Data Pokemon Sun/Moon Battle Mechanics Research

Here are two facts that I think I know. Can you guys confirm them?

When dancer calls a move that targets another Pokemon, it targets a random opponent and never targets an ally.
When a Pokemon uses a move that calls another move, the last move used is set to the "caller move" and not the "callee move". For example, if a Pokemon is encored after using tri attack though using nature power, then it gets locked into nature power and not tri attack.
 
Sorry if these questions have already been asked.
  1. If a Flying-type is holding an Iron Ball and Grassy Terrain is in effect, will said Flying-type heal from the effects of Grassy Terrain?
  2. Does a user of Feint take damage, lose 2 Attack stages, or become poisoned if it hits a Pokemon who used Spiky Shield, King's Shield or Baneful Bunker, while hitting the "Protector" and breaking it afterwards?
  3. If a Magic Bounce Pokemon uses Leech Seed, but the target Pokemon used Magic Coat that turn, will Leech Seed affect a Pokemon, and if so, who?
    1. What happens if both Pokemon have Magic Bounce?
Does a user of Feint take damage, lose 2 Attack stages, or become poisoned if it hits a Pokemon who used Spiky Shield, King's Shield or Baneful Bunker, while hitting the "Protector" and breaking it afterwards?
 
If Ho-oh/Talonflame/any other fire-flying Pokemon holds Iron Ball and uses Burn Up (assume Balanced Hackmons), are they typeless?
(Question above) - What if they used Burn Up, and then Roosted? Would they be typeless then?
 

Kris

everybody dies in their nightmares
is a Smogon Social Media Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis a Smogon Media Contributor
If Ho-oh/Talonflame/any other fire-flying Pokemon holds Iron Ball and uses Burn Up (assume Balanced Hackmons), are they typeless?
(Question above) - What if they used Burn Up, and then Roosted? Would they be typeless then?
Iron Ball doesn't remove Flying typing, it just grounds the holder, similar to how Smack Down and Thousand Arrows ground the target.

If they are pure Flying type and use Roost, they become ??? type for the turn.

Sorry if these questions have already been asked.
  1. If a Flying-type is holding an Iron Ball and Grassy Terrain is in effect, will said Flying-type heal from the effects of Grassy Terrain?
  2. Does a user of Feint take damage, lose 2 Attack stages, or become poisoned if it hits a Pokemon who used Spiky Shield, King's Shield or Baneful Bunker, while hitting the "Protector" and breaking it afterwards?
  3. If a Magic Bounce Pokemon uses Leech Seed, but the target Pokemon used Magic Coat that turn, will Leech Seed affect a Pokemon, and if so, who?
    1. What happens if both Pokemon have Magic Bounce?
Does a user of Feint take damage, lose 2 Attack stages, or become poisoned if it hits a Pokemon who used Spiky Shield, King's Shield or Baneful Bunker, while hitting the "Protector" and breaking it afterwards?
  1. Any grounded Pokemon in Grassy Terrain receives the healing effect. So a Pokemon could be holding Iron Ball to be grounded, or it could be grounded by another move.
  2. No.
  3. The last target of Leech Seed is the target. So if a Magic Bounce user uses Leech Seed but it's deflected by Magic Coat or Magic Bounce from the foe, the initial user is seeded.

e @ Merritt : its a fast paced game and ur just too slow
 
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Iron Ball doesn't remove Flying typing, it just grounds the holder, similar to how Smack Down and Thousand Arrows ground the target.

If they are pure Flying type and use Roost, they become ??? type for the turn.


  1. Any grounded Pokemon in Grassy Terrain receives the healing effect. So a Pokemon could be holding Iron Ball to be grounded, or it could be grounded by another move.
  2. No.
  3. The last target of Leech Seed is the target. So if a Magic Bounce user uses Leech Seed but it's deflected by Magic Coat or Magic Bounce from the foe, the initial user is seeded.

e @ below: its a fast paced game and ur just too slow
Thank you.
 

Kris

everybody dies in their nightmares
is a Smogon Social Media Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis a Smogon Media Contributor
Just so you know, this only applies to flying type Pokemon that became pure flying type by using burn up. Pokemon that are pure flying type to start will become normal type after using roost.
i didnt include that because that wasnt what the questions were implying, i knew that already.
 
I did more research on Speed, particularly in relation to fainted Speed order recognition. In my last bit of research, I derived the Speed calculation formula to be equivalent to this:

floor(pokeRound(floor(x*boosts/drops)*everythingElse)*para)

Since it had been a while since I derived it, I did a couple proofs of concept to make sure I didn't go crazy the first time.

-3 Paralyzed Choice Scarf Bulbasaur with 107 Speed affected by Tailwind and Pledge Swamp
floor(pokeRound(floor(107*2/5)*1.5*2*0.25)*0.5)

= floor(pokeRound(floor(42.8)*1.5*2*0.25)*0.5)
= floor(pokeRound(42*1.5*2*0.25)*0.5)
= floor(pokeRound(31.5)*0.5)
= floor(31*0.5)
= floor(15.5)
=15

As expected, this Bulbasaur Speed tied with another Pokemon that also had 15 Speed.

-4 Paralyzed Iron Ball Bulbasaur with 107 Speed with Chlorophyll boost
floor(pokeRound(floor(107*1/3)*0.5*2)*0.5)

= floor(pokeRound(floor(35.6666)*0.5*2)*0.5)
= floor(pokeRound(35*0.5*2)*0.5)
= floor(35*0.5)
= floor(17.5)
=17

Again, as expected, this Bulbasaur Speed tied with another Pokemon that also had 17 Speed.

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Fainted Speed Order Recognition

When two or more Pokemon faint during the same turn, their replacements are sent out using the Speed order of each fainted Pokemon, not the Speed of the replacement Pokemon. For example, suppose Deoxys-Speed and Shuckle fainted in the same turn. The players decide to send in Slowbro to replace Deoxys-Speed, and Pheromosa to replace Shuckle. These Pokémon would be sent out in the order of Slowbro, then Pheromosa, because Deoxys-Speed was faster than Shuckle. Afterwards, things like Stealth Rocks or Ability activation order (e.g. Intimidate) will once again reveal Speed order of the replacement Pokemon. It's important to know that it doesn't matter in what order or by what means the Pokemon fainted, just that they fainted. This is notably impactful in Doubles play as another method of determining Speed, especially in team locked best-of-three play. Fainted Speed order recognition in general has been known about for a while now, and it was at least partially implemented on PS sometime late last year iirc. Notably, some modifiers for Speed apply for the purposes of fainted Speed order recognition, and some don't. When talking about this with Marty, he mentioned that the Pokecheck guys noted this back when they did their Gen 5 battle disassembly, but there wasn't much more data out there than that. Here are some examples to understand fainted Speed order recognition conceptually:

Singles example:
  1. The opposing faster Landorus-T uses Explosion and knocks out my slower Clefable.
  2. My opponent sends in slower Tapu Fini, then I send in faster Tapu Koko (this is the mechanic, fainted Speed order recognition is based on Landorus's and Clefable's Speed).
  3. Tapu Koko's Electric Surge activates, then Tapu Fini's Misty Surge activates.
Doubles example:
  1. Speed order: opponent's Landorus-T > my Mega Charizard Y > my Heatran > opponent's Tyranitar
  2. The opposing Landorus-T uses Z-Earthquake to KO Heatran. My Mega Charizard Y uses Overheat to KO opponent's Landorus-T. Opponent's Tyranitar uses Rock Slide to KO Mega Charizard Y.
  3. My opponent sends in Tapu Fini (for Landorus-T), then I send in Amoonguss (for Charizard), then I send in Cresselia (for Heatran).
Here are the results of my tests (skip below for the summary).

I did all of my testing on USUM version 1.2.
First round of tests: Staraptor 1 has 150 Speed, Staraptor 2 has 151 Speed

1) Choice Scarf (does not affect)
Staraptor 1 holds Choice Scarf with 150 Speed, Final Gambits Staraptor 2 with 151 Speed. Replacement was in order of Staraptor 2, then Staraptor 1.

2) Stat boosts (does not affect)
Staraptor 1 is at +2 Speed from Agility with 150 Speed, Final Gambits Staraptor 2 with 151 Speed. Replacement was in order of Staraptor 2, then Staraptor 1.

3) Tailwind (affects)
  • Staraptor 1 is under the effects of Tailwind with 150 Speed, Final Gambits Staraptor 2 with 151 Speed. Replacement was in order of Staraptor 1, then Staraptor 2.
  • Also tested: same situation, but Tailwind expires on this turn before the next Pokémon is replaced. Replacement was in order of Staraptor 2, then Staraptor 1.
Second round of tests: Staraptor 1 has 151 Speed, Staraptor 2 has 150 Speed
4) Iron Ball (does not affect)
Staraptor 1 holds Iron Ball with 151 Speed, Final Gambits Staraptor 2 with 150 Speed. Replacement was in order of Staraptor 1, then Staraptor 2.

5) Power items (does not affect)
Staraptor 1 holds Power Lens with 151 Speed, Final Gambits Staraptor 2 with 150 Speed. Replacement was in order of Staraptor 1, then Staraptor 2.

6) Paralysis (does not affect)
Staraptor 1 is paralyzed with 151 Speed, Final Gambits Staraptor 2 with 150 Speed. Replacement was in order of Staraptor 1, then Staraptor 2.

7) Stat drops (does not affect)
Staraptor 1 is at -1 Speed from Electroweb with 151 Speed, Final Gambits Staraptor 2 with 150 Speed. Replacement was in order of Staraptor 1, then Staraptor 2.

8) Pledge Swamp (affects)
  • Staraptor 1 is under the effects of Pledge Swamp in a Double Battle with 151 Speed, Final Gambits Staraptor 2 with 150 Speed. Replacement was in order of Staraptor 2, then Staraptor 1.
  • Also tested: same situation, but Pledge Swamp expires on this turn before the next Pokémon is replaced. Replacement was in order of Staraptor 1, then Staraptor 2.
Third round of tests: various Pokémon because I needed different modifiers
9) Chlorophyll / Swift Swim / Sand Rush / Slush Rush / Surge Surfer (does not affect)
Staraptor with 150 Speed uses Final Gambit on these Pokemon in their appropriate Speed doubling conditions.

Alolan Sandslash – 100 Speed (Staraptor replaced first)
Kantonian Sandslash – 100 Speed (Staraptor replaced first)
Surksit – 100 Speed (Staraptor replaced first)
Jumpluff – 130 Speed (Staraptor replaced first)
Raichu-Alola – 130 Speed (Staraptor replaced first)

10) Unburden (does not affect)
Staraptor with 150 Speed uses Final Gambit on 102 Speed Slurpuff with Unburden active. Replacement was in order of Staraptor, then Slurpuff.

11) Quick Feet (does not affect)
Staraptor with 150 Speed uses Final Gambit on Mightyena with 120 Speed affected by Quick Feet. Replacement was in order of Staraptor, then Mightyena.

12) Quick Powder Ditto (does not affect)
Staraptor with 150 Speed uses Final Gambit on non-Transformed Ditto with 102 Speed holding Quick Powder. Replacement was in order of Staraptor, then Ditto.

13) Slow Start (does not affect)
Staraptor with 150 Speed uses Final Gambit on Regigigas with 160 Speed affected by Slow Start. Replacement was in order of Regigigas, then Staraptor.

Fourth round of tests: changing the Pokémon's Speed stat by non-modifier means

14) Trick Room (affects)
  • Staraptor with 151 Speed uses Final Gambit on Electrode with 220 Speed in Trick Room. Replacement was in order of Staraptor, then Electrode.
  • Staraptor with 151 Speed uses Final Gambit on Raichu with 130 Speed as Trick Room is intentionally reversed. Replacement was in order of Staraptor, then Raichu.
  • Staraptor with 151 Speed uses Final Gambit on Raichu with 130 Speed as Trick Room naturally ends. Replacement was in order of Staraptor, then Raichu.
15) Using Speed Swap (affects)
Smeargle with 139 Speed uses Speed Swap on opposing 150 Speed Staraptor. Staraptor uses Final Gambit on Smeargle. Replacement was in order of Smeargle, then Staraptor.

16) Transform (does not affect)
Smeargle with 139 Speed Transforms into Electrode with 220 Speed. Staraptor with 150 Speed uses Final Gambits on Smeargle. Replacement was in order of Staraptor, then Smeargle.

17) Fainted Forme regression (does not affect) (see notes below in this post)
  • Megas – Metagross with 134 Speed prior to Mega Evolution, 178 Speed post-Mega vs 150 Speed Staraptor (Metagross replaced first)
  • Ultra Necrozma – Dusk Mane with 129 Speed prior to Ultra Burst, 181 as Ultra Necrozma vs 150 Speed Staraptor (Necrozma replaced first)
  • Zygarde – 50% with 115 Speed, Complete with 105 Speed; 112 Speed Pokémon (112 Speed Pokémon replaced first, then Zygarde)
  • Darmanitan – Normal Mode with 110 Speed, 70 Speed in Zen Mode; 102 Speed Pokémon (102 Speed Pokémon replaced first, then Darmanitan)
  • Meloetta – 121 Speed in Aria Forme, 162 Speed in Piroutte Forme; 151 Speed Pokémon (Meloetta replaced first, then 151 Speed Pokémon)
  • Greninja – 174 Speed prior to Transform, 184 Speed post-Ash-Greninja; 178 Speed Pokémon (Greninja replaced first, then 178 Speed)
  • Wishiwashi – 51 Speed in Solo, 41 Speed in Schooling; 42 Speed Pokémon (42 Speed Pokémon replaced first, then Wishiwashi)
  • Minior – 146 Speed in Core, 80 Speed in Meteor; 102 Speed Pokémon (102 Speed Pokémon replaced first, then Minior)
As a summary, it appears only Tailwind and Pledge Swamp exist as modifiers to fainted Speed order recognition (abbreviated now as FSOR). Notably, they do not affect FSOR on the final turn of their effects; that is, the turn where the message "Tailwind petered out!" shows. This would imply FSOR is calculated at some point after the usual end-of-turn effects. Trick Room reverses the order of replacement, as expected. For some reason, changing a raw Speed stat with Speed Swap also impacts FSOR, where the Speed Swapped stat is treated as that Pokemon's actual Speed. It appears that:
  • FSOR only uses the actual raw Speed stat in its calculations, excluding all modifiers except field conditions Tailwind, Pledge Swamp, and Trick Room.
  • FSOR must store the Pokemon's Speed stat temporarily at some time, as it needs to be able to conserve Speed prior to Forme regression (like in the case of Megas), but also not include the field conditions if they are ending on that turn (like in the case of Tailwind).
EDIT: Just to be clear, if two Pokemon Speed tie, FSOR is determined in the same way a Speed tie would be determined (50/50 chance).
*******************************
Fainted Forme Regression

The 17th test from my FSOR tests is related to a mechanic I'd like to call "fainted Forme regression". Basically, if a Pokémon can achieve a different in-battle forme change, when it faints, it returns to whatever is considered its "base forme". For example, if Greninja has transformed into Ash-Greninja and faints, it does not remain fainted as Ash-Greninja, but instead remains fainted as regular Greninja. You can easily verify this in the summary screen after a Pokemon faints. This applies to other in-battle formes as well, including Mega Evolution, Ultra Burst with Necrozma, and Power Construct with Zygarde. I assume this is done so that the in-game player can't just spam Max Revives to infinitely heal their Mega Blaziken or Ultra Necrozma or something.
  • Mega Evolutions – Mega Evolutions regress to their base Pokémon
    [*]Ultra Necrozma – Ultra Necrozma regresses to whatever it Ultra Bursted from, either Dusk Mane or Dawn Wings Necrozma
    [*]Primal Reversion – Primal Groudon / Primal Kyogre regress to normal Groudon / Kyogre
    [*]Zygarde: Zygarde Complete Forme regresses to whatever it Power Constructed from, either Zygarde 50% or Zygarde 10%
    [*]Darmanitan: Zen Mode regresses to Standard Mode
    [*]Meloetta: Piroutte Forme regresses to Aria Forme
    [*]Greninja: Ash-Greninja regresses to regular Greninja
    [*]Wishiwashi – School Form regresses to Solo Form
    [*]Minior – Meteor Form regresses to Core Form
    [*]Castform – any of its weather-induced forms regresses to its Normal form
    [*]Cherrim – Sunshine Form regresses to Overcast Form
    [*]Aegislash – Blade Forme regresses to Shield Forme
All other Pokemon do not undergo fainted Forme regression. Here are a few that I tested explicitly:
  • Sky Forme Shaymin - a Sky Forme Shaymin that gets frozen and becomes Land Forme Shaymin does not regress to Sky Forme Shaymin. Additionally, if Sky Forme Shaymin faints normally, it remains as Sky Forme Shaymin.
    [*]Giratina
    [*]Arceus
    [*]Silvally
    [*]Genesect
Showdown currently does not revert Mega Evolutions and the like to their base formes as this mechanic shows they should do. It's no big deal, because as far as I can tell, the only competitive implication of fainted Forme regression is HP-based tiebreakers with Zygarde's formes, but that would only affect niche situations in live VGC tournament play where Zygarde is allowed. This thread doesn't consider the competitive applications of research, in any case.
 
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Battle evolution after transforming: possible under any of these following situations?
  • kangaskhan holding kangaskhanite, transformed into magikarp
  • kangaskhan holding absolite, transformed into absol
  • mewtwo holding mewtwonite y, transformed into mega mewtwo x
  • wings necrozma holding ultranecrozmium, transformed into mane necrozma
  • wings necrozma holding ultranecrozmium, transformed into base necrozma
 

Kris

everybody dies in their nightmares
is a Smogon Social Media Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis a Smogon Media Contributor
Battle evolution after transforming: possible under any of these following situations?
  • kangaskhan holding kangaskhanite, transformed into magikarp
  • kangaskhan holding absolite, transformed into absol
  • mewtwo holding mewtwonite y, transformed into mega mewtwo x
  • wings necrozma holding ultranecrozmium, transformed into mane necrozma
  • wings necrozma holding ultranecrozmium, transformed into base necrozma
they get the same stats they normally get....
 
Can someone explain to me the interaction between Transform and Shields Down a little more?

"If a Pokémon other than Minior obtains Shields Down with Imposter or Transform, the Pokémon will not change forms and will not be immune to status conditions (even if it transformed into Meteor Form Minior)."

that just sounds very weird to me, even bug-like. I realize it's a super exclusive ability that ignores most ability modifiers (like Battle Bond) but why does it not work correctly when being transformed?
 
Can someone explain to me the interaction between Transform and Shields Down a little more?

"If a Pokémon other than Minior obtains Shields Down with Imposter or Transform, the Pokémon will not change forms and will not be immune to status conditions (even if it transformed into Meteor Form Minior)."

that just sounds very weird to me, even bug-like. I realize it's a super exclusive ability that ignores most ability modifiers (like Battle Bond) but why does it not work correctly when being transformed?
It checks the base species. If the base species is not Minior, it doesn't work, even if the Pokemon is transformed into Minior.

It's not the only instance of something like this happening in the game. For example, in Balanced Hackmons, Lucky Punch Imposter Chansey works because Lucky Punch only checks that the base species is Chansey, regardless of what it transformed into (then again, it's Hackmons, so it's probably something Game Freak never bothered to check because Chansey can't Transform; the same happens with Eviolite as the Pokemon that can learn Transform cannot evolve).
 
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DaWoblefet

Demonstrably so
is a Pokemon Researcher
A Pokemon whose ability becomes Truant after it mega evolves but before it gets a chance to use a move that turn (either with Alakazam's Trace, or Durant using Entrainment) will indeed use that first turn to loaf around, probably under the philosophy that the mega evolution was its successful action.
This came up again for me recently, and I'm stumped as to why it would happen this way, or what about Mega Evolution is causing Truant to assume a turn's been taken. The same behavior is present in ORAS, where Mega Evolving Salamence -> Truant Durant uses Entrainment on Mega Salamence -> Mega Salamence is loafing around, so it's not because of some Speed-based interaction. A test in USUM of LightningRod absorbing Thunder Wave -> Durant Entrainment resulted in the Pokemon NOT loafing around, so it doesn't appear to be because the Ability was updated after taking an action either. Moreover, Mega Evolution does not affect the turn count for sleep turns, when you can use Fake Out, etc.; only Truant is doing this, and it's bizarre why it would even account for this post-Mega Evolution. Ordinarily even if the target took an action before receiving Truant, it doesn't immediately loaf around on the following turn.
 
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This came up again for me recently, and I'm stumped as to why it would happen this way, or what about Mega Evolution is causing Truant to assume a turn's been taken. The same behavior is present in ORAS, where Mega Evolving Salamence -> Truant Durant uses Entrainment on Mega Salamence -> Mega Salamence is loafing around, so it's not because of some Speed-based interaction. A test in USUM of LightningRod absorbing Thunder Wave -> Durant Entrainment resulted in the Pokemon NOT loafing around, so it doesn't appear to be because the Ability was updated after taking an action either. Moreover, Mega Evolution does not affect the turn count for sleep turns, when you can use Fake Out, etc.; only Truant is doing this, and it's bizarre why. Ordinarily even if the target took an action before receiving Truant, it doesn't immediately loaf around on the following turn.
Perhaps it's related to the form change? It's the only thing that comes up to my head.

The only other possible test subject could be... Cherrim, perhaps, not counting hacked mons?
 

DaWoblefet

Demonstrably so
is a Pokemon Researcher
Perhaps it's related to the form change? It's the only thing that comes up to my head.

The only other possible test subject could be... Cherrim, perhaps, not counting hacked mons?
Good suggestion, but it didn't behave like the Megas.
Sunny Day (Cherrim transforms) -> Durant Entrainment on Cherrim (Cherrim reverts back) -> Cherrim is NOT loafing around.
Cherrim already in Sunshine form from previous turn -> Durant Entrainment on Cherrim (Cherrim reverts back) -> Cherrim is NOT loafing around.
 

duck

Let me think!
is a Battle Server Moderator
Good suggestion, but it didn't behave like the Megas.
Sunny Day (Cherrim transforms) -> Durant Entrainment on Cherrim (Cherrim reverts back) -> Cherrim is NOT loafing around.
Cherrim already in Sunshine form from previous turn -> Durant Entrainment on Cherrim (Cherrim reverts back) -> Cherrim is NOT loafing around.
but that is ability dependent. try something that doesn't work with its ability. Like what happen if a shaymin sky acquire truant, then get frozen and rever to shaymin normal and then thaw? Will it be able to attack?
 
but that is ability dependent. try something that doesn't work with its ability. Like what happen if a shaymin sky acquire truant, then get frozen and rever to shaymin normal and then thaw? Will it be able to attack?
Shaymin changes ability when it changes form, though, so wouldnt the entrainment have to be after (but before it attacks)? could happen with luck in doubles battle ig.
 

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