All Gens Pokemon Through the Ages: Flygon

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GSC Bliss is her worst gen of course, but I don't think she is thaaaaaat bad. Granted, free setup for Lax is terrible, but all in all she's a better cleric and Light Screen/Sing are pretty good stuff. Pair up with Vaporeon/Marowak/Drumlax and make things happen.

Was never a fan of ADV Blissey. I always had that impression that I could have won if I used Lax instead of this pinky fat blob but well gotta admit this CMBliss thingy is a pretty nice anti-pokemon nowadays. But I really dislike this post-adv meta so whatever :chaos:

DP Blissey is the best, hands down. You could cripple the fuck out of everything with Thunder Wave coupled with massive brand-new residual damage, I really liked good defensive cores back there.
GSC Bliss is her worst gen of course, but I don't think she is thaaaaaat bad.
She's not. The problem is that Lax's shadow is very, very long, and Lax's omnipresence severely hurts Blissey both through competition for the same switch-ins (Zapdos, Raikou, Starmie, etc.) and by the completely one-sided head-to-head which guarantees Blissey "weak link" status.
No way GSC is the worst generation for Blissey. That would be Gen 5 by a long shot.
Definitely. Even many special attackers can easily beat it now. It's a shame really. But I think people in this thread are referring just up to Gen IV.

For me, I think Gen III was the best for Blissey. If we had usage stats back then I'm sure Blissey would've been #1 (it was in the first ever usage stats we got for Gen IV even, when people were still in the mind-set of the previous generation).

Back then when team-building, you'd want at least one special wall and physical wall on every team. Blissey was nearly always the best choice for special wall, whilst for physical walls there were a few choices. (Most common was Skarmory, but also stuff like Forretress, Weezing, etc. Even some things like Cursepert could fill that role. You have to remember physical Pokemon had much less coverage back then, since all electric, ice, etc. moves were special, so the likes of Weezing, etc. had high defenses and weren't weak to any physical moves, although Fire Blast/Flamethrower were common on some physical sweepers for Skarmory and Forretress.)

When I started playing, Seismic Toss seemed to be by far the most common attacking move on Blissey. It was so popular, that people would willingly invest EVs to get their Pokemon to 404 HP so that their substitutes could survive a Seismic Toss. However, after some time, people started running SubPunch Gengar (switch in on Seismic Toss, Substitute to protect from Thunderwave, and Focus Punch to damage Blissey). That was when using base 95 special moves on Blissey really started becoming the norm, as people realized they could break the Gengar substitutes with Ice Beam, Flamethrower, T-Bolt.

People used to use Focus Punch on special Tyranitar sets as well, which made it very difficult to beat at the time when it could beat the special wall that nearly everybody used. Although, like with Gengar's Focus Punch moveset, that Tyranitar moveset with Focus Punch became THE moveset after a while and people adapted.

I hope Blissey can see more success in Gen VI again, but it doesn't seem likely at this stage.
I don't know if we can discuss gen V, but since the sprite was put up I guess we can.

While I do agree that gen V is probably Blissey's worst generation so far and that it did take a blow, having used it and Chansey extensively in gen V can know its still a pretty solid Pokemon. Although, yeah because of the more offensive metagame, it is a pretty big target, so it needs proper team support to be used correctly, specifically strong defensive support, on not only the physical side, but on the special side of the Pokemon is fails to wall. Its still the special wall though, nothing to be scoffed at.

edit: god damn the sprite was taken down, ignore this post then
CM Blissey didn't really catch on in ADV until after DP came out, really. Nowadays, CM Blissey can actually be threatening if your physical mons are all burned or something, but back then, she didn't really do a whole lot besides Wish or Aromatherapy, except she could often get in for free because special attackers aren't hurting her one bit. Shit, even a fully powered up Suicune can't 2HKO her.

So yeah, lots of people claused her and forfeited if you had Blissey (or SkarmBliss lol), but nowadays she's down to 10-12 range in ADV usage. Still pretty high, but hey - she's great at providing team support! If only she could Wish and Aromatherapy at the same time...
Bringing this back in style~

After 2 solid gens in OU, Raikou wound up in BL in DPP, though it's made a name for itself in the current meta. So, what made Raikou the star it was in GSC and ADV, what held it back in DPP, and what were its best sets, roles, teammates, and counters throughout history?
Raikou was one of the best Pokemon in DPP UU before it went BL but it's always been a strong OU contender as well. In OU, everyone just ran SubCM since that was really its only set (I messed around with Specs and it's pretty strong but Jolteon/Raikou [EDIT: I meant Zapdos/Rotom instead of Raikou lol] are better for the most part), my memories of it in UU are fuzzy but I think it ran SubCM a lot there as well and it was one of the best natural checks to Rain Dance teams. I don't think I ever saw the LO variant that's the first set listed onsite but I played with it for a few games around 3 & 1/2 years ago. It was pretty good at dishing out immediate damage but I never bothered using CM with it because just got revenge killed by everything under the sun (especially because ScarfTar was ridiculously popular back then), which is part of why Sub is so useful on it.

Kou got a shitload of hype when it was revealed it was going to get Aura Sphere, since Tyranitar and to a lesser extent Heatran are pains for it... unfortunately it was locked to a Rash nature so thoughts of CM sweeping with it sort of went out the window but Rash Kou found use with other sets. ScarfKou is probably the most common set nowadays, since it's really strong and it outspeeds +Spe Flygon/Jirachi. The Lum Berry lead with ExtremeSpeed is fun, it does jack shit to stall but it's solid against offense. SubCM is still good and tears apart most FWG teams, especially with Toxic Spikes. I used ChestoRest a few times and it was really cool being able to outstall Blissey. ResTalk CM/Roar is lots of fun as well.

Also you can't talk about Raikou without mentioning Dugtrio, it's an excellent partner in DPP and it's just about mandatory in ADV.
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(I messed around with Specs and it's pretty strong but Jolteon/Raikou are better for the most part)
Specs Raikou > Specs Raikou? You mean Rotom?

Also, Dugtrio is not only a good partner for Raikou, it's also one of the most common ways of checking it, at least in ADV. That's why in ADV, Kou is often used with Pgon2 and something else that is revenged by Dug (e.g. Heracross) so that the duck can trace Arena Trap and give Raikou a lot more breathing room.

As for GSC, Raikou is pretty clearly at least the #3 mon in the game (Zapdos probably beats it out for #2, and of course Snorlax is king of the hill). Meaningless rankings aside, Raikou walls Zapdos (and opposing Raikou) to hell and back, all while actually being able to hurt things (looking at you, useless Blissey), and is also typically the fastest thing in a given GSC match (things like Jolteon and Alakazam that outspeed it are not common), all while being pretty darn bulky in general. Raikou runs either a Sleep Talk set or a Roar set. The latter is really dangerous with Spikes given its ability to use its attacking prowess to force switches to its counters, which proceed to get Roared out right after taking an unanswered 12.5%. This can wear Snorlax down pretty quickly to the point where it can no longer safely switch into a Thunder. However, without Spikes, Raikou is better off using a Sleep Talk set to keep going. This is especially useful for absorbing things like Exeggutor Sleep Powder or for dealing with Vaporeon even when you need to Rest. However, Raikou matches up much more poorly against Grounds and Snorlax than Zapdos does, so while it's faster, better at abusing Spikes, and actually walls opposing Zapdos, it's also running away a lot more often, too.
Nice thing about Raikou as a Spikes shuffler in GSC is that it destroys all the common spinners (Starmie/Cloyster in particular, but Forretress doesn't want to take a Thunder(bolt) either).
In the current OU the extreme popularity of Flygon and Heatran on offensive teams makes a CM Raikou sweep almost impossible. While against stall CM Raikou is next to useless with no way of getting around Blissey, Sp.def Heatran, Tyranitar and Bulky grounds etc. But like BKC said, Scarf Kou is a very effective set and the anti lead is fun.

Some of Raikou's other options are outclassed e.g. if you're using Dugtrio support then agility Zapdos tends to be a much better sweeper. Choice specs Jolteon outspeeds Scarf-Tar and Starmie, while it also gets baton pass to act a s a pseudo u-turn, while Raikou's extra power isn't really worth anything.

In UU: Raikou also ran Cro kou (restalk cm) as immunities to electric attacks are not as common in the tier. I think the fact that Dugtrio trapped basically all of Raikou's counters is what made it completely broken in the tier (although it was a great poke in it's own right). Dugtrio was so common during Raikou's spell in UU that some of the top players even ran shed shell Raikou.

At the start of gen 4 I remember seeing it a lot more often and it was commonly used with toxic spikes support as it's main checks at the time were bulky grounds and blissey. It took a really long time before people realized that Raikou sucked.
Wow, I let this die hard... Time for another attempted revival, imo :3

Entei time, lgi. Been a while, but y'all should know the drill. Best sets, uses, niches, etc. Let's chat about our boy Entei :3


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Well although I never really gave entei a try heres what I think.

RBY - Didnt exist so yea.

GSC - Looking at its stats, it seems to be pretty bulky but it cant really take advantage of those stats. Since both solarbeam and fire blast are special moves, it couldnt take advantage of its high atk stat and needs sunny day to be able to boost its atk power to be able to put a dent in ou.

ADV - If anything, it got worse this gen. With the introduction of sand stream, its not able to set up sunny day nearly as effective as before. That also makes it have to scrap one of its 2 means of attack; solar beam. It still isnt able to take advantage of its atk very well but it did gain calm mind to help boost its lowish sp atk but with only fire blast and hp grass to use it with, its probably not going to get very far. One good thing about it tho is that its one of the few pokemon that can make a sub blissey cant break in a turn.

DPP - I never played DDP but I dont have to play it to say that it did finally get a much needed improvement move wise with stone edge and a stab flare blitz and to add to that, the excellent priority move known as extremespeed. It could finally use that atk its been itching to abuse for so long. But right when it got one thing it always wanted, stealth rocks came and ruined its day. Talk about terrible luck.

So overall, entei bearly ever had the chance to shine.


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Entei sucks.

In DPP, it is outclassed big time by Arcanine, with only slightly better stats but no Intimidate/Flash Fire or recovery.


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Entei's not standard by any means, but it's actually not a half-bad Sun-abusing gimmick in GSC. Unlike Houndoom it's got the bulk to go toe-to-toe with Lax (even unboosted EQ fails to 2HKO), and unlike Moltres it gets Solarbeam to actually 3HKO Vap/Cune without a Growth boost. It also avoids the Zapdos Thunder 2HKO and Speed ties it, so whereas Zapper could try for 50% Thunders against the other two, it's pretty much a non-option against Entei. Entei's main problem is its SpA is pretty low, so unlike Moltres and Houndoom it very rarely 3HKOs Lax in Sun. If you use HP Fighting as its 4th, though, you're doing Zapdos Thunder-level damage to it, which is a likely 4HKO. This means that a Lax with 2 Rest turns left can't switch in unless it's a Sleep Talker. Plus, HP Fighting keeps Ttar from switching in on Sunny Day and 3HKOs Blissey, which is normally the bane of Sunny Day mons, so yeah, definitely use HP Fighting on Entei. Its HP is so huge that the hit you take from HP Fight means almost nothing, and you still preserve your important survival stats (Zapdos Thunder and Snorlax EQ are still just 3HKOs).

Of course, good luck feeling comfortable with your team's synergy with a big fat Fire-type taking up a teamslot. As effective as its offensive ceiling is, there's other offensive mons that do more for your team.
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In GSC/ADV Entei's got the "Fire curse" of having only special STAB but wasting half its BST on a colossal Attack stat.

Also, Fire's a shitty defensive type. Earthquake's been everywhere since RBY, Surf's been everywhere since GSC, and Stealth Rock's everywhere from DPP on. It didn't get Ice resistance in RBY (where it would have mattered) and there's not many strong Ice or Grass attacks in GSC/ADV.
Two words: Underwhelming and Outclassed. In GSC, it suffers like other Fire types within the first two generations. The wrong totals in the wrong stats. Nothing to properly abuse his Attack. His only notworthy trait is his bulk (which still doesn't help much since he's Fire).

In RSE, he gets Calm Mind, and eventually, Substitute. He can at least make fat subs while avoiding status and such while boosting his Special stats. Decent Speed makes him at least something to be aware of. Still, Fire as a typing is bad and there are plenty of other CMers to use.

DP finally gives him Flare Blitz, a move to make use of his Attack. That said, it's all he had for a while. Still only has Pressure. Stealth Rocks ruins most of his "defensive" potential and there are so many fast, hard-hitting threats that he can't stand up to. Down the line, he got Extremespeed. Ha, now Arcanine truly outclasses him instead of figuratively. Arcanine still has better abilities.

And if you want to go farther, he gets nothing in BW really. If I'm not mistaken, Flash Fire was never released. No extra coverage moves while Arcanine got Close Combat and Wild Charge. Pretty much no potential is the upper tiers due to rain being everywhere. RU pretty much gave him a pass to some sort of notoriety.
entei is one of the best pokemon in bw ru. cb is amazing and subcm is pretty good as well. speaking of subcm it's also decent in dpp uu (where all its physical options are done better by arcanine) and it sorta has a niche in adv ou!


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Entei has pretty good stats on paper, but the distribution of them and the movepool are just terrible.
In GSC it can't make use of it's highest stat, because of the horrible movepool, and Charizard outclasses it as a physical attacker with a fire typing - Belly Drum, EQ immunity, actual physical attacking moves, etc. Sunnybeam is nice and all, but it won't consistently perform well imo.
The sand centered OUs of gen 3 and 4 didn't really help it either. Physical/Special split in gen 4 might be a gift, but Stealth Rock weakness and the best Stab move having a nasty recoil won't let Entei stick around for long in any match. Introduction of Drizzle in OU in BW nerfed it yet again, not to mention that it gets terribly outclassed as a sun sweeper by the likes of Victini or the chlorophyll sweepers.
Ironically enough gen 6 is where Entei becomes the most relevant. Hazards are easy to remove and Sacred Fire was a blessing. I kinda doubt Entei will ever make it to one of the top OU threats, also because of how popular Charizard X is at the moment, but it definitely turned from irrelevant and a waste of a pokemon slot in OU to a very usable Pokemon.
In GSC Entei is, sadly, underwhelming. Gets STAB on a special typing but his Special Attack is not impressive. On the physical side, where he would shine, he doesn't get good physical moves. Being a Fire type doesn't help either. By far the weakest legendary dog, probably tied with Articuno on the weakest legendary overall in this gen. If he was allowed in GSC UU, he would destroy a lot of things though.


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I disagree with Entei tying Articuno for weakest legend. Articuno is by far the weakest legend in GSC, it's not even close. Moltres and Entei have Sunny Day niches, whereas Suicune, Zapdos, and Raikou are actually good. Articuno doesn't have anything going for it.

Ah, that lovable duck. OU for GSC and ADV, he straddled the line between OU and NU in DPP. So, what were his best roles, teammates, counters, and niches? Everything's game for this one ^.^
p2 rules in adv. first and foremost, trace lets it trap dugtrio, which is huge for a million reasons. its bulk also lets it act as a psuedo-bulky water with its ability to take hits from mostly anything, and it's capable of harassing its switchins with twave/toxic + reasonably powerful boltbeam. things that like duggy gone work well with it (this is obviously a fuckload of shit but ttar/celebi/jirachi/raikou immediately come to mind). trace can be used in more ways than just turning dug's arena trap against it, though; you can get some hp against a vaporeon surf or jolteon tbolt, you can rid yourself of status by coming in on a celebi or blissey, and probably more (i remember i once got pressure stalled by one that switched in on my zapdos). i think the analysis has modest but imo p2 really needs bold for dug/mence/gyara and it's extremely useful as a backup to shit like tar/meta/aero. it usually uses ice beam/tbolt/recover/twave or toxic (once i used both, dropping tbolt, and it was pretty cool) but it can go sharpen to +6 on dug if you really want to!

in dpp it was used a fair bit during the latimence meta (i remember legacy raider had a team with it) even though i don't think it was ever ou (it might have been at one point but i'm not quite certain). it was definitely used more in ou than uu though! anyway the new trace mechanics now bounced intimidate back at the mence/gyara p2 was switching in on so they weren't doing shit with their dd sets. it could probably be ev'd to survive 2 hits from mixmence after sr although i'm not sure if anyone actually did that. it's really niche now, but with dugtrio's somewhat recent surge in popularity, it's probably got a place on a team here or there (iirc conflict used one vs pana in the last dpp ou tour about a year ago).


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I'm not a GSC veteran so I'll leave this part to the pro like Jorgen/MDragon but I know Porygon2 is a good Curser that can take Snorlax in a pinch on top of being a good bulky Pokemon all-around thanks to its lack of weakness (despite the obvious fighting one).

Echoing BKC's thoughts about how good Porygon2 is in ADV. It's now a staple in CM teams thanks to its ability to countertrap Dugtrio and just as good in these teams: act as a solid check to a lot of offensive threats with a Bold nature (Aero, non-DD Tyranitar, Salamence, Gyarados, non-Curse Snorlax, etc). As BKC said, its overall viability is so good that it's used in a lot of different playstyle now. It can also spread status like a champ' (the Twave/Toxik set is really underrated) for slow offense.

Trace is so great it's not even fair, it lets P2 heal off status vs bulkier team by coming on Celebi/Blissey. Also wall the shit out of Flygon/Jolteon. Basically, Porygon2 is one of the best second-check to a ton of threats and has the almost unique ability to trap Dugtrio back. These traits made him the popular Pokemon it is now in the ADV metagame (and it's well-deserved).

Just a little mention to the BW generation: Porygon2 shines in UU (really solid tank with good offensive abilities thanks to Download/Analytic).

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