All Gens Pokemon Through the Ages: Flygon

in adv uu golem was really popular for a long time but at some point people realized there is practically no reason to use it over omastar, solrock, lunatone, and even the not-that-great-either aggron. unless you are using it on an incredibly fast paced team, or you can support it consistently with reflect and wishes from hypno, kangaskhan is too much for it and granbull's no slouch either. the rse analysis onsite recommends restalk golem but that is utter shit. if you are going to use an offensively impotent restalking normal resistance you may as well have it set up spikes (omastar). i really do not remember the last time i felt inclined toward putting golem on an adv uu team.

it does well enough against the likes of fearow i guess, provided you have something else to handle kangaskhan, and it does have a pretty powerful earthquake/double-edge/explosion, particularly with a cb tacked onto it. has a lot of trouble with gligar and solrock regardless and they're everywhere. counter can take kangaskhan by surprise. i guess golem can be kind of helpful against pinsir??? i dunno it is kind of worthless no matter how you look at it, but way too good for NU where even relicanth is a major rascal.
Switching into Hyper Beam is less relevant in GSC, since it's no longer as useful a finishing move, and Rest becomes a more viable alternative to Explosion as well.
Actually, switching into Hyper Beam is completelly unrelevant in GSC. No one uses Hyper Beam (think Charizard is the only that may have it).

Also, Explosion is the only reason to use Golem in GSC. There is no reason to use it over Rhydon if you pick Rest. The advantage of Golem over Steelix as an exploder is that it forces the water-types to switch in with Earthquake, Rock Slide and Fire Blast, whereas Steelix have alternative counters (most flyers, Skarmory specially, if Spikes is not on the field). Even then, Steelix is better Pokémon overall, excellent phazer, working amazing well with Spikes. Golem have only one purpose: explode. Also, using Golem is harder as you need to more predict to work.

EDIT: you may run Substitute on Golem to help predict, but then you should forego one of the other 3 moves, making it easier to counter it.


World's Strongest Fairy
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GSC Golem either runs Fire Blast for instant Skarm/Egg damage or Curse to switch into Curselax while still beating down on non-Curse Skarms (and para'd Curse Skarms). I'd prefer Curse personally because Curselax coverage is basically the only thing he has defensively, take that away and what's he switch in on to begin with? That being said Golem is quite mediocre in GSC; the power drop relative to Rhydon is much more relevant here and it's more dependent than ever on its Explosion. Still, it's pretty cool I guess.

As for RBY we did Rhydon a while back, and inevitably Golem was mentioned all over the place in his description. Basically, Golem is a significantly weaker Rhydon (2HKO on Chansey is not guaranteed, 3HKO on Snorlax is nearly impossible, Golem's Rock Slides take notably smaller chunks out of Egg), but it gets Explosion to give it a way out in the event it has to retaliate in response to a big hit (and considering how many Pokemon hit the Rocks hard, this is typical). Also Golem outspeeds Rhydon so it wins the head-to-head. Aside from that, these two are the same Pokemon; defensively they switch into Lax Body Slams, absorb Hyper Beams/Explosions, and wall Zapdos/Jolteon to hell and back, all while providing a physical offensive presence that is really only safely sponged by Exeggutor.

After spending the first 2 gens in UU, Magneton made the jump to OU in ADV. By DPP, it had a new evolution and found itself all the way down in NU. How did changes in the metagame affect Magneton's placement, and what were its best sets and roles throughout the gens?


World's Strongest Fairy
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Magneton in RBY was awful. Very high Special, above-average Defense (high for an Electric-type), but awful everywhere else and without a movepool outside of Electric and Normal moves (the latter of which are unusable with base 50 Attack). I don't really play RBY UU, but I suppose it's decent there as an Electric-type with higher Special than Electabuzz, although the lower crit rate, inability to outpace Amnesia users, and inability to hit Grounds make it worse except as a secondary Electric.

In GSC it got a Steel typing, but it's still not very good in OU. It's a steel-type with mediocre defenses all around and a 4x weakness to Ground, so it can't counter things like Snorlax that other Steels can, nor can it switch into the Water-types that other Electrics can. It even struggles to take resisted Thunders from Zapdos! However, it's a mainstay in UU, where it's the only Steel-type available and the only Dodrio counter that also beats the numerous Water-types in the tier. Just watch out for HP Ground! It's also got a ridiculous Special Attack stat that leaves Chansey and Ampharos as the only things in the tier that can wall it for sure, and access to Thunder Wave, the most annoying move in the tier.

In ADV Magneton is a niche Pokemon that takes out Skarmory and sometimes Forretress (and sometimes even Metagross choice-locked into Meteor Mash), and it has a high enough Special Attack stat to do some work even after those pesky Steels are eliminated, plus a solid defensive typing that allows it to switch in on standard Gengar. It's not the best Pokemon in the world, but it has its niche.

It's important to note that even after RBY, Magneton's movepool is crap, and from GSC onward it depends on having the right Hidden Power to hope to do damage (just like most Electrics, to be honest).
The problem with Magneton in RBY OU isn't so much that it's walled by Golem/Rhydon (it is, but that goes for every other Electric as well bar Raichu), but that it's walled by Exeggutor and Chansey, both of which are omnipresent. Electric-types live and die by how well they deal with those, and Magneton poses little threat to either Egg or Chansey whereas Jolteon has Pin Missile and Double Kick and Zapdos has STAB Drill Peck.


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Magneton didn't do much at all in RBY, GSC, and DPP. Alas, ADV were the only true glory days for this magnetic machine, and even then it didn't fulfill much more than a niche role. However, in the newer ADV metagame, Magneton is becoming more and more useful. The standard Substitute set, in my opinion, is eclipsed in usefulness by both the EndureSalac set and the RestTalk set. The former has nothing to fear from the common Skarm ---> Dugtrio double-switch to scout for Magneton, as it can Endure + Hidden Power Ice/Grass to shut the duo down. The latter, however, has what is arguably even greater usefulness in that it completely shuts down your standard status + Tbolt + Ice + GDrain Gar, while still performing excellently as an immediate stop to Skarmory and Forretress (and Metagross if it's locked into Mash). Both sets are really nice to have in this metagame, where Gengar is the 2nd most common lead and Dugtrio is on a very high percentage of teams. Sadly, the rise of Magnezone in DPP doomed Magneton for eternity, though it has seen a brief stint in BW for being able to, with a Scarf, outspeed Tornadus-T, which Magnezone cannot - but since Torn-T will be gone in a few days, it looks like Magneton's OU days are coming to a final close.
Just a comment about Magneton in Adv: I'm really not a fan of either the EndureSalac or the RestTalk sets. In my opinion, both sets have huge flaws that really hinder them in doing their jobs, which is why they are less standard than the common Substitute sets. For the former, let's say that Magneton gets trapped by Dugtrio. The Magneton player uses Endure as the Dugtrio uses Earthquake, gaining the Salac boost and subsequently outspeeding Dugtrio. The problem here is that the Dugtrio player isn't trapped; instead of staying in to eat an obvious hidden power grass/ice he can easily switch in Blissey or Snorlax and either force Magneton out or kill it outright. In this scenario, Magneton still hasn't accomplished it's purpose of trapping Skarmory. The next time Skarmory comes in, unless you predict perfectly with Magneton, it's a lose-lose scenario: If you let Skarmory set up spikes, Magneton can't come in, and if you try to bring it in, it'll die to Drill Peck/HP[Flying] etc. I guess it's a temporary solution to long-term problem.
About Rest-Talk Magneton, any mispredict can lead to being trapped and ko-ed by Dugtrio. You're going to have to spam Hidden Power Grass/Ice, giving the opponent a lot of (relatively) free switch-ins. In general, Electrics (with the exception of Zapdos) can't make very reliable walls in ADV because of Dugtrio alone. Also, Fire Punch Gengar is pretty common.
Magneton is one of the main defensive Pokémon in GSC UU. Much like Quagsire, its unique type forces things to use Hidden Power only to counter it. That's because Magneton resists almost every attack that isn't super effective on it, with the expection of water moves, which is its biggest flaw IMO. It's an electric Pokémon that doesn't counter Water-types very well, as it can't take too many Surf on the switch, and being slow don't help it either. Anyway, it counter a lot of other Pokémon that doesn't carry a random Hidden Power [Ground]. And doubles as a support Pokémon with Thunder Wave and Reflect.
Magneton is actually ok in DPP. Its higher speed is the sole reason it should be used over Magnezone; it's faster than Starmie, +1 Adamant Gyarados, +1 Adamant Dragonite, Scarf or +1 Ttar regardless of nature, Weavile, and Dugtrio. However if you're not going to make use of that, you're better off using Magnezone.

In ADV I like restalk Magneton, simply because it's one of the more reliable Gengar switch-ins [Fire Punch is relatively rare]. The Metal Sound set is also pretty cool and can potentially be really annoying. Endure + Salac is cute but it's a one-time thing that can easily be foiled by the Dugtrio user switching out the turn after they EQ; plus, I don't think HP Grass even KOes Dug without some Spikes up since they run some SpDef for Raikou/Blissey. Mag + Porygon2 is really cool btw.


As the single most dominant threat of the 4 past generations, Snorlax is certainly a Pokemon we can all discuss. You know the drill by now; what are its best sets, roles, counters, niches, teammates, etc., and how did it change throughout history?


World's Strongest Fairy
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In RBY and GSC nothing but superlatives describe Snorlax. Briefly, Snorlax in RBY is the best (or at least, the most reliable) wallbreaker and the most versatile Pokemon in the game. In GSC Snorlax is even better at offense and more versatile AND is the game's best Special Wall to boot.

Snorlax is not always walled by something in GSC. Most teams prepare extensively for it, true, but it still smashes them with a Drum set or a Curse + Fire Blast set (most walls take heavy damage on the switch or don't run recovery) or a SelfDestruct set or an LK set. It's impossible to always have Snorlax walled, and if you can always have it walled you're going to have gaping holes to other things.

In ADV it lost some effectiveness with extra hazard layers, buffed Leech Seed, more prominent Normal resists, the new EV system, and Sand everywhere. In spite of all these nerfs, though, Curselax can still easily tear through an ill-prepared or a weakened team, and straight-out attacking sets are pretty scary, too.
In RBY and GSC at least, Snorlax can do anything it wants. In RBY, it literally can go one for one with any poke in the game with STAB Selfdestruct, hit hard with STAB Body Slam or Hyper Beam, be a great Goldon lure with Surf, set up amnesias and reflects with rest to become super bulky without crits... it literally can do anything you need it to. Snorlax is also the best place to be creative in RBY; one special move like Counter or Rest can turn the tide of a match.

In GSC, you pretty much need one to function. In RBY, one can pull off a team without Chansey or Tauros. However, in GSC, Snorlax is just so dominant and can do so much that you have to try NOT to put it in your team. Every team is forced to carry multiple Lax checks, or they will get steamrolled by Belly Drum, Curse, Mix, or a random creative set. The metagame shifted from a more offensive in RBY to a bulky one in GSC, and this fit Snorlax perfectly. Snorlax even changed to adapt to this by greatly increasing its special bulk by about 1.5x. All I can say is try to be creative with it, as it can do almost anything you need.

In RSE, Snorlax is not quite as dominant (but really, how can you be that dominant?), but its still great at what it does. It had to deal with more residual damage much more often than usual. Some of these are Sand Stream, Spikes, and Leech Seed robbing health. This makes its Belly Drum sets less usable, but its Curse set can still light the metagame up if anybody gives it an opportunity. It is also fairly unique in stats; it is the only specially bulky offensive tank in the metagame with the possible exception of Calm Mind Blissey.

In DPPt, Snorlax is not nearly as effective, but it still maintains its niche as a specially bulky offensive tank. In general, the metagame moves too fast for Snorlax to keep up. Specially oriented threats also are much stronger, and there always is Choice Band Scizor ready to hammer you with U-Turn if you want to stay in. Despite all the difficulties it faces, it still is an excellent threat and should never be underestimated. It still is excellent in walling things like Heatran beautifully, and blowing up/trapping things with either Pursuit or STAB Selfdestruct (Can't have both). That Curse set is still there as well, but watch out for the ubiquitous Fighting pokes to beat up on you
This. Gigant. And. Round. Thing. Hits. Like. A. Truck.

With the difference that a Truck can't beat it 1vs1. That's pretty much says all about Snorlax, he can beat almost any Pokémon on a 1vs1 that doesn't have Fighthing STAB and later just Selfdestruct itself, or Rest the damage and continue it's onslaught.

On the first generation, it's one of best Pokémon over there thanks to a monstruous STAB Hyper Beam and Body Slam, even when it can't wall things all the day, it can resist some hits with enough luck, and defeat anything on a 1vs1 with a bit of luck. It's problem is the fact that Gengar and Rhydon/Golem are really common, so, it can't Selfdestruct itself so easily, Rest is really dangerous on RBY thanks to the huge number of secondary effects and Critical Hits, and the prevelance of sleep (they can just try to sleep Snorlax when it wakes up), and can even lost some 1vs1 thanks to it's really low Critical Hit rate and the higher ones of it's opponents. It's still a great Pokémon, and when it can't hit you all the time 2 K.O's or clean like others do, it still can almost always hit at least 1 K.O per match, help absorbing the sleep, as it's good at it, it can also set screens for it's friends and make a surprise counter, if needed. It rarely/never is a dead weight for the team, that's it's great asset on RBY.

On the second generation, it winned a superb special defense, and Curse/Belly Drum, it's offen called the King of GSC, and it may be true as it can really wall and beat on a 1vs1 any, but any special attacker, and can win against any curse user on a 1vs1, rest/resttalk, and get ready for a new K.O, and when it doesn't have any hope to continue, it can just selfdestruct itself and score a second, third, or fourth K.O. It can even sweep and steamroll any team totally unprepared for it with just Curse or Belly Drum. For the luck of it's opponents, it somewhat suffers of 4 slot syndrome, thus, once you know it's set, you can check or counter him without any major problem, then problem is to figure what set it does carry, as if you figure the set too late, you'll at least lose 1 Pokémon by it's bear-like claws. Figthing Pokémon are now good and even great on this metagame, and all of them can check Snorlax pretty badly, like any Hazer and Phazer can do, too, so, it's far from being broken and you can play around it, even if you don't use it on your team, but it's without doubts the best Pokémon of GSC, and every team should be prepared for it.

The third generation were good times, too, I think the ADV Snorlax was better than the RBY, thanks to it's defenses and new toys, and even when it's nemesis were better, Snorlax had all it needs to almost always score a K.O (usually 2) on this era, so, it's still like it's RBY part, just with new toys and counters. This Snorlax almost never had problems to support it's team while scoring always a K.O or two, and that's most than enough to make it a prime OU; still, as it had now some more counters and checks, it does now needs a bit of team support to take care of them, but a prepared Snorlax can overcome almost anything with the enough luck.

The fourth generation... This thing hits like a truck, it may have now rivals for it's position of "I'll always help your team" with the likes of Scizor now being more powerful, but Snorlax is still a prime force, as it can steamroll any team without STAB Figthers or Close Combat users, it does need a bit of support, but if you have a free switch, some support for the Figthers, and some of paralize support, Snorlax will sweep and nothing will stop him. Even without support, it still had it's great power to almost always archive a K.O or two, with just a Choice Band this thing hits so hard that nothing without an inmunity can switch-in at all, and even them should fear for it's coverage and other sets, as Stockpile + RestLax can overcome anything with just a free turn. It's asset is still the same; it shall never be a dead weight for your team.
It's still a great Pokémon, and when it can't hit you all the time 2 K.O's or clean like others do, it still can almost always hit at least 1 K.O per match, help absorbing the sleep, as it's good at it, it can also set screens for it's friends and make a surprise counter, if needed. It rarely/never is a dead weight for the team, that's it's great asset on RBY.
Snorlax can't set screens for its friends in RBY, because a) it doesn't have Light Screen, b) screens don't transfer anyway.
adv lax is really good. curse isnt that common, but youd be surprised at how un-prepared a lot of teams nowadays are for it. four moveslot syndrome is a bitch [shadow ball for gar, eq for ttar, rest for recovery, sometimes selfdestruct] but its still a really solid mon. from what ive seen, sd lax is the most common nowadays, and not without reason. its reliable against nearly any team.

in dpp, lax is still solid, just a lot easier to stop, most notably by the incredibly common and dangerous breloom. its also annoyed by a lot of special attackers that its meant to stop; shaymin has leech seed, starmie can trick specs onto it, heatran can explode on it, gengar can either hit it with a strong focus blast or sap laxs hp with pain split...lax isnt bad against these guys for the most part, just not the most reliable. if you use lax in dpp, id avoid the curse set, and use either cb [return/pursuit/superpower/fire punch, acts kind of like a ttar in the way that it traps a lot of frail spatkers like starmie and gengar, except it doesnt bring sand with it, which is useful if youre also packing something like infernape], or four atks [return/crunch/eq/selfdestruct, generally solid utility attacker].


Ride on Shooting Star
Curselax in ADV has trouble with celebi and Skarmory. And is less effective if sand stream is on the field. It is extremely powerful but celebi/skarmory/tyranitar are not good problems to have. Tyranitar without shadowball has problems with gengar. Curselax is good but it doesn't match up well against the metagame.
I've been seeing a lot of CB Snorlax in ADV lately. Though this variant is particularly susceptible to residual damage in the form of spikes and the ubiquitous sandstorm, it can muscle its way past Celebi and severely dent its switch-ins with proper prediction. Skarmory and Forretress can be easily trapped by Magneton. With Wish support and its innate bulk this Snorlax has a surprising number of chances to really mess up the opposing team. When its done, it can go out with a bang, pretty much OHKOing anything with its choice-band boosted STAB Self-destruct except a ghost (even 252/252+ Skarmory takes 81.1% - 95.5%). Definitely a threat to consider.
I've been wondering, if Snorlax was really so overcentralizing in GSC, why was it never deemed Uber? I mean, back then, there weren't any standard procedures on Smogon like there are nowadays, but I can't help but imagine some people may have noticed..
I've been wondering, if Snorlax was really so overcentralizing in GSC, why was it never deemed Uber? I mean, back then, there weren't any standard procedures on Smogon like there are nowadays, but I can't help but imagine some people may have noticed..
I've heard it said that it's because Snorlax has a zillion viable sets - that makes up for the overcentralisation somewhat.


Ride on Shooting Star
The attitude and policies of Smogon were different back then.

I played through almost the entire adv gen (on and off). During the 7 or so years it was the main gen there was one short lived tier change (celebi was banned from part of one smogon tour season).
Overcentralization of a pokemon doesn't necessarily mean overcentralization of viable team, which is what pokemon is really about. Running snorlax paved way for MORE teams than without. The number of viable/competitive teams with 5 pokemon + snorlax greatly outnumber 6 pokemon teams in the absence of lax. What other pokemon can make that claim?
So, up until now, we've done RBY mons that were OU at some point during the first four gens. We've run out of them, so we've got a few options now. We could focus on RBY mons that were never OU, such as Venusaur, Blastoise, Mewtwo, Mew, etc. We could also go with GSC mons that were OU at some point, such as Tyranitar, Blissey, Skarmory, Suicune, etc. We could even go with a mix of these to spice things up a bit. The last option is to just end this thread here, but seeing as it's been a consistent discussion thread for about 7 months, I'd rather keep it going, personally.

I figured it'd be best to get all of your opinions on the matter~

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