, the first one DCed.

I think you guys like to gather larger sample sizes before officially confirming stuff like this, so I may grind out larger sample sizes with someone else tonight. If I do, I'll amend this post or make another one.
 
Hi

not sure if this is the right thread for questions, but since I had to host a SM OU tournament yesterday I've been wondering if Self-KO Clause (which is already in-game since gen 5) is somehow changed. I used to follow this thread in early release weeks, and I feel like there was something relating to Aftermath/Rough Skin/Iron Barbs/Liquid Ooze that changed, in regards of Self-KO Clause obviously. However, I also heard about a GameFreak statement about an in-game bug involving this Self-KO Clause.

For what written above, my question is: how does Self-KO Clause currently work? How should Self-KO Clause work, in correct stance? I'd like to ask also how should simulator games work with it but it's more like a policy question so I'll reserve it for other places when I'll get my answers here. Thank you!
 
For what written above, my question is: how does Self-KO Clause currently work? How should Self-KO Clause work, in correct stance? I'd like to ask also how should simulator games work with it but it's more like a policy question so I'll reserve it for other places when I'll get my answers here. Thank you!
As far as I understand, the Self-KO clause is supposed to be different from Gen VI but it still works the same way as there.
 

p2

Banned deucer.
hi

what effects does secret power gain from psychic terrain? i can't find anything on it at all. bulbapedia mentions the older terrains but absolutely nothing on this, meanwhile google searches aren't helping either
 
hi

what effects does secret power gain from psychic terrain? i can't find anything on it at all. bulbapedia mentions the older terrains but absolutely nothing on this, meanwhile google searches aren't helping either
http://dex.pokemonshowdown.com/moves/secretpower
Pokémon Showdown's own dex usually has very in-depth descriptions of moves, including their interactions with other moves and effects, or at least as much as is known.
 
First confusion test results, going to retest with speed tier controlling later since it was all over the place and stuff was left not confused for 2+ turns at some points
0= move was successful 1=confusion hax 2=turn where there was no confusion on that poke
Each row is a poke on the field (i tested for 82 turns before timer ran out, each poke spammed confuse ray)
To be cleaner. The decimal at the end is the average for that poke (I removed the turns that they were not confused), and the last one is every successful/failed roll averaged together (if that makes sense).
Code:
0020010211022220000212210012102012100020012010020000202000020200102202101022200 0.259259
0020002112000020001221100220020002110121210200002010121222010020220102202210002 0.301887
2012212012020220002202011221100211221102010120002020000120120212001200022000122 0.36
0002022010211120210222020012200020200120220010202020210021020101211220121211002 0.36
                                                                                0.3188
 

UltiMario

Out of Obscurity
is a Pokemon Researcher
I've been trying to investigate confusion too, did 132 confusion turns.

Following data doesn't have non-confusion turns noted:

1= Self Hit 0=Normal Attack
Code:
000000000011011010010000100000000000000110001111010000001111000000010000001100100000010000010000110100111100100001000100000000000110
Ended up with 36/132, or ~27.3%. Probably on the low end, since I have pretty bizarre stretches of no self hits in this sample (record was 14 in a row!). Since everyone was using Confuse Ray, I decided to check using Swagger instead.
 
Doesn't that basically settle it then? A number of people have collectively come up with a very large sample size over the last few days, and it seems pretty clear (the chance otherwise would be overwhelmingly small) that confusion's self-hit chance has been reduced to 1/3. I know someone mentioned above that there could be some other issue at play that's confounding results, but it seems like it makes sense to move forward with the assumption that it's a 1/3 chance, and if possible do some testing on the side if we're super suspicious that something's up.
 

Pyritie

TAMAGO
is an Artist
What is Sheer Cold's % to hit when used by non-ice types?

Doesn't that basically settle it then? A number of people have collectively come up with a very large sample size over the last few days, and it seems pretty clear (the chance otherwise would be overwhelmingly small) that confusion's self-hit chance has been reduced to 1/3. I know someone mentioned above that there could be some other issue at play that's confounding results, but it seems like it makes sense to move forward with the assumption that it's a 1/3 chance, and if possible do some testing on the side if we're super suspicious that something's up.
But is it 1/3 (33%) or a straight 30%?
 

UltiMario

Out of Obscurity
is a Pokemon Researcher
I'm pretty sure at this point that there's something that's only happening in-game (probably refresh related but I've got no fucking clue) that's warping confusion rates, and doing so in a weird fashion.

One of my lowest single-wild-battle samples (from earlier):
Code:
0000000000110110100100001000000000000001100011110100000011110000000
26.8%
vs
Code:
1011000001111000001011110100110100000100010101110110010
45.5%

45.5% on a 30-33% chance at a sample size of only 55 isn't impossible enough to where I could never get it, but it lines up with some similar small sample tests from earlier, of which we now know were also done during in-game battles that refresh and other in-game mechanics could impact.

These anomalous tests pretty much always have appeared in the same conditions: small-medium sample size tests, in an in-game wild or non-tree trainer battle. Something that's probably wrong but fits the data is if a battle rolls confusion chance before the battle begins, with better odds being in the 30-33% area and low odds for high confusion chances like 50%, but is a flat 30% or 33% in wifi battles. It explains why it vanishes in large sample sizes (even in-game ones), never appears in any Wifi/local battle sample size, but pops up in these types of scenarios every once in a while. It'd also explain why in-game samples like MacChaeger's roll a little higher than Wifi ones like ih8ih8sn0w's.

My stance on this matter is: Fuck Gamefreak for making Confusion so goddamn Confusing, but it's 30 or 33% for any purpose we need for Pokemon Showdown.
 
Checked through this thread and wondered the following:
1. What is the chance of Destiny Bond failing if used consecutively? I know it has a different turn timer but is the chance sequence exactly the same as Protect etc? i.e. 100% 33% 11% etc etc
2. What will happen if you use Core Enforcer on Wonder Guard?
This is the PS replay but I wonder if this is correct: http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7customgame-511979553
 
Checked through this thread and wondered the following:
1. What is the chance of Destiny Bond failing if used consecutively? I know it has a different turn timer but is the chance sequence exactly the same as Protect etc? i.e. 100% 33% 11% etc etc
2. What will happen if you use Core Enforcer on Wonder Guard?
This is the PS replay but I wonder if this is correct: http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7customgame-511979553
I assume for 2 it will fail since Core Enforcer's secondary condition only occurs if the move is successful
 
Checked through this thread and wondered the following:
1. What is the chance of Destiny Bond failing if used consecutively? I know it has a different turn timer but is the chance sequence exactly the same as Protect etc? i.e. 100% 33% 11% etc etc
2. What will happen if you use Core Enforcer on Wonder Guard?
This is the PS replay but I wonder if this is correct: http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7customgame-511979553
PS implementation of Destiny Bond is correct and fails 100% of the time if it is used again after a successful use of the move.
 

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