Pokemon XD In-Game Tier List

Fireburn

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Approved by DHR-107
OP based off Karxrida's thread who based his off like everyone else's thread, these only have so much variety

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Pokemon XD: Gale of Darkness In-Game Tier List Discussion
What is an in-game tier list?

In-game tier lists rank the obtainable Pokemon in terms of their efficiency in usefulness in clearing the main story campaign of the game. In the case of this game, clearing the story is defined as defeating Greevil for the first time in Citadark Isle. The efficiency of a playthrough is defined by the length of real time needed to complete the game.

What are the tiers?

There are six main tiers and one tier reserved for Pokemon that cannot justifiably be ranked, listed in order of relative usefulness:

-S Tier
-A Tier
-B Tier
-C Tier
-D Tier
-E Tier
-F Tier
-Untiered

A Pokemon is considered untierable if it comes from an outside event, cannot be obtained during the main story, or is only obtainable during the final boss fight or in postgame.

Pokemon are ranked based on the following criteria:

  • Availability: When the Pokémon can be first found. Earlier Pokémon (i.e. anything captured before/during Phenac City) will more than likely rank higher due to Shadow Pokémon mechanics.
  • Typing: What is the Pokémon's typing and how useful it is in the game. More useful typings tend to rank higher.
  • Stats: What their base stats are like and how they contribute to a team. Pokémon with better stats for in-game runs tend to rank higher.
  • Movepool: What the Pokémon's movepool is like and how it contributes to a team. Pokémon with wider and more useful movepools tend to rank higher.
  • Major Battles: How the Pokémon fares against key match-ups in the game. Pokémon who perform better against more major battles tend to rank higher
  • Other: Other aesthetics like abilities, EXP curve, can slightly contribute to a Pokémon's tiering as well. Note that a Pokémon's physical appearance has no impact on its tiering!
Basically, Pokémon who are ranked higher in the tier list tend to be found earlier in the game (or at a higher level), can win more match-ups from the game's various trainers (including the Admins), and have stronger movepools (usually starting out with good moves and getting good level-up moves or making good use of the available TMs). They may have other useful qualities, such as more useful abilities, faster growth, or self-healing moves.

Note that the tier descriptions are simply guidelines, they are not intended to be hard and fast rules.

Eeveelutions will be ranked separately.

Current Rankings

See the next post.

Discussion Guidelines

Format the write-up for your submission as follows. Make sure to use Ruby and Sapphire sprites.

Code:
[IMG]<Sprite URL>[/IMG]
[B]Name
Availability:[/B] When does this Pokémon become available? Is it easy or hard to catch?
[B]Stats:[/B] Describe how a Pokémon's stats make it excel. Is it a deadly sweeper or a strong wall? Discuss why you would use this Pokemon thank to its stats.
[B]Typing:[/B] Discuss this Pokémon's typing in a sentence or two. Is its STAB efficient or not, does it have any great resistances or glaring weaknesses?
[B]Movepool:[/B] Describe this Pokémon's movepool in a few sentences. Does it have many effective movepool options from purification and through level up? Is it over-reliant on TMs to function?
[B]Major Battles:[/B] Describe how the Pokémon handles the major opponents throughout the game. Notable opponents and battles include Admins and battles against various (named) members of Cipher that are notably difficult.
[B]Additional Comments:[/B] Discuss any miscellaneous information not covered in other sections here. Factors such as experience growth, abilities, and other lesser characteristics can be discussed here, as well as (opportunity) cost - does it require constant healing, highly sought-after TMs (eg Earthquake), or expensive Game Corner items, for example? The entry can be wrapped up here as well.
Write well. The goal is to eventually update the tier list on-site, so make these something you can be proud of.

Feel free to dispute and discuss other users submissions, but please, no flaming. Normal forum rules apply here. Finally, this is not the place to talk about the games in general.

This will be done in a few phases. First, initial tiering and placing, then writing up the entries, then finally reviewing placings and write-ups. Then we will attempt to get it on-site.

Resources

Obtainable Pokemon + Locations:
https://www.serebii.net/xd/pokemon.shtml
https://www.serebii.net/xd/trade.shtml
https://www.serebii.net/xd/pokespot.shtml

Current Tier List
https://www.smogon.com/ingame/guides/xd_ingametiers

Movesets upon Purification (scroll down a bit to find Pokemon XD)
https://bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net/wiki/List_of_Shadow_Pokémon

Purification Rates (courtesy of MellowBusiness)
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1l66_53jv0Sr8IlUDpmmzJ4if4dr8gcnPNfASsML4UvI/edit#gid=0
 
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Fireburn

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S-Tier: Reserved for Pokémon who possess the highest levels of efficiency of the available options in the game. Pokémon in this tier are able to OHKO or 2HKO an overwhelming majority of opponents, limiting the amount of attacks used against them, and possess minimal reliance on items to help assist them defeat opponents at like levels. These Pokémon typically show up very early on and any flaws they have are absolutely made up by their advantages.

Eevee (Espeon)
Eevee (Jolteon)
Houndour
Teddiursa


A-Tier: Reserved for Pokémon whose efficiency in terms of completing the game is considered to be very high. Pokémon in this tier are able to OHKO or 2HKO a lot of opponents and are not very reliant on items to succeed, but either have some visible flaws that hurt their efficiency or have their usefulness counterbalanced by a late arrival.

Makuhita
Mareep
Shroomish


B-Tier: Reserved for Pokémon whose efficiency in terms of completing the game is considered to be high. Pokémon in this tier are able to OHKO or 2HKO a fair chunk of opponents and may have a bit of item reliance to assist in sweeping opponents. These Pokémon are still very useful but either have several visible flaws holding them back or come fairly late.

Carvanha
Eevee (Vaporeon)
Elekid
Eevee (Flareon)
Growlithe
Lunatone
Meditite
Natu
Ralts
Vulpix
Wooper
Zangoose


C-Tier: Reserved for Pokémon whose efficiency in terms of completing the game is considered to be moderately high. Pokémon in this tier are able to OHKO or 2HKO a reasonable portion of opponents but are matchup-based enough to need some item reliance to assist in sweeping some opponents. These Pokémon are useful but either have several visible flaws holding them back or barely make up for their late arrivals.

Baltoy
Dodrio
Duskull
Eevee (Umbreon)
Gulpin
Kangaskhan
Numel
Poochyena
Seedot
Seel
Spheal
Weepinbell
Voltorb
Zubat


D-Tier: Reserved for Pokémon whose efficiency in terms of completing the game is considered to be average. Pokémon in this tier are able to OHKO or 2HKO a small amount of opponents and tend to be matchup-based enough to need item reliance to assist in sweeping a few opponents. The usefulness of these Pokémon are typically counterbalanced by many visible flaws or are useful Pokémon that come very late.

Arbok
Aron
Delcatty
Grimer
Hoppip
Hypno
Mawile
Meowth
Paras
Phanpy
Pidgeotto
Primeape
Roselia
Sandshrew
Shellder
Spearow
Tangela


E-Tier: Reserved for Pokémon whose efficiency in terms of completing the game is considered to be low. Pokémon in this tier are generally only able to OHKO or 2HKO specific opponents and suffer from being matchup-based, generally relying on items to assist in sweeping several opponents. These Pokémon either have flaws that outshine its strengths or are otherwise decent Pokémon that come too late to be of any major use.

Chansey
Electabuzz
Gligar
Golduck
Hitmonlee
Lapras
Larvitar
Ledyba
Lickitung
Marowak
Nosepass
Rapidash
Raticate
Salamence
Scyther
Snorlax
Snorunt
Spinarak
Starmie
Swellow
Swinub


F-Tier: Reserved for Pokémon who possess the worst efficiency of those available in irrespective of their availability. These Pokémon outright lose a lot of 1v1 matchups at like levels unless they are assisted with significant item support, or are otherwise ridiculously inefficient due to late captures, horrible movepools, etc. The flaws of these Pokémon completely mask whatever advantage they could possibly have and hence, should never be considered seriously for an efficient run-through.

Altaria
Banette
Beedrill
Butterfree
Dugtrio
Farfetch’d
Hitmonchan
Lugia
Magcargo
Magmar
Magneton
Manectric
Mr. Mime
Pineco
Pinsir
Poliwrath
Sableye
Shuckle
Solrock
Surskit
Togepi
Trapinch
Venomoth


Untiered

Articuno - Only catchable during the final boss fight.
Chikorita - Postgame
Cyndaquil - Postgame
Dragonite - Postgame
Exeggutor - Only catchable during the final boss fight.
Moltres - Only catchable during the final boss fight.
Rhydon - Only catchable during the final boss fight.
Tauros - Only catchable during the final boss fight.
Totodile - Postgame
Zapdos - Only catchable during the final boss fight.
 
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Glad to see this thread up and running! Before I consider noming stuff to move up or down, it appears y'all left Spearow out of the initial list entirely. Not sure if y'all had a spot for him and forgot to include him or never had a discussion on him, so I'll offer a placement:

Spearow: UR -> D
Spearow doesn't seem to have too much going for it in XD. The movepool is fairly shallow, but decent attack upon evolution allows Return + Aerial Ace / Drill Peck to hit hard with Steel Wing offering coverage for Rock-types. Probably the best thing for Spearow is its Flying-typing which allows for the common doubles strategy of Earthquake spam to be more easily utilized. With the ground immunity, Protect isn't as needed (though still useful in the doubles environment). This opens up room on the 4th slot for a utility move like False Swipe (great for catching the other shadow pokemon) or if you really want to be cool I guess you can opt for AgiliPass ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ A solid early-midgame availability also helps a bit. I wouldn't be overly opposed to C I suppose, but I see it more as on par with the likes of Pidgeotto which is currently in D (plus it really struggles with boss fights)
 

Fireburn

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Glad to see this thread up and running! Before I consider noming stuff to move up or down, it appears y'all left Spearow out of the initial list entirely. Not sure if y'all had a spot for him and forgot to include him or never had a discussion on him, so I'll offer a placement:

Spearow: UR -> D
Spearow doesn't seem to have too much going for it in XD. The movepool is fairly shallow, but decent attack upon evolution allows Return + Aerial Ace / Drill Peck to hit hard with Steel Wing offering coverage for Rock-types. Probably the best thing for Spearow is its Flying-typing which allows for the common doubles strategy of Earthquake spam to be more easily utilized. With the ground immunity, Protect isn't as needed (though still useful in the doubles environment). This opens up room on the 4th slot for a utility move like False Swipe (great for catching the other shadow pokemon) or if you really want to be cool I guess you can opt for AgiliPass ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ A solid early-midgame availability also helps a bit. I wouldn't be overly opposed to C I suppose, but I see it more as on par with the likes of Pidgeotto which is currently in D (plus it really struggles with boss fights)
Knew I forgot something, put this in D to start.
 

Merritt

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I'd like to propose Lugia go down to F from its current E.

Sure, it's bulky and probably not going to die vs Greevil unless you seriously neglect it but in return it's not really going to do much damage back. Shadow Shed is nice and all but is a Pokemon that's just there to lower defense and otherwise not contribute really worth that much?

And that's not even going into how little of the game overall it contributes against. Sure, Greevil is important but it's 6 Pokemon. And it's not as if Lugia is an instant win button against them either, the rest of the team definitely still matters. Honestly I just flat out don't think having Lugia in even something as low as E tier is appropriate compared to its actual usefulness in the game as a whole.
 

Karxrida

Corruption of Shadows
is a Community Contributor Alumnus
Eevee (Vaporeon) B -> A

I think Vap is good enough for A. It's very bulky (good for something with Helping Hand), decently strong even if it's not using Helping Hand, and naturally gets Ice coverage (even if it's kind of late). While there are obviously some STAB issues since you're stuck with Water Gun until Hydro Pump, you can get the Water Pulse TM rather painlessly with a minor detour to Mt. Battle (it's a free prize for beating 20 battles).


Shellder D -> C

It has Surf. Barely anything has Surf in this game. It obviously sucks at first but Cloyster spamming Surf is probably worth it. (Yes this is theorymonning, but Surf.)


Zangoose B -> A

Good right off the bat since it has Shadow Rush and high Attack. You get it a little late but you can just spam Crush Claw (or Brick Break for Steels) the entire time. Counter can be lulzy. You can also relearn Swords Dance once it's purified.
 
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Fireburn

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I'd like to propose Lugia go down to F from its current E.

Sure, it's bulky and probably not going to die vs Greevil unless you seriously neglect it but in return it's not really going to do much damage back. Shadow Shed is nice and all but is a Pokemon that's just there to lower defense and otherwise not contribute really worth that much?

And that's not even going into how little of the game overall it contributes against. Sure, Greevil is important but it's 6 Pokemon. And it's not as if Lugia is an instant win button against them either, the rest of the team definitely still matters. Honestly I just flat out don't think having Lugia in even something as low as E tier is appropriate compared to its actual usefulness in the game as a whole.
I could see this on the reasoning that Lugia doesn't get access to any normal attacks so it can't really deal damage, whereas other potential Shadow tanks (Lapras, Salamence, Marowak) can be partially purified to regain normal attacks to actually damage Greevil's Pokemon. This was thus make Lugia less useful than the other E Rank Shadow tanks and could justify a drop.

Eevee (Vaporeon) B -> A

I think Vap is good enough for A. It's very bulky (good for something with Helping Hand), decently strong even if it's not using Helping Hand, and naturally gets Ice coverage (even if it's kind of late). While there are obviously some STAB issues since you're stuck with Water Gun until Hydro Pump, you can get the Water Pulse TM rather painlessly with a minor detour to Mt. Battle (it's a free prize for beating 20 battles).
Vap is kind of borderline A/B to me. The main reason I did B instead of A is because there is a fair amount of lag to its lategame damage output. You are most likely not making it to Level 52 for Hydro Pump (final boss is 50 and you're likely finishing the game at low/mid 40s) so Water Pulse is Vaporeon's best attack which while good for early and midgame falls off) lategame. You could argue this is an issue with all the Water-types in this game but they all have a more powerful fallback STAB to use (Wooper has Earthquake, Carvanha has Crunch, the various Ice/Water mons get STAB on Ice Beam) to make up for it. Helping Hand is a nice point in its favor though. I'll consider moving it back up if there's more support for it.

Shellder D -> C

It has Surf. Barely anything has Surf in this game. It obviously sucks at first but Cloyster spamming Surf is probably worth it. (Yes this is theorymonning, but Surf.)
Shellder joins pretty late and it has a harder time leveraging its obscene Defense in Doubles with its SDef being so poor. Surf is good but it's likely not going to OHKO much due to spread penalties, and its awful SDEF means it can be killed pretty easily. There are two other Ice/Water mons in this game and both are better than Shellder (Spheal has availability, Seel has Helping Hand and natural Ice Beam as well as availability), so I'm hesitant to move it up to C with them.

Zangoose B -> A

Good right off the bat since it has Shadow Rush and high Attack. You get it a little late but you can just spam Crush Claw (or Brick Break for Steels) the entire time. Counter can be lulzy. You can also relearn Swords Dance once it's purified.
Zangoose ain't bad but the availability is a big negative. Relearning Swords Dance might be enough to send it over the top so I'll have to try it again and see.
 
Vap is kind of borderline A/B to me. The main reason I did B instead of A is because there is a fair amount of lag to its lategame damage output. You are most likely not making it to Level 52 for Hydro Pump (final boss is 50 and you're likely finishing the game at low/mid 40s) so Water Pulse is Vaporeon's best attack which while good for early and midgame falls off) lategame. You could argue this is an issue with all the Water-types in this game but they all have a more powerful fallback STAB to use (Wooper has Earthquake, Carvanha has Crunch, the various Ice/Water mons get STAB on Ice Beam) to make up for it. Helping Hand is a nice point in its favor though. I'll consider moving it back up if there's more support for it.



Shellder joins pretty late and it has a harder time leveraging its obscene Defense in Doubles with its SDef being so poor. Surf is good but it's likely not going to OHKO much due to spread penalties, and its awful SDEF means it can be killed pretty easily. There are two other Ice/Water mons in this game and both are better than Shellder (Spheal has availability, Seel has Helping Hand and natural Ice Beam as well as availability), so I'm hesitant to move it up to C with them.
I agree with your points about the two water types (the other two I don't have much to say about in addition to what's already been said). Vaporeon is definitely very much in between A and B in my opinion as well, but I agree B is a little more accurate for Vap. In both XD and Colosseum, the water types that don't get Surf suffer tremendously. I used Vaporeon in my last playthrough and while yes it is bulky and that helps it, the gap between Water Pulse and Hydro Pump in terms of power and time spent getting the upgraded Hydro Pump is severe. (For the record, I did get to Level 52 before the final fight, but that's me just over leveling to be safe and realizing I was only two levels away, so I invested the little extra time) Honestly what probably hurts Vaporeon the most is not having access to a secondary STAB since it does lack lack a powerful STAB for such a long chunk of the game; I ended up being pretty disappointed in Vap despite it being my favorite Eeveelution. Yes, Surf isn't always that great because of spread reduction, but in Doubles it is still useful to have access to and I think Vap should be punished a little for not having it.

As for Shellder, I would just echo that I think there is a clear divide between it and Spheal/Seel. Coming later than the other two in addition to having a weaker overall niche thanks to that low Special Def. separates it clearly in my mind (unless you really want Spikes? or self-destruct + ghost partner? lol nah) That said, I'm not sure Spheal and Seel deserve B rank either, so definitely keep Shellder a tier lower in D
 

Karxrida

Corruption of Shadows
is a Community Contributor Alumnus
Zangoose ain't bad but the availability is a big negative. Relearning Swords Dance might be enough to send it over the top so I'll have to try it again and see.
Your points on the other two Pokémon are fair but I disagree with Zangoose's availability issue.

While you get Zangoose right outside the front door of the penultimate dungeon, there's still a lot of game left. Cipher Key Lair and Citadark Isle are both quite lengthy (especially Citadark), and there are still a bunch of important fights where Zangoose can contribute.
 
I believe Electabuzz shouldn't be F tier because it has a pretty valuable niche in the final battles and that is with Shadow Half, which acts as a Super Fang for the entire field, but like Hyper Beam, has a recharge rate.
With Swellow, it is the highest leveled Pokemon that can learn this move, but manages to be a lot bulkier than Swellow (who is E tier, presumably because of Shadow Half), especially on the special defense side, which helps against the birds. It deserves to at least be E if Hitmonlee can be E, and he comes at a much lower level with the same niche

Am I missing something with Gligar? How can it manage to be D tier in XD, where it's just as TM hungry in this game, and it starts of far worse than it does in Colosseum?

I'm not feeling Wooper being A tier. It's a rare PokeSpot Pokemon, and with the lack of HMs, it has to rely on Water Gun for Water STAB, unless you want to use the Water Pulse TM, and I can think of other Pokemon that would apperciate it more. I think B tier is a better placement.

I feel Elekid could warrant an A tier placement. Even though the investment is pretty strange for a Pokemon, in that you need to purify another Pokemon for it, it does have some great aspects to it, and I can see it being worth the investment. Togepi doesn't take all that much time to purify if you (and should at that point) have a good Chamber running, and Elekid because being a traded Pokemon levels up quick, especially since in XD you're not fighting NFEs for the majority of the game. Even though it comes at level 20 I was easily able to get it to match my levels by attaching the EXP share and going through the Snagem Hideout, (it got to level 30 just before Gonzap) and then it started to exceed the levels of my party by 2-3 when going through Cipher Key Lair. The coverage on it is also insane, being able to hit nearly every Pokemon in the game for super effective damage, giving it good value in all of the major battles it can participate in.

Oh and Fireburn, you may want to attach this link to your "resources" section: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1l66_53jv0Sr8IlUDpmmzJ4if4dr8gcnPNfASsML4UvI/edit#gid=0
 

Karxrida

Corruption of Shadows
is a Community Contributor Alumnus
Electabuzz isn't too much bulkier than Swellow (65/57/85 vs. 60/60/50), but I do agree with a rise to E. It's fast enough to use Shadow Half and it throws out decently strong Shadow Storms for normies.

Wooper not having good Water STAB is definitely annoying, but that's not why you use it. You use it because it gets Earthquake and has good physical bulk. Regardless, I agree with a drop to B since Poké Spots are totally out of your control.

I'm not sure if Elekid should rise to A. The investment of purifying Togepi is annoying enough to hold it down despite its awesome coverage.
 

Fireburn

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Made a few changes:

Lugia demoted to F tier
Electabuzz promoted to E tier
Gligar demoted to E tier

These should be rather straightforward changes.

Going to dispute dropping Wooper a bit, I can see where the availability is an issue due to the randomness of Poke Spots but the odds to get one aren't THAT terrible (15% chance to find one, though if you're really unlucky this can admittedly take awhile) and I think its contributions through the game make up for it. With the exceptions of Miror B (obviously) and Greevil (three birds + egg are annoying), Quagsire is a solid performer in most major battles in the game, boasting a relatively early join time, a quick evolution with great typing, good bulk, and a solid array of moves (Mud Shot and Water Pulse backed by Blizzard/Hyper Beam from Realgam Tower) to tide it over until it gets STAB Earthquake which makes very strong through Citadark Isle. I'd go so far as to say it's the best Water-type in the game, STAB EQ more than makes up for the lack of Surf. It's probably a borderline A/B mon but I'd lean A just because it's a strong choice once you do get your hands on it.

Not really sure about Elekid - having to purify Togepi to get it is kind of a pain but a well-stocked Purify Chamber or buying Scents should make that tolerable. You do have to baby it in Snagem Hideout w/ EXP Share to get it to evolve at a reasonable point (cuts into other Pokemon's EXP a lot) but that coverage really is just so good...also kind of borderline on this one, I don't mind keeping it at B but I also don't mind bumping it to A.
 
Lets take the look at the major battles that Wooper/Quagsire can take part in
Exol (I'm just gonna count him as one because he's the last character fought in ONBS): a good matchup. Could potentially have Amnesia, but is also pretty slow so it can succumb to flinchhax
Snattle: Great matchup if it has water absorb
Miror B 2: nah
Gonzap: Interesting matchup but it's 50/50. Electrode cumbles, Nuzleaf doesn't have a grass move and Whiscash can't do much if it has water absorb, but Vileplume slaps it, and Skarmory more or less walls it unless you teach it Water Pulse
Gorigan: pretty well since EQ doesn't damage it much and it can use those turns to use Amnesia
Lovrina 2: Walls Gorebyss but doesn't like going against Gardevoir or Roselia. Both her shadows are immune to ground moves
Snattle 2: can be a good matchup, but can also struggle against his shadows as Solrock is immune to EQ and Starmie can hit Quag on its weaker defensive side
Ardos: I personally don't like this matchup. It walls Kingdra if it has Water Absorb, Alakazam can hit it really hard, and Heracross can't do much, but it can't do much back either. Shadow Swellow is immune to EQ, you're trying not to hit Electabuzz with EQ since you're trying to catch it, and Shadow End from Snorlax hurts.
Gorigan 2: basically the same as 1
Eldes: Bad. Both of his normal Pokemon are immune to EQ which means you have to rely on the inaccurate Blizzard, if you used your Ice Beam TM on something else. Salamence is immune to EQ, Lapras and Marowak can tank the EQ.
Greevil: lol

You're right that Quagsire does have mostly good matchups, but it's bad matchups are really bad, and I feel you're overrating Wooper's/Quagsire's overall usefulness to the luck it requires to obtain. Compared to the Quagsire that you get through Colosseum, even though the encounter is optional, it's also much simpler to access than hoping the PokeSpot gives you the right Pokemon. The PokeSpot Wooper also can range from being level 11-21 so on top of it being a 15% chance to encounter, you also have to hope it comes at a decent enough level to not have to baby sit until it evolves.

Wooper's biggest weakness is that you don't really have much control over whether you meet it or not, unlike most of the Pokemon in the game as they will be encountered. Earthquake in XD for Quagsire also comes round much later than it does for Colosseum. Level 42 for Quagsire in XD is probably gonna be more than halfway through Citadark Isle (maybe even close to the end) where as in Colosseum, 42 is either around the Subway portion, or the Shadow Pokemon Lab, and you pretty much got an entire area or two left to traverse in the game.
 
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Speaking of which, let me nominate a missing Pokemon

Roselia: D
It has good utility moves in Grasswhistle (which can have its accuracy boosted by using the call feature), leech seed and sweet kiss, and has some surprisingly good matchups and stats following its capture, but due to its weak defense stat (and most shadow moves hitting on the physical side) and awful offensive movepool, it's usefulness is not for very long.
 
I think Vap is good enough for A. It's very bulky (good for something with Helping Hand), decently strong even if it's not using Helping Hand, and naturally gets Ice coverage (even if it's kind of late). While there are obviously some STAB issues since you're stuck with Water Gun until Hydro Pump, you can get the Water Pulse TM rather painlessly with a minor detour to Mt. Battle (it's a free prize for beating 20 battles).
B---->A
I would like to echo this. I would have posted earlier but I was quite intimidated based on your Nominating restrictions and thus pussied out on posting.


During my multiple playthroughs of XD I chose Vaporeon for almost every single one because it was a really solid Pokemon to use. Both early game and later on as well. I found it to have fantastic stats and while it does have a shallow movepool outside of Hydro Pump, Ice Beam, and potentially Bite. I believe that this is over shadowed by its great stats and fantastic capabilities as a doubles partner. Furthermore it finds itself pairing well with a lot of Pokemon early on such as Houndour, Mareep, and Makuhita. I hope this helped.

EDIT: Sorry m8s my bad
 
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B---->A
I would like to echo this. I would have posted earlier but I was quite intimidated based on your Nominating restrictions and thus pussied out on posting.


During my multiple playthroughs of XD I chose Vaporeon for almost every single one because it was a really solid Pokemon to use. Both early game and later on as well. I found it to have fantastic stats and while it does have a shallow movepool outside of Surf, Ice Beam, and Muddy Water I believe that this is over shadowed by its great stats and fantastic capabilities as a doubles partner. Furthermore it finds itself pairing well with a lot of Pokemon early on such as Houndour, Mareep, and Makuhita. I hope this helped
I may be missing something, but Vap doesn't get Surf (as has been mentioned already in a couple posts) or Muddy Water (Vap doesn't learn Muddy Water until Gen 4). I already said some stuff about Vaporeon, but I'll add a couple more. It really is useful as a doubles partner, but that isn't to say B is a bad spot for it. B tier still has useful pokemon in them, they just aren't the tip top of what's available in XD.

(Also about its bulk: Colosseum's AI seems to have this weird tendency to just ignore bulky pokemon unless they are the last pokemon remaining or they have a super effective attack; I haven't gone back and tested this in XD, but if that's the case in XD as well, maybe that would be Vaporeon's lone claim to A- sit around and throw out constant utility moves? Tho I'd still argue for B)
 

Darkmalice

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(Also about its bulk: Colosseum's AI seems to have this weird tendency to just ignore bulky pokemon unless they are the last pokemon remaining or they have a super effective attack; I haven't gone back and tested this in XD, but if that's the case in XD as well, maybe that would be Vaporeon's lone claim to A- sit around and throw out constant utility moves? Tho I'd still argue for B)
Sorta related to this. Against Greevil, I found he had a tendency to target the Shadow Pokemon instead of the normal Pokemon. This most notably occurred when I used Shadow Salamence - he kept on targetting it instead of its partner. I kept on leading Shadow Salamence and purified Starmie. This would debunk your theory, as Starmie is less bulky than Salamence. It also worked when using Shadow Lugia instead of Salamence.

I could see this on the reasoning that Lugia doesn't get access to any normal attacks so it can't really deal damage, whereas other potential Shadow tanks (Lapras, Salamence, Marowak) can be partially purified to regain normal attacks to actually damage Greevil's Pokemon. This was thus make Lugia less useful than the other E Rank Shadow tanks and could justify a drop.
By this logic, I would also move Starmie up to E Rank from F Rank. When purified, it gains Waterfall and Ice Beam. This has more battles than Lapras / Salamence / Marowak as it's gained earlier (against Snattle in Citadark Isle). It's useful against both Eldes (Waterfall for Marowak, Ice Beam for mence) and Greevil (Waterfall for Rhydon and Moltres, Ice Beam for Exeggutor and Zapdos).

Considering this is an efficient run, you'll need to use scents to purify it to, efficiently, get Waterfall and Ice Beam. But that applies even more strongly to Lapras, Salamence, and Marowak, since you get them in the battle right before Shadow Lugia, and they only gain a non-Shadow attacking move in their fourth slot (they need to be mostly purified). I'll still keep them in E since they have the advantage of getting these moves without being purified, letting them tank Shadow Moves whilst still dealing respectable damage.

I would move Solrock down from E rank to F rank though. You get it in the same battle as Starmie, takes just as long to purify, but it only gains one attacking move upon purification, and that's Psychic which lacks notable targets. It is less useful offensively than Starmie. It does have the bonus of taking less damage from some Pokemon like Snorlax, Swellow, and Dugtrio, and Sunny Day to weaken some opposing Pokemon, but I rather use a Shadow Pokemon with a non-Shadow attacking move to tank the hits since it'll be both taking less damage and dealing more damage than a purified Solrock.
 
(Also about its bulk: Colosseum's AI seems to have this weird tendency to just ignore bulky pokemon unless they are the last pokemon remaining or they have a super effective attack; I haven't gone back and tested this in XD, but if that's the case in XD as well, maybe that would be Vaporeon's lone claim to A- sit around and throw out constant utility moves? Tho I'd still argue for B)
I seem to have the opposite effect. The AI, for me at least, seems to prioritize the overall bulkier Pokemon than the frailer Mon. I used a Forretress in a playthrough, and the AI seemed to really hate Forretress, as they would attack it with resist moves, even though I had a partner who could be hit hard by the moves Forretress resisted.
In another situation, I had a Gardevoir and an Usaring out on the field against a Shadow Hitmonchan. It used Shadow Down on both. Even though Gardevoir could have clearly been OHKO'd, it kept attacking the Ursaring.
This doesn't seem to apply to boss AI though as they simply attacked who they could hit for super effective damage.
 
Replayed this not too long ago, most of the placement looks good. People underestimate in every gen 2/3 game just how shitty quagsire stats are.

Tangela should go up one tier, in a previous playthrough it was the mvp of the entire endgame/citadark isle period - as a chlorophyll sunnybeamer it more than carried it's own weight and was even more impactful by being paired up with Flareon (or houndoom in a different team) whose fire blast became an absolute nuke. Very little could stand up to both under Sun and this end game power/utility is, imo, more reflective of D than E
 
Replayed this not too long ago, most of the placement looks good. People underestimate in every gen 2/3 game just how shitty quagsire stats are.

Tangela should go up one tier, in a previous playthrough it was the mvp of the entire endgame/citadark isle period - as a chlorophyll sunnybeamer it more than carried it's own weight and was even more impactful by being paired up with Flareon (or houndoom in a different team) whose fire blast became an absolute nuke. Very little could stand up to both under Sun and this end game power/utility is, imo, more reflective of D than E
I do like that you gave some good reasons by talking about it's synergy with Fire types, and it comes with Sunny Day on its own, and it also does come at a point where one could reliably use it all throughout Citadark Isle. I wish I could support you, but I haven't actually used a Tangela in a playthrough, so all I'm doing right now is theorycrafting.

Tangla does have some good points like a good defense stat, reliable recovery, sleep utility, and a powerful STAB, but that STAB is Grass after all, it's offensive movepool is pretty awful, that sp. defense stat is trash, especially when more powerful special Shadow moves start coming into play, and the sleep utility does come at a cost of 1000 Pokecoupons. Overall, through my theorycrafting and analysis, Tangela can do very well, but needs to have a team built around its inclusion, as it can't really just be slapped on to any team.

But like I said, I'm only theorycrafting right now, but if more people express their (positive) opinion on Tangela, I don't see why it couldn't bump up to D.

In other news, Trapinch is garbage. On top of its rarity, its literally the slowest 2nd slowest Pokemon you can use in the game, it's stats are terrible (besides it's attack) and has to mostly rely on its special attack, and it's movepool is terrible until it becomes a Flygon, which in most cases, won't happen until maybe 4 battles until the end. Yeah, you could teach it Earthquake when you get it from Cipher Key Lair, but honestly, I'd teach EQ to Sandslash or Donphan as they would get way more mileage from it than Trapinch could at that point. Until then, you are babysitting a slow, frail, exp sink that is nowhere near the investment put into it. At least in Colosseum, Vibrava only had two levels until it became a Flygon, and you could use it for the entire last area of the game.
Honestly, Trapinch's only viable use is to be traded for the Meditite you can get from Duking.
 
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Karxrida

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I'm fine with a Tangela rise. It has good SpA and knows Shadow Rave (read: basically Special Earthquake in this game) before purification, so it puts in work immediately.
 

Fireburn

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Changes:

Wooper dropped to B tier - points against it are fair, honestly this isn't the game for Water-types, lack of Surf is really bad for the early ones
Roselia added to D tier - I used this myself, it's really good in Phenac City with a quick purify but falls off really really fast afterward
Solrock dropped to F tier
Starmie rose to E tier
Tangela rose to D tier - Fire mons are great in this game and Tangela has solid synergy with them out of the box
Trapinch dropped to F tier - lbr you're not getting Flygon until Eldes/Greevil and this mon is gutter trash until then

Not sure yet on promoting Zangoose to A.

The discussion has been good so far, keep it up!
 

Karxrida

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Why is Natu in B? The dead period before the Psychic TM in Snagem Hideout seems godawful on paper.

Really iffy on Growlithe in B. Intimidate and Flamethrower (on purification) are awesome, but its stats are kind of awkward for when you get it.
 

Fireburn

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Why is Natu in B? The dead period before the Psychic TM in Snagem Hideout seems godawful on paper.
The dead period of Natu's snag partway through Phenac City to Snagem Hideout is pretty short and Aerial Ace can carry it until then since there are a fair few Grass mons in Snagem Hideout. Xatu itself has decent enough speed/offenses and also packs a rareish Ground immunity which is rather useful for your Ursaring/Quagsire/w.e you have spamming Earthquake lategame.

Really iffy on Growlithe in B. Intimidate and Flamethrower (on purification) are awesome, but its stats are kind of awkward for when you get it.
You can pretty much evolve Growlithe as soon as its purified and while it'll be a touch underleveled still Arcanine has great stats, solid offense with Flamethrower/tutored Body Slam, and Intimidate + Charm to debuff tough enemies. It pulls its weight really well post purification and purifying in this game doesn't take too long thanks to scents + purify chamber to speed up the process.
 

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