Pokemon Sword & Shield Discussion RD: 15/11/2019

If I have to argue it, while Steel as Luster Cannon, it is the only light-based attack of that type that I can think of (and maybe few more I have missed) while everythin else damaging is about hitting your opponent with chunk of steel (Iron Head, Iron Tail, etc), which is what Steel is good at in doing away Ice.
Fairy, however, does have more attacks themed around lights. Now this actually makes more sense if they make Ice resist Fairy.
Fairy has the same number of light moves as steel (dazzling gleam, light of ruin, and moonlight compared to mirror shot, flash cannon, and doom desire). The difference is that Fairy has other options (e.g. moonblast), but every special steel move is light-based. Whether the special side should override the physical side in type match-ups is up for debate, but I would use Steel for when a 'light-type' is thematic but unavailible (and I belive it has been used for both Jirachi and Solgaleo)

Side note: other types with light based moves are grass (2, solarbeam and solarblade), normal (3, flash, spotlight and morning sun), ghost (1, moongeist beam) and psychic (3 or 5, luster purge, photon geyser, and prismatic laser, plus the possibility of light screen and reflect)
 
Also, finally watching a Dynamax battle in action... I am not the least bit impressed. It BARELY changes the battle it feels.
I like that, honestly. It feels like we're going back to gen 4 or 5 in terms of battle dynamics.

The major impact of Dynamax, I feel, will be to make reactive play more viable and thus make proactive play less important.

A major problem with OU play has been matchup dependence: too many of the important decisions are made before the battle starts, to the extent that a lot of matches are either decided at team preview or decided when one player incorrectly predicts which of a million possible sets a certain threat is using. By the time you actually know what the opponent's strategy is, it's often too late to stop it. Z-moves made this a lot worse by giving top-tier threats a whole array of ways to muscle past things that would normally be good answers. With Dynamax, decisions which are currently made during teambuilding (which Pokemon you're gonna use as your ace, how you're going to deal with specific threats) can be more feasibly made during play.

The lack of an item restriction is important for this, because items (and consequently megas and Z-moves) have to be chosen before play whereas your choice of Dynamax doesn't. Dynamax being at a lower power level is partly a result of this -- you can't have the mechanic be as powerful as megas or Z-moves if there isn't as big a cost associated with using it. But Dynamax's power level also benefits a more reactive play style, because it doesn't usually have enough raw power to be worth building your whole team around. Conversely, if you do decide to build around it, your opponent won't be as locked in to their strategy at team preview, and will thus have more options to counter whatever it is you're doing. (It's probably not a coincidence that every Dynamax move is cancelled out by another Dynamax move.)

I see three things that are made less potent by Dynamax:

1) Powerful setup sweepers. The defensive buff from Dynamax looks to generally be stronger than the offensive buff and you can't use status moves other than whatever Max Guard does, so a battle between two Dynamaxed Pokemon will be slower than current battles. That and the HP buffer generally make it harder for a setup sweeper to just OHKO your whole team, and certain Dynamax moves can directly reduce your opponent's stats or buff your defences to stop their momentum cold too.

Sure, there will be some Max moves which give offensive buffs, but they'll take time to accumulate and will be limited to certain types (and potentially stopped by immunities). I for one will be glad to see less games where a Pokemon gets one free turn, uses Extreme Geomancy Bellydance and then instantly TPKs the opponent.

2) Weather/terrain abilities. With so many Dynamax mons being able to change weather or terrain on the fly, that both gives you more options for setting the field effect and more options for your opponent to get rid of it. Weather and terrain abilities have completely dominated every meta they exist in with relatively little counterplay unless you've really prepared for it or are using a weather/terrain of your own, so this is a welcome change.

3) Constantly switching. Once you've Dynamaxed, you're committed, because switching out while Dynamaxed wastes your remaining turns of it. I'm undecided on whether this is a good thing or a bad thing.

I'll admit that the mechanical utility doesn't really match up with the aesthetic Dynamax has going on, but I guess that's easy for me to overlook because I much prefer the current implementation to the idea of a mechanic which is basically "you can use three Z-moves in a row and they're even more OP than before". Personally, my biggest annoyance with Dynamax is that some Max Moves are just clearly better than others, in a way that so far doesn't really seem designed to balance the types.
 
Fairy has the same number of light moves as steel (dazzling gleam, light of ruin, and moonlight compared to mirror shot, flash cannon, and doom desire). The difference is that Fairy has other options (e.g. moonblast), but every special steel move is light-based. Whether the special side should override the physical side in type match-ups is up for debate, but I would use Steel for when a 'light-type' is thematic but unavailible (and I belive it has been used for both Jirachi and Solgaleo)

Side note: other types with light based moves are grass (2, solarbeam and solarblade), normal (3, flash, spotlight and morning sun), ghost (1, moongeist beam) and psychic (3 or 5, luster purge, photon geyser, and prismatic laser, plus the possibility of light screen and reflect)
Moonblast looks like it'd fit light-element attack in other RPGs, while again, there's physical Steel attacks which is just good in doing away Ice realistically. There's problem with other things like Fairy Wind or Charming Voice, but I think that it'd somewhat fit lore-wise too ice doesn't seem to be friendly to fairy creatures (the only ice fairy things I can think of is Elsa/Snow Queen (barely) and Cirno (rather modern depiction) and Jack Frost and few obscure folklores (the only genuine ice-themed fairy folklore I can think), it's relatively uncommon compared to other depictions of fairies). Not to mention giving little nerf to Fairies.

Then again, if they can do something like Fighting resisting Bug which I still wonder until now, almost anything is fair game....
 
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I genuinely hope that do something with Aegislash, it is literally perfect in thematically introducing some sort of concept.

They knew how to make Exeggutor an Alolan form for the sake of how islands are perfect for larger palm trees, and coconut trees.

Seriously, Aegislash needs a Lore role in these games.

As for Nessa, even though the demo set everything to level 50, it may be a sign that they improved the difficulty of gyms. I remember when Elite 4 and Champion Trainers capped in the low 50s.

We need to have the gyms improve 10 levels per gym starting at level 20-90 and then max out to level 100 for the elite 4.

If they really want us to believe this regions champion is undefeated we better see him as a challenge.
 
So, um, I decided to watch the battle with Gym Leader Nessa when I noticed something which debunks a major theory we have:
...
Looking at the video you posted I realized that I'm not just indifferent to Dynamax, I kind of hate it.
Aesthetically, the garish magenta glow each obese Pokemon gets - regardless of existing color scheme - is unappealing, IMO.
I think it's the worst form change concept GF has ever thought up (and they usually do a pretty good job with that).

My favorite new Pokemon is Drednaw.
But I think it looks bad dynamaxed because the magenta glow clashes with its color scheme.
The Pokemon already has its own gravitational field so we'll know it's dynamaxed; they didn't need a glow.
But if they wanted a glow it should've been whitish with perhaps a *tinge* of another color (that could even change to match the Pokemon's dominant color).

EDIT:
I just thought for a moment that it's funny that in Pokemon (i.e pocket monsters) we now have HUGE Planetmon as the next big feature and can only "catch some of 'em" instead of "catch 'em all". lol.
It kind of demonstrates how far they're straying when names and slogans no longer apply.
 
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I like that, honestly. It feels like we're going back to gen 4 or 5 in terms of battle dynamics.

The major impact of Dynamax, I feel, will be to make reactive play more viable and thus make proactive play less important.

A major problem with OU play has been matchup dependence: too many of the important decisions are made before the battle starts, to the extent that a lot of matches are either decided at team preview or decided when one player incorrectly predicts which of a million possible sets a certain threat is using. By the time you actually know what the opponent's strategy is, it's often too late to stop it. Z-moves made this a lot worse by giving top-tier threats a whole array of ways to muscle past things that would normally be good answers. With Dynamax, decisions which are currently made during teambuilding (which Pokemon you're gonna use as your ace, how you're going to deal with specific threats) can be more feasibly made during play.

The lack of an item restriction is important for this, because items (and consequently megas and Z-moves) have to be chosen before play whereas your choice of Dynamax doesn't. Dynamax being at a lower power level is partly a result of this -- you can't have the mechanic be as powerful as megas or Z-moves if there isn't as big a cost associated with using it. But Dynamax's power level also benefits a more reactive play style, because it doesn't usually have enough raw power to be worth building your whole team around. Conversely, if you do decide to build around it, your opponent won't be as locked in to their strategy at team preview, and will thus have more options to counter whatever it is you're doing. (It's probably not a coincidence that every Dynamax move is cancelled out by another Dynamax move.)

I see three things that are made less potent by Dynamax:

1) Powerful setup sweepers. The defensive buff from Dynamax looks to generally be stronger than the offensive buff and you can't use status moves other than whatever Max Guard does, so a battle between two Dynamaxed Pokemon will be slower than current battles. That and the HP buffer generally make it harder for a setup sweeper to just OHKO your whole team, and certain Dynamax moves can directly reduce your opponent's stats or buff your defences to stop their momentum cold too.

Sure, there will be some Max moves which give offensive buffs, but they'll take time to accumulate and will be limited to certain types (and potentially stopped by immunities). I for one will be glad to see less games where a Pokemon gets one free turn, uses Extreme Geomancy Bellydance and then instantly TPKs the opponent.

2) Weather/terrain abilities. With so many Dynamax mons being able to change weather or terrain on the fly, that both gives you more options for setting the field effect and more options for your opponent to get rid of it. Weather and terrain abilities have completely dominated every meta they exist in with relatively little counterplay unless you've really prepared for it or are using a weather/terrain of your own, so this is a welcome change.

3) Constantly switching. Once you've Dynamaxed, you're committed, because switching out while Dynamaxed wastes your remaining turns of it. I'm undecided on whether this is a good thing or a bad thing.

I'll admit that the mechanical utility doesn't really match up with the aesthetic Dynamax has going on, but I guess that's easy for me to overlook because I much prefer the current implementation to the idea of a mechanic which is basically "you can use three Z-moves in a row and they're even more OP than before". Personally, my biggest annoyance with Dynamax is that some Max Moves are just clearly better than others, in a way that so far doesn't really seem designed to balance the types.
Well, we have yet to know the complete mechanic of Dynamax, but i guess getting rid of Mega Evo and Z Move should get it closer to the old Gen 5.

Im excited about the game honestly, although the possibility of having the Pokemon Home limited kind of make me anxious.
 
Has really no one talked about the dynamax level bar? There seems to be actually 11 Dynamax Levels, ranging from 0 to 10, for each Pokemon, shown in the page displaying stats and abilities. All Pokemon in the demo seemed to have Dynamax Level 0.

180970


I don't know about others, but I feel that a 50% buff in HP and a slight increase in base power for Max Moves are actually quite underwhelming for a phenomenon that increases your Pokemon's size by like 10-fold (I know there are also secondary effects with Max Moves, but still). It is very likely imo that as a Pokemon's Dynamax Level increases, the boosts it gets when Dynamaxed also increase.

My guess is that with each Dynamax Level, a Pokemon will gain an additional 5% buff in HP and an additional 5 base power for Max Moves, so that at maximum level, a Pokemon will have 2x HP instead of 1.5x, and Max Moves will have 50 more base power than what has been shown in the demo. Really hope that there will be no other stat increases.
 
Lunatone and Solrock not being in Sun/Moon flashbacks
Honestly I wouldn't be surprised if Aegislash isn't in the game since it doesn't seem like it would work well with dynamax (can't use King's Shield in it and Stance Change probably exacerbates whatever animation issues GF is having) and is one of the most centralizing Pokemon in singles.

Personally, my biggest annoyance with Dynamax is that some Max Moves are just clearly better than others, in a way that so far doesn't really seem designed to balance the types.
And even within types there are gonna be a lot of things that really get the short end of the stick like Dark physical attackers (aka the vast majority of them), slow Flying types (which can't even Roost when dynamaxed), and whatever Poison, Ground, Bug, Fighting, and Dragon types don't have the right type of stats for whatever effect their max move has.
 
This all is not to mention DMax would favour those who can also have wide coverage, and bone the unlucky (let's see, many Grass types, 'Vees, ...). I am hoping that this is deeper than what's currently revealed, as for some of them whose available choices are less, this is locking them for three turns (Z-move only uses 1 turn). The limitations could instead hurt those who rely on setting up or mixed-role 'mon.

On the plus side, maybe Flareon will not suck this time as Fighting Max Move (it can learn Superpower) increases Atk.


Oh, on aside note, it looks like Terrains have less-changing effects than it was? Gen7 had it completely changing the landscape, but now they're just little BG effects. Idk what to say, since while we can attribute that to smear GF again, this actually makes sense as it's supposed to only be effective on the non-flying mons (although that might get put a damper if the changes seen as Corvinight Grassy heal is true all along) and it looks less intrusive than the all-landscape change. It could be better by making special effects like past generations on the grounds, but not the sky....
 
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This all is not to mention DMax would favour those who can also have wide coverage, and bone the unlucky (let's see, many Grass types, 'Vees, ...). I am hoping that this is deeper than what's currently revealed, as for some of them whose available choices are less, this is locking them for three turns (Z-move only uses 1 turn). The limitations could instead hurt those who rely on setting up or mixed-role 'mon.

On the plus side, maybe Flareon will not suck this time as Fighting Max Move (it can learn Superpower) increases Atk.


Oh, on aside note, it looks like Terrains have less-changing effects than it was? Gen7 had it completely changing the landscape, but now they're just little BG effects. Idk what to say, since while we can attribute that to smear GF again, this actually makes sense as it's supposed to only be effective on the non-flying mons (although that might get put a damper if the changes seen as Corvinight Grassy heal is true all along) and it looks less intrusive than the all-landscape change. It could be better by making special effects like past generations on the grounds, but not the sky....
Terrain visual effects are a bit too much in G7 IMO. When fairy terrain and harsh sunlight are up at the same time, it's really hard to notice the latter.
 
What are the odds that Gigantamax is real, gets all the interesting signature moves and completely overshadows Dynamax as a mechanic?
Hmm... like with MegaEvo, I think Gigantamax if real would be limited to select species. Depending on how they carry it out, it can be either just a visual change without any functional change, a slight upgrade as with many species Z-move, or well... break it. We know nothing about Gigantamax and for one they could just pull it that Gigantamax lasts longer or indefinitely (until at least recalled), almost basically MegaEvo in another name and size.

Problem is we don't even know everything about DMax either, unfortunately, like what the bonuses are, what the DMax bar exactly do, effects of many type Max and even Max Guard. I really hope they don't go overboard again like how they exploded the meta during Gen6 with the Megas (they didn't even think MKang will be broken? lolw).
 
Honestly I wouldn't be surprised if Aegislash isn't in the game since it doesn't seem like it would work well with dynamax (can't use King's Shield in it and Stance Change probably exacerbates whatever animation issues GF is having) and is one of the most centralizing Pokemon in singles.



And even within types there are gonna be a lot of things that really get the short end of the stick like Dark physical attackers (aka the vast majority of them), slow Flying types (which can't even Roost when dynamaxed), and whatever Poison, Ground, Bug, Fighting, and Dragon types don't have the right type of stats for whatever effect their max move has.
Why can’t a Flying-type use Roost? Is a Taunt-effect in place when they are Dynamax.
 
Why can’t a Flying-type use Roost? Is a Taunt-effect in place when they are Dynamax.
Dynamax changes ALL status moves (both offensive and defensive) to Max Guard.
While it isn't clear what exactly differentiates Max Guard from Protect, it's clear you don't be able to use setup, recovery or status during those 3 turns.
 
Dynamax changes ALL status moves (both offensive and defensive) to Max Guard.
While it isn't clear what exactly differentiates Max Guard from Protect, it's clear you don't be able to use setup, recovery or status during those 3 turns.
That's actually...kind of intriguing. The only form of recovery currently confirmed for Dynamax mons is through Leftovers/Black Sludge, Berries (Pinch Berries sound broken on Dynamax mons), and Grass-type Dynamax attacks that lay down Grassy Terrain. Dynamax is really serving to be a huge commitment that requires quite a bit of planning before the user makes full use of it. Luckily, the boosted HP should make up for a lack of reliable recovery outside of pinch berries.
 
With the news that Showdown will include all Pokémon out while I do think it’s ultimately great news I do hope we have an unofficial meta game with multiple tiers as a) I love watching actual WiFi battles on YouTube and b) I was starting to look forward to a more watered down back to basics meta game that would probably resemble Black and White a bit more before power creep went insane when Megas were introduced.
 

On GameExplain's discussion, there has been some interesting points, such as a lack of communication on the features, such as giving clear info on what to expect on the features, such as Pokemon Home. Is it an updated Bank? Or is it something like my Pokemon Ranch? The lack of a roadmap is very annoying.

They also pointed out a strong reason why Pokemon games can't be delayed: The Anime and TCG. They constantly features the get new expansions very frequently, and serve as a way for the Pokemon Company to make huge money. Which goes back to why the games can't be delayed : Delays would hurt the revenue of the Anime and TCG, hence why TPC refuses to allow a delay. Kind of Ironic that GF's brander is starting to hurt the quality of games.
 
Now, next year when Pokemon Cut and Run comes out and Growlithe is back in the Dex but Spinda is out you can do another shuffle.

That seems to be the intent behind it.
You need a place to stash your Pokemon permanently because USUM will be the last games to support all extant Pokemon species.
If they're in Home, you'll be able to transfer a subset of them to new generations if they are in that regional Dex.
oh my god this is version exclusives taken to the next level: GENERATION EXCLUSIVES
 

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oh yeah, I have some catching up to do. but hell if this discussion needs to be forced to stop especially when it's relevant to Smogon and will significantly affect the competitive scene

I don't really care for the Dynamax mechanic honestly, it just bores me. It's just fluff.
Well it will be entirely stopped. Considering you've managed to circle back on to again after being told twice to NOT go into the dex stuff (as there is literally nothing to discuss about it right now) then I think it's time we lock the thread again. You're more than welcome to join the OI Discord server to complain about it ( https://discord.gg/KjZuZ7j ). And as discussion is dying down, it's time.

Smogon Admins and Senior Staff are currently discussing what will be happening going forwards. Rest assured, it'll be fine.

If anyone finds any interesting articles on the web etc, feel free to PM me them and we will add them to this post with a little quote or something, to keep track of things going forwards.
 

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