Data Pokemon Sun/Moon Battle Mechanics Research

Marty

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Burn Up: if Multitype Arceus holding Flame Plate uses it, can it lose its Fire type? if Oricorio-Baile uses it and then uses Revelation Dance, would it be a Flying-type move?
For Oricorio, Revelation Dance becomes typeless!
This is completely false. I never actually bothered testing this myself since I just trusted it was pretty simple, but when I was curious about Protean + Revelation Dance mechanics while typeless thanks to a bug reports post (http://www.smogon.com/forums/posts/7646904/), I found that Revelation Dance while type 1 was typeless, but a type 2 OR added type existed, just changed into type 2 if one existed, or the added type if not. The only way Revelation Dance will truly be typeless is if your current type is typeless alone.

I did those tests in USUM, so I thought maybe they updated it or something. Tested on Sun v1.2, same thing, so maybe they updated it in 1.1 or 1.2? Deleted the update and it's the same on v1.0 also.

Anyway, on to the Protean + Revelation Dance stuff:
Pyroar -> Burn Up -> swap Protean to it -> Revelation Dance -> Protean activates without a message -> Normal-type damage

Heatran -> Burn Up -> swap Protean to it -> Revelation Dance -> Protean activates without a message -> Steel-type damage

Typhlosion -> Burn Up -> swap Protean to it -> Revelation Dance -> Protean does not activate -> typeless damage

Moltres -> Burn Up -> swap Protean to it -> Revelation Dance -> Protean activates without a message -> Flying-type damage -> use Roost -> Protean does not activate -> use Skill Swap -> Protean changes to Psychic type -> get Protean back -> use Roost -> Protean changes to Flying type -> get hit with Karate Chop -> neutral damage
Theoretically, Protean would have modified all the user's types into the single type it was changing to, but typeless was evidently not overwritten here. Did the same thing again without Revelation Dance, and got the same result:
Moltres -> Burn Up -> swap Protean to it -> Roost -> Protean activates without a message -> use Skill Swap -> Protean changes to Psychic type -> get Protean back -> use Roost -> Protean changes to Flying type -> get hit with Karate Chop -> neutral damage
Then I did the same thing without "changing" to a Flying type first, and got the same result:
Moltres -> Burn Up -> swap Protean to it -> Karate Chop -> Protean changes to Fighting type -> use Roost -> Protean changes to Flying type -> get hit with Karate Chop -> neutral damage
Then I thought, what if your type 2 is typeless, does Protean still activate with no message when you use a type 1 attack? Yes:
Houndoom -> Burn Up -> swap Protean to it -> Bite -> Protean activates without a message

As you saw earlier, Protean will not activate again if you keep using the same type attack again after having it activate with no message. As far as I can tell, it begins activating the first time because the game knows you currently have more than one type, but then fails to display the message about what type it's changing you to because it's the same type you already are. Burn Up, then Forest's Curse into typeless/Flying/Grass, then Protean does in fact show the message, presumably because you now have at least two types, one of which is not typeless.

tl;dr None of this is really useful information, just interesting mechanics.
 
This is completely false. I never actually bothered testing this myself since I just trusted it was pretty simple, but when I was curious about Protean + Revelation Dance mechanics while typeless thanks to a bug reports post (http://www.smogon.com/forums/posts/7646904/), I found that Revelation Dance while type 1 was typeless, but a type 2 OR added type existed, just changed into type 2 if one existed, or the added type if not. The only way Revelation Dance will truly be typeless is if your current type is typeless alone.

I did those tests in USUM, so I thought maybe they updated it or something. Tested on Sun v1.2, same thing, so maybe they updated it in 1.1 or 1.2? Deleted the update and it's the same on v1.0 also.

Anyway, on to the Protean + Revelation Dance stuff:


Theoretically, Protean would have modified all the user's types into the single type it was changing to, but typeless was evidently not overwritten here. Did the same thing again without Revelation Dance, and got the same result:


Then I did the same thing without "changing" to a Flying type first, and got the same result:


Then I thought, what if your type 2 is typeless, does Protean still activate with no message when you use a type 1 attack? Yes:



As you saw earlier, Protean will not activate again if you keep using the same type attack again after having it activate with no message. As far as I can tell, it begins activating the first time because the game knows you currently have more than one type, but then fails to display the message about what type it's changing you to because it's the same type you already are. Burn Up, then Forest's Curse into typeless/Flying/Grass, then Protean does in fact show the message, presumably because you now have at least two types, one of which is not typeless.

tl;dr None of this is really useful information, just interesting mechanics.

Then, in this battle, https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-689183458 turns 4 , 9, 12 and 15 are correct according to the original game(cart), right?? Just confirming.
 

Marty

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Then, in this battle, https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-689183458 turns 4 , 9, 12 and 15 are correct according to the original game(cart), right?? Just confirming.
No, not at all; it's currently implemented wrong on PS precisely because of the post I quoted above. Revelation Dance will never be typeless if the user is also partly some other type. In the games, on Turn 4 it would be Ground type and every other turn you mentioned would be Normal type.
 
No, not at all; it's currently implemented wrong on PS precisely because of the post I quoted above. Revelation Dance will never be typeless if the user is also partly some other type. In the games, on Turn 4 it would be Ground type and every other turn you mentioned would be Normal type.
But, I meant, only in the matter of not change the type of Smeargle(not the Revelation Dance). It does not change type of Smeargle in the PS is ok(in these turns 4,9,12 and 15)?Without considering the type of revelation dance movement.
 

Marty

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But, I meant, only in the matter of not change the type of Smeargle(not the Revelation Dance). It does not change type of Smeargle in the PS is ok(in these turns 4,9,12 and 15)?Without considering the type of revelation dance movement.
Oh, then technically yes, but only because it thinks typeless is not a type you can change to. Once Revelation Dance is fixed, Protean will behave wrong in that situation without another fix.
 

Marty

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Double posting because this is big news! The base critical hit rate changed in Gen 7: Kaphotics confirms the findings. Thanks, Kaphotics!

Edit: Seen a lot of questions about this already so I might as well answer here: I implemented this and hotpatched Showdown mere minutes after posting; it's live!
 
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Double posting because this is big news! The base critical hit rate changed in Gen 7: Kaphotics confirms the findings. Thanks, Kaphotics!
So this means "Super Luck + Move with higher chance to crit" is no longer a guaranteed crit, right?

Seeing that's quite the gimmick (instead of, say, Z-Tailwind + Move with higher chance to crit or Focus Energy + Scope Lens, which are unaffected by this), it's no wonder it went unnoticed all this time.

(And I thought it was perfectly normal that my Braviary could only crit half the time with Return after a Z-Tailwind while fighting Team Rainbow Rocket, compared to Slash always critting. I thought it was already the case in Gen VI so I didn't find it strange)
 
The only critical odds that changed were the odds for +0 stages, i.e. there's no help from the move, item, or ability. Slash by itself is 1/8 chance in both 6 and 7, it's just that now that represents triple the chance of getting a critical that Tackle has, as opposed to just double.

Super Luck, Slash-style moves, and Scope Lens are all worth +1 each, and it takes +3 to get to "guaranteed critical" range, so you'd need all three of them active at once to have that guarantee. Focus Energy, the Z effect of Acupressure/Foresight/Heart Swap/Sleep Talk/Tailwind, a consumed Lansat Berry, or Lucky Punch/Stick (on their respective "right" holders) are all +2 effects, so any one of those plus any of the ways to get a single +1 will also be enough.
 
Anyone know why it took so long to figure this out? Because if this is a change that was present for all of Gen VII so far, I figure someone would have noticed shortly after SM came out, instead of a few months after USUM came out.
 

Merritt

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Anyone know why it took so long to figure this out? Because if this is a change that was present for all of Gen VII so far, I figure someone would have noticed shortly after SM came out, instead of a few months after USUM came out.
At a guess, it's because crits seemed completely unchanged at a glance (higher stage crit chances were unchanged) so nobody really went looking and it's not something that'd immediately stand out just from playing - 4.16% vs 6.25% isn't so drastic a change that people would notice in particular, they're both fairly unlikely but not overwhelmingly unlikely.

Keep in mind that relatively obscure stuff pops up from time to time much later than you'd expect - for example the Sleep Talk mechanics in gen III weren't discovered until 9 years after gen IV released.
 
i'd say the best example of this was RBY players finding out that body slam couldn't ever paralyze normal-type pokemon. on paper, it seems like someone should have noticed that this common typing was never getting paralyzed in-game earlier than 2014--but in practice, it's a mechanic based on chance, and because that means there was a chance you've simply been getting a string bad rolls, people likely just assumed that they weren't getting lucky.

luck-based mechanics can very easily distort your perception of how they work, and i wouldn't be surprised in the slightest if people start using this as a reason to believe a lot of other things have a higher/lower chance, even if they're objectively unchanged
 
Hey, i checked out one of Verlisify's fan Friday videos recently and saw an interesting doubles pickup flinch team, so decided to try it out, showcased here:

However in showdown doubles this mechanic doesn't seem to work, being where only my ambipom's pickup activates at the end of the turn and not for the linoone, shown here at turn 4: https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7battlespotdoubles-695735105

Due to it acting differently to cartridge gameplay I'm going to be assume it's an error on the coding of pickup in showdown, and should be fixed. I don't think I did anything wrong in the strategy, however if I somehow did please inform me, thanks.
 
The only time Verlis has actually helped us out lol
Indeed, I think PS has some error that prevents Pickup being avtivated twice on the same turn on the same side of the field. I once tested a strategy like this out on cartridge in the Battle Tree and it seemed to work there.
 

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